All About Change - Becky Margiotta - Housing 100,000 Houseless

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Becky Margiotta is an author, change-maker, leader, veteran, and host of the Unleashing Social Change Podcast. Becky is also the co-founder and owner of The Billions Institute which has trained thousands of leaders from every corner of the globe and from every sector of social change in designing and leading large-scale change. The 100,000 Homes Campaign for Community Solutions, where Becky served as director,  mobilized 186 cities to permanently house more than 100,000 people who had previously been living on their streets in just under four years. Most recently, Becky authored Impact with Integrity: Repairing the World Without Breaking Yourself, a call to action for change makers that provides a step-by-step framework for doing the inner work that is necessary for advancing social change.  In this conversation with Jay, she talks about life in the military under Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, recounts her incredible career in social activism, and explains why if you want to change the world, the most important work you should be doing is on yourself.  Please find a transcription of this episode: https://allaboutchangepodcast.com/podcast-episode/becky-margiotta/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Thousands of people who are trying to lead large-scale social change in the world, I've seen the same thing in them. They've got great strategies. They've got plenty of resources. They get in their own way. Hi, I'm Jay Rudiman, and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people's lives. This is all wrong. I say put mental health first because if you don't... This generation of America has already had enough. I stand before you not as an expert, but as a concerned citizen. Today on our show, Becky Margiata.

The problem was never the strategy or the tactics or lack of resources. I mean, certainly those were problems, but the real problem underneath it was my own limitations as a leader. Becky Margiatta is an author, changemaker, inspirational leader, veteran, and an outspoken member of the LBGTQIA community. My experiences were of like kind of mild, joking homophobia. Barry Winchell's was of being bludgeoned to death. A graduate of West Point, she served for nine years as an officer in the U.S. Army during the don't ask, don't tell period. She thought it was working fine for her, but then she went to see a play called Another American Asking and Telling. A person who I knew had left his phone number in the bathroom

in Iron Horse Park for a good time called Steve and left a number. The CID people called this number and set up a date with him. And as soon as they were together, he was arrested for making a move on the CID agent. As an agreement not to be court-martialed or have it proceed any further, he agreed to turn in other people that he knew were gay. He turned in 12 of us. One of the people committed suicide. I was court-martialed. I believe there was another court-martial, and the rest of the people were dishonorably discharged. I was just sobbing at the end of, I can't be complicit in this another day.

The narrative that there's something wrong with being gay is enabling this kind of violence. And I put in my resignation the next day. Since then, she's reinvented herself as an activist and mentor, training thousands of people around the world on how to design and lead large-scale social change. I've seen so many leaders be held back, and with a little bit of help and tweaking in that, the difference is completely different out in the world. Becky, thank you so much for joining me today as my guest on All About Change. It's a pleasure to meet you.

Likewise. Thank you for having me, Jay. So, Becky, I'd like to bring you back to the beginning because your story is an amazing story. West Point. How did you decide to go to West Point, which is not the easiest place to go to school, and then end up serving for nine years in the military? So I was the oldest of seven kids, and my parents said, you have to go to college, and we don't really have any money saved for you to do it, but you have to go. So good luck. West Point is a full scholarship. There are a few other scholarships I had too, but I was very drawn to West Point because of, in some ways, the mystique, but also that I thought it would just be a really hard challenge. It was it. And just holistically, you know, with the athletics and the leadership development, the academics,

and got in early admission, and that was it. This is this is where I'm going to go now did not really fully understand what it would mean to be an officer in the army or any of those things and learned that while while I was at West Point and didn't come from a particularly like Marshall family in any way, right? Like my grandfather had been drafted, but, but, but not a long history of, of military service in my family. So it's somewhat of a shock, but it was a great education. And I met for the most part, really great people and, um, and really wanted to be of service. The value, the ethos of being of service is absolutely nurtured and, and developed while you're there. And when I got out into the army and then had to pay back my college education,

I was stationed on Oahu as a 23 year old-old, and it just ruined me for life. And then the people that I met were still to this day some of the best people I've ever met in my life, and I wanted to stay. There's really two reasons that I ultimately left. I was the fourth woman ever to serve in the Special Operations Unit, Special Mission Unit, the first woman to command in the Special Operations Signal Battalion. So I was really succeeding in that world, but I didn't want to lie about being gay anymore. And it was before the end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. It was weird, though. I really felt like I belonged. And I got out on National Coming Out Day and then called all my friends who I had served

with. And I was like, this is like before email was even big. I was like, hey, I just want to let you know that I was gay. And all but one person was like, oh, we knew that. But I couldn't tolerate lying about that anymore. At West Point, it was especially difficult. And there were rumors about me and I was investigated. And I even lied about being gay to not have to get kicked out.

I didn't have any plan B at all, which totally violates the honor code there. Although in retrospect, I just really think it was unjust that they even asked, right? That that really was an invasion of my privacy. But that was incredibly difficult and a difficult coming of age time in those ways. But then once I got out into the army, people were definitely kind of more chill, more cool,

kind of already doing don't ask, don't tell before it was a thing. And even in these really elite units, one day, I'll never forget this. I was a company commander. I was 27 years old. I had 100 soldiers. We deployed to 18 countries in 18 months, like all over the world, supporting special operations on peacekeeping, demining missions, things like that. operations on peacekeeping, demining missions, things like that. And my lieutenant came up to me before morning PT and said, Hey, Captain Canis, I want to ask you something. And that's my maiden name is Canis. And I was like, Yeah, what's up? And he said, Are you gay? And in my mind,

immediately, I was like, I could get kicked out if I answer this honestly. And also, it's very likely that something could happen. And I would have to ask Eric to put his life at risk based on an order I was giving him. And it's so important that he trusts me for my leadership to have legitimacy with him. So in a split second, I made the choice and decided to err on being honest with him that it mattered more to me that he'd be able to trust me as his leader. So then I was like, yeah, what about it? And he was like, I thought so. There's this really cute girl I want to introduce you to. And so I had a lot of experiences like that, too, where, and the other thing was that because it was,

I guess, closeted or taboo the people who were gay kind of we found each other and there was a real sense of community in that that I don't find as much in the civilian world because it's not as necessary. Before I ran for president this issue was already upon us. Some of the members of the military returning from the Gulf War announced their homosexuality in order to protest the ban. It was about four or five years after I had entered in the military environment at all that Don't Ask, Don't Tell became the law of the land, basically, or the law of the military. And I did find an easing. I felt a little bit less nervous.

I was like, OK, I just need to not tell. You know, that's all I need to do. But then I felt like I don't get to be myself, but I can put up with that. I don't put up with that anymore, but I could put up with that then. And there was just really, for the most part, I think I would describe it as like quasi lighthearted teasing and homophobia. And I don't even know if you can have lighthearted homophobia, right? It certainly wasn't rainbows and unicorns and fun or enlivening or like I felt like I could bring my whole self. There was an oppression to it of looking over

your shoulder. But I think also most of the people in the military really didn't care about knowing about that, about somebody in a way that would be negative, you know? I stated then what I still believe, that I thought there ought to be a presumption that people who wish to do so should be able to serve their country. And I understand that you still have some close mentors and friends that you did serve with in the military. Friends for life, absolutely, yes.

So tell me about, I know you talked about that you went to see a play called Another American Asking and Telling. while I was in the assessment and selection for the special mission unit. There was such violence also happening, right? And so this one man play, he played Margaret Karamameyer. He played Barry Winchell's mom. He played, you know, he played all these people. And I was just sobbing at the end of, I can't, I can't be, I can't be complicit in this another day. The narrative that there's something wrong with being gay is enabling this kind of violence.

And I put in my resignation the next day. Wow. Yeah. There's no turning back. Wow. And it was very difficult. I actually went to therapy too, because it was such a difficult emotional process for me because that had been my family.

That had been my only thing I had known since turning 18 and leaving my family until 30. And I felt like I was abandoning in some ways, like my grownup family, and that it was wrong to quit. So I needed to work through that, but I did. I can imagine what a difficult experience that was. Do you think that that was the beginning of your development into an activist? I wouldn't say it comes naturally to me. I feel like I'm much more the community builder aspect of activism versus the kind of the fighting and the part of activism. I got very involved with my wife here in our local community in 2020 when George Floyd was murdered by the police to support the Black Lives Matter ethos.

It's not a Black Lives Matter chapter, but it does come naturally to my wife. It does not come as naturally to me. I think I'm more behind the scenes, build the connective tissue and bonds so that people are willing to do those things versus being out in the front of any of that. Right. Well, it takes all kinds. Giving apartments to homeless people who've been on the streets for years before they've received treatment for drug or alcohol problems or mental illness may not sound like a wise idea, but that's what's being done in cities across America in an approach that targets those who've been homeless the longest and are believed to be at greatest risk of dying, especially with all of this cold weather. There are people who once might have been viewed as unreachable, but cities and counties affiliated with a movement

known as the 100,000 Homes Campaign have so far managed to get 80,000 of them off the streets. I want to talk about homelessness because you had a lot of success in the 100,000 homes campaign. And it'd be great if you could talk us through that and, you know, what were you doing and how were you able to take homeless people off the street and get them permanently housed, not just in New York, but in 186 cities across America? When Roseanne Haggerty hired me, my job was to reduce street homelessness by two-thirds in three years in Times Square. And there were 30 other nonprofit organizations who served the homeless population of that area in one way or another,

but none of them had as their charter or their purpose to resolve people's homelessness. It was to more palliative care, to make it more comfortable, to give them socks or services or try to get them into a shelter. And there was just once this group of people on the streets who didn't want any of that. And, and I was just learning, I was just out of the army. And so I was like, I went out with these 30 other organizations on street outreach, and I'd watch them walk past somebody and just ignore them who was clearly had been out there forever. And I, and with a total beginner's mind, I'd say, Hey, why'd you walk? Why, why'd you walk past that guy? Not critical or anything. And they say, ah, he doesn't want

anything. He's been out here forever, you know? And they just kind of given up on that person. And what, what we found was if we wanted to make any dent in street homelessness, we had to go right back to that person and say, I know you don't want socks. I know you don't want shelter. What do you want? And because my success is tied up in you getting off, getting a home or getting, you know, not being here, you know, and across the board, everybody that we went to with that humility and that curiosity was like, I want my own place to live. And the truth of the matter is the way that the system was set up then was if that, if you wanted that, you had to go through the formal shelter system of New York city and they didn't want to go to the shelter system. They had gotten beaten up, their stuff got stolen. There was a curfew. They

couldn't be with their lady friends, you know, they had reasons for not going into shelter, but that didn't mean they didn't want a home. And all we really did, although it took years, was basically find a way to do the exact same bureaucratic stuff that was done if you had gone into the shelter system with people who had opted out of the shelter system. So that was the innovation, using motivational interviewing, using good street outreach tactics. And we were able to reduce the street homeless population by 87% in four years. And then other cities wanted to know how we did it. And so we came up with ways to kind of teach our techniques. Before you know it, there was maybe 20 cities around the country adapting our ways of doing street outreach and some of our tools and tactics.

And then from there, we said, well, what if we could do something even bigger? What if collectively we could all help 100,000 people move off the streets and into housing for good? We built this campaign with the first 20 cities from scratch. And it was like an us. It was always an us. It was never me or Community Solutions. It was always an us. Right. So who is providing the housing? The municipalities are providing the homes. Is that correct? Basically, taxpayers.

Okay. So as taxpayers, we are funding a large number of subsidized housing options from public housing in those big high rises that you see in New York City to Section VIII vouchers to all kinds of other specialized things like some just for veterans or things like that. But they're paid for by taxpayers. And there's not enough, but people who have been experiencing homelessness on the streets for a long time, 100% eligible for those vouchers, exactly who those vouchers were designed for, quite frankly, but didn't have the, probably the capability or the wherewithal or the knowledge to navigate these really complex bureaucracies,

which by the way, to get in line for a housing voucher, you need an address, you know? And so, right, like, so there's all these incongruities built into the systems and structures. We just created a way for, to support people in navigating that despite not having an address or these other things. But these units exist. And so their subsidized housing, their vouchers, sometimes it's a rite of passage where people turn a certain age and they go register for their subsidized housing and wait 15 years. And so there's not enough, there's structural major systemic problems, but they do exist. And people, for the most part, ended up in any old apartment where the landlord would accept Section 8, and then you bring in the social

workers and help them get connected with the services that'll help them resolve the issues that made them homeless in the first place, besides the structural issues. That's amazing. Let me talk to you about the Billions Institute, and maybe you could talk a little bit about how you went about founding it and what are you trying to do with this organization? Here's the origin story of the Billions Institute is in the final weeks of the 100,000 Homes campaign, I got an email from the TED Prize people. And they said, Becky, you're a finalist for the TED Prize. And if you win, you'll get a million dollars to make your wish for the world come true. We need you to submit 50 words or less. What's your wish

for the world? Don't put this all over social media, but by all means, call your friends and bounce the ideas off them and let us know your wish by next Tuesday. I was convinced this was a prank that my staff was pulling on me. It was a big practical joke, but it turns out it was real. So I called a couple of people, people I really trusted. And one of the people I called was Joe McCannon. Now, Joe McCannon had run the 100,000 Lives campaign for the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, Don Berwick, based in Cambridge, Lives campaign for the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, Don Berwick, based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And he had mentored and coached me on how to design and lead the 100,000 homes campaign. So we had been friends for five or six years. And he was one of my first phone calls. And I was like, hey, man, you know, I'm a finalist for this TED Prize. And I know they're

going to want me to do something kind of grandiose around homelessness, but I'm really feeling drawn to train people how to do large scale change more broadly on human trafficking, climate change, gun violence, whatever the case may be. And Joe was like, yeah, they're definitely going to want you to do something on homelessness. And I was like, ah, okay. And so, and he was like, well, I have some ideas. And I was like, well, what are your ideas? He goes, well, I want, I want to make a country that solves some of the world's biggest problems. And I'm like, well, I have some ideas. And I was like, what are your ideas? He goes, well, I want to make a country that solves some of the world's biggest problems. And I'm like, that's cool. So we both had this just really authentic conversation about our dreams. And I wanted to train people how to do social change.

He wanted to start a country. And he helped me kind of craft something that would be acceptable to the TED prize people. That wasn't either of our dreams really. Fast forward, did not get the Ted prize, but literally the next day I called Joe and I said, Hey, I just don't even really care about the Ted prize. Do you want to go into business together? And he was like, I was thinking the same thing. And he had for years been kind of working on this idea of the billions Institute, large scale change. And he said, my, my only criteria is it can't just be any social change. It has to be large scale

social change. And I was like, I'm in, let's do this. And so in 2015, we started that up and started training people. We did a lot of consulting at the time too. And, um, and he started, started up that country. So, um, and we've been busy ever ever since. I did buy him out a couple years subsequent to that in a very friendly way. We still talk on the phone like once a month, like family, because he wanted to pursue other things more wholeheartedly. He's back in the government now working at HHS at a real high level. But it was just really two friends saying like, I think we could make a difference here. You want to go into business together. And I'm so grateful. It's been seven

years now. I mean, very few businesses, very few small businesses survive that long, especially through a global pandemic. And I'm really lucky that I get to do what I do. That's awesome. That's awesome. So let me jump right in and talk about your book, which is having a big impact, and it is called Impact with Integrity, How to Repair the World Without Breaking Yourself. What I took away from the book is that if you're seeking to be involved in social change and be a good leader, you really have to do the inner work. Yes. Well, 100%, that's what the book is about. And it's through both my own lived experience as leading a large scale change initiative, the 100,000 Homes campaign, that the problem was never the strategy or the tactics or lack of resources. I mean,

certainly those were problems, but the real problem underneath it was my own limitations as a leader. When I would get stuck and have inner work to do as a leader, that would actually hold back the whole effort and the whole campaign. But then in the Billions Institute, as I've been training and coaching thousands of people who are trying to lead large scale social change in the world, I've seen the same thing in them. They've got great strategies. They've got plenty of resources. They get in their own way from limiting beliefs, imposter syndrome, inner work that needs to be done, not knowing how to make clear agreements, not knowing what they really want, not knowing how to ask for that, not knowing what their genius is. All these things that

I talk about in the book are the same things that I've seen so many leaders be held back. And with a little bit of help and tweaking in that, the difference is completely different out in the world. So essentially people have a good idea and they're moving forward, but there's something that's hindering them and they don't quite get it. So when you approach someone, how do you do this in a way that doesn't immediately turn them off, but says, aha, yes, I should be maybe paying attention to the way I'm thinking about things and I'm operating. Well, if someone comes to me for coaching, they came to me.

So I don't have to worry about turning them off in that case. But in our trainings, we've been training people since 2015, thousands of people from all over the world on how to design and lead large scale change. And I found I kind of have to sneak it in at the end, that I have to spend a couple of days building rapport with people that, yes, we're going to take care of the strategy. Yes, we're going to take care of the tactics. You're going to lead here with like a good offense and a good defense and really having a good plan in place. And then I kind of sneak in at the end, by the way, the thing that's going to make this not work might be you. And I find by that point, people are more warmed up to that

possibility. But we used to do it at the very beginning. And it was by that point, people are more warmed up to that possibility. But we used to do it at the very beginning. And it was really hard for people to start with that. So it does require some gentle introduction. And maybe you could talk about some of your own experiences. What were your own epiphanies that you're like, oh, you know, I'm out there working and I'm trying to change the world and I'm having some success, but I think there's something that I could work on. Most clear in my mind is when I was the director of the 100,000 Homes campaign. There were all kinds of things going on behind the scenes that weren't known or public necessarily, but that really stressed me out and really kept me awake at night or things I would come home from work and want to process

with my partner of like, I don't know what to do about this situation. And the type of concrete things they were having really prominent leaders in our sector, criticize our work. And I took it personally for weeks, I would be like, I can't believe they said that and be really upset. Or having people actively try to undermine our work and then trying to figure out like how to cut them off at the pass or like how to outmaneuver them. And it was just wasted energy or, and then even within my own organization, I worked for this amazing, amazing, brilliant person, but I had my own issues to work through as a follower in that case, not just as a leader within

being afraid that, you know, I wouldn't get credit for what I was doing or being afraid that I would get scapegoated if the program didn't succeed. The energy that I spent trying to manage my own inner dialogue and monologue around these things that somebody else might not worry about at all. For example, those just happened to be the things that I was worried about. Every minute that I spent kind of trying to figure out how to be sort of safe and secure and get approval needs met in that context was a minute that I wasn't spending actually trying to solve homelessness.

And the goal for me is that we're all human. We're all going to bring our humanity and our other needs in addition to making a dent in the universe to the work that we do. But my hope is that instead of that, taking all of your mental bandwidth for two weeks or two days or two hours, that it could take 20 minutes, two minutes. So is this just human nature? I mean, is this in the world of non-profit, which is a little bit surprising, but I suppose it's in any industry, that there's all this competition or perceived competition and that people get all worked up about it? Do you find that to be true? And how did you actually come to the epiphany that like, hey, there's a way to get around this? Yeah. So I think the nonprofit sector is competitive. There are scarce resources and hierarchies. And so all of those things can tend to not always bring out the best in folks.

Ideally, and it certainly happens that organizations who are within a field can delineate their own areas of responsibility and be complimentary to one another and not compete, but sometimes just the same way in a for-profit. There's competition for grants, competition for resources to be able to do things in the way that you think is the right way to do things. And so that's real. In terms of how I reckoned with that, first of all, I learned so much from my boss, from Roseanne Haggerty. We learned and grew together and she mentored and taught me a lot. And the second is I learned a lot from Dr. Kathleen Hendricks, who wrote the foreword

to my book. And I did a two-year apprenticeship with her that was really life-changing in terms of being able to have these skills of body intelligence, humility, curiosity, facing what's really happening, taking responsibility, taking 100% responsibility for all my choices and actions, making clear agreements. So I was in this almost like cauldron of in this apprenticeship, this two-year cauldron where everyone else who was participating in this apprenticeship, this two-year cauldron where everyone else who was participating in this was also practicing developing those skills. I saw a video of you in a class that was being given at Stanford University, and you did something really powerful, which you exhibited a technique

that you call Blurt, Breathe, and Move. Can you talk about that technique? Yeah, I just kind of made that up, certainly inspired by my apprenticeship with Katie Hendricks. When I do executive coaching with folks, sometimes I start to notice that they're kind of going around and not getting to really to the crux of whatever it is that's keeping them up at night. it is that's keeping them up at night. And, and because we have so much socialization to package things and be professional and be deferential in some cases and all these things. So what I'll do is I'll say, Hey, listen, let's just be unenlightened. Let's just be inappropriate. Let's just use language we're not supposed to use. Let's do what we got to do. I'm going to set the timer for two minutes. And then you just stream of consciousness, whatever you've been wanting to say, just express. It's almost like starting to unclog the pipes so that the expression can happen. And if people are willing to do that, when I'm coaching them, I'm able to more accurately discern or start to tease out or detect the

underlying emotion and the underlying unconscious commitment of what's actually happening there in the blurting. But if I'm not there coaching you, that can surface for you even like, oh, I didn't realize how upset I was, or I didn't realize how sad I was, or I didn't realize how scared I was. So that's what that blurt piece is. And then the idea is the answer isn't necessarily something rational or thoughtful, right? We can continue down that rabbit hole forever. But really the answer is in returning our own physiology back to a state of where our parasympathetic nervous system is working again. So the breathing and the belly breathing, and then for two minutes, which I also do with my coaching clients is say, if I sense that they're starting to spiral in some way, I'll say, Hey, why don't we set a timer for a minute and just breathe together. And it always

just helps the conversation after that is always better. And then getting up and moving, which activates all kinds of other parts of our brain when literally we're moving our body, especially if we move our bodies in ways that are habitual for us. That starts to kind of dial in something on an embodiment level and then, okay, fresh playing field. Now let's reconnect and go from there. And I found it to be really transformative for myself and so many people. I think it's so important. And I think what really resonated is I'm going through the same thing. You know, I just finished writing a book and I'm always like, you know, oh, who's going to read this book? I have no idea who's going to read this book. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You don't know what impact the book's going to have. I mean, the book could have

an impact after you're gone. It's just your intuition into people who are just sort of like going full steam ahead was really, really, I think, powerful and important. And I would encourage people to pick up the book and to read it because there's so many insights that you have through your life experience that I think people can gain from. Thank you, Jay. That is my intention for the book is whoever is meant to read it and whoever it's meant to help that they find each other. And so far, so good. So Becky, I'm wondering if you could tell us what you mean by the drama triangle. Villain, victim, and hero. And what does that mean?

Essentially, this comes from the field of transactional analysis, that in any human drama, for it to be, even to be good television, there has to be a villain who's perpetrating some harm or some evil, a victim who's just at the effect of the villain, and then a hero who comes in to save the day. And the gist of this is, as you and I go about our day to day, when we're in our essence,

when we're in our parasympathetic nerve system, and we're not activated or triggered in some way, that's good. We have full access to our creativity, our ability to form authentic connections, our wellbeing and our wellness. But invariably, one time a day, 10 times a day, a hundred times a day, something happens that disturbs our nervous system, that kind of a glitch in the matrix, like this is not how it's supposed to be. And at that moment, we're in a very concrete choice point to say, oh, that wasn't what I wanted or that wasn't what – I didn't anticipate that or now I feel scared. We're going to kind of come back to ourselves and be present and be like almost like a – I don't know if you've ever seen like a dog walk into a glass door. Yeah. And then they just – it's shocking to them and they just go,

and they shake it off and then they're fine. But for me, when I have a kind of a psychological equivalent of bumping into a glass door, I don't always shake it off as easily and well as a dog would. I hold onto it in some way. And when I hold onto it, that activates the drama triangle. And I go either into the hero to try to make everything okay and be comfortable or the villain of like, whose fault is this? You know, who's it's, and you can be a self villain too of like, oh my gosh, I'm terrible and unworthy of things or the victim of, I can't believe I was just innocently walking down the hall and this glass door was in my face. And so, and why has this always happened to me?

And when we go into that mindset, that state of being, we lose access to our creativity and our ability to form authentic connections. Because when we're committed to being in that drama triangle space, which does produce adrenaline, It has an immediate benefit for survival, but it is completely detrimental to any sense of thriving and certainly to being able to lead large scale change. But people can spend their whole careers on the drama triangle. Oh, sure. You know, and you'll burn out. Right. And you talk about the reactive against the creative brain. And what does it mean? How do you shift from a reactive brain to a creative brain? And what does it mean? How do you shift from a reactive brain

to a creative brain? Our minds are just constantly in a state of trying to protect us, right? They're trying to keep us safe. They're trying to help us survive. That's what our brain does. But it's not us, right? It's not the core of who we are. It's not our soul. It's not our spirit. It's just, it's a part of our, part of us is just trying to keep us safe. And when we run into something that disturbs us, if we hold onto that and like, that shouldn't have happened, or, oh, now I'm really upset or whatever, that takes us into our reactive brain. The key to that is nothing good happens in our reactive brain. That like, don't try, don't try to be creative. Don't try to solve the problem. That your only job then is to get back into your creative brain. Because when you're in your creative brain, there's no problems to be solved.

There's just possibilities. And then you have choices and agency. When you're feeling scared to ask, what's the perceived threat? Like your body is telling you there's a threat and just be like, okay, what's the threat? You know, let's get curious about it. If you're feeling sad to notice that and say, okay, what's the loss? What have I lost? Let me take a moment and acknowledge that my body's trying to tell me I've lost something. And if you're feeling angry or mad or frustrated, that the question is, what am I getting that I

don't want? Or what am I not getting that I do want? And then, you know, maybe you'll get it, or maybe you won't, but at least you can know, right? Like, okay, this is what's going on. So there's something about just slowing down and listening to what our emotions are trying to tell us, asking ourselves good questions as those make themselves known. And then getting back into that creative space of like, gosh, I was just feeling really angry for a minute there. And like, I realized I'm getting something I don't want. And I can do something about it. I can choose to do something about it. Right. I think that's the game. That's the game of life. And, and I fail at it daily. I stub my toe and I'm mad for 10 minutes, you know,

although some people would say you're mad and then you stub your toe. Right, right. Yeah. You talk about toxic organizational dynamics. I'm wondering if you could define that. How do you address that? Yeah, we have an assessment, a self-assessment on that in the book. And so this came out of our trainings with the Billings Institute.

My co-founder Joe McKinnon and I wrote an article for the Stanford Social Innovation Review called Inside the Command Center. And it's just about contrasting what a really thriving, successful, large-scale change organization team looks like and feels like on a day-to-day basis versus one that's not doing very well. And we articulated some really specific ways of being as a team. And we used to teach those in our school, in our trainings, and have teams do some reflection on do we have any of these kind of toxic dynamics, or which of these more freeing dynamics would more suit us in our large scale change endeavors. And we used to teach that until I read Tema Okun's article on white supremacy culture.

And Tema had worked for decades in the southeast of the United States, primarily, within organizations on anti-racism. And she saw some particular dynamics again and again and again. She was like, well, I know this is actually something I know something about, and I can trace the roots of this to white supremacy culture. And Jay, even though Joe and I didn't even know about Tema's work, I would say there's about 75% overlap between what Joe and I saw and what Tema was naming. And it's things like perfectionism, paternalism, fear of open conflict, transactional goals, transactional relationships, you know, right to comfort, things like that. And she just names it. And so in the book, one of the things that I think is

really important for people who are leading really any organization is you've got to assume that if any dysfunctions of the broader culture are going to infiltrate your organization, it would just be unrealistic to think your organization is going to be like miraculously free of any of the kind of broader ills that are part of a broader society. But then you can face into it and then you can do something about it. As James Baldwin says, you know, nothing can be changed until you face into it. At least you've got to very least do that. And we found in our trainings that, and I'm not by any means an expert in diversity, equity,

inclusion, justice, belonging, and any of those things. I just think it's so essential. We've yet to find a single team that does not have two, three, four, five of those toxic elements front and center, regardless of the racial or ethnic or gender composition of the teams. We've yet to find a team that's not like, oh my God, we totally do this. And that's the thing that's going to keep you from really being able to unleash one another is these really dysfunctional ways of being. I feel like in my work, I feel a lot of what I'm going through is very transactional.

And what I'm looking for is love and connection. I'm in this business to try to make the world a better place. I've dedicated my life to it. I want to meet other good people who are doing that. But I find too much of my time is dealing with people who are very transactional. And it's okay to have goals and say, listen, I want to get to here. But is there a way to get beyond that? Ooh, yes. Oh, this is like the questions that light me up. Yes. So what I'm hearing you say, you're yearning for more meaningful and authentic relationships.

Exactly. Even as expressed in your work in creativity for there to be a base note of love and for transformational relationships or some other way of relating. And so, yes, I think that can totally change not knowing all the details of your situation. I mean, for you just to decide

that that's how you're going to roll, you're going to roll transformational, you know, like I have Jay and I have a transformational change leader. And that, this is what this looks like. And this is what these are the, this is the price of admission to be in my, in my circle. That may mean that some of the relationships around you shift and that could be really uncomfortable. But 100%, 100% that I believe that you deciding I'm not playing transactional anymore. I have a no to these things.

You know, what are your no's to? And I have a yes to this way of being that you could do that. And I'd be so excited for you. That's amazing. Thank you. Becky, you've had such a, or you have such a meaningful life and you've influenced so many people. I want to urge my listeners to, first of all, pick up your book about the integrity, repair

the world without breaking yourself, and to listen to Becky's podcast, Unleashing Social Change podcast, and check out the Billions Institute. You're involved in so many things, and you're really impacting so many people in this world. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you. I'm honored to have you as a guest on All About Change, so thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. The honor's all mine. Thank you, Jay. The honor's all mine. All About Change is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. This show is produced by Yochai Meital, Jackie Schwartz, Mijan Zulu, and Rachel Donner. As always, be sure to come back in two weeks for another inspiring story.

In the meantime, you can go check out all of our previous content live on our feed and linked on our new website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. Lastly, if you enjoy our show, please help us spread the word. Tell a friend or family member or consider writing a review on your favorite podcasting app. I'm Jay Rudiman, and I'll catch you next time on All About Change