An Army of Normal Folks - Jeff Deskovic: The Wrongfully Convicted Man Freeing Others Just Like Himself (Pt 2)

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

At 16 years old, Jeff was wrongfully convicted of raping and murdering a classmate. And after sixteen years in prison, he was finally exonerated. Rather than being dominated by victimhood that no one would have blamed him for, Jeff went to work fighting to free others who’ve been wrongly convicted and he's already freed 11 folks! Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Jeff Jeskovic right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. I'm Hannah Storm and my podcast NBA DNA with Hannah Storm digs deep into the history of professional basketball along with my own as one of the first female sportscasters. Now let's get you up to speed on what else happened around the NBA today. We talked to all sorts of people I interacted with from Dr. J to Charles Barkley and recap iconic moments.

Yes, he's got it. Here he comes. Way rock the baby to sleep and slam dunk. As well as some of the wild stories behind the scenes. We were like, what? What are we in for? The scoreboard crashes before we even tip a game off. Today, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant.

Players are multimillionaires and cultural icons. And these stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Listen to NBA DNA with Hannah Storm on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Johnny B. Goode, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of VidCon.

Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them.

They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratec, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world, until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson.

How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, from Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica, a daily podcast that introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten. This month, we're bringing you the stories of disappearing acts. There's the 17th century fraudster who convinced men she was a German princess.

The 1950s folk singer who literally drove off into the sunset and was never heard from again. The First Nations activist whose kidnapping and murder ignited decades of discourse about Indigenous women's disappearances. And the young daughter of a Russian Tsar whose legendary escape led to even more intrigue and speculation. These stories make us consider what it means to disappear and why a woman might even want to make herself scarce. Listen to a manica on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Is your mom and grandmother in the court? My mother and my aunt were. Were they beside themselves? They were. They had to have known you were getting railroaded and watching every step of it. Well, no. They were beside themselves at the verdict. But prior to that, they believed the system worked and they thought I was going to be found not guilty as did I.

And yeah, did you? Well, I didn't initially and as a result of that I did feel depressed and at one point I made a suicide attempt which resulted in my being involuntarily hospitalized but at some point after that. When did you make a suicide attempt? That was, so I was in a county jail for 35 days, and then I got bailed out. And a few days later, I made a suicide attempt.

I took an entire bottle of extra strength Tylenol, which hadn't been open, and I went to sleep. And I intended never to wake up again. And I did. At 16 years old. At 16 years old. Because I felt, look, I thought I was going back to my life. And there was no going back to it.

You know, I was a hated figure in Peekskill. Everybody presumed my guilt. I wasn't allowed to go back to school, and none of the kids' parents were willing to let them play with me. I felt it was dangerous just to be outside, so I felt like my life was over. But at some point, you know,

I began to believe I would be found not guilty and you start to hope that. And when I would question my lawyer about, well, what are you doing? What's our strategy? How are we going to... I mean, he said, look, you're a kid, I'm the lawyer, right? You already thought you were smarter than adults once. Look at where that ended up.

Just sit back and let me do my job. With that argument, that's what I did. Adam Ligato So, is it your belief that this attorney was a jackass or just overworked? Dr. Clement O'Brien It's my belief that he threw the case, because when I've met with many lawyers since I've been home and they were all curious who defended me and when I mentioned his name, they're all surprised because they said that they've either tried cases with or against him or

knew of his reputation and he was good, a good trial lawyer. So I think that he, I think but can't prove that he threw the case because just the deficiencies that I outlined already, present the alibi, emphasize the DNA, you have to challenge the confession. I mean, these are all elementary things. A good third year law student would know that. Do you think public defenders get overwhelmed? I do.

I think that, you know, they have way too large a caseload. It's not uncommon for one public defender to have a hundred case at the same time. That's too many. There's no way you can do somebody justice that way. Exactly. And it's a different... The big budgetary difference between the district attorney's office, public defender's office, and that translates into, you know, less manpower, less investigators, less experts.

A lot of time the public defenders have to resort to asking the judge to allocate discretionary funding for experts and a lot of times those requests are denied because the judges are trying to keep the cost of trials down. So now you're 17, I think, what? I am. I'm 17 at the trial and you know, I'm convicted and I'm sentenced. And I assume murder rate stuff and you're being tried as adult, you're going to big boy prison.

Correct. Exactly right. Elmira Crest facility. You had to have been terrified. I was. And you're not a violent person. And I'm not a violent person. And you You had to have been terrified. I was. And you're not a violent person. And I'm not a violent person. And you're going to the most violent place on earth.

That's right. What was the place? Elmira Correctional Facility. It was three or four stabbings or cuttings every day. There was a lot of violence that didn't involve weapons and there was gang activity. And so collectively there was a general environment of violence and adrenaline that permeated the air. I have a target on my back so I'm worried that people are going to discover that I've incarcerated for rape along with the murder because there's a vigilante mentality towards people convicted of sex offenses.

So yes, I really was scared. And my understanding is there's a hierarchy in jail. Yeah. But if you've heard a child or rape You're a target current. That's you had both. Yeah, right Yeah, so how did you manage in jail? Well, it was I mean you learn certain survival tactics and you know I would study people for a couple of months before I even said hello and if something is happening you put your back to The wall and you know would study people for a couple of months before I even said, Hello, and if something is happening, you put your back to

the wall and, you know, just be quiet when you're in your cell and try not to draw attention. So you can, you know, and people that are engaged in, you know, gambling or other high risk activities, try to stay far away from them. And even with that, that's just things to minimize. But even with that, I mean, they were in the course of my 16 years there were maybe Maybe like six to eight times. I was I was beat up on time. I almost lost my life I got hit on the side of my head with ten pound weight plates Repeatedly why they thought I was a rapist

So you'd just be minding your own business they just beat the hell out of you because of what your charge was So you'd just be minding your own business. They just beat the hell out of you because of what your charge was. Yeah. Yes. That could happen at any point. And if your time is there any way a guy like you could find safety in jail? Is there, could you get, go to a work? I mean, I don't know, but I mean, is there any way? I mean, just the tactics that I mentioned to you when you get older and you get a little

bit hardened, and as I got into my mid-20s, I mean, here and there I wouldn't do that bad in the fight. Yeah, that's kind of pretty much it. I mean, I do think that there were some of the a few older prisoners that you know helped me to avoid certain Leave the kid alone or whatever, you know, they had some street cat cred themselves being you know Someone that was an old-timer. So I did get a lot would they that why would they do that for you? I Think that I mean I think that that was almost like,

I mean, there's a certain amount of gratification that's involved with putting someone under your wing. Like you feel like you're doing something good, I guess, or to the extent that there's any type of fatherly instinct there. You know, this could have been my kid or, you know, they had some, I mean, those are my theories on it. I mean, it wasn't like they ever asked me for anything.

They weren't trying to get any sexual favors from me. They weren't asking for money or they weren't extorting me. It wasn't any of those things. Was there a single moment you weren't terrified on Joe? No. No, there wasn't. What does that do to a psyche? It makes you hyper vigilant.

Do you think it's different for a person that knows he's guilty versus a person that knows he's innocent? Thousand percent. Because somebody, like I met a lot of people that were guilty and in conversation with them they would say, look, I did this to myself, I did what I did, I got caught, I have to pay for that. So I'm not gonna cry about it, I'm just gonna make the best of it that I can

and try to go home as quickly as I can. I could never get to that place because I knew that I was innocent and I didn't know how long this was gonna go on for. I mean, in a way, I kind of lived from appeal to appeal in my mind. You know, I ignored. That was only hope you had.

Right, I ignored the fact that I had a 15 life sentence. I just thought, look, I just have to hold on for a year or two, at which point the next appeal is gonna be decided, which I'm confident I'm gonna win and go home because I'm innocent and I believe in the system. And you're never gonna get parole because part of the thing about parole is showing that you have serious remorse

for a crime you committed and you're maintaining your innocence, so the parole board is looking at you like, well, this guy learned his lessons in the back. Correct. I bet, I mean, I'm guessing. No, no, no, that's true. You're exactly right.

I don't wanna jump too far ahead, but I got denied parole for that very reason. Because, so the thing is, if you are innocent and in prison, if you want parole, you may have to cop a second time to something you haven't done just to get your freedom. Yeah, that's true.

That's the irony of ironies. I agree. So you're in prison. And how's the, I know you're appealing. Of course. So how does that, who go, take me through that process? Sure, so I have a public defender, but not the same person and not from the same agency.

Thank God. Right. Exactly. This lawyer actually did a great job for me. So she raised 10 issues. She raised the issue by innocence. That took the form of arguing that there was legally insufficient evidence, that the prosecution hadn't proven guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and that the verdict was against the weight of the evidence, all of that centering around the DNA. My Fifth Amendment rights being violated was argued by the manner in which I had been questioned. My right to confrontation, Sixth Amendment, was argued because of the judge allowing the

polygraphist to give his opinion while banning my lawyer from cross-examining him on his methods. The evidence being thrown out was raised. The judge being biased against me was raised. In total, 10 issues of law were raised. The appellate division, they wrote that I was not in custody, that I was free to come and go as I wanted, and therefore they ruled the statements were admissible. But you weren't. You were driven there by cops, and your parents weren't around. How were you free to come and go?

I completely agree with you. They wrote that there was overwhelming evidence of guilt, which is kind of a head scratcher. They have this confession obtained under questionable circumstances. And no matching DNA. And no matching DNA. So I don't understand that.

And you recanted your confession. Right, right. So those two rulings, and then they rejected my argument on the polygraph. They said, well, because I put the statements into question, that that was not a reversible error. Then they knocked out the rest of my arguments in one sentence.

They wrote that they looked at my remaining contentions and found them to either be without merit or else not preserved for review. And they ruled against me five, nothing on that. And it was all downhill from there. The re-argument motion was denied in one word, denied. The Court of Appeals, New York's highest court, you have to get permission from them

before they'll agree to allow you to appeal to them. So they declined to give me permission. I lost in federal court because my attorney was given the wrong information by the court clerk, which resulted in my habeas corpus petition arriving four days late, which the then Westchester District Attorney, Jeanine Pirro, her, she, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Who? Jeanine Pirro. The Fox news woman. Yes.

You went in front of her. No, she was just, she was the district attorney. So she wasn't the DA when I was convicted, but she took office before my first appeal. So she was the one who kept the ball rolling against me. She's the one that fought seven appeals. She's the one that repeatedly blocked me from getting further DNA testing. She's the one that got the federal court to rule

that I was, my being late four days by the court clerks misinformation. I'm laughing because I think the show is called Justice with Judy or something like that. Yeah, Justice with Janine Pirro, yeah. Janine, yeah. Right. Holy smokes.

So the court ruled that I was late, so I lost that way. Now the case is no longer about my issues. It's only about whether or not the federal court ruling that I was late, whether that ruling was correct or not. So I appeal that to the federal court of appeals. I got permission to appeal to them. And my lawyer argued, I have a different lawyer now, my lawyer argued that this was not a lateness caused by me or my attorney, but by the court clerk, that upholding a ruling

like that would cause a miscarriage of justice to continue. And lastly, that overturn the procedure or ruling would open the door for more sophisticated DNA. So once again, Pirro's office opposed and the Federal Court of Appeals, which included future US Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, they upheld the court's ruling. Hold it, time out. Now it goes to the federal court and... I get time barred.

And Sonia... Sotomayor. Yeah, who is now on the United States Supreme Court. Right. Her office denied this too. Yes. Okay, you know what I find interesting? You've got ultra right and ultra left and they're both arriving same conclusion

to not give you a chance. Right? It's not a political thing. It's just a systematic quagmire of crap thing. Right. That is unbelievable to me. And then my lawyer moved to reargue it in front of Sotomayor and her colleague, and she denied the re-argument motion. So she wouldn't even hear it. Right.

We asked, look, you got the decision wrong because of XYZ. So we're not only asking you to reconsider it, but we were requesting that all the judges on the circuit hear the issue and vote. And they said, no, that's not necessary. We're just upholding the decision we already made. I gotta believe, and there's a lot of legal stuff here, and I mean, you know, we've all watched Law & Order, so we think we know what we know, but it means we don't know anything unless we're attorneys. Just layman's terms, why wouldn't they hear it? And even taking yourself out of it, which has got to be very difficult. But why wouldn't you hear that? Is it because you get so many thousands of appeals, you can only hear so many and it's a time thing?

I mean, why wouldn't you hear that? Why would she not hear it? Well, there's two tensions in the law which played themselves out there. So one of them is what I'll call proceduralism versus substance of justice. Proceduralism is the court's obsession at, well, did we get the form right, not the actual decision?

So- Who gives a crap about a form when you're talking about a person's life? And by the way, there may be somebody out there who actually did kill and rape somebody that could be doing it somebody else too. If we did get it wrong, we need to go back and do some police work.

I mean, I don't get, it didn't make any sense to me. Completely agree. And the other thing is what I'll call finality of conviction versus accuracy. In other words, the competing ideas, on one hand, look, you had your day in court, you lost, you know, how many times are we going to keep going through?

Is ever enough enough? That idea versus, you know, accuracy. Who cares about a final conclusion if your final conclusion is in error? So those two things, I think, play a big part in wrongful convictions being upheld and it played a role in my losing in federal court twice. And then I went to the US Supreme Court and they declined to grant me permission and so now my appeals are over. That's seven appeals I've lost.

I'm 11 years in. The only way back in the court now. So now you're 28? Yeah, that's right. You've had your liberty stripped from you For 11 years. Yes because you were a kid from a poor mother In an apartment who got railroaded and couldn't defend yourself

Are you at this point now out of the 16 year old fear factor and into just being angry as hell? No, I wouldn't describe myself as angry. I was still fearful. Like, you know, what the hell is going to happen to me now? Am I ever going to get out of here? So the only way... Are you crying yourself to sleep at night? Yeah, on some nights I am, sure. Now I have to hide it and make sure that none of the other prisoners hear that though. I get it weakness sure exactly Boy, I wish everybody That was listening could have seen his face. He's been so matter of fact until just then because then you just raise your eyebrows at me and look down at me like don't cry in prison right like a father would say to a child

like you fight you cry in prison you're gonna pay for that correct the look you just gave yeah you're right that's a scary look yeah that's a look of that'll get you killed or raped yourself. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would agree. We'll be right back. I'm Hannah Storm and my podcast, NBA DNA with Hannah Storm, digs deep into the history of professional basketball, along with my own, as one of the first female sportscasters.

Now let's get you up to speed on what else happened around the NBA today. We talked to all sorts of people I interacted with, from Dr. J to Charles Barkley, and recap iconic moments. Yes, he's got it. Here he comes. Way rock the baby to sleep and slam dunk. As well as some of the wild stories behind the scenes.

We were like, what? What are we in for? The scoreboard crashes before we even tip a game off. Today, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant. Players are multi-millionaires and cultural icons. Igadala to Curry, back to Igadala, up for the layup. Oh, blocked by James. LeBron James. And these stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Listen to NBA DNA with Hannah Storm on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Johnny B. Goode, and I'm the host of the new podcast Creating a Con, the story of

VidCon. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Tripani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected 30 million dollars. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratec, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world until it didn't. They came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out.

You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to season nine of Next Question with me, Katie Hurick. It is 2024 and we're going to get through this together, folks.

My campaign promise to all of you here on Next Question is going to be a good time the whole time. We hope. I have some big news to share with you on our season premiere featuring Kris Jenner, who's got some words of wisdom for me on being a good grandmother or in her case, a good lovey. You know, you start thinking of what you want your grandmother name to be. Like, are they going to call me grandma like I call my grandmother? So I got to choose my name, which is now Levy.

I'll also be joined by Hillary Clinton, Renee Flemming, Liz Cheney, to name a few. So come on in and take a break from the incessant negativity for a weekly dose of fascinating conversations. Some of them, I promise, will actually put you in a good mood. I loved it. Your energy and joy. I'm squeezing every minute I can for you out of this season of Next Question. Last question, I promise.

You have to go. I have to go. But it's been so fun. And I can't wait for you to hear it. Listen to Next Question with me, Katie Couric, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So the only way back in a court is if you can find some new evidence, or if the court makes a ruling and applies it to old cases.

So I don't have any money. My family has no money to hire a lawyer or an investigator and obviously from behind bars I wasn't going to be doing any re-investigating myself Hence a letter writing campaign for four years. I wrote large firms. I wrote nonprofits I wrote faith-based organizations if I could come up with a Line of reasoning or action that somebody could take, which could set in motion a chain of events that culminated into my getting the legal representation I needed, then I wrote letters.

I wrote an uncountable amount of letters for four years, never getting responses other than the occasional no. And then I went to- People were kind enough to write you back to say no. And then I went to... People were kind enough to write you back to say no? Most of the time, no. But a few people that... A few places that did write me back and say, no, a few of those were law firms. And they said they didn't have time to take my case for free,

but they made sure that I knew exactly how much money they wanted. Should I be able to scrape it together. Then I went to the parole board where, as we've went over, I maintain my innocence and their decision said that you have a great education record, you have a good disciplinary record, you got some letters of support,

including from a prison employee, but nonetheless you've been found guilty of a brutal and senseless crime, and so to release you would be to lessen its seriousness, and they ordered me to appear in front of them two years later, and at that point, it seemed kind of certain that I was gonna die in prison for a crime I didn't commit. Did you ever think, I'm going to cop to this to get out of here?

No. No, I considered that at two junctures. I considered that when the prison authorities were pressuring me to take and complete the sex offender training program, which they said, look, the parole board is going to want to see that you took a program that addresses your crime. That would be the sex offender training program. But the problem with completing that was there was a guilt admission requirement tied to

a kind of similar to like an AA, where if you don't admit you have a problem, you can't begin to. And so they wanted you to admit you were guilty to the instructor, to the other prisoners. They wanted a description from beginning to end. They wanted it all in writing. And so failure to complete any element of that would result in being removed from the program

and deemed to have refused to complete. So I did consider briefly to do that, but I decided not to do that because, first of all, a coerced false confession was how I got there in the first place. So I wasn't about to repeat that. It's kind of like deja vu all over again. Correct. So I went the other way this time. But the thing is, you're literally willing to spend the rest of your life in jail proclaiming your own innocence. Yes. What a catch-22. I mean what do you do? You have no help. Right. So

I came up with this plan in my head which I attempted to carry out at the parole board. So I knew they were in the habit of rubber-stamp denying applications of anyone applying for parole that was convicted of a violent crime. So I thought, look, I'm going to raise the issue of my innocence. I'm going to cite the DNA. But you know, they didn't want to hear that. You know, I did briefly consider, you know, to express remorse and take responsibility.

I did briefly consider that at the board, but in the end I decided not to do that. And part of that was not just, it was the same line of reasoning that I had used in deciding not to take the sex offender training program. Plus, I already decided this before on the sex offender training program to not take it. So I just held to my ground.

Along the way Yeah Absent the judges and the problem, but along the way. Hmm Did you win some believers Yeah, I did that there were there. Yes, I did there were there were I didn't general I didn't talk about my case because you I wouldn't want to attract attention Right, but there were a couple of people I broke that rule with so they believe me about my case because I wouldn't want to attract attention. But there were a couple of people I broke that rule with, so they believe me. I had one of my counselors believe me.

Really believed you? Not pacifying you, but really believed you. I think that she did. She would periodically ask me, how are my legal efforts going? She let me make a few phone calls. He technically wasn't supposed to let me make a few phone calls he you know technically wasn't supposed to let me do so I mean to the small extent she could do anything so those people but most importantly I continued the letter

writing campaign even you know after I was denied parole and I ended up with the ultimate believer at that point so one of the letters that I wrote, which was in care of a publishing, I wrote a book author in care of a publishing company, and the publishing company, instead of forwarding it to the book author, sent it to Claudia Whitman, who's an investigator. And when I sent her, she wrote me,

and when I sent her the DNA test results, she instantly believed in me, because she had never heard of a case where the DNA excluded somebody, and yet a conviction took place. So she tried to get people to take my case, she gave me ideas, and one of her ideas was the winning one. She suggested that I write The Innocence Project again,

and I told her, well, I've written them before when they got started back in 92, 93. And she said, yeah, but given the DNA data bank has been created, the prior denial is irrelevant so just write them. So I did. I filled out their application. I forgot about it. I looked for other ways to get representation, none of which worked. Simultaneous to that, she was lobbying them from outside the organization. She got other respected legal entities to lobby them to take my case.

And then I got lucky that one of the intake workers, Maggie Taylor, when the lawyers didn't want to take my case, she re-presented it again. And when they didn't want to take it a second time she represented it a third time. Her winning idea which was one that I suggested to her was what about the DNA data bank. So I got their representation that was the first of three keys. Second key was Piero left office and her successor was not as dug in and she was willing to give me the test. As I hear through the grapevine, they both hated each other and Pira was in the middle of running for attorney general. So I think her successor let me get the testing hoping that I'd be exonerated

so as to damage her run for attorney general. So it was political. It was, but look, you know what? Who cares for you? You'll take it. I'll take it. So that was two of three keys, and the third key was they took the crime scene DNA evidence which didn't match me, and put it in the DNA data bank,

and it matched. And it hit. It hit, it matched the actual perpetrator whose DNA was in that data bank because, left free while I was doing time for his crime, he killed a second victim just three and a half years later who was a school teacher and had two children. So my-

Where? In Peekskill. The same city? Yes. He had, he'd lived amongst everybody? Yes. Yes, he did. The very thing we talked about happening happened, which is by railroading you, they ignored

that there was a murder on the loose, and he did it again. Oh my goodness. So on September 20th, 2006, the conviction was overturned. I was released. I went back to court November 2nd, 2006, at which point all the charges were dismissed against me on actual innocence grounds and he was subsequently arrested and convicted of the crime. Did he admit it? He did. Confronted with the DNA, he admitted that he was the person that did it. Why did he kill this 15-year-old kid all these years ago?

Well, there's a video of him confessing to it on YouTube and in that video he says that he was in the park. So there's Hillcrest condominiums and then there's Hillcrest a school and then there's like a thick woods with a macadam path in it. And she was there to take pictures in connection with her photography class. The teacher had assigned a male student to a Kabaddi system to go with her. The male student played hooky on the assignment. So she goes from the high school to her home with her sister. Her sister goes to the restroom, comes out, and Angela's not

there. She goes with her, went with her camera on her own to the park. And while taking pictures on that McAdam path, she had the misfortune of coming across Cunningham, even Cunningham, who was there in the park and who was high. And he attacked, murdered and raped her. Meanwhile, you're playing wiffle ball. Right. And end up doing 16 years from May 17 to 32. Wow, Jeff. Folks, there's redemption coming.

I promise. We'll be right back. I'm Hannah Storm and my podcast, NBA DNA with Hannah Storm digs deep into the history of professional basketball, along with my own as one of the first female sportscasters. Now let's get you up to speed on what else happened around the NBA today. We talked to all sorts of people I interacted with, from Dr. J to Charles Barkley, and recap iconic moments. Yes, he's got it. Here he comes. Way rock the baby to sleep and slam dunk.

As well as some of the wild stories behind the scenes. We were like, what? What are we in for? The scoreboard crashes before we even tip a game off. Today, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant. Players are multimillionaires and cultural icons. Ygadala to Curry, back to Ygadala, up for the layup. Oh, blocked by James.

LeBron James. And these stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Listen to NBA DNA with Hannah Stor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Johnny B. Good, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of VidCon. Over this nine part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani.

I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratec, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world until it didn't.

They came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? know will objectively cause more harm in the world. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I never thought I'd take my three young kids to Sicily to solve a century-old mystery. But that's what I'm doing in my new podcast, The Sicilian Inheritance.

Join us as we travel thousands of miles on the beautiful and crazy island of Sicily, as I trace my roots back through a mystery for the ages and untangle clues within my family's origin story, which is morphed like a game of telephone through the generations. Was our family matriarch killed in a land deal gone wrong? Or was it by the Sicilian mafia? A lover's quarrel? Or was she, as my father believed, a witch? Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something I learned in reading about your story, the numbers say that there are probably 120,000 people wrongfully convicted in the United States today. Right.

Who comes up with that number? Well, there's, it's an estimation. There's a Wayne State University study that estimates 10,000 people are wrongfully convicted each year. So when you're listening to Jeff's story, before we go on to the good that has come out of all of this, you know, if you're hearing it, you've got to be thinking, oh my gosh, this is terrible. Not the way our society is supposed to work.

This is not the way our justice system is supposed to work. You need to make it a little more personal. Jeff could be your son, your nephew, your uncle, your brother. It could be you. It could be your daughter. If it can happen to Jeff and it can happen to the 120,000 people that are buried in our prison system in the United States that are in fact innocent. And it happens all the time that we see a news report of somebody who was wrongfully convicted by some overzealous cops who were more worried about the win than the justice.

We see it all the time and sure we shake our heads and say it's bad, but we need to put a face on it. We live in this world and we're held accountable by the same justice system and this very thing could happen to any of us or any of our loved ones. And that needs to be, I think, starkly pointed out that we need to care about this story, not because we get emotionally connected to the long explanation and the long-form explanation of the story which is unbelievably gut-wrenching and interesting, but because it's the world we live in and it could happen to us. Are you traumatized from it?

Sure, of course. I mean, I went for about six years. I went four times a week with mental health professionals and helping them get over the trauma of that and difficulties in reintegrating and managing life. I'll say now having been home for 18 years, I mean, I feel like the symptoms are much more controlled. I won't say that there's no leftover, but it's much more minimized than before. There was also the social stigma. You were in prison for 16 years, wrongfully, but you were there for 16 years.

So how much of that rubbed off on you? Was it safe to be alone someplace with you? My extended family, which, you know, overwhelming majority of whom never came to see me, the few that did would come disappear for three years, come disappear for three years. My mother was a consistent visitor, but then in the last six years, I was lucky if I saw her once every six months. My brother came three times in 16 years, not at all in the last decade. My grandmother passed away six years in.

So my point in giving all those details is for most intents and purposes, I did the time by myself. So my extended family became like strangers to me. So that was awkward when I'd meet up with them. Technology had passed me by, cell phone phone GPS, internet hadn't been created, culture was different. Cities looked just familiar enough to feel like I was in a parallel world, one place that I didn't belong in. I was always passed over for gainful employment. I lacked stability of housing at one point a couple of weeks

away from a homeless shelter. So it was a very difficult initial five years of freedom. I think it was particularly difficult for me because I had been in prison from 17 to 32, not like 25 to 40 or 30 to 45. So I had never lived alone. I had never went shopping. I hadn't had a driver's license. You never got to be an adult. You never got to be an adult. I never got to be an adult.

So I think the transition was particularly difficult. I mean, I remember the Dean of Mercy College, which gave me a scholarship to finish the bachelor's degree because I had gotten the GED and associates another year towards the bachelor's while in prison at the time that funding was cut. So Mercy College gave me a scholarship to finish the bachelor's.

And one time the dean, who was the point person on campus, took me shopping. And I remember in terms of like the cleaning supplies and even the food items, I was so, I so didn't know how to shop that I would save the containers and bring them with me back to the supermarket when I would go shopping and just to buy the same things

all over again. Wow. Your life was taken from you. Yeah, I missed births, deaths, weddings, rites of passage, finishing my education at a normal age. I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to a high school prom. I wasn't well into a career,

and I certainly wasn't married or have a family. So those are all the concrete things that came with the loss. How'd you make it through it? While I was in prison, so belief in God was one thing. I mentioned I was just, I was doing like maybe a year or two to the next appeal, I used to go to the law library and learn the law and that would give me a sense of comfort.

I would collect articles about other people who were exonerated and use that as motivation and also study like what route did they take and who helped them. You develop a little bit of a routine. I engaged in an elaborate delusion. When I would play basketball or ping pong or chess, I would pretend like I was a professional player but it wasn't kids fooling around in a playground.

This was that I needed to leave the prison for a couple hours and that was my way of doing that. And I would cut out pictures of nature scenes and hang them on the cell wall so I could look at it and travel there mentally. There was another prisoner there named Frank Sterling that once every six weeks we would get together in the yard and half the conversation would be about trying to continue on morale wise and the second would be like a brainstorm session. And Frank was eventually cleared a couple

years after me by DNA also so I wasn't naively believing that another person was innocent just because I was. And last thing was that I placed an ad in a newspaper and this stranger wrote me. I was just desperate for outside contact and so this stranger wrote me and became my pen pal and I was literally asking him, you know, do you think I should quit? Do you think I should just give up? Should I just commit suicide? I'm never going to get out of here. So I felt like he like showed up in the nick of time.

Wow. I'm going to read your words. The actual percentage of people who are rockfully convicted, considering that the national registry of exonerated documents, wrongful convictions is The actual percentage of people who are wrongfully convicted, considering that the National Registry of Exonerated Documents Wrongful Convictions has documented from 1989 forward more than 1,600 wrongful convictions, and that a Wayne State University study estimates 10,000 new people wrongfully convicted each year. And there's articles that say as many as 120,000 people wrongfully convicted.

And you said, I would say the wrongful conviction percentage is between 15 and 20%. You're saying between one of six to one of five people sitting in jail today should not be in jail for the crime that they've been put in jail for Yeah, if that's what 15 to 20 percent works out and I want to point out that at the time I said that The numbers have moved on the registry the the registry is now documented more than 3,000 people who have been exonerated since the time That I said that so my point is that the flow of anecdotal evidence seems to be flowing my way on that. That is phenomenal to me. That is a huge number of people that, one, are wrongfully convicted. That's a tragedy. But when hearing the reality of you getting out of prison, not only was your life stripped from you when you were in prison, but then catching up on life, you also have life strip

for you when you're out of prison. And wow. So you decided, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm not going to cry. Not going to whine about it. I'm going to tell my story because people need to hear it, but I'm going to do something about it, which I think I mean, I, nobody could blame you for being jaded, angry at the world, pissed off and screw everybody.

System screwed me, screw them. I mean, I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way, but instead for some reason, you do just the opposite. You don't want to be a victim of it. You want to rise above it and you started your organization, which is the redemptive part of the story. Tell me about the foundation. Sure.

So, while I was having that difficulty the first five years, I was simultaneously doing advocacy work as an individual advocate. I was speaking, I became a columnist for a weekly paper. I was trading privacy for awareness by doing media interviews and I was meeting with elected officials. I got the scholarship from Mercy College. I finished the bachelor's. Didn't get into law school, decided to go to grad school. I got a master's degree because I figured having the extra credential would make me a better advocate. My thesis is written on wrongful conviction,

cause and reform. So I graduated from John Jay. Five years after my release, I was finally financially compensated and I got to the point where, so up until that point. Let's be honest. Yes. I mean, let's be clear about what, you sued the damn city or county.

Yes, I did, all of that. So I brought a lawsuit. Hey listen, I really am not one of these litigious guys, but in this this case we're not gonna talk about how much you want that's your personal business But I hope you won a boatload I did I got compensated by the state and I brought a civil rights lawsuit And I didn't let anyone get away that had a hand in it from from good peace kill to the public defenders to the county And and to the the punting county who's who supplied the polygraphists, to the Putnam County who supplied the polygraphists. So everybody settled with me except the polygraphist.

I went to trial with him and I won. Good for you. Thank you. So I took a million and a half dollars from that and I started the Jeffrey Deskovek Foundation for Justice. As an individual- Now you could have taken the money and gone off and said screw everybody.

Yes. But now you decide, I going to take some of this. I'm going to start a foundation because people who got screwed like me, I want to help. Yes, because as an individual advocate, I was only able to nibble on the edges of helping the free people, meaning I could write about somebody's case, which I did while the injustice was still afoot. I could show up to the courtroom for the visual impact of the judges. I could try to bring the media. I could help to pack the courtroom. But that's just kind of nibbling on the edges. I wanted to be more directly involved and hence starting the foundation, named after me, intending that to be a legacy that far

survives me. And to this point've I've gotten 14 people home We hold it but you you committed to 1.5 million of your own dollars. Yes of my own dollars. Yes Keep going It's phenomenal. I also beyond helping people what in the same position. I was once and I wanted to Help prevent what happened to me from happening to others, hence the policy side. So to date, we've helped pass six laws. And at some point, I became not satisfied with sitting in the front row of the courtroom.

I wanted to sit at the defense table. I wanted to represent some of the clients. I wanted to make some of the courtroom. I wanted to sit at the defense table. I wanted to represent some of the clients. I wanted to make some of the arguments. And so I went to law school and I graduated from Pace Law School. And as we sit here, you know, I've been an attorney for three years and I have had my first success. A year ago, I was co-counsel, we helped free Andre Brown after 23 years of prison, his conviction was overturned. When you look in the mirror, how old are you now? 50. So I've been home for 18 years.

Who at 45 graduates law school? That's true. That's true. That's true. You're right. But look, here's the deal. I bet your professors were, I mean, the professors had to have known your story. No, it was a big media thing. Of course they did.

They had to have loved you. They did. In law school. They did love me. You are walking case study. It's very true. And I was big on class participation and they would start asking me questions and sometimes call me up to help teach the class on certain topics.

So yeah, and plus I facilitated a lot of wrongful conviction events on campus. So yes, they all knew who I was and I, you know, shared and educated, you know, as much as I could. We'll be right back. I'm Hannah storm and my podcast, NBA DNA with Hannah storm digs deep into the history of professional basketball, along with my own, as one of the first female sportscasters. Now let's get you up to speed on what else happened around the NBA today. We talked to all sorts of people I interacted with,

from Dr. J to Charles Barkley, and recap iconic moments. Yes, he's got it. Here he comes. Way rock the baby to sleep and slam dunk. As well as some of the wild stories behind the scenes. We were like, what? What are we in for? The scoreboard crashes before we even tip a game off. Today, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant.

Players are multimillionaires and cultural icons. Igadala to Curry, back to Igadala, up for the layup. Oh, blocked by James. LeBron James. And these stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Listen to NBA DNA with Hannah Storm on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Johnny B. Goode, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story

of VidCon. Over this nine part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Tripani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million.

There were headlines about it. His company, Centratec, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was gonna change the world until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson.

How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. MTV's official challenge podcast is back for another season. And guess what? So are we. Just in case you forgot, I'm Tori Deal. I'm a six-time finalist and a Challenge champion.

And I'm Anissa Ferrer and I've been gracing your screens for the last two decades. I am a veteran challenger and Challenge All-Star. And speaking of All-Stars, All-Stars 4 is finally here. I'm gonna be honest. I literally thought this day was never going to come. Well, the Challenge gods have answered our prayers and we're going to be right here along with you fans

covering every episode on the podcast. And this season takes it to a whole new level. Old school legends, modern power players, redemption seekers, and ex-lovers are all competing in Cape Town, South Africa for the prize of $300,000. Anyone can win, relationships matter, and only one all-star will claim the title of Challenge Champion.

Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, you said the first thing you did was you sat on the... Who was the gentleman? Andre Brown. I was brought in as co-counsel. Tell me his story. Yeah. So, Andre did 23 years in prison for a double attempted murder. His trial attorney did not introduce medical evidence

that showed that Andre had been shot in an unrelated incident a year before that. So he could not have descended the subway in the Bronx, ran four or five blocks, gunned down one person, and then turn and ran another four or five blocks after somebody else and gun them down too. So his lawyer's never, his lawyer... He was physically unable. He was physically unable but his lawyer never presented that so our case

was that and then we found an alternative suspect who was the spinning image of him. That person was identified by two other witnesses as having committed the crime, and it was all corroborated by ballistics evidence. Wow. 23 years this man lost. 23 years he lost, and the decision overturning his conviction came two weeks into December, so he was able to spend Christmas

with his wife, son, and daughter. Andrew Krivak. Yes. Am I saying that right? You are, Andrew Krivak, yes. So that case, so Andy was exonerated. He did 23 and a half years in prison. He did three years on house arrest with an ankle monitor.

The same polygraphist who did what he did to me did the same thing to Andy. So he was a foundation client. We screened the case, we brought lawyers in, we got his conviction overturned, I brought in Oscar Michelin to represent him at the retrial and it was another co-counsel that joined Oscar. I wasn't technically allowed to represent him

because my case was how we were going to impeach this polygraphist. A conflict of interest there. Right, right, right. But I did everything short of that. I was knee deep in everything and he was exonerated also. William Hawley? Hawley.

Yes. So, William Hawley, rest in peace, because he died after six years of being home. He did eight years and four months on an arson case that actually was an electrical fire. And we got the Putnam County District Attorney to agree with us that he was innocent. And William Lopez?

William Lopez. Bill, I miss him the most, man. So Bill did 23 and a half years. Is he passed? He did, he passed after a year and a half of being home. So he was in for 23 and a half years on a shotgun murder. That started out as a two witness case and one of the witnesses

could not identify him in court. So now it's a one witness case. This one witness had been up for 24 hours prior to the shotgun murder having done 12 vials of crack and she claimed that she was testifying because it was the right thing to do. Nothing that there was no benefit. Hold it. She did 12 vials of crack but wanted to do the right thing to do. Nothing that there was no benefit. But she miraculously. She did 12 vows of crack but wanted to do the right thing. Right. Well. But what gets a little bit better,

you know, the day after he was found guilty, she miraculously was let out of the county jail where she had her own case. Her drug case problem. Yeah, it was a drug case, yes. And then on top of that, Bill's. But she was doing the right thing. So she says.

Yeah, well, we can all laugh, we know she wasn't. But also Bill's trial lawyer talked him out of presenting his two alibi witnesses. So he had a pre-existing legal team that had been with him for a decade before we got involved. So it's kind of like a building was built but was missing a section. So we did some investigative work including finding a witness that had been deported into the Dominican Republic.

And so his conviction was overturned and we helped him reintegrate and he passed after a year and a half. I like to tell myself, I like to think that that year and a half was the best year and a half of his life, but at least he died free unless he died knowing that his name was cleared. One more thing on Bill, he went away, his daughter, 14 fathers out there, his daughter was a year and a half when he went away, he came back, she was 25. And they were never really able to reconnect, yeah. You got emotional when you said you miss him the most.

Right, I did. Why, why, what about him? So we became really close friends when he was released. So sometimes he would show up at my house unannounced and I knock on the door and I open the door and Bill what are you doing here? And he walks right past me, walks in, he's got a suitcase in tow wheeling it

and he says I'm staying for the weekend. Well all right Bill, you know where your bedroom's at. You know? So, yeah, so he used to come, that was an example of how close we were, and I went to a lot of firsts with him. You know, we went to Playland first, this first experience with that.

We did a lot of things together. We socialized a lot together. We played some games of chess together and we really kind of commiserated together. He was the first person that the foundation exonerated. So I think that he meant the most to me sentimentally. All these cases are important. They're all people I'll never forget.

But I feel like being his being the first and then the depth of our friendship was much deeper than with any of the other people. I remember, I wanna digress for a half second, I remember when we got him out, I had the staff there, different people than what are involved now, and I remember I kinda took some flack from them and they said, you have to maintain these boundaries,

you have to maintain these lines, this is your client, this isn't your friend. And as Bill said, look man, I don't want to be a client, I just want to be a friend. You guys have meant what you've meant, you do what you do, you know, but I like the friendship. And, you know, I listen to him rather than them and I'm glad there's this, you know, when it comes to pushing for fighting wrongful conviction,

you know, I kind of, I only know one way, which is forward. And there's never an off button. So I remember probably one of my worst successes in that area, which tie into Bill, is, we can laugh at craziness in a minute, okay? I let the media come into my house on Christmas Eve, because it was his first Christmas home, and it was also my first Christmas since purchasing a house.

Wow. And I'm glad I did. It's a wonderful clip. I play it every now and then, because he's gone, you see him talking alive and everything and that was his first and only Christmas as it unfortunately turned out to be. first and only Christmas as it as it unfortunately turned out to be.

I mean, on the one hand, the 23 or however many years he spent. 23 and as he might say, don't forget the half. Yeah, I guarantee he felt that half. Right. Of course. We, uh, Mark Douglas. Yes. So Mark's case is definitely a special one as well because you know marks case was a that was another peak skill case.

No kidding. Yeah, that was another that was another peak skill case. Yes. That police department has some cleaning up to do. I would agree with you on that, yes. So we have 13 active cases we're working on now. I'm involved in nine of them, mostly as co-counsel supporting the lead attorney, but a few where I'm the lead. I got the more experienced guy there for the experience, but I wanted the experience of

being the lead. And so those are nine to the 13. The other four I just generally get an update from. And you know, we're trying to free as many people as we can. We're doing policy work with the coalition group that could happen to you in New York, Pennsylvania, and California So that's that's what my life is about the innocence project. Mm-hmm Who without you wouldn't be here with me today, correct?

But one of their things is there You if I understand it correctly They they specifically deal in reversals based solely on DNA. Correct. Yes. Which is why I have my entity. What do you do? Which is why, yeah, we do both DNA and non-DNA.

So there's... I've got to believe the non-DNA is really hard to get done. It is, and it's more labor intensive. At the same time, there's four times as many non-DNA exonerations as there are DNA exonerations. Is that right? Yes. So the cases are winnable. And so far, none of the people that we've helped free, their cases haven't involved DNA. We'll be right back.

We'll be right back. female sportscasters. Now let's get you up to speed on what else happened around the NBA today. We talked to all sorts of people I interacted with, from Dr. J to Charles Barkley, and recap iconic moments. Yes, he's got it. Here he comes. Way rock the baby to sleep and slam dunk. As well as some of the wild stories behind the scenes. We were like, what? What are we in for? The scoreboard crashes before we even tip a game off.

Today, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant. Players are multi-millionaires and cultural icons. And these stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Stories are about how we got here, both on and off the court. And what's next? Listen to NBA DNA with Hannah Stor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Johnny B. Good, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of VidCon. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life

and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it.

His company, Centratec, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson.

How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I never thought I'd take my three young kids to Sicily to solve a century-old mystery, but that's what I'm doing in my new podcast, The Sicilian Inheritance. Join us as we travel thousands of miles on the beautiful and crazy island of Sicily.

As I trace my roots back through a mystery for the ages and untangled clues within my family's origin story which is morphed like a game of telephone through the generations. Was our family matriarch killed in a land deal gone wrong? Or was it by the Sicilian mafia? A lover's quarrel? Or was she, as my father believed, a witch? Listen to The Sicilian Inheritance on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think better to let 100 guilty people people go free than have one innocent man locked up. But society exists provided that we have accountability to a standard of laws that make society livable

for all of us. Sure. There are bad people in the world. Yes, there are. I agree. And, you know, I don't want to get into the political argument at all, but I think Ned and the first reader, it's an army of normal folks, I think normal people would agree. There are bad people in the world that do really horrific things that need to go to jail.

Sure. And stay there. I would agree. For the betterment of society as a whole. I agree, but caveat, I think it's a lot less than what we think. I do believe in redemptive and second chance for most. I also agree. Okay.

I have interviewed too many people on this show who were bank robbers and now change people lives, who were arrested 17 times for drugs, and now figure out ways to have returning citizens have a life. So I also believe once you've paid your debt to society, it's paid, right? And if you don't wanna re-offend and you wanna try to make, we've gotta figure that out. All right, so, and the whole criminal justice thing You don't want to re-offend and you want to try to make...we've got to figure that out, all right?

And the whole criminal justice thing is a hot topic in culture and everything else. But specific to this conversation, how do you make sure you're not freeing and working on, again, devil's advocate. How do you make sure you're not working to free somebody who's claiming innocence but actually perpetrated a horrific crime against an innocent person? So firstly, we don't like, we know we're not naive. We know that there are people that claim innocence and apply for our help but are not giving you an opportunity. I'm throwing you a softball here to answer the question for all the people regardless of the whole story. There's people listen to us now it's like this has to be done. It's not fair to have.

But with all we're facing citing culture day. I don't want to let out a guilty person. I agree. So, tell us how you safeguard that. Make us feel good about that too. Sure. Okay. So, we ask ourselves two questions. Do we believe the innocence claim?

And the standard we use is, is it at least plausible, is it at least colorable based on something objective? And part of our answering that question is we look at what was actually used as evidence of guilt. So we know from the DNA exonerations what the red flags are, that an identification might be mistaken, that an informant could be lying, or that a confession could be false. So we're analyzing that. Do we believe in the innocence claim?

Secondly, do we see a potential route to victory? So we might be convinced of somebody's innocence, and that's what motivates us to take the case. That's you're not going to win based on that. The court will not allow you to re litigate the case. You have to come up with something new. So we look for something. We look for new evidence. Obviously, if there's some testable material, semen, saliva, blood, a clothing item that someone sweated in, that

would be how we would check the box in a DNA case. In an odd DNA case, we would look for an alternative suspect, similar crime in a nearby area. We would file a freedom of information law request and sometimes documents surfaced that were supposed to have been turned over before but weren't and that might either be evidence or it might furnish a new lead. If we think that somebody lied at a trial,

we would re-interview them. Sometimes a new witness bubbles to the surface, sometimes an actor in a case, like say a forensic scientist or a dirty cop whose misconduct has bubbled to the surface in some other case. You know, we look for all of those things. And so in terms of safeguarding, you know, the burden of proof is not on the government, it's on the defendant. Once you've been found guilty, now you have to prove you're innocent. So this legal standard for newly discovered evidence is,

would this new evidence probably have led to a different outcome? Or if you're gonna argue actual innocence, the legal standard is, have you proven by clear and convincing evidence? So coming to my point, if I have to find evidence of someone's innocence, where am I going to find that at if someone is actually guilty? That makes sense. So you go through all those machinations before you even say, I'm gonna work hard for this person.

Yes, we have our vetting and screening process. And then once that happens, our working hard is gonna get even more intense and we're gonna review the whole record. We're gonna go through all those steps and then we're gonna do the field investigation. And if we come up with nothing, then there's not going to be anything to bring the case back to court with. You know what I think is an interesting proof of the pudding?

Tell me. Given that the recidivism rate in the United States is somewhere around 87%, how many people that you have gotten free have quote, offended after their freedom? None. Knock on wood, none. Yeah, because you know what? Sooner or later, yeah, they were innocent. They're on wood. Not. Yeah. Because you know what?

So in a sooner, yeah, they were innocent. They're not criminals. Right. Right. That to me is the number that vets out your process, which is given that criminals reoffend 87% of the time and 0% of the people that you've gotten out of prison have offended, the math is on your side, my friend. Quick question.

Do you fear the cops? I used to. I bet. When you first got out of jail, you had to have been petrified when a cop came anywhere near you. I did. And you don't anymore? I feel a slight twinge, but overall no, but that small amount.

So the last, so up until a year ago, for eight years prior to that, like twice a year, I was brought into co-teach ethics to the police cadets. Holy crap, that's crazy. So I know that there are good cops out there, just like I know there's bad cops out there. One of the things that offends me the most. And I think is counterproductive is when a cop gets caught breaking the law, you know, or, or otherwise doing something unethical, you know, the attempt to minimize that is just a few bad apples. No, it's not because we wouldn't have the more than 3000 exonerations.

We wouldn't have the more than 3,000 exonerations. We wouldn't have police brutality wouldn't have Unjustifiable deadly police killings caught often caught on camera. So no, it's not a few bad apples It's a hell of a lot more than that at the same time, you know, it's not not all the cops are bad There's quite a bit of cops that are that are good, you know to take a Half foot into maybe a controversial thing is, you know, I, I think the world would be scary. I think the country would be scary if we were to defund the police and suddenly disband law enforcement and we're going to have a return to the wild wild west.

He even, I wouldn't advocate for that. So I do think the pendulum is a little bit extreme also, you know, and I think, I think some municipalities are reversing their thought process on that, that have actually tried to go too far that way. We got to have law and order and to have law and order. You have to have someone enforce it. Right. The problem is when you give that much power,

when you give enough power to a human being to take away somebody's liberty, we have to hold those people to account. And the vast majority of them, I think, get into law enforcement because they want to be a part of the solution. I do think the power can corrupt and I do think there are some bad apples out there because the facts and the numbers and the truth bears it out. But I really respect you especially given your particular and very unique circumstances to say let's not go too far with this. We can't defund the cops. We just got to hold them accountable.

Right. Exactly. And that's what this whole fight about wrongful convictions about. It's about justice. It's about accuracy. You know, I look at my life in a kaleidoscopic type of way, you know, meaning I think that I went through all that I went through in order to do the work that I'm doing. And so with that acceptance, you know, I feel like a inner peace within me. You know, I'm not

an angry person. I have several lines of reasoning on that. I mean, I want to enjoy my life as much as I can, and I don't think I could do that if I'm angry or bitter. I feel like I've lost so much already as is, much less to, in effect, lose the rest of my life by being angry. Perhaps less nobly, if I was to be angry or bitter, it's not like I would be impacting the people

that had a hand in what happened to me. I would really be the only loser in that scenario. There's a difference in forgiveness and a pardon. Right, I agree. Can you forgive those that wronged you? I don't know. But I'll share with you that I don't feel like I hate for them. I don't think about them.

That's the most powerful part. If you don't think about them, if they don't own your brain, they don't own you. Right. I'm just living my own life, focusing in on me and just trying to address this issue that, you know, I'm trying to address the bigger issue, you know, the problem of wrongful conviction and just do the best that I can in, you know, my life today and going forward. And I'm not really thinking about them anymore. I'm just trying to live my best life

and try to make the difference that I can make and make my suffering count for something. And that's it, I'm just focusing on those things. If somebody wants to support your foundation, because I imagine it takes a lot of money to do this investigative work and everything else. Yes. Or they'd like you to speak to their organization or maybe they have a family member that they know is wrongfully convicted and need help. How do they reach you?

So there's definitely the website, uh, WWW.descovic. D E S K O V I C. You better say that one more time. is definitely the website www.descovic.com. You better say that one more time. DES, yeah, www.descovic.org. That you can email me through the site. Also on social media so people can contact that way. We do have- What's your handle?

So on Facebook is Jeffrey Deskovic. I have a personal page, which is public. I have my public profile, and the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation is also a Facebook page on Instagram. It's just called Deskovic Foundation. I'm on LinkedIn as well. Just my name, Jeffrey Deskovic. So, the website and the social media, how people can reach me,

in terms of donating several methods, you can go to the website. You can go through PayPal. We have a crowdfunding page called on a Patreon website, which the theory on Patreon, which differentiates that from other websites, that's for people that are willing to make a recurring monthly donation.

What if 25,000 people were willing to sacrifice three to five dollars a month on a recurring basis? Who would miss that from their pocket? But if you had that many people, that would give close to like a million dollars a year, which would mean we could work on more freeing more people and do more policy. How many people who are wrongfully convicted

that need help that are languishing in prison unjustly right now would a million dollars a year help free? I think that, I think between 10 and 20. If every one of you did it, you could help people languishing in prison unjustly right now have a Christmas. But that's the work you do. That's the work you do. That's the work I do. Not bad from a no father middle-aged kid who got wrongly convicted of a murder at 17 years

old, railroaded by a bunch of cops and poorly defended by a guy who didn't care. I want to add just people thinking about the appeal you made, you know, that, you know, I work 50 to 60 hours a week. I don't get paid for it. So anything that people contributed, 100% of it would go towards freeing people. None of it would make its way into my pocket under any philosophy or line of reasoning. You're spending all of it to help people that are in the same situation you were. How could you not

expect these people to get out of jail and want to be your friend? Pretty amazing story. Jeff, I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed speaking with you and how much I appreciate you coming down from the Bronx to Memphis and spending time with me. An amazing story and amazing work you're doing and a really societal cultural thing that I don't think is talked about enough and you sharing it in such depth with us. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Thanks for being with me.

Thank you for having me on. And thank you for joining us this week. If Jeff or other guests have inspired you in general, or better yet, inspired you to take action by donating to the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation, taking on pro bono cases if you're an attorney or something else entirely. Please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normal folks dot us and guys, I will respond. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, share it on social,

subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it. Become a premium member at normalfolks.us. Any and all of these things that will help us grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week. I'm Solea Mosin, and I've covered economic policy for years and reported on how it impacts people across the United States. In 2016, I saw how voters were leaning towards Trump and how so many Americans felt misunderstood by Washington. So I started The Big Take DC. We dig into how money, politics, and power

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