An Army of Normal Folks - Dr. Rhonda Smith: I Use Your Podcast in My Classes! (Pt 2)

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Professor Rhonda has assigned listening to and reflecting on our podcast to over 400 of her college students. And just wait until you hear her story that led to an extraordinary life of purpose.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks, and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Dr. Rhonda Smith right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence. Radios were smashed, cassettes burned. You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules. And yet, Afghans did it anyway. This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.

The danger they endured. They said my head should be cut off. The joy they brought to the nation. You're free completely. No one is there to destroy you I'm John Legend listen to Afghan star on the I heart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast Last season millions tuned into the betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception I'm Andrea Gunning and now we're sharing an all-new story of betrayal. Stacey thought she had the perfect husband. Doctor, father, family man.

It was the perfect cover for Justin Rutherford to hide behind. They led me into the house, and I mean, it was like a movie. He was sitting at our kitchen table. The cops were guarding him. Stacey learned how far her husband would go to save himself. I slept with a loaded gun next to my bed. He did not just say, I wish he was dead.

He actually gave details and explained different scenarios on how to kill him. He to me is scarier than Jeffrey Dahmer. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Snakes. Zombies. Sharks. Heights. you get your podcasts. when you're behind the wheel. And while you might think a great white shark is scary, what's really terrifying and even deadly is distracted driving. Eyes forward, don't drive distracted. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council.

Our I Heart Radio Music Festival, presented by Capital One. Coming back to Las Vegas. September 20th and 21st, streaming live only on Hulu. Don't miss. Big Sean. Camila Cabello. Doja Cat, Gwen Stefani, Hozier, Keith Urban, New Kids on the Block, Paramore, Shaboosie, The Black Crows, Thomas Rhett, Victoria Monet, and more. Get tickets to our 2024 iHeartRadio Music Festival, presented by Capital One right now,

before they sell out. At AXS.com. Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt, and we're the hosts of Grown Up Stuff, How to Right now, before they sell out. At AXS.com. Hey, everyone. This is Molly and Matt, and we're the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts. It's a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.

Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more. Here's a clip from an upcoming episode featuring the weekly home checks, Keyshawn Lane, that you won't want to miss. A common mistake that a lot of people do, they use fabric softener when it's not so great for your clothes. Should we never be using fabric softener?

No, you should not ever be using fabric softener. It leaves a deposit on our clothes, which is also left in the machine, and it also makes the clothes highly flammable. Wait, what? It leaves a deposit on our clothes, which is also left in the machine. And it also makes the clothes highly flammable. Wait, what? Yes. What you want to do instead is just use a quarter cup of vinegar. And that'll make them softer?

That'll make them softer. And if you wanted some kind of scent, you can use essential oils. Wow, wow, wow. Catch new episodes of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult every other Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. So where do you go from there? And how do you become Dr. Rhonda Smith? Okay. The rest of that year was pretty rough. That year and then the beginning of the next year was probably one of the hardest seasons

of our family's life. If you remember, and you probably didn't know it then, but 2001 was when OxyContin was being developed and overpres prescribed and over used. In fact, it was being over pushed and sold by many doctors actually intentionally. There's actually a movie about that that was out recently that was awesome. But it was basically legalized pharmaceutical well dresseddressed drug pushers. And highly used in rural areas among people who really trusted their doctors. Absolutely.

Yeah, I remember all that. Yeah. Well, that's part of our story too. And that's also, that was Roger's drug of choice, was OxyContin. And so I found out later that he'd been injecting, he'd been using that regularly. And that comes later also, but I don't think that it had started at that point. But so September 28th and 29th was when the major, that abuse happened in Houston that Roger hurt us so bad. And then the day before Thanksgiving in November, my dad's mother, my grandmother died by suicide.

Oh gosh. Yeah, she had been diagnosed with mesothelioma earlier in the year. That's lung cancer, right? That's a big word for lung cancer. Yep. And she had, they had lived in New Orleans and lived down the street from a shingle manufacturing factory. So she wasn't a smoker.

No. It was an environment. She didn't smoke, drink, because nothing. Wow. She was a smoke, drink, cuss, nothing. She was a saint. Right? So she ends up with lung cancer and was prescribed 100 milligrams of Oxycontin twice a day. Holy smokes. She was stoned as a rat.

Didn't even know it. None of us knew. She was using what the doctor gave her. That's right. And back then,. She was using what the doctor gave her. That's right. And back then, everybody trusted the meds the doctor gave. And so none of us knew. And my mom and dad would go over, they lived just down the street from them and they would go over and check on them, you know, every day.

My mom would spend all day with them, just about. And she had been over there with them that day and they would go check on them that night and that particular night they went by and the lights were off like they were already gone to bed and so they said we'll come back in the morning. For whatever reason that night she did not take her night meds and so she did not have her 100 milligram Oxycontin that night. And so what we know now, you know, hindsight is 2020. What we know now is that she probably woke up in those terrible withdrawal symptoms. Which is pain. Very much pain.

Uh-huh. With our, with also dealing with lung cancer. Yep. And so she... She chose to end her life. Wow. Yeah. So that was, you know, dealing with the death of a parent and a grandparent is one thing,

but then the suicide makes it, it's another layer. You know, it's more of a tragic. You ask all the questions, why, how did we not know? How, how did we not see this coming? What was she feeling? How did, why did she not talk to us? You know? So, and a lot of it's a guessing game and it's hard.

Yeah. Okay. Tough year. Tough year. Then to make it worse, the next May, I lose my job at Mississippi Power. Why? You don't seem like the person who's something to lose their job. I wouldn't think so either, but I did and, you know, just reflecting on it, I think I just was not in a good head space and may not have been handling things the best way that maybe I should. And I didn't do anything outright. I didn't, you know, I didn't steal money or do, I mean, I didn't do anything.

Did you go outside and throw a bunch of tacos off somebody's car? No, I did not do that either. I don't. I think it was more of a, I do think that there was some of it was Roger was kind of stalker-ish calling up there. I was wondering about that actually. And I was working with an older lady who was very easily scared. She was probably scared.

And we didn't, she didn't understand me. I didn't understand her. And I think that probably, and she had been there for 25 years and you know. So you're out. I'm out. So now, so now. Bunch of trauma, daughter, no income. Yep.

So I find jobs the best I could with an associate business crap degree, right? I'm using your words. So I had a really good job. I was working at the casino. I was a credit supervisor up there and I learned all the inner workings of the casinos. Don't ever, like they don't build those things from people winning a bunch of money. Yeah, that's kind of how it works. Right. So, okay. So I learned a lot there, but I really learned that I knew it was time for me to leave there whenever they raised a little man that he

had a credit limit of like $200 because it was his play money. He was on Social Security, but that was his play money and he could do that. And so I came back one Monday and someone had raised it to like $1,500 and like he could never repay that. And so I knew like, why? Why would you do that? So I knew it was time for me to go. Just wasn't comfortable for you. That's just not good practice. I just didn't, that went against my gut. Like you can't do

that to people. So... Unfortunately you can. Yeah, you can. Should we? Maybe you shouldn't. Should we? Should and can or two different things Maybe there are lots of other people that can and do I couldn't do it. I get it It's not for me, right? It made me feel really yucky inside So but if you're like a credit manager at a casino, you're working in the back office

So you probably are making a nice living and doing okay. I was making a nice living. You figured it out. I was doing all right. But now you're going to quit because some little man got his pay money raised. I know. I quoted. I know. That's right.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, of course, you know, Kaitlyn's, Roger's in and out, like wanting to see her. He'll have periods of sobriety, doing okay. I decided to move to Hattiesburg. So I find a job from... From Laurel. From... I was still a Meridian.

From Meridian. Got it. Yep. So I decided to move to Hattiesburg. So I called my old mentor, the old teacher that taught me junior college, right, when I got my associate's degree. And I said, Miss McQueen, do you know of anybody that's hiring around Hattiesburg or Laurel? Because I really want to come back.

She said, as a matter of fact, we need somebody here in my department. Would you come? And I said, uh, yes, and she said okay, but it only pays eight dollars an hour Yikes, and I said, okay Okay, when you were in the credit department did you learn anything about math? Oh Math is horrible. I Don't ask me what six times nine is because I don't know. All right, 54. Go ahead.

I don't know. Social workers don't do math. So I took eight dollars an hour working at the junior college. So I think it was New Year's Day 2004. I met my parents. My landlord calls and he says, Rhonda, there is a brown truck down here in the woods. And I don't know if this guy is down here, like he's going to kill himself or he's waiting to hurt you. But somebody needs to come down here and like

see what's going on. So me and dad call the sheriff's department and we go from his house to where I had just rented this house and I'm like, I'm going to get kicked out of this place. And so we get there and Roger is there at my house. He had already been inside my house and I don't think he had been in my house yet. No, he, we were afraid he was going in the house. So he's there at the house. He tries to come in the house when we get there. Dad, instead of punching him in the face, he just pushed him down the stairs in front

of the sheriff's deputy and the deputy was okay with it because he kind of knew the backstory. And so dad finally says, Roger, how much money would it take to get you out of Mississippi? He says, I don't know, Robert, what you got? And dad pulls out his wallet and handed him whatever cash he had in his wallet. It was a couple hundred dollars. Roger said, all right. And that's the last time I saw him. talking to Roger You're kidding me. 200 bucks? Katie About 200 bucks. Dr. Darrell Best 200 bucks ever spent.

Katie I think so. So, but before he left town, we left, we left before because we were scared. We went back because Caitlin was at mom and dad's house. So while we were gone, he broke into my house, destroyed, you know, broke the washer and dryer, the stove, wrote little hateful notes and hid everywhere. Put a bullet in my shower, wrote notes in a magic marker on the mirror. Vengeance is mine. Um, just little reminders that he was going to get me. Just always be looking over my shoulder.

I never saw him again until I got a call. Well, through the years years he called a few times and when he called when I got a call from Texas because I knew he was going to Texas. When I got a call from Texas I answered it because I wanted to make sure where he was. I want to make sure you're not here. You're not in Mississippi. Where are you? So I would talk to him, what are you up to? And he was usually waiting for the liquor store to open. A couple times he asked me to help him find a rehab facility and I would look up numbers and give him numbers, but that's about as far as it would go. He ended up living in a homeless shelter in San Antonio, Texas.

And around the middle of June of 2016, we got a phone call from the medical examiner's office looking for his next of kin. And so he had, he passed away on Father's Day 2016. On the one hand, sadly that had to have been a little bit of a relief. Because the truth is you were being stalked after everything else. On the other hand, addiction's a beast. And the guy was sick. He was very sick.

And those are the conversations that I've had with my daughter over the years. She hasn't seen her dad since she was four. And again, on the one hand, that's probably great. On the other hand, taking it from a guy whose dad left when he was four, you always wonder. It's easier when you can reconcile it against a disease. But I mean, that is a long time to deal with that stuff. But you're an asperg. Yeah. You're working for eight bucks an hour and

you're trying to find a future. So how'd that work? So after about six months of living on my own, someone at the college came to me, you know, I'm struggling. I'm a single mom, paying bills, $8 an hour, car note, rent, all that stuff, daycare. Someone comes up and they say, hey Rhonda, how would you like to come live in the dorm and be a dorm mom? You can live here in this three bedroom dorm room for free. The electricity's free. The phone is free.

Cable is free. Come live here. Jump, gone. I'm like, okay, how long do I have to get there? And so I moved into the dorm. It was like, it just fell from the sky. It was great. And it was good for my daughter too, because she was on campus with all the girls and she

got to do hair and dress up and all that good stuff. So it was really fun for her. So I did that for about a year and that's about all I could take because we had nightly fire drills because of hair spray and burnt toast and you name it. You know, so it was hard on one hand, but it certainly gave me the time to get my stuff together and figure out what I was going to do next. Certainly a blessing. Yes, very much so. So then we were able to move out of there into a house.

But while I was working there, those same mentors, the people in my department, you know, they said, you know, you really need to go back to school. I'm like, for what? Like what am I going to do? What am I going to do? What am I going to do? And you know, they saw potential in me that I did not see in myself at that point. And so the only thing I could think of to do was to try to figure out why people do the things they do. That was my motivation for going back to school.

This is where the connection to the past starts with the future, right here. Yeah. Why do people, why would a man who had everything give it up for a drug? And so that was my mission to figure that out. And so I enrolled at the University of Southern Mississippi to go to night classes in psychology because I thought, I mean, I didn't really know much about, you know, what I could do with that job. I just wanted to figure that out. I wanted the knowledge. And so I went to night classes and I got my bachelor's degree in psychology. And so did that at night while I was working full-time and I mean you just do what you got to do. And then? And

then I went to work for community mental health and that's where I found my people. So who were they? So I started working with individuals who struggle with severe mental illness. So people that have schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, people who may be suicidal, people who struggle with depression, anxiety, women who have been through abusive relationships, people who deal with addictions, like all of those people. Those are my people. Why are those your people? I don't know. I guess I can relate on some level. I don't know. There's so much empathy.

Isn't that interesting? I don't know. I just, I see the hope maybe when other people don't. I think there's always hope. There is always, always, always hope. I'm being redundant because I used this phrase very recently in another interview, but I'm going to say it again because it's appropriate. I don't think people care at all how much you know until they know how much you care. Yeah. And I get why those are your people because you know either through your own experience, through women who are in abusive relationships and all of that,

or you know through your experience with Roger what addiction and mental illness can look like. You've experienced all of it and because you understand and experience it you can relate to it and if you relate to it you have the ability to help. Yep. But you're not a doctor yet. Not yet. So how's that happen? So I'm working at the Community Mental Health Center as a case manager and so that means that I'm going out to people's houses, I'm picking them up for doctor's appointments, making sure that they have their medications.

Full on social work. Full on social work. But I just have a degree in psychology. Like I don't know, I don't even know what social work is at this point. But I was working for a social worker. His name is Scott Ratcliffe. And he tells people that he raised me as a baby social worker. He had been a social worker since 1972.

Wow. And so he has seen it all. And he is my cheerleader, my mentor. One of the reasons that I am a doctor in social work because he said, do you want to, he just came back in my office one day and said, do you want to be a case manager your whole life? And I'm like, I don't know Scott, like what else is there to do? Because you know, I'm still kind of ignorant to the profession itself. I'm just doing my job.

I'm trying to raise a kid by myself. I'm trying to pay my bills, you know, I'm just doing the best I can. Dealing with my own trauma, dealing with my own stuff too at the same time. And so, but I'm getting it. I'm getting there, you know? And so he says, why don't you go back to school for social work? That USM has a great graduate degree program. I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I can do it like a

master's degree. I don't know. I mean, like, you can do a master's degree. You need to go do it. So I call USM. What do I have to do to get in this program? And I'm accepted into the program. Oddly enough, I am able to go to classes, like in the middle of the day, they let me go during work hours. Like it is supernatural, like how I was able to get this done. I got internships at the place that I work, so it was kind of paid internships. We don't get to do that anymore. Like that was back before, I guess, before they caught on to what we were doing.

So I was able to do my internships there. As soon as I finished, I got my graduate degree. Scott did my, you have to have two years of clinical supervision after you get your graduate degree to get your clinical license. We started that immediately. So Scott was my clinical supervisor for two years postgraduate. Then while I was doing that I was working at an inpatient psychiatric facility and so that was very interesting because it's a different day every day because you just don't know

and that's when I really, really learned about people are really, really, it's an illness. Like people are really sick. And when we see people that that we say are homeless on the street, I know, because I've seen them in the hospital. You know, it's not always what people think. And so I have such a big... The demographics of the homeless is that over 80% are, have a clinically diagnosed mental illness and or substance abuse problem and most have both. Absolutely. So when you look down on that homeless person on the sidewalk acting crazy or looking nuts or whatever and they are scary and not particularly attractive most times, we really got to check

ourselves and remember they're sick. They're no different than a person with cancer except their sickness is just a lot more socially unacceptable. Absolutely. Those are my people. They're no different than a person with cancer, except their sickness is just a lot more socially unacceptable. Absolutely. Those are my people, Bill. Those are your people. We'll be right back. When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence. Radios were smashed, cassettes

burned, you could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules. And yet, Afghans did it anyway. This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol. The danger they endured. They said my head should be cut off. The joy they brought to the nation. You're free completely. No one is there to destroy you. No one is there to destroy you. I'm John Legend. Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Last season, millions tuned into the Betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning, and now we're sharing an all-new story of betrayal. Stacey thought she had the perfect husband. Doctor, father, family man. It was the perfect cover for Justin Rutherford to hide behind. They led me into the house, and I mean it was like a movie. He was sitting at our kitchen table. The cops were guarding him. Stacey learned how far her husband would go to save himself.

I slept with a loaded gun next to my bed. He did not just say I wish she was dead. He actually gave details and explained different scenarios on how to kill him. He, to me, is scarier than Jeffrey Dahmer. ["I'm Not a Man," by The Bachelorette plays in background.] Listen to Betrayal on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Snakes, zombies, sharks, heights, speaking in public, the list of fears is endless. But while you're clutching your blanket in the dark, wondering if that sound in the hall was actually a footstep, the real danger is in your hand, when you're behind the wheel. And while you might think a great white shark is scary, what's really terrifying and even deadly is distracted driving. And while you might think a great white shark is scary, what's really terrifying and even deadly is distracted driving. Eyes Forward, Don't Drive Distracted,

brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. First, streaming live only on Hulu. Don't miss. Big Sean, Camila Cabello, Doja Cat, Gwen Stefani, Hozier, Keith Urban, New Kids on the Block, Paramore, Shaboosie, The Black Crows, Thomas Rhett, Victoria Monet, and more. Get tickets to our 2024 iHeart Radio Music Festival, presented by Capital One right now, before they sell out at aexs.com. Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt, and we're the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult,

a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts. It's a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting. Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more. We're back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult one life lesson at a time. And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you. So let's figure this stuff out together.

This season, we're going to talk about whether or not we're financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership. We're going to figure out the benefits of a high yield savings account. And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party? All that plus so much more. Let's learn about all of it and then some. Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Grown Up Stuff. So after two years this inpatient thing, you decide to be doc? Well yes, so I get a job offer after I get my LCSW. I get a job offer to go- You're what? LCSW, licensed certified social worker. Got it. Okay. That's the highest licensure that you can get as a social worker.

And so I get a job offer to go work in a clinic for our community hospital that's in Laurel, South Central Regional Medical Center. And so I'm working at the clinic there and just doing one-on-one therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever people need. And so for about three years, I was the only therapist in the clinic and certainly the only one in our area that took Medicaid, Medicare, other than the Community Mental Health Center that is like governed by the Department of Mental Health. That had to have been an enormous workload. It's 40 hours a week, 40 people a week, eight hours a day. And

my dad brought it up at dinner last night. He said that I came to his house one day with tears in my eyes and I sat down and said, can you imagine having a job where every single person that you talk to cries for a whole hour in front of you? And sometimes those were the days. No, I actually can't imagine that. Right? Sometimes.

I can't imagine that and going home and being able to put a smile on your face and be normal. Yeah. Sometimes. It's got a weight on you. Yeah. Well, we have to take care of ourselves. Right. Right? I get that. And so that's a full-time job too.

You do that. You have to learn how to separate what's going on in someone else's life and what I have control over. And so there's an art to that. It's a skill that we have to, as clinicians, as therapists, that's what we have to do. We have to figure out how to do that for ourselves. And so I did that for about eight and a half years and very interesting, very rewarding work for sure. You grow very attached to the people

that tell you everything about their lives that they have never told anyone ever before. Yeah, like the stuff that you wouldn't tell anybody. Yeah, absolutely. Same exact dynamic. Same thing. Yep. And so I got it.

And I could tell the minute a woman would walk in my office. You knew what abuse looked like. I knew what it was. Wow. Yeah. And I would tell the minute a woman would walk in my office. You knew what abuse looked like. I knew what it was. Wow. Yeah, and I would tell her. Don't you think those people could also tell that you, why you empathized? I think so.

There were a few occasions, you know, they teach us there are boundaries you don't tell, don't lie a lot of self-disclosure, you know, there were times that I said, I'm gonna tell you how I know. And this is what has to happen. I get that, but I'm gonna tell you something. I think everybody has experienced,

even in just a medical doctor, the difference and an antiseptic professional approach and an empathetic approach that illustrates, I know what you're going through. You don't even have to tell somebody often for someone to feel that empathy and that connection. So I got to believe many of the people you worked with. Okay. so eight years. Eight years. And?

During that time, when I first started that job, there were some cases that walked in the door and I was like, uh, I don't know how to help this person. Like I don't know, I didn't know the clinical approach to certain problems. Did you ever look at them and say, sir, you're messed up as a soup sandwich? No. Oh. I don't know if that was proper. I faked it. I just... And then I looked, I did some research when I got home and so that I knew what to do the next time they came.

Okay. So you never say that to them. No. I'm kidding, Rhonda. Obviously. Okay. So got it. Never knew. Yeah. But, so I said to myself, you need more knowledge. You need to go back to school. And so I enrolled at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. At what age? At that time, well, I graduated when I was 48. So I was about 45.

That is incredible that you are still yearning for more and advancing yourself long after most people have said, all right, I'm just cruising here. Well, I wanted to help people the best that I could. I did not wanna halfway do it, right? That's the same fabric of the same person who with crusted blood on their ears and dried up blood on their t-shirt looked at their parents was more concerned about how their heart hurt. That is the same fabric. It is. Well, so that's how I got to be a doctor.

Well, so that's how I got to be a doctor. So I graduated with a near 4.0 with my doctorate at University of Tennessee. And so what did I do next? Well I finished working at South Central for that eight and a half years. And then I just kind of thought, am I really doing as much as I can for the most people? Am I getting the most bang from a buck? You know, it was one at a time. How can I help the most? How can I do the most good? And I thought we really

need to change the system. The systems are what's broken because I see all the same problems over and over and over. Just say Alex, is that not deja vu all over again? I don't know whose episode is gonna air first so I don't even know how to tease this but okay so Trina with one hour give an hour said that their entire approach to improving mental health is recognizing that the system as it is can't do enough and we have to break it down and be more creative and reach more people.

Yes, yes, yes. It is, I swear, I feel like I'm listening to the same conversation, this part, the same conversation. And what they are doing is fascinating, but in a microcosm of that, you're thinking that in your head. So what's the answer for you? Well, I just thought to reach more people, we have to have more people, more boots on the ground. We have to have more people that are equipped to help more people. I should just interviewed you and train it together.

That is incredible. That's exactly what she says. So. So I applied for a job as a professor at the university where I got my master's degree. I started actually doing some adjunct teaching work at Tennessee first, just to test the waters, to see if it was what I really wanted to do, and I loved it. And so I did adjunct teaching

at Tennessee for a couple of years. And so when did you become a professor at Southern Miss? This is my second year. So 2022. So at the ripe age of somewhere around 50. 51 or 2. You decided I'm going to start a new career. I'm going to be a professor of social work and some other stuff, I guess. Yes.

So what do you teach? So I teach in the Bachelor of Social Work program and the Master of Social Work program. So I think next year I will just be teaching in the graduate school. All right. But what are the classes? Okay. So I teach policy classes, social welfare policy. I.e. systems.

Systems, social entrepreneurship. That's an interesting, what does that mean? That is one of my favorites. So these students are graduate students and at the beginning of the semester, I asked them to find, what is your passion? What are you passionate about? What's the population that you wanna work with?

Who are they and why? And so we spend the first few classes talking about that. And then, okay, how are you going to help them? Give me an idea. Outside of government programs, because we know how well that's working out for us, right? If we were all to come up with an idea, kind of like what they do on the army of normal folks. Right? Nice plug. Thanks.

Well, I use that in my class. Well, we're going to talk about that. So ironically enough, and I'm not pitching Trina to you, but that's also what they look for is creative, entrepreneurial, outside of the box, system breaking ideas to reach more people and theirs is in creating certified peer group leaders and all this other thing. What you're doing is trying to train their first level, which is therapists. That's right. Or just social workers that may work in the systems themselves.

Right. Right. But you are also challenging them to be creative and think outside the construct of even their own curriculum. Absolutely. Which is cool. We'll be right back. So here we go. Yes. All of that to get to this point and now we're going to set the table.

So your dad threw a bunch of tacos on the ground and you moved to Mississippi, white picket fence, wonderful family. You get into a really toxic relationship that is controlled by alcohol and drug abuse. While you're trying to be a mother and you're trying to deal with your own demons, you finally get out of it after a near-death experience. You were stalked. And through all of it, you bounce around from power and light to a casino to mentors telling you, you've got more to give, get educated, move on up and you help people and all the while using your experience and your empathy to help folks to then become a doctor because you decide I can help people one-on-one every hour

or I can teach classes of these people to go out and do exponentially more than I could do by myself and that's where you end up. That's right. And one day you're screwing around and you hear an episode of An Army of Normal Folks. That's correct. Where did you first hear An Army of Normal Folks?

Well, that's kind of a weird story too. I met Ryan with Iron Lights. Ryan is the president of Iron Lights who is who Alex, our producer, works with and for to put together all of the production, the music, the artwork, the social media, and everything else. They are our production arm. Right. Lights out of Chicago. Yes. So how do you meet Ryan?

So I met Ryan in New York last year at a songwriting workshop slash retreat in New York. Got it. With our favorite band Blue October. Like I love Blue October. Love, love, love. So we're up there, spend the week up there. No, I didn't really talk to him,

didn't know much about him. And then my daughter and I decide, the next month or so, to go to Knoxville to a Blue October concert. And there's Ryan and his wife, and we run into him again there. And I'm like, oh my gosh, Ryan. So during the middle of the set, we're like, well, what do you do for a living?

Oh, well. And if you know Ryan, you know, he's like, well, I have this little thing and we do this policy stuff and I'm like, oh my God, I teach policy. And so we hit it off and we start talking about all these things. I said, I need you to come talk to my classes. Oh, that'd be great. And so we get to talking about all the things that we do. And so he invites me to the summit in Nashville,

which is where I heard your voice. Well, let me back up a little bit. After I had met Ryan at that con, you know, after the concert, he tells me about iron light. So I'm like, me about iron light. So I'm like, what is iron light? So I started looking around and then I stumbled across Army and Normal Folks. I started listening to it. I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I want to be a part of this. I love this.

This is my, this is what I'm talking about. Did you know then you'd be interviewed for it? No. I'm wondering now, what am I doing you'd be interviewed for it? No! Okay, go ahead. I'm wondering now, what am I doing here? Well, we're about to tell everybody. Oh my gosh, and so at the summit, I hear your voice across the room. I'm like, that's Bill Courtney.

Oh my gosh, that's Bill Courtney. So that's when I go over to you and I'm like, you're Bill Courtney, aren't you? Yep, and that's when you tell me that you made an Army of Normal Folks part of your teaching curriculum. Yes. Which is at the top of the show. I said I have been complimented. You know, this is not me, but I've got a national bestseller book, Academy Award winning film and all kinds of stuff. And I've been overrun with complimentary things.

And you always wanna be gracious. But I don't, I really do not take myself that seriously. And most all of this just kinda happened and I'm still not sure why. But when I heard that you were using our podcast as part of your curriculum to teach people, that mattered to me. That really meant something that what we're doing can actually do exactly what we sought out to do.

We want an army of normal folks to be entertaining. We want people to laugh. We want people to cry. We want people to think, much like you have done in this interview so far. That is what we want. It has to be entertaining or else people aren't going to listen every week. But wrapped up in all of that is a greater purpose. And I'm not going to say it's a movement. I'm going to call it just something that matters, you know? And if the stuff we're producing can be used in a way that matters to young people and their education as they go out to help the masses, then we've succeeded.

And so when you told me that, I really mean this from the bottom of my heart. I was so humbled by that and really honored. And so why are you here is to share with our audience, to say, look at this normal person who came from a great normal middle class, upper middle class family, went through her own trauma, came out the backside, redeemed and doing amazing things. But in the process, through a weird sort of circumstances, found an army of normal folks and is now using it and we just couldn't be more honored. So what does using it look like?

And I'm gonna let you go. Because you got some paper in front of you girl. I am a professor and I always have paper in front of me. Yeah, you're a doctor. You teach school, you're gonna have paper. Yes. So I brought the assignment with me just so you would know kind of what it looks like. Well, I want everybody to know. In the policy classes that I teach,

we spend a lot of time talking about how broken everything is because we, a lot of our systems are broken. And so there's a lot of bleakness, a lot of dreariness, a lot of depression, a lot of, and so the students are sometimes very disillusioned and they're just not feeling great about what are we going into in this profession, right? Because, well, at the point in the semester that we're talking about how terrible the systems are, they don't see that just yet, right? Do the systems include our politics, our government, all of it? Yes.

So we're talking about a broad policy discussion, not just mental health policy, but all of the policy that affects mental health. It's healthcare, racism, current events. I have them, like you need to find a current event and write about it. Things in the state government in the area, like what's going on right now, the Jackson water crisis, like what is it that's going on that affects our people? Right. And so there's a lot of yuck for a while.

And so I could tell that they were getting a little bit, and so I thought, you know what, they need to hear that change is possible. They need to hear that people can really do some things. That normal folks can make a difference. Normal people, because they're normal people. They see themselves as normal. We all see ourselves as normal people. Right.

And I think there's a sense of hopelessness when you are standing in the middle of all of this and it seems so big. What can I do to fix this? Right? That's the challenge. Yes. And so I needed them to see that people are doing even little things to change it. And this was the perfect example because you're talking every week about people that are doing things to help people every single day. And so I have them go and listen to an episode of Army of Normal Folks. Do you choose it or one of their choosing? No, they choose it. So, I tell them, here's the assignment. Listen to an episode of the podcast, an Army of Normal Folks,

and choose an episode that is meaningful to you. And I give them a list and a synopsis of all of the episodes. Do not choose the first one on the playlist. I have to tell them that because if I don't, they will. I said, unless it's particularly meaningful to you and then I want them to give me a synopsis so that I know that they really listened. Describe the population that they serve, what they did and why, how did their actions affect issues on the micro and the macro level like as an

individual and systemic like the bigger level, like as an individual and systemic, like the bigger level, and be specific. And then I asked them to explain why they chose that particular episode. What was it meaningful to them? What made it meaningful to them? Explain the importance of everyday citizens taking action in their communities

and how this action affects change in society as a whole on a systemic level, and what are some ways to encourage each other to model what these normal folks have done. How do we encourage action that will help populations on a greater level? So the goal of this assignment is to get them thinking about how do they do that? How can I be thinking about affecting change just as a normal person in Hattiesburg, Mississippi?

We'll be right back. When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence. Radios were smashed, cassettes burned. You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules. And yet, Afghans did it anyway. This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American

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I slept with a loaded gun next to my bed. He did not just say I wish she was dead. He actually gave details and explained different scenarios on how to kill him. He to me is scarier than Jeffrey Dahmer. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check the backseat. Check the backseat. Hi, come here. Check the backseat.

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So tell me what happened. So they turned in some very, very thoughtful answers. And I am extremely proud. I can. This person chose Luke Mickelson. Always one of my favorite, oh shoot, I shouldn't say that, y'all are all my favorite. But Luke Mickelson is particularly interesting,

sleep in heavenly peace, right? I can't believe I remember that. Luke, I remember you, go ahead. This person shows this particular episode because many of my friends were resorting to using two or three blankets on the floor to find comfort for the night. Because they didn't have a bed as a child.

Lived experience. Yep. And she said it indeed starts with ordinary people living their everyday lives setting off a domino effect of positive change. And so this person chose Jessica Lamb. Several people chose Jessica Lam's episode. Jessica Lam is pretty cool. Yep. I think it's important for everyday citizens to do their best to help people around them. This goes from working with a certain population to just giving others in your community a helping hand or resource to someone who can help them better. Just go lamb another person who was through some unbelievable trauma. Yes, she did. She said it can become something bigger and help a wide range of people. I think

a good way to encourage people model the podcast or those on it would be just to speak up, speak up in your community about what you believe in and find a population that you want to help. So just speak up. Make connections. As a future social worker, this was very eye-opening episode. This was Tiani Shoemaker Clyde. Yeah, she is in Salt Lake

and they go and basically give an unwed mother with a bunch of kids a day out to be normal while they go clean and fix up their house. And how simple of a concept is that? How hard is that? How hard is that, right? So she chose this, she said it was very eye-opening because most communities are very welcoming and willing to support other people. It shows why community engagement matters. When the community is engaged, it brings out other ideas and it improves people's knowledge and makes the community more aware. I put a star by this one. This one was Aaron Smith advocating for Thomas because he was an Ole Miss student. So Aaron Smith is from Oxford and Thomas was somebody that was in foster care that she

helped. Thomas was whipped, sexually assaulted, abused from childhood all the way into college and was basically dropped off at Ole Miss, had great grades, great ACT scores, basically dropped off at college with no love, no sport. And he found an advocate in Aaron Smith and he is now wanting to go into social work and psychology. Yay. Yeah.

What'd they say about that? She said, by knowing that it took one person and a lot of hard work to get this done, it encourages me to put something in the works for my this one episode. Some way we can encourage other people to model normal folks by spreading awareness, advocating, and holding each other accountable and connecting with each other. Sometimes thinking about acting for the bigger population can seem daunting, but there have been so many times that encouraging smaller action plans lead to huge organizations and much bigger action because of the growth and connection they affect on the world.

This was a Jessica Lam. I love that one because it's true. So many of the people we've interviewed just started out with a small thing. They never expected to be something. And now they're helping hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. And the point is so many people say, I want to help, but where do I start? We start with the people closest to you and help five help 10. And who knows where it goes.

Yep. Um, this one was Troy and Erica Andrews. They adopted. Let's see, if we do not take action on our communities and just wait for everything to be done for us, nothing will likely be done. That emulates the somebody ought to do something about that. And the question is who's somebody. Right. Amy Crenshaw. Amy Crenshaw is awesome.

I chose this episode because community-based work is what I've always wanted to do. I think the best way to start change is by getting involved in the community and helping anyone in need. I like the unique fact that everyone is treated equally and with respect. This organization is important because they take donations that allow them to give back to the community. They also allow anyone to volunteer and help out. Community Cafe, which is you go and eat and it's a first-class meal and you pay what you can afford to pay.

And if you can afford to pay more, you do. And if you can afford to pay less, you do. Everybody eats and if you can afford to pay nothing, you still eat a great meal, but you owe an hour in the kitchen to wash dishes or whatever. And so the entire community can go to a place and eat. And the irony of that is you will have homeless people sitting next to lawyers eating lunch and

They interact and learn about each other community cafe, mm-hmm So this one is about Deb Ellinger who works with women who are trafficked, right? Which is an intense podcast. Mm-hmm. She said I chose this topic because of the population professors often ask what population we want to work with, and I'm too nervous to say because I don't have a population. I only know that I have a purpose. My purpose is to be that person that made me feel worthy and deserving of the life that I want to achieve. Maybe that's why this story hit home.

Wow. That's awesome. want to achieve. Maybe that's why this story hit home. That's awesome. This story meant so much to me. I also learned something from it that showed me how to take action in a community the way that I was wanting to do when you mentioned it in class, but didn't know how to start it. I thought it had to have a big outcome first. Her story shifted my focus to one action and way of life rather than the outcome because we cannot control the outcome. Wow. That is so awesome.

And it goes on and on and on. Give me one more. Give me one more goody. Tiani Shoemaker Clyde. So there's two more for her. Let's see. I chose this episode because I'm a single mom and I love the idea of helping other single mom.

No one understands how stressful it is except for someone who's going through it too. to. Well, there were three of them that mentioned her. Some of them are, I mean, they're probably in their 30s. I chose this episode for two reasons. The first reason is because I was raised by a single mother. I did not truly understand how hard it must have been for my mom until I had my own daughter and realized how blessed I am to have her father to be an active part of her life. The second reason I chose this episode is because at one point in my life

I wanted to open a shelter that provided services for single mothers and children. And so I think by doing this assignment it helps them to really see that you can do these things that because several of these have said I've wanted to do it but didn't know how. Well and that's part of the whole idea is we want to encourage people to listen long enough to find a place where their passion and their discipline, their passion and their discipline, their passion and their abilities meet at opportunity. And if you have the ability and you're passionate about it, and you see an opportunity, and then you have the temerity

to simply do it, then we can change our society. And to hear your students say, I'm encouraged by this person because it shows me I can, that's the nexus of the show. Yes. And to see a person who's wound through life to get where you are now using the show to encourage her students to become a part of the army of normal folks, which I maintain is the only thing that's really going to have a significant effect on change in our society, is so humbling and rewarding all at once. Right.

What's next? Well, I hope I will teach the social entrepreneurship class again because this last semester... Is that what this class came from? I think this class was in my policy class. Got it. But... It could certainly be used in social entrepreneurship as well. I did use it, but I used, they had to listen to a podcast, an episode of the podcast, but they didn't necessarily have to do this assignment because that class is more about coming up

with your own. Yeah, but the creativity of many of our guests is a way for them to... Yeah, that's cool. So they have to watch clips. So they watched a clip of Sherry Garcia. Huh, she's hilarious. Is she not hilarious? Yes, I told you when I first listened to her, when I listened to her episode, I sobbed like a baby because it just hit me somewhere. Just the whole thing just got me.

And I told her that. You met her in Nashville, didn't you? Yes, I did. Yes, and I told her that. But they have to watch, let's see, they watched Sherri Garcia, they watched Chad Hauser. Hauser in Hauser. In Dallas.

Yes. Oh my goodness. I wish I could remember them all, but there were several. They have been on this podcast that I had them watch, you know, YouTube videos or whatever on them to get ideas about what is your, if your passion is this population, here are some ideas of what people have done. Call them. Listen to the podcast. They give you their number and their email address. Get some ideas. Find out how you can start this in Mississippi. Why can't we? Right? Which is always the question we should be asking, not how

can I, but why can I. Yes. I had a student in this last semester, his name is Joe. He was a corrections officer in the Harrison County jail system, or I guess, Sheriff's Department, and then got into social work. He is originally from Liberia, Africa, immigrated here when he was a child and had to spend, I think, two years in a... I'm telling his story for him, but I don't think he would mind. Two years in a refugee camp before they actually got to the United States. Came over here, became a citizen, joined the Air Force, then became a sheriff's deputy. Now he's becoming a social worker, getting his master's degree in social

work, just graduated. Listened to the podcast, listened to Sherry Garcia's podcast, watched her video. His idea, because he's worked in the prison system, was to help bridge the gap between people coming out of the jail system and into the job market and wants to also do similar to what Sherry does. And that gap is the most dangerous time. Yes. And that's where his passion is.

So we have a part of the business school at USM is an incubator and they put into small businesses like they help you develop business ideas and things like that. They have a golden pitch idea every year that you can pitch your idea to them and they help you develop it, but it's a competition. And so I announced it. Hey, here's money for your idea in my entrepreneurship class. Joe was the only one that, uh, entered the competition. He made it to the final round.

Wow. Out of, I don't know, 30 people in the college that entered, he made it to the top eight. And so I went and listened. Of course, you know, there's no return on investment with social entrepreneurship, you know, so he didn't win because apps won. You know what I mean? It's still vetting and learning and going through it.

Yeah, yeah, I know. It was, it was a great... Let's be honest, this guy started a refugee camp in Liberia and now he's presenting to a bunch of people at Southern Miss ideas on how to help curb recidivism. Yes. Wow. I am so proud. You should be.

Yes, I was so proud. So he is going to do great things. I cannot tell you how honored I am that our little experiment show here, one has grown the way it's grown and has the listenership it does. And we are killing ourselves to continue to grow it, not because it puts feathers in our hat, but because the more listeners, the more impact and the more impact, the more things that can change. But to know that it's being used in a curriculum, especially with someone with your perspective and your life story and your background, trying to help students

see a better way. It's just so encouraging because your goal of how can I help the most one-on-one in an hour or teach an army of people to go on and do one-on-one an hour, the exponential growth of your efforts through teaching and then to be even a small part of that effort is, Rhonda, such an honor. And it is such a cool story. And I just, I don't know, maybe you're going to go into physics when you're 63. I don't know what the world's going to be. I can promise that is not gonna happen. No, no, no, no, no. Rhonda, if there are educators listening, because this could be done in high school.

Oh, absolutely. This could be done in community colleges. This could be done outside of social work. This could work in leadership classes. This could work in leadership classes. This could work in all kinds of stuff. But if someone wants to get your perspective on it that's an educator, how do they get in touch with you? My email address is dr, as in doctor, drrsmith, S-M-I-T-H, seven zero at gmail.com. And you'll answer an email. Absolutely. I watched my email every minute.

Rhonda, thanks for coming to Memphis. Thanks for sharing this. Thanks for sharing, first of all, being so transparent and the only word that's coming to my mind emotionally naked about what you went through to be able to get where you are. Because I think the redemption is, I don't think you'd be as good as what you are right now had you not suffered the misery you suffered.

I agree. So that's gotta be the silver lining and the blessing and all of it. Yeah. But thanks for that. Thanks for coming and the blessing in all of it. But thanks for that. Thanks for coming to Memphis and sharing all of that because I do think that's gotta be encouraging to somebody listening to this. But the other thing is, thanks so much for encouraging me.

You know, I've got a business to run. I've got four kids, two of which are getting married. I've got all kinds of things going on in my life. This is encouraging to me because maybe what we're doing is making a little bit of a difference and at least helping in some corners of the world. I'm humbled, honored, again, I'm being redundant, but I'm humbled, honored and really encouraged by it. And I hope you keep using it every year and I hope kids keep growing from it. Maybe one day

I can get to Hattiesburg when school's in and visit your students with you. I would really like to do that one day. So certainly there's got to be a way we could do that. Absolutely. We're going to make that happen. Yes. And I want you to know, if I'm counting correctly, I teach four classes a semester. I have about 20, 25. If I use this in every class, I'm teaching 100 students a semester. How many is that in two years? How many is that in two years? 400 people have already had these assignments.

That's amazing. That's awesome. I hope they're still listening for goodness sakes. I hope they're regular listeners. Well you know college students, you know, it's hard. Odds are of the 400, 125 are. So that's great. Maybe we ought to pay you a side fee as a publicist.

Maybe, you should. Maybe you should do that. I will do it, yes. I think it's worth it, I really do. Mom, Dad, thanks for joining. Thanks for hanging out with us and thanks for coming up to Memphis. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here

and Rhonda, we will meet again. I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you rest of your time here. Rhonda, we will meet again. I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you for joining us this week. If Rhonda Smith or other guests have inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action by using an army of normal folks in your classroom,

your place of worship, with your family or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normal folks dot us and I swear to you, I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and on social. Y'all subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it, become a premium member at NormalFolks.us. All of these things that will help us grow an army of normal folks. Thanks to our producer, Ironlight Labs. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week.

This is the story of deception. wherever you get your podcast. Last season, millions tuned into the Betrayal podcast to hear a shocking story of deception. I'm Andrea Gunning, and now we're sharing an all new story of Betrayal. Justin Rutherford, doctor, father, family man. It was the perfect cover to hide behind. Detective Weaver said, I'm sure you know why we're here. I was like, what in the world is going on?

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