An Army of Normal Folks - Alice Marie Johnson: Bloom Where You’re Planted… In Prison (Pt 1)

Episode Date: January 2, 2024

In 1996, Alice decided to “bloom where you’re planted”—in prison. After receiving an unexpected life sentence, she got to work serving her fellow prisoners by helping them with vocational training, organizing plays, the very first Special Olympics events in a prison, and even loving some as they died as a hospice volunteer. And once she got pardoned, Alice’s service has only accelerated. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I walked on that compound, I just got in there and this lady in this wheelchair looks at me I guess I'm looking around laws and she said what's your name? I told her and she said Alice, bloom where you're planted. God knows where you are. I want to imprison in a wheelchair, she said that she's a God knows where you are and that stuck with me and I just got walking around, I kept picking God, you too, no where I am. Welcome to an Army of Normal Folks, I'm Bill Courtney, I'm a normal guy, I'm a husband,

I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach and intercity Memphis in the last part. It accidentally won an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks us, just you and me deciding, hey, I can help.

That's what Alice Marie Johnson, the voice we just heard, is done, and she did it while serving time in prison of all places. After receiving a pardon, her service of those in prison didn't stop. It's actually accelerated. I can't wait for you to meet Alice right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like easy listening, but perfection.

If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, Nothing Much Happens. I'm an architect of Cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly,

and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curric, and I'm back with the new season of Next Question. Yay! This season, it's all about being more conversational, but I wanted to mix it up a little bit. So I've been inviting different people to join me,

to be my plus ones, ride shotgun if you will and sometimes actually getting the driver's seat. I'm so honored to be A- your plus one and B- your partner in crime. My date today is the one and only Kara Swisher. I didn't know we were dating. I think bringing in new voices will add a little june se kwa, a littleudge, to this season of next question. By the way, I'm not totally abandoning the idea of a one-on-one interview. Sometimes that's the best format.

I'm hoping it'll be more relaxed, a little more spontaneous, and quite frankly, a little more fun. Listen to next question with me, Katie Curric, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, Charmed, Mallrats, Heathers.

Probably also know me from my stage four cancer diagnosis, and sharing that journey with so many of you. There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking, raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you, to talk about why I feel that cancer, to a certain extent, is a gift.

What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer, because I think that there's something so much bigger than me, and to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's gonna be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dirty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast

or wherever you listen to podcasts. [♪ Music playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background, playing in the background's just across the Tennessee Mississippi state line and she grew up in Mississippi as well. Now here's something that is a dying breed candidly. You grew up the child of a sharecropper. Yes, my father was a sharecropper and my mother was the cook and we were the ones who were in the fields picking cotton. We the children. The children. Yes.

How old were you? From the time I could put a sack on my back, I think I had a pillowcase with my first cotton sack. I probably was about three, four when they put me out there. I've seen so many paintings candidly, and old photographs of, as far as I could see, a field of three to four foot tall cotton plants, and all those white cotton buds,

and then what you see scattered among that field, and the foreground and the background, as far as you can see, are people bent over those bushes picking them up balls, throwing it in a bag. What was that like? I'm sunn up to sundown. They'd awaken us and we load up in the back of the truck and all we'd walk to the fields depending upon how close they were. We load up and we'd hit the fields and back of the truck and all we'd walk to the fields depending upon how close they were. We'd load up and we'd hit the fields and one of the pretty size that you could see as

a one who picked cotton was a pretty feel that had big bowls of cotton. Not the little scrunchy ones. That was easy. Yeah, those were easy, but the others would stick your hands. So we walked the comeback home with cut hands. Really? Yes. So what does a sharecropper do when the crops picked? What after after the harvest is completed? What is a sharecropper day? Well, my father also, he took care of the cows and all of the livestock. So his job was not only to be a sharecropper, but also for the people whose place we lived

on, he took care of the farm, the barns, everything. That's my mother's she cook. So we would in the wintertime, of course, during the summer we had big gardens, we had to put things up for winter. It was a different kind of life. So you're a farmhand? Yes, a farmhand. But how did the pay work?

People are so far removed from this reality that is only two generations apart. I think a lot of people don't even understand how it worked, but my understanding is you provided a place to live on the property, but you're not paid much, and candidly, most of what you make, you end up spending at the company store. Absolutely. We'll tell us how that works. Okay, we would get credit at the store, and whatever my parents made during the season of picking cotton,

and it was very, very little sense. And we really didn't see the money too much. We had a little stipend to get clothes. My mother would make clothes. But we would run a bill up at the general store that the person who's placed, because that's what we called their place that we lived on, and they would pay the bill and whatever was left after the crop came in, which we didn't really ever just know how much it was left. It was whatever. Oh, they did. They did. That's what we had to see. Where this started was in Cochrane, Mississippi. When I was five years old, I hate to use this word escape, but we escaped from that lifestyle.

Because every year, we were told my father, he had this dream to go up north that was a promised land, that we were gonna make enough and bring a big enough crop in this year that we're gonna go to Indiana. We're going to move from down here with other relatives. Some had gone to Chicago, you know, Indiana, Gary, and Anna,

and other places. And they were chasing good paying. They were chasing factory jobs. And that was the promised land to us. But this particular year, the year I turned five, we were told we had one of the best crops. We were told that there was no money left over. And without we had, my older siblings, we had really worked hard. And so my mother, who was a great cook, she devised a plan to sell food out of the back of the trunk of their car.

It places where the property owner wouldn't know what we were doing. to sell food out of the back of the trunk of their car. It places where the property owner wouldn't know what we were doing. So she would go to the black baseball players games and she would sell all of this food and they started saving money. And then all of the branch, they had seen a piece of land and one to two acres.

And they bought that land out of the money. My mother was hustling making on the side. And they bought a gym wall to home. Which is a mobile home. It's a modular home. Well, it's a prefabricated, but it's not a mobile home. It's just pre-fab, but pre-fabric. So after we finished working, after my father would finish working in the barn at night, there would slip away and go and hang sheeprock and just prepared. It was bad and a little piece of furniture. So I could remember in the middle of the night, I was awakened, my cousins, the lights were off.

When I saw the movie Roots, I said they stole that from us because in the middle of the night they covered my mouth because I talked a lot and they didn't want me to make it in the North and I was placed in the car and everybody else was quiet. We had the light self and they were pushing our car and the trucks everything down the road with the furniture in it. And as we got closer and closer when we got out of ear shot It was some hooping and hollering going on bill because we had escaped. Okay, so we were in olive branch now This is 1961-23

Yes, uh-huh, which is the Jim Crow air the South yes, but Your parents I don't even know how to say this, but just to say it, I mean, that it almost feels like a slave escaping. It did, it did. But so when you think of sharecropping, what's the difference in that and slavery really? It's not that much of a difference really.

It's not that far removed because you really someone else is providing for you supposedly, but you're working their crops, working their farm, you're doing everything. And you're never getting anything your own. No house in here. The house is not ours. We were living on their place.

The clothes on our back were ours. The little pieces of is not ours. We were living on their place the clothes on our back were ours the little pieces of furniture were ours We lived in a sendable house and One time there was 14 of us there and All in that little bitty house, so moving to all of branch having our bedroom and it was like we were going to a mansion. It felt like that. And we were never to return to that, but we still had cousins who had cotton fields. We still worked. So we were still picking cotton. I would say they were loan us out the children out to the cousins and we bring the crops in, but this time we were doing it for your family. We were doing it for

our family. So my mother, she was an excellent cook. She worked at the school at one time that I attended as a cook. She would work for the Lions Club. The JC's everyone by the new, the salad bogey head, some of the best food anywhere. Her dream was to own a restaurant which she eventually did. Do you have a cook, Oxdale? Oh, she cooked everything. Lord have mercy. I, for those who've never had Oxdale prepared in the South, properly with the mess of greens and cornbread, you're missing something. Oh, and don't forget turkey nicks.

Oh. With a little gravy on. Delicious. The light gravy, not the dark gravy. Oh, yes, the light gravy. Yeah, you can have dark gravy. No, those turkey those churches. Most people list us don't know nothing about. We need to fix them some real stuff. We do. They need to come on down

home. Come on down some southern hospital. So I have to ask you something before we get to what happened after that in your life. Um, well, here's a spoiler alert. You will talk later about a 30,000 foot view work that you do, which is humanizing those who are current society doesn't always necessarily humanize. When I'm gonna talk about that now, we're going to get to that. But when I hear that that's what your life's mission is now, and I hear just about what you saw and went through with your siblings and the life that your mother and father had to lead to literally escape. I'm just gonna, I can't help it. I'm just unfiltered.

I'm gonna say it. How do, how does that reality affect the way you view the way you fit in society? The way you view the way you've felt in society. For me, my family, my parents, life of survival, perseverance, their faith, the hope that they gave us, and I had a very unique family. We were a family of faith, but my mother didn't see color. She was an advocate. She was a woman ahead of her time. She would fight for the poor whites and the blacks in our town. She only had an eighth grade education, but often you would see my mother show up in court. And she would convince the judge to basically give this person into her care and she'd get them on the right track.

I think it's fair. I think it's worth noting that I know white families whose grandparents were sharecroppers. So there were poor white children. Oh, but sure, for sure, for sure, my mother befriend it everyone. One of the lessons I learned from her was she was such a gentle woman. When different candidates ran for office, she would write a note to the opposing party leader and wish them luck and give them lessons that she hope they do well and for them to remember who they are there for the community. I don't know, but I'm telling you, this is a house that I grew up in. We lived up on a hill a little bit.

Everyone had to sing or play an instrument. So on Sundays, you would hear my sister playing the piano and people were drawn to our house to sing on Sundays. My mother always cooked more than enough food just in case a stranger dropped by who didn't have anything. So I grew up living watching this. She was a strong community leader. In fact, I became just so radicalized during the civil rights movement because I used to eavesdrop on the conversations when she would happen with her friends.

They would talk about things that were going on in this day. And at our dinner table, my mother knew that education was key. So my siblings, our college educated, and I was the one that got married real, real young, but I still managed to take classes and graduate on time, but they really learned the value of education and making sure that their children had a good start in life. But I can say that they modeled the behavior for us. I think it's so important that my father was present in the house in our home. And I've said this and I knew the law is prayer before I knew my ABCs because he truly was a praying man. So I'm very

thankful for the foundation that I had. Even though some things in my life took me in a different direction that foundation was still there and I had seen faith lived out. I seen it walked out. I seen it in cotton fields. I seen it one time so hard and we didn't have anything but a song. We break out into a song to lift ourselves up. I've lived through tragedy. I've lived through tragedy in the community, terrible things that happen while I was growing up. But through all of that, I still, my mother told me, I know we're gonna get to that, but she told me, when I went to prison, don't ever forget who you are.

Don't ever forget who you are, that even though you're going to that place, you don't have to be like everyone else. It was basically don't conform. I don't go along to get along. Remember you're bogan I wish I could have met your mama. I wish you could have too. She would have fed you so good Oh, I would have eaten so good to look at me. Yeah, you know, I would have liked it. So honestly Yeah, you know, I would have liked it. So honestly You've got a mother and father at home. You've got siblings going to college Clearly a lot of love clearly a lot of direction Not wealthy by any means, but you're getting you're getting by you had the initiative, your family had the initiative in Gumpshin

to get away from sharecropping and save up money and buy home. And that doesn't sound like the track of a person that ends up in college and prison. No. And so let's get to how that unfolded. I know you got married at 15 and had a child, but you managed to continue to get your education.

And you ended up going to work for this little bitty company, now called FedEx. But for everybody, Olive Branch is literally a suburb of Memphis. It's one of the northernmost cities in Mississippi. And when you go from all branch to Memphis, you really don't notice any difference. You don't know anything different. In fact, I lived in Memphis for almost 20 years. It was in Memphis from Memphis that I would go to prison.

So there it is. So all branch to Memphis, very similar. And there's this new idea, which is packages getting to somebody if you remember the phrase, absolutely positively overnight. Yeah. Federal service profit. Yep. And it's got named Fred Smith had this cockamami idea that you could build a hub and bring all the packages into one hub,

distribute them and ship them out the next day and get any package anywhere absolutely positively overnight. And it's founded in Memphis, still world headquarters is still here in Memphis, are probably most important employer in Memphis. And you were employee number 166 at this fledgling company called FedEx. Tell me how that went.

Well, as I was getting my education, I married it as we discussed at 15, but I knew that my husband was not going to allow me to go to college. So my senior year, I went to saw your secretary of college. I'm an old to him. And I could type really, really fast. And I was a good writer. You must tie the tie. Files. So he didn't know. Yeah. And thank you. I can tell you something. I could type 95 words a minute with no arrows. Lord have mercy. That's fast. Yes. So that would lead me to many good jobs. And plus I had very good work ethics. So I would quickly be recognized as a good employee. So when I got the job at FedEx, it was because I was working at the Memphis Urban League.

By this time I have five children. Me and my husband, I marriage is going crazy because he still thinks he's single. Yeah, it's a whole another story. Yeah, we'll get into that. He's now brother in Christ, even though we're divorced. But I got the job at the Urban League and Jim Perkins, who was the senior VP of a personnel at FedEx. At FedEx, I huh. He was one of the first few at FedEx. And he was on the board of directors for the Urban League. And his mentee was killed in a car accident, Greg.

And when I came in because the way that I deal with pain and Anything else is I write I love to write poetry So I wrote a poem about how it felt walking into the office that morning and Greg is gone and Someone showed it took it to the board meeting Jim Perkins saw it and asked who wrote this. And I came in, he had tears in his eyes because this was his, it was like a son to him. And he asked me if you could send it to his mother. And he said, you work, you work, you like working here? Yes, I love it.

This was you like to work for FedEx. It was federal express at the time. And I talked to him about my skills and I went to personnel and I set that tight right on fire. And they hired me in the secretary of pool. I wasn't in there six months. I was recognized for my, I'd always had this, this idea that if I wasn't at least 30 minutes early for work, I'm late. And so I always showed up early and I'm the first one and last one to leave if they need someone.

And so my work ethics will recognize that in no time, I was a manager. I was a manager first in computer ops. That was a miracle in itself because I didn't know anything about computers, but I was a manager first in computer ops. That was a miracle in itself because I didn't know anything about computers, but I was a great motivator and people person. And between all of the technical people, they were missing a people person. But it didn't take me long to learn about computers and how to recognize problems because my mind was like a sponge. And because things, my children were my life and my job and they were my family, you know,

plus my faith. So I learned everything that I could and then I promoted again. And then I started training people for management. And then I got a divorce. After 19 years of my life, Canada fell apart. And now, a few messages from our general sponsors, but first, I hope you'll subscribe to the podcast so that you get the newest episodes in your library every week. And please consider signing up to join the Army at normal folks dot us because together we can change the country. And you'll also receive weekly email updates about the Army.

We'll be right back. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in you'll hear stories about bakeries

and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches were kites flying, and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy.

Listen to stories from a village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curric and I'm back with the new season of Next Question. Yay! This season, it's all about being more conversational, but I wanted to mix it up a little bit.

So I've been inviting different people to join me to be my plus ones to ride shotgun, if you will, and sometimes actually getting the driver's seat. I'm so honored to be a year plus one and be your partner in crime. My date today is the one and only Kara Swisher. I didn't know we were dating. I think bringing in new voices will add a little june se kwa, a little judge, to this season of next question. By the way, I'm not totally abandoning the idea of a one-on-one interview. Sometimes that's the best format. I'm hoping it will be more relaxed, a little more spontaneous, and quite frankly, a little

more fun. Listen to next question with me, Katie Curric on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast Max, a little more spontaneous and quite frankly, a little more fun. Listen to next question with me, Katie Curric on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, charmed, mall rats, heathers. Probably also know me from my stage 4 cancer diagnosis and sharing that journey with so many of you.

There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you, to talk about why I feel that cancer, to a certain extent, is a gift. What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer, because I think that there's something so much bigger than me. And to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's gonna be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordey on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast

or wherever you listen to podcasts. So, you were at FedEx how old them? Ten years. Ten years. And you go from the Secretary pool up to fly around the country training folks at different places and some FedEx. Which is phenomenal. You're the daughter of a sharecropper and you end up at mid-level manager at FedEx.

Yes. You had arrived. I had arrived, so I thought. And you get a divorce, and now you're a divorce mom of five. Yeah, and my husband disappears, no help. And for the first time in my life, I'm seeing life differently. Casinos come. Dog track is here. Excitement and otherwise, do a life. I got in over my head be on. And before I knew it, I didn't have a job. My house was about to be foreclosed on them about to Fah Bank Ruffse and life is

going crazy. So you were gambling at it? I was gambling. Really it was I didn't even realize I was gambling at it until the money started going to casinos and dog tracks and not to pay bills. It was exciting. That's why I don't, there's very few games I even played now. So, so when I read that, and I'm gonna tell you something, I love to play poker. I love sit down and play poker, play poker with friends. I used to. I play poker in Vegas sometimes. If I could ever get two weeks of my life, why didn't I have everything to go? I would love to go play in the world, so you're a poker because I really enjoy playing

in poker terms with poker. I love it. And you know, like anything like drinking or alcohol or whatever gambling and playing poker is no different. You know, you've you've got to have a limit You got to keep it. You can't let it overcome you But as I was reading your story I Wondered and I couldn't help but wonder Did you lack

Maybe a little financial literacy at that time for sure maybe a little financial literacy at that time. But sure, well, my circumstance, I will say before then I had good credit. I paid my bills. I didn't have a lot of money left over because by this time I have a daughter that's in college herself and some more in the pipeline that's going to be going soon. But I had no financial help from their father. So I'm really footing everything by myself,

but the gambling gave me an out. It put me into another whole world that I'd never seen before. But now, you know, I look back on it and I was going further in deeper down. You know, once you start losing, you try to win a jackpot. Why you losing a jackpot, I was winning the very thing that I was called chasing. Yes. So then once I was in so deep, I couldn't find my way out and my finances are going

absolutely crazy. I have nobody turn. I have nobody to turn to. finances are going absolutely crazy. I have nobody to turn to. And plus it was a matter of pride too. Because my siblings are all extremely successful. My parents are upset and I just want to be seen as a failure that was pride. I think if I had talked to somebody about what I was really going through. And at times I wanted to even had a breakdown because I was no longer thinking I was really going through. And at times, I wondered if I even had a breakdown because I was no longer thinking, I was spiraling.

I was spiraling the more I looked at the hopelessness of my situation, the more I was going further in. And so when an offer came to me to be what is called a telephone meal, I'm like, I don't know anything about drugs. It's all for came. Do you know? I don't know anyone. The person who I will see and say, what did you tell him? As I told him, no. And he says to me, I said, you know someone is a year you're looking at him. And this someone that I started dating. And I don't blame him because I made that bad decision.

Most people don't know, unfortunately, I do know what a telephone mule is because I've been around some folks who have lived that life. Let's explain to our listeners before we go any further exactly what a telephone mule is. A telephone mule means I was the perfect person. I'd never thought of criminal ideals before my life. Yeah, so I'm the perfect person. If someone comes to town, they're given my number,

they don't tell me who they are. They just tell me this is the number with a code to tell them to call. And I pass the number and I go back to bed. They don't know me. And somehow, in my own head, and I'm not even trying to pretend to be innocent, I knew what I did was wrong. But I kept my conscious by saying, I'm not a drug seller.

That's not who I am. So what would happen is somebody comes to Memphis or any city in the country because a telephone mule is the operator for this. It's the operator for them. They don't know. They're sent by a cartel or someone above them to take these drugs somewhere. That's all they're told. And they're given amount of money because they're a mule. They're autable. They're immutable. And so when they load up and bring drugs and they get to wherever they're supposed to, they're told to call this number. And when they call that number, they don't know who they're talking to, it's you on the line. You don't know who you're talking to. Which keeps everyone safe, who's really the leader who's really doing it. They're breaking

chain of custody. That's exactly what they're doing. And so you have a number that you know, this person is going to call me when they call, give them a number. Correct. Not even give them a number, another number. Just pass it one time. I didn't pass two numbers.

It's just the initial contact. And then I guess they go to that. And that's it. And that's it now they're getting contact with whoever they're delivering to this correct so and you're out. I'm out. No, the first time I got a thousand dollars, I literally kept my life so that we get both food and after that I felt terrible about it. Then my son got killed in a car and a scooter accident.

And this, when everything in my life completely went crazy. You were already hanging on by a thrice. I was hanging on by a thrice. Here I am with my youngest son. He's toy of his brothers driving the scooter. They get hit about another teenager. And the crazy, I'm in the craze, I'm in the twilight zone for real. I don't

even have money to bury my son. It's whatever. I'm sitting on a dark house most of the time in grief. This goes on and in the course of time, the person who was coming in got busted and he had my phone number. And that's when the house of cars fell down. There's so many different things involved in this whole thing. I didn't really know about conspiracy. I'm thinking, my family, I don't have any money. In fact, when I was arrested, there was nothing to be seized. But the people who testified against me had car, seas, home, seas, money, seas. I've got $500 in a vein. It goes through.

But to get past all of that, I learned about conspiracy. I was found guilty of attempted possession because I didn't have drugs and I was offered three years, went to trial and... And when you were offered three years, probably, that's, is that federal time? Federal. So you're offered three years and your life in a tornado. You spent 10 years in FedEx, got this great job, gambling addiction later, a divorce later hooked up with a pretty bad dude that sounds like later, the death of a son later. Now you're faced with, do I say okay and go to prison

for three years. And you don't even have money for, I guess you're faced with, do I say okay and go to prison for three years? And you don't even have money for, I guess you're getting a quarter point under attorney. No, my family. They gathered. They had a meeting. My mother was just tore up. She had no idea that I was involved in something like this. No one in my family knew. I mean, no one in my family had, you didn't grow up that way. I didn't grow up. And plus, none of my siblings have ever had a running with the law. And from all appearances, I've never, and not just appearances, the truth. I've never had been criminally minded. My children, you better not steal nothing. I came to Memphis. I had an opportunity to be on welfare at everything,

but I didn't want my children to see that as an example. So I took that little low pay job, because I didn't want to take money from the government. I didn't want to get a check in the mail. I don't want free stuff. I want to work for what I get. So I'm used to working and working hard. to working and working hard. And this is totally, I don't even know what I'm doing, ignores of the law, is no excuse for breaking the law. And so I put myself in a position to even come in contact with the law because if I had not did something that was wrong, I wouldn't have had to worry about that. that was wrong, I would have had to worry about that. We'll be right back. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much.

Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Katherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time

where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries in the walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches were kites flying and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curric and I'm back with the new season of next question. Yay! This season, it's all about being more conversational,

but I wanted to mix it up a little bit. So I've been inviting different people to join me to be my plus ones to ride shotgun, if you will, and sometimes actually get in the driver's seat. I'm so honored to be A, your plus one, and B, your partner in crime. My date today is the one and only Kara Swisher. I didn't know we were dating.

I think bringing in new voices will add a little june se kwa, a little judge, to this season of next question. By the way, I'm not totally abandoning the idea of a one-on-one interview. Sometimes that's the best format. I'm hoping it'll be more relaxed, a little more spontaneous, and quite frankly, a little more fun. Listen to next question with me, Katie Curric,

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, let's be clear with Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, Charmed, Mall Rats, Heathers. Probably also know me from my stage 4 cancer diagnosis and sharing that journey with so many of you.

There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting me talking raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you. To talk about why I feel the cancer to a certain extent is a gift. What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer. Because I think that there's something so much bigger than me. And to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's gonna be a wild ride. So I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. God Bless. I said this to John Ponder, who I know you know, and he now uses it. There's a vernacular related to the judicial system that people will say, I caught a charge. I caught a charge. All right. Well, John was talking in an interview I did with him months ago, and he was talking about catching a charge, or this guy caught a charge.

He may have been speaking of himself catching a charge. And I interrupt him. I said, John, I got to talk to you about something. He said, all right. And I said, I'd never heard the phrase I caught a charge before I was in my early 30s. I was at an asses and a kid was talking about house cousin got busted and caught a charge. And I said, he what? He said he caught a charge. I said, dude, you catch a cold. You catch the flu. That's something that happens to you. Urna charge. And John started laughing and now John no longer uses the terminology

I call to charge you earn a charge. But the reason I'm saying this is because it's refreshing you want to tell your story because you need to tell your story to explain everything about your life and what you're doing now. But you don't tell your story. And I've never heard you or seen you write until your story. And then somehow allow yourself to be a victim of it or use it as an excuse. You freely admit that you earned this problem with the law because of your own actions. And instead of trying to point blame somebody else and everything else and you know, I think that gives what you're doing now even more validity. Bill, I just don't want anyone to look at me as a victim. The sentence was too long. Now we'll

say that. But that's a broken judicial system. It was way too much for for what I did and never having been in trouble when I looked at people who were getting the same sentence as I received. There were murderers. There were murderers. Yeah. And so from that standpoint, but I really exposed myself to get any sense by the thing that I by self did. Nor do I want any child or my children to make excuses for wrong actions. It's so refreshing and I commend you so much for that because somebody who had been through what you've been through, you could almost justify and understand while they would not accept total responsibility for their actions, but you do. That's one of the reasons why I think you're so aspiring.

So you're all for three years and you're giving advice not to take it to control. My attorney tells me, don't do it. Don't take it. He said they have nothing on you. He said that They gave me a $10,000 bond that others A very low bond the ones who testified against me couldn't get a bond They were held without bail without that bed. They couldn't get a book because they were really the ones doing the stuff They and they had long histories to a head wrap sheets.

I had nothing. He said, we can beat this. He said, where is the beef? Where is the beef? Where is the drugs? Where is the money? But you had no money and no drugs. Right.

So I had fun. But again, you earned that. You did that. That was wrong. That was absolutely wrong because I was a part of it I was a part of this whole thing No, man, but you won't run in any cartel. Oh, sure, but sure absolutely not so we go to trial and It looks like we're waiting honestly

Six you're feeling good about it. I'm feeling pretty good. He's feeling good about it Then we get the note that the jury's hung and they're crying and they're arguing and then they sent a note out, asking what is, can they explain conspiracy? I didn't have conspiracy explained to me either. So that was explained. Explain it to us. It it conspiracy means that you hell responsible for every action this Committed doing the furtherance of the crime Every action not even your other Other people's actions everything you're health so the mule the cartel

Everybody's selling it on the street that guy delivering it to the dude on the corner. You have the candle especially if you go to trial, you're going to get what's called a trial penalty. So as a conspirator, you're associated with every, everything, if I drop a buddy of mine off at a convenience store and he goes in and robs and shoots somebody and kills them. Because he rode with me. Could I be brought up? Absolutely. And so I could. I could. I could serve time for murder. You sure would. You sure would. And so that's the place you found yourself. Yeah. You are involved in a conspiracy. You're going to be called

the Getaway driver. And you're gonna receive the same charge. What if I don't even know that guy's got a gun and he's going to steal? You're still charged, you're cold conspirator. For real, somebody rides with me. I have no idea he's got a gun and he says, let me go in here and get a cold beer. And while he's in there, he tries to ride the place,

shoot somebody, get some or even get it, because I delivered him, I could be brought up on conspiracy. They're not going to believe that you didn't know. Prove it. Prove it. Prove that you didn't know. So they looked at you and said, prove that all you did was answer numbers. Absolutely.

Prove it. These people say, how can you prove a false negative? How can you disprove a false negative? I'm in it. They have my number so and I guess Somebody called you to give you numbers. So you had two sets of numbers, right? Absolutely. I'm tired I'm so you're dead in the middle of it. I'm don't know. I'm dead on the rival that I shouldn't have been fighting but that was part of my journey that I now know that I had

to take. I can tell you this, looking in your eyes, that God did not put me in prison. He used me in prison. So you turn down three years, you go to trial, you're feeling good about, the note comes back about conspiracy They find you guilty and you were sentenced to life plus 25 years without parole and Federal time so people know they're hidden parole right that's why it was without parole because there is no parole and a life sentence in the federal system is called an

role and a life sentence in the federal system is called an un-executed sentence of death because it is executed when you die. Was this at the time of mandatory sentencing on the charges? Yes. So the judge sentenced you to what was mandated by law. The judge had no, the judge couldn't have said they found you guilty out of two, but I believe you were really lightly involved. I'm going to give you three years. The judge has a set of mandatory sentenced and guidelines that he has to give you and he has no choice. They have to give it to you. The only time that I had a choice was to take a plea. They have to give it to you. The only time that I had a choice was to take a plea.

Before the started and when you decided not take the plea and not take the three years, and you go to try. But even while the jury was deliberating, I was offered eight years. I don't like it. Oh, he's you offered me three two months ago. Right. I made about could have negotiated at that point. Did your attorney not tell you you don't take this three years, you could be looking at that point. Did your attorney not tell you that you don't take this three years, you could be looking at life? Never. I never even knew that a life sentence was on the table. So the second form of a literacy that I think plagues people, misfinancial literacy,

but I think judicial and civic, it's judicial and civic illiteracy is the reason many of our jails are full. Would you agree with that? I would. Even with some of the work that I'm doing now, with talking to young people and really educating them too, not just the education part part but really a change of mindset. When you do things, I'm not saying I was a child but I had the same knowledge as a young person doing something

absolutely idiotic. They are doing things now not realizing that this is going to cost them their life. And I want people to hear me. I wish this was video. I am sitting across the table from a beautiful woman who is dressed beautifully, has a beautiful done, has a heart lock it around her neck. Don't sensationalize her stereotype. People have been to prison because I promise you, somebody came across you, they'd never see that. And I got to imagine that the woman at FedEx that grew up the daughter of sharecroppers Never envisioned that there was trauma in your life. You fell in a hole. You made a mistake and

a screwed up mandatory synancing based on drugs because of the worn drugs and sinensing based on drugs because of the worn drugs and Wealy poured vice from attorney You're going to jail for the rest of your life and after you die I guess you get to serve another 25 years. That's the sentence. Mm-hmm. You're gone Your family's gone your life's gone. It's over. You're going to jail and you will never see the outside of the walls, right? That's what they say it and you will never see that side of the walls, right?

That's what they say. And you were held 41. I, um, I just can't imagine at that moment, just that moment, did a spare that you must have felt. It was unbelievable, especially when they took me back to my jail cell and I heard that do a slam. It's real. It was real. And, and honestly, it was my foundation of faith, really, that caused me when I fell on my knees, when I fell down, because I know in who I believe. And I prayed and I asked God to show me my purpose in this, because I couldn't, there was nothing else. How could you find a purpose at that point?

Show me up. Show me point? Show me up. Show me something. Show me something. Show me something. This has to count for something. And so right there, I just made a vow that I'm never going to give up my faith or my hope. And I've got to live life.

I'm not going to allow anyone to take my life. I'm in this situation. I'm not dead. I'm still healthy. And it's got to be something in here. But I guess when I hit federal ground and saw where were you in prison first? In California. I was sent 15. I sent you all the way to California. 1500 miles away from my kids. Well, that was very nice of them. Yeah, that was extremely nice. Lovely. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I never was. What was the name of the prison? It was Dublin, FCI Dublin. It was in Pleasanton, California, up in the mountains. And I walked on that compound. I just got in there and this lady in this wheelchair looks at me. I guess I'm looking around laws.

And she said, what's your name? I told her. And she said, Alice, bloom where you're planted. God knows where you are. A woman in prison in a wheelchair. In a wheelchair said that she's a God knows where you are. And that stuck with me. That just kept walking around.

I kept thinking, God, you do know where I am. And when I said that you might think I'm kidding, I did a skill. You did what? A skill. Did you really? I did a skill. I did a skill because I said, God, you know where I am.

And that concludes part one of my conversation with Alice Marie Johnson. and you do not want to miss part two, the Snell available, as we dive into how Alice actually did bloom in prison. Frankly, I expect you'll be as shocked as I was hearing about all the extraordinary things that she did in prison. I'll see you in part 10. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village

of Nothing Much, like Easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and I'm an architect of COSI. Come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your

podcasts. Hey this is Carlos Miller. Here at 85 Self-Shilts, comedy is King, but we're also here to support and elevate black-owned businesses that are doing amazing things. On our show, the Black Market, I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the game in every field, like sublime donuts. Good day since, Cafe Burbank Street, and many more. So, tune in to The Black Market,

available in the 85 South Show Feed. Listen on our hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy. Host of the new podcast, let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. So in this podcast, I'm going to be talking about marriage, divorce, my family, my career. I'm also going to be talking a lot about cancer,

the ups and the downs, everything that I've learned from it. It's going to be a wild ride. So listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.