All About Change - Katy Sullivan - Breaking Barriers

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Katy Sullivan is an award-winning actress, producer, writer, athlete, bilateral above-the-knee amputee and is the first actress who is an amputee to ever star on Broadway. Raised by parents who encouraged her to try everything and decided to become an actress. After she got her first pair of running prosthetics at 25, she discovered a love of running and became a four-time US Champion. She was among the first bilateral above-the-knee amputees to compete in the Paralympics in ambulatory track when she ran in the London 2012 Paralympic Games. However, she never lost sight of her dream to become an actor. Among her many acting accolades, Katy has recently made history again. she developed and starred as Annie in the hit show “The Cost of Living” - turning her into the first female amputee to star on Broadway.  In conversation with Jay, they discuss inclusivity and diversity in theatre, TV, and film and Katy talks about how living with a disability gave her a higher level of adaptation and how her family helped to teach her to believe that “can’t is just four letter word.” Please find a transcription of this episode: https://allaboutchangepodcast.com/podcast-episode/katy-sullivanSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, before we dive in, I want to tell you about a podcast I've been listening to called Unleashing Social Change. It's hosted by a recent guest and best-selling author, Becky Margiata. Join Becky as she interviews badass social change leaders who share the ins and outs of what they're doing to make the world a better place. This podcast helped me feel more optimistic about the possibility of bringing change and gives practical tips about how to do so. Whether you're a seasoned activist or just figuring out how to make a positive impact, you won't want to miss a single episode of Unleashing Social Change. Okay, for now, on to our episode.

I really had to learn at a very young age how to adapt to a world that was not made for me. Hi, I'm Jay Rudiman, and welcome to All About Change, a podcast showcasing individuals who leverage the hardships that have been thrown at them to better other people's lives. This is all wrong. I say put mental health first because if you don't... This generation of Americans has already had enough. I stand before you not as an expert, but as a concerned citizen.

And today on our show, Katie Sullivan. I always say I had the tremendous fortune to be born to a set of parents that looked at my circumstance as, okay, this is what is. Katie Sullivan is an award-winning TV and stage actress, producer, writer, and para-Olympian. She was born as a bilateral above-the-knee amputee. Her family welcomed her with open arms. In fact, they didn't make a big deal of her condition. Let's move on. Let's move on with things. We got places to go. We got stuff to do. While growing up, her parents encouraged her to try everything, and eventually she fell in love with acting. People who have the experience of being either becoming disabled at a young age

or being born disabled, Our level of adaptation is pretty next level. Katie never considered herself an athlete, but after she got her first pair of running prosthetics at age 25, she discovered that she loved to run. Almost by accident, she found herself on a path to becoming a four-time U.S. champion and was among the first bilateral above-the-knee amputee to compete in the Paralympics during the London 2012 Paralympic Games. But despite her successful sports career, she never lost sight of her dream to become an actor. Among her many acting accolades, Katie has recently made history again.

She developed and starred as Annie in the hit show The Cost of Living, turning her into the first amputee to star on Broadway. I'm humbled and it's amazing and we need more of this please but on the other side it's like it's 2022. Like there's never been an actress who's an amputee on Broadway. Like why is that? Katie, welcome to All About Change. I'm real excited to have you as my guest today. And we have so much to talk about. Same, likewise. It's exciting. You were born without the bottom half of your legs. And can you just tell the story, as you know it, from your parents of how they reacted once you were born. That's from my perspective.

I was there, but I wasn't completely there, if you know. But no, my mom had a normal pregnancy. There was nothing to indicate that anything was different about me or what was going on with me. I have three older siblings and all of them were born totally normal, you know, physically normal. So there was no reason for her to be concerned or worried and no one in our family, none of this had happened to anybody in our history. And it was a little bit before they did ultrasounds on every baby. So it was when she was in labor and she was having a C-section because she had had previous C-sections. She heard one of the nurses go, oh my God.

And they were like, we're just going to give you some oxygen. So they put oxygen, I'm using air quotes, and they basically like knocked her out. And it was when she woke up in recovery that my dad was there and I was not. And she was like, what's going on? Where's the baby? And my dad, who was a physician, he said, she's healthy. She's, she's okay. She was just born without the lower halves of her legs. And she just was sort of like, bring me my kid. Like, what is wrong with you? Like, where's the baby? Where is she? And so I really, I always say I had the tremendous fortune to be born to a set of parents that looked at my circumstance as, okay, this is what is, and we have soccer practice to get to or swim practice or whatever it is that the family had

going on and the fact that I had a limb difference from birth was part of our experience but it wasn't what made up everything that we had to focus on all the time and I think their example of just sort of pick up and go is why I sort of developed an attitude of let's move on. Let's move on with things. Like we got, we got places to go. We got stuff to do. And so we were busy. Like my sister was a tremendous swimmer and she was constantly going to the swim meets and my older brother was super into soccer and he wanted to, you know, I just wanted to do the kinds of stuff that they were doing. My sister was a cheerleader.

So for a long time when I was a kid, I took gymnastics, which was fine to a point until to go up a level, you had to get your back handspring. And I don't know how anyone does a back handspring without calves. So sports really became frustrating to me. And I started to kind of look for other outlets and other things to be a part of that I didn't have to be a competitive athlete to be a part of. But you were never discouraged by your parents or your siblings from being included. In fact, I think you'd said that you were also teased by your siblings growing up, that it was a normal childhood. They never treated me like I was different or that I was made of glass.

We grew up in Alabama, and where we lived had a lot of wild area. And my brother would throw me on his back, and we'd go trampling into the woods or whatever. going into the, you know, going into the like woods or whatever. And so I really had to learn at a very young age how to adapt to a world that was not made for me. And I think that that's pretty true and pretty common of people who have the experience of being either becoming disabled at a young age or being born disabled. Our level of adaptation is pretty next level because we've just had to do it since the day we were born or the day that this onset of whatever it is. It's exciting that more women are starting to be included and pushing past what they feel like is possible. So it's really exciting. I'm just lucky to be able to run next to Katie, who, you

know, is American record holder for, you know, X amount of years. So, I mean, it's fun to have somebody to chase for sure. Outstanding. Give these young ladies a wonderful hand as they are representing and pioneering in the sport for the young ladies with the T42s. You did not run until you were 25 years old and then your running career sort of took off. I mean, honestly, at some point it was sort of, would this interest you? Would you want to try this? And for me, I was like, for sure, I'm an actor. Like it's important to be fit and like feel strong and healthy. And that was my only intention with getting the running blades. And I had no muscle memory for running because I was born without them, without my legs. So I would sort of bounce on each foot twice. And I like my brain understood

running, but like my, the mechanics in my body were just like, we have no idea what you're asking us to do. It took me a while to even just figure out how to put one foot in front of the other quickly. Like that in itself was a big challenge. I went to a track meet for fun. I had been running for about two months, and there was a track meet that my prosthetist was like, the company will pay, let's go. You can just run 100 meters. And it was at that track meet that a Paralympic track coach,

Joaquin Cruz, he's still the ambulatory track coach for the Paralympic team. He saw me at that event and he was just, how serious about this are you? And I was like, not at all. Not at all. But he kind of planted this seed and it truly was at a point where there was not a lot going on for performers with disabilities and it just sort of opened a space and made way for me to focus on fitness for a little while and you know being a kid born without legs I didn't know that I happened to be quick but it really became a passion and again it was just sort of like,

like the worst thing that can happen is that I don't make a national team. And I landed, I was slated to go to the Beijing games in 2008. And I got hurt when I was a week away from the national trials for two for the 2008 Beijing games. And you had to compete in the trials to make the team. And I felt and I hurt myself really badly. And I always say, be careful what you wish for. Because at my first track meet, I turned to my prosthetist and I was like, can I just sing the national anthem? I would rather do that than run this race. And I had already committed to singing the national anthem at those nationals. And it might've been the slowest national anthem ever sung because I was on some pretty heavy painkillers. And then I sat in the stands and I watched my hundred meters run

past me with just tears rolling down my face because I knew what I had put out in the world and I saw it disappear right in front of me. And I licked those wounds for a while. I definitely couldn't run for a while. I got strong again in the pool. I had to take all the weight off of my back to be able to exercise. So it was when Beijing was far enough in the rearview mirror and London was close enough in front of me for me to go, yeah, this is something that I want. This is something I want to try to accomplish. And I trained and worked hard and made it to the London Paralympic Games and set an American record in 100 meters and ran a personal best.

And, you know, it was just extraordinary. That's awesome. And I believe that the London Olympics were maybe the first time where the Paralympics were really sort of out in front and really got a lot of spectators and a lot of interest. That must have been amazing. It was, it's sensory overload. London was the first time that the Paralympics have ever sold out. And track is a marquee sport. So like, everyone wants to go see track and field. So, um, and to stand in that place wearing a Jersey that says United States of America, like who gets to do that? Like not very, like you said, not very many people get to have, you know, especially in the entertainment business, the success I have, but I would deem to say that fewer people get to wear their country's jersey

and represent them at the Olympics or the Paralympics. It's a pretty small band of humans. Do you design your own prosthetics in terms of fashion? Because I've seen some pictures of you that are very attractive with some prosthetics that are very fashionable. I think this influx of 3D printing has really come into the world and the world at large. I've started working with a company called Unique, and they do 3D printed prosthetic covers. In the past, I've just sort of taken the kind of robot vibe and then styled around it. But now it's gotten to the point where I get to make a choice about also not just what am

I wearing? What are my shoes? But like, what did the prosthetics actually look like? Which is really exciting. And I feel like it's figuring out how to make them feel feminine because I feel like for the most part they're it's metal and it's hard and it's like how do you take something like that and try to figure out how to make it look feminine and sexy and soft in some way it's a cool time who knew that 3d printing would be the thing that's like oh no no we can, you can do all sorts of crazy stuff. And you just put it, you know, it's a cover. So let's talk about becoming an actor or your desire to become an actor, which started very,

very young. I always loved to sort of perform. I feel like I was born singing. Song music really was my sort of first step into that world. I sang in the choir at church and things like that. And I just loved singing. I loved performing. And I went to see a children's theater production of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory when I was in elementary school. The girl who played Violet, the little girl playing her went to my school. She was a couple of years older than me, but she went, she went to my school. And it was like seeing your best friend on Broadway. I mean, it was literally like, wait, this is possible. I know her. If she can do this, I can do this. Why can't I do this? And that really was kind of the beginning of me just sort of saying, yes, that, whatever that is, I want to do that. And I went to my first theater audition at 12.

When you said, hey, I want to be an actor, what was their reaction? I don't think they really got it. And I think that they thought it was maybe just something to do for fun on the side or and even when i was like auditioning for colleges and went to a conservatory my dad even to that day was like yeah do this like go but he really wanted me to sort of have a backup plan like he really wanted me to like perhaps perhaps get a teaching certificate while I'm in college. No, he was a sensible person. I was a 17, 18 year old that was like, no, my dreams are going to come true. Hold my beer. I'm doing this. Whether that was sensible or not is up for debate. Did you ever try to hide your disability? For a long time, I called it the

art of blending in. If I have cosmetic coverings over my prosthetic legs and I wear, you know, a nice pair of like pants or loose, you know, loose jeans or something like that, like you may notice that my gait is a little different, but like it will almost look like I hurt my ankle or something. Like it doesn't, it's not, it's not so noticeable. But I always felt like, I always felt like I was walking into an audition or into a situation where I felt like I had a secret and it was like not a good secret to have because you're terrified of what they're going to ask you to do. In college, I never played disabled. In college, I only wore, you know, I played head of gabber in college and I had a corset and a

bustle and like, it didn't matter. And my earliest jobs out of college were, you know, my first like equity jobs and things like that in Chicago actually were again, it was like Oscar Wilde. So it was like bustles and corsets and long dresses and things like that. And it didn't, it didn't matter. But it was when I moved to LA that you really had to sort of find a box. There have been times that it's been like long stretches where nothing was going on for performers with disabilities. And then there'd be like one show and you'd be like, was going on for performers with disabilities. And then there'd be like one show and you'd be like, huzzah, I'm on My Name is Earl.

And then you, you know, pray that something else happens, but it takes another three years for something else to happen. Sure. I'm sad and pissed and I'm gonna be sad. Pissed and sad for however long I'm pissed and sad and that's fine. I feel like feeling whatever I feel right now in my paper bag, and that's fine.

There's no recovery from this. My spinal cord's shattered. This is it. I know you know that. So please, just don't. I want to talk about cost of living and congratulations on the huge success and the Pulitzer. I understand that it was a very difficult role for you to play. The first time I read the script was almost seven years ago now. When we started the Broadway run, it was six and a half.

And it scared me to death. And part of that was her vulnerability, the fact that this woman has gone through so much. I knew it was going to be emotionally difficult to play this part. And myself as a performer, as an actor, when something shakes you that hard, to me, that is an indication that it's probably something you should try to do, to push yourself out of your comfort zone artistically. Because most of the time you're getting to do like a guest star on this cute little sitcom or whatever. The times for you to really stretch and push yourself as an artist are those times where you are like, wow, I'm really intimidated by this. And to me, that's an indication that I should probably give it a try. Cost of Living itself is a four-person play, and it's two storylines. And it's really kind of a person who needs care and a caregiver,

and a person who needs care and a caregiver. And you don't know how the two stories relate until the very end. My side of the storyline, it's a couple who have separated and they're getting divorced. And during their separation, she has a car accident. And she becomes, in our world, she became a quadriplegic, but also due to sepsis, she loses her legs. She's in a wheelchair. I have very little mobility. Every single single time the scariest moment for me in the whole show was the moment before i wheel out on stage because of that vulnerability annie is in a wheelchair she doesn't use prosthetics so like incredible amount of vulnerability coming from me to play that part and then there's a scene in a bathtub where the last scene of the

play i lay in a bathtub for about 20 minutes and the whole scene basically all you see is my neck and my head and we had to figure out sight lines and stuff and so we added bubbles to the bathtub which also complicates everything because it's not just water then you're dealing with bubbles and like but like the bubbles did add a layer I mean literally a layer of danger because of my character there's kind of an accident you know in this bathtub and it is scary it is scary and and Martina the brilliance of Martina and her writing and the brilliance of using a performer with a disability in that role there is a moment where the audience genuinely does not know if the character is in trouble or if katie is in trouble there is a real moment in the theater of people being like so startled and uncertain if that is real if it's planned and i don't know if an able-bodied person was playing that role i don't know that people would have had that same right

visceral reaction which is a brilliant brilliant brilliant reason to kind of demand for more authenticity and how do you feel about inspiring others it's challenging at times because it feels actually it was lena way who was talking about she's a an emmy winning writer and actress and and she's lgbtq and no african or women of color who's also lgbtq had ever won an emmy before for writing and she was saying that she was sort of this reluctant flag bearer. And saying that she didn't realize that she was who she was waiting for. And I didn't realize this going into rehearsals or anything like that. It was when I started doing press, actually, that my publicist made known to me

that I was the first actress who's an amputee to ever be on Broadway like ever that's unbelievable I mean I remember the first Broadway show I ever saw I was 17 I was on a school trip and my school we went to see three Broadway shows. And the first show I ever saw, curtains going down, like, end of the show. And I just start sobbing. And my teacher, actually, I'm standing on the street by the theater. And I'm just crying. And my teacher came over. And she was like, what happened?

Like, are you okay? What happened? And I just was just like, I just want to do that so bad. Like I was crying because like, I was just like, I want to be a part of this. And every single day walking from my apartment to rehearsal, I passed that corner, that same exact corner, the 17 year old in me was crying, saying that she just wanted to be a part of this world and community. And not a single day did I not reflect on that and was grateful and excited and

pinching myself to actually be like, holy crap, I did it. And that is twofold in that it's incredible from the perspective of like, wow, I'm humbled and it's amazing and we need more of this please but on the other side it's like it's 2022 like there's never been an actress who's an amputee on broadway like why is that and so it's amazing and humbling and all of those things but it also comes with a bit of a, you know, you have to hold yourself to some respect to a higher standard in what you put out in the world, how you interact with people. And so I'm really careful about how I present myself because I do feel a responsibility to a community of young girls who are looking to me to be the person to point to and say, well, she did it,

so I can. I can too. Let's talk a little bit about your activism. And when Dwayne Johnson played an amputee in Skyscraper, you put out an open letter, you did some press about it. I picked that moment to rattle the cage in a big way for two reasons. I was never going to be considered for that part. Like, I didn't want it to come across as like, oh, I want to play that part. I would be more careful about coming across as an actress who's like sour grape. So it felt like, OK, this might be a decent time to point this out. And also Dwayne Johnson seems like someone who's sort of open and receptive. I'm sure it could have felt like I was attacking him, but I was honestly trying to start a conversation about

representation. If you look at individuals with disabilities are 20% of the population, the largest minority, not only in our country, but globally, but we're still the least represented. Am I busier personally? 100%. I'm way busier than I ever have been. And I think that is, it all comes from, germinates from that place of enough people have said hey can we tell our own stories and or this is not okay and and the people who are making the money and putting their money down are starting to that's where you have to get right to the people who are like okay this is going to be a problem for us. That has to outweigh at some point casting Dwayne Johnson or saying, how do we rewrite this script in such a way that we can use a performer with a disability?

And Dwayne is still the biggest star in the movie. Right. Like, how do we marry these two? star in the movie. Like, how do we marry these two? And I've, I mean, personally gone and had meetings with producers and sat down with them. There was a film that came out a number of years ago. And again, it was a, they used an able-bodied actor to play an amputee. And I asked the producer to, to have a meeting with me and to his credit, he did. And we talked about it and he was very candid about it. And he said, listen, it's box office draw.

Like this is an independent film to begin with. And then if we don't have, you know, X name attached to it, are people going to come? And that's where I feel like things are changing and starting to change because there are so many projects now where people are like oh my gosh have you seen and it's this tiny little thing that like look at Crip Camp it went all the way to the Oscars because people were so blown away by the

story not necessarily who was attached to it so I mean I know that was a documentary, but, and I said to this producer, no one is going to be, you know, Dwayne Johnson until someone's given an opportunity to become Dwayne Johnson. Exactly. So that's the difference. Exactly. Do you think we're going in the entertainment business of more authentic representation that you'll see people with disabilities playing parts that don't have to do with their disability at all. I certainly hope so.

And I feel like how we get there is more writers from our community having access to writers' rooms or developing a project, developing a series, because they will look at the mundane, which will always seem extraordinary to the able-bodied population or the people who don't necessarily have personal life experience with somebody who lives their life this way. I'm excited about where we're going in that direction too, because more writers from our community or more writers that have life experience with somebody who lives this way is, are, we're going to get to the place where it's, it's less of, I'm a hero from some recent war or a plane crash victim or a cabinet fell on me and I got squished. Like that's my early career that I did,

you know, my early television career, a lot of veterans really good at my military salute and, you know, some tragic accident. I'm interested in the woman who is a double amputee going on a date or going to, you know, going to the DMV or, you know or what are those stories? And in my life now, what excites me are those opportunities and those times to play a character that it's not necessarily about disability, because that's where I came from. I came from this place of, well, I can play Hedda, I can be in this Oscar Wilde play, I can do Shakespeare, I can do all these things. And it's not about disability. I was a part of the new season of Dexter and my character was disabled in a wheelchair. She was a wheelchair user and she identified as a person with a disability. But like it wasn't a plot point. It wasn't emotional manipulation for the audience in some way.

She was just a woman with a job. And she was the town gossip and she was funny and whatever from a seated position. And I was like, yes, this, more of this, playing roles where it's like, well, why can't that lawyer be in a wheelchair? Or why can't that doctor have a prosthetic leg? Like, I don't understand why we can't move in that direction. Exactly. Exactly. Katie, it was so exciting to have this conversation. So enlightening. And I really appreciate you being our guest on All About Change. So thank you so much for your time. I wish you much success in the coming years.

Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. All About Change is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our show is produced by Yochai Metal and Mijon Zulu. As always, be sure to come back in two weeks for another inspiring story. Jason Docton is going to take us into the gaming subculture. We will learn about how gaming impacts mental health and what can be done to help. In the meantime, you can go check out all of our previous content live on our feed and linked on our website, allaboutchangepodcast.com. Lastly, if you enjoy our show,

please help us spread the word. Tell a friend or family member or consider writing a review on your favorite podcasting app. I'm Jay Rudiman, and I'll catch you next time on All About Change. But not goodbye