An Army of Normal Folks - Scott Strode: Rising From The Ashes… Together (Pt 1)

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

After struggling with addiction for almost 2 decades, Scott Strode found hope while ice climbing. The healing power of nature and community radically transformed his life. And Scott couldn’t not share his secret with the rest of the world too. The Phoenix was born and this year their sober movement is expected to serve more than 400,000 people!Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

And I would go to this climbing gym in Boulder and get punch passes and I'd stand there with my harness in my hand waiting on a Friday night because that's what the cork board said, you know, and no one showed up, you know, and I stood there a lot of Friday nights like, well, well, maybe tonight, maybe tonight. Was that defeating? It was, but in my heart I kind of knew that there was a desire there. I felt like it had to click for folks. And sure enough, one night this guy Barry walked in and he looked around.

He's like, does anybody else going to show up? And I was like, oh, maybe later, you know. And so we just started climbing. Higher. No, you're the first in four weeks, but thank God you're here. Yeah, yeah. So we started climbing and then there were two or three folks and that first year there were about 70 folks that came to Phoenix.

Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. In the last part, well, we accidentally ended up with an Oscar for the film about our team.

It's called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits talking big words that nobody understands on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks, us, just you and me saying, you know what, I can help. That's what Scott Strowed, the voice we just heard, has done. From the humble beginnings of only Scott and Barry, the Phoenix expects to serve more than 400,000 people this year.

Their movement leverages the power of community, fitness, and other meaningful activities to change how society approaches addiction and recovery. And guys, it's working. I cannot wait for you to meet Scott right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. 47 years ago, on a warm summer's night in Melbourne, Susan Bartlett and Suzanne

Armstrong were stabbed to death in their home in Easy Street, Collingwood. Suzanne's 16-month-old son was asleep in his car at the time. The double homicide left the community shocked and detectives rattled as several promising early leads gradually peed it out. No one has ever been charged and critical questions remain unanswered. Did the young women know their killer or did they die in a brutal random attack? Why has their murderer never been found? Journalist Helen Thomas has been investigating Susan and Suzanne's deaths for more than

a decade. Now Helen has doved into the case again for a brand new original podcast made for Case File Presents. Listen to Case File Presents, The Easy Street Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. our families. On the Best of Both Worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing.

From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. History is beautiful, brutal, and often ridiculous. Join me Ben Bullitt and me Noel Brown as we dive into some of the strangest stories from across the span of human civilization in ridiculous history. Whether we're exploring the accidental invention of hold music or how people used to rent pine apples. Why British lawyers still wear those weird wigs?

Or that time that Russian hipsters made records out of X-rays? True story. Or that time Abraham Lincoln was an amateur wrestler. Boy, that guy had some reach, huh? And don't forget the history of curling, which is an actual sport. Join us to hear the many ways history can be oh so ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous History on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you find your favorite shows.

Scott Strode. Bro, thanks for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me. I've read a lot of your story and I've watched a Ted talk and I've been looking forward to talking to you. You and I have a lot of similarities in our life and the things you've done, I find pretty amazing. So let's let's introduce our audience to Scott the Kid, where you grew up, how you grew up, and who you are. Yeah, yeah. So I grew up in Pennsylvania in a town called Lancaster's outside of Philly about an hour and 45 minutes or so. And it was sort of rural,

you know, Pennsylvania farmland and my mom and my dad divorced pretty early, so kind of split my time between my mom who was a single working mom and my dad who had a farm in even more rural Pennsylvania. And I had a pretty dynamic childhood. I share this because it's really part of who I became, but my dad had untreated mental health struggles. It was always trying to figure out who he was, who he was going to be when we spent time with him.

Then when my mom remarried, it brought alcoholism into our family. So, you know, in one home, I was kind of navigating that alcoholic dynamic. And then in the other home, I was navigating the mental health stuff. And as a kid... Was your mom struggling with alcoholism or your stepdad? My stepdad, yeah. And then his family more broadly were pretty heavy drinkers. So... Your father was a farmer?

He didn't have a working farm, but he lived on an old farm and was renovating an old farm house. He had goats and stuff like that, but it was... He was a contractor at the time, so he was doing work on other people's homes. What was the nature of his mental illness? You know, we never really were able to figure that out. You know, my guess is it was untreated bipolar. But then I think of it as that deteriorates over time and with age, you know, there was this pretty powerful narcissistic element too. And then I think he had some

like narcissistic element too. And then I think he had some sort of disconnects from kind of cognitive distortions at some point where he really wasn't… The way he saw the world really wasn't how the world was around him. And that ultimately led to him experiencing homelessness for the bulk of the later part of his life. We tried to support him around that and help him out of that. But we realized by the time we were like eight or nine, we were kind of helping to parent him instead of him parenting us. That created a pretty tough childhood. When you were…

It sounds like your mom and dad had joint custody because it sounds like you were back and forth. Was your mom aware of that? She was, but it was sort of a different time. It was just on the end of that sort of culture where kind of women were seen as the failure of the marriage, even if there was still this little bit of a misogynistic culture and her trying to get full custody of us in the court system was pretty tough. It wasn't until my brother hit 18 and the judge actually said, what do you want to do?

My brother chose not to want to go visit my dad anymore. Then the judge gave us that choice too. That was our reprieve from those weekends with him where we were pretty much, we kind of joke that we grew up feral, but we kind of did. We were just running around a farm pretty much unattended most of the time out in the woods playing and swimming across ponds. And, you know, it sounds pretty idealistic, you know, of like, you know, in this rural setting.

But truth is we probably should have been cared for more and didn't really always know what we were going to have for meals. And, you know, he would, he decided to renovate the house and he tore out a wall and never really put it back because it was kind of in a manic phase. So we had one wall that was just plastic that was like tacked up around it and heated the house with a wood stove. I don't think we had run and water. I know we had an outhouse for the bulk of our time there, but it was like, it was a

pretty sort of impoverished setting. And then with my mom, it was kind of a different dynamic. She was working, had a job, had a place for us, had some financial opportunity. And so we kind of lived in two worlds. So I've got to believe I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an eight-year-old. I mean, honestly, in the deepest recesses of your mind, that had to be frightening. And at the very least,

you couldn't have felt completely safe ever with your father. Yeah. I mean, I honed my skill at being able to read subtle social cues so that I knew how to show up to best keep him calm. That was something we started learning. My guess is I probably learned it before I even remember, but I remember really thoughtfully trying to figure out, is this a time where I talk?

Is this a time where I listen? Is this a time where I leave or a time where I stay? You never really knew if he was in a good space or a bad space or if he was manic or if he was depressed or… And he would get fairly emotionally abusive, very demeaning and kind of blaming. When you're a little kid like that, you just soak that up because your world's so contained to what you know that you actually think you're the problem. You start to believe that narrative and that's no surprise when I first tried booze and drugs. It made that go away. Scott, I'm the son of a five-time divorce mother whose father left when he was, when

I was four. I can remember at 14 or 15 looking in the mirror and wondering what was so broken about me that no man found me worthy of sticking around and investing in because not only divorces there were Boyfriends that were kind of long term that I started Feeling comfortable with and developing a relationship with that then we're gone. And at some point in a kids ethos, when your parents are supposed to be the safest place in the world, when they're the opposite of that, you really do start to wonder, what have I done? And so,

I can absolutely identify with what you're saying when after you've been, absolutely identify with what you're saying when after you've been, after you've been through that, you do start to wonder what's broken in you and maybe the dad's right. And candidly, that is both abuse and trauma. Yeah. Yeah. I think you framed it up perfectly. And what I think now looking back, you know tinting of the lens that I was forming with which I see the world through was so subtle, those elements were subtle at that young

age, but that tint was always there. So even as I went into my adolescence, I always had those self-esteem wounds I was still trying to manage as I tried to form nurturing relationships with others that was still present. As I tried to find my identity and self-worth, that was the lens I saw the world through. And until I realized I had to shatter that thing and see things clearly for the first time, It was a tough road. Howdy. 51. I'm 55. That lens didn't shatter for me until about eight years ago. And I say that because I want our listeners to understand that these kind of things that happen to children are deeply

concreted in a person's psyche and it takes, many don't get over it, but those who somehow manage a way to get over it, it does take often years and decades and it carries itself into your own marriages and relationships with your own children and your spouses and those you're close to. And I think I hear you saying that was the case for you.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was in a similar sort of timeframe as you, you know, that it took me, I could sort of start to manage that out of a lot of pieces of my life. And those experiences were kind of the foundation of the nonprofit I'd later build. But that core, that deepest core of that pain was there until relatively recently. And it took me doing some deeper sort of trauma work to really understand that that was within me. And no surprise why this is so broadly experienced, right? Because then we carry it into the next generation and we hand it down.

There's a quote that's, pain is passed from generation to generation until somebody's willing to feel it. And that just really speaks to me because my dad's dad left him when he was six, right? I was just about to ask you or about to say, I'll bet your father experienced some of the same things. And was probably just doing the best he could. You know, like he was, he probably disentangled a lot of that pain before it got to us, you know, and protected us from some of it.

But some of it, he didn't have the skills or the tools or understanding to be able to. And I'm a dad now, later in life. And I think about that a lot. My son asked me the other day what angry means. And the fact that he doesn't know that from lived experience is a a blessing. Yeah. Because I sure did. I would have asked him, do you got about a month? Because it's going to take that long for me to untangle that for you. All right. So that's dad.

Yeah. Mom sounds like she's trying and working hard, but has made a poor choice or you got that. Those are my words for some men that I grew up with. And was he also abusive? He wasn't he was it was more on the both of them more on the like emotional side. Like yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, he had more of that like excellence. Like you need to be here. You need to aspire to this be this like excellent person. And but he'd say that after, you need to be here, you need to aspire to this be this like excellent person and

buddy'd say that after, you know, eight martinis. I was like, is that excellent? You know, like. That's not really that excellent. Yeah. So, but, but the truth is the same thing. Now I'm in my adolescence. I'm like trying to really find my identity and, and it just felt like I kept getting ground down by this. I

should know better. I should do better. I should achieve better. I should be at this place of excellence. And of course, we're all like, there's a woman, Pia Melody, who talks a lot about early childhood trauma said, we're all perfectly imperfect. And that's the truth even about my stepdad and my dad. And, you know, all of us have, have those good parts of us and those tough parts of us. And, but at the time I thought I was failing consistently because I couldn't achieve. This sort of high bar. And so you carry, I carry.

this sort of high bar. And so you carry, I carry, people carry that have this kind of stuff going on in their childhood, in adolescence, and regardless of what facade you put on, this stuff is bounced around inside your heart, your head, your soul, your thoughts about yourself yourself and coping with that in adolescence is often very, very difficult. And you turned alcohol. Yeah.

And now a few messages from our generous sponsors, but first, I hope you'll consider becoming a premium member of the Army at normalfolks.us. By becoming one for 10 bucks a month or a thousand dollars a year, you can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes, a yearly group call, and even a one-on-one call with me. Frankly guys, premium memberships also help us to grow this army that our country desperately needs right now. So I hope you'll think about it.

We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the best of both worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners

as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. History is beautiful, brutal, and often ridiculous. Join me, Ben Bullitt and me, Noel Brown, as we dive into some of the strangest stories from across the span of human civilization in ridiculous history. Whether we're exploring the accidental invention of old music, or how people used to rant pineapples. Why British lawyers still wear those weird wigs? Or that time that Russian hipsters made records out of x-rays?

True story. Or that time Abraham Lincoln was an amateur wrestler. Boy, that guy had some reach, huh? And don't forget the history of curling, which is an actual sport. Join us to hear the many ways history can be oh so ridiculous. Listen to ridiculous history on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you find your favorite shows. Forty-seven years ago on a warm summer's night in Melbourne, Susan Bartlett and Suzanne Armstrong were stabbed to death in their home in Easy Street, Collingwood. Suzanne's 16-month-old son was asleep in his car at the time. The double homicide

left the community shocked and detectives rattled as several promising early leads gradually peed it out. No one has ever been charged and critical questions remain unanswered. Did the young women know their killer or did they die in a brutal random attack? Why has their murderer never been found? Journalist Helen Thomas has been investigating Susan and Suzanne's deaths for more than a decade. Now Helen has delved into the case again for a brand new original podcast made for Case File Presents. Listen to Case File Presents the Easy Straight Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I had my first drink when I was 11 and it was a beer my cousins gave it to me. And I think, I think they thought it would like deter me from drinking. Like it was like, yeah. A friend of mine's dad called him dip and Copenhagen and he took them outside and made them put the entire can in his mouth. And of course he vomited because it was just, so that was one of those. Uh, yeah, it was one of those. And then we were like water skiing on the Chesapeake or something and like cousins boat and they thought it would be funny if I had this beer and it would

like turn me away from it. And finally, one of the wiser cousins dumped it over the side and got me out of it, you know, but, but it wasn't until I went back and spent time with my friends and they, they asked me about it and they were like just mesmerized by the story. They're like, you had a beer? Oh, that's cool. Oh, my gosh.

And all of a sudden I was like, oh, these people are interested in me. Like these people, you know, like they're talking to me. I'm like, I feel lifted, you know? This is like what I've been looking for is like to feel. But one thing you weren't getting at home. Yeah, you got there. You got a positive reinforcement on a very negative thing. And then I realized like, hey, there's a whole liquor closet at my house, like because the cabinet's too small. So I can, I can, I bet I could pull a handle of vodka out of there and no one would ever notice, you know, and that was it. I was kind of often running.

So you're telling me you were drinking at 12, 13, 14, being cool, all that? Yeah. Yeah, it was, and you know, it's not uncommon for folks who struggle with substance use to say, well, the first time they had that, they just felt at peace or at ease, you know? And for me, it was that combined with people wanting to be around me and sort of wanting to share time with me. And I felt like it was caring about me and loving me, but it was really, they just wanted to party with me, but that was good with that, you know? You know, it's funny. That's not very dissimilar from the many people I've interviewed who got into gangs at 13

and 14. It was the same. I thought people were loving me and everything else, but it's the same thing seeking Having holes in a part of your your your psyche and and your soul that are filled They're positively reinforced by negative things and it sounds like it's not much different alcohol was that for you? Gangs maybe that for kids from the hood, whatever, all stimming, frankly, from childhood trauma, really. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And if you, I mean, imagine that group of kids I was hanging out with, their stories were probably similar and they, what brought them together around this thing with me was, was probably a similar desire for connection. And I think, you know, and you could tell a story, you know, about somebody getting involved in gang life that could sound very much like somebody seeking safety. And then it turns into something that is much more destructive. And that's how my addiction was.

So alcohol was a gateway to, I guess, was it weed first? I mean, this... Yeah, it was pretty classic. I don't want to generalize your story, but typically it's alcohol, weed, maybe a lewd or something, and then ultimately cocaine or heroin. I mean, that is almost the story verbatim I've heard a hundred times. Yeah. Yeah, and it was very similar. You know, I could...

I knew where the booze was. I could steal it. I'd have the cool parties. Then as my adolescence progressed, I was still struggling with the mental health stuff and depression and self-worth stuff. And through getting some mental health support, I met somebody who sold weed. And one day day I was buying weed from her and I was like, what's that? She's like, hey, it's Coke. I'm going to try a little bit. I tried it.

Same thing as the first beer. I told my buddies, they're like, no way. You did that. You tried it. What was it like? I was like, I bet I can get some. And then it turned into a whole sort of another level. I think like addiction has these like trap doors that you feel like it's you're sort of on a more normal

trajectory and then you fall through one of those and it's like a whole another layer that you've dropped into. When you were sober and straight and you looked shelf in the mirror. What were you seeing them? You know, like I was when I got into recovery, I found my way into a boxing gym and some guys in Boston, you know, a friend of mine was a golden gloves fighter and she's like, Oh, coach, I'll teach you about the sport. And I got into that boxing gym. This is like, you know, at 24 now. And and as I started to hit the bag and like learn about the sport and build some

technique, I started to feel this self confidence that I didn't have before. And then somebody, you know, I had this opportunity to try climbing for the first time and and get into the top of the climb, started to build that self-esteem. There were some other sober guys in that boxing gym and I started to build a little fellowship. It started to just crack open enough light into this understanding that like how I viewed myself all these years was lies,'t, I did have this innate strength and this innate value and I could achieve these things I put my mind towards and then I got hungry for that. I got hungry for that feeling and wanted to keep chasing that instead of the drinking and the drugging. drug. Do you feel like you made a choice?

Yeah, I think I made a choice. Like I think when we talk about addiction, we often talk about like somebody's got to hit bottom before they change their path. I don't really see it that way. I think for a lot of us hitting bottom might just be the true bottom, right? The end of our life or it's over, you know, that kind of thing. I think that we have these little windows where we have a moment of perspective on our life.

That's what I'm talking about when you're looking yourself in the mirror. That's what I'm asking. Yep. And it was that. It was like, you realize that your dreams of who you thought you could be had been stripped away, sometimes in this very insidious way that you didn't realize it was happening. I just found some things that started giving me some of those dreams back. I wanted to do that stuff more. I wanted to do that more than what I used to do. I realized the people around me actually cared about me in this new world. A lot of my buddies from the old one just wanted to go drink and get high. We jumped ahead a little.

There's a part of the story I think it's important for people to know before they understand so much about you that really makes what you do now incredible is Somewhere along the line in there before you started the ice climbing your mom knew you're in trouble and I don't really understand it. I'd like you to kind of tell me how it worked But and you ended up mess around on boats or something. I don't know Fill in the blanks for me on that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when my mom was, I think, trying to get me out of the environment I was in and I, she recognized it. She saw you were in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. And, and she was seeking any opportunity, you know, and I, I, I'm dyslexic.

I'm horribly dyslexic. And in those days prior to that, there really weren't a lot of resources for kids with learning disabilities, and there was a program for kids with dyslexia. And so we went and interviewed, it was a boarding school in Massachusetts, and I went up to interview and they mentioned this boat program that was like a semester at sea. And I was like, well, that sounds cool. You know, I was like, that sounds

way better than what I'm doing in Pennsylvania, you know, and, and, and, but somewhere in my heart, I think I knew, I knew I had to change. I was afraid of the path I was on. And my mom and I talked on the train on the way home and, and I decided to go on this program. And I think it's exactly what I needed. You know, there's something about nature has this like, this very clear cause and effect. And I would always sort of share that the captain would say, hey, be careful going forward in the storm.

And I'd be like, whatever, with my mohawk and my don't tread on me like leather jacket, you know. And, and uh. Well, is that really what your deal was? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You had Mohawk? Yeah.

Now it's more like this way, Mohawk. Yeah, I get it. That's... Um, but the... It seems from a breakfast club. Yeah, totally. That, right? That was it.

Yeah. But then a wave would like crush you on the deck of the ship and you'd be like, maybe he's on to something. Maybe the captain. The old captain knows what he's talking about here. And you started feeling this sense of community with your crew. You had to work together. When you let somebody down there, it wasn't just you, like with your self-fulfilling prophecy

about your own sort of self-worth, it's all this internal sort of monologue. You're actually letting down a team that cared about you and needed you. And then so you find yourself showing up in a different way. And I didn't realize it at the time, but the foundation that I learned on the ship was really the elements and the principles of what would become the nonprofit later. We'll be right back. Forty-seven years ago, on a warm summer's night in Melbourne, Susan Bartlett and Suzanne Armstrong were stabbed to death in their home in Easy Street, Collingwood. Suzanne's 16-month-old

son was asleep in his car at the time. The double homicide left the community shocked and detectives rattled as several promising early leads gradually peed it out. No one has ever been charged and critical questions remain unanswered. Did the young women know their killer or did they die in a brutal random attack? Why has their murderer never been found? Journalist Helen Thomas has been investigating Susan and Suzanne's deaths for more than a decade. Now Helen has delved into the case again for a brand new original podcast made for Case File Presents.

Listen to Case File Presents, the Easy Street Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. History is beautiful, brutal, and often ridiculous. Join me, Ben Bullen and me, Noel Brown, as we dive into some of the strangest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History. Whether we're exploring the accidental invention of old music or how people used to rent pine apples. Why British lawyers still wear those weird wigs Or that time that Russian hipsters made records out of x-rays

True story or that time Abraham Lincoln was an amateur wrestler Well, I had some reach on and don't forget the history of curling which is an actual sport Join us to hear the many ways history can be oh so ridiculous. Listen to Ridiculous History on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you find your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Laura VanderKimm. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And I'm Sarah Hart Unger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and course creator.

We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. On the Best of Both Worlds podcast each week, we share stories of how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. We talk all things planning, time management, organization, and more. We share what's worked for us and our listeners as we're building our careers and raising our families. We're here to cheer you on as you figure out how to make your days even more amazing. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long-term career goals, we want you to get

the most out of life. Listen to Best of Both Worlds every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you end up in Boulder? Yeah. Yeah. So in kind of a roundabout way, like so when I got, got into recovery, got in the boxing gym, found this brochure about climbing and signed up for this climbing class

and really changed my life, you know, by getting to the top of that climb and then jumped into that stuff with both feet and eventually was able to quit drinking and using. And I would just like wait outside the box and gym with my gym bag, with a couple other guys that were as dedicated and the door would open and we'd go in and stay there till they'd kick us out, you know, and that became my early recovery. And between that and going up Climb-in

in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, you know, I was just all in on that stuff. And at this point was in recovery and fell in love with... And this is almost a self-recovery, Scott. It doesn't sound like you're... You're just finding ways to change your own life at this point, right? Yeah. Yep. I mean, I'm asking. Is that right? No, that is right. And I didn't have the awareness at the time, but I was still chasing that self-worth.

I started climbing, then I had to climb harder climbs. I started doing triathlon, then I had to do Ironman. Everything had to get always level up, or else I didn't feel like I was proving to myself that I had intrinsic strength. I didn't feel like I was proving to myself that I that I had intrinsic strength. I didn't believe I believe your overcoming voices that were still in your head from when you were eight years old. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. You cross a finish line at an Ironman and say, man, I should have done better on the bike. I could have been faster in the swim. I was like, I never stopped to celebrate anything I accomplished because I felt like I still messed it up. And it was that internal monologue. But those activities

drew me out to Colorado and ultimately ultimately to Boulder, where the Phoenix was born. So I read or heard or something. Something that was pretty funny. You you decided this outdoors thing was kind of cool. And you decided, hey, I'm going to be an outdoorsy guy. And you show up to like a, I don't know, right, some kind of area, some kind of outdoors place. Ariak out of place.

And you say, hey, I've decided I'm gonna be outdoorsy. Why don't you tell me what I need? Yeah. Is that right? Where you on cocaine at the time? No, I was actually sober that day. But the guy kind of looked at me and he was like, I guess you need a Gore-Tex jacket, you know, and actually it was great advice,

you know, that was like probably the best thing to start with. And the guys that work at the outdoorsy place are kind of granola anyway. So I can kind of see him looking at you going, uh, a coat. Yeah, exactly, a coat. Yeah. A coat. Yeah, exactly. Gloves. Yeah. Maybe the quit smoking is actually what you need.

You know, like, um, but. But a boater bag for your vodka. I don't know. Right. Yeah. But that, you know, I was walking out with my new Gore-Tex jacket and that's where I saw that it was actually ice climbing brochure. And really, you know, I was walking out with my new Gore-Tex jacket and that's where I saw that, it was actually ice climbing brochure. Really, you saw it there?

I saw it there and I thought, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen. And for some reason, I wanted to do it. And that was, you know, then I stayed sober Friday night to do a climbing lesson on Saturday. And that was, you know, I started like regulating my drinking so I could climb on the weekends. And that was the beginning of like weaning off of it. Marshall That's really kind of interesting. You really were, you know, you hear a lot of stories about people that quote go to therapy. You're in your own, you're figuring out your own personal

therapy at this point. Yeah. Yeah. And the power of the outdoors. Like, I think it was probably from those days on the boat, I knew that, you know, gone into nature and that that sense of awe that nature can kind of deliver is therapeutic, you know, and I just started going out there and that was filling me up in a different way and slowly started having less nights of the week when I was drinking.

I can't let this escape me. It's just a thought. Yeah. Well, the irony that you just told me that when you were with your dad, the way y'all escaped your dad's house was you went out and ran around in the trees and jumped creeks and played in the trees and grass and stuff and the irony of that I think shouldn't be lost on any of this. Yeah. And I actually, sorry.

That's like a, that's pretty profound thing to kind of pick up on because you're right. You know, like when I think about back to my childhood, like the most joyous memories of my childhood or being out in the woods with my siblings, you know, like playing in the pond. And it's like even the fond memories I do have with my dad were sitting at a tree line at sunset watching where the pheasants would go into roost, you know, because small game season was coming up and we were just listening to them, the sound of them, their wings coming over the top of the hill. And it was in those little moments where I actually got to bond with him. And I always feel like that was really who he was. The other stuff was just the

noise getting in the way of his, from his own story. Yeah. Well, it all ties together, bud. I mean, it makes complete sense to me as I'm sitting here listening to you and I think it's really sweet that you say that's who he really was. I mean, even though he had problems, he chose to live on a farmhouse out in the middle of the woods so clearly he was drawn to the same things that his son was drawn to ultimately, which is interesting, I think. Yeah. Yeah, which is interesting, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

That just shows that that history, that lineage of pain isn't really there's no one who's who's responsible for that. It's at some point we need to forgive everybody in the chain and start new. So Brother Scott's deciding I'm going to climb some ice stuff in Boulder with my new Gore-Tex jacket that the granola guy gave me.

And I've got my ice climbing brochure in my hand. Yeah. And now I'm in Boulder. Take this from there. Yeah. And I mean, I, you know, just to be honest, right, I jumped right into that just with the same vigor I was drinking and using with. And I was like, I jumped right into that just with the same vigor I was drinking and using with.

And I was like, I was after it. I was training for Iron Man, then I raced Iron Man, then I had to do a 24-hour mountain bike race, then I had to do that race solo, then I had to, like I just started this, I did transfer the addiction, but the difference was inherent in all of those activities were things that sort of at a foundational level helped me start to heal. And years later, I realized that the real magic of those activities wasn't the finish line, it was actually the people I was training with. It was those relationships that was really the bedrock of my sort of support network. So those, you know, when you're on my-

Would any of them recovering addicts as well or? Well, funny you ask because one was my best friend and climate partner, Ben Court. You know, we met at a climate gym that he was a manager at, started talking about climbing and realized we were both in recovery. Then we started spending our days in Rocky Mountain National Park, climbing together. And then my other friend who I climbed with was a clinical social worker.

No kidding. So she just started to put the pieces together that as a social worker, what she realized the magic was was not necessarily getting that kid that she was supporting to the appointment he had to go to. It was the drive there and the time that they got to talk while they were doing that sort of like parallel activity of just sitting in the car, listening to music, talking about life.

That was the most therapeutic part of that experience. And it's the same thing that Ben and I were having in the mountains. We were tied into a climb and wrote, we were climbing. We weren't really talking about our addiction story, but we were building new identity and new memories together that started to eventually push out those old negative feelings. What you just said is amazing. that started to eventually push out those old negative feelings. What you just said is amazing.

Do you know Bob Zacchio? I don't know. In Bob Zacchio, the therapy under a hood? All right, when you get an extra 45 minutes, go back to an army and normal folks library. We've only been out a year, but early was an interview I did with a guy named Bob Zacchio, who is a social worker therapist and was working specifically with kids from

the same background we're talking about in your life right now. Yeah. Oftentimes doing court ordered therapy, which he found completely useless. Yep. found completely useless. Yeah. And so very frustrated and wanting to make a difference. One day, he just one of his kids showed up that he's supposed to work with that's dealing with addiction and drugs and alcohol and all kinds of stuff.

And he says, come on. And he took him out in the parking lot and he taught him how to cast her real. Why was she talking? Why was just talking to him? And he found out these kids that don't want to talk to me. If I take them out of the office and just interact with them, they open up. Anyway, seven years later, he now has therapy at auto mechanic shops. He has therapy at screenshots. He has therapy fishing, he has therapy and auto mechanic shops. Yes, therapy at screen shops. He has therapy fishing, he has therapy and all of these things.

And he he does the therapy to work that needs to be done with kids, but he doesn't do it in office. He does it while they're engaged in something that's interesting. And the rate of his success of getting kids on the right track is like 12 times that of other social workers. And anyway, it's a great story, but he said exactly what you just said, that it wasn't the therapy that mattered. It was the time to and from therapy and the actual real live organic interaction that

made the difference. Yeah. Yeah. And that sound, that's very similar to what the Phoenix became, is that we just realized it by sharing this, I think of it this way. It's like we would kind of go out climbing and face this greater adversity together and get back from that safely because we relied on each other and our own gifts, you know, in that setting.

And then Ben and I would be closer in supporting each other because we went through that together. So when I had a tough day in life, I could turn to him because that vulnerability had already been created. And I think that the Phoenix was just an idea about how we could do that at scale.

And that concludes part one of my conversation with Scott Strode and you don't want to miss part two that's now available. As we dive into how Scott turned the idea of recovery program and community into the movement that it is today. Guys, together we can change this country, but it starts with you. I'll see you in part two. One of the best shows of the year,

according to Apple, Amazon, and Time, is back for another round. We had a big bear of a man who was called Mal Evans, who was our loater, and he said, will you pass the salt and pepper? And I miss her then. I said, what? Salt and pepper. Listen to season two of McCartney, a life in lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. your main new pre and so many, many more. Storytime with Legendary Jerry is an old to the south. Southern Rap has had the game unlocked for years and now I'm telling you legendary stories of how we did it. Listen to Storytime with Legendary Jerry on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This past season on my podcast, Here's the Thing.

I spoke with more actors, musicians, policymakers, and so many other fascinating people, like Jazz bassist Christian McBride. Jazz is based on improvisation, but there's very much a form to it. Most pop songs have a very strict structure, verse-verse course, whereas jazz, you get a melody with a set of chord changes. You play that melody with those chord changes. Now, once you do that, you have a conversation based on that melody and those chord changes.

So it's kind of like giving someone a topic and say, okay, talk about this. And comedian and actor Caroline Ray, you're most comfortable when you're on stage. Probably. You really love it. Yeah, I feel like I always think my standup is a dinner party. I know what I'm going to make. You're most comfortable when you're on stage. Probably. You really love it. Yeah, I feel like I always think my stand-up is a dinner party. I know what I'm gonna make. You're my guess. I don't know what's gonna happen.

But the thing about stand-up that amazes me is it's only gonna happen in that moment in time. Even if we film it, it's never gonna be what it feels like live. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.