An Army of Normal Folks - 23 Years After 9/11 : Sonia Agron (Pt 2)

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

For the 23rd anniversary of 9/11, we re-run our episode with Sonia Agron. When the World Trade Center was struck, Sonia promised her husband, an NYPD officer who responded to the attack, that she wouldn’t go to the site to help. But she couldn’t keep that promise and volunteered as a recovery worker at Ground Zero on overnight shifts. In addition to grieving their losses, the Agrons soon began to deal with various illnesses brought on by exposure to Ground Zero’s toxic environment. In spite of this, Sonia has continued volunteering by leading tours at the 9/11 Tribute Museum and 9/11 Memorial. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney again with an army of normal folks. Let's continue with part two of our conversation with Sonya Agron right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Lonti marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle

the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people. Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia, and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law and Order, Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law and Order, Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. Its tradition is culture.

This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12 episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre. And I'm your host Santos Escobar, the emperor of lucha libre and a WWE superstar. Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of my cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts.

Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret?

When should you not trust your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging

into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was December 2019 when the story blew up. In Green Bay, Wisconsin, former Packer star Kabir Vajabiamila caught up in a bizarre situation. Hey, GB explaining what he believes led to the arrest of his friends at a children's Christmas play.

A family man, former NFL player, devout Christian, now cut off from his family and connected to a strange arrest. I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. I got swept up in Kabir's journey, but this was only the beginning in a story about faith and football,

the search for meaning away from the gridiron and the consequences for everyone involved. You mix homesteading with guns and church and a little bit of the spice of conspiracy theories that we liked. Voila! You got straight away. I felt like I was living in North Korea, but worse, if that's possible. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We think of Franklin as the dodging dude flying a kite in the rain,

but those experiments are the most important scientific discoveries of the time. I'm Evan Ratliff. Last season, we tackled the ingenuity of Elon Musk with biographer Walter Isakson. This time, we're diving into the story of Benjamin Franklin, another genius who's desperate to be dusted off from history. His media empire makes him the most successful self-made business person in America. I mean, he was never early to bed and early to rise type person. He's enormously famous.

Women start wearing their hair in what was called a coiffure a la Franklin. And who's more relevant now than ever. The only other person who could have possibly been the first president would have been Benjamin Franklin. But he's too old and wants Washington to do it. Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You decide you've got to do something and this is where I find you amazing is I'll explain it to us, but you, so I understand now I didn't that the Red Cross had centers

for the first responders and some of these guys would work all day and wouldn't even go home and they would go and sleep in a center near ground zero and get a little rest and rest up and then go back and they would never go home. So they actually worked and slept there and these centers need to be run and you volunteered there? Yeah. So, tell me what, go into what I just said, explain that, how it worked. How it worked was my first responsibility was just to help them get food.

So many amazing people donated so much food. I couldn't eat. I felt I was taking something away from someone else. And about two days later, and I wouldn't talk to anybody. For the first time in my life, I wasn't this bubbly person. I didn't know how to be. And I started doing these hero sticks, making little flags saying they were hero sticks, you needed to fight crime. What were you making them out of?

They were chapsticks and I just put little labels on them. You're a hero. And then I would buy a bunch of lifesavers, put them in a bag and just say, because you are a lifesaver, put them in a bag and just say, because you are a lifesaver, because many of them weren't feeling that. But it was the only way I could speak. I could not speak. And about two days after my midnight shift, my leader with a bunch of others would say, we're going to ground zero. And I asked, are we allowed? She goes, have you ever looked at your ID? It's the first time I did and it said access everywhere. And I thought, oh, well, this is not going

to please my husband. You had more access than him. But we went down to pray. I know now where I was because as you both know, I have no sense of direction. Well, but the bottom line is also, there's really no clues anymore because everything's just rubble. But I know now that I was near the North Tower and the North Tower Bridge. And the way it looked, it was like I'm standing up here and all of a sudden I can see this

big hole and it wasn't even as big as it turned out to be at the end when they had cleaned it all up. Because it was filled with the building. Yes. And I just said naively, where is everything? And one of them grabbed me and hugged me and said, so you're the New Yorker. And I said, but where is everything? I knew it was gone.

I've seen the pictures, but when you see it up close, it is totally different. Okay, so paint that picture for me, all my senses. What did it sound like? What did it smell like? Could you taste it? I could taste it like rotten peaches. Rotten peaches? I only eat nectarines now. I can't deal with peaches.

Really? Rotten, just rotten. And as... So you could still taste it. What did it smell like? Oh, well, Nehemiah asked me, you know what death smells like. They give us these little basil... So the whole area smelled like death? Oh, it was death.

It was burned flesh. You could smell that still? I go into the historical exhibit and I know there are no smells. It was, it was burned flesh. You could smell that still. I go into the historical exhibit and I know there are no smells there. There's nothing there. But as soon as I walk into a certain area, I have to walk back up because I'm right there again. My husband's only done it once. And that was when they gave us an exhibit.

And he went in, I said, you have to, you know, you were part of this, we're trying to tell a story that people don't understand. And he said, just get me to the site and let's get out. What did it feel like? Scary, scary to a point. After that visit with my team leader, I went back and everything looked different for me. I understood why people were hugging.

I understood the reason why people were just holding hands. I didn't want to do any of that. Be strangers, really. Yeah, but you know, like, how are you doing this? You don't really know each other. But I understood as soon as I came back from the site. And I looked in and I said they're comforting each other and at that moment they told me your assignments been changed and I said where am I going

you're going upstairs to take care of first responders and I thought that was a blessing couldn't help my husband so you're standing there and it smells like rotten peaches. No, it tastes like rotten peaches. It smells like burning flesh. And there were other smells. I knew there were fires from the building. Smoke still? Yeah, oh, there was definitely smoke.

Did it smell like diesel fuel at all? You know, I don't recollect that. I've always wondered from the planes because that's what started the fire. If you could still smell that. It might have been the first week or two, but I didn't smell it when I came in on the thing. Okay, so it tasted the smell. It tasted for me like rotten tea.

Did it feel gritty? Was the air gritty? Everything was gritty. Everything was gritty from my shoes when we got outside. We had to get another vest on. Okay and you see a hole that's basically a building filled. Could you, and I guess you see people working on top of the rubble and what did you hear? Wow you hear a lot of trucks. You hear the sounds of those big

excavators, machinery. The machinery but but the wind, the lights, the big lights, the generators, okay, they were going on and it didn't look like nighttime. It looked like you were in Vegas when it's night and all that you see is light. Okay. Well, that's another thing to see is so middle of the night, but it's bright everywhere because it's 24 hours. You see fires. And I remember when I got out the first

time how did my shoes get so muddy? Really? Yeah. And I was standing. No, it was mud piles because they had been spraying the whole entire area to you know, break down any flags and this was the residue and you know, I wondered where are my shoes? I'm standing right here and somebody said just pull them out. we'll get them cleaned for you. And okay, and I was so robotic at that moment, but something changed when they put me into work with first responders. Yeah, and so from there, that's the thing,

you get what you're volunteering to do is actually tend to the first responders that are coming to these, what are they called? Respite centers. They each have respite centers. So they set up respite centers so that a fireman or any first responder or police officer, whatever, they work until they're about to drop. They're covered, the reason I wanted these senses, they're covered in this soot and this

mud and this filth and they must stink like death and rotten peaches. They have to have it all over them. What I remember is how dirty they looked. I would give them enough clothes to shower just to change their undergarments. And what didn't go away was the smell of smoke. Even though they had clean undergarments, they still had to wear their uniforms. Oh, and so that stench never went away. And we did everything.

We banged it, I bought whatever I could. It didn't matter. So you're in these respite centers, taking care of the first responders, they're in this mess, breathing this crap, inhaling it, trying to clean and find, frankly, body parts so that some family can have just a piece of their loved one. I can't even believe I'm saying this, but this is reality. And they're coming to a respite center that you're now at with other volunteers to help these folks get a little rest and they don't even go home and then they get back up and

they go right back to it. And this went on for months. Yeah. This went on for months. One of the issues we had on our team was firefighters could take off their garments and put it on the edge of the floor. And we also had engineers and all that, but when it came to police officers, they couldn't take their guns off. And so a lot of the people that I was working with said, we don't know how to wake them up because they jump and I go, I know how to do it. They jump and they've got a gun on them.

Yeah. And so I said, here, follow me. This is what you do. What's their first name? So I said, just go up to their head, rub their faces, whisper in their ear their name, and they're going to think they're home. And that's exactly what happened. These guys were-

Complete strangers. Didn't matter. They weren't strangers. They were family now. So you're literally rubbing these guys' heads? I'm rubbing some other woman's husband's face, but it didn't matter. They didn't wake up in shock. They didn't wake up thinking something else is happening.

And for those who were working with me, they said, thank you, because we would just shine flashlights in their face hoping they would wake up and they would still jump up. One of the things I've read about shock and one of the things I've read about people that come home from war is one of the hardest things they have to do is actually sleep. That in closing their eyes, their mind immediately goes to the horror that they've experienced. And by not sleeping and keeping your eyes open, your mind doesn't trick you into having to relive that horror. And what that leads to though, is people who are already in a stressful situation, they

don't get enough sleep and then it exacerbates a problem. So it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. Were any of the guys, I mean, we're talking about firefighters and policemen, we're talking about, you know, guys, guys rolling in these places. And so I got to believe they're walking in with this facade of I'm tough as hell. But then they shower and they try to get cleaned up and now they're supposed to get rested. Did any of them struggle with just sleep? The few that I had, when I would get them to their assigned cots, would grab my hand

or wrist and tell me, can you just sit with me for a minute? And it was at that moment that I understood why my husband couldn't sleep. And some of them said, I can't, I don't want to see what I just saw. And whatever they wanted me to do, I would do so. If it was a dumb joke, I would say it. I'd invent one. Some of them wanted to pray. Some of them just wanted to put their heads on my shoulder and I did it because I felt I couldn't do it for my husband.

Maybe somebody in the day tour would do it for him. Just pay it forward. Did you let these guys know that you were married to a cop? Absolutely. I had my... So they knew that you knew what the job was. Yeah. And I showed them. I said, listen, you know, I'm not on the job, but I am on the job. And they would smile. They would talk to me. And that would mean their whole entire

40-minute rest. 40 minutes? Yeah. That's all? Some of them got an hour. Well, because some of them were still on duty, they were given an hour break and they decided, oh, that's where I'm going to go. And then they realized that's where we can't go because we can't, we're not resting. And imagine you're a police officer with all this equipment on, couldn't take any part of your uniform off because if they called you, you had to be ready to respond.

And so for me, the best part and the worst part of my job was bringing him comfort Anybody who wanted it didn't matter to me who you were what you were crying about Whatever you wanted to tell me stayed with me And as the days went on I understood why my husband wouldn't talk. I understood a lot about him Well, you didn't have to do this. You were volunteer. I volunteered because it's your responsibility Well, you didn't have to do this. You were volun... I volunteered because it's your responsibility whether you're EMT or not. This is your community. You have to get involved with your community. If you're not, then what's the point? It takes a village and I was part of that village. So that's the point is, you know, sure you're an EMT, sure, your husband's on the job, but you're just, you're Sonya

from the Bronx. And the worst thing that's happened in our country since Pearl Harbor, and in the midst of what we've described of true human horror. Do you go down there every day simply to try to console and take care of the people that are trying to take care of this mess? I think everyone should have. And how long did you do that?

I was there until the mid December when my husband asked me to please not go anymore. So four months. Yeah, he didn't want me to please not go anymore. So four months. Yeah, he didn't want me to go back anymore. And my daughter was also, she's just, mom, I can't sleep, I can't go to school. And I said, okay, I have to be a wife and I have to be a mom, but I felt I did something.

And I continued, I started from there doing other things just for people who weren't there here. talking about how close are these respite centers if you're only getting a 45 minute break? They must be right on top of the ground zero. St. John's was I think three blocks away. Stuyvesant, two, three blocks. Two or three blocks. Yeah. And then they had tents. Okay. Well then even when you're not on ground zero even working at these places

You're in the midst of it all We saw smoke and fire for months. So how many volunteers were there like you? Oh, wow for the Red Cross all I can tell you is my midnight team had about 20 with myself included And we couldn't leave unless somebody came to replace us. But it was around the clock and some of them that I spoke to weren't even... And there were many respite centers. Yes, you had the Mary Reed Hotel that had respite centers. Whatever... Well, I can't say Burger King because that was a center for the police department.

But wherever there was a hotel or something big enough to house people, that was what was done. So thousands. I would say yeah. A lot of those stories don't even exist anymore. All of whom breathed in this toxic crap. Yeah. We'll be right back. For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene.

It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Lonti marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people. Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia, and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the Commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal

government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law and Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was December 2019 when the story blew up. In Green Bay, Wisconsin, former Packer star Kabir Vajabiamila caught up in a bizarre situation. Hey, GB, explaining what he believes led to the arrest of his friends at a

children's Christmas play. A family man, former NFL player, devout Christian, now cut off from his family and connected to a strange arrest. I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. I got swept up in Kabir's journey, but this was only the beginning. In a story about faith and football,

the search for meaning away from the gridiron and the consequences for everyone involved. You mix homesteading with guns and church and a little bit of the spice of conspiracy theories that we liked, voila, you got straight away. I felt like I was living in North Korea, but worse, if that's possible. Listen to Spiral on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and

of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because't get more Mexican than this. Lucha Libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha Libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. It's tradition.

It's culture. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host host Santos Escobar, the emperor of lucha libre and a WWE superstar. Santos! Santos! Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport

from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of my Kultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you stream podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our

lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks, and why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging

into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We think of Franklin as the doddering dude flying a kite in the rain, but those experiments are the most important scientific discoveries of the time. I'm Evan Ratliff. Last season, we tackled the ingenuity of Elon Musk with biographer Walter Isakson. This time, we're diving into the story of Benjamin Franklin,

another genius who's desperate to be dusted off from history. His media empire makes him the most successful self-made businessperson in America. I mean, he was never early to bed and early to rise type person. He's enormously famous. Women start wearing their hair in what was called a coiffure a la Franklin. And who's more relevant now than ever. The only other person who could have possibly been the first president would have been Benjamin Franklin.

But he's too old and wants Washington to do it. Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we're 20 years later and you're still volunteering. I never left. I mean, except for the seven years that we couldn't talk about 9-11. I never left. My heart was always there. And when the opportunity came up after my mom passed,

before she passed, she reminded me that I said, I'm still going to do something for the community. And she goes, you've been taking care of me too long. And the day after we buried her, I got the email from Tribute, are you still interested? To explain to our listeners what Tribute is? The 9-11 Tribute Museum was the first museum on Ground Zero and it was started by the September 11th Families Association. And we actually started on the streets, we didn't have offices or anything. We would just pull people and ask, would you like to go?

And we can tell you. And the criteria of the 9-11 Tribune Museum was that the only people who could do this were people who had a personal connection. The only people who would do tours. Or talks. We've gone to school. I've gone to Japan.

So it's either first responder, recovery worker, or survivor, a family member, or resident, because we were directly affected. And that became the difference between what we do and what the National Museum does. And it was not only to tell the stories. That's what we thought we were doing. What we realized very soon was that we were healing because you're talking to strangers who aren't gonna tell you, move on and get over it.

And at the end, those strangers became our friends. They hugged us, some of them have kept in touch with us. They've come back three, four, five times and they will say, well, we want a tour with Sonia. I go, there's so many other people you know, we wanna hear from you. And we put a tour with Sonia. I go, there are so many other people, yeah, no, we want to hear from you. And we put a face on 9-11. But people forget about the Flight 93 where there were 40 people, which used to be always

200. That flight took off late. And these 40 people knew they were being hijacked. They knew where they were going and they made the democratic decision when that plane was over land or water, that they would take over that cockpit Even though they knew they would die and I I always say not to take away from any of our first responders But those were our first heroes

They knew what was going to happen because whatever that plane was gonna to hit, they saved. Some think it was the Capitol, some think it was the White House. It was the Capitol because Congress was in session. It was the first day. Had to have been. I think... It was New York's, the world's economy, world's military, which is the Pentagon and the Capitol. And they got two out of three, but we all these 40 people are dead of gratitude

that they knew they didn't know why but they knew they were getting calls of information and they said we're not letting this happen. By that time I believe both captains were murdered and there is a black box that was taken. We've gone to Shanksville and there is a display of how the plane was people were fighting and you can see the plane going deep to the right, deep to the left and the terrorists would say we're not going to make our mark, let's just kill them. And so they flew the plane up, twisted the plane upside down and that was that. They didn't care.

And saved countless lives, hundreds, maybe even thousands. This is why those are my favorite people of all time. Okay. So, my question to you about the volunteer work is I've been really fortunate to meet some of the first responders recently and every one of them I've met are sick with some kind of weird leukemia or stomach stuff and they all have this cough that's odd. The bark, we call it the bark. And you have that.

And my husband and I compete every morning whose bark is the loudest. Your husband what? And I compete every morning whose bark is the loudest. And you call it the bark? Because it sounds like we're barking. And tell me, tell me what is cost, medically, among the group of people that- Thankfully, we had insurance and then the VCF came. The Victims Compensation Fund, a federal program to cover the medical bills

for illnesses resulting from the toxic environment that was ground zero. And basically we get free medicine, but it's hard to get certified for any illness. We have to prove we were there. We have to get affidavits. My husband, for one, was there. I mean, he signed his time sheets, and when he went after he got sick, he got sick 10 years later. He had already been retired, and when they told him, you can get three quarters for this. This was on the job. Don't let it go. They denied him four times. Because you can still work. And he goes, no, I'm a bodyguard.

And there are things I have to do while I'm protecting someone that I cannot do. And so it's their life or my job, and I'm here to protect their lives. And he literally had to go to another hearing and pull his pants down and show his diapers. Are you kidding me? No. No.

That is... And then the wives left behind. Some of these men and women, but I can only speak for the women I know, I'm in a support group, private support group, because we have, our husbands did not come home. They didn't, their bodies did, but their minds, their attitude, everything is, we're married to two different men. They get angry, they won't do as they're told

in terms of medical. Then we have to watch them get sick. We have to watch them get worse. Our children have to watch them get sick, we have to watch them get worse, our children have to watch it, and then when that's done then we have to watch them die. And then after that we depend on what our benefits because we've been spending all this time taking care of them and then they're denying, oh no he didn't sign this. He was there. He was there.

We have proof he was there. That's never enough. Our city failed us. Our government failed us. Are you dealing with health issues? I gave up. Yes. I have...

Oh, wow. They won't approve my fibromyalgia, which I never had before 9-11. They won't approve my fibromyalgia, which I never had before 9-11. They won't approve my thyroid illness. They only approved my sinus and my GERD. That's it. And I'm in constant pain. I've tried every treatment available to me, but I only have one kidney due to cancer. And there's a lot of things I can't take.

My husband had bladder cancer. Last year they removed a tumor occupying 85% of his spine. But if you go to a doctor now and you put down your medical history and you say anything about 9-11, they do this. Now, we don't want to have anything to do with that. These are doctors. These are doctors. They don't have anything to do with you. They don't want to have anything to do with that. These are doctors. These are doctors. They don't have anything to do with you. They don't want to fill out

any paperwork and there is no paperwork to fill out. Just write a letter. So can we say that the penalty that you and your family are experiencing in many families that volunteered and gave their time in the aftermath of 9-1-1 literally is killing you. It is. So I gotta ask you, would you change it? Would I change while I'm going down there? No. Even though you're in constant pain and even though your strapping cop husband had to demoralize himself to try to get all of it Would you wouldn't change a bit of it? Yeah, why?

Because it's humanity It's humanity at its best. We have to do what we can for each other Otherwise your community suffers and what happens when there's another attack your community isn't strong enough People don't care enough for each other. Oh, that's not my business. I've not, no, that has nothing to do with me. Yes, 9-11 has to do with everybody. It was a global event.

92 nations were affected, but it was also a personal event. And there are a lot of people that, no, I don't wanna be bothered. Or some people that just can't because it's too hard. I have friends that have moved out. I don't want to be bothered or some people that just can't because it's too hard. I have friends that have moved out I don't I don't want to be here Sonya You know You were in your early 20s when you saw the lady fall out and

It started a it started a decades- long journey for you of just serving other people. And it's at this point cost you and your husband your health, it's cost you your, it sounds to me like it's cost some of your happiness. It's cost us our daughter. It's cost us our daughter. It's cost you your daughter. How? We're speaking now, but at one point she screamed and yelled and she said, I'm sick and tired of you guys being so sick. I'm tired of this. And we didn't hear from her for

about six months. And my husband and I thought this is the price we pay. She's come back around since then, but she's angrier than ever. And we feel so guilty that we had a part of that. There are a lot of people who, I know one woman, a good friend, husband was PD, and his attitude has changed so much that three of her children want to die. They've actually attempted murder and she had to leave the house because of abuse.

And that's why we have a private group, survivors, wives of 9-11 survivors, because we're paying a price that nobody seems to understand. And we get told, well, you can go to the group therapy. We don't want to talk to a group of women that don't understand what we're dealing with. And then we're told how ungrateful we were that, oh, they came back, so you should be happy that you're dealing with this. No, I didn't marry that guy.

And I didn't expect to lose my daughter either. And though she's in our life and we have a beautiful granddaughter, there's still that anger between us and we just tried. That's a blessing. I just turned it off because right now it's like I don't have time to be a mother. I can only be a grandmother. These are the things we tell ourselves, but it's hurting us, it's killing us. And we're not the only ones. There are a lot of my girlfriends who says, my daughter left, my son left, because my husband is this way. So as wives, we've,

you know, we got to take care of our partner, but we also have to take care of our children. And if we try to do either one, someone's always gonna be angry at us. I just live every day thanking God that he trusted me enough to live another day. That's the way I have to see it, otherwise I know I will go absolutely bonkers and I don't have any intentions of doing that. We'll be right back.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Lonti marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people. Discover how a group of young prosecutors

took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement, brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law and Order Criminal Justice System. Listen is Law and Order, Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law and Order, Criminal Justice System on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think of Mexican culture, you think of Avocado, Mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha libre is a type of storytelling.

It's a dance. Its tradition is culture. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12 episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Santos! Santos!

Santos Escobar. Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of my Cultura podcast network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts. It was December 2019 when the story blew up. In Green Bay, Wisconsin, former Packer star Kabir Bajabiamila caught up in a bizarre situation. Hey, G.B. explaining what he believes led to the arrest of his friends at a children's Christmas play. A family man, former NFL player, devout Christian, now cut off from his family and connected to a strange arrest. I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite.

I got swept up in Kabir's journey, but this was only the beginning in a story about faith and football, the search for meaning away from the gridiron, and the consequences for everyone involved. You mix homesteading with guns and church and a little bit of the spice of conspiracy theories that we liked. Voila! You got straight away. I felt like I was living in North Korea, but worse, if that's possible. Listen to Spiral on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one

science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?

Why do brains so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We think of Franklin as the doddering dude flying a kite in the rain, but those experiments are the most important scientific discoveries of the time. I'm Evan Ratliff. Last season, we tackled the ingenuity of Elon Musk with biographer Walter Isaacson. This time, we're diving into the story of Benjamin Franklin, another genius who's desperate

to be dusted off from history. His media empire makes him the most successful self-made business person in America. I mean, he was never early to bed and early to rise type person. He's enormously famous. Women start wearing their hair in what was called the coiffure a la Franklin. And who's more relevant now than ever.

The only other person who could have possibly been the first president would have been Benjamin Franklin. But he's too old and wants Washington to do it. Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We talk a lot about, on this show, about common people doing extraordinary things. That's the whole idea of the army of normal folks. And, you know, there's just not much more normal than a paramedic and a cop getting

married in the Bronx and living life and the extraordinary things that you did after 9-11 just to serve and then the extraordinary things you've done in the last few years to tell the real story of 9-11 to people who wanted to know what was going on and all that it's cost you and you still say, I wouldn't change a bit of it because it was just the right thing to do. I mean, You have to do the right thing. But that is so inspirational.

That is, I just, listen, some things that we do, we've talked to people who were in jail for 20 something years, and then they turn their life around and they help others. We're talking to people who take homeless people jogging and actually turn their lives around and all these stories. But the point is, you are living proof that you don't have to start a 501c3 you don't have to start a massive organization you don't have to raise a bunch of money you can be just a common living trying to figure it out person just like the vast

majority of us and still find ways to do amazing things to serve their fellow man. And even in the face of sickness and death, you still say, that's what we have to do. We're responsible for each other. And I think that's what we've lost. An entire year after 9-11, you could look at someone in the face and say, how are you? And they'd stop and tell you. You would let people stand in front of you in the line because they only had three items and you've been there for 20 minutes. I believe you are where you're supposed to be. Don't question it. It's just what we have to do.

And I... Our country has gone down the tubes. But it's, so you're saying it's not a good thing to give back, it's a responsibility. It's a good thing to give back. No, it's not just a good thing. It's a major responsibility. I mean, think about one thing. Where I live, I live in a tall building. I might have 12 people who live on the same floor. I know there's about three elderly. If our internet is off or we know we're getting a bad storm, I immediately turn on, make some

soup and I just leave it in front of their door because some people are very proud. And they look at that as, oh, you feel sorry for me. No, it's just being neighborly just to let you know there's somebody here to help you. And I've had several people knock on my door who we just say hello to. And one of them did do that a few years ago. And my husband, he mean it, she was walking around the hallways crazy. And I brought her in, I went back to her apartment, I took all her meds and I called 911. I just went on her cell phone, called the daughter and oh my God, they're transporting her. I'll stay with you. No, I'm

going to be there. And two weeks later she came back and in our culture an elephant is a good luck blessing thing. And so she bought me an elephant with some plants on it. And sadly, she would die six months later. But I am forever grateful that she knew at one point in her life when she was all alone that she wasn't. And no one should be alone. I love the holidays, but I also hate them because I know so many people are alone and they shouldn't be.

And when my daughter was in college, I would bring all the kids over who couldn't afford to fly home. I mean, isn't that what moms supposed to do? Wouldn't you as a mother wanna know that someone's taking care of your kid? And nobody cares anymore. We don't live in the same world we used to live in. I don't know this world, but I refuse to give up. I'm not afraid either. I think the human spirit and the very things that you're talking about that demonstrate our humanity, I think it still exists. But I think it's examples of people just like you

who help to inspire people to remember that humanity is important. Yeah, I don't see any rich people helping us. We do it on our own. Yeah. We do it on our own because we can. Doesn't, whatever. It's what you... Listen, I always tell anybody, I have a spare room.

It's a little messy, but you're entitled to come over and say, you got a private bathroom and I do cook. There's always a way. And just, I just think... Chicken and rice? Arroz con pollo, precisely. Oh boy, what the world is that? There's always a way. I just think... Chicken and rice? Arroz con pollo, precisely. What the world is that?

Yes, it's rice mixed with the chicken, with peas, and you cook it so that the rice tastes like chicken. Oh, really? Does Joe like it? Oh, that's his favorite. I just recently got into sloppy Joe's and he goes, Why didn't you ever cook that for me? I said, that's what I cooked when I was single and couldn't afford to do anything. He goes, please, bring back those meals. So we're very, listen, I married a great guy. When I don't want to cook, if it's not food, I'll take food. He cooks. I married the top of the line. That's it. That's all there is to it. So, Sonya, you are, again, you're an inspiration. You're adorable to sit and talk to. I wish

people could see this big pretty smile. You talk with your hands. Yeah, well, got some Puerto Rican in me. You're just you're blasted to talk to and Again I you know, I I don't want to overdo this but I Don't want to Sensationalize for the purposes of a show the the story we've talked about today, but I think it's really important people understand Just the the depth of the carnage and I think it's important people understand just the depth of the carnage. And I think it's important people understand that 9-11 still hasn't stopped killing. But more importantly, I want people to understand that the hidden silver lining of the whole event is that it did bring out some of the best of our humanity.

That whole year was a beautiful year. My whole year was a beautiful, beautiful year. And despite all the illness and pain and suffering, those that served down there, I can't find any one of them that would say, no, I wish I had to go on head first. We had to be there. But see, isn't that what it means to be an army of normal folks? Just normal folks as an army, helping one another out and trying to serve just for the love of humanity.

That's what's missing, but I've also seen it, I've seen it lately. Some people taking charge. How about if we do this? How about if we build this garden? How about if we do that? That's what I'm talking about. You don't need to go through written proposals and you don't need to go to Congress. I don't believe that they do it.

No, I have said plenty that I think the government proves woefully inadequate in serving. But it's the people that are living this, that know how it's done and know what to do and know the cost involved. So anybody listening to us, you don't have to go join something. You just do it. Just go do something. Like you said, just do it. Just do it.

Just do it. Serve somebody that needs serving. And you're going to feel 10 times better. Yeah, that is kind of the payoff. It is my payoff. I mean, you get so much more out of it. Listen, since I decided to start doing tours on my own until Tribute gets back on its feet, I can't tell you how many people come in and go you're doing this for free and I go for now because you know Tribute needs to come back and they go but you came all the way down here I says would you where did you come from and we start that conversation and then I tell them things that I think everyone should know and they go we didn't know that well now that. Now you do. Now go back home and tell other people. And the irony is you were supposed to have a shift today to go volunteer to tell these

stories. This was important. Yeah, but that's what you're still doing. I am. I decided to do it on Saturday instead. Has Joe Georgie? No. He stopped doing tours about four years ago. But he did do some. He did do some under the condition that I do it with him.

He would not talk with anyone else. In Tribute you have a lead and then you have a support. After a while he says, I can't keep my story straight because so many things keep coming back. And also as he was doing tours, he would start remembering more and more stuff. And so one day I just took him down and says, talk to me. I made up a list of questions. Talk to me, tell me, okay, what happened this? And then, and I put it all together and go hear that your story.

And if you, it's okay to tell people. I don't recall. I don't remember that evades me because they need to also understand that our brains give us as much as we can handle. Sometimes they repress it. And, but he, I think when COVID started and he lost his good partner who was also sick from 9-11 and we saw him one day and the following week he was dead from COVID. That just...

That was enough, huh? That was enough for him. And he will go with me. We've spoken in the precincts to the rookies. They don't know about 9-11 for sure. Well, see, that's the other thing. I mean, you think about what a rookie cop is, what are they, 23, 24, 25? They have no idea. They weren't even alive, some of them. Nope, and if they were two, three years old,

and if they had parents who were affected by 9-11, they know just that. So Joe's going and talking to the rookie cop? No, I go, I book everything, and then I tell him I need you to be there. Oh really, so you kidnap him? Yeah. Are you anap him? Yeah. Are you a kidnapper?

Yes, absolutely, with pride. And when I get there, I go, gee, I'm just so exhausted. Can you handle this part for me? Yeah, OK, so you did it again. No, seriously, you don't have to go if you don't want to. I just know that game so well. When you become a parent, you learn a lot more things. And he'll do it.

He'll just talk briefly. But once he gets started, my man is back. So I don't force him, but if I know that this is an opportunity where he gets to speak to other officers, that's his thing. Yeah, of course. It's the brotherhood. Otherwise, can you talk to my friend? No, she'll never understand. And I said, can you talk to my friend? You know, she'll never understand. And they believed that.

But that's a lot like you hear people from war coming back and they won't talk with their families but if you get them around a bunch of vets, they'll all talk to each other. My father never talked about being shot. Because they can identify with each other. My father never told us he was shot in the Korean War. He never told us how bad it was. He did show us his bayonet and said, so this is what you do, you go like this

and you do like that. Yeah, no, I don't wanna go to war. I have to be that close to someone and stab them. Yeah, no, that's all he told us. That's all he had. My mother lived during the war, came over from the Netherlands with my grandfather with sensor Puerto Rigos, she would never

talk about it. And so Joe will open up when he's in the safety of people that are in that program. Because he knows that no one's going to judge him and he knows that they know. Yeah, well, that's good though. Well, what's important for me was I started writing notebooks to our granddaughter. And then about four years ago, Joe had a child from a previous marriage and she would not allow the child to come around. And now we have another granddaughter. Well, that's awesome. So I've started dividing what I have and doing it for her because nobody told us in our family their history. Yeah, but that will matter

so much. It has to start somewhere. I want them to know that there's a lot they can do. What they need to know is that their grandfather Joe and their grandmother Sonia are heroes. I know the self-effacing thing and I know it feels bad to hear that, but I'm telling you, thing and I know it feels bad to hear that but I'm telling you, you know, you guys have given your life to serving this community and it's inspiring and you're still dealing with physical and mental and psychological pain from it yet you wouldn't change a minute about what you did. And you can all shucks it all you want, but that is the definition of a hero. I might change some of the things that I did do to protect myself, but that wasn't what was on my mind.

I understand. But that's heroic work and it's inspiring work and it encapsulates what it means to be just a member of the army of normal folk, just normal folk doing amazing things. And I'm inspired by you and I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed visiting with you this morning. I'm inspired by you and that wonderful documentary that you did. Oh, come on. See, now you're doing what I did. Well, no, I coach football. You save lives.

It's a different deal. It doesn't matter, but you save lives. Maybe you don't know that, but you save lives of all those people you touch. So you are a hero as an ordinary person who does extraordinary things, and that's what you did. Well, then we're just kindred spirits. Okay, then. Then I'll take the hero if you take the hero.

I'll take it. Okay, we're good then. So we do a lot of stories on a lot of different things, like I said earlier, and one of the things we really encourage folks to do is just to give out my email address. If someone is listening today and says, you know, I can't start a 501c3 or I can't start a big organization, but I'm sure as heck just find a place to volunteer or even if they're in New York and they have an experience that they want to share. Do you mind giving our listeners your email address so somebody

can reach out to you? Absolutely not. I will give you the one email address that's mine. Yeah, your email address. All yours. Personal stuff, but it's Sonia, S-O-N-I-A, A-G-R-O-N, I'm giving you my age, 57, at gmail.com. All right, say it one more time and remember that this is a national audience and people from Memphis think you guys talk funny. So should I talk with a flying? Yeah, do that. You can do it that way, but just do it one more time.

Sonya S-O-N-I-A, agron, A-G-R-O-N, 1957, at gmail.com. Awesome, high five. In the shadow of the Freedom Tower, I say to you, thank you so much for the time this morning and it has been an honor to get to meet you. Thank you so much. It was an honor to be here. And thank you for joining us this week. To join an army of Normal Folks, go to normalfolks.us and sign up to become a member of the movement.

We would love to hear what you're doing in your community. And if there's stories you know about that you think we should tell, write me anytime at bill at normalfolks.us. And if you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate and review it, share it with friends and on social, all the things that can help us grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week. For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene.

It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Lonti marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's so much beauty in Mexican culture, like mariachis, delicious cuisine, and even lucha libre.

Join us for the new podcast, Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12 episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host Santos Escobar, emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask on the iHeartReyu app, Apple podcasts, or whatever you stream podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the three pound universe

in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, better we can steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ever get the feeling someone's watching you? Well, in 1971, a group of anti-war activists had that feeling. I was in the heart of the dragon and it was my job to stop the fire. Well, in 1971, a group of anti-war activists had that feeling. I was in the heart of the dragon and it was my job to stop the fire.

So they decided to do something insane, break in to the FBI and expose J. Edgar Hoover's dirty secrets. We had some idea that this was pretty explosive. I'm Ed Helms. Binge the full second season of Snafu now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.