An Army of Normal Folks - Deb Ellinger: Serving Women Who Are Sexually Trafficked (PT 1)

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Deb had just lost her own house to foreclosure when she decided to start Elli’s House, which builds relationships with women who are sexually trafficked in Detroit and offers them safe shelter for transitioning to a new life. Their army of volunteers are bringing light to one of the darkest places in our country.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're in your truck driving on the sidewalk and partially in the street. You're like, come back. Can you just come back? And I have people ask me all the time. When do you just say enough is enough? Never. And I watched that and I felt like it was like confirmation that It's okay to be like I'm gonna keep trying you know, we're gonna talk about that. So don't I won't I won't but I'm just so privileged to meet you. Oh

First of all, I am just a dude from So I know and you've you've listened to this right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, so you know it's conversation. Yep. Yeah One of my shortcomings is I get really excited about what I like people and I like these stories. I genuinely like what I'm doing. Yeah. And God knows I would have to to keep up this, this him. But so I get I get hearing what you're saying and I get excited. So I'm trying to temper my excitement a little bit, not to speak over my guest too much. Okay. It's the criticism I'm getting right now. So you're working on this, what I hear you say?

I'm a lumber guy in a football coach. Yeah, I mean, nobody, I didn't take the bag, forgot to say. So anyway, I'll tell you about this a little bit. I can't wait to hear about it. So a couple notes, generally speaking, you should be about this far away. I also screw at the microphone while we're talking.

Oh, while we're talking. Yeah, we're just up-perioding. Good to know, but for a house. Just do what most people do in IgMio. Okay, well, I can do that really well. I can do that really well. and do that really well. Welcome to an Army of Normal Folks, I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy.

I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in an intercity Memphis in the last part. It unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits stalking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather an Army of normal folks, us, just you and me deciding, hey, I can help. That's what Deb Elanger, the voice we just heard is done.

Deb is the founder of Ellie's house, a street ministry in Detroit that cares for women who have been sexually trafficked. She tries to help them escape and enter a treatment program and today they have two houses where women can live as they transition back to a new life. I cannot wait for you to meet Deb right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by I Heart Podcasts.

Why am I getting into the podcast game now? Well, it seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell.

Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show in the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains.

We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, and Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words he had murdered Susan Furman. Why do they were so obsessed with dark people like that? It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural, there's something here, truly something going on. Our biggest fears, mental health, pop culture. Just a adrenaline being on a film set is incredible. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute, you should be very happy, you want?

This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so I'll let that O'Brien and ask me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers.

Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. My dad, a 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban Missile Crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Debbie Elanger, I have been really looking forward to meet you and welcome to Memphis. Well, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, and everybody, Debbie Elanger, but it's dub. Yes, it is. Where you're... All my friends call me dub. You're dub. Am I your friend? You are. I get to call you. You do. All right. Perfect. So, um,

crazy life. Amazing story and we're gonna unpack it all, but first, um, just who you are, where you come from as a kid, how you grew up. Yeah, so I grew up. Give us some background on who Dev is. Yeah, I grew up in the city of Detroit. Love my city so much, still even. I grew up there, went to high school, graduated, became a, went to a police academy, became a police officer.

Worked doing that for about seven years, and then decided I wanted to be at home with kids. So I had four kids and raised them at home, homeschooled them until high school, sent them off to high school, and then just really felt like God was leading me to do something with women, to empower women, to love on women, specifically in the city of Detroit.

So that's how Ellie's house got created. Which we're good to. Yeah. But you skipped get to. Yeah. But you skipped way ahead. Did I? We got to get back to where Deb, the root of Deb. Tell me about your parents. Do you have siblings? I don't. I'm an only child. They're an only child. I am. Yeah. Me too.

Are you? Oh, that's, I do remember hearing this. Yeah. Yeah. I'm an only child. My mom got divorced before she can have anymore. Okay. Because you were enough for her. Because that was it. Uh, I think I ended up being plenty. Yeah. But the story's about you, Duff. So tell me about your mom, your dad, where you came up and how you came up and where inditriut you came up. Yeah. So my dad came from Alabama, moved, was in the military, moved to the city, became a bus driver.

So we took the bus everywhere growing up when I was a little. City bus. Yes, city bus. Let me ask something, did your dad wear a gun? No. No, back in the day. No.

And there was a time, and you and I are about the same age. Yeah. There was a time right before us that bus drivers were actually armed and were badges. Yeah. Did you know that? Yeah, I did know that. He was not in that. He was just after that.

He was just after that. He was just after that. Yeah. So I grew up taking the bus everywhere we went. We lived in a flat in the city on the east side. Actually, we lived in a flat not far from where our outreach takes place. And so we grew up there. I lived in.

Where is that part of the city? So it's seven in Chalmers area, Harper and Conner's area. Got it. I have a reason for asking. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. So that's where I grew up and I lived there and had awesome experiences actually living in the city. People talk about how it's dangerous. I like, I don't have memories of that. I just have good memories of just relationships

and community, like the community was really strong and when we, where we lived. And then eventually it didn't, it wasn't anymore. What, what's your bomb day? She, so my mom worked at JC Penney's. She was a manager at JC Penney's. My, my dad was a bus driver and we lived and That part of the city we lived there until about 1985 and

Then we moved to a little community called Harper Woods Which actually borders the city of Detroit? So we were like four streets off from the city. And then that's where I went to high school. Yeah, it's a 75. Yeah, high school. Yeah. So then I went to high school and my parents lived in Harper Woods until about 2000. And now they live in my dad passed away in August. And my mom lives in a town called Picney. You know, it doesn't get more blue collar, Detroit feeling than a kid going up inside Detroit with a JC Penny's mom and a bus driver dad.

I mean, you guys were just blue collar folks. We were, yeah, big time blue collar. Did your parents struggle with money or anything? Yeah, I mean, they did. So we lived in a flat and downstairs lived an older couple. And they had no kids and they adapted me. They would call me their granddaughter. So we lived upstairs.

They lived downstairs and they paid for me to go to private school. You're kidding me. No, no. And they... To private high school? The private grade school. So I went to private grade go to private school. You're kidding me. No, no private high school private grade school So I went to private grade school till eighth grade and then they did that. Why did they do that? Just because honestly they just loved me so much. Wow. Yeah, they were so good to me Who are they tell us are Lisa and Joe and Erie? Wow, and so they had no children, no grandchildren, no grandchildren. They loved you

and they just paid for your school. Yeah. And then he passed away. That's actually why we moved. So he passed away in 1984. We moved in about 1985. Teresa moved to Ohio. That's where her family was from. We always stayed in contact. And then she paid for one year of my college too. You are kidding. No, they were great. Wow. Yeah. What kind of school was the private school they sent you to?

Was it Lutheran school? Were you a fish out of water? A little bit. Yeah. Because if you're coming from this blue collar background going to a private school, was it a little weird? Yeah, fair. Yeah, it was a little weird now that I think about it because most people didn't come from that environment,

but great experience. Like I just look at my grade school years and they were just all positive. It was just great. It was a very diverse community too. I wish that I knew the roads, but my grandparents are from Detroit. Oh. My maternal grandmother and grandfather grew up in

Detroit and met in six grade Sunday school class and married a couple months before the war. And my grandfather ended up being a pilot in World War II. Wow. And we're stationed in Petscola. And my grandfather's father passed young and he was one of six. Okay. And they grew up in a two bedroom apartment somewhere in Detroit and I wished a goodness. I knew where. But I know that he saved up and bought a Model T and oftentimes it ran out of gas and he just left it on the side of the street until he could get gas to move it. Right.

Right. And he would tell you, well, he told me, then they passed, but that bagging Janus Sullins was her maiden name. My grandmother was the greatest thing he'd ever done because my grandmother grew up on the other side of Detroit, although they met it in church. Now the other side was the nice side and of course I don't know what that is, but the reason I have this for you is my great-grandfather was an executive with Massey Ferguson tractors and Detroit. Oh my goodness. And they made those things

in Detroit. Yeah. And while my grandmother and grandfather were in World War Two, my great grandfather, my grandmother's father relocated to Memphis to open the first Massey Ferguson dealership. That's so cool. And after the war my grandmother grandfather came to Memphis rather than going back to Detroit to work in the Massey Ferguson dealership. Wow, that's amazing. And so when I knew we were interviewing you and how much you love Detroit. I am a descendant of Detroit. When you are, you absolutely are. By way of Massey Ferguson, and the reason I have this tractor is because this was a

salesman's model that my grandfather used to take around and sell people, tractors with, and when he died, my grandfather got it, my grandfather died. I got it, and it sits on my credenza in my office to remind me that I come from a grandfather line, at least, on my maternal side of people who have always been in industrial sales, which is what I do. Right. And it all connects back to Detroit. So I have this weird kinship to you and your story where you came up. Yeah. So anyway, I love that. I love

that. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. That's so cool. So where'd you get a college? Fair state university. What is that? It's a college in Northern Michigan, I guess, if you will. Near Grand Rapids, Michigan. I'm sure it's balmy during the winter. It's real balmy in the winter. Yeah. So yeah, so that's where I went to school. I got a bachelor's degree in criminal justice, and you can go through a police academy there.

So that's what I did. And it was great. Why did you want to be a police officer? That's not a typical thing for a female, especially in those years to want to do Yeah, part of it was I think because I wanted to show people I could do it because it wasn't the popular thing to do Part of it is that because that's just kind of how I'm wired right But I really did love I I like risk I like to

Help people and so that felt like a good way to put it all together. And I thought eventually I would go to law school. That's actually what I thought I would do. So I would start being a police officer and then as I got older, I was like, maybe I'll go to law school because that really intrigued me. But then I ended up, now I'm going to school for my masters and social work. So like, you know,

that world never- You just don't know. You just don't know. You just don't know what's gonna happen. So- But you graduated from there. I did. And you acclaim not a police officer at first, right? So I worked as a corrections officer for a little bit and then I got promoted and worked

on the road at the Sheriff's Department. I worked there for a couple of years. What does that mean on the road? Yeah, so you can work, you start out in the jail, at least during my time, I don't know if it's like this still anymore, but you would start out in the jail and then eventually being on the road in a patrol car was a considered a promotion.

Got it. So, so out there writing tickets and catching back guys. Yep, doing all that kind of stuff. And so after six months of working in the jail, I got promoted, I went to the road, and I worked the road, and I did traffic. I did a little bit of everything. Was the jail the city jail?

No, so McComb County is a suburb of the city. So Detroit's in Wayne County, McComb County is a separate area, but it's a pretty big jail. So, what was your job inside the jail? Basically, watching the women. I worked in, sometimes I worked in the men's side, but mostly I worked in the women's side. So doing checks on them, making sure they took their medication,

make sure they were honoring the rules and obeying the rules, that kind of stuff. It was great experience. I actually really enjoyed it, but my goal was eventually to be on the street. Were there drugs in jail at that time? No, not like today. Not like today. It's so different now.

What's the difference? Well, first of all, I would say working where there was less people, like the numbers of people in the side our jails and prisons is insane. The numbers are just through the roof. I would say that's the first thing. And I feel like back then in my time, it was just more respectful. People just really, like, you tell them the rules. You know, same thing I kind of do now, develop a relationship with people and then here are the rules, just honor the rules because we have a relationship and that's what we would do. So even back then inmates followed. Yeah. Rules. Yeah, for sure. Do you have any sense of

the difference in why we have such a difference in the numbers of prison population now is just only when you first became a police officer and also why the attitude of the people inside the jails is so much more vicious and violent. Do you have a sense of that? Gosh, I guess I would have to think about that for a minute. I would say that drugs is definitely a contributor. So the drugs are always expanding and growing and becoming, I guess, more edgy. So even on the streets, I talk to people and we talk about fentanyl a lot.

Well, there's something actually much harder than fentanyl going on. It's called animal trink. Really? It's called animal trunk. What? Animal. Trink. So it's like a giant. Like a tranquilizer? Yeah.

Is it really animal tranquilizer? That's what they say. And so it's laced in whatever you do. Typically, we're talking heroin or crack, but mostly heroin. And if it's in that drug, it actually eats away your skin. So we've seen two people with it in our area where it literally is eating away your skin. And so this one particular person, it was eating away on their shin and it's antibiotic resistant. There's one type of antibiotic that worked, but it's not guaranteed that it will work.

And you have to be at the hospital for many days, typically like five to 10 days for it to run. Is it either white or skin until it kills you? Yeah. That is. It's so fun. So we have stuff like that that didn't exist, like back in my day, like we weren't working with stuff like that.

Do you think the laws are different or do you think the police approach to people are different? I think both. I think the laws are much different now than they were. And I think law enforcement's tired. They're tired. People are tired. And the lack of respect and from both sides, I would say both sides. I don't think it's one side it here. I go, like as a law enforcement officer, it is gonna benefit you to be kind and courteous and develop some kind of rapport with somebody as opposed to coming all guns blazing all the time.

Coming in hot. Coming in hot. And like, I would say that for the same for people, like, be honest, be truthful, have a conversation. And I think we immediately turn to violence all the time instead of just actually sitting down and having a conversation. And so, and it goes on both ways, both sides. So, I think you have a very unique perspective and our listeners don't fully understand where you are now, which we're not going to tell them yet. But we'll just say that you work with people that are oftentimes the ones ending up in prison.

And then you've also got a degree in criminal justice and were a police officer for six, seven years. So you have a unique perspective because you literally have been an advocate for both sides of the spectrum. Right. And to hear you say, it's so different now. Our gels are so much full, or the lack of respect from both sides is so much different. To me, it's just a phenomenal narrative on how much change our society has gone through in just the last 25 years. Yeah, for sure. Do you have a sense of a remedy? I don't. I wish I did. For me, a lot of things just come down to respect and relationships.

That's what it comes down to me. Like if we're building relationships and community, whether we're a nonprofit, whether we're a police department, whether we're a fire department, whether we're a business owner, I just think there's a lot of value and power in developing relationships and then holding your community accountable. And I just think we've a lot of value and power in developing relationships and then holding your community accountable And I just think we've lost that we've lost all sense of that And now a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first We really want to hear from you about what the Army and other Army members have meant to you. And consider sharing it on our social media accounts if you'd be open to sharing with

us. If you're game for this, write us at armyatnormalfokes.os or call or text us at 901-352-1366. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by I Hard Podcasts. Why am I getting into the podcast game now? Well, it seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting, or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians.

I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. But it will be entertaining to a very select few, because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

podcast. My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, and Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words he had murdered Susan Furman.

Why do they were so obsessed with dark people like that? It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural, there's something here, truly something going on. Our biggest fears, mental health, pop culture. Just a adrenaline being on a film set is incredible. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute, you should be very happy with it. This is Talking to Death.

New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so let that O'Brien and ask me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers.

Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. My dad, the 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban missile crisis. Will reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation and will pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth.

Listen to Who Killed JFK on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You get put on the street and you run around right and tickets and catch your bad guys. Yeah. Yeah. What was that like? It was awesome. It was it. Yeah, I loved it. I really love my job I mean I got hired at the Sheriff's Department when I was 21 so I always make the joke like They gave me a gun and a patrol car at 21 like my word But they did and but I did really love my job. And I think mostly because I love,

I do love helping and serving people and I love meeting new people. So my job was different every day. Like I did not do the same thing every day, which was really cool. What's it like to arrest somebody? Well, if they're cooperative, yeah. They're cooperative, it's wonderful.

If they're not cooperative, it's not so wonderful. Do you ever get scared? Yes, I would say there's one time that sticks out in my head. I had already had my oldest daughter and this was actually when I realized I don't think I could do my job anymore. I felt like I lost my edge and we were there was a call about guys with guns and like a party bus type of what yeah guys with guns and a party bus yeah and so that sounds like that sounds like I don't know what TV show but that sounds like a TV show something that would happen on Girl Scouts or something right? Right. Yeah.

So I just... Guys with guns, guys with guns on a party bus. Hey, are we talking about a basketball party? It's gonna rye or are we talking about bad guys that just happen to be in a bus? The latter. Bad guys that happen to be in a bus. Yeah.

So what are they doing? And so I remember I saw the vehicle and I was like, oh shoot, what am I gonna do? Is like my first call having a baby with someone with a gun. And I'm supposed to pull these people over. And I'm supposed to pull these people over and have an interaction with them.

And I have a baby at my friend's house who's watching her right now. And I just kept thinking, I don't know if I can do this, I've lost my edge. And it was shortly after that that I decided I just couldn't do it anymore. So you go to four years of school, get the criminal justice thing, you go through the, and you've got this career. But then all of a sudden, your maternal instincts, you serve, career, but then all of a sudden your maternal instincts you serve your, what's your passion for law enforcement and service and all? Yeah. What's your husband's name? Jake. Jake. Yeah. So, when along this track so far, did you meet Jake? So, I met Jake. We have a very interesting story. So I met him in

97 early March of 97 and we were married, pregnant and had a house by November of 97. Wow. Yeah. Hey, Jake, want to have a baby at a house start a life? Let's just do it. Yeah. Did you arrest them and force them into this? No, I met him at a bar. I'm a mom to say it was some really cool story, but it's not. We met at a bar on St. Patrick's Day. Yeah, that's well. There you have it. Yeah, it has been love ever since. And you were a cop, right? Yeah. Yeah. I worked. I actually was at the bar with a bunch of people I worked with and my husband kept saying when now that he tells me He's like I just didn't know if you were with all of these guys like were they your dates or what were they? But I mean, isn't that a cop story to meet their spouse at a bar of all days to meet their spouse at a bar of all days. Same Patrick's Day. That's a cop story. It is.

Maybe more of a New Yorker's story, but still a cop story, right? Yes, for sure. All right, and your first kid's name is... Madison. Madison. And so... How many kids... So, but you... You get out of law enforcement when Madison is infant.

So, the other three come later. Right, well, so I have Maddie, and I remember when I had her, I was like, I don't think I want to go back to work anymore. And my husband was like, we did not talk about this. Like, I know. Surprise. And so I had her and then I, we got, I was pregnant with Laney in 2000 and I left my job in like 98, 99. Got it.

So at this point, your mom. I am a mom. Stay at home mom. Yeah. It was great. Loving it. It was so great. Is it?

Yeah. Loved it. You know, we, Lisa and I have four children. We had four and four years. God bless you. God bless Lisa. God bless Lisa. I didn't, you know, I did the fun part. She's amazing too. She is phenomenal. Yes. She absolutely is. Yeah. So did you stay, uh, you stay at home, mom? Yeah. So I had Maddie and 98 and then we had Laney and 2000 and then we had Peyton in 2001 so they're 14 months apart.

Yeah. And then my son McGuire was born in 2005. And this whole time you're being a mom. I am. What's Jake do for 11? He's a carpenter. He's a carpenter. He loves to build things.

I love it. So at this point you're having just the normal American life with a little bit over the average number of kids and you're living a dream, but you feel called to do something else. Yeah, so a nonprofit in the area asked if I would be interested in working for them and doing what? Sunday school programs for inner city kids at a church and vacation Bible schools. So I did Sunday school programs that created a program forum,

created a VBS program, vacation Bible school program, and loved it, loved it so much. And then we had a girl run away that we, I was pretty close to. From Bible school? Yeah, well, she had ran away from home, but she pretty close to from Bible school. Yeah, well, she had ran away from home, but she was involved in our Bible school. She was involved in our Sunday mornings. And I had the, you know, the local grandma who knows

everyone's stuff that's going on call me at like seven in the morning. And she's like, you got to turn the news on this girl's picture was on the news. She had been missing for four days. And I was like, oh my gosh, we got to figure out what's going on. So I texted her and called her and paid like all the things. And finally she got back with me. This girl. And I was like, you need to come home. 15. And she got back with you. Yeah. I was like, why you? Well, we had a relationship. So I was like, why you? Well, we had a relationship. So it was interesting because her and I had had a conversation about what trafficking

looked like in the city. Like, if you, girls are running away like crazy in the city. And it can be in this situation, it was literally because of a pair of shoes. She wanted a pair of shoes and her mom wouldn't buy it for her. And there was just a lot of tension at their house and so she ended up running away and her and I had a conversation at the church a few weeks before that about what trafficking looked like. I did a trafficking presentation for teen girls.

We talked about online stuff. We talked about being approached with these great gifts and these great opportunities that weren't true. And so we literally, her and I had a private personal conversation for like three minutes. It was really short. But I was like, Hey, I just always want you to remember the things that we talked about in here. Like, things aren't what they look like when you're on the street. And so like, if you decide to leave your school or leave your house, just remember the things we talked about, like people offering you money for things, offering you purses and shoes and she remembered that. And so she said she went, she ended up going to a friend's house and we ended up getting her to go back home. But she had encountered all of those

situations. And so she like, I had encountered a guy asking telling me he could buy me all of those situations. And so she's like, I had encountered a guy asking, telling me he could buy me all of these great things. Deb, we got a backup. Yeah. Well, people listening to this, they hear vacation, Bible school, and clearly you're a Christian and faithful because you have evoked, you felt called to do things. When I hear church in vacation, Bible school, I don't think classes on trafficking. Yeah, right. That doesn't. I imagine a bunch of people making

do an arch and crafts in singing Jesus loves me. I don't imagine having conversation 14 or 15 year old girls about human trafficking, about prostitution. Give me a sense of what this church looks like. I mean, I'm not envisioning a white steeple church off in the sound of music kills. This must be a different church situation. So it's in a very poverty-stricken zip code. A lot of the houses shouldn't be lived in, but they are that kind of environment. Low sociologist. Yep. Yep very low and Kids skipping school kids not going to school kids fighting at school. They did go to school

How you getting these people into a church? You just well, we just went around the neighborhood and asked people to come to church Yeah, yeah, you just you got to be in the neighborhood. You got to be in the community to just build that relationship for people to trust you. And that's what we did. And then they would bring people in. And people would just keep, like we had a really strong vacation Bible school program. And Sundays we didn't have as many kids, but it really was because of us going into the community

and just building that trust. So you got out of law enforcement because you feared for your safety, not really for your own, but for your families, but then you decide, okay, well, I'm not going to have the backing of the police at Kevlar Vest and a gun, but I'm going to the same neighborhood and knock on doors. Yeah. I know. Now when you say like that, Bill, it doesn't sound all that. Well, just say it. I'm all those are people. What you're talking about. Yeah. But honestly, I get asked all the time, like, are you scared? I don't feel scared. I get that. I never felt scared in my asses. Yeah, I don't. I don't feel like that. I don't

and honestly, I think a part a huge part of it is just the genuine authentic love that we show people. Like it is just authentic and we're not perfect. We don't have it all figured out, but we really love people well. We'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to

tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts.

Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, and Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words he had murdered Susan Furman. Why do they were so obsessed with dark people like that? It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural, there's something here, truly something going on.

Our biggest fears, mental health, pop culture. Just adrenaline being on a film set is incredible. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute, it should be very happy. You want? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Ado Bryan and asked me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers.

Well, last, who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president? My dad, the father of JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban Miss crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation, then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to who killed JFK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So what possessed you to care enough about the kids in this impoverished neighborhood and getting them

into anything that to be part of positive that you wanted to go knock around on doors and the hood. I think part of it. I say the hood but I'm picturing the hood. It is. Yeah, it is. I think part of it is realizing that I had privilege growing up. I had that and most of my all of my friends on my street did not have that. Hold it. You had privilege? Oh yeah. Going to the daughter of a bus driver and a JC pennies person living in an apartment in inner city Detroit doesn't sound overly privileged. No, but going to Lutheran school instead of Detroit

public schools was a huge privilege, a huge privilege. Like I can remember my neighbor- That your parents didn't afford you. Right, exactly. I can remember my neighborhood friends coming home with like one kid had a black eye because he got into somebody hit him at school. I mean this is in the 80s, right? And I just remember going, wow, I don't have those experiences that were where I'm at. And I did go to a very diverse school. So I really learned a lot about different cultures.

And I loved that. I loved being a part of the culture we had at my school. At the African American culture was so strong and so good. And that's what I wanted to be a part of. And that's the kind of community I grew up in. So the girl then disappeared that the grandmother who knows everything, which I know the grandmother she's talking about. You also have to answer to those grandmother.

You absolutely do. I have to be right. You best be right. And you best answer. And you've got a lot of you for help, but they'll also call you and tell those grandmother. You absolutely do. Best be right. You best be right and you best answer. He's the color you for help, but they'll also call you and tell you when you're messing up. They for sure will. And if you don't answer their phone call, they will call you back five more times in like two minutes.

Or just show up. Or just show up. Yeah, I know those. Yeah, I know you do. I do too. So you got this girl to go home. Yep, we got this girl to go. But when that happened, it triggered something in you.

It did. Because she said to me, could you have a place where could there be a place where I could just go so I could like calm down after a fight with my parents or a place to go where I could just sit and figure out how I was feeling? And I was like, well, I could think about that. I don't know what that would look like. And so originally,

when I was praying about it and figuring out what God wanted me to do, I was like, maybe we would just have like a drop-in center for teen girls after high school. That's how my thoughts process started. Like it would be a place for girls to go after high school. After school was done, they could calm, they could hang out, get a meal, and just talk through stuff that happened through the day. Talk through stuff going on at their house, and then we would try to come through, figure out problem solving.

That's originally how it started, and then it grew into helping adult women. So, why do you care? I just think that everybody has value. I really do. And the people we work with aren't seen as having value. They're not seen as having worth. I think sometimes it's probably why people don't get involved with us because it's a very hard demographic to work with. And so those are the people that are I think are overlooked the most that I want to be able to go, hey, you do have value, you do have worth and we want to show you what that looks like.

So tell us who it is you work with. So we work with women who are women's an interesting word. Mm-hmm women and men to be honest we work with women. I mean some of them aren't legally women. Yeah, well, we're right. And so women men, we work with transgender, any of that population, anyone who's struggling with homelessness, substance abuse, trafficking, forced prostitution, and we really do just love them and meet them where they're at. But what I mean is some of these ages are 14 and 15. So we work with every, so all of our clients are typically 18 and older. Got it. Yeah. But you see we have seen yes younger.

Mm-hmm. For sure. So we'll talk about what you do to work with them in a minute. But what does a, I'm picking one, this is my fictitious world, okay? But you can put reality on top of this vision that I have of a 20-year-old woman who is walking the streets, selling herself, probably has an addiction, probably has nowhere to stay consistently with a roof over head. Where does that person come from? How does that happen? And what's going on between their ears when you can actually talk to them?

Yeah, so give us that person. And so it could be a wide range of who that person can be. That one of those people could be from foster care who's been through the system and aged out of the system and has nowhere to go. We see that often, but we also see the person from the suburbs that got into a fight with their mom or dad and met somebody online and it looked like a better situation ended up on the street and then ended up addicted and now can't leave.

So we have that situation. We have, I've heard stories from women saying, I watched my mom do this. This was how she survived. This is how she put food on the table for us in a roof over our head. And so this is really what we grew up seeing. It's generational.

And we've seen people who have just come right from addiction and then just to feed their addiction, just continue to be out there. So I can remember when I was a kid, we used to play chips. All right, over the TV show chips? Yes. Yeah, with John Ponserolo and the other guy.

Yep. Something Ponserolo and John. Yeah, but anyway, it was a spanic dude and a very white guy. Yep. And there were rather motorcycles around. Well, we would ride our bicycles around and act like the chips people. And of course I was always the really white dude because he had blonde hair and was light-skinned and I looked like Ella and had a friend named David Leon who obviously with the name David Leon

was John Poncearella whatever's name was anyway we should love. I mean, and when I was growing up, I always thought, how cool would it be to be a motorcycle police? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that time in your life, what you dreamed of being, what you wanted to be? Do you remember that? What was it? It was not law enforcement. No, but what was it? A veterinarian. You wanted to be a veterinarian? Yeah. What do you want to be Alex? You want to be a sports broadcaster? So I mean, everybody is listening to this. I wish they'd go back to that six to seven eight year old. You know, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah. How about nobody says a hooker? No, not one person I've ever talked to on the street says, I love my job. I love what I do and I want to be here. Yeah, and so that's the thing. Yeah.

Is nobody says I want to grow up, be a hooker. No one. No one. No one says I want to grow up, live on the streets and use my body. And it's just so devastating because our country is full of these streets. And Detroit, where you happen to work, you see it every day. And I'm trying so hard to get the sense of what drives a human being to live in filth and to sell themselves and to put themselves in that abuse when that's not what anybody ever wants to be.

And you say foster care and they get turned out and they have nowhere to go. I mean, that's heartbreaking because we're talking about a foster kid who has already been crapped on their whole life. Right. So they're almost systematically falling into a crack. And then, you know, you talk about, about I mean what is it the family business the second generation thing and I want to strangle the mother who even painted a picture of a life for a child to grow like that but more than likely that mother came from an incredible amount of trauma dysfunction that even led to that in the first place. So that's more devastation.

Obviously addiction and to think of a young lady who's probably going through high school or whatever gets caught up in a crowd, going through high school or whatever gets caught up in a crowd, which I hate every, at some point, everybody says they're hanging around with the wrong crowd. At some point, somebody is the crowd and they're not hanging around with themselves. So the hanging around with the wrong crowd is kind of a weird thing because you kind of are that crowd. So you're hanging around with the wrong person, which you're hanging around yourself, the wrong person. Exactly. So I hate that whole thing. But the addiction then leading to a place where the only way you know how to feed your addiction is to fall into this lifestyle. And then a kid from the burbs for good to say,

it's to meet somebody online and ends up in this world. But all of it is just so devastating. It really is. And Deb, I just can't imagine waking up one day and saying, I want to go be around these people every day. I know. Why? I honestly, I just think it is how I'm wired to love and serve people that are always overlooked.

Honestly, I do. I often say that it's important that a discipline and passion meet opportunity if you're ever going to do anything in this world. And I talk about an army of normal folks serving as a catalyst for people to find their passion and their discipline and then listen long enough to meet an opportunity where they can employ it and get involved. Yeah, that's good. And it's just interesting to me that your passion and your discipline are people

and your discipline was a law enforcement person. And it comes from kind of how you came up and then you see an opportunity where most people look the other way. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I think so too. So let's Jake think about his wife hanging out over here. So I took him a minute to get used to it, the idea. But as years have gone on, he's gone out with us.

So he sees, he knows all the people I talk about. And he can see how knows all the people I talk about. And he can see how like the relationships are so great between all the people out there. So I think he's in a good place about it. What he doesn't love the idea, because my dream is that I would move to that area. So I would love for me and him to buy a house in our outreach area and live there. And that's he's not on board with that yet. Yet is the operative word. I'm like, it's gotta come eventually. So I've read that somewhere, maybe in my notes or maybe Alex provided it or maybe was even in the email that you reached out to me with, which was awesome, that you were actually losing your own home. We were.

Yeah. Why? Um, so For children, that's scary. It was very scary. My husband lost his job. Um, this is when 2008, 2009. Housing crisis.

You're yet. There's a carpentry probably wouldn't get much. Yeah, he was not having much work And so we ended up losing our house. You did lose it. We did. I thought it was maybe it gonna be no we did and that for closing Yep, we got four closed on did you own it? We did Mm-hmm and the bank got it yep, and you have four children. Yep Yeah, we're gonna freaked out. Yeah Yeah, a little bit. And then we found a house to rent.

So we rented a house on a mile road that was about four miles from the city. Then the screw up your credit and up it your whole life. Oh, yeah. But now we have a house. Bill, so it's good. We bought a house and a credit. No, I know that's great, but the point is that coincides with when you decided to get on the street and help people. Yeah

So does that work? Well, so when we lived in this house on a mile road like four miles from the city across the street from our house was a liquor store and a bus stop And so we were homeschooling the kids at the time. And I was like, what could we be doing in this community? Like we just have to do something because we're here. I don't know how long we're gonna be here for, but we might as well embrace the fact that we're here and utilize this time wisely.

So we started giving, it was the winter time. So we would provide hot chocolate to the people at the bus stop. How can you provide hot chocolate for me with a bus stop when I can even pay your bills? I know, I know, I know. I know. Well, you keep saying, you know, I don't know.

I don't either. I don't know how we did it, but we did. And my husband would get like pick up little ad jobs here and there. So like, he can make anything. He was not looking at you saying quitspin' or money on hot chocolate, we can't pay our bills. Maybe he was thinking that, but he didn't verbalize that.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. The reason I'm asking this, is not to take you through a clearly traumatic time of your life, but everybody's all what not everybody. Oftentimes, people are always saying, I really want to help, but now's not their time. I really want to do something on my community,

but I need to get this taken care of first. Yeah. You're out there in the community losing your home. Yeah. Raising money for other people when you can't even pay your own bills. That is correct. Yeah. That's phenomenal. Yeah. We'll be right back. That's phenomenal. Yeah. We'll be right back. My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the Internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained. I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains.

We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Furman. Why do they were so obsessed with dark people like that? It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural, there's something here, truly something going on, our biggest fears, mental health, pop culture, just adrenaline being on a film set is incredible. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute,

it should be very happy. You want? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. Why am I getting into the podcast game now? Well, it seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting, or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians.

I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. But it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say.

Listen to Toss Show in the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Ado Bryan and asked me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president.

My dad, 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban missile crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation and will pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to who killed JFK on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I just remember God telling me, you need to do something in the city and you need to find a house to do that in. And I just remember going, I don't even have my own house, right? Like we're renting a house and we are literally living week to week right now. Paycheck to paycheck. And I remember telling my husband one day when we were in the car driving together, because timing is everything when you talk to your husband about

some big plan you have, right? I'm excited. Everything we talked to your wife. Yeah, this is true. Trust me. I know. I don't know why I picked this time, but I don't know. I don't even remember where we were going, but I remember going, I have been praying and

asking God to show us what we're supposed to do. And so my husband was like, I don't know. If you get someone to donate a house to you, I guess we can make that happen. But otherwise, I don't know what you're thinking. And I was like, I don't know. If you get someone to donate a house to you, I guess we can make that happen. But otherwise, I don't know what you're thinking. And I was like, I don't know either. I don't know how it's gonna happen, but I'm just gonna keep figuring it out. So.

And somebody donated a house. And somebody donated a house. Yeah. Which sets in play this dream that happened from a conversation from the first 15-year-old that said to you if I just had somewhere to go. Yeah. And you don't even have your own house, but you get a house donated for the people who

have nowhere to go. Right. That's crazy. I know. I know. So, tell me what a day's, back in those times, what does go out? You've said a couple of times and we need to let the listeners know

what we're talking about. You said go out. What does go out mean? Yeah, so when we first started, we took our personal car and went to an area that was I knew really well, near where I grew up. So it's like I know this area. I'm just gonna go look for people

who might need food or might need. You literally just went out looking for people. Literally we went in our car, my husband and I just me and him. And then that kind of grew from printing missing girl flyers. So there was lots of girls missing from the city of Detroit. And so I printed flyers and then we would go into gas stations, tattoo parlors, all the places go, hey, have you seen these girls? Any of them look familiar and if anybody thought they did, we would call in a tip, that kind of thing. And then I ran into, we ended up on this one street Harper and I was talking to an off-duty police officer who was working security at this hotel. I was like, hey, I'm really like, I wanna find women that we can really love on and serve and he was like, well, you hit the jackpot.

This is it right here. And I was like, this whole strip right here and he was like, yeah. And so then that's where we ended up. And we would literally just ask people, do you need food, do you need hygiene? Do you need food, do you need hygiene? And for like six months, people would flip us off. I was called FBI.

Someone thought I was an FBI agent at one point. I was called the police. I mean all the things for like six months until the one person in the neighborhood who was kind of like the ring leader of the neighborhood finally was like, I'll take food from you and when that happened everybody started doing it to six months to get some of you to take a free sandwich. Oh, yeah Yeah, cuz they trusted so little. Yeah, are you walking up to girls? They're just on a corner. Yeah Literally, I'm wearing a van, but yeah, we literally walk up to girls that are on the corner and And now we go to drug houses because we know where those are so we do both sex Well, let's go. I'm just, I'm trying to figure out,

did you have your gut up and you, I'm putting myself in your shoes. Yeah. If I'm walking up to a corner with one or two or three girls or whatever, and I may be sensationalized this. So if what I'm painting is inaccurate, correct me, but walk up to a street person a girl I assume Halfway scantily cloud, but maybe just trying to garner attention from a John on a corner

And I'm walking out to say Hey I'm dub you want a sandwich? Yep. I mean, were you a little nervous the first? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I was definitely nervous the first time I asked. And then it did get easier each time I'd ask, Hey, are you hungry? Is usually what I say. Hey, are you hungry? Because that's a simple question.

And usually you're hungry. So they're like, yeah, I'm like, oh, I have a sandwich. They either say yes, or they say no at the beginning, it was no. I don't want nothing from you. And then just as time went on, it changed. People's people changed. When you say hygiene, what does that mean? So it would be, we have like a bag full of different items. And they're, and they're all different, but sometimes they have like a bag full of different items and they're and they're all different but sometimes they have like a toothbrush toothpaste bar soap shampoo travel size shampoo conditioner just your basic needs sometimes they'll have wipes in them just kind of depends on who makes them just so that they can clean up yeah because there's no like typically no running water there's no

there's these girls typically stay? In abandoned houses. Are they pimped? Some of them are pimped and some of them are working for food and a place to stay. So if you stay at an abandoned house, sometimes the abandoned house is owned by a drug dealer. Owned or just squatted on. Squatted on, I guess, is a better way to say it. And so you have to pay for your space in that room. So you might have-

Is that where you turn tricks to? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. That is disgusting. It is absolutely disgusting. Why aren't we locking up these squatting homeowner people. I think because the city is just too overwhelmed and too busy for to even worry about something like this.

What's again, the forgotten people, right? Right. So how's the typical transaction work? Yeah. So typically we pull up and usually now people wave us down. Somebody referred to us as like the ice cream truck when they see our big white van. We're like, we pull up in the neighborhood and people just come out. We beat the horn at drug houses, so we'll pull up, beat the horn, people will come out and then we give them food. We give them hygiene from the window. If they need clothes that I'll get out of the van, go to the back of the van, they can pick out clothes, they

can always pick out things that they want so you can pick two shirts and two pairs of pants, we'll give you socks, gloves in the winter hat, that kind of things. So yeah, most of it happens from the window, but a lot of times if they need clothes. So I try to do clothes for every woman that we meet at least once a week. So we just kind of remember like, hey, I gave you clothes last week, so we're not gonna do it today.

We'll do it next week. I gotta believe you're talking to them. You're using the opportunity to have conversations with them about important stuff. Oh yeah. And we're talking long before the house or any of that. I'm just talking to people in the street that you're just trying to build a relationship with. Yeah, pretend like I'm one of them. What are you going to say to me? Yeah, I always tell them like, do you know how value

and worthy you are? Like, do you know that your value is much more than this moment right here on the street in this house and this environment? Do you know your value is more than that? And a lot of times, but I don't believe you because I've been devalued my entire life. But now I feel like because we have such the relationship, they actually believe it when it comes from me. But I don't, I've grown up abused. I've grown up beaten.

I've grown up second class. I'm out here selling myself, even in the most desperate at times. When I do look at myself in the mirror, I know what I see. And what I see lacks value. And I appreciate you showing up in the van and give me a sandwich or some clothes, but you don't know what you're talking about. So maybe one day you will see how you're valued and worthy. And because we show up consistently and love you, no matter what, you can come up our van, and you can have a crack pipe in your hands,

you can come up with a needle in your arm, we are gonna still accept you just how you are, and eventually that will sink in. And a lot of women have said, you are the only unconditional love or relationship we experience. Like we get to come and there's no strings attached. You don't, you can come up to our van and if

you decide you're, you're pissed off at us today, you don't want to take a lunch. That's fine. That's your choice. You don't have to come talk to us. You don't have to take anything from us because you get a choice today here. And eventually that will sit in. When when you're handing a sandwich or you're handing clothes out of the window, you know that within the next few hours in that woman's life, she's going to be creating a sex act for 20 or 30 bucks. Yep. About 20 20 or 30 bucks. Yep, about 20. About 20 bucks. 20 for, yeah, for sex.

How do you, I don't know how you deal with that. It's hard. I mean, there's a lot of days when I come home and my heart is just broke. And I cry because they don't is just broke and I cry Because they don't see their value and worth yet and so for me I Just I want to consistently tell them that like I'm always telling them that whether they believe it or not At least it's planning the seed to know how loved and valued they are And the true fact is a lot of the women,

I mean, will not survive the streets. I mean, this year we've lost seven girls to various overdoses. Couple girls were hit by a car. Some girls were shot. Shot. Mm-hmm. Bahoo. Drug deal gone bad. were hit by a car, some girls were shot. Shot. Mm-hmm.

Drug deal gone bad. What about right? All the time. What does that mean all the time? Then they all the time. So there's this idea in our culture right now that if we legalize prostitution, it'll eliminate all of these harmful things that happen to women.

Women do not get to pick and choose a lot what kind of sex act they want to perform in the car. They don't get in a car where usually most of the dates, that's what they call them dates, happen. They don't get to go, this is what I want to do and that's it. They're told what they have to do. They're forced to do what I want to do. And that's it. They're told what they have to do. They're forced to do what they have to do. Whether they want to do it or not. Women are always telling me how they were raped and forced to do something they didn't want to do. And

I always ask them, do you want to file a police report? I will go with you. Do you have a plate? Do you have a car distribution? I've had no every day. It's always know. It's always know. And so when we do see cars and and dates taking place with women getting in, we take plates down, we take car descriptions because if that if that woman ever comes back to me and go, that guy in that car, that type of car did this to me and I didn't want to, well, now I at least have a plate or if that girl never shows up again, or the girl never shows up again, because that happens to absolutely. Do they find bodies? Oh, yeah. Do they investigate it?

They do. Really? Yeah, I think they do the best that they can do with the amount of resources and time they have. And probably a real lack of information. Oh, no one's talking to the police information. Nobody's talking to the police. No one's talking to the police. No one.

All right, this thing does get redemptive, but I wanted to have this part of the conversation for people to fully grasp how desperate and sick and how really this is the darkest of our culture. It really is. Doesn't get much darker. We're talking about rape, we're talking about abuse, we're talking about drug abuse, we're talking about living in a place without running water so that you can have your dates or turn your tricks or whatever inside this place and all doing it for 20 bucks. Yep. And getting beaten on. Right. Regularly. Regularly.

Regularly. Regularly. We'll be right back. the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think,

this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show in the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, I've been able to

meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, and Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words he had murdered Susan Farman. Why do they were so obsessed with dark people like that? It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural, there's something here. Truly something going on. Our biggest fears, mental health, pop culture. Just a adrenaline being on a film set is incredible. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute, it should be very happy once.

This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Ado Bryan and asked me what I knew about this crime.

I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story, and on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president? My dad, 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban missile crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation, then we'll

pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the I Heart Radio app, Apple app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So you decided one day to go serve and really the darkest of the dark. And how long are you doing this work, serving these girls by just trying to feed them, close them, give them basic toiletries, but most importantly, trying to convince them of their personal value and worth. How long do you, how long are you engaged in just that without a house? Yeah, about three years. Okay. So word starts to get around about the ice cream truck lady who's crazy. Yeah, that's exactly what they say. It comes out white lady. That's crazy. That's that white lady is crazy.

It gives everybody that white ladies here. Yeah, like ladies here with ice cream truck. And so someone I guess hears about you and says, yeah, I want to give a house. Yeah, so I get a phone call on a Saturday morning from a woman who didn't know me, but knew a group of women who knew me from my church. And she set her first words out of her mouth, well, this would be the strangest conversation you've ever, strangest phone call you've ever received.

And I go, okay, what? So after the three years, you've ever, I've strangest phone call you've ever received. And I go, okay, what? So after the three years you've spent, yeah, right? I know it. Amen to that. And so I was like, okay, she goes, I was praying this morning and God said that we're supposed to give this house to you.

I'm like, what house? And she said, well, my husband inherited a house from his cousin in Detroit. And we heard you were looking for a house in Detroit. Do you think you would be interested? And I was like, I was ready to say, yes, right then, I was like, yeah, I want the house. And she like, maybe you should come look at it first. So it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. I should take our board and we should go look at it and see. So we went and looked at it. And it was great. It was structurally a very, very sound house. It just needed some rehabbing inside. So we accepted it and then we did renovations to it. And. Yeah, you have to be married to a carpentry.

I happen to be married to a carpentry. So that's very helpful. And yeah, so then we opened it up and I was actually was like, maybe we won't open it right away. I want to make sure we have all of our ducks in a row, I want to have all our paperwork set, and then as soon as it was done being renovated, people were calling like, hey, do you have availability

for a bed space for a woman who's been on the streets? And I was like, well, I guess we're doing this right now because there was just such a need. Did you have your own house at this point? No, we were renting so. We had moved from the place we were renting. Now we were in a different suburb, but we were still renting. It's so amazing to me that your organization is going to own a house to take care of people and you still don't even have your own. Yeah. I don't know much about your kids and your husband.

But they have to be special people. They really are. They really are. To allow you this. Yep. Yes, they are. My husband is the same. Yeah, my husband's a saint for just

Allowing the things to happen to happen the way they did Your children too. Yeah, and I give up their mom for this. They did they did give up their mom and They've all gone on outreach with me. So they've all experienced it and I think that those opportunities of being on the street really helped them understand why I do what I do. It really gave them that experience. So when did we call this it became Ellie's house because Ellie means God's light and then it's part of our last name. So which is also interesting. It just happened that way. So now you have this house and people are calling but you can't just

swing the doors open to everybody. There has to be rules. There has to be something. Right. Yeah. So and then there has to be now a greater purpose when I just given out sandwiches and clothes. Right. Yeah. So take us to the evolution of it to that point.

Yeah. So we actually went to a training here in Tennessee for a place called Thistle Farms. So we went and did their training because we wanted to model their program. It was, it's, it's an amazing program. And so they're so generous. They give you all their paperwork. They don't make, like, they'll share all their paperwork with you. So you just go, Hey, if this is what we're going to do, we just got to make this work for

us and adapt it for our program. We followed exactly what they did to adapt a program. And then we just, our first resident that we took in was someone that we have been talking to on the streets and she had went to Florida to do a program in Florida. And while she was in Florida, she kept in touch with us. And she was coming back, and she said, could I come and do your program? And so she did. And so she was our first resident in our in our house. And it was really, it was really cool to watch her grow. Tell me about that. So she came and she, gosh, we love her and she worked our program really hard for about

four months and then things just got hard and relapse is part of the process. Honestly, it is just what happens multiple times until you're completely ready to be able to stand up to the addiction and not do it anymore. And so she did four or five months with us and then relapsed. And so she's actually still on the streets now, but we see her very all the time. What's the rules? So no drugs, no sex, no alcohol. You cannot just come and go as you please. So there's you have to be accountable to me and where you go, you have to be in therapy. So we find you

a counselor, we find you mental health therapist, we want to help you find a job and do all of those things. But we want to make sure that you're successfully progressing through a therapy program with somebody. So honestly, for the first three, three to six months, you're with us, you are just doing your appointments, you're just doing your treatment appointments, you're just doing therapy appointments, and that's it. And getting used to living in a house. You take them straight off the streets? No, so you have to work a program. Because you have to be dealing with all kinds of. Yeah, so you're, yeah, you'd have to be

working with detox. We don't do any of those things so a lot of times we work closely with Salvation Army and so we'll take a woman from the street to go there They help with the detox process They work a program there and then they can come to us. How long is that take 30 days? So their program is six months, but we have we have taken women from different programs that have been 30 days but They're at least clean at the moment. Yes, yeah But we have taken women from different programs that have been 30 days. But they're at least clean at the moment. Yes, because we're not equipped to help somebody become clean. No, I get it.

But then they move into your home. Now, how long can I stay with you? Up to two years. Two years? Rent-free. Went free, but no drug, no alcohol, no sex. What are they doing for that two years? Lots of things. So right now our residents that we have all have full-time jobs. So the goal is, you get them to jobs. They get them themselves. I mean, they do the work to find them.

We try to figure, we try to help them navigate what they're passionate about. We want to know what you want to do. Like we, we want you to find a job that's going to help them navigate what they're passionate about. We want to know what you want to do. We want you to find a job that's going to help sustain you, right, and be successful, but that you enjoy too. Sometimes we've had residents that can't work a job. So we help them get disability, SSI, those types of things. Why can't they work a job? The trauma has just been too much and the addiction has just been too hard

on their body emotionally and physically. They literally just can't. They literally just can't. Yeah. And that's sad. It's yeah, it's really sad. They weren't born. No. There. No. Absolutely not. So So when one of these girls goes for an interview, they don't have much of a resume. How's that work? Yeah, so we try to help them navigate what an interview process would look like, and just to be honest about what's gone on in their life, right? And actually a lot of places that we have, our women have worked at, don't care if you have a misdemeanor charge or even some felony charges,

they are willing to overlook because they want to help somebody or they're just in a position where they need help. And so... Do they know people from Ellie's house? Do they know people from Ellie's house? Currently the people that are working their own jobs do not know. So we we really try to have them find their jobs themselves. We will help you with a resume. We will show you how to look for a job, a lot of the women we work with have had to learn how to use a computer and how to find a job. They don't know any of those skills. And then we help you navigate that so you can get a job, but we want you to get it on your own, if possible, and so far our residents have been able to do that.

And when they're in the house, I mean, what kind of social interaction do they have? Yeah, so they'll have a roommate, there's two women in each house, and then they're required to go to There's two women in each house. And then they're required to go to NA or AA meetings every day. And sometimes they'll go to more than one a day. So they have to be at a meeting every day, which allows them to build community. They also attend church, which builds community, and they go to Bible studies. You said, A, what is it like to sit in on one of those?

Oh, yeah. With everything. I understand what A looks like in my world, which is friends of mine who have mostly alcohol, and they go and they sit around a lot of them are business people and whatever, and they talk about how hard they're, but an A meeting with these girls has to be a whole other level. Yeah. So I've only been able to go to, and I actually was an N A meeting.

Most of the meetings are closed. So unless you are a willing participant looking for recovery, you can't attend a meeting. But I was able to attend a meeting with our first resident and was NA meetings. And it is, it's very humbling to go and sit in a room and listen to people share their stories or even watch people not share their story, but listen to other people's story in the midst of their own trauma and their own addiction. It's very humbling. Do you find it's, is it almost always the addiction that leads to it?

No, I have found that some people end up on the streets and then have their addiction to help them survive being on the streets. So, some people are struggling with addiction prior to being out there, and then there's a whole another group of people that in order to survive being out there, they're now struggling with some of these. Yeah, exactly.

Which then leads to a whole other side of issues with the addiction. Right. How many of the women that you serve also have abuse in their background prior to being on the streets? All of them. All of them? Whether it's sexual or physical. I have not found one woman that has said to me, I was not abused at some point in my life, every one of them. Every one of them has had some type of physical or sexual abuse Now they all struggle with addiction and they all struggle with a mental health disorder. I I One of

Lisa my fundamental tenets of raising children has always been my responsibility which is my responsibility, which is, regardless of what I say or what we do or how we illustrate what a good marriage looks like, my sons will always treat their wives the way they see me treat man. And my daughters, maybe even more importantly, will always expect to be treated the way they saw their father treat their mother. If I'm respectful, honor her, protect her, and love her, then that is what they're going to expect out of them. Exactly. And by husband, if they see me being abusive, just verbally,

if they see me being physically abusive or any of the other stuff, or they see me being even, you know, the solid treatment is a form of abuse. And if they see that, then that will be normalized in their relationships one day. And so the biggest job for my daughters is just to show them what to expect out of a man one day and what not to accept out of a man one day. I've really failed a lot, but I have tried to make sure that my daughter is expected and accepted only the best and their partner one day And it is so interesting to hear you say all of the girls that you've served have dealt with abuse because that same tenant that I'm talking about is at play. That's exactly what that is. And so when you see abuse and then you've been abused as a young girl, being on the

street and being abused while it sucks, I got to believe they almost accepted it is just the way life is. They do. I mean, it's a great example of that is when a girl tells me, when I pull up and I say, how was your day today? She was why I was raped earlier this morning. And I say, do you want to go file a police report and oftentimes the responses, no, like I deserved it or I got, like this is the life I lead out here.

So because of that, this seems happened. Yeah. And meanwhile you're trying to tell these folks that have had a life of abuse that they're valued. That they're loved. Yeah. When they don't see themselves as lovable or valuable. Exactly. But you get them in the house.

Yeah, I mean we try to get them in the house. We try to get them someplace, a program. But once in the house. Yeah, I mean, we try to get them in the house. We try to get them someplace, a program. But once in the house, do they start to feel it and see it and believe it? I think so. I think our girls right now feel it and see it and believe it, which is really cool to watch that happen. I wish people could see your face light up and your big smile when you say that. It's so cool to just watch a woman realize how valuable she is.

Like that's just super cool. And then honestly, part of the journey for us is when they don't see it to just keep trying to get them to see it. Like that's just part of the story. And to even watch a little bit of a breakthrough of seeing it on the street. And you know, for a woman to say, you know, thank you. I see that for a second. It's just, it's just gold. It's just gold.

So what does success look like for one of these girls for you? Yeah. So I get asked success stories all the time. And I don't want to say sex story. Okay. I want to, I will ask you that. Yeah. Okay.

I want to know what success looks like. What makes you go to sleep at night and say, we did a good job there. I honestly think it's the depth of conversation and the depth of the relationship growing. That is success to me. Because when I look at when we first went out on the street and how people would flip us off and I had a lady kick my car ones, kick my van once and

like to experience that same woman now who came up to our car and kicked it as hard as she could with her foot will now say I love you when she leaves our car like that's a success story to me. Any interaction where a woman is willing to share her vulnerable story with us and share all of the vulnerable details of addiction and what a her day looks like and what it looks like to live in a drug house and what it looks like to live in a abandoned house, like, that's a privilege and that's a big win. Wow. Well, folks, that concludes part one of my conversation with Deb Elendjur, and part two is now available.

I promise you, you do not want to miss it. But if for some strange reason you do, make sure to join the Army of Normal Folks at NormalFokes.us and sign up to become a member of the movement. By signing up, you'll receive weekly email with short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode or if you prefer reading about our incredible guest. Together, guys, we can change the country and it starts with you. I'll see you in part two. I'll see you in part two. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history.

That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Ed O'Brien, and asked me what I knew about this crime. Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president? Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show.

I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. Listen to Toss Show on the the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. My name is Payne Lindsay.

Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural, there's something here,

truly something going on, and honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute, you should be very happy, you want? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.