An Army of Normal Folks - Arshay Cooper: Inner-City Rowing (Pt 3)

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Arshay grew up on the West Side of Chicago and his life was forever changed when he joined the first all-black high school rowing team in the nation (and became the captain). As an adult, Arshay found success as a chef before returning to his true passion by starting inner-city rowing teams. He’s the author of “A Most Beautiful Thing,” which was made into a critically-acclaimed documentary by Common, Dwayne Wade, and Grant Hill. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, it's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal Folks and we continue now with part three of our conversation with Arche Cooper right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Let's now return to Arsha on one of his crew members. There was this kid named Alvin. He was in the biggest gang in this school. Which was? What was the biggest gang? Um, it was Travel Advice Law.

They called the set S-O- A straight off Albany. Tell our listeners what the nickname is for the neighborhood because of all the lords. Yeah. So, um, there's a gang called vice lord. And vice-lord broke broken to many lords that the neighborhood is called

Holy City because all the gangs were vice-lords. You had conservative vice lord, travel, vice-lord, insane vice-lord, conservative vice-lord is what are they like Trump? Vice law. They vote for Trump. No, they were more like, you know what I mean?

Like, I guess they would say they have more organized in the other games. We're not just going to beat you down, but the funny thing is, you got for a reason. Because we have this document you need to sign before you're beat down. We have this document you need to sign before you're beat down Because as you know you broke rule section 14b now Sign this and get your ass equipment so they were all Divisions of lords and everybody was something Lord something Lord something Lord and people actually fern to each other as

Vice Lord, but then they's called each other? Lord. Like, what's up, Lord? No, I was telling Lord. I was going on Lord. No, man, you know, it was, it was Lord. And then it became ironically enough, the most unholy of holy situations became... Nicknamed holy city. Holy city. Holy city.

And I think this is a important piece of the story to help people understand this gang life. I told coach, and it came up, you know, why is it going to probably talk about this? I said, Alvin shouldn't be in the gang because he's fighting, I mean, he shouldn't be on the team because he's fighting people, beating that people. He's like, nah, he's strong. He's good. He's strong. And I was like, it's toxic, you know, but he's been coming to practice. And he's been training with us. And the first ship to you like him, we real talk. Were you afraid of him a little bit?

Oh, yeah, definitely afraid of him. You know, you know, I mean, see this to beat people down with his crew. And I remember we go to Philly and I said next time on the bus, I said, I see him. So I just got one skater showing up every day. on the bus, I said, I just got one skam and showing up every day. And I said, Alvin, why are you, why are you, what's up with all the fighting, beating up people? And we rode, I rode, he actually rode right behind me. So we started to build a little connection.

What is that? He's at the seat behind me. He's at the seat behind me. I got you. And so we rode in pairs. So we started to build a little connection And we started talking a little bit, but just like basic stuff, you know what I mean? And I said next to him on the bus and I said hey man, like why are you fighting? And he said man listen

I have never had a fight because of me. I've never started a fight When I first moved here Me and my brother would jump. I attend people and I just told my brother to run, get dad, run, I take it, I take it. And he said, when they, when they finished jumping him, a guy from across the street walked out to him and said, listen, this is always going to happen. When you go out of town, when you leave, it's going to happen to your little brother. Unless you help us, you would never have the help. And Al said, I did, I had to make not a bad choice but a challenging choice for myself and my brothers. And so every fight he had, he had to help someone

else who were getting into fights just so he can so he can always have the protection his little brother can have the protection when he's gone. All right, here we go. Breaking down stereotype number 17 in the episode. There is a belief that these kids get into gangs because quote, they just need a sense of belonging. There may be some truth to that in some respects, but that is not then my experience. My experience is they join the gangs because they're scared to death getting their ass hooked.

It's very not that they want to be part of that. They would much rather be part of a team or school or nurturing situation or grass or green or something. But it's all that's available to them and if they don't, they often become the victim of the very gang that they subscribe allegiance to. It is dangerous being in a gang, but it's even more dangerous dangerous being in a gang but it's even more dangerous not being in the gang. So it's just a reality. It's a survival mechanism. I say in the film, the big question is not what college gonna go to but what game you're gonna join for protection. That's the big question. People listening to this need to just let that marinade a little. When your dream is to eat it's a pulty or go five miles from your neighborhood just to see a serious tower and that your reality is not where you're going to college or kind of job you're going to have

but what kind of, what, which gang are you going to join? And then you don't understand after hearing that and you, and you can't get your arms around that there are people in our country that simply don't have the same privilege of freedom to grow as other people in our country. freedom to grow as other people in our country. Doesn't speak badly about anybody else. It just speaks to the reality of situation of guys like you and where you grow up. Yeah, it's desperate. Yeah, secondary education already done.

White man, he said it, it spoke to me, he said, if more people look like me, if more people live downtown, it wouldn't be tolerated. Wow. And I guess I should, do you find that true? I find it true, you haven't been hanging out with those guys. You've been in practice every day. And that just shows that talent is everywhere, but access and opportunity is not.

Alvin brother said in the film, when they tore down the YMCA and that half them often because of funding. He said I ran to the streets. I don't care if you white, black, Hispanic, Asian, there were 150 kids at that YMCA. That's what the counselors, the coaches, the mentors were at. And now it's torn down. It's 150 kids hanging in the street. So it doesn't matter what color you are. If there's 150 kids hanging out with nothing to do, it's crazy stuff that's gonna happen. So you know what I mean.

But Roe came and put Rant to the rowing team. And so you talk about the outlaw for two hours. Like what are you running to? Like why are you showing up to practice every day? Why are you showing up to rowing every day? You know, it's a respite. Yes. It's an escape.

It's an escape. And then through the hook of the respite and escape, little by little, you kids didn't realize what you were actually gaining, which was experience you wouldn't have other had, otherwise had in teamwork. And my guess is, I mean, I've rode a John boat across the lake before and that will wear you out. And my guess is, if you're with other guys trying to go fast, I mean, it's core strength, it's arm strength, it's cardio, it's, you know, so there's both physical and non-physical attributes to a successful roar. What are those? Yeah, I mean, I mean, height helps being tall, but, you know, I think the, it's, it's

a lot more than the physical piece, right? Like being along or being flexible or being strong, but I think the most important attribute is like, for some people understanding, as a follow, you have to learn to be a leader, as a leader, you have to learn how to follow. Because you're all in unison. Because you're all in unison. You know, I learned and rowing that I cannot do

the work of eight. I have to find eight to do the work of one. And then we get the job much faster. And it's not about you. It's about the person who's sitting in front of you and the person who sits behind you. And the discipline, show up every day, understanding that the chemistry that you have in a boat

doesn't just happen in the boat but it's what you do outside of the boat. When you're asking each other questions like, what keeps you up and what keeps you going? Personal questions, when Alvin told me that I was like, from this day four of it, I will always pull for you. You know, when you're willing to get personal, when you see someone that's working hard and crying out there, ripping apart their hands and breaking their backs for each other, man, that is something that Alvin always wanted and was looking for. Later in the film, and not to tell the whole story, I start showing up at his house every morning before school, walking with him every day to school. He's the best man in my wedding. You know, that's what sports does and that's kind of just like, honestly, what we need it,

you know? We'll be right back. So when you join when when when the white boat and the white lady and the everybody showed up, you were, were you a freshman or a sophomore? A sophomore. Your sophomore. Yeah. So this led to three years of, of, of rolling. Mm-hmm. How good did you all get? We got good.

I mean, you know, I say this, we got really good. We got really fast. That came to a point where we lost Preston, who was amazing, but he said, man, that I'm like, I was doing good, I was learning a lot, but his mom was still a drug builder, and he said, the streets were calling. I saw what she was making, you know? And he was a great asset to the team, and we lost them.

It was Malcolm, it was the strongest guy on our team, and his dad was like, no, you can't be on the team and we lost them. It was Malcolm. It was the strongest guy on our team. And his dad was like, no, you can't be on the team, man. I want you to do it. You know, his dad, brother was hung on the tree in his self. And Malcolm had to sneak to practice. Dad just never agreed with him. You know, he just didn't want him on the team. Why would he?

He was just like, I don't trust the space. Right. I don't trust the space. And so we had to recruit other kids, right? So we were always at the same time in the constant state, me and Alva in the constant state of rebuilding. And then we got more competitive

and we got a new coach and we got faster. But I think at the same time, performance wise, not only preparing to be good, it was real hard at the same time that we still had to go back home and we were losing friends. And we still had to worry about stuff at school. We had to still worry about the mental piece and, oh my God, my cousin got shot. They all out of it. Oh, man, man, my cousin just got killed. I can't go to practice this week.

God's like, you know what? I got to help my mom work. I got to miss practice this week. You know, I got a babysit. My mom got to work a double. We had a lot of that to deal with. We were, we were strong, but we had a lot to deal with. Once again, not the same reality as your competition. So what do you do after you graduate high school? Man, I graduated high school. I dedicated a year in my life to full-time service with the AmeriCorps. I wanted to do more.

I wanted to dedicate year in my life to my community. And I learned that from just like, that was one rule that Coach Victor, he was the black guy he had. He said, um, leave the Bullhouse better than you found it. And he said that when I was the captain, I became the captain of the team. By the way, football coach just said that about the locker room, so I'm the captain of the team. By the way, football coach You said about the locker room. So leave the locker room there and you found it. Don't leave your crap laying Yes, yes, and I used to stuff another very valuable

Yes, I used to step over it all the time step over is I know you leave the ballhouse better than you found it Even if you didn't make the mess and I would say well How does that teach responsibility to the person who was here before us? He was like in in our poor house, you leave it better than you found it even if we didn't make the mess. Cause it makes it easier for the next group. And he's like, you'll get it.

And when I learn, it's like, man, like, some people would say, I have nothing to do with what those black kids were doing, you know, when the cops beat them up. Oh, I had nothing to do with what happened in the South 200 years ago, you know, I have nothing to do with what happened in the South 200 years ago. You know, I have nothing to do with the kids who have mental health issues.

I have my own kids to worry about. We step over it. But we benefit from this country. And so we can leave it better than we found it, even if we didn't make the mess. It makes it easier for the next generation. All right, that's awesome. Say it again.

If we can leave this country, our community, this world better than we found it. Even if we didn't make the mess, it makes it easier for the next generation. Do you love this country? I love this country. How do you feel when you watch people kneel during the national anthem as a black man? As a black man, I understand because But you love this country. I love this country. But that's disrespectful. It's not disrespectful. I mean, here's why because. Oh, but it is disrespectful because everybody says it is. Talk to me about it. Talk, talk to me about it. I want you to explain it to me. I want to explain it this way. It's a little bit of what I said earlier. I don't know if I would have thought this way? I don't want you to explain it this way. It's a little bit of what I said earlier.

I don't know if I would have thought this way if I didn't have the interaction with the kids that became my friends, the White Private School kids. The moment that I was walking from the boat house in the White neighborhood with my friends in the cops came and they looked at my, open my book back and they emptied it I was like what are you doing in this neighborhood? I used to they used to happen to me all the time in my neighborhood that I would say to myself okay because it's a bad neighborhood it's a challenging challenging neighborhood so of course I think

I'm gonna look through my stuff because people got guns I did think about that as a kid and then when I was in this good neighborhood, when there was no violence, it still happened to me. And that's when again, I said to myself, like, man, like I volunteer on the captain of my team, I pass the Constitution task, I know the declaration of independence, I know the preamble, I've never been to a school of never gotten trouble. And then when I asked my friends that this happened to them,

the white private school just they said, it had never happened. And I realized, I said, you know, I went to a baseball game and I saw in the national anthem with goose bumps in my arms. And when I asked other people who don't look like me that they didn't experience what I experienced or who I considered an American hero,

it made me feel like I was living in a difficult America. what I experienced, who I consider American hero. It made me feel like I was living in a difficult America, and it doesn't mean that people who grew up like me are disrespecting it, we're trying to help people understand. So who is your American hero? My American hero is the grandma, it's the pastors, it's the educators, it's the normal people who are trying to just leave the

boat house better than they found it. Is George Washington worthy of our price? I don't, I don't look at it. I don't, I don't know if I look at it that way. I without him, we don't have a country. We don't know if I like it that way. I... Without him, we don't have a country. We don't. That is.

He also owns life. Yeah. It was also 200 and whatever, 60 years ago. How do we balance that? From a Black dude, from the West Side of Chicago that admittedly made friends with white kids from the nice part of town. You have a very unique perspective. Yeah. So I think I will tell you so so many, especially in the South, but so many white folks, again, it's like

the white privilege thing. They do want to understand, but they also were very off put by the degradation of people that we see as founding fathers because 250 years ago, they were slave owners. And people have a hard time balancing, you know, how do I check myself and learn and be real and become present and cognizant with the reality of the plight of a lot of black folks from inner cities, but also not not allow what I do believe a positive heritage from the people who found our country left us. How do I balance it?

Hmm. It's a hard balance, you know. And to be honest, I think, ugh, I'm still working on that, but I- Rowan, and people make disagreements, you know, agree with me. Like Rowan taught me, you know, in rowing, you row forward by looking in the opposite direction. That is so. I learned that it's okay to look back

as long as you keep pushing forward. It's been a trouble pass, you know. And it's okay to acknowledge that these things happen and there are Generations of trauma because some of it, but you have to keep pushing forward So AmeriCorps for two years that's cool, but I I read you You learned to cook a little bit somewhere where'd you where'd you go? You went to culinary school or something, right?

Yeah, I went to La Cordon Bleu and... Where? I started off in Chicago and then raised a little bit of money to take some lessons at La Cordon Bleu, England, which was amazing. And I have to say, is that in London? Where's London? London, England.

That's one of my favorite cities. Oh, it's such a godly, you're all in London. So you went to culinary school in London. Yeah, and from what you do, you dreamed to see Sears Tower five blocks away and now you're in London. Cooking? Well, I have to tell you this. And I think it's awesome to have great,

like those entrepreneurship classes really help. But culinary was introduced to our high school for anyone who wants to learn how to cook, but I only went because, you know, we didn't have a ton of food. So I was like, yeah, yeah, you get to eat what you cook. So, and I realized I was really good at it, and I was like volunteering on the weekends. And not only volunteering on the weekends like the Hilton or Hare, our teacher really hooked those up with some really great internships. And so I was growing and doing some internships and racing too and doing a lot.

And then when I went to the quarter of blue, I was like, man, I got a lot of pay for this. And I was like, can I need a plan? And what I decided to do is I got a job at the Starbucks in Little Italy, which is one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Chicago. And that's what all the men goes in, you know, lawyers, doctors, everyone. And so I'm there and I'm meeting all these folks. And I'm like, Hey, my name is Arche. Every now and then my coffee's on you. And they say, Oh, if you ever need to

dance, it's I got you. If you're a doctor, I got you, if you need a lawyer, I got you. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. How's your family doing? And so I went up, I went to this restaurant called Blackbird. It was a French restaurant. I talked about it in my book. And I said, can I work, you know, this is Chef Paul Conn, just won the James Beard Award.

And I worked for free. Can't actually, it got me hooked there. And he was like, yeah, I was like, I'm just cutting mushrooms, I'm cutting carrots. Simple stuff. Best restaurant in Chicago. I go to my school and I accidentally helped me make some business cards and I found five good guys from my class.

I go to Starbucks every day, I make these cards and start putting in the sleeves of the Starbucks cups. That's hilarious. And catering to families, couples, and everyone else. And they say everyone's like, you know how to cook? You're a good chef. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna look for it up blue. And I work at Blackbird.

You work at Blackbird? I didn't tell I was cutting onions for free. I was like, yeah, I work at Blackbird. And I started getting a lot of business. And I was making money and I was paying these guys at school $10 an hour. I was making some dough. And so that's how I was able to pay for that trip.

And so from there, I got a job. And I said that to say that after La Corde de la Blue, Sky-Name Bob, it's Sky-Name Jeff, Link Me Up with this guy named Bobby. Bobby was head of hospitality and cooking for the world wrestling entertainment. WWE with John Cena, the rock, all these guys. And you're cooking?

He was like, and I go for a job. And I tell him my story about entering for free at a sport where there are no cheerleaders, there are no busload of fans, but you're just rowing. The Starbucks story, the Blackbird story. And he said, because of what you've done as a 16, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, your kid is the reason why you have the dream job today. And that's what always tell young kids what you do today, what you do now matters for your future. Man, that is a long way from a bowling bar or a footballer, chitlin's to relate to.

As a long way away. So then you like cooking it, did it wearances? Oh, one of WB, so I was doing like cooking on food sets. Yeah. We're wrestling entertainment. The whole thing. Yeah, doing catering and like. So I mean, you reaching a dream and then you say,

you know what I love this is great but I'm called. That happened during that Chipotle story when they asked me you got to tell these kids your story you're here and I was like no when I went home that night after thinking about that kid I am not everyone faces Goliath in their youth. I didn't deal with my trauma. I just buried it. When I talked about it, you buried it alive. It's always there when you don't deal with it. My mom being a drug addict. Not saying the word, Dad, a day in my life. Teacher told me I was going to die before I was 18. I fell in the eighth grade.

All that stuff came back when I went home that night and my swanky New York apartment. And I had a moment like when hope and the ability to change the world, like that feeling that comes upon you is not always present. But when it's there, how do you take that moment and go with it? It was almost like when you was the kid at night and you watch a commercial at like three o'clock

in the morning and it says feed these starving kids in Africa or more or feed the abuse dog. I was gonna say the abuse dog was what it gets me. All right, just feel free. And then the number is on the bottom. He's like, oh my God, I gotta do something. I gotta do something and then your show comes back on. You start laughing, oh my God, I gotta do something. I gotta do something. And then your show comes back on. You start laughing, you fall asleep,

you wake up, you gotta go to work and you forget about everything that you just saw the night before. Right. And I had those moments every time I went to church, I went to a gala or to an event where I was like, I gotta do something. And then I got distracted by the need

and I fell asleep on the knee. I forgot about it. And I didn't want that to happen because that's your pole A story just stuck with me. And that's when I started writing my first sentence. It didn't start off that way. First sentence was, my mom was a drug addict. And I was like, gosh.

And that's when I wrote the story of the fan. Wow. And that's when I started writing my book. No, no, no. And I get your, you know, start to write the book, but you don't have any fame. Nobody really knows your story. And you start working yourself out of your cooking career and into your current, I don't know what you would call it, I guess, non-profit, the law of the career, I guess. Yeah. So, you know, what was, how did you, how and why,

what precipitated you walking away? I call it, like, you know, I returned home to the place that gave to me. I didn't move back to Chicago. At first, I actually started going back, which is important to the story. I decided I would volunteer with that group at the school. It's a charter school. And start working with them and

Giving them the same answers that was given to me and then I went to another school Called east side community high school and I was like man these kids need rowing You know and so that's when I was like I called up concept to you and I was like hey, I want any rowing machines I need to keep as like called up cannae. I need some rowing machines. I want to teach kids how to row. And so I started rowing program. While still slowly cooking work my way out of job. And I'm still writing. And um, they started rowing team. You're writing. You're still cooking. So you really transition transition. And eventually I stopped cooking because more people was like, are Shay come to my school? And he's gonna pay like $100 to speak at a school $150.

But that was a lot for me to just tell you the story, you know? And people start hearing and then someone said, hey, I want you to speak at the US Royal Convention. And that's when it exploded. People are like, oh my God, this dude got a story. Like, you got to come to my book house to help me, help me bring people together. We are a program in a white community,

but we need to, we want to engage the black community. How do we do, how do we do, how do we go in there? What do we do, you know? And so I started helping in that area, and then I write in my book at the same time. And it's good because I forgot a lot of the water terms and so being around that helped me to write it again. That's interesting because probably as you're writing, you're reliving.

You're reliving. And as you're teaching, it's helping you writing. Yes. I mean, the whole thing is kind of organically marinating. Yep, marinating and I finished a book. I shop it to eight editors and publishers. They all said no. You didn't win gold. You didn't win a championship. You're not a writer. And that's what a lot of knows. And so I was like I'm going to self-publish it. I'm going to hustle.

I was a hustler. It's a self-publish. Yeah, it's the same guy that was putting business cards inside the... Yeah, I have no doubt that you were going to hustle it up. And so I'm dropping books off everywhere. Mel and books to everyone. Folks in the Olympics, like sending the books to schools, probably, and now I'm getting all these calls.

We love your story. We love your story, we love your story. And they got into the hands of Mary Masio, filmmaker, Olympic Roar, who said, I want to turn this book into a documentary. My friend, Grahill, I want to bring him into the producer. And Grahill got the way in, and they got common involved. And the buzz was picking up. Our Shay not only wrote this self-publishing book during this film, but he's doing work

with kids who grew up just like he did. And the kids are going to college. And they'll come speak. That's when the big publishing house in Macmillan was like, we read your story. We want to do it. We want your book and we want to get it out to a broader audience And they did and I started seeing the people the books are winning awards and I saw people who I pitched a book for it to retweeting

And And so from there to film got out and people loved it. It was amazing It changed lives and brought in more money to help the foundation. Which gave you now the platform. It gave me actually work the foundation. Nice cities later. And good news this year. Our Shae Cooper will be going to South Africa and the Bahamas to help launch a new prime program.

That is so cool. That is fantastic. We'll be right back. Incredibly, Arche's book, a most beautiful thing, was then turned into a great documentary by Dwayne Wade, Grant Hill, and Common. And he and his high school crew members did something pretty unusual during the filming. You guys have a reunion row. Yeah, reunion row. And if I get this right, I will let you tell it, but I'll just lead it in.

I think one of your teammates, that an ankle monitor, or the other, that they'll, and the cops were not part of their reality and then you and your brilliant bright mind decided, yeah, let's roll with cops. Talk about it. It's so cool. Yeah, you know, while we was filming, there was two things that stuck out to me. First was the mom said, there's two fears they have. My black son interaction and a different neighborhood in our community. My son interaction with white police. And I was like, me being a person who loves to preach hope and go after things.

I said to my husband, what can I do to reduce the fears of our moms? I know I'm helping with these communities, but I got to do something about the other fear. And I know that there's some things in this world, I want from Rowan, there's some things in this world you won't see unless you do it. And I said, I talked about that quote that Rowan taught me that I can't do the work of eight, but I need eight people to do the work of one. And we get that much faster. In our community, there are black activists working with educators, preachers, business owners, and grandmothers, politicians. But why not? The cost because they have to work their every single day. Seven people pulling the eight, you'll move, but you won't, it won't move effectively, unless the

eight is moving. And so, in the cops, one of those, like in the cops is the one of the eight, and they're in our community. And so I told the guys, I was like, listen, I think I want to get cops to row. And they were like, yeah, yeah, we can roll again, Stim. That boys can be over here. And our people can be over there. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I said, you know, as a teacher,

you will always forget some of your students. But as a student, you'll never forget your teacher. And we have our opportunity to be a teacher, to teach them something about us, about this sport, and bring them to the same water where we didn't get along at first, where we literally hate each other. And somehow it became a place of healing. And to be real with you, I made that decision based on building the bridge. They made the decision based on survival. If we interact with them, and they get to learn our teenagers, who wear their hoogies and sag their pants, but great kids, then maybe it will change something.

For them, I found four white cops. And man, it wasn't, it was awkward at first. It was very awkward. But in order to have alignment, you have to readjust the lands. You have to be able to talk to each other. And to move anywhere in the boat. You have to be moving each other to move anywhere in this world. You have to be moving together. And I told my story and I wanted to hear their story, but I have to say this because it's not in the film. It's not in the book. It's not anywhere. There's a scene where the guys were wrong with their kids. Did you know cares how to row? Before

that scene, after that scene, we was going to do the scene with their kids. Did you know cares how to row? Before that scene, after that scene, we was going to do the scene with the cops. The cops came with some of their kids. And what broke the awkwardness is that when the cops kids and the guys kids all got in the tanks and they were pulling and they were having fun and they were talking and it wasn't a care or disconnect in the world And it was a learning opportunity for all the adults Who have in their heads. This is the way it's supposed to be. Oh, this is our brotherhood and there's that But that was none of that. No actually the kids in the boat is the way it's supposed to be. Yes Yes, that's right. Yeah, the kids in the boat was way supposed to be and

Everyone was like, dang, like this is the way it's supposed to be. Like they taught us, they didn't even know. And that's when we all got in the boat. And I was coaching. We invited the Olympic coach out. And we started moving together. And we had conversations that were uncomfortable but was amazing. And the most powerful part was Alvin who was my best man at the wedding who was fighting who served four years in jail later on in life

because he shot at someone who beat up his sister, officer Lou. Officer Lou didn't even know how to swim. We didn't even know it. And he's scared. Hold it. The white dude didn't know how to swim. He didn't know how to swim. You mean, you mean, you mean that happens?

That, that, that happened. Well, there's another stereotype just destroyed by you. And I heard Alvin say, sit tall. Like, I got you. Here's this guy who's done four years. Here's this copper front of him that has a lot of fear. And Alvin's like, dude, I've been here. I got you.

And every since that day, the way both of them gravitated towards each other was something I have never seen. This unlikely lifeboat changed these guys' life. There's a guy in Las Vegas named John Ponder, a 20-year criminal from Brooklyn who ended up finally going to the federal penitentiary because he robbed a bunch of banks and do a long series of circumstances and what he would tell you are blessings. He's come out and he started a reentry program and the recidivism rate that his organization experiences is like 10% against a national average of somewhere around 80%.

Those numbers are close on. But the point is unbelievable, successful. And you know what his success he attributes to is that the returning citizens from jail that are parole are like lots of these organizations, work life skills, learn how to do internet and email and learn how to get a job and go on interview. The difference with his is each one of those guys are matched with a Las Vegas Police Department, man, or woman, FBI, whatever. And what John said that I've never forgotten to me is what happens is the cops start seeing the convicts without the orange jumpsuit on and the convict starts seeing the cops without the badge on and when the starts seeing the cops without the badge on and when the when the jump suit and the badge is erased, all you have are two people. And I got to believe when Alvin and the cops and the whole

mixed up crew was going on, the cops weren't did have a gun or badge on, right? And through rowing they got to just see each other's human beings. And that's what Malcolm said to the family. He said, what's it got out of those uniforms? It was cool. They go back home to families and wives and kids and in human beings and they saw us the same. And I would say the most powerful moment of all they have volunteered with me. They helped me bring what we're going back to the high school. I went to California and they showed up to help. I was just at New York Western University and he also showed up to help like they've been there.

But the most powerful moment is that we filmed this in 2019, 2020 when George Floyd was murdered. We have this group chat because we all chat at all the time. You mean the row your row guys in the cops? So now you're going to race together. Because we have one team, we have one eight, we race together. There goes the neighborhood. There goes the neighborhood.

And a beauty of that, when we race together in July, to have a tent of like their colleagues and their kids and our boys from the neighborhood and all together cheering us on. And then you get a guy from the neighborhood to look, I say, this is my son, like he's so good. I mean sometimes he has bad days, but he's great. You know, the conversation was just cool.

It was cool. And he was making jokes. Like, hey, cops give one to guys. Hey, where does why? I know you always wear white. That's not what you're talking about. It was like all these jokes, right? But that's when race doesn't, when you can joke about it all these jokes, right? And like, but that's when race doesn't, when you can joke about it with the show, it really does that.

Yeah, I know it was, it was awesome. The powerful moment when George Floyd was murdered and I started messaging with the guys, and right after George Floyd was murdered, we did a top a segment on a today show and with those guys. And one of the cops said, he said when George Floyd was murdered, I was working downtown in the protest and had a ton of

bricks thrown at me. And he said, I realized that day, through our relationship, that I can go home and take my uniform off but you can never take your black skin off and I said thank you for saying that how do you have that conversation with your colleagues and that open a door for some really courageous conversation with us and there was always a turning point in a good way because we always had a mission. One mission in mind is to keep kids safe both of us, both groups. And that was times of like, well, you need to see this is the way I see it. You don't understand when a grandma calls and say he has a blue sweater, you see

your kids a blue sweater and grandma got robbed and grandma got hurt. We have to make a decision to take all three of it. You know what I mean? Like helping us understand but also telling them, Hey, man, Alvin joined the game because he had to help others and they were like, Oh my God, he didn't make bad choices. He made tough choices. Like the conversations, what conversations that I can't have at a protest.

But once I invited him to my boat, my barbecue, because they work in our neighborhood eight hours a day and they need to learn our names. And I want them to hear my story. And I want to hear their story. That's when we started to connect. So the way... You mean when you're just human beings.

Well, you just human beings. And so the mistake we make in our country is that we do too much calling out and no calling in. And you, yeah, you, you, you, but it reminds me of Alvin. If I were to saw him the first time, he's like, hey, you don't it reminds me of Alvin. If I would have saw him the first time, I'm like, Hey, you don't need to be on his team. He would have sucked me in a jaw. But I called him in. I said, next to him on the bow. I said, next to him on the machine. And I said in my book, what I love about Ken, my coach is Joe Skype, University of Pennsylvania. What he done

differently is that my relationship in school with security guards or teachers that I only heard from them when I was doing wrong. Mm-hmm. Talking at me. And then when I had a bad day, they would say, tell me what's the problem. What's going on at home? I'm not telling you. Right. But Ken made the posits. When you go to a bank and make a deposit, you can't get it, you know, you get a withdrawal. But you can and make a deposit, you can't get it, you know, you get a withdrawal, but you can't get a withdrawal if you don't make deposits. And so when you have coaches and people making deposits in your life, and when you ask

what's the problem, you will always get a withdrawal. And so I learned to call in, I learned to make deposits in cops like, so when I say, hey, man, tell me about your own Floyd. I always get withdraw because I'm making deposits. We'll be right back. If we're ever going to ale so much of what divides us as a country, which is not just racial, it's racial, it's political, it's faith-based, it's abortion, it's all of it, right? But what scares me so much is that whopeness, cancel culture, and political correctness makes us really afraid to be willing to talk because I might say something that is a talking point for one group or another and then you automatically sum me up and assume you know exactly who I am

What I think where I'm from and I what's you know and in tool we break down those barriers and talk like White cops and black row people What a row people called oxman or something or some horsemen. Yeah, there it is Row people Right, but What I'm saying is is that is that I'm so I am so anti-cancel culture, woe this political that, not because I don't think there's a need for us to watch our tongues and how we approach one another because we do.

But because I think we at the pendulum has swung so far in our culture now that it is prohibiting people that aren't just like each other from simple having, simply having real civil conversations about the stuff that matters and without that, we're never going to be able to learn the humanity about one another and grow. And your story illustrates that when those barriers are removed, the phenomenal growth that can take place. So what are you doing now? Man, I have a national foundation. What's it called?

A most beautiful thing, Inclusion Fund. In the last year and a half, we introduced 2,000 kids of colors to this waterfrying. In what cities? In Baltimore, D.C., Chicago, Newburgh, New York, Wake, Texas, Stockton, California, Philadelphia, New York, New Jersey. Y'all gonna screw up, Rowan. Y'all going in, y'all gonna end up making Rowan look a whole lot different. Yeah, you know, I was it is so cool

It's good, you know someone told me I'm In the interview they say so I'll show you it's amazing. You're changing the face of Rowan and I was it and you know what I Would I told them it's like you know what though? I don't want to change the face of Rowan. I want to add new faces to Rowan And it's a beautiful thing. Cause the history of sports have told us that you're the serena Williams of rowing man. Man. And you know, I, I, I, I want to do so much more when I roll in my neighborhood bill, just

like when people watch your doctor neighborhood. Yeah, you know, or when I grew up, I don't want people to say that's the author or that's the chef or that's the roer. You also don't want to be the black roer. Yeah. No, you don't want to do that. Yeah. But I want people to say, you know what, that dude, that's the hope for my community. That's the hope for our kids. When I think of some of the greatest leaders, like MLK, I don't think about his career as an educated preacher, but I think about the hope that he runs in his. I don't think about his career as an educated preacher, but I think about the hope that he runs in his country. And I think about Harriet Tubman. I don't think about career as a union spy, but the freedom that she brought to so many people who look like me,

or even Gandhi. I don't say, oh, the attorney, but the peace that he brought to so many villages. Can I ask you a question? I hear what you're what you're saying and I think it's cool and you and you evoked Harriet Tubman and MLK and Gandhi, all people that are black and brown. Can you evoke a would you in just natural conversation of Oka white hero? Yeah, I was gonna say mother Theresa next. I was gonna say mother Theresa next. All right, but what about a white male? Yeah, absolutely, man.

I mean, I think that you hit the term white savior, right? I think that we all have the ability to be heroes and I think that Ken was a hero and Ken now part, that's the guy with team, Bob Mouskowski, who started the baseball team program. They were heroes. I think that sometimes where it gets it you people should never take away the work that the work and the love that a white man had brought to a neighborhood. A folks who don't look like him. I think what people will the right people would say, I've been doing this in this neighborhood and I don't get the media attention that that person got because it's different.

And there's ways to address that, but we should also take away the work that can and other other men like you have done. And at that moment, I lost sight of that. But it changed when I spoke to Seattle scholars. And this white dude said, I have, this was reason I have 60 white men on my team. And I'm working to change that. But 40% of these guys said they're here because of R.S.A. Cooper. Okay. That is perfect.

And what I'm getting to is you naturally evoke heroes. And you said, ML King and... Mm-hmm. Clondie and... Yeah. That's it. All right. And I think if I'm sitting, asking a white guy,

he's gonna say, fix him white people. But it's just natural, right? Yeah. I mean, if a white dude, yeah, I mean, maybe it's, I don't know, if it's baseball,

it's Bay Bruth, right? Yeah, you're, yeah. Who would be your hero in baseball? Yeah, Jackie Robinson. Right. Right. Okay. If it's football, maybe Joe Montana, who's yours? Oh, well, you know, that's, you know, for me, it's Chicago guy. So I was going to say I was thinking this water paint.

Yeah, I was going to, yeah, yeah, it's so many odds of a water paint. Yeah, why not, why not make man? Why not but because. Yeah. He loved the film, by the way. Okay, but you see my point. I see a point. You know where we got to get where white people and black people don't even consider race when they think about their heroes, but we don't get there until we can have the conversations and we don't get there until people are not

surprised when they see Black kids row. Yeah. Wow. And you're part of that solution. Right. That's the listen. Your life is part of that solution. I mean, what bought more DC, all that stuff. I mean, that is just so cool, but we can't get there unless we can talk and figure out each other's humanity, right? You're right. I have to say this last thing. I mean, I don't know how much time we have. I got a call from a librarian they said, we bought 300 bucks. We donated to a school and a school had just seen your movie, Arche Cooper, you need to come here. I said,

okay, okay, this was, oh, no, six months ago. I said, okay, okay. And they said, no, we need you to come. I said, okay, where do I need to come? They said Alliance Ohio. Where? Alliance Ohio. I was like, that's gotta be in the middle of nowhere. I was like, where's that? And they said, you got to fly to Pittsburgh and drive an hour and a half. Until Alliance Ohio. Okay. I fly to Pittsburgh. Pick up my buddy Matt from Pittsburgh. We drive to Alliance Ohio. Five minutes left in the GPS. and that's Confederate flags everywhere. I'm like, where am I? I told you a U-turn.

You know. And so, you know, I go to the school. And I'm thinking in my head. Are you driving that school thinking to these folks? No, you know what? Well, he said I need you. They need you. I was thinking in my head that they were kids who looked like me.

Because he was like, oh, they got to, you know, they got to meet you. This is, I know where you're going. Yeah, yeah, and I walk into the school. Don't see a kid that looks like me. But they would share me on like I was the brunt James. Me as some, was it as white as your high school was black? Yes. That white white I mean like white kids and I've heard of rowing white and they were like white kids And they were about country country

Man in the first kid I Have these kids messages on my phone from Instagram because they have the best messages I ever received. I haven't received so many amazing messages. The first kid stood up and said, Bill, thank you for your story because I have unlearned everything that my parents taught me about people who look like you. I couldn't even finish the rest. I started falling. Oh man, I was like, the teachers will tell you,

I stood back, like I couldn't even answer all the questions because I couldn't get past that. That's when I knew I was making an impact when I see kids who look like me and said, hey, you spoke in my school three years ago, now I'm rowing at Cal Berkeley, oh now I'm rowing at this college, like I knew, but I didn't really understand it.

Until, like, this kid who walks into the boat house was like, I mean, the lunch room's like, I'm not doing that. There's no one look like me. Like, I just didn't understand it until that day. That man, like, wow, when you act being on yourself, your career, man, like true change happens. You know what I mean? And it's, I realized at the same time that the hope I was given, because we all have kept, I've received hope at some point in our lives. The problem is that we keep it. It was my's to keep, but to also give.

And I realize it's all about the hope you give. From stepping over pools of blood running from gunshots, that was so monotonous that it was no more noticeable than the clicking of a fan in his apartment. All the way to Rulohio, where a white kid thanks you for changing his perspective of people that look like you and come from places like you learned all from the bottom of a book. What a story, bro. And you're still involved. Yeah. Not quitting. Let me ask something. Somebody wants to start a row team in their city. Can they call on you? Yeah, they can call on me. We already find you. They can find me. R.S.A. Cooper.com. My email is there. Our work, our articles on what we've done and we'll come with our team. We'll check it out

and then we'll introduce them to wellness. What if somebody wants you to come speak to their organization and tell them about that same thing? Same thing. Hit me up. My email is there, I always respond and I love to come speak. My brother, I can't thank you enough for joining me today and sharing your story and your wisdom. And, you know, there's some questions I asked with specific intent. And some things I said that I really some things I said that I really just trying to get the listeners to think a little deeper and maybe a little different about some of the realities of our world. But you're hero, man, and you are just a normal guy. I've done extraordinary things and I know you're an inspiration to a lot of people, but you're an inspiration to me. Because if there's more normal folks like you in this world, just fill in the needs in our communities,

we can fix a lot of what else is. And army of you would change everything. And I just, I can't thank you enough and I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed being with you. Thank you, too. And I have to say that. I didn't know many years ago when I was sitting in my couch watching the trailer to undefeated that I'd be sitting here across for years.

Well, dreams are still being eliminated, my friend. We're both too do's, we've never expected to be here. But through God's grace, we are, and hopefully some people got some inspiration in the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for joining us this week. If R. Shay or another guest has inspired you in general or better yet to take action, please let us know how.

I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at billatnormalfokes.us. And if you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the podcast, write it and review it, share it with friends and on social. The things that will help grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week.