An Army of Normal Folks - Alice Marie Johnson: Bloom Where You’re Planted… In Prison (Pt 2)

Episode Date: January 2, 2024

In 1996, Alice decided to “bloom where you’re planted”—in prison. After receiving an unexpected life sentence, she got to work serving her fellow prisoners by helping them with vocational training, organizing plays, the very first Special Olympics events in a prison, and even loving some as they died as a hospice volunteer. And once she got pardoned, Alice’s service has only accelerated. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal Folks, and now we continue with part two of our conversation with Alice Marie Johnson, right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, Nothing Much Happens.

I'm an architect of Cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches wereites fly, and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good

and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210,

Charmed, Mallrats, Heathers. Probably also know me from my stage four cancer diagnosis and sharing that journey with so many of you. There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking, raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you, to talk about why I feel that cancer, to a certain extent, is a gift.

What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer, because I think that there's something so much bigger than me. And to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's going to be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordey on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. At the Planet Money Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

At the Planet Money Podcast, we ask questions like, who decides when we're in a recession? Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about weird schemes and wonderful mistakes, to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, the daughter of a woman who grew up a sharecropper and probably the granddaughter of slaves, if I'm doing the, your mother was probably the granddaughter of actual slaves,

right? Right. Your your mother was probably the granddaughter of actual slaves, right? Right who somehow found the good and all people I Guess that DNA that Filtered down her daughter doesn't surprise me that you would skip in prison You would find some light in the darkest of places and so would you do in prison? I started writing plays and writing plays. Writing plays. That's hilarious. Because I've always loved to write. Yep. And before I went to prison, I did a

few little short things at church. Nothing very long. But I would hear people, I just started writing, because that was the way that I would deal with stuff. And I started writing little skits and putting on shows in prison. But the actual first thing that I did, because they put me in BT, vocational technical, because this woman is unusual. She knows I taught typing, I taught computers. You taught other inmates. Other inmates. Okay, so not everybody that you're around is in for life in 25. Right. Some got three, four, five years. Some a year. And so you start teaching my role. My role. For people to go out to get out. My role was to prepare them for reentry. So I have them redo their resume.

Was it an official role that the prison give you this role? Or just so they gave they gave me that role. I worked in vocational technical and it's something how once people realize that you can do things that give you more to do. Yeah. And yeah, I'll experience that. Yeah, so they realize that once I saw one person struggling with their resume and I wrote them a fire resume and then I got the newspaper and said, these are the jobs that you should

apply for. They said, I don't, I see you should do. And so they started using me more and more. But then I noticed that the women who had long sentences like myself couldn't take the classes. And so they were like, don't waste the time on them because they're not out anymore. Is that why that was exactly why they said they're not giving them a little hope. Wow. That was my question.

Is how do you tell a woman not to hope? How do you tell a person not to prepare for a future so the warden there she really liked me I went to her one what a guard yeah the warden the warden the one the one because she has seen things I was doing in prison I was really trying trying and so I wrote it up as a complaint. I found a complaint about that She calls me to her office and I explained why she looked at me. She's you know Alice She said Miss Johnson. She's you know Miss Johnson. I thought about what you say. You're right As you know one that name was one Reese if you allow the women to take these classes

who have long sentences, a lot of them are getting in trouble because they don't have anything to look forward to. If you're in prison, they were getting in trouble, in prison. Getting in trouble in prison because they are shunned, not allowed opportunities. So for someone who's already broken and you're breaking them more, making them feel worthless. They're actually in a prison in prison.

Yeah, in a prison in prison. So it changed things on that compound. Did it really? It really did. Because the long, the long-sinnanced women, regardless of what their crime was and what they did, if you gave them something to do and to feel effective and purposeful, they quit acting out as much as prison because they had something to look forward to doing.

Absolutely. And so from... That speaks to humanity. It really does. When you can look at someone and say, you have value, you have work. And even the place that I put on, many of the women had never heard a clause in their life. What do you mean? They've never been applauded. They've never been applauded.

No one has ever given them a clause. So to do their part good, to sing, to have their artwork on display, because I didn't do mediocre stuff. I would do page entry. It would look as if they were going to theater on the outside. And when I went to the next prison, the work, how long will you at that prison? Only a year and I shook it. I turned it upside down. you could turn it upside down. That's phenomenal. We interviewed, I can't help it, but you're reminding me of so many things. Deb Elanger is a woman in Detroit who serves food and has homes for traffic and pimped women in Detroit. And the way she thons them is she literally goes out into the streets and gives them sandwiches and food and clothes and

if only for 15 or 30 minutes those women open stuff have someone to talk to and they eventually open up But the thing she says that she makes sure she does every time before she leaves as she looks looks everyone was one of us, and she said, you are loved by God, and your life has value. And when you want to get out of this life, there are people that care enough to help you find that value. And then they leave. And she said eventually, they come to her, and they get out of that life because they've just never been told by anybody that they have value and you say it's the same thing. These people have never been applauded. They've never been applauded.

They've never been applauded. They've never felt good about themselves. They've never been recognized. The power of that. The power of even encouragement of showing love to someone else who don't even love themselves When I left there after being there a little over a year. I was at cars well the next prison for 15 years And where was that in Texas footwork when I got there it was so depressing So many women were in wheelchair, somewhere blind,

some had no legs, some of them were mental in the hospital part. So this was FCA Federal Correctional Institute Medical. It was a medical center, but they had built high rises because the female population was exploding and less than, at that time, it was five years, but in 10 years, it had increased by 800% women. And they didn't have enough prisons,

so they had to build high rises and other prisons to bring women in. And we were quadruple bunk, quadruple bunk buck for us in this little tight space that you can even stand side by side. What's going on in our society that our prison population has increased by 100 percent? This should tell you something. In the United States, we account for less than 6 percent of the world population, but we incarcerate 25 percent of the world population. but we incarcerate 25% of the world population is our laws. To

be honest with you, a lot of it is driven by the private prison industry. Their stock, when things fail in 2008, when everything was crashing, you know what went up? Prison stock. It's like trading humanity. So what are you lobbying for tougher laws? Of course, of course, they have their, they are very strong group because in their contracts, when they get a federal contract, a private prison facility, in the contract, their guaranteed 90% of the BS would be feel. And if it drops to 80%, then the government has to pay them

what they're losing. So it's like, are they going to lobby against themselves? It's, it's not right, but it's what it's one of the things, and there are so many laws on the books now. The recidivism rate, even when people get out, is so easy to have a technical violation and be locked back up again. But my life at Carzwell, at that medical center, totally changed because there's a whole building with unhealthy women. There's a floor of women who are dying. There's a hospice unit. I ended up taking hospice training when I discovered that unit and I would, many times, they would allow them when they got to the end of

their days at the very end, they would give them the opportunity to ask for an inmate to sit with them, because I was a volunteer, I got trained, I never thought I'd do something like that. So I was so busy, because so many of them would ask for me to sit with them. And so- And you sat while they died?

I sat with them, I'd read to them, I sang to them. Why? Because I was given, I was so that I was going to die. But not just because of that. To be alone and to die alone, with no family around you. To me was about the worst thing. They didn't come there to die. They got sick or they came in sick And that was the only medical facility for women in the country

So if you were dying you had had to come to cars well So you got transferred there because the population Was the prison population was exploding and it had empty beds. It had empty beds. So you went there to keep the numbers off? Absolutely. A lot of women were still in what they call the pipeline. They were in county jails and so they couldn't be moved to a federal facility

because there weren't enough. So they had to be more so they could get the women out of the jails and get them into a prison sale on federal property. So really for me, sitting with women, it was an honor for me to be able to help someone transition. But it also became when my father passed away, I had to stop because it was too emotional for me to be with him because my father dies suddenly while I was gone. You said you never thought you'd find yourself working in hospice, but you did it because you just never

wanted to see anybody pass alone. Right. Which is so kind, really. It's the depth of your kindness. I think, again, that's some of your mom's DNA coming out in you. But there's this one particular story of a Catholic woman that was in hospice, I think in Texas, right? Right. Sure that with us.

Well, previously I would always work in the chapel, volunteering, I find my way back to the chapel. So I knew about the songs that they were singing. And every time I would have a new patient, I call her my patient, in hospice, I'd find out what is your fate? Because I want to read to them. I want to do something for them. And you want to honor their faith? I want to honor their faith.

Yes. And so this particular woman, she was in a comatose appearance. Her mouth was open. Her eyes were staring blankly. And when I arrived there to sit with her, they told me that she couldn't hear and that she didn't understand that she wouldn't comprehend anything. She was in a coma, basically a comatose state. And her family were no longer visiting her

because they couldn't stand to see her looking like that. So I found out she was Catholic. So I just started seeing, to her, I was seeing a lot to the women. Or I'd read from their passages. I'd keep them, you know, I'd just communicate with them anyway. And so while I'm singing, 10 p.o. day, which is Lord have mercy. I'm singing. Oh, Lord have mercy. Oh, Lord have mercy. As I'm singing, oh Lord have mercy on me. A tear started running down her face.

And I walked over to her and I started singing again. I stopped for a moment and I said, can you hear me? I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said, if you do blink once and she blinked. And I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said if you do blink once and she blinked and I said Do you want your family to come and visit? I said some other things But I had her blinking so I ran out and got the nurse and I told her that this woman It's she can hear she understands she literally was trapped in her body She can hear, she understands, she literally was trapped in her body. And they contacted the doctor and then they did some other tests with her, with the same blinking,

and her family was able to come back to see her, and they spent the last days with her. And so that was just really the power of, of, and if you don't think you can make light in the darkest of places like prison, that story is metaphorically, I mean, you were able to reunite a dying woman with her family. When, when even the trained professional said she was catatonic, they did. And through just some general care, compassion, love, you were able to communicate with her. I was able to communicate with her. They knew me for sitting with the women when they were in hospice and at found days. So many women had the opportunity to ask for a special, one of the special volunteers that's who they want with them. So I spent a lot of time in hospice because a lot of them wanted me to sit with

them. I'd hail their hands. So here's an interesting thing I read that you did, I think, when in Texas, was special on the Texas rouseville? It was in Texas. There's Texas. You wouldn't think of Special Olympics in federal prison, but somehow, I guess when you make plays and everything else you did in prison, why not, Special Olympics, but tell me about that. Well, there had never been a Special Olympics in prison before. Well, shocking. But, you know, seeing the women who were on the franches who were not involved with anything,

I decided I want to help bring special Olympics. So we created a hip-coordinate events for them. Even one of the women I asked her, Anna, I said, Anna, because she didn't have any legs, she lost them in a car accident before prison. I said what do you miss most about? Not having your legs and she said miss Alice I miss dancing. So I said well you going to dance again. So for part of the entertainment for the special Olympics to honor them as they were getting their

medals and a dance with me. I created a dance to the song Never Give Up and I taught her how to use her upper body and as the other women used their legs and upper body she mimicked and she was in the circle she was cried and was so beautiful. The Special Olympics, national heard about the Special Olympics that was being done in a prison. So I had no idea that they were coming out. So they came out to see our Special Olympics medals being awarded, and they also saw the entertainment,

they also saw Anna Dance. they also saw Anna Jans. And so they gave me an award called the Special Olympics Coordinator of the Year Award. I've never heard of anything like that. I think they made it up real just to give me something. We'll be right back. Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy and I invite

you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches were kite fly and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy. Host of the new podcast, let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, Charmed, Mallrats, Heathers. Probably also know me from my stage four cancer diagnosis,

and sharing that journey with so many of you. There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking, raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you, to talk about why I feel the cancer, to a certain extent extent is a gift. What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer, because I think that there's something so much bigger than me.

And to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's going to be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. At the Planet Money Podcast, we ask questions like, who decides when we're in a recession?

Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, seemed to have a mascot. Did food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about weird schemes and wonderful mistakes, to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the I Heart Radio app,

or wherever you get your podcasts. The place that I would write I would have to do four performances. I would do one that was strictly for those in the medical building. If you saw how those women would dress up, they dress up like they were going out on the town, creases on everything, hair done, makeup on. I'd put little flowers we'd have made on their wheelchairs. I used them in different roles so that they could be a part of the rest of the community. But my my life in prison, I can honestly tell you, Bill was not wasted.

I was able to bring theater. I discovered I would hear, they tell my sister who's here with me today. Some of the women would tell her, Alice, we were, when we saw her come in the first thing I say to them is the Lord has need of you. That was my getting them out here of voice in the dining room. And I said, I need that's the exact voice I need for this role. And so the plays became so huge that the people on the outside started getting tickets to come into the prison to why are you kidding? I am not kidding.

That's great. When I left, I just this last prison, I went to Aliceville. Is that Alabama? In Alabama. Which is three and a half four hour South East. So you got closer to home. I got closer to home.

I was there five years cars, well, 15, the other prison. If you know, and some change a few months over those years everywhere, at the different places. But I went back to Aliceville to be their keynote speaker at a graduation in October. Hold it. We're going to get to that. Okay.

So you're an Aliceville. Yes, I'm an Aliceville. And you're still doing, you're trying to make value of your life and and affect positively this population that you're a part of. Right. They really have incarcerated women. Incoscerated women. They really have to me though. Bill is something about when you serve other people, when you try to encourage them, you encourage yourself. Man, we talk about it every single show, but you get a thousand times where out of this kind of work that you put into it. You do. You honestly do. But you're

doing that. And you're an asshole. I mean, but you still, you have no hope of getting out. No, I've been trying hope of a life in prison. You're going to make the best of it. But I never stop fighting. I will steal foul emotions and get into that. My family will steal rock steady right there beside me, fighting with me. My daughters went to the White House to different convenings. My sisters were doing proud vigils, candlelight vigils, bringing attention.

So I started here. Hey, nobody says you didn't deserve some jail time for what you never say. Nobody, but all they're saying is life. And yet in 21 years, seven months and 10 days, you were released. Yes. How did that happen? I started speaking at different colleges from prison, which is crazy.

It's crazy. They Skyped me into Yale University to speak to the law students. And you're speaking about prison reform. I'm speaking about clemency. I'm putting my face out here and telling my story. It's interesting that the prisons would even allow you to do that. They did it. It wasn't.

In fact, they were clear the room and they would tell the other prisoners be quiet because Miss Johnson is speaking at this place. And of course, the prisoner knew he was, so they would actually be quiet for you. Oh, they did. I had a lot of children because women have female prisons. You don't really have gangs. You have families. And I had a bunch of kids.

All right, so now you're from prison talking about clemency, prison reform, truth and sin and sin. All of this stuff, the law students. The law students, what was that other word that got you the conspiracy? Yeah, all that. That'll ugly word. Yeah.

And so you're talking. I'm talking about this, but the prison said, Ms. Johnson, you will let you do these things as long as you don't speak negatively about the prison. Well, of course, I'm not going to do that because like Joseph, everything that was done was placed in my hand, because it will be excellent. Even the staff things that they're having events. Get Ms. Johnson to help with some ideals. I didn't put in the whole thing together. And so I was no trouble.

I was never been in trouble in prison. I was very trustworthy. The things that I did were putting play zone. None of that was ever for sale on the compound. I was squeaky clean as they say, a model prisoner. I'm taking all these classes, even though I have a live sentence. I'm leading the path, getting people to sign up for classes. I'm taking them electrical. I'm afraid of fire. And I take electrical.

Dude, I said something I always wondered. Do prison guards know what you did? Yes. Because they have your rap sheet. So even prison guards know. They wanted me to go home. That's my question. They did. The prison guards, when I came out, they were so happy. They were so happy. It's a prison that guards themselves knew you didn't have those. They didn't. And every time they see someone get clemency, get free, they will be so sad.

Miss Johnson is going to be your time. I either miss out, but they got to see who you are. You have no business here. And people, I think that gave people hope too, because when they found out the women who had short sentences found out that I had a life sentence, it was like, she's either crazy or. Oh. This lady's crazy.

But anyway, you're speaking to college. I'm speaking to colleges. I spoke to YouTube and Google event. On criminal justice and someone heard me speak. He said he walked in late, but when he walked in, he seized this, me up on this big screen. He hears my voice and he said, we have got to get her to do a video op-ed.

Do you think that's possible? I had never done that before. But I did the video op-ed. It would viral.'s possible? I had never done that before, but I did the video op-ed. It would viral. I didn't even know what the word viral meant. I thought I had introduced a virus into the internet. What? But the other thing is,

do you have access to that in the prison? Yeah, we had, we had gotten video visitation. Okay. And so that's what I would be in there doing it at a time that people weren't there. I got it. So this thing goes viral. It goes viral.

And somebody whose name we heard. Somebody whose name that many people know saw it the second day. And she saw it and she tweeted out this is so unfair. She retweeted it. And it went from being viral to Kim Kardashian made it go super viral over 10 million views and she contacted her attorney to find me to ask me if I want to get out of jail wanted her to hire her to get me out of jail I said let me think about it

yes and so you know the rest is kind of history. Kim. Well, hold it. There's a white Kim Kardashian cannot get you out of it. That's what I'm going to tell you now. That history part. Kim contacted Ivanka Trump, who showed my case to Jared. And this is the first time that anyone has peeled back the layers and actually read what I did. And they went to work.

They called themselves Team Alice, Kim hired new lawyers. She brought in new lawyers to put different set of eyes on it. She brought in a local attorney here in Memphis, Michael, my show, to see what he could do to the course and the other three were to help prepare a clemency paperwork and fight for that. So for seven months they kept trying to get an audience with President Trump on my birthday. They found the gatton and Kim and Sean Holly went to the White House and met with the president and seven days later I was running across it, wrote, free.

That day that you have your prayers answered and you, honestly, most people would have thought never happened and you get out of prison. What was that like for you? Would it feel like? Well the day that I was got the news that I was getting clemency it was hamburger day hamburger It was a Wednesday and that's the only time that we got hamburger so I was a hamburger treat Oh, yes, it was a treat to get a hamburger. What was the other food? You don't want to know okay, okay mystery me hamburger hamburger and chicken day

We're things that I look forward to but I just wanted to feel normal and the women were so excited because my face is all on the news said it might happen today and As soon as I took that bite bill they called my name to return back to the unit. And when I got to the news, it was Kim Kardashian who told me she thought I knew that I was going home. All the women were screaming because I was screaming and an hour and a half later, I heard my name over the intercom. Alice Marie Johnson report to R&D. What's R&D? It's release. It's where you get released from. I've again with the D. But it's

release. It's release. Everyone knows that R&D is where you are. So the whole jail knew you got. They know they knew. So they were screaming. They had locked the whole compound down. I didn't know it. all these reporters were out there from all over the country. They had satellites, so they had locked everyone down for me to walk across the compound. So when I started walking down the stairs, they started stomping first. It was three building. It had 1,600 women total. And they're all stomping. They're stomping.. As I start going down the stairs, they could see me when I was on the top as I'm exiting my building. Women in every window had their cups beating the window and the stomping got louder and louder and louder. It really, it truly sounded

like an earthquake. It felt like the ground was shaking. And they were being, and it's almost like it with one chorus, they were screaming and crying. Miss Alice, please don't forget about us. And when I took my hands and put it up my heart and made the motion that I was ripping my heart out and throwing it to them, they went crazy. I'm telling you, Bill, I think the ground was moving. And as I walked out the door, the officers headed to R&D were lined up in

two different lines on either side of the sidewalk and they stood at attention for me. You're kidding. I am not kidding. What an honor that both inmates and guards alike celebrated your release. They did. And as we passed through the lower security facility, which was the camp, the same scene, all of the women had left out of the camp because it was a minimum out. They weren't locked up. They were all out there with the guards. They were waving, once again, guards standing. As I'm passing by and the

women were screaming, saying, I love you Miss Alice. Don't forget about us. Even one of the ladies who came, his come home now. I didn't know what happened, but she fainted. She was so overcome. And you made good on your word. You hadn't forgotten about it. I have not fighting every day for fighting every day for. Do you pinch yourself? I do. steal. I'm going to tell you, be able to think that really lets me know that I'm really free. It's when I wake up in the morning. I do this every morning. I don't just jump up unless the phone is ringing or some crisis is going

on. I just lay in my bed and look at the ceiling. I do this every single morning. I look at the ceiling because I'm no longer looking at a bunk bed over my head. And that kind of centers me that I really am free. We'll be right back. Tune in to the new podcast, stories from the village of nothing much. Like easy listening, but perfection. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai,

and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, Nothing Much Happens. I'm an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys. Old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly and pretty stones are found.

I have so many stories to tell you and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast,

let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know new podcast, let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, charmed, mall rats, heathers. Probably also know me from my stage four cancer diagnosis and sharing that journey with so many of you. There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking, raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you,

to talk about why I feel that cancer to a certain extent is a gift. What my responsibilities are as a person with cancer, because I think that there's something so much bigger than me, and to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's going to be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dirty on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen

to podcasts. At the Planet Money Podcast, we ask questions like, who decides when we're in a recession? Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about weird schemes and wonderful mistakes, to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. After 21 years, seven months and 10 days in prison, that you might should have been in prison

for two years for. Maybe. Do you ever dream or have flashbacks that you're still there? Yes, I do. That's trauma. It is. There are certain things that that I didn't realize how badly I could be triggered. Because when I came out I immediately started fighting for the freedom of others. Sometimes when I read others' cases to

to really get into the meat of how I'm gonna fight for them, that would trigger me into a nightmare. Something that gave me one of the worst nightmares though was on October the 7th of what year? This year. Okay. The war. When I saw the captives, I went to be it and I was. We mean Israel, Hamas.

Israel. And I was we mean Israel, Israel when you saw the is the the Hamas guys catching the Israel. Yes, when I saw this woman that hit capture and I was shaking. I went to I went to sleep that night and I was at woman. And I woke up. That was the first time I have not just had a

regular nightmare, but had a crying, such a crying nightmare. I was so broken. I woke myself up sobbing from seeing that. There's a reason I ask. I have to believe that that's largely universal among people who spent an extended period of time in jail. It has, there's no way that you can, it is trauma to spend that time in prison and to think that you just come out and you can, you know, some people say, don't look back.

I have not only look back, I've gone back. And how can, how can I get the, I get the perspective of, don't look back at life ahead of you, whatever. But that's almost in the same vein of if you're broken of the hood and you want something out of your life, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, which that sounds good. It sounds good. But that ain't the way it works. It's not because we're healing and we have memory. You can't I can't just erase my memory but for me Bill I actually did find purpose in prison. I actually did

find forgiveness for others and forgiveness for my for myself too Having gone there and been away from my children So when we first started talking I said repeated actually something you told me before we went live which is Histories for not and everybody's listen to everything we've talked about right now your story's phenomenal. And everybody's listened to everything we've talked about right now. Not only is it a lesson of redemption, it's a lesson of forgiveness, self forgiveness, determination, being steadfast, it is a lesson of just so much.

But when I asked you to put it in an elevator pitch, you said, now repeat now, you want to humanize those who are current society doesn't often necessarily humanize. And the reason I asked you, do you have flashbacks of the trauma of incarceration everything else is because we talk about recidivism and why. And, you know, the same PTSD that affects Marines and folks in Army when they come back from war and they have a problem reaclimating back to a non-military society, that PTSD of that and a former incarcerated returning citizen, the two PTSDs are different for sure. And the circumstances under which us people receive that trauma is different. I'm not likening someone who served our

country in the military to a prisoner in that regard. But the level of PTSD can be the same. It can be. And reentry and getting rid of that trauma, even though you owed a debt to society. Once that debt to society is paid, we as a sideier supposed to be forgiving. We as a sideier supposed to say, okay, you did your job, you did your time. But how does that person reactimate and how can they reactimate when they are not in fact humanized? Yes, that's true. That's why I believe that I've been given this honor of this huge platform because of the way that I came home the people who's involved when I came home, but also

the work that I've done since I came home. I made a promise to the women when I left that I would never forget about them. I would never stop fighting for them. That fight includes fighting for their children too to stay out of not to go to prison. And so I've really lived up to that. I've been honored all over the world, honored at the United Nations as one of four women's rights defenders of the only one from North America on International Women's Day. I've been honored by Ebony Magazine as one of the 100 most powerful blacks of America.

I've spoken on the essence power stage. I've spoken in other stages. I went to Tokyo not long ago and someone one of the dignitaries wives recognized me and invited me to come back and help them launch criminal justice reform for women. The first one. So my voice has reached many. My fight has been sincere. There's no way that I could go come out of that and just go and just live life and have a good time and know that there are people, women and men who are dependent upon me to be out here, reminding people that there are people just like me that I'm not unique. There are other people who deserve a second chance.

We are country that extends. We want grace. We are a country of second chances, a country that believes in redemption, but somehow feel when it comes to prisoners, that same grace is not extended. Instead of saying this person by their name, they'll say, that's a bank robber. And then they drop their heads and shame, or that was that former drug dealer. I saw some kids, some young men when I first got on what they call Conair. This young man looked in my eyes. I was on

my way to prison and he didn't even look as though he was old enough to shave. He was shackles because we had on way shackles, rich shackles, ankle shackles, some had on black boxes also. And I asked, called for just one moment, I wish I knew that could find that young man because it was that look in his eyes and that just tear that road he couldn't stop it. She just looked at me, I don't know who I reminded him of. And then he just shook his head. look at it. I don't know who I reminded him of and then he just shook his head and he kept shuffling on back to the back of the plane as we were being transported. I never forget his face and the look in his eyes and I thought that was some key. I don't know what he did but somewhere someone dropped him and then pick him up. He fell through somebody's crack.

He probably never heard any applause. He probably never heard it in applause. And I have thought about him over the years, over and over. And sometimes, feel when I'm so tired, I can put images back in my head and that keeps driving me because I've been giving the gift of freedom. Talk to me about the importance of the first step act The first step act was actually the first the most significant criminal justice reform in 30 years and

My partisan by the way that part of look what our country did that That was Paterson by partisan at least one thing. Yeah, and the reason they called me the face of it, because my release, when people saw me, when the president saw me, it changed hearts, because I was not the stereotypical. And ironically enough, the spresser Trump were talking about. Yes, absolutely. And a very divided, democratically controlled chorus that we're talking about. That really came together. a very divided democratically controlled chorus that we're talking about.

They came together. Overwemmingly passed it. And even when President Trump was endorsing it, he said, I asked for censoring reform because I don't want there to be another Alice Johnson. And for that, over 30,000 people have come home early and contrary to what is being said, they are not the reason for the crime problem. They are not reaffirming. They are not.

Now let me give you these statistics of crime that has taken place in America. Those who came out on the first step act account for 0.0143 percent. Not even a half a point. 0.014. 95% of the people who are incarcerated are going to one day come home because they're going to be finished with their sentences. Would you rather them come out through the first step act that makes sure that they have gone through reentry programs, they're prepared to re-enter society, they don't just open the door and say go home on the first step act. They have to be carefully vetted to make sure that they don't pose a safety risk in the community, to make sure that they have the skills necessary to get a job, they connect them with others,

they do a lot of things for the people coming home on the first step at. So for those who are crying to repeal the first step at, it's idioticity, it's insane. It is, it is duplicitous, stupidity. It is. For anyone, and it is, it is duplicitous to pitted. It is. For anyone and it's, I know somewhere, there's power and money behind those decisions because it's always got power and money behind them.

It is gotta be. But I couldn't agree with you more. It is stupid because if you're let out under the first step act, you were probably going to be cleaner than folks that had ever served any time. You do it right. There recidivism rate is less than a fourth of those who are coming home anyway.

And many of those are technical violations that send them back to prison. They would want everyone to go through what the people have to go through who come out on the first step act. So I'm really championing their causes. In the process of telling the stories, success stories of people who came out and made good of their second chance because somehow we have got to come back the narrative that we need to go back to a punitive and not a restorative type of model because that is what we need in this country right now. We are not the worst country in the world, but our criminal justice

issues Sure to the rest of the world says that we are the most evil country in the world to incarcerate 25% of the whole world. I am not a hopeless person. Me neither. I still believe, I still believe in this nation. We can't fix though what we don't understand. We can't, but you know it starts with us. You mean normal folks?

Normal folks. We'll be right back. into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast, Nothing Much Happens. I'm an architect of Kozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries in the walks in the woods. A favorite booth at the diner and a blustery autumn day. Cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys.

Old houses, bookshops, beaches were kite fly and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from a village of nothing much on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast,

let's be clear with Shannon Dordy. You may know me from, let's see, 90210, Charmed, Mall rats, heathers. Probably also know me from my stage 4 cancer diagnosis and sharing that journey with so many of you. There's something so authentic about a podcast. It's me connecting, me talking, raw in the moment. That's what my goal is to give you. To talk about why I feel that cancer to

a certain extent is a gift, what my responsibilities are as a person with cancer. Because I think that there's something so much bigger than me. And to be honest, I'm still trying to find out what that is. And maybe together, we'll find it. It's going to be a wild ride, so I hope that you all tune in. Listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. At the Planet Money Podcast, we ask questions like,

who decides when we're in a recession? Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about weird schemes and wonderful mistakes, to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tell me about tag. Tag is an organization that I formed in 2020 when COVID hit because I was working on climate. Good timing. Yes. I had to be able to find the people. It's called taking action for good. And I was able to help so many people get their freedom because they found me. I didn't have to go out and find them. And then once I started seeing success,

the first three people who I helped gain their freedom were three of my good friends in prison who didn't even know I was working to have them gain their freedom. Wow. And I started getting all of these petitions. Have they reoffended? No. Of course not.

No, they have not. You know, we don't allow them to. They've got to. What do you do to not allow them to? The ones who have come home, they become mentors for the ones who are just coming home. So they have contact. They have someone that they can ask, what do I do in this situation? That understands their abs and their reality and their trauma.

Absolutely. But just even more so than that, they were so vetted and we were so connected with their families. And even now, I've met with different governors. I met with one governor. And I spoke to him about Jerry Atchard, cleanysies with those who've aged out of criminality who posed no risk and he let them go on his way out the door. And I've been able to meet. It's something when you meet with someone, you look them in their eyes and you remind them, remind them because some, some

have had a bad experience and they forget that we live in an imperfect world. It's so easy to say this one over here came out in the first step. Let me hold this up as a reason you don't need to do it. Or this one over here, reoffended. Let me hold this up. It's so easy to become jaded. Yeah, it's one in not many. But it's easy to become jaded. Yeah, that's one in not many. But it's easy to become jaded. I want to give you an opportunity to speak to the devil's advocate that I'm going to give you right now. Okay.

Crime is out of control in many of our cities and it Memphis it's up. And I mean, it's up. It's up. New York, it's up. Chicago, it's up. Crime is up. I mean, it's up, it's up New York, it's up Chicago, it's up, Kramas up, I mean, the fact is Kramas up and the criminals are getting younger and younger. And frankly, it's a little scary.

It's getting more and more violent in a lot of places. And we see stories all the time of smashing grabs and in San Francisco, 30 people breaking out the door of a macy's and running in and grabbing stuff and leaving. And uh, jewelers getting broken in the middle of the day and they're smashing the grab and taking jury. And you know, at some point, a law abiding tax paying trying to do it right, raise your children, do the right thing, citizen of this world, surrounded by all of this gets scared. And when they're scared, they default to the easy thing which is Bill Morgel's lock them up.

And keep them there forever because you can't do anything with quote these people. You want to speak to that? because you can't do anything with quote these people. You want to speak to that? To paint everyone with this broad brush is so wrong. And just like the failed, I'm going to repeat that again. The failed war on drugs. That is not the answer. That is not the answer with the smashing grabs. You've got to get in.

We've got to not be afraid. We've got to take the lead. Us grown folks. We've got to take the lead. And it starts with one community at a time. You see, we're looking at this as a whole. And we think we can't do anything. It's so big. Fear will paralyze you from making that first step

of just, okay, I'm gonna work in my neighborhood. I'm gonna start with my neighborhood. I'm not gonna try to solve the problems of every city in America. I'm gonna start with my neighborhood and let's us gather these kids up. Let's us start doing something. Let's us start showing them a better way. Let's us get in their heads and let's find out what's driving them to do this. If you can break up the kids and not just let them go and say, glad it's not my kid, it is your kid because it's your neighborhood and it will be your problem and it will be your problem we ordered I'm gonna repeat

what you what you stand for what ordinary people can do I know the power of the ordinary person we're not trying to be heroes we're not trying to be famous we're not trying to be heroes, we're not trying to be famous, we're just trying to make whatever difference we can make. And it really, it has to be us saying, yes, I'm tired, I'm scared, but that fear is going to drive me to be a part of what's going to be the solution for Memphis. And clearly, if we're 6% of the world's population and have 25% of the total prison population of the world and our crime is doubling what we're doing now ain't working. It's not working. So just like the laws I talked about that keep families broke up, just like the truth and sinnancing stuff that is scary, just like the mandatory drug laws. Well intentioned, but they ain't working.

So that's trust something else. And there are answers, but each community has a different answer. Someone who's listening tonight is somebody's answer, and they don't even realize it. That's beautiful. I am, I'm so inspired by you. What are you doing now? What are you doing today? What are you doing this week? What's on the agenda? What's next? Oh my agenda. I have a big family. A lot of them are coming in for Christmas. Yep. We're going to have Christmas dinner together.

Then we're going to have two days later. We're going to have a little Christmas swore rafel grown folks. You got to be over 30. They're not wrong with that. Can anybody in your family cook like your mama? I cook pretty good. Do you really? What you cooking? Are you cooking for Christmas? I'm cooking turkey.

I make bread. I make desserts. I love to bake. So I'm a good old biscuit maker. Yeah. So one of them days they're going to come over to my house and they're going to have some salmon croquettes and Biscuits and some

Mother potatoes and pork chops mother-in-gravy my wife make some of the best fried pork chops. Oh, I love them I love them. I can eat a mess of that until I want to die. That is so good You know Bill, I really I know you asked a little bit But I I just would like to ask the listeners if they like to support some of the work that I do. That's why I'm going next. But support us at taking action for good dot or if someone wants to get involved with you, how do they reach you? They can reach me through our tech website. Just shoot me a note.

I can, I can put them to work. If if someone out there has someone that's been in prison far too long for something that they got it not that they didn't earn the charge but the sin and sin is too long and they're languishing in prison for something that they have served their time for. Can they reach out to you and find out how to get out? and they're languishing in prison for something that they have served their time for. Can they reach out to you and find out how to help? Absolutely can. How? Taking action for good.org. They can email, tell us about the case, someone will answer them, and I'll get some details for them, but we really do need some support right now, because we are scaling up because my next front

chair in addition to that is gotta be I'm coming for the children to have them. I want to be part of the answer right here and Memphis right in Olive Branch. I want to be someone's answer. The power of an army of normal people from the daughter of a sharecropper to someone who's been in front of the United Nations and governors and Kim Kardashian and the Trumps and was the center of probably the most effective Bob Hartison legislation we've had. We figured out how to muster in the last eight years. Alice Johnson, you are amazing. You're ademptive, you're inspirational.

And I just cannot thank you for your time. But thank you, Coach Beale. I didn't expect to have this honor to be right here with Mr. Undefeated himself, but Oh, for God's sake, I am. Look, I'm telling you. I'm telling you, I'm a little starstruck. Don't be starstruck.

Just a little bit. Thanks for being with us and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you. Merry Christmas to you too. Thank you. And thank you for joining us this week. If Alicebury Johnson or another guest has inspired you in general or better yet to take action by donating to taking action for good by serving prisoners, by fighting for criminal justice reform or something else entirely. Please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at billatnormalfokes.us

and I'm telling you, I will respond. And keep emailing us all the story I did. It's been unbelievably helpful and satisfying to tell these stories that come organically from you, the Army. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social, subscribe to the podcast, rate, and review it, become a premium member at normalfokes.us, all of these things that will help us grow. And Army of Normal Folks, I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week.

Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much. Like Easy Listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nicolai and I'm an architect of COSI.

Come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Shannon Dordy, host of the new podcast, Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy. So in this podcast, I'm gonna be talking about marriage, divorce, my family, my career.

I'm also going to be talking a lot about cancer, the ups and the downs, everything that I've learned from it. It's going to be a wild ride. So listen to Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dirty on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, this is Carlos Miller. Here at 85 Self-Sale, comedy is King. But we're also here to support and elevate black owned businesses that are doing amazing things. On our show, the Black Market, I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the

game in every field, like sublime donuts. Good day since, Cafe Burbank Street, and many more. So tune in to the Black Market, available in the 85 South Show Feed. Listen on our hard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Listen on our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.