An Army of Normal Folks - Lee Robbins: We Don’t Need 2nd Chances, We Need Better Chances (Pt 1)

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

The pastor and businessman never expected to find himself in prison, and yet there he was. So he decided to dive in, serving the minds and souls of the men around him. When Lee got out, he started a re-entry program called Vital Signs, which has helped over 1,800 returning citizens, boasts a recidivism rate of only 2%, and our favorite part is that it’s self-sustaining!Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When you say second chance, I tell people, I don't believe in second chances and I pause. You don't believe in second chances, what you're in this position for, you don't believe in second chances. I come to understand that they need better chances. You can give them a second, third, fourth, 90 times and they'll keep going to prison. Why? Because some of them never had a first chance. Welcome to an Army of Normal Folks. I'm Bill Courtney.

I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur. And I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. And the last part it unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about our team called undefeated. Guys I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people and nice suits using big words that nobody else uses on CNN and Fox but rather an army of normal folks us just you and me deciding, hey, I can help.

That's what Lee Robbins, the voice we just heard is done. This pastor and businessman never expected to find himself in prison, and yet there he was, and so he decided to dive in, serving the minds and souls of the men around him. And when he got out, he then started a reentry program called VitalSides, which has helped over 1800 returning citizens and boast a recidivism rate of only 2%. And my favorite part, this model of his, it's self-sustaining. I cannot wait for you to meet Pastor Lee right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner. Rob called me, so would Ed O'Brien, and asked me what I knew about this crime.

I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, anedad O'Brien, and ask me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. Well, last, who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president? My dad, 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban Missile Crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald

isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation, then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to who killed JFK on the I-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist.

We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never

have to say. Listen to Toss Show in the I Heart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary K. McBrayer, host of the podcast, the greatest true crime stories ever told. I write about true crime which means I live inside the research wormhole but I'm not necessarily interested in the headline grabbing elements, the blood and the gore, all of that. I'm more interested in the people behind these stories and what we can learn by looking at their experiences. You can meet me every week on the greatest true crime stories ever told,

where I dig into crimes where a woman is not just a victim. She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, the criminal, or some combination of these roles. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice,

and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Listen to the greatest true-crime stories ever told on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'm gonna tell you guys something, you know who likely won't be a sponsor of an army of normal folks is Regis. We rented a space at the office rental company to do this very

interview but their employee was late and wasn't there to open the office for us to do the interview so we had to move. The worst part about not showing up is they also refused to refund our reservation that they never made happen. The only reason I'm telling you this is when we moved, we moved to a hotel across the street, and we actually recorded this interview in a public space there, which obviously has people in it. So during the interview, you might hear people walking

around in the background occasionally. It doesn't happen too often, but if you hear that, it's not Alex the producer adding in some kind of weird background noise for effect. It's actually people walking around. But thanks to Regis, that's the best opportunity we had to complete our interview and if Regis is still listening, we're happy to take the refund and the rest of us, we'll get back to the upside. Lee Robbins, what's up?

What's up? What's up? Is just, I'm here with you, man. Hey man, we're in Atlanta. We'll get to what you're doing and what you've been doing for sure, but where'd you grow up? Where you from? I'm all the way from H town, Houston, Texas. Houston, Texas. Yeah, and the ghettos of Houston, Texas. Tell me about the ghettos. What war? It's actually the South Park. It's next to third ward. You probably known the Astrodone. Sure.

So it's right down the road from the Astrodone, right? Got it. And it is a place where it's a heavy poverty. You know, it's really a ghetto, ghetto place. It's Compton. It's kind of the Compton of Houston. Yes. siblings.

Yeah, I got two brothers and two sisters, five of us. Five of you and mom and dad at home? Actually mom raised five kids as a maid. Where dad go? Dad, they divorced when I was four and dad was doing his thing. You know, and my mom was forced to raise the, I mean my siblings,

and very tough, very tough time. No transportation for her. She had to use the city bus to go from job to job, house to house as a maid. She was a drunkard herself. I can see my mom coming home. She was an alcoholic. Alcoholic, drinking'll call it. Alcoholic.

Drinking. A lot and embarrassed about the kids. You know, I mean, embarrassed in front of the kids. My friends, when my mom was coming home, staggering from one side of the street to the other side. So when you were at home, you were embarrassed. I was very embarrassed of my mom. Where were you in the group of kids? What number were you?

Next to the youngest. Got it. You know, so my, did the oldest almost help raise you guys to? Exactly. I'm my sister. She's the oldest and then I had a brother and then another sister and then me, then another brother. You know, so she was pretty much our mom.

So did you, I guess, no transportation, you went to school in the hood, wherever school was there? Three miles walking to school. And, you know, I can remember walking to school with my shoes, the soles of my shoes out at times and socks getting wet. And, you know, you're going to school, rain, sleep, you're, it's you're going to be my grandmother of grandfather grew up in the depression. Uh-huh. I had some loafers that I'd worn. I don't know about a half dollar size hole just right in the in the hole. And they took some cardboard cut out at disc and tucked it in my shoe.

And I had I had cardboard cover in a hole in my shoe for about two, three weeks. So I know what that's. You know that like that. And it's all right until it rains. Yeah. That cardboard gets soggy and you think it wet me your feet. Stay exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And everybody don't want to sit next to you. But no, it's the next. I got what the stick it to you. Stick it to you. Absolutely. So you did you did you stay all the way through high school in in this area in South South Park South Park. So you graduated high school from the school in South Park. Yes.

Graduated from high school. You know, I did some some things as in the lily football. Good. You know, play dad kept me out of trouble. Play some basketball. Yeah. I don't even know if you remember the five slam of jam was back in the day. You were pretty good. You could not remember a chemo wise one, Clyde Dressler. And who was the third one?

Uh, yeah, young. Yeah, yeah, right. Sure, but yeah, but why? That's everybody Houston was just set on fire by the right. Yeah. I yeah, well, why the that's everybody Houston was just set on fire by the right. I mean, that's a that's a memorable thing because all they did was slam. You know, that's an amiss. Yeah, that's right. Well, I mentioned them because those are the guys that I used to play against. I was all American in high school basketball. You were all American in American high school. Yes then. Were you really broke? Yes. I used to play against them guys in high school.

Why didn't you go, well, okay, so you graduated and you went to the University of Houston, did you go to Houston to play basketball? I went to Houston to play basketball, but then I didn't pass the physical. And tell me, flat feet, they didn't even want to deal with me. Even in a mall in America. Yeah.

And then I had of course I had an injury too. And then I thought, man, do I want to have a surgery? I do I want to play basketball or what would I do with my life right now? It was a deciding factor. I decided at that time that I was going to be a preacher. And then he's like, what do you want to be a preacher for? I'm like, come out. You come out like your freshman year in college.

Yes. So the reason you went to the University of Houston was basketball. Well, that's what I was trying to get to is what got you to the University of Houston. And now this comes up. Basketball. You have to, you could who?

Yeah. Yeah, I had a little something. And I still think I got something, but you know, the mind is, you know, it's not, the mind is there, but the body is not there, right? All right, so now basketball's gone and your freshman at the University of Houston, you say I wanna be a preacher.

Right, so what's your major? It's actually business computer information systems, but I thought that doesn't job. That doesn't job because I thought man preachers are poor. I don't want to be an operation. I mean I have a heart to want to help people but they're poor. They don't have no money. You know what I say? Let me get my degree in business computer information system and business and then I can get that degree first, start working in, and then support myself, and then I can do what I really like doing. So, where did the, where did the draw to faith come from?

I mean, despite your mother's alcoholism and the poverty, were you all always in church on Sundays or? Not really. My, when I saw that much destruction in my life, and I thought, man, it's got to be a better life. It's got to be something better than this. And I can remember making a deal with God. I said, God, if I can stop smoking dope

and get off these drugs myself, then I don't need you. So where were you smoking weed in high school? In high school. I started when I was eight years old. Eight to fifteen. I was smoking dope, you know. And I was going to be a drug dealer, actually. My brother taught me how to sell drugs.

I had people, that's why I learned most of my business skills from. I was franchising, you know, people working for us on the streets, you know, doing our business, right? And I thought, man, this is not a good life for me. And so I decided, if I can't stop this myself, then that means I don't have the strength to do this. And I need to trust something bigger than myself. And I made a deal with guys that if you, if I can't stop it in 30 days, I'm giving my life

over to you. Well, 29 days, I failed. Unbelievable. So, the truth is you're a kid born into poverty with absent father and a alcoholic mother and you're doing with the streets bring you and you have to be talented basketball player. But you're in the streets doing street kid stuff. And because of your basketball you're able to get to University Houston. Absolutely.

And there you said, well, let me try this management information, computer systems things, because maybe I can make some money. Yes. And that's that. That's that. And you graduate from Houston with that degree. With that degree. And you still want to be a preacher?

I still am a preacher, you know, but I'm one that probably unorthodox preacher. I mean, you know, in terms of, I'm not the one with the suit on Sunday and preaching and, you know, I don't like the flamboyance of a lot of that. I just want to be a normal dude that has the Lord in his heart and his life and love on people. Okay.

So you go to Tulsa because you want to get your degree, your masters, I think from Orobberts. Yes. I decided to go to Orobberts to get my master's in the industry and the vanity. And divinity. Yeah, that's a three year degree. And Tulsa Oklahoma is really like the harbor of Christian schools. You're in Tulsa and you start a business, is that? Yeah.

What spurred the business? Well, you know, in school, student, you doing full-time classes, no money. No doubt. I was with you. Broke. Broke in poor. And I thought, well, I need to make some money. So, I remember my cousin, he's got an accounting firm, a tax firm.

And I had spent a summer or two there learning that business and that kind of thing. And I thought, well, maybe I can, franchise that business. Does he do like preparing tax like an H&R block thing? Or does he have a tax deal? A tax preparation company. Yeah, do you have to be an accountant?

You don't have to be an accountant necessarily to have one of those. No, no, he was the CPA over our company. And you know, he checked all the documents and stuff like that, but I was just doing regular tax returns, bookkeeping. Uh-uh. Busy, busy, busy, busy, during tax season. Absolutely, absolutely.

And then we tapped into an industry of barbers and hairstyles who would not prepare their tax returns. They wouldn't do their tax returns. And, but they couldn't get cars and houses and stuff,, they wouldn't do their tax returns, but they couldn't get cars and houses and stuff, they couldn't prove their records. So that was an industry I got into. And I started getting a bunch of borrowers and hairstylers and a lot of people who have a lot of cash. Right.

Right. Yeah. All right. So you're doing that while you're going to school. While I'm going to school. All right. And so basically you're preparing taxes for folks. Yeah. All right. So you're doing that while you're going to school while I'm going to school. All right. And so basically you're preparing taxes for folks. Correct. All right. And helping them hopefully clean up their cash heavy businesses. Absolutely. Absolutely. In a legal way.

In a legal way. It was a niche in that business. Sure. And you make a little money doing it. Why are you going to school? Absolutely. And so do you graduate from Orobrits? Yeah, I graduated from Orobrits. Business was doing well, making six figures at this point, franchising the business. How old are you at this time? I'm 29. Are you married? No, I'm not married at this time. I got married on 32. Got it. And so I'm just I'm I'm French. I have this entrepreneurial background that I learned back in the drug. Got it.

Right. And I saw I'm a franchise this man. I'm gonna start getting I got five offices open. We're doing thousands and thousands of dollars work to tax returns in this industry and this niche and everybody loving, you know, hey, listen, I can still report my taxes, I can do it, and you know, I don't have to do stuff under the table now, I can report my financials and give me a house and give me a car. The people that you're serving are right.

Yeah, they're like, man, I love this business, they bring me on, pay me monthly residual income, and this is growing. And so I graduated from Old Roberts, and it allowed me to be able to go and buy a house in Georgia. So I'm doing good in Georgia. I left that office in Tulsa, Oklahoma, to one of the employees there.

All right, hang on. Okay. So, why Georgia? Georgia is my wife and I. All right, hang on. Okay. So, lie Georgia. Georgia is my wife and I, you know, our ministry. It was a multicultural ministry. Hold it. We're jumping. Okay. During the growing of the business, you do meet your wife.

I do. And also. In Tulsa. All right. And you guys get married. We get married. And now your business is grown. Yes. And you're married. And now your business is grown and you're married

and you decide you want to move to Georgia for the ministry, not for the business. Right, for the ministry. And so we thought Georgia was a very segregated place, you know, our ministry of multiculturalism can thrive. And so we can explain multiculturalism. Multiculturalism, multiracial, you know, multiple races, cultures coming together in one place, you know, looks like one church.

It didn't matter what color you were with race, what culture we bring in it together, right? Because we want to look like heaven. You know, I don't know who said it, but it's been said that the most segregated day in the United States of Sunday. Correct. Absolutely. 11 o'clock hour on Sunday. And so you're trying to blend that. Trying to blend that because.

Well, let me ask that. How are you going to blend black folks who are used to two and a half hour services? White folks who are ready to go in one hour. How you do that? What do you have an hour and 30 minutes? Is that the compromise? That's not the worst. There was a lot of compromising.

My wife and I met my wife in seminarian. When we asked the professor, how do you start a multi-culturalist? We haven't seen nothing like that out there back in because it's not just black and white Yeah, it's actually there's there's such a difference in the way that black and white people worship the same God off Absolutely, absolutely. So what do you do? Well the professors didn't know they're like we never seen he said they said when you guys go out then And started church You know you write the book and we'll teach it. That's all. I say, okay, then I start asking the Lord. I say, how do we start a multicultural

church? And he gives me one word from scratch. Just start over. Just do it. Build it from scratch. Right. And I say, what does that look like? He said, look at the music that you play. Right. Make sure it's multicultural. Look at your leadership. Make sure it looks multicultural. The way you're preaching style, you can be hoping all the time, you got to teach something. Right. And then look at the timing, you know, don't spend these hours long hours in services. Make a one come back next week. So I took, I took two of my men as his football players one time to church with me.

Uh-huh. I did it a lot. Yeah. This particular time I took two clowns, man. I love these kids with clowns, right? They were the ones that I got mad at and made run laps all the time. Right. But Lord have mercy when I was on the way home.

I was dying laughing because they weren't her layers. I couldn't let them know they got me, but they got me, right? So I take my church and the off-and-play came around and they did put an on in it. And the first, the first kid didn't put an on in it. And then Drake put his money in it. And he nudged. Jartavius and Jartavius went and put the money in it. And Jartavius said, man, I ain't got one dollar and I needed to wait. And Trey goes, don't you know this thing's only coming around

one time. They ain't got no building fun. This place you're paid for. That's a difference. And it would have taught me a lesson because after church, I said, well, we all talk about. They like coach and archer software play comes around. That's a difference. And it would have taught me a lesson because I have to church. I said, well, we all talk about, they like coach and archer software play control three times.

And I said, really? They said, yeah, because you got the reg law, friend, then you got the built and fun, then you got the wellness check funds or whatever. And he said, you got to keep it up money. You pocket your pocket. So every time it comes, rack them. That's true. I didn't know that.

That is so true. I didn't know that. Yeah. So I get it. You do it on multicultural church, but there's a lot of different stuff to it. It is. It is. By the way, I'm in a multicultural relationship, right?

We got mixed children. And so it's kind of organic for us, you know? Sure, sure. It's life. Right? It's in our life. So when you come to the front door, if you don't have a multi-cultural mindset, you're probably not going to join our church. Fair enough.

Fair enough. And now, a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, I hope you'll subscribe to the podcast so that you'll get the newest episodes in your library every week. And also, consider signing up to join the army at normalfokes.us because together, we can change the country, and you'll also receive weekly email updates about the army. We'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing

my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show in the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner. Rob called me, so would Ado Bryan and asked me what I knew about this crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story.

And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. My dad, a 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, sitting president. My dad, the father. JFK screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban Missile Crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee

was being trained for a specific operation, then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to who killed JFK on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary K. McBrare, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.

I write about True Crime, which means I live inside the research wormhole, but I'm not necessarily interested in the headline grabbing elements, the blood and the gore, all of that. I'm more interested in the people behind these stories and what we can learn by looking at their experiences. You can meet me every week on the greatest true crime stories ever told, where I dig into crimes where a woman is not just a victim. She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, the criminal, or some combination of these roles. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult,

and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Listen to the greatest true-crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You start this church in, I guess, Atlanta area. Is that right?

Right. Yeah, we start in Atlanta area. Okay. And you do it because Atlanta has lots of culture in it. Right. Okay. And very segregated. And it is very segregated.

And so, but you got this business that you built that's still operating back in Tulsa and the late year. Yeah, Tulsa and we did expand here to Georgia as well. Okay. There's four of the offices here and that one office in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Okay. And so what I'm...

So we're doing well. We're building the church. Hundreds and hundreds of members are coming. We left that to... When you say you're building a church, do you have a fixed facility yet? Yeah, we have a 14,000 square footage building. Wow, then you are building a church.

Building a church. A physical church. Yes, and people. And it's just growing and growing. And we're just having the best time of our lives. A wife and I, we're growing, everything is happening. Like, we thought it would happen, and then Tulsa, the employee there,

started doing stuff under the table that I knew nothing about. You know, he started doing tax returns on the side, not within the company now. And so he's using the company's name, but he's not reporting it because he's getting cash on the side. And but he's using my name. Because you own the business because I own the business. He's my office, my

all our resources. And he's getting this stuff on the side. And so he he started helping his friends out a little bit on the tax returns. Because everything we do is very conservative. We watch and everything that comes through is check two or three times. We've got CPA looking at it and making sure everything's good. He didn't send it through that process because he's getting money on the side. And then he gets in trouble. He gets in to the point where he gets indicted. Then it's my company. And he tells me he's getting indicted and then I come down to try to save you. You know, this is, I can't believe it.

This guy's doing tax returns correctly, I'm thinking. Well, because they think, and I'm the big fish of the whole company, let's indict him too. So I get indict. Yikes. And so now we're gonna go to trial. A lot of times people take pleas when you're getting indicted by the face. I was gonna take the plea.

And even the prosecutor said, he's not gonna take a plea, because he's not gonna lie on himself. He's a preacher. So she was right. And exactly. And so I told my lawyer at the best lawyer that you could ever have went to trial. And second day, first day, second day,

third day in trial, we're winning. When I say we're winning, I'm saying that it's obvious to the judge and the jury. They can't put a case on you. They can't put a case on you. you didn't have anything to do with it. You're never, every time I go in there. Other than, I mean, an off-hander, owner business. Right.

And you are responsible for the people who work for you. Exactly. And your name's on it. That's exactly, you know, I should. The crown's heavy. The crown is heavy. And so, so you did have responsibility that you didn't properly oversee your employee. Exactly.

I mean, that's what I, from a business, from a business owner's perspective. Right. I guess if I'm putting myself in your shoe, my, my sin in this and my problem in this is I wild a little bit of a lack of control inside my institution, but still that can, that's not necessarily criminal, I don't think. No, well, it's not criminal, it's not righteous, but it's not criminal either. It's not, it's, it's, it's, it could be, you know, like I said before, it goes all the way back for hiring this particular person. This is probably the mistake of the first time.

That's the mistake in it. You know, saying this person, the reason why I hired him, is because he lost a job. He was going to my church, he lost a job in Tulsa. And he had a wife and four kids. And I knew why he lost that job, but I didn't pay much attention to it.

So he had some shady past. He had some, say, took a company truck out of town and wasn't supposed to and got fired. And this guy is working. I brought him on board because I wanted him to make some money and take care of his family. There's something to be learned about that. It's that doing good things versus doing God things. Right? I did a good thing is bringing somebody on in spite of their past and giving them opportunity.

Right? The God thing that God said, do that. And when I look back, hindsight, God never said, told me to do that. I had a mentor that grew up. Mm-hmm. And told me to do that. I had a mentor that grew up. And he used to say that your heart's ego gets in the way of your mind too often. And he said, and you want to know how I can prove that to you. I said, sure. He said, have you ever felt when something goes wrong

and thought to yourself, a new-ishin' had done that? And I said, everybody's felt that. And he said, well, when something blows up and your first response is a new-ishin' had done that, that means your brain gave you the right answer to that quandary, but you chose to ignore your brain because your ego thought you knew better. Oh, that is, that is the truth.

That is what Edna Middor told me. He said, when your brain's telling you not to do something and your ego is telling you to do something, take a deep breath and listen. Yeah. Because your brain will give you the answer to any question you ask it. If you'll just shut yourself down. Absolutely. And if you got it, wife right there, that was like I was close this office down. You don't need this office. You know, I'm like, no, but he's going to lose his job. He's going to lose. He can't take care his family. So three days into the court over all of this despite the mistake that you made with the guy and again not hammering you but I get it out of business. You know, you pay for those things, but still you maybe held accountable to some losses or whatever, but you're not losing a criminal case because they're not able

because they can't rightly connect dots that aren't there. And you didn't know this was going on. Right, I did not know it was going on. So you feel like three days, you're at least winning the criminal portion of this. Absolutely, I've come in the court. Can you point out that Mr. Rob is in the courtroom, never seen my face. Did he do your taxes?

No. Yeah, so the people that they were, that he was doing the work for they would testifying Yeah, and every met this guy never met this guy. There's a other guy who I was yeah, yeah This guy is the one that did my taxes. I know him right. I said they never met me before right yeah, so so I'm I'm the you know third day for we went in the case and then all of a sudden something changed in the trial. They put a tax return up. It had a company stamp on it, my company stamp. But the one that we had as evidence against us didn't have a company stamp on it. You

think they stamped it? Yeah. You think they forged evidence? Yes. The prosecutor forged evidence? Yes. For real now. Yes. I mean, is that really happening now, then? It really happened then, and still happening today.

They forged these documents and number tell you how I know this really happened. My lawyer calls examined the same same document and as he was crossed with examined with the same witness that they had on the stand he was bringing up this difference and all of a sudden six prosecutors go down in their chair sliding down in their chair and the proceeding stopped. The whole proceeding stopped. This is the middle of the day. This is a busy court. The whole proceeding stop. This is the middle of the day. This is a busy court. The whole proceeding stop and it's going to now start over the next day.

Why? So that can regroup. Yeah. And so when we the next morning my lawyer, all of a sudden tells me he's got five years of tax returns he has not done. Your own attorney? My own attorney, after a year's preparation. Good Lord. And I'm like, why are you telling me this now? This is a conflict of interest. But no, we got you, man.

We're gonna win this case, remember? They tried to change those documents on you, so he wants to keep me in the trial. I'm saying, I didn't figure all this out. And then until they finished their trial, they, the prosecutors, finished their part of the trial. Now's our time. I never had a trial put up. I never had a case put up.

He never recalled any witnesses. He never went back and re-examined the documents. He's never done. He had some character witnesses come up at the end. So is he getting out of his five years of mess by Railroad and the whole deal? Yeah, so his clothes and arguments is this. You know, the prosecutors, the state really won this trial is how overt this was. They really won this trial. My client, they closed my clients' office down and look at your tax dollars being used very well. That's as close an argument. Wow. I got thrown under the bus, you know, railroads. So I'm like, can you, before that, and he's back up, before that,

I said, can you put me on the stand because they put the code defended on the stand with a new lawyer, which was an ex-propsecuted? To say he never did any tax returns. Oh my gosh. He did no tax returns, and this is his office there. And then I was my time. I said, well, you need to put me up there so I can say, I didn't do the tax returns

because it's his word against my word. My Lord say, I don't have any questions for you. Wow. I have no questions for you. I said, you have to have some questions for me. You can't, we can't. And I'm thinking I've never been in trouble. I've never not like this before. If I say the thing, they're going to hold me contempt the court, that I die. I need to talk through my lawyer. And so by the time it was over, long story short,

I got found guilty of false tax returns and was acquitted of conspiracy. My co-defendant, which is the employee, got acquitted of both. Wow. And it was because I was not able to speak for myself on that. They had him for 65 counts.

They had me for 15 of the same 65 counts because there's this conspiracy there. If they would have found me guilty of all him and me guilty, I could have done 15 years. So if there was a blessing that came out out of this when they didn't find him guilty They only gave me three and a half years of false tax returns But now you got to do three and a half years. Yeah, yeah We'll be right back We'll be right back. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Ado Brein and asked me what I knew about this

crime. I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an award-winning journalist, that's the making of an incredible story. And on this podcast, you're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. We'll ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. My dad, the 5JFK, screwed us at the Bay of Pigs, and then he screwed us after the Cuban Missile Crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswald isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained

for a specific operation, then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make

you think, this isn't the one for you. But it will be entertaining to a very select few, because you don't make it to your mid-40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss Show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary K. McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. I write about true crime, which means I live inside the research wormhole, but I'm not necessarily interested in the headline grabbing elements, the blood, and the gore, all of that.

I'm more interested in the people behind these stories and what we can learn by looking at their experiences. You can meet me every week on the greatest true crime stories ever told, where I dig into crimes where a woman is not just a victim. She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, the criminal, or some combination of these roles. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find.

Because these are the stories we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Listen to the greatest true-crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you are, how many children do you have at this point? I have three children.

You have all three children. So no, no, no, excuse me. No, not at this point. I think we had two at this point you have all three. So. No, no, no, excuse me. No, not at this point. Nothing we had to at this point. Yeah, okay. And the third one came in 2003. So you have, you have come from the projects and the ghetto of Houston.

You have a degree, an undergraduate degree, undergraduate degree, you built a business, and now you've built a multicultural church in Georgia, and you're thinking to go to jail. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember my last... And married. And married.

With children. And you're going to jail. I'm going to turn myself in. And I can... I can... I can feel like... myself in and actors that feel like. Well, forget that. I mean, absent the fact that you had to have felt well-rided. that would be anger and frustration everything and I get that when I'm talking about is. I mean I know where I came from and I know I didn't have much nothing coming up and I know I've reached a point my life where at least I've been able to provide for my family myself and have some level success in my life.

and have some level of success in my life. In order to all be stripped away, I think I would feel desperate. I mean, what did you feel? Empty. Empty. I felt like I was forsaken by God, forsaken by man. And I was disappointed with myself.

Yeah. I was very disappointed because I made some decisions. That led to it. Ultimately, I take what you got on it. Because you partnered up with this guy that you wouldn't need to get anyway. I did it first. I was bitter first.

I was very bitter about that. And I had to come to this understanding that I was flawed. Because when I was in prison, I was angry with everybody. The judge, the prosecutors, everybody, the co-defendant, myself, I'm just mad. My god. That's fair, no?

Yeah. I'm there. And then you get in prison. My wife's brought me off. First of all, I'm looking mad, right? God. That's fair, not? Yeah. I'm there. And then you go and you get in prison. My wife dropped me off. First of all, I'm looking at my children. I'm thinking I'm not gonna ever see them in this context for at least for no three and a half years. Right. Drop them off at the daycare. And then they kiss me just like normal. They don't have a clue. They're like, they don't. So here I am. I'm getting dropped off at prison. I'm sending these, these bars,

and I'm looking at these wire, bar, wire fence, and they talk to you. They literally talk to you, and they say, you're going nowhere for three years, for 30 years, for 50 years. And you get this sickness, everybody feels this sickness, I found out. And I-

It's just this pit, it's just, you don't know what to do at all this, you're angry, you're upset, you know, some people- If you no longer have control over anything in your life. You're told when does sour shave? There's no big eyes, no little use in prison, I don't care who it was, you could have been a multi-millionaire or you can be just a poor person off the street. Doesn't matter, everybody gets treated the same. Which is like crap. Like crap. They tell you, it's nothing coming here.

I can remember I said, I'm divinely favorite. They say, no, you're not in here. So, I'm just going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going have no divine. I can remember I said I'm divinely favorite You know they say no you're not in here So how this felt was just empty and desperate just empty and desperate and your heart must be breaking as you're saying goodbye to your family Oh, and this happens on a regular basis when they come to visitation We'll talk about that. But what I'm thinking is that first day, and then also I'm sitting here as I'm thinking through talking to you about this. Mm-hmm.

You also, you loosen everything. Mm-hmm. I mean, how can you run a church when you're not there and your business is gone? Yeah. So you've come from nowhere, built up the church in this business, and it's over.

It's over. And how are you gonna take care of your wife and kids? Well and it's over. It's over. And how are you going to take care of your wife and kids? When she's never worked outside the house, she... I don't know how they're going to make it now. I don't know. We're going to... So you've got to be desperate. Oh, just desperate, depressed, down and out. Don't know what to do.

Didn't want to pray. Couldn't pray because I'm mad at God. Just think about it. You just... You're at a state where you're like, how in the world, like, God here in the first place. I'm blaming everybody else but myself, right? Then I, then there was something that happened while I was in prison, going through all these emotions. After I did my appeal, I lost the appeal, losing it meaning that they're not gonna answer it. Right. They never answered it to this day.

Right. So I'm like, okay. Then God shows me as I'm, Yeah, important for the listeners, losing a pill, that means they reviewed your case and found you guilty again. They just said, nah, we ain't revisiting this. We're calling this close. That's right. So quit writing us. Quit writing us. So you've written really losing a pill. You just never

going to get an appeal hard. Right. Okay. Exactly. But yeah, you cling to a little hope of an appeal. Right. And when that's over, you lose all that hope to. You go into another spiral of depression. Yeah, I get it. I've spoken with people who have explained that the appeal, only like one tenth of one percent of appeals actually go anywhere. But the reason so many people send them out is that many of them don't even think they have a chance, but it just offers them some shred of hope that is nonexistent Exactly exactly

So I mean I'm in the prison in the court yours of the prison This is when things really started shifting and turning around in my mindset I'm watching these guys still in out of the kitchen, right bread. I'm like what you you locked up I mean you you still still, and they got you already. What you doing? They got cameras around here, you know? And then all of a sudden, this familiar voice in my mind started speaking.

Do you think these bones can live right here? And I'm like, this familiar voice is how God talks to me in my mind. I said, you know why you're talking to me, I don't wanna talk to you. And he said, I want you to speak life to those dry bones right there. I want you to speak life to them.

Yes, I want you to speak life to them. And then he said, I want you to look at the four wins. And I want you to speak life to the four wins to speak life to them. Yes, I want you to speak life to them. And then he said, I want you to look at the four wins and I want you to speak life to the four wins to speak life to them. And what that meant to me was that I was supposed to, in spite of my situation, I was to bring hope in a dark place. Because I had the goods to do that. I had the ability. You have the one you have the pedigree. Right. Because you've actually got no masters in divinity.

And you built church. So you had the chops. Yeah. You had the no, you had to know how. Just had to have the one to I guess. Yeah, the one to was not there until guys started showing me my side. So now you're going to start a church. Well, that was the first thing that started showing me my side. So now you're gonna start a church show? Well, that was the first thing that brought out

reach and brought. Well, it was the first thing to start changing my heart, you know, and then he showed me another thing he said, you remember when I told you to close that office and then I confirmed that with my wife? Yeah, with your wife? Yeah. Which is my second Holy Spirit.

What you did? Well, the way that I did. And I like, God, I'm gonna do a good thing. Yeah. You remember I told you to my second Holy Spirit. What you did. Well, I did. And I'm like, God, I'm going to do a good thing. Yeah. You see, remember I told you to close that? You didn't do it. He said, that is sin to me. He said, with no more, no more less sin than Adam.

So was it greed, rega? I think it was both. Yeah, be honest with you. See, I've made mistakes for my business. Yeah. And I've justified it with I'm doing this good thing. Yeah. But the truth is it was my own greed and ego. And so I hear your story. Right. And I feel what you're saying. Like we want to help out this guy. Right. Even though you know this guy is not a good dude. Yeah. What do you think about his family and everything else?

But in the back of my mind, I'm hearing that. And I'm thinking, but he was also making some money doing this too. Probably I wouldn't do it if I wasn't making any money. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's really, that is real, right? That's real.

That's what you find out in places like that. I feel it. I mean, I haven't been in prison, but I know I made mistakes. Mm-hmm. Justify them as in I'm doing being the good guy doing things, but if you know the real truth, come on I was getting something out of it. You probably wouldn't do it if you, you know, it'd be honest I wouldn't, you know, because I'm a business person. I'm a businessman, you know, I'm saying we need to get something and so I got something I mean, why not do something good while you I don't know Which one good make little money? I don't know which came first. I know you know, I'm saying good

Might have been an initial thing. Yeah, but hey, I could also make some money doing this. I don't know which one came first Yeah, those those kind of messes oftentimes don't have a beginning or an end. That's right. That's right So yeah, they're just a circle of mess Yes, right. And so they're just a circle of mess. So now you're in prison and you feel like the Lord's put on your heart to trot us, read some hope and use the talent he's giving you inside prison. I'm ready to go now. So how did you do it?

Yeah, I started a program in there. I started a program called a path program. Purpose of Chi through him. And I thought, okay, what is the first thing that Jesus did? Jesus went around and recruited people. And I looked at all of this, this educational capital in here. You got XCPA, psych colleges, you got exposures, business people, congressmen, all these, because that was it's federal prison camp, right? Very educated people. I say, oh, there's capital here. Let me go around and recruit, you know, coaches in here.

And I had this mind of fresh life, right? This fresh life is an acronym studying for financial relationship, education, spiritual health, legal, investments, fitness, and entrepreneurship. So it's because it's federal prison camp, you've got some white collar criminals in there. Oh there that have a lot to offer in terms of their experience in, oh, wow. Yeah. So you're going out and finding guys that do financial stuff, a college psychologist, or whatever.

They made missteps to get themselves in prison, but they still have that core competency. They have to the school of thought that they know. And they're just like me and we want to do the right thing. And so we got a lot of younger guys in there that are misdirected, don't have any direction. They just just out there lost. I thought, let me start. Let me get these very educated guys that have a heart that

want to help these younger community. And every week we started a path program, hundreds and hundreds of people you show up after work, because they love this program. We have a coach a week, fresh life coach, and the first sort of mentoring program, basically. Yep. And so after the, in prison. In prison.

And so these mentoring is what they would do after the class. They will hold it up around the trees and the coach will be teaching their students. Not school. Yeah, and they had the time to do it. And so they would come up. That's the point, right? Right.

And so they would come out with life plans, business plans, ministry plans, and a lot of them came out and started churches, businesses, got jobs with their lives, reunited with their families. So that was probably the best thing I ever done in my life really in a prison set. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Pastor Lee Robinson. Part two is now available, which dives into his extraordinary reentry program called VitalScience. I hope you'll listen in. It's interesting stuff.

I'll see you in part two. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities, and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire, or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. Listen to Tosh Show in the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Breiner, Rob called me, so would Edo Brein, and asked me what I knew about this crime.

Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president? Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover-up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, where I dig into crimes where a woman is not just a victim. She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner, the criminal, or some combination of those roles. These are the stories we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and

the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Listen to the greatest true-crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.