An Army of Normal Folks - Richard McKinney: I Was Going To Bomb Their Mosque, But Then They Loved Me (Pt 2)

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Veteran Richard McKinney hated Muslims and after returning from Iraq, he couldn't stand seeing "the enemy" in his community of Muncie, Indiana. He visited their mosque to justify his planned bombing of it, but their love for him completely transformed his heart. Ultimately, Richard converted to Islam and even served as the mosque’s President. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal folks and we continue now with part two of our conversation with Mack McKinney right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage

work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon, he ordered her to do this impossible thing, he threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might, throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty tiny slipper on a large, ungainly foot.

In the Grimm brothers version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us. They stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's. They will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist.

They're going to continue. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the brothers Grimm. Listen to the deep dark woods on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good song. The Johnny Carson theme, right? Hey, who wrote that?

Skip, who'd you think? It's your buddy. Hi, everyone. I'm Paul Anko. And I'm Skip Bronson. And what happens when two old friends take their decades of experience in the business and entertainment roles and sit down with our buddies? You get our way, a brand new show from My Heart Podcast where we chop it up with our

pals about everything under the sun. Hear about Michael Buble's entrance into show business and get business insight from Mark Burnett. Find out what scares my son-in-law Jason Bateman and discover the bragging rights that come with beating Michael Jordan at golf. Together, we know just about everybody, including sitting presidents. So join us as we ask the questions they've not been asked before. Tell it like it is and even sing a song or two.

This is our podcast and we're going to do it our way. Listen to our way on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. So, Iraq is where you got blowed up? Yeah, we went in. So, I was doing interrogations and I begged. I begged to go on a mission, go outside to wire. Please let me go. Oh, because you're stuck behind doing interrogations and you want to be out in the field.

I want to be on the field. I'm going to be on the field. It's like, you know, this is this is great, man, but this is like. This is like punching a heavy bag. It's not going to hit your back, right? And it gets boring. And they finally let me go. They gave me a team. We worked up.

We had Intel. There was going to be a, an al-Qaeda lieutenant at such and such building. We're going to put it over the head. Bring him in. Right. Okay. So it's a big operation. Just bring them in me in a live or dead or did you want them alive?

Well, yeah, you want it in town. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we got to the building. I mean, and this is a big rock. This is this isn't just like five guys. This is like, you know, you have a security team that actually cordons off like a two block radius, then you have an extraction team, which is also your delivery team. But your extraction team, which is waiting on the street so you can you know

High-tail it out and then the assault team which was us and we went into the building we went into the building manager was nobody there They had a bunch of stuff there was laughed. Oh, we got we well it doesn't matter because we never brought it back, but There was a there was a lot of intel there I But there was a lot of intel there. I went back up on the second floor as my team was gathering all the information on the first floor. Because we had this big hole that was blown through the wall that looked out onto the street. And it's so easy for me to talk about this because I have no memory of what happened after this. I to this day, I don't remember. I like to joke about it because of that, because I don't have any memory of it.

No physical pain, no. Oh, no, I have a lot of physical pain. Well, yeah, that moment's pain. No, no, it was like, I don't even, I can't even recall hearing a boom. I just remember looking out onto the street and being up higher, I could look around and make sure every, you know, we're not going to walk out into something, right? Because we're safe in this building. We leave, we're not safe anymore.

So I want to make sure that me and my team are good to go. That's the last thing I remember. I woke up several days later with a chaplain sitting next to my bed. I come to and I was like, what the hell? You know, I'm looking, I know I'm in a hospital, right? And I, then I got kind of mad because I'm like, I didn't die. Right. Did my whole destiny about coming back and flagged Ray Coffin. I just I'm like, oh, crap, man.

Seriously, grabbing legs. Are you wondering? I did that once before in Desert Storm. I got a piece of shrapnel in my head up here. But yeah, I did that once before. But but like, am I am I all intact? Seriously, I didn't hit me for I'm just I'm just kind of, but like, am I all intact? Seriously.

That didn't hit me at first. I'm just kind of like, oh man. And I hear a noise because the chaplain jumped up. And I look over and I see him and I see his uniform. He's got cross right here on his chest. And so great a chaplain, that's wonderful. And he looks at me and says, Sardin, he says, I gotta tell you something.

You are one lucky individual. me says sardine. He says I gotta tell you something you are one lucky individual He says you died I said what? They said yeah when they brought you in they were treating you and you flatlined and the doctor brought you back It's like I'm trying to think and I'm like nope I got no stories of bright lights or anything. So I was far as I know, I was just asleep. And he says, he says, you have somebody watching over you. Definitely do. And I says, sir, I gotta tell you, no disrespect to your position in life, but he don't want me. I'm like Highlander up in here.

I can't die. I've tried. And the chaplain's just looking at me like, oh my gosh. Man. And then people started coming in telling me that they're, you know, I'm being processed for medical retirement. I already had over 20 years. What happened to you?

What was wrong with your body? Oh, just, I mean, just scarring. I got some shrapnel scars on my left calf and my back just was obliterated. My shoulder is just dislocated. It never really healed right. So what happened? Was there a bomb in there or the shot at Ms. Luncheon? Oh yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, I mean, I get you got blown up. There was an IED underneath the building.

And it detonates. So it was almost like we were set up in a way. Did someone else step on it? Oh, no. They remotely activated it from a phone once you got to a spot. Probably a phone. Yeah. Yeah, probably a phone.

So they were watching you somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Did you fly off the second floor? Well, so this, this youngster came in, he came in to see a friend in the hospital there. It was like a mass hospital, right? He come in to see a friend. He saw me and he's like, Sarge. He said, my God, man. He says, are you OK? I says, I don't know, man, they're kicking me out. And he says, brother, he says, you don't even know. He says, man, the only thing missing from you was a cape

because you flew straight across the street. That's what he told me. Like I said, I like to I like to make a joke of it because it's I have no memory of it. And I'm very thankful. I'm very thankful I don't because I to make a joke of it because I have no memory of it and I'm very thankful. I'm very thankful I don't because I probably have a nervous breakdown, but I have no memory of it. But it messed me up for a while and they come in and they start telling me about the processing

for medical retirement. I was like, bullshit. We're not doing this. I'm going back to Iraq. And they looked at me and they were like, like it was like they were military, but they were like the hospital social workers, right and It's a certain why you want to go back to Iraq I Looked them dead in the eyes. I'm not done killing Muslims yet If I wasn't getting out before I said that I was

Now when I after I said that Because they just like looked at me and they're like oh And then he walked out Yeah, next thing you know, I got a guy sitting across from me with his legs crossed going so how's that make you feel? Sit down on my couch. Yeah. Yeah So now you're out. Now I'm out. And you're home.

And you're back in Muncie. Muncie, which was never really my home originally anyway. Okay, but you're in Muncie, why? Yeah. Well, I, because it was my home record, it was a mailing address for a lot of years. I had joined the Army from there when I was trying to work, you know, I had no job skills. President. There's really not much of a job in the United States for killing Muslims. Well, we the teams, we would all say it sounds like what you were good at. Yeah. Yeah. We

tell people are we used to talk amongst ourselves as man, I said, I don't know what I'm gonna do when I get out. I said, there's only know what I'm gonna do when I get out. I said, there's only three things I could really do anything. I'd be a hit man for the mob, a pimp, or a drug dealer. I don't really have any other skills. And I was like, that's so true. Because I had no education, I had a GD. I got a GD when I was in the Marine Corps. They made me because I could have cared less.

And I have no job skills. So what am I doing? I'm 25 years old working as a laborer. Work for a commercial roofing company. Hard work, right? As a laborer. And I was on that roof and I'm like shoveling stuff over the side into the big, big trash bin they have and I'm like listening to the foreman

talk down to me and I'm like, did you only know me because like two years before that, I mean, I was a bodyguard for President Bush when he came to Somalia. He lost the election to Clinton and He 25 Marines got picked to be his Basically bodyguards of the official title is bullet catcher as all was you know cuz he's in a war zone, right? But still still and you're gonna talk down to me man Redneck piece of trash. That's what I thought. I walked right off the job site into the Army Recruiser's office.

And that's when you joined the army. And said, hey, man, when's the bus leave, dude? I'm out of here. And I went back on my duty. But now you're 45-ish. And in Muncie, you spent 25 years developing a very unique skill set that doesn't translate back to the states. Nope.

What are you doing? So nothing. But you're hating Muslims. But I'm hating Muslims. And that's the first time I noticed. I mean, they had always been there, but I never noticed them before. And here they are everywhere. At the Walmart, the Walmart, oh, at Applebee's.

My wife at the at the at the time, she would get so nervous going to go and shopping. Your wife then's name was Dana. Tell us about Emily. Oh, man. I was introduced to Emily when she was four years old. Her dad's this is Dana's daughter. Yeah. Her dad's a floor national. He's from Mexico and he got in a lot of trouble here. So he was deported with basically a sticker on his butt saying do not return. Right. So she didn't have a dad. And me and her just became like best buddies.

To hear her talk about you is phenomenal. There's a short 30 minute documentary about what we're about to discuss in your life. We've caught it up to that point. The name of the documentary is Stranger at the Gates, right? Stranger at the Gate. And it was an Academy Award nominee nominee. When I watched it

and I listened to Emily speak about you, she revered you. You were her dad. Oh, yeah. And she was just a pup at this time, right? Four, five, six, seven years old. Yeah. And you're her. You take her riding. You take her driving where you are.

She is and you were. You were her father. Yeah. And you cherish this girl. Oh, my gosh, more than anything. And given your unique skill set, anybody hears a harm, harms a hair on her head. I imagine you could have done more than water board. Gladly go back to jail. I mean, I've been to jail before, but. Gladly return. Gladly

return for an extended stay. I have no problem with that. And at the same time, you're carrying this hate for Muslims and frankly, this this innate disgust that your destiny was stolen from you. Because now you're alive, walking around the United States. And you didn't go out the way you thought you were. I had no purpose. Except for being this little girl's dad. Except for being a little girl's dad.

except for being this little girl's dad. Except for being a little girl's dad. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management,

organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon,

he ordered her to do this impossible thing, he threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might, throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty, tiny slipper on a large, ungainly foot.

In the Grimm brothers' version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's, they will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue.

Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm. Listen to the deep dark woods on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good song. The Johnny Carson theme, right? Hey, who wrote that? Skip, who do you think it's your buddy? Hi everyone. I'm Paul Anka and I'm Skip Bronson. And what happens when two old friends take their decades of experience in the business and entertainment roles and sit down with our buddies.

You get our way, a brand new show from My Heart Podcast where we chop it up with our pals about everything under the sun. Hear about Michael Buble's entrance into show business and get business insight from Mark Burnett. Find out what scares my son-in-law Jason Bateman and discover the bragging rights that come with beating Michael Jordan at golf. Together we know just about everybody, including sitting presidents. So join us as we ask the questions they've not been asked before, tell it like it is, and even sing a song or two.

This is our podcast and we're going to do it our way. Listen to Our Way on the iHeart Radio app radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. So I had come up with a plan. I found out that these Muslims, So I had come up with a plan. I found out that these Muslims. There's a lot of them here. Oh, God, no. Uh-uh. So I had went and found out where their building was.

And at that time, it was actually in a house that was in a neighborhood that was right off Ball State University is the is the university there in Muncie. It was right off campus, right? And I looked at it and I was like- And this is their mosque, I guess? Yeah. I don't know what you call it.

Well, yeah, yeah, mosque. Okay. But this was- Their house of worship. Yeah, this was their house of worship. It was basically just a house in a neighborhood, right? And I looked around and I was like, I can't do nothing here, man. This is not a, a, a, a, a agreeable option because of all of the Americans around here.

And that's the way I looked at it. Did you feel like they were a threat? Oh, absolutely. You felt like the Muslims that were at Walmart, at Applebee's and hanging out this house at their place of worship and were going to school with your daughter. Yeah. Were a risk. You literally thought they were looking just for ways to covertly murder you and your family

and Americans. Absolutely. And destroy your country. Absolutely. Which is the only thing that mattered to you in the you and your family and Americans. Absolutely. And destroy your country. Absolutely. Which is the only thing that mattered to you in the world was your country and your daughter. Yep. And you look back on it now, and that is the most perturbed thinking on the face of the planet, but that is where you were.

Yeah. Yeah. So you come up with a plan. Um, I had, you know, because of all my experiences I I knew how to make an IED. It's really very simple, you know a bomb. Yeah, and I I don't I don't speak of it more than that usually because the FBI had me sign paperwork that I would not disclose What was involved in the bomb? FBI had me sign paperwork that I would not disclose what was involved in the bomb. We're not going to talk about how to make it. I don't think there's any, I don't think that part of the story does anybody any good,

but let's just say so after 25 years, you could make a bomb. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I had started putting it together over two years with the intent with the intent to detonate it somewhere with these Muslims. I couldn't do it here because of this house that's in a neighborhood of too many Americans around. Right. So the risk to others was just too substantial.

I wasn't going to do that. Then they moved and they got they took over an office building that was kind of out in the middle of nowhere off the beaten path. Perfect. It came a target. I got it now. So when I actually went into the mosque that one day, the bomb was done. I just needed time, a time and date, which I'd already decided was going to be during Ramadan, which is the holy month, because it's kind of like Catholics in Christmas Mass, right? Everybody's there.

So, there was the biggest opportunity for the greatest about a carnage and damage on that day. It was going to be a Friday afternoon during the month of Ramadan because I knew they would all be there. And you were going to plant this thing at their place and blow them up. I already had a place for it, everything. It was just a matter of just waiting. You realize that that would make you no different than the men who flew the planes into the World Trade Center. I know that now.

But you didn't see yourself as a terrorist. You saw yourself as a patriot. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you find it at all ironic that one of your memories of your grandfather was wearing you out for hanging out with a quote. And I'm quoting what your grandfather said, colored kid. And your greatest visceral reaction as an adult was when a Muslim person sat across from

your daughter. Do you find it interesting that from a very young age, that idea was somewhere in the deepest restlessness of your brain probably baked into you. I didn't even, I didn't even, until I had already changed, didn't even see the irony in it all. Because it literally is the same thing. Literally is the same thing of what I thought as a little kid to what my daughter was feeling

right now. And how do you how do you process that? When I finally figured that out, I didn't even know I was kind of like I was ashamed. Well, I mean, you know, I spent a lot of time in the shame arena anyway, just dealing with my past, but it was, there was just so much shame. It was like, man, you are the dumbest individual walking upright, man. I mean, how could you not into this newly opened House of Worship for Muslims in Muncie, Indiana, and you are on part recon mission because if you're looking around, you're also seeing where the softest places for this bomb to blow up and everything else I'm assuming.

Well, I mean, I'd already had a spot picked out that was on the opposite side of the building because there were buildings over here. And I knew that they would be hit by some of the debris, but I was trying to make it as less as possible. So that would have been an acceptable collateral damage. In military planning, there was an acceptable and an unacceptable collateral damage. That would have been acceptable. So I read that when you were going off on the Muslim community, your daughter looked

at you like you were nuts and she couldn't understand why you were so angry and had so much hatred toward Muslims, no differently than you didn't understand your grandfather. Exactly. And so part of the idea of showing up at this mosque was to find out the truth about these people so that she would understand why you blew them up one day. I was looking for tangible proof.

I knew the way I felt was the right way. You knew they were murderers. Oh, I knew that. And you know they were headchoppers and you knew they were here to destroy America. That's all you knew. But you wanted to prove to her. I needed something to show her. I needed, you know, so I went there, introduced myself.

And somebody just wanted to learn a little bit more about Islam, right? Even though I come from the mindset that even today a lot of people say I've learned all I needed to learn about Islam on 9-11. But that's the way I just wanted that proof because I knew I was going to get caught. I'm like, get away with this. Are you serious? You know, I mean, you didn't care. No, I didn't I didn't because I saw it as that Patriot Patriot another chance to die for my country. I wasn't gonna get a flag-draped coffin I would not even get a military funeral because of what I did And none of that mattered I actually believe that years down the road they were gonna build statues to me I

Actually believe that in my own mind, you know? So you go in this place to, uh, so I went in there. Get the goods on them. Yeah. And I mean, and I was met with kindness and he, I remember walking in and, uh, you know, this one guy, he actually played NBA he was African-American and He was sitting on a bench and he got up in the shoe room could you take your shoes off before you go in there? And he said it took him like three minutes stand up. That's how tall he was African-american gentleman He recently passed and it was a very sad moment for the community, but he played NBA basketball in the seventies.

He dealt with a lot of racism himself, right? Because of that. But, you know, he looked at me and smiled and he says, can I help you? Cause he knew I was like, why am I here? You know, I, yeah, I can only imagine this. I can only imagine this 25 years of being basically a rugged jar head, walking into a place that he hates and he despises everybody in it. You couldn't have been walking in with a big old charismatic smile on your face. It was rough.

It was rough. In the film, people say that they could tell something was wrong, right? I'm not an actor. I, I tried, but it was hard to cover up a lot of things. Right. I tried to smile. I tried to, I shook hands. I, you know, but it was rough.

And then I got introduced to the Southern African-American gentleman closer to my own age. He's a little bit younger than me. And he's the one that actually handed me a Quran. I know in the film it says, BB handed me a Quran, but it was actually him. He says, hey, he says, you want to learn about Islam? I want you to take this home and I want you to read it.

Come back and find me when you got questions. I tell Muslims that today. I said, if ever anybody comes up to you and they want to learn, they want to know about Islam, hand them a Quran and tell them to come back and find you when they got questions. Right? Because that's the best advice in the world. And I was overjoyed at this point.

Because now you got the document that's approved. I could have went to the bookstore and got a Quran. I never even thought of that. Never even thought of that. I'm like, I got the holy grail to evil They just handed it to and on top of that they're gonna explain it to me It was like Hilarious I'm like I'm like this is oh I couldn't even imagine

I'm gonna prove to my daughter that blowing these folks up and terrorizing them and murdering them is the right thing to do. So I jumped into it, man. I jumped into it. I, I, I, that was ended up becoming my passion. I, I'm going to read this book and I'm going to, I'm going to highlight, underline all kinds of stuff, man. You thought I was in a Bible study or something, right?

And I'm just, I'm, I'm going out. I'm going back to the mosque. It wasn't Ramadan yet. I was there more often than some of the Muslims were. And I'm going back. But hey, man, what about this? This don't sound too cool. Then they explained to me and it's like, well, I was contextualizing a lot. And they would explain, okay, here's what happened before and here's what happened after and that's the reason this is right. Oh That's not a lot different the Old Testament. Okay, I got you I got you okay And I go read some more and I come back and you know and then finally, you know with the other stuff that I had going on in my own subconscious or whatever I

Know it's a change was happening and and one of the biggest things on the surface was the fact that through reading this book and spending time with these people You know, it's the same thing with all religions, right? We have a text and we try to live our life as close to that text as we can right It's impossible to be a hundred percent because we're human and we're way. And the first 25 years text for you was probably the Marine Handbook. Absolutely. Absolutely. He's be able to recite stuff by heart. Not a problem. So I'm reading this and you know, yeah, there's some things in there that are questionable and it's like, oh, okay, well, they got explained to me and then I keep reading. It's like, there's not really any hate in this book. And there's not.

It's not here. You know, I'm thinking, okay, what about these people over here? The people in my community? Right. They're acting close to what it says in this. So they're actually being what would be quote unquote good Muslims, right? All of my understanding of what Islam was and how Muslims act were the ones that were shooting at me.

And I could find things in the Quran that they were doing that was un-Islamic to begin with. And I was like, Oh, so I should not be getting references about what this faith is from them, but instead from them. So that started things changing. I had never considered myself an intellectual person, but I started I started going through this. I started thinking about it and I kept reading. I kept reading. And you know, I come across passages of chapter five, 32nd verse where it says, to save one human life is as if you saved all of humanity. And I'm like, wow, wow.

But to kill or take one human life is as if you killed all humanity. So that totally blew these people away. I had no nothing for them anymore. We'll be right back. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon. He ordered her to do this impossible thing,

he threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might, throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty, tiny slipper on a large ungainly foot. In the Grimm brothers version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels.

Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's, they will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill,

the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers' Grimm. Listen to the Deep Dark Woods on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more.

We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From stories about salvation and loss. They did not love themselves enough to know their HRD status, to not pass it on to me. To dreams achieved or still yet unfulfilled.

From people who have made it. We started a hospital based violence intervention program called the IV project and it stands for interrupting violence and using young adults to those who have been left behind. But no one talks about the survivors of the gun violence and the numbers rising because the gun violence has risen. Politically, financially, emotionally, spiritually, this is where we are. This is Black Land. And one of the things that my father said to me before he passed away, it's like almost

like a prophecy. He said that I would be helping men listen to Blackland on the I hard radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast All right, I'm a Christian mm-hmm. I also like to consider myself I really Like to understand different viewpoints. I also think faith regardless of your denomination, your Christian denomination, or whether you're you subscribe to Islam or Hindu or what, I think it's a very personal thing.

So I'm a tread lightly. You can't going to tread lightly. You can't fit me, man. Well, let me say it a different way. I don't do much lightly. I'm going to tread respectfully. I know that saying I've heard it before. To take one life is to take all of humanity and to save one life is save all humanity or something like that.

It's close, right? I know I'm not quoting the Quran, but that's the gist. Uh-huh. What's the version, chapter? Uh, 532. Chapter 532. 532. 532.

The men who flew the planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, that Americans today who served there cleaning it up are still dying of cancers, some of which don't even have a name. So the 3000 odd people that died on that day are just a drop in the bucket of the people that are still dying from that event. Absolutely. And it is horrific. I know a lot of people who are Muslim, who are American Muslims, who are affected no

differently by that event than I am. Exactly. But the fact is, the people who flew those planes into those buildings were yelling, I'll log bar and subscribed to a faith that they called Islam. And what 532 says and what they did don't agree. No, they don't. I want to give you an opportunity to a largely non-Muslim audience to help me as an American and a Christian. Understand that.

And that is difficult and I appreciate you asking me that question. I really do. I'm being very serious because that that that's the kind of questions that need to be asked, right? And and and and unfortunately, there's not a lot of Muslims that are willing to go there. No, there's not. And that's also a problem. That's, respectfully, they're their own worst enemy to their faith by not going there. Just like a Christian is his own worst enemy to his faith when the over someone who's on the fence about faith and Christianity and they hear the narrative, believe like me or you're rotten hell for

the rest of your life. If that is what my faith is, we got a tough thing to sell. You know what I mean? And that is not, our faith is about love and grace and redemption and forgiveness and all of that. I do not believe that Muslims are gathered around a Quran trying to figure out how to kill the next 3,000 Americans. And I hear what you're saying about 532, but it is hard for an American Christian to know who those people were and what they were subscribed to, as well as Osama bin Laden, as well as

all that's going on across the country and in the Middle East right now. Help us, help us understand it. Sure. So, I'm not a geopolitical expert by no means. Me neither. But I do have an understanding of Christianity, which I have the utmost respect for and love. As a matter of fact, somebody asked me one time how hard it was for me to convert Christianity to Islam.

I said, well, I wasn't a Christian. And they said, what? I said, no, I was not a Christian. They said, what? I said, no, I was not a Christian. I said, I would never say I was a Christian. I said, and that's only because of my love and respect for that religion. The way I was acting, the way I was speaking, that's not Christian, you know. So yeah, so it's out of that respect for Christianity. But with the terrorists, because that's what they were, the terrorists, they are labeled as Muslims because that was the claim. Too many people came out afterwards claiming that, yes, they were Muslim, they were devout.

No, they weren't. My religion has a restriction to where I can't say somebody's not a Muslim. I can't say that. You're not allowed to judge it. Christianity has the same deal. So I'm not going to say that they weren't Muslims. I will say for the, for the simple fact that they were not in any way, anyway, shape or form acting Islamically.

They were driven brainwashed. I don't know. By greed, retribution, payback. One of the things that really got Osama bin Laden started was Desert Storm. He had told the Saudi government, because that's where he was from, and where most of the hijackers were from. Right. An American from. Right. An American ally. Yeah, I know.

I don't understand. Which a lot of people need to not forget. I do not want to get on that soapbox. But anyway, so he offered his Mujahideen, holy warriors, right? From Afghanistan to come back to Saudi Arabia or to go to Saudi Arabia where he was from to defend against Iraq, because that was Saddam's plan was to go. He was going to keep going south, right? Across Kuwait.

Yeah. And in. Yep. And... Until you guys showed up. Well, that was what hurt, you know, as I, you know, excuse my reference, but he was but hurt. He got butter. Because he wanted to defend the Holy Land because the Saudi government said, No, we got the Americans coming. It's cool.

You guys just stay there. It's all right. That's what started the whole contemplation of how to get back at America and the fact that we were infidels Which is Not even a proper term to be used in that in that statement, but and we were on the holy land Saudi Arabia's you know to holy sites in Saudi Arabia's three holy sites in Islam, one's in Jerusalem and the other two are in Saudi Arabia. And so we kind of like dirtied up the land and in his eyes, right?

He did have a lot of geopolitical interests. He was a man of means, money, and he was going to do everything he could in his mind. I don't even know what his understanding of Islam was. I have no idea. And to be honest with you, I'm not really interested because he's nobody to me. He was a bad person. I will say that. He found a way because he was a very correct charismatic person. I mean, look at what he did. You know, he was able to get people to follow along with his ideas. Even as far as giving up their own life.

That is brings back stories of John Jones, David Gresh. I was just about to say to you and to our listeners, as you're listening to this, what power, take uneducated folks and perturb a religion to make them extreme in order to carry out acts that have nothing to do with faith or religion but are more about geopolitical and social issues. And if you have your hard time getting your arms around that as a Christian American, you need to try to remember that right next to oftentimes strung up black Americans for the burning Christian cross. Yeah. And Bibles.

That is not Christianity. No. It is a perturbing of a faith. Yeah. And if you can't get your arms around that this has happened among many phase and many cultures, then you'll never understand that the people who subscribe to Islam that flew the planes into the buildings and the Pentagon are not what the vast majority of the people worshiping in mosques think or believe. Absolutely. You know, it...

But you hate Muslims. Well... I'm going to let you get to the rest of it here in a minute. But is that a fair statement, what I said? Absolutely. But you didn't know that when you showed up. Oh, gosh. And you got to cry on and you're going to prove to your daughter why blowing these folks

up is a good thing. And then people started hugging you. Yeah, I know. That was not to mention being a veteran. You know, I mean, I hug people anyway, you know, which has got me into some trouble because in Islam, we're not to shake hands or to hug women, right, that are not related to us. So I was speaking at a Holocaust museum in Chicago and Jesse Jackson's daughter came there to see me and she came up to me and just reached

out and gave me a hug. There was pictures taken. That became a total social media nightmare for me. Really? Yes. Because we call them the Halal police, right? Halal means permissible, Haram means impermissible, okay? So what was happening was Haram.

We call them the Halal police because they'll come out, oh, you can't do that. You what was happening was Haram. We call him the whole aisle police because they'll come out. Oh, you can't do that. You can't do that, brother. Uh-uh. What what do you think? And what do you think? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, man. The woman hugged me. The woman hugged me. And by the way, it was endearing and there's nothing behind it. So take a pill. Well, I did feel that way. I really did. Um, at first I, I, I became very defensive and I lashed out at some of these people. And then one person calmly explained it to me. He says, yes, of course, there was nothing meant by what you were doing, nothing at all from either person involved in that.

what you were doing, nothing at all from either person involved in that. But you're a public figure now. People look up to you, especially the young people. They see stuff like that. It confuses them. Yes, was there any harm done? No, not really. My wife knew about it. She didn't care.

And that's the only one I'd. My wife knew about it. She didn't care. And that's the only one I'd care to be upset about it, right? Because she knows. But it's how it perceived. Right. And so, you know, that's a lot of times when a woman comes towards me, you know, and I know she's going to ask to shake my hand, you know, and it's, I just put my hand up to my chest. I think I did that out there, right? Yeah, that's right. You didn't, you did. It's done as a means of respect, not disrespect.

So there's a matter of this bomb you made. So now you've found out these people in this mosque are loving decent people and you're not going to explode them anymore. But the FBI shows up at your apartment. Yeah. If I can, let me go back a little bit to explain the whole concept of what you were thinking because of the ignorance, right? Surrounded by not only Muslims with their own faith, but Christians also. Back in the Middle Ages, right? A large part of Christendom was ignorant. They couldn't read and write.

Right? They were serfs and they worked and that's all they did. They didn't, the only people that could read and write were the priests and the royal families. And the Bible at that time was in Latin anyway. So the priest told you what the Bible said. They were the interpreters of the Bible. Exactly. Which is not any different than what a minister or preacher is now. He's an interpreter of what it's saying, right, to give out to his to his people to his congregation, right?

And and that's and that's good. It should be that that's what the moms do. You're right, right the good of moms So which I will get to so We have crusades we have the heresy of the night's Templars Right nice Templars and do anything wrong French King and Pope at the time Got together France was broke Templars, right? Nice Templars didn't do anything wrong. French King and Pope at the time got together. France was broke. Templars are controlling all the land in the Middle East and in the area of Jerusalem and

surrounding areas. So, oh, let's make them heretics. And that way we just confiscate their property. So now we're not broke, right? That's a true story that actually happened. Afghanistan. We had captured a, or not we, not me, but the American forces there had captured a would-be suicide bomber.

He was going to drive in a truck full of explosives into the gate at Camp Leatherneck, which had been done anyway, eventually got done anyway. It's not by him. So I sat in on this interrogation, this guy. The guy who was doing it was doing the interrogation was actually a Muslim. He was a Marine who had converted Islam, married a local girl. Okay. And he was all into it, man. I used to tease him all the time in a fun way, but really I could have just like cut

his throat right there. That's just the way I felt about him. Right. But he would keep this little knapsack and he'd have a Quran in English and a Quran in Pashtun, which was what his wife spoke. Right. So he was he was constantly looking at it, constantly looking through it and trying to learn, right? And so we get this guy in there. He's leaning forward in a chair that's bolted to the ground with chains that are also on these like hooks, the I forget what they're called, but you know what I mean. And they were in there. He's shamed down to a point. Yeah, very uncomfortable position. And we're talking to him and he, through interpreters, he pipes up and he says, he says, if I kill the infidel, I'm guaranteed heaven.

Right. You hear that statement a lot. What we think. I'm so glad you're doing this because I was going to ask about it. So this is great. and so this is where this is where going back to 9-11. Wow, this kind of ties in The interrogator at that time with that he misses really Hold on a second goes over to his knapsack gets the Quran out in past to him slides it across the table Tells him through interpreters. If you can show me where it is in that book that it says that, I'll let you go. The dude sunk his head. And said, I can't read.

I can't read. That's what the mom told us. So there's a tie in there. OK. And that's a huge part that still is throughout Islam is a large portion of our population throughout the world is ignorant. They can't read. They can't write. And that's how you get these guys who have agendas to tie in. these guys who have agendas to tie in. They can indoctrinate the most needy and uneducated among them to do their bidding for things that have nothing to do with their religion.

Right. Now, it's it's the duty of all Muslims to try to memorize the Quran. Okay. Even parts of it. So I know they have memorized parts of the Quran, but they don't have the educational background to even decipher what they're what they're reciting. So it's it's like, you know, it's I can read something, but if I don't know

what this word means or I don't know how the sentence structures. Yeah. You know, I don't I don't know but all this guy's explaining it to me And he's in charge. So he's a respected person, you know So there's so many similarities there, especially from the early church to Islam to and and and and I don't speak a lot about Judaism because I really don't know that much about Judaism but but I'm sure there's a tie in there too. We'll be right back.

Hi I'm Laura VanderKam. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals,

we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. frog and with all her might throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty tiny slipper on a large ungainly foot. In the Grimm brothers version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries. And these tales stay with us, they stick in our brains.

The stories existed before the Grimm's, they will exist long after us. They stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's. They will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm. Listen to the Deep Dark Woods on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good song. The Johnny Carson theme, right? Hey, who wrote that? Skip, who do you think it's your buddy? Hi everyone, I'm Paul Enko.

And I'm Skip Bronson. And what happens when two old friends take their decades of experience in the business and entertainment roles and sit down with our buddies? You get our way, a brand new show from My Heart Podcast where we chop it up with our pals about everything under the sun. Hear about Michael Buble's entrance into show business and get business insight from Mark Burnett. Find out what scares my son-in-law Jason Bateman and discover the bragging rights that come with beating Michael Jordan at golf together We know just about everybody including Sitting presidents so join us as we ask the questions. They've not been asked before tell it like it is and even sing a song or two

This is our podcast and we're gonna do it our way Listen to our way on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You went in looking to kill them all and ended up loving them all and frankly, them loving you, but you still made a fricking bomb and we're planning on blowing these folks up. And at some point I know the FBI catches wind of the pre mentality you.

Well, so here's how that happened. This it had already happened. You know, I mean, we, this conversion, this change of heart, whatever you want to say, I had disposed of the bomb, disposed of all the parts properly, then just throw them in a dumpster. I got it. And it's went on about my life. I now I had nobody at this point even knows what your plans were.

No, anybody that knew me knew I hated Muslims. Yeah, but they didn't know idea. They did no idea your building. You kept that under your hat. Just me, nobody else. Got it. Until that. So, so I was I was in college now because the VA, you know, I'm part of the system now and the VA

says, hey, why don't you go to college? I can't do labor work. I would have loved to have been a welder. But your back, shoulder, you got blown up. Yeah. So I have to do a behind the desk job now, you know. So I have to go to college for that because I'm dumber than a box of rocks. Okay.

So I got to learn something. Right. And so I'm, I'm, I'm in, I'm in class and I'm 40 some odd years old mid 40s. And I'm, so I had a different relationship with my professors than the 20 something students. We were actually more friends, you know, I was sitting in an office drinking coffee with one of my professors and I don't even know why I don't know what started the whole conversation. But I told her. I told her the story. You're kidding. No, you said, Hey, you know what?

Yeah, I built a bomb and I was going to blow these fools up now. I'm one of them. I get how that go. Yeah. Yeah. She was like, Oh my gosh. I bet. And she she knew me on the outside through charity organizations, stuff that I had been a part of and start and done stuff for and everything like that. So she knew I was not just talking to be talking, right? And she goes, Oh, my gosh. She goes, you have got to tell that story. That could change people's lives.

I'm like, really? I didn't think nothing of it, you know? It's something that happened. It's over, whatever, you know? And she says, what are you doing the rest of the day? I said, well, I finished this coffee. I was going to go home and go to sleep. I ain't got nothing else to do.

She goes, no, you got my next class. You're going to tell that story. So I did. Somebody in that class was shocked that here this guy is saying that he made a bomb and unbalanced former Marine in our midst. And now he's a Muslim? Yo, no, he's making phone calls saying, you got to check this dude out.

And there they come. And it was funny because, you know, a lot of times I, and I think this is a guy thing too, where we'll say stuff and it's like, as soon as it leaves our mouth, we were trying to reach out and grab it back, right? Yeah, you can't put it back. Yeah, because they showed up and introduced themselves. and I was like, what took you so long?

That's what I said to him. And as soon as I said that, I was like, dude, you're getting dumber and dumber. He's stuck up. Oh, man. And so we talked. It started out as a like a health and comfort kind of visit, right? To make sure I was okay. They were water-bored.

No. But they were investigating. So we talked about it and I told them, I said, yeah, that's gone. So they said, well, do you mind if we do an investigation for explosives here in the house? And I said, no. About half hour later, I'm handcuffed in the front lawn, bomb dogs going through my house, and then my wife and my daughter pull up. Oh my gosh.

They didn't know anything, even after the fact they didn't know about it. I didn't even tell them, and I already told her, professor at school. You know, I tell her, so I'm like most husbands, I don't tell my wife nothing. Yeah, but it was, you know, that was the beginning of the end of that marriage.

Because there's people in FBI, jackets, local police department, and I live in an apartment complex. It's a big deal. Everybody's out. I read, and they didn't find it, and they found you to no longer be a threat and all of that. What is astonishing to me is now you have to tell these people that you've now joined in your house of worship that yeah, I was going to kill all y'all. And they invited you to dinner. Well, hospitality is big in the Islamic world, especially in

the Pashtun culture. And that and BB and her family are from that culture, they're from Afghanistan. So hospitality is big. I used to make the joke. I said, because people, we would always, when we were doing, as you know, those, those, where you go around and do the premieres and all that stuff. And people would ask about the food, right? Because BB is like out of this world, a cook. I mean, she's, oh my gosh. And I tell people, I said, man, I used to weigh 190 pounds before I went to her house. I'm 256 now.

All right. And I said, yeah, don't even drive by our house because you will look in your every mirror and should be chasing you down with a plate. Okay. That's the way she is, right? Oh man, I love her so much. But, um, so it was the fact that it was being talked about because things were being heard because of course I started talking about it, not telling them.

Like I said, I still, I told that class. I'm not, like I said, I'm still not that smart. I never graduated high school. I have two degrees now, but I never graduated high school. I have two degrees now, but I never graduated high school and you would and so it's proof that just having a degree does not make you smart. Okay. They have heard about it and it made a lot of people uncomfortable unbeknownst to me. And she, she did. She, this is not the first time she invited me to her house, but now, yeah, she had intentions now.

Well, no, I just wonder if in my church there was a former Muslim who fought for the Iranian Republican Guard who had formally gone as far to build a bomb and had plans to put it under our sanctuary on Christmas Eve, who then converted and we found all this out if our first reaction would be, hey, let's have him over to dinner to talk about it. Yeah, I know. I know. Well, that's what happened. Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

Well, I mean, we need to check ourselves just a little because to me, that is the ultimate in grace and courage because I gotta believe there are people in her community going, what? Yeah. Yeah. People still get a, they still get a laugh out of that regardless of whether they're in the community or not. They still get a laugh out of it because yeah, it's like, are you serious?

I wouldn't want that person in my house, right? And she invited you to her home with her family for dinner. And there was friends there too. There was other people from the community there were there also. And you know, I was just talking to everybody and you know, I guess looking back, I noticed there was an uncomfortable feeling that was kind of in the air. I would have said. But it didn't really hit me much, you know, because I mean, here I'm one of you now, right?

You know, I didn't even give it a much thought. I also read that one of your, all right, in a church. It's a parishioner. What do you call a fellow? Islam worshipping person from your house of worship. What do you call that person? Is there a term for that? It's a brother. Okay, brother or sister or sister. Okay, sister Is a African-American guy who's American grew up in America whose grandfather Was castrated and hung in Muncie, Indiana, who hated white people. Oh, yeah. Who is now your brother.

Oh, yeah. How'd he take the news of the bomb? Well, he was just like everybody, I guess, when they did really when they did find out. He was shocked. You know, even he forgot. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, see, and that's that's the similarities of what our face stand for. We have to forgive. And there's even a psychological advantage to that because nobody's asking you to forget anything, but when you forgive, you let everything go. And that's the beauty of our religion.

If there's punishment to be dealt, it's not by us. And it's not really even our concern. Mac, my faith teaches that not only do you have to give others, you have to give yourselves. How you doing with that? In large, I have. And the only reason I say that is because people have come up to me and they have told me that I have helped. I have answered questions. Lauren Parks. Give people hope.

I don't think I'm a big deal. I do not. I'm just a guy with a story. I really, I mean, that's the way I look at myself, right? And it is very humbling at times, you know, but, but I always go back to one of, one of my favorite comments that I had ever received on, on my message. And I don't tell you exactly what he said, because it was, it was, it's the way I used to talk, right? But it'd be, but he was very, he was very honest and he said, if a tough guy like you can change the way he thinks

about things, I guess I can too. That's what it's all about. Boy, that's the payoff, isn't it? That's it. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator.

We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out

how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon.

He ordered her to do this impossible thing. He threatened to kill her multiple times. At this point, she just had it. She takes the frog and with all her might, throws him against the wall. We see sort of a comical effort to put a dainty tiny slipper on a large ungainly foot. In the Grimm brothers version, the sisters just straight up cut off their toes and heels. Not only is there more to these tales than what was told in bedtime stories, there's a reason they've lasted centuries.

And these tales stay with us. They stick in our brains. The stories existed before the Grimm's. They will exist long after us. Long after the last copy of any known book of yours is rotting in a landfill, the fairy tales are going to exist. They're going to continue. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the brother's Grimm. Listen to the deep dark woods on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good song. The Johnny Carson theme, right?

Hey, who wrote that? Skip, who do you think it's your buddy? Hi, everyone. I'm Paul Anka. And I'm Skip Bronson. And what happens when two old friends take their decades of experience in the business and entertainment roles and sit down with our buddies? You get our way, a brand new show from My Heart Podcast

where we chop it up with our pals about everything under the sun. Hear about Michael Buble's entrance into show business. And get business insight from Mark Burnett. find out what scares my son-in-law Jason Bateman and discover the bragging rights that come with beating Michael Jordan at golf together. We know just about everybody including Sitting presidents. So join us as we ask the questions. They've not been asked before Tell it like it is and even sing a song or two

They've not been asked before tell it like it is and even sing a song or two This is our podcast and we're gonna do it our way listen to our way on the iHeart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast I got a question. What do you feel like you have to forgive yourself for? Because in the film, the documentary, you talked about having a hard time at first forgiving yourself. And I found that to be odd because you didn't blow the bomb up. So we're not talking about the bomb. I assumed and correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking about the 25 years in the military.

Absolutely. But my. You were. Serving. Under orders. serving under orders, doing a really unsavory but unconvenient and uncomfortable truth that we have to have people defending us or we won't be able to have conversations like this because you can't have this conversation. A lot of countries in this world, we have that liberty and that liberty is precious.

And it requires guys like you who did the work that you did in the military to provide us with the freedoms. To explore and understand and grow from one another like this. So what do you need to forgive yourself for? Is it the fact that you killed people that worship like you do now? It it encompasses a lot of things it really it's it's the shame That I got enjoyment out of it. Oh Now I You know you you would say something which is really a very

prominent misunderstanding. Okay. Is that you mentioned we were under orders? That's part true because I rose up in rank. Okay. And the higher I got it basically a lot of times became Michael We were given a task You go from here you go here and you make it safe That's the task how was a different how's a different deal I I I do have Issue with that and the fact that I Enjoyed it

On the surface I guess because I would come back from operations that I Would set and cry for a while alone just go somewhere I'd cry Because I would set and cry for a while on my own just go somewhere I'd cry Because It was hard, you know and and and the hardest thing was even I Mean I understood the reason behind it, but Even the dead children man you can't some things you can't unsee you can't man it

it'll haunt me for the rest of my days man and I know God's forgiven me you know it's our thing like the baptism in Christianity right sins are worse the way at that point start over right we take shahad its decoration of faith right and we do that publicly once we do that sins are gone at that point start again so I do feel in my heart that God's forgiven me And

In the grand scheme of things is really matter if I ever forgive myself or not not really God forgive me That's all that matters, right? but It's just a man, it's a hard thing And there's men and women all of our country who served our country dutifully that are all still probably dealing with a lot of that. And that is the price they pay for our ability to have this chat today. Very true. Very true.

You know, one in five homeless people are veterans. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I read that not too long ago. That's shameful. That is shameful. That is shameful. And on the government's speak, we can send billions of dollars in military aid

to a country. But we come back here and we sit down and go, yeah, our economic problems because all the single moms on food stamps. What? You are now married to a Christian woman, which is hilarious. You are, you have been the president of your mosque twice. And you've taken the opportunity of your story and a documentary

that's an Oscar-nominated documentary. It's only 30 minutes, you guys should watch it. That's had over a million views and now you have a social work degree. Tell me what you're doing with your life now, Matt. Well, so I do have a degree in social work, which means I'm broke. I was working as a life coach and when this film kicked off and I was going here and there for all the premieres and everything, I decided to step down. I resigned from my position it to step down. I resigned from my position and because I want to focus on this message. And it's not to say that this message is an end all. It's not. It's a step. I don't look at myself as somebody that's fascinating necessarily or I'm nobody special.

You know, I mean my teachers used to say that about me, but I'm nobody special. Right? And I just want people to stop and think. So I travel and I meet with people, not all of them like me. I've had death threats. You know, if I tell people, considering the first part of my life was people trying to kill me, if that all of a sudden stopped,

I'd probably go through some kind of separation anxiety. So the death threats are all yours. I don't need that added, right? So I'm good, I'm good. Keep it up guys. But so I just want people to stop and think You don't have to agree with me Some people are not going to agree with me. Most people might not agree with me. That's fine

But stop and think there may be other options. I use the example of a hand, right? You have you lay your hand out your fingers, and this signifies differences in humanity, whether it's religion, race, you know, social culture, whatever, it doesn't matter, right? And it's a hand. It's a tool. You can do a lot with a hand, right? But when it comes to having things that have to be done, and it has to be done the right way and you have to stay In firm, what do you do? You gotta clench it you bring it all together because this my friends is unbreakable And until we can get to this It's not gonna work

Mac your story is crazy from a drug dealing and using high school dropout to a 25 year veteran of our military who learned to hate Muslims, who got blown up, who decided he was going to blow up some Muslims and wanted to prove that that was a good thing to do to the one thing he loved on the face of the planet, which was his daughter. And through trying to prove that, found love and faith and forgiveness not only of himself, but of everything and converted Islam and is now trying to use all of that experience to get people to just listen to one another. That's it. What a life, bro.

Yeah. I usually end my talks with years ago, a very wise man made a statement that will forever live in history. He said, I have a dream. I have a plan and it starts with a smile and a conversation. I love that Mac. If somebody wants to meet you, hear you have them speak, how do they find Matt? I am all over social media.

Give me some handles or whatever. So I did start an LLC called From Hate to Understanding. If you want to write an email, it's from hate to understanding, all one word at gmail.com. That goes straight to you. That goes straight to me. Yeah, I'm not that big. I don't have people doing my paperwork stuff for me. I don't have somebody read my emails. I do TikTok. I'm an old guy, but it gets to the young people.

And that's this Richard Mack McKinney on TikTok and Facebook. I can't invite anybody to Facebook because I'm full. What does that mean? 5,000, that's the limit. No more friends after 5,000. Yeah. Richard McKinney, everybody, otherwise known as Mack. Brother, thanks for coming to Memphis.

Spend some time with me and sharing your story and sharing it so openly. I have really enjoyed being able to discuss some of the things that I think people really wonder about. And I hope we've challenged some people to maybe think about things differently because, as you know, I don't think the narratives coming out of DC or the national media do anything but serve to divide us. And I think when an army of normal folks, regardless of how you worship,

what you look like, who you love or what you believe can come together and have open civil non-threatening conversations about the stuff that we differ on is how we can maybe close that hand one day. And you're at the tip of the spear. You've been on the tip of the spear your whole life and you're at the tip of the spear of another fight. And I'll tell tell you I sleep well at night knowing there were men like you on the wall Back when you were serving our country in the military and I sleep well at night knowing there's men like you on the wall That tip of the spear trying to close the fist and I appreciate you joining us bud. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And thank you for joining us this week. If Richard McKinney or another guest has inspired you in general or better yet inspired you to take action by bringing Richard to speak to a group

in your area or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at bill at normalfolks.us. I personally will respond. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social. Subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it. Please consider becoming a premium member at normalfolks.us, all these things that can help us grow an army of normal folks. Guys, the more folks, the more possibility we have to make an impact. For premium members, we'll have bonus content from this episode with Mack telling the story of nominating his now friend Beebe, episode with Mac telling the story of

Nominating his now friend BB a woman to be the head of their mosque, which is Revolutionary if you don't want to miss it become a premium member today. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week One of the best shows of the year according to Apple, Amazon and Time is back for another round. We had a big bear of a man who was called Mal Evans, who was on roadie, and he was coming back on the plane. And he said, will you pass the salt and pepper? And I miss her then. I said, what? So aren't you perfect? Listen to season 2 of McCartney, A Life in Lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This past season on my podcast, Here's the Thing.

I spoke with more actors, musicians, policymakers, and so many other fascinating people, like jazz-basist Christian McBride. Jazz is based on improvisation, but there's very much a form to it. Most pop songs have a very strict structure, verse-verse course, whereas jazz, you get a melody with a set of chord changes. You play that melody with those chord changes. Now, once you do that, you have a conversation based on that melody and of chord changes. You play that melody with those chord changes. Now, once you do that, you have a conversation based on that melody and those chord changes.

So it's kind of like giving someone a topic and say, okay, talk about this. And comedian and actor Caroline Ray, you're most comfortable when you're on stage. Probably. You really love it. Yeah, I feel like I always think my standup is a dinner party.

I know what I'm gonna make. You're my guest. I don't know what's gonna happen. But the thing about stand-up that amazes me is it's only gonna happen in that moment in time. Even if we film it, it's never gonna be what it feels like live. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing

on the iHeart Radio App Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you fairy Tales had a darker side? He locked her in this dungeon. He ordered her to do this impossible thing. He threatened to kill her multiple times. That's one where Red and Grandma are just dead. She takes the frog and with all her might

throws him against the wall. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the brother's grim. Listen to the deep dark woods on the I. Join me, Miranda Hawkins, as we step into the twisted world of the Brothers Grimm. Listen to the Deep Dark Woods on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.