An Army of Normal Folks - Richard McKinney: I Was Going To Bomb Their Mosque, But Then They Loved Me (Pt 1)

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Veteran Richard McKinney hated Muslims and after returning from Iraq, he couldn't stand seeing "the enemy" in his community of Muncie, Indiana. He visited their mosque to justify his planned bombing of it, but their love for him completely transformed his heart. Ultimately, Richard converted to Islam and even served as the mosque’s President. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

So when I actually went into the mosque that one day, the bomb was done. I just needed time, a time and date, which I'd already decided was going to be during Ramadan, which is the holy month, because it's kind of like Catholics in Christmas Mass. Right. Everybody's there. So there were, there was the biggest opportunity for the greatest about a carnage and damage on that day. It was going to be a Friday afternoon during the month of

Ramadan, because I knew they would all be there. And you were going to plant this thing at their place and blow them up. Already had a place for it, everything. It was just a matter of just waiting. You realize that that would make you no different than the men who flew the planes into the world traits of I know that now. Welcome to an army of normal folks I'm Bill Courtney I'm a normal guy I'm a husband I'm a father I'm entrepreneur, and I've been a football

coach in inner city Memphis. In the last part, it unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called undefeated. Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits talking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks, us, just you and me deciding, hey, I can help. That's what Richard McKinney, the voice we just heard, has done. Richard served in the Marine Corps and Army, and his goal was to die as a hero for killing Muslims. When he came back home to Muncie, Indiana, he couldn't stand seeing them in his community,

which led to his plan to bomb their mosque. And then their love stood in the way and it changed him forever. I cannot wait for you to meet Richard right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. John Stewart is back in the host chair at The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears

on The Daily Show, Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports, and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization and more. We share

what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty, tiny slipper on a large, ungainly foot. In the Grimm brothers' version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's, they will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue.

Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm. Listen to the Deep Dark Woods on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Richard McKinney, otherwise known as Mac. Welcome to Memphis, bro. Thank you. Glad to be here. Glad to be here. Drove down from Muncie, Indiana. Yep. And first thing you saw when you crossed the river was a big pyramid with Bass Pro on it and it blew your mind Yeah, only in Tennessee, right?

Joe was drive off the road going what is that? I was like man What is this man Tennessee got a pyramid and the Bass Pro shops in the pyramid? Yeah, that's right. Well Memphis Memphis, Egypt on the river. Hey, there you go. Yeah, I got it now. Yeah. That's the reason thought of that. So and then we bring you to this awesome place and cross that this used to be Sears. So well, yeah, back you remember back in the days when the catalog Sears catalogs, well, that will say Sears based in Chicago had four or five major headquarters hubs And Memphis was one of them. This entire thing was the Sears headquarter for the Southeast for all the catalogs.

And anyway, when Sears had troubles, this place was empty. There was nobody here. This was 15 years ago. This was a ghost town and the neighborhood around was a ghost town and they rehabbed this building. There's a school in it. There's businesses in it.

There's this awesome Memphis listening lab in it. And it's revitalized this whole part of the city. So it's kind of got a cool vibe when you walk in. I know you probably didn't have any idea what you're walking into. Not a clue. I even asked people, I said, hey, where's this Memphis listening center at? Listening lab. You're like, oh.

That's in the Cross-town Concourse right here in the old Sears building Memphis and cool cool vibe in here. So welcome to Memphis. For those listening, Mack's story is gonna sound like a country music song at the very beginning. Then it's gonna sound like something you've seen on the movies in the middle. And then the end is going to blow your mind. I, uh, Mac, your man who's lived many lives and is lucky probably to have one considering some of your service.

But first we're going to get in all that. Where you from? How'd you grow up? Well, I grew up in Cincinnati, Cincinnati, Ohio. I was an inner city kid. Went to a grade school in the mid-70s and Cincinnati was still going through desegregation. But because I grew up in the system, I was part of the desegregation. I was the only white kid on my school bus, right? It's a socioeconomic thing, right? That's where I lived.

And it was, I liked it in a lot of ways, but I'm glad I got out. Were, if that's the case, were your mom and dad at home? My mom and dad have been divorced my whole life. Got it. So you grow up with your mom My mom and my grandparents got it. Yeah, and I would assume from what you're saying probably Pretty blue collar lower income very blue collar. My grandfather couldn't even read and write really. Yeah And what about your mom? What'd she do? She was on disability. I remember most of my life.

She had some serious issues with dependency and psychological disorders, you know, here and there, a lot of anxiety and stuff. She had a few jobs, mainly secretarial type stuff. That was back in the age of typewriters and stuff. Right. Right. You just, no, it's not going to happen anymore. So was your dad involved in your life much? Yeah, actually he was. He actually owned a business. He was a meat cutter by trade.

He was in the Marine Corps for four years, got out, went to trade school to actually get certified as a meat cutter and he owned his own shop there in a place called New Richmond, Ohio, right on the river. No only job me too my dad left when I was four so I Get the I get the life and so where you come from is inner city Not much money at all A mom who sounded like she struggled a little not talking about your mom But no, no, absolutely a divorce probably a little not talking about your mom, but no, no absolutely a divorce probably a grandfather who was in your life, I guess

yeah, but He was a strange person strange person to me was strange for me come from the hills Kentucky I get it. Yeah, and couldn't read or write couldn't read or write right So not exactly a life of privilege or shiny castles on the hill. No, not at all. And so in high school, what did you get into? Well sports, you know, because my whole thing was I was going to be a pro ball player. I didn't even pick a sport yet.

I played them all. I played football when right from turning in my equipment after the football season, the basketball conditioning, getting done with that and going right to baseball. Got it. And, and I mean, I just played sports year round and I was going to be a pro ball player. That was it. Period. But about my junior year, this was right before I ran away from home.

My junior year, I had come to the realization that, dude, listen, you're not that big. Football's out. You can't play basketball. Matter of fact, I showed up for my sophomore year for basketball tryouts. Coach put his arm around my shoulders and said, Hey, let's go talk to the swim coach. True story. True story. That's how bad a basketball I am. I slammed that year. Um, and then baseball.

And the funny thing about baseball is that it really was not that good. I'm left handed. So they made me a relief pitcher because there were no left handers. Well, we're going to make him a pitcher. He can't throw, but we're going to make him a pitcher. And at the high school level, I had two pitches, a fastball that really was not fast at all and a curveball that hung about eye level for three days before it would drop. Yeah, but I struck people out. It was amazing. It was it just was coaches would get opposing coaches would get so frustrated with their players.

Yeah, but you weren't going to go play pro baseball. I wore not. I know I was not going to go play pro baseball. Yeah. So what'd you get into? Well, drugs. Using Dylan. Well, both eventually. That's what ended my high school careers. I got busted for selling drug dolls came to the school and

I have a feeling I know it's that well, I think it was one of my competitors that. Nor did you probably probably. I have a feeling I know is that well I think it was one of my competitors that Norris. Radical. Probably, probably, you know I was selling two dollar joints man, you know back in the eight back in the early eighties, you know and it's not a big deal but you know and it you know so here I am I got no high school education don't know what to do, don't have any skills, and I am not going to go play pro ball. I couldn't even, I don't even think I'd be allowed to walk on a college campus. So I joined the Marine Corps.

And I read when you said when you joined the Marines, it was an opportunity to do something to get away from all the life, but also you the Marines, it was an opportunity to do something to get away from all the life, but also you felt like maybe it earned you some respect. Yeah, absolutely. Because I, my dad had no respect for me whatsoever. He just didn't. I mean, I was actually living with him at this time when I was, I moved in with him when I was in like early teens because my mom couldn't handle me anymore and you were loving the street life. That sounds oh absolutely

Absolutely, I ran the streets for yeah, it was and I went to school when I wanted to you know I Had a little more structure while actually a lot more structure at my dad's but I couldn't stand it I had a problem with authority. So this is where the best and funniest decision that I made at that point in my life was to join the Marine Corps and I had a problem with authority. So, yeah. You're looking to straighten that out. I just knew I had to get away because I knew, you know, even at that young age and being so naive about the world that I was going to either end up in prison or dead.

Eventually. I mean, because I, you know, I got to tell people now there's no 401k plans being a thug. Yeah, this didn't. So Marine Corps Marine Corps where you can be a thug and it's allowed. Marine Corps Marine Corps where you can be a thug and it's allowed So you serve for 25 25 years. I actually retired from the army. You're tired for you went Marines then army Yeah, I did a hard one first. All right, and I know you served in Panama

two tours in Somalia Bosnia Afghanistan two tours in Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And Iraq. And you forgot Desert Storm. The first, very first one. Bro, all right. Well, take me through that. Well, I mean, so I made that fantastic decision to get away from all the negativity and go to be part of something a lot bigger and a lot better than what I ever imagined And there was no more good decisions after that for many years because when I went in I Wanted to be in the infantry. I

because you know Like one of the things that really shaped my decision a lot was Rambo. Yeah. Are you kidding me? The movie Rambo. Yeah. Okay. The original one.

It was the Pacific Northwest. We were climbing around in the mountains and he's just so tough and he's, but he learned it all in the military. Now Rambo was in the army. I joined the Marine Corps, but I knew the Marine Corps had like special special operations branches, right? Little little wings of their of their core. And because my dad was a Marine. So again, I'm still trying to get respect for my dad by going through some of the similar things that he'd went through, even though it was different.

He was in the 60s and I was in the 80s, but still, you know, but I wanted infantry. I wanted action. I wanted to fight, you know, because that's kind of all I knew. I didn't want to join the military and sit behind a desk. Hey, I don't even, you know, I couldn't even comprehend that, but I had to go in open contract. There was no guarantee for me because I went in with the drug waiver.

Did you really? Yeah, because they, well they don't even have those anymore. But I went in with the drug waiver, admitting that I smoked marijuana three times. Three times on Saturday. Yeah. The four noon. Yeah. Yeah.

By lunch. Yeah. Yeah. By lunch. But, but, uh, so I had to go and open contract, which basically means is they put you where they need you. And I was like, oh my gosh, please, please, please, anything but a baker. That's an actual job in the Marine Corps, a baker. Here, why don't you do that? Oh, man. That time to cook the donuts. I had to pack my bags and just left.

I know. Not doing that. But I lucked out. Got in combat arms. And I loved it. I found a family. Even though I... Where'd you do bootcamp at?

Parasile. Parasile. Got joined in Cincinnati, so that was, yeah, east of the Mississippi. And where's your first deploy- I guess, station or deployment? I don't know the right words. After I was done with all my training, I ended up in Okinawa, Japan for a year, which was the beginning to the end of my first marriage. I was 18, I already got married.

Lovely. Yeah, exactly. And hard lesson learned. First letter I got when I was in Okinawa, the first letter I had received was from my wife, telling me she's pregnant. I'm not going home. And they actually allowed me to, when the baby was born, I told her, I said, okay, you need to notify the Red Cross when you go into labor, and then that way they didn't get a hold of me.

Well, I was coming back from Korea because we did an operation in South Korea. And when I got back, they allowed me to make a phone call. It's like jail. Yeah, I mean, well, I could have made a phone call, but I'd had to pay for it. This is when I could go up to like the battalion headquarters and make a phone call out, right? They said, oh, we'll hook you up with a phone call, man. Really?

Really? I got a kid, man. Seriously. The the the hard thing about that is is that in you know, yes, we are divorced and there was good reason. But to be honest, I don't business being married, of course, that age. But it was the fact that Marine Corps always came first. Always. So would you see your first action? First time I got shot at was actually in the Philippines. The Philippines?

I didn't think anything was going on in the 80s in the Philippines. Corazon Aquino took over power from the Marcos regime. Yeah. And this is what started my whole... Was this over some shoes? I'm just kidding. No, but I know the story. What about Mel DeMarpe's without the shoes?

She had so many pairs. She could have like, gave a whole village like her, you know, shoes. Right. But there was a communist uprising when she took over power. They had always been there, but they were kind of stifled. And then they decided to start rising up. So we went there as advisors. I had no business being it.

My name got put on a list and it was a mistake. I should never been on this list, but it's what started everything for me. Because I'm, I was like 20 years old. What are you at this time, right? An E3, Lance Corporal. Yep. I had no business going. Who am I going to advise? Right? Right. I got put on this list, man. And I was off and then when I got there, you know, there was there was because at that time there's a lot of, you know, security secrecy and all that stuff. And

so, well, you're here, you got read in. Make the best of it. And I remember it was funny because we were actually walking through with the Filipino Marines going through the jungles and doing patrols. Right. They were called harassment patrols. I've never been to your house. I've never been on your property. I'm going to come, not knowing anything, and I'm gonna harass you.

You see? How's that gonna work? Yeah, exactly. You see how that works? Yeah. And yeah, I remember we, and they didn't try to hurt anybody, I don't think, because nobody got shot, but they made us hunker down.

I remember I was 20, yeah, I was 20, and I remember I became 20. Yeah, I was 20 and I remember I I became one with a tree and I Think I peed a little am I gonna lie Yeah What about the adrenaline? Hmm. It was like

It's like a person smokes crack it was like first hit It's weird. It was like a person's most crack. It was like first hit. It's weird. I've had. Folks that I've talked to that have served that have said it frightens you. And it excites you. And it's a weird adrenaline rush that you really can't understand until you've been there.

But in some guys that lights a fire. Yeah. I instantly became addicted. To the military, to the adrenaline, to the old thing. The whole thing. And now, a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, I really hope you'll consider becoming a premium member at normalfolks.us.

Y'all, the Army has 28 premium members right now, and we're setting an initial goal of getting 100 premium members. I hope you'll be open to joining us. Why? Because by becoming one for $10 a month or $1,000 a year, you'll be open to joining us. Why? Because by becoming one for ten bucks a month or a thousand dollars a year you can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes, a yearly group call, and even a one-on-one call with me. You're so lucky. But frankly guys, premium memberships help us to

grow the army that our country desperately needs right now. So I hope you'll think about it. We'll be right back. John Stewart is back in the host chair at The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Laura VanderKam. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer and course creator. We are two working parents who, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week,

we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing.

From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon, he ordered her to do this impossible thing,

he threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might, throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty, tiny slipper on a large, ungainly foot. In the Grimm brothers' version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's

a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's, they will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm.

Listen to the deep dark woods on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Where were you when you discovered a mass grave? Oh, that was in Bosnia. So tell me about that. So my team, we were actually there to, our first priority was to capture the war criminals. Milosevic, Karatej and some of those other guys, right? To control them, put them, we had a base, it was an Eagle base, it was in Tuzla, Tuzla, Basia.

And we had a base within a base. That was a secure base. It was basically Tuzla, Tuzla, Basia and we had a base within a base. That was a secure base. It was basically a jail. What we would do is we would capture them, hold on to them until somebody from the Hague came and picked them up and took them for trial. That was our first priority. We never did get any of those guys. We actually ended up catching a couple of Al-Qaeda guys.

In Basia? Yeah. Because during the Civil War, you have to under, even though it wasn't a religious war, you have to understand the Bosnians were primarily Muslim and the Serbians were primarily Christian Orthodox. It wasn't a holy war. No. But it was very much a Christian versus Muslim thing. Well, the media made it that way. Okay. Yeah. Well, the media made it that way. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I've read. Yeah. And that's the problem. It really wasn't, it was land and it was who controlled what, which really, you know. But it was violent and nasty as hell. It was very nasty. It was very nasty.

It brought back memories from World War II, especially with captured Bosnians, man. It was like concentration camps. Our second, or my second priority was PR because I don't know. People tell me that I don't know how to identify it, but people tell me I have a lot of charisma. Great. So, yeah, which was good for me on the weekend when it comes to picking up women, that was right. That was always, you know, you can cut any of this, man.

It's cool. I'm gonna keep it a whole thing. I don't know. But, you know, I mean, yeah, I used to, you know, I used it a lot. But they set me up for these radio interviews. And I had an interpreter who was a Bosnia Muslim, not a practicing Muslim.

She was Muslim by birth, that was it. Cultural. Yeah, cultural. She was very much a young European girl in her 20s. Born to some Muslim parents. Exactly, exactly. But I hated her. But you'd never know that if you saw us together.

You hated. I hated her. I hated because she was Muslim. I saw it as a thing, right? And I'll get into, I'll explain that a little bit in a second. But we come up with this thing because, you know, I'll talk and I'll explain that a little bit in a second. But we come up with this thing because I'll talk and I'll just keep going. Well, she has to interpret.

So we would end up putting our hands on the table and we'd hold hands. And she squeezed my hand when she wanted me to shut up. So she could interpret. So she could catch up. Yeah, and then squeeze it again when it was okay for me to talk again. It was a great method, but of course,

I got teased about it a lot. I was like, man, I grow a little under me. So about that was a funny story. It's not, no, it was not a funny story. It was nothing funny about it. Let's touch on that mass grave first. So the powers to be whoever it was had discovered a mass grave. 250 odd remains.

I worry that mass grave is not a great enough illustration. And I've wondered this. I guess they take a track or a backhoe and dig a massive hole. Pretty much. And they execute people. Yeah. And some are clothed. they execute people. Yeah. And some are clothed, some are not. Right. And that's what was in the grave. You could see where some of them, there was clothes

to the skeletons. But I mean. Had they uncovered it? Had it been covered and they uncovered it? Yeah, I don't know how they, yeah, I don't know anything about how it got discovered. I have not a clue distinct. No, not really Not really that where we was that kind of stunky anyway because it's a lot of rural area. Did but did you? Look man You take 99% of the population you walk them up to the edge of a hole with 250 in the population, you walk them up to the edge of a hole with 250 bodies in it that have been some mutilated, probably some tortured, all or most executed, some close, some not, some in certain levels of decay.

Most people are going to be throwing up, hide their eyes, freaking out. How did it affect you? I didn't care. There was this international CSI team that was there, right? Collecting data and they were, it was pretty neat to watch them work, you know, the stuff that they were doing. Were they trying to identify the bodies? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're all Muslim. They're all from the Muslim side of the scene. Yeah, yeah. I think it's safe to say they were. Yeah. Hey, because the actual village itself was a Serbian populated village. Got it. See the Serbs actually, some Serbs actually live in Bosnia and they have like their own villages, right?

And the, I guess she was in charge or whatever, really nice looking African British woman. And I'm there. I got my guys, I already put a perimeter around nobody in because we didn't want any of the Serbs coming in to mess with what was going on. We didn't want them to mess with any of the workers that were doing what they were doing. So I said, all my guys out made a perimeter and I stayed in the center with the Humvee, the radio. And you know, I had all my, as we call it,

Battle Rattle. I had my M4 right up here and you know, and and then she comes up to me and I just lit a cigarette and she goes, it's so hard to understand how people can do this to each other. And I took a drag of my cigarette and it blew out the smoke and I says, not really. She goes, what do you mean? They're all Muslim. That's the way I felt. Which comes into play.

Everybody knew me knew I didn't like Muslims. I did not let it affect my job. And my interpreter, Sarah, I took care of her because she took care of us. She was very good. She took care of us. She kept us out of trouble, which was a full-time job just with me. And I was not going to allow anything to happen to her while she's with me. We were in the chow hall hall talking me and some other NCOs. We were talking and They they confronted me with my hatred They said man, you got to quit hating on these people so much

And I said why? They're all evil man And he says, well, what about syrup man you like syrup I said, why? They're all evil, man. And he says, oh, what about Sarah, man? You like Sarah? I said, I do like Sarah. But she's still got to go. And if it comes time to do it, I'll

try to be there to do it myself. I'll just put a nine to the back of her head. She won't feel nothing. But she's got to go. Why? Because she's Muslim. Why? That was my only reason she's Muslim.

That was it. But was it that all you'd seen is videos of people's head getting chopped off and all this other stuff and you equated any Muslim to that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you were programmed. But I took it to another level because you know a lot of people try to point their finger at the military. They put this hate in me. Right. They did not put this hate in me. The military is too busy. They ain't got time

to create haters. Okay. They're creating killers. Well yes. But that's what they're supposed to do. But honestly, a civilized society may not want to admit it, but the inconvenient truth is we're all safer because guys like you are on the wall. It is a quandary. It really is. It is a quandary, but I'll be honest with you. I sleep better at night knowing it. Well, and that's true. And that's why we are afforded things in this country that we have. But we also don't want those people who we hold in high esteem and we reserve the highest honors of honor for like the Medal of Honor and things like that to also hate. No. And so it's this weird line that. Listen, man, I know the rest of your story and the rest of our listeners need to stick with us

and they'll get to the redemption in a little bit. But it is uncomfortable for me to know that you had an M4 strapped to you and were serving our country and had no empathy for 250 victims of murder who was willing to put a nine to his own interpreter's head simply because she was Muslim. That is hard to hear. It used to be really hard to talk about. Now I feel a need to. We'll get to that.

Yeah. So was that, that was before Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah. So you're just getting tuned up, bro. John Stuart is back in the host chair at the Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment,

politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm.

I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life.

Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon. He ordered her to do this impossible thing, he threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty tiny slipper on a large ungainly foot.

In the Grim Brothers version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grims, they will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue.

Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm. Listen to the deep dark woods on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, we went on operation April 15, 2004. Okay. So Bosnia, 9-11, 9-11 hadn't happened yet. Oh yeah, it did. It had happened, I'm sorry on the time. 2001. 2001.

So did 9-11 lead you to hate the Muslim community or is it already there? I Don't know I That's one question. I have been asked since I think first time I ever appeared in front of somebody What caused you to hate so much? Honestly don't know I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. It wasn't 9-11, you know? For you, it really wasn't. It wasn't. It was for a lot of people. Well, yeah, yeah. And it also ended up being a huge population booster for Islam, because, especially throughout America and the Western world, because this happened and people are like,

America in the Western world because this happened and people are like, who are these Muslims? I need to figure this thing out. I need to learn about that. And they did and they ended up converting, which we'll get to that. But okay. So Bosnia, not 11 2004. Now you are how long in the military at this point? Oh gosh.

I had a two year break between Marine Corps and army, uh, which would, I'm so lucky. I'm still alive for that. But I mean, you're a veteran. Yeah. And are you a sergeant at this time? Probably. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

All right. So I was a sergeant in Bosnia up until the time I became a staff sergeant. Every rank I had, I had at least twice Meeting you got busted down Yeah, the character the charisma. Yeah, so You leave Bosnia you've got this unbelievable hatred for Muslims. I also believe you must have had a really deep seated love for your country.

It was everything. I tell people that for lack of a better example, flag was my cross. Hmm. I was a diehard nationalist. I'm a white nationalist. You know, that's the thing because I didn't grow up with color racism. Well, I did. My grandfather, big time racist. But I always thought and I would always, even as a young kid would say, why is he acting

like this? You know, he wanted to spank me one time for playing with, as he called, I hate to say this word. I'll say it once once colored kids in the neighborhood We lived in a predominantly black neighborhood who else am I playing with right I But you know kids they don't see that stuff anyway, and I always grew up remembering that man gosh, man, I love my Paul man, but

He was ignorant. I mean, he just was about so much, man. And I didn't care what color you were, I never did. I just care where you were from. And if you're not from here, I wanna know why you're here and when are you leaving? You were that devout like you said yeah, no I was across yeah, it was and you were ready to die for it I used to at night when I would be on deployment. I

a lot of times I would just set and I would it was almost like a prayer almost to me I wouldn't really say a prayer, but it was almost like a prayer. It was like a prayer type mindset. I take the Flag off my shoulder and just sit there and stare at it sit there and stare at it Like man, this is this is everything devoutly committed. Yeah to Core everything devoutly committed. Yeah. To core country, the mission, your men. Yeah. Okay.

So now you end up in Afghanistan with that mentality that baked into you. Your hate for Muslims, not 11s happened. I mean, you're probably locked and loaded. Yeah. I, and I was happy because now I can actually rid the world of these Muslims, whereas in Bosnia, I was more or less almost protecting them, really, right? And I like that, never set good with me. When I made that statement to that British lady. Yeah, we got relieved in place. You were no longer the voice of the army, right? No, they sent my team back and my team didn't get any kind

of, but I took a lot of heat. I had to go talk to the Sergeant Major. And Sergeant Major's like, it was funny in Major's like, you know, it was, it was funny in a way because, you know, I go in his office, you know, Sergeant became reporting his order, Sergeant Major, he just went off. But my cursing, I mean, every other word, well, military language is a little different too. Hey, hey, hey, you know, I tell people, I said, man, I said, I had to learn how to talk when I come to civilian world because, you know, if you don't, if you don't put the F word

at least once in a sentence is an incomplete sentence. And this guy was just going off, man. He said, shut that door, slam the door. Sit down, Mac. Yeah. Want some coffee, man? Hey, you can't be saying that stuff It it something when I was reading this I wondered You weren't the lone Ranger, bro. There were other people that felt that way, right? I

Don't know of any really. I mean it would be very naive of me to say no But I yeah, I didn't know of any. So it wasn't openly discussed. Oh, no, no. You know, because it and a lot of there's also Muslims serving in the United States military. Right. Well, I mean, I didn't I didn't know of any. Not that there weren't any, but I didn't know of any.

And and so it was it was kind of, you know, I had created my own little world and I was very respected in the middle. Even when I would get busted, I'd still be respected, you know, because what I got busted for usually was overall was a good thing. It just went against the rules. It happens, right?

We had a saying is I'd rather be judged by 12 and carried by 6. Got it. So, but of course that didn't really apply to me anyway, because really to be honest with you, I was looking for a way to die. My goal, my destiny was to die in combat because when you come back to this country and a flag drape coffin, you are forever known as a hero. It don't matter. It don't matter what you did, how you did it.

You're a hero. Period. Done. Period. And that's what really fueled my hatred when I got injured. And as I even say today, they kicked me out. Well, let's get to that. So you're in Afghanistan or Iraq?

I don't know which one. Afghanistan. So I went from Bosnia, which is actually another story too. We went on an operation there April 15, 2004. And it was an actual mission. We got intel that we were going to get Milosevic. By the way, his code name was Elvis. No kidding.

Yeah, because it was there. Well, the Memphis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was the third guy through the door. Really? And he wasn't there.

But a priest and the priest's son was there. Well, they got up from the table, pulling pistols at us. Well, that doesn't work out well. We got to do what we got to do, right? So operations over. And one funny tidbit, this got me in a lot of trouble. Oh my gosh. But of course, you know, smoke's cleared, everything okay.

Look for Intel. You know, is there any hard drives, any laptops, any paperwork laying around? We're gonna scoop it all up, take it back, let somebody who cares look at it, right? And I had to do it. I got on the radio and said Elvis has left the building. Yep, did you really do that?

Whoops, yeah, no, I wasn't a whoops. I knew what I was doing, but I had to say I had to say it man I had to say it anyway, so we went back the Serbian government press charges, pressed murder charges against the team I was with and myself, right? So the American government and their infinite wisdom said, hey, you guys are going to Afghanistan. You're getting out of Bosnia. So we went right to Afghanistan and they said they could tell the Serbs they're not even here. Right? It was really bothers me because I would like to go back to Bosnia, but I don't know if that's still hanging out there.

Man, I'll warn out for your rise. Yeah, I don't know if that's still hanging out there, man. But so yeah, we went to Afghanistan and that's when I got into, well, actually I came back to the States for some training and I will mention this, I won't talk about it, but I will mention this and I got trained to do interrogations. Got it. Yeah.

That's the same time that the Cuban jail was starting to get going, right? The Cuban jail? Guantanamo Bay. Guantanamo Bay. Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm thinking Cuban jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a jail in Cuba. I couldn't remember the name of the bay Yeah, Guantanamo Bay. So, you know, and it really was wasn't the enhanced interrogation techniques Yeah, we had to do all that. Yeah, we learned that and and and what a lot of people don't understand is that in order to You were taught how to do it Because it was done to you. Oh You were taught how to do it because it was done to you. Oh That's how you learned. Yeah, which is not unlike a lot like you know your police department, right? Pepper spray you get sprayed right stun devices you get stunned. That's what that's you know and waterboarding You got waterboarding you got waterboard. How bad is it?

It's different. It's different. It's well. No, I mean, I mean, it's it's horrible. It is literally horrible. But the mindset, see, here's the thing. I'm in school. You know, they're not going to kill you. Yeah. This is going to end. You know, when I went through a seer school, which is about, you know, survival and evasion and all that stuff, the thing is that you will get captured during that. You cannot evade. These people know what they're doing.

You're going to get captured, right? In the school. In the school. And then you're going to learn how to deal with being captured. I showed back. I showed up after a week back to my command with a black eye and a bustle lip. Wow. It was a ride of passage.

It was an honorable thing. But even though I went through all that, I never told anybody anything. Because why? I knew it was going to end. This is not every day for me. This is not my life. I know this is going to end. This is not every day for me. This is not my life. I know this is going to end. So bear down, take the hits and go back and hold your head high.

No big deal. But now you're trying to. But now I'm trying to quote trained. Yeah. So and I guess in your mind,boarding a Muslim you didn't care. Oh Gosh, no, no it matter fact. I remember several times when there was others that would pull me off of people and It's It's really sad that I even have a memory of myself like this, but I enjoyed what I

did and it hurts to this day. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Mack and I promise that you do not want to miss part two. It's now available to listen to. As his hatred gets transformed by love. Together guys, we can change the country, but it starts with you. I'll see you in part two. One of the best shows of the year according to Apple, Amazon and Time is back for another

round. We had a big bear of a man who was called Mal Evans, he's on roadie, and he's coming back on the plane and he said, will you pass the salt and pepper? And I miss herding. I said, what? So I took pepper. Listen to season two of McCartney, a life in lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the Scopes Monkey Trial to OJ Simpson, trials have always made us reflect on the world we live in.

I'm Mira Hayward and my podcast History on Trial will explore fascinating trials from American history. Join me in revealing the true story behind the headlines and discover how the legal battles of the past have shaped our present. Listen and subscribe to History on Trial. Now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This past season on my podcast, Here's the Thing. I spoke with more actors, musicians, policy makers, and so many other fascinating people, like jazz-basist Christian McBride. Jazz is based on improvisation, but there's very much a form to it. Most pop songs have a very strict structure, verse-verse course, whereas jazz, you get a melody with a set of chord changes. You play that melody with those chord changes. Now, once you do that, you have a conversation based on that melody and those chord changes. So it's kind of like giving someone a topic and say, okay, talk about

this. And comedian and actor Caroline Ray, you're most comfortable when you're on stage. Probably. You really love it. Yeah, I feel like I always think my standup is a dinner party. I know what I'm going to make. You're my guest. I don't know what I always think my stand-up is a dinner party. I know what I'm going to make. You're my guest. I don't know what's going to happen.

But the thing about stand-up that amazes me is it's only going to happen in that moment in time, even if we film it. It's never going to be what it feels like live.