An Army of Normal Folks - Tara Sundem: Helping Babies With Opioid Withdrawal (Pt 1)

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

Tara is a NICU nurse who experienced the epidemic of newborns withdrawing from their moms’ drugs that they got in the womb. And she also experienced that they weren’t given great treatment. Tara stumbled into a solution that’s better for everyone (babies, parents, taxpayers), and her Hushabye Nursery has helped 695 infants & their families!Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, I had one person tell me I couldn't do it and my husband's like, whoops, why did you say that? I invite him, I invite him every year to our little event. I'm like, come on over. He's never been. So you're, you can't do it. So you said. We're going to, that's what's right.

I mean, honestly, I don't, I didn't know what I didn't know. I'm not a business person. So I had no idea how to do any of that. I just knew that care could be better. And if it was my baby, I would have demanded the closet. I would have said that it my baby's going in the closet no matter what. And that just, it's what's right. And what needed to be done. I think the tagline of this thing is, terror changes the world by throwing babies in closets. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly! Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis in the last part. It somehow led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Y'all, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people

in nice suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks, us. Just you and me deciding, hey, you know what? I can help. That's what Tara Sundum, the voice we me deciding, hey, you know what? I can help. That's what Tara Sundum, the voice we just heard, has done. Tara is a NICU nurse in the Phoenix area who experienced firsthand the growing epidemic of newborns, get this, withdrawing from their mom's drugs

that they got in the womb. And she also experienced that they weren't being given great treatment that helped them recover. Tara stumbled into a solution that was better for everyone, the babies, the moms and our tax dollars. I cannot wait for you to meet Tara and her Hushabod Nursery right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. It started with a backpack at the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games. A backpack that contained a bomb.

While the authorities focused on the wrong suspect, a serial bomber planned his next attacks. Two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar. But this isn't his story. It's a human story. One that I've become entangled with. I saw as soon as I turned the corner, basically someone bleeding out. The victims of these brutal attacks were left to pick up the pieces, forced to explore the gray areas between right and wrong, life and death.

Their once ordinary lives, and mine, changed forever. It kind of gave me a feeling of pending doom. And all the while, our country found itself facing down a long and ugly reckoning with a growing threat. Far right, homegrown, religious terrorism. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, though, the Olympics are underway. It's useless to talk about it as a thing that's happening in the future when it's happening in the present.

It's happening now. And what's happening now is our podcast, Two Guys, Five Rings, is a phenomenon. And while real medals are being handed out in Paris, we're giving out our fake medals here. Two Guys, Five Rings, Matt Bowen, and the Olympics. Who are we watching in this Olympic Games? I mean, I'm watching Simone Biles. I'm watching her go higher and higher and higher with every bounce. Sha'Carri's about to run faster than you or I or anyone has ever seen. I'm rooting for the girls and the boys and everybody under the Seine River. Under the Seine, over the Seine, within the waters of the San, all of them.

Follow the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform, and watch and listen to every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games now through August 11th on NBC and Peacock, and for the first time ever on the iHeartRadio app. Hey guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of There and Gone South Street. In this series, we follow the case ever on the iHe there was foul play. I'm excited to share that you can now get access

to all new episodes of There and Gone South Street, 100% ad free and one week early with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple podcasts. So don't wait, head to Apple podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Tara Sundum, welcome to Memphis. Thank you for having me.

How was this kind of rainy? How was the flight in? Oh, it's perfect. Really? Yeah. Not bad. No, going into Arizona, it's really rocky, but coming in here was easy. Yeah, it's good. Where did you fly through? Dallas, I guess?

Yes. Yeah. Phoenix, Dallas, Memphis. And then, I guess, Memphis, Dallas, Phoenix, back out. Exactly. I really appreciate you coming to spend the day with us. Can't wait to talk about, I think I'm saying it right, Hushabye. Yes. talk about, I think I think I'm saying it right, Hushabye. Yes, I should buy a nursery. And all of it. And you know, I found myself as I was learning your background. I have so many questions and I can't wait to get to them. But first, who's

Janelle Jones? She's my PR and development manager. When she emailed us she was not who is Doreen Jones? Her mom. Jones. She's my PR and development manager. When she emailed us, she was not. Who is Doreen Jones? Her mom. Her mom. Yes. I was like, when I saw Doreen, I'm like, I don't know who that person is. And so yeah, I hear very persistent. Well, a shout out to Doreen and Janelle Jones, apparently consistent listeners

and followers of an army of normal folks. The reason we found out about you was Doreen, who said, we need to get this care model nationwide. Please consider having Hushabah Nursery in Phoenix, Arizona on your show. It is truly changing the cycle. Thank you so much. I'm a dedicated listener to your podcast and love everything you stand for.

Janelle said, hi there, big fan of the podcast. I want to suggest someone for you to talk to on your show. Her name is Tara Sundum, and she is founder of One of a Kind Nursery in Phoenix for newborns who are born exposed to substances. Thanks for your consideration. I believe covering Tara's journey could create a lot of awareness around this growing issue.

So we have two fans, but so do you apparently. And that is how we found out about you. So for all of our listeners, we're not kidding. If you tell us about folks, Alex will find out about them. And Tara's living proof that organically we're starting to find our guests through our listeners, which is very cool. That is really cool.

It is cool. So, before we get to Hushabod Nursery and these wonderful things, is it Janelle or Janella? Janelle. Janelle and Doreen have said about you. From where do you hail? Originally grew up in Hartford, South Dakota. It's close to Sioux Falls.

Hartford, South Dakota. I mean, that's like. Like 2,000 people, tiny little town. Yeah, but South Dakota is cool, right? It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Yeah. During the summer.

During the summer, during the winter. During the winter, not so much. Yeah. So yeah, you don't have to experience that, I don't guess. Yeah. So what, how'd you get to Phoenix? My family slowly but surely started to move and I was like- They said the hell with these winners.

Yeah. Yeah. And I graduated nursing school and said, yeah, I'm going. And never turned back. Graduated what? Nursing school. I graduated nursing school and said, yeah, I'm going. And never turned back. Nursing school. So once I graduated, got my nursing degree, then I-

Up there? In Mankato, Minnesota. Another booming metropolis, it sounds like. Exactly, exactly. Cold. Cold, freezing, freezing. And so your family basically migrated to Phoenix 30 years ago or so.

Yeah, about half of us Yeah, they are still in so once you graduated nursing school you moved to Phoenix. Yes. All right and Siblings any of that stuff? Oh, I have his hers and ours. So there's eight of us total Wow That is a Brady Bunch. Yes. Yes, that's incredible. Yeah. And then you moved to Phoenix. I guess you're in your 20s at that point. Yep. 23. 23. And I guess you start life as a nurse. Yeah. What was your first job? In the neonatal intensive care unit taking care of babies. That was your first job? My very, very first job. How do they prepare you for that? My very very first job. How did I prepare you for that? I thought I wanted to do pediatrics and I wanted to do Pete's ICU like sick kids and I just got lucky and

my kind of a goofy story and you can tell me to not go here. No I want to hear it. No it's what's we got to establish who you are. I went down to Arizona not knowing you know really what Phoenix was and I interviewed like at 11 places and went to Tucson which is like a two-hour drive I had no idea how far it was I'm from South Dakota I'm like I can drive that far not a big deal and did interviews down there every time I went into an interview, they they scheduled an interview, but they would be like, we have no openings. Thanks so much and turn me around. And my husband and I my boyfriend at the time and I went

to an ASU baseball game. And I was chilly and I was wearing my Mankato stay sweatshirt. And all of a sudden this guy comes down. And he's like, you wouldn't happen to be Tara Wagner. That was my maiden name. And I'm like, uh. That's weird. I was like, um, yeah. And he's like, my wife's up here

and you have an interview, I think, with her tomorrow. And I was like, oh. So I went up, like schmoozed as best as I possibly could. And at the end she goes, I mean, it sat there the whole game. And at the end she's like, when you come in for your interview, make sure that they know I want to talk with you.

I'm like, oh, okay. So going for an interview again, walk in, they're like, thank you so much for coming. We don't have any openings. We'll keep your name on file. And I'm like, and I turned back around and I'm like, Carol Richie said she wanted to like talk with me and I got the job.

Really? That was, had I not worn my sweatshirt to the baseball game that night before, I don't know where I would have been. That is crazy. Kind of like divine intervention. Yeah, yeah. So you start in the neo-

Neonatal intensive care unit. So the closest thing I have to that is here in Memphis, we have St. Jude, which is a worldwide brand now. And it's an incredible place where children with cancer and diseases that nobody even can identify some of them, St. Jude takes them and not a single family or child pays one dime for their care. And their care is the best in the world.

I don't know how nurses and doctors, it takes an enormously special person in my mind to do that care because many of those children they lose, because they're dealing with cancers and diseases that other people can't even identify. And the care and the compassion and the love they show these cancer ridden children from the United States, but from as far away as Malaysia and Nepal and points you've ever heard of.

And they wrap their arms around the families and these kids and they try to nurse them back to health but they lose a lot. And how you keep a smile on your face every day looking at a child that you know may not make it and is certainly suffering in a lot of pain is always been a conundrum to me because I don't know that I could pull that off. Maybe I'm too soft, maybe I I don't know that I could pull that off. Maybe I'm too soft.

Maybe I just don't have that skill set. So as a 23 year old kid, which is what you were then, having just graduated from nursing school, going into neonatal intensive care, you're dealing with sick, sick, sick babies, some of which won't make it some of which, which is amazing to me that a human being can be six inches long, but they can. Yeah. How did you deal with that? At first? Was that? Did you? Did you have to develop a skill set, a personal skill set? Forget the professional skill set of the actual care,

the medical care. I'm talking about how do you care for yourself in an environment like that. Well, I'm a believer, so God, a lot. I mean, trying to fathom why things happen. For the most part in the neonatal intensive curing, you know, when a baby passes, they're suffering and it's I look at it as that's where they need to go. They need to go to heaven. That's

where they need to go because they're struggling too much with us. Now, are there times where you go, how did that happen? Everything was good, baby was great. I had a baby that I took care of. Mom and dad, they were teens. They lived probably three hours away. They would go to school during the week. They would come every Friday night. They would go to school during the week. They would come every

Friday night. They would leave every Sunday, but they were there and they were engaged and they were great. And their baby was born probably four months premature and got to know them and just loved them and loved on their baby while they weren't there. And it's like we're doing good. And we thought on Christmas Eve that maybe we was going home on the 26th of December and on Christmas night got sick and we called and I'm like, you need to get here now. And she passed. And when you have that, I mean, that's a lot of praying and going, okay, why did this happen? But for the most part you go It's it's meant to be then you have the the kids that come back and visit you and you you're like Oh my goodness one of my dear friends her she's also a neonatal nurse practitioner and

Her grandbaby was born like size of a dollar bill. The size of a dollar bill tiny. What how how premature is the size of a dollar? He was 26 weeks. But I honestly think he was like 24 weeks looking at him. 24 weeks. Six months. Yep. He was tiny. And I remember her, you know, coming to tell us, you don't come meet him. And I'm like, okay. And I'm like, oh God, this is gonna be a long time that we're gonna care for him.

And now he's, I think he's 17 and about six, two. He's skinnier than skinny, but smart, like honor society and doing great. Now the whole time he was in the NICU, his mom, I worked, or his grandma, I worked side by side and we have to literally tell her to get out. It's like, this is, he's not your patient. Don't tell me what you want me to do with them. I know what I'm doing. You just, your grandma. And you get those rewards. I get Christmas cards and you're like, look at that, they're great.

So I think that it outweighs, it teeters there. Don't you experience the pain of parents who lose a child? Oh my gosh, yes. You could tell I was like, okay, I'm gonna get tearful here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm getting tears. We have four healthy, beautiful children that we experienced

absolutely no trouble with other than adolescents through about now. But as infants, we experienced no, you know, and I was stupid and young and Lisa and I didn't know what we were doing. We had four kids in four years and still don't know how it happened, but we never had to experience any of that. And I look back on it now and I just, I just don't even know how as a parent you deal with a child and that situation and then as a nurse who invests in the child and I guess you invest in the

Absolutely the parents even more. I that's who you end up like loving you you've fallen in love with the baby But it's the parents that you just really get to know that was my mind when a child passes They have to be just absolutely distraught. Oh, yes. And so you have to Yeah, so initially when I Became a nurse my aunt and my stepmom, were nurses and they were very like, you never really saw them cry. And I'm a crier. I mean, I see somebody cry. I don't even know why they're crying. But here comes the tears. I'm gonna cry. And I remember the first time that I had a baby that was

passing and I was trying to not cry and it came out like ugly tears, you know it got to that point and The family wrote me a letter and said thank you for caring and I was like, okay I'm gonna cry whatever I want to cry and it just makes them go so Their little one made a difference to me Like it made a difference to me, like it made a difference to them. Where in your upbringing did this empathy you have come from, do you think? Because it's very real.

You can see it in your face when you talk about it. Well, I think all of my brothers and sisters, I think we're all pretty caring. My dad, my dad was a large animal vet. Really? But I would not say. In the Dakotas. In the Dakotas.

Who would've thought? Yeah, with ranchers. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I don't know that he was, I don't think any of my siblings would say that he was soft at all. Maybe later on he was, but he, yeah. I wouldn't have said that, but I think we all,

for the most part, are gentle. Hmm. We'll be right back. It started with a backpack at the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games. A backpack that contained a bomb. While the authorities focused on the wrong suspect, a serial bomber planned his next attacks.

Two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar. But this isn't his story. It's a human story. One that I've become entangled with. I saw as soon as I turned the corner, basically someone bleeding out. The victims of these brutal attacks were left to pick up the pieces, forced to explore the gray areas between right and wrong, life and death. Their once ordinary lives, and mine, changed forever.

It kind of gave me a feeling of pending doom. And all the while, our country found itself facing down a long and ugly reckoning with a growing threat. Far right, homegrown, religious terrorism. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Bowen, the Olympics are underway. It's useless to talk about it as a thing

that's happening in the future when it's happening in the present. It's happening now. And what's happening now is our podcast, Two Guys, Five Rings is a phenomenon. And while real medals are being handed out in Paris, we're giving out our fake medals here. Two Guys, Five Rings, Matt Bowen and the Olympics.

Who are we watching in this Olympic Games? I mean, I'm watching Simone Biles. I'm watching her go higher and higher and higher with every bounce. Sha'Carri's about to run faster than you or I or anyone has ever seen. I'm rooting for the girls and the boys and everybody under the San River.

Under the San, over the San, within the waters of the San, all of them. Follow the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform and watch and listen to every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games now through August 11th on NBC and Peacock and for the first time ever on the iHeartRadio app. Hey guys, I'm Adreah Gunning, host of There and Gone South Street. In this series, we follow the case of Richard Patrón and Daniel Imbo, two people who went missing in Philadelphia nearly two decades ago and have never been found.

Unlike most cases, there is not a single piece of physical evidence connected to this crime. But the FBI knows there was foul play. I'm excited to share that you can now get access to all new episodes there and gone South Street, 100% ad free and one week early with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple podcasts. So don't wait. head to Apple podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. So now you're 23, getting your, earning your stripes. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And I guess you get married around this time, huh? 23, getting your, earning your stripes.

Yeah. Really? Yeah. And I guess you get married around this time, huh? Yep. A year later. Got it. Who's he? Who's this guy? Met him, my senior year of high school, he was going to college and he ended up moving to, or going to Mankato.

So then I followed him a year later and he ended up moving to or going to Mankato. So then I followed him a year later and he ended up moving out to Phoenix before I did a year earlier and so followed out. It seems like you stalked him a little. A little bit. A little bit. And actually initially very much so. He had a his sister was a 25th anniversary cruise gift. So there was 25.

Holy smokes. 20 year, 20, 20 ish year difference. I guess 18 is what it was. And he, at the very beginning of us dating, he would tell me that he had to babysit and I thought he really had to babysit. And then I find later on his mom's like never made him babysit So yeah, I really was the what's his name Chad hey Chad the gigs up dude you got caught So you and Chad get married and start a family your own yes, so you've got have two boys They're 22 and 25. Colin Carson. Got it. And

what's Chad do for a living? Just a I see a place with people's money. He's a certified financial planner. Got it. Yeah. So here you are. Move to Phoenix, you you've got your career. Your husband's doing well, he's got a business, you've got your two kids, I mean, you're doing life. I'm doing good. You're doing good. Yeah.

A really nice life, but, and I don't mean, but unremarkable. Yeah. Nothing, you know, you're not going crazy. And then as I read this and you're, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but take us through it, you start seeing the advent and a greater number over and over again of infants in the NCIU. What?

NICU. NICU. NICO. NICU. Is it NICU? NICU. NICU, NICO. NICU, NICO. NICU. NICU. NICU. NICU. That's how people say it. All right.

The intensive care unit for babies that are just born. You see them, you start seeing more and more of what? Babies coming in and withdrawing and being with us for months at a time. Withdrawing. Being opiate exposed for the most part or any other substance. Back when we started 2017-ish, 16, it was mostly heroin that you were seeing babies exposed to. And one mom explained to me withdrawal as being the worst flu and migraine times 100. And so when she like dumbed that down for me, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's exactly what we

what we see with the baby, you know, vomiting, you mean a mom that was an addict, said that when she got all four drugs, whatever it was heroin or oxy or heroin, that the withdrawals were the worst flu and migraine you could ever imagine times 100. Yes. How long does that last? For a baby, a few months.

A few months? It can. With Hush-Bye, we've made it much better. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no months withdrawing in the hospital. So you're telling me this infant gets brought into the world and from day one they are in immense pain? Usually about 24 hours and then they start withdrawing. Well, oh, it takes a while before the withdraws happen. Yeah, usually about 24, 36 hours. Let's go to the science of,

I mean, it's a terrible term, but it's a crack baby. It's a baby that's addicted to whatever the mother is addicted to. So the baby's born dependent on the substance that it was exposed to. So where does this term crack baby come from? So I've been doing this for 32 years. I never, in Arizona, when I started, I never saw a baby, a crack baby.

I saw those on the news. Addicted to crack or whatever. Yeah, I, I didn't see it. But it's the same principle, isn't it? It's, it is, I guess, it is. Crack, heroin, oxy, whatever. Yeah, heroin, any opiate is what you see them withdraw from. Now with cocaine, babies don't withdraw per se.

We don't see them. If I have a baby that mom was struggling with cocaine use, you don't see a baby go through withdrawal. So what is the effect with them? Probably developmental delays later on, but there's a risk of preterm delivery of a placental abruption, which means the inside the baby, the placenta pulls away from the mom,

the wall and they could bleed out. Those are the things for cocaine. So if you have those things happen, usually we're doing a drug screen and going, Okay, what were they doing before? Because that's really that's one of the biggest risks. But with an opiate, they're going to withdraw just like an adult would withdraw. So let's talk about the science of that real quick. I am a football coach and a lumberman. Yeah. So I don't know the first clue what's going on inside our bodies. And I sure

don't know what's going on inside a woman's body. But I have a lot of machinery at work. So I seem to correlate everything to machines and the body is a machine. Yeah. So let me get this right and correct me where I'm wrong. A woman ingests an opiate. All right. And it gets into her system. And then from her system, it travels down the umbilical cord and then feeds into the baby's system. Correct. So when a when a pregnant woman is doing oxy or heroin or whatever. Fentanyl. Fentanyl is a big one. I don't see heroin.

Okay so fentanyl. Ultimately whatever she's ingesting ends up traveling the umbilical cord into the baby's system. And so the baby is now high, or the fetus. The baby is exposed. So, if you think of an addict, so I love my Diet Coke. I want my Diet Coke. I want my Diet Coke. I want my Diet Coke. You know, it's like three o'clock in the afternoon. I want my Diet Coke and my peanut M&Ms and I'm a happy camper.

You and I, ho, high five. I love Diet Coke and peanut M&Ms. It's the worst thing for a fat guy on the face of the planet. And I have to fight it off. And then my wife over July, Lisa, July 4th our business shuts down. And so she, that's, we shut down for maintenance and Lisa always comes in over July 4th and over Christmas break. And she gives the office a really good cleaning and she'll put a new lamp on a table

and change light bulbs and really clean up. So just this, you know, past July 4th, we were doing that. And she got two big jars. Here I am, I've lost 38 pounds and I'm trying, yeah. Thank you very much. Before I just die of a massive coronary and need to drop some weight. And so she fills up two jars,

one of Dum Dums and Starbursts and the other of Peanut M&M's. They look pretty. There's seven pounds of Peanut M&M's outside the door of peanut M&Ms. Because they look pretty. There's seven pounds of peanut M&Ms outside the door of my office. And I have to walk, you talk about. Yeah, willpower. Willpower, so I get it.

So you've got this Diet Coke, peanut M&M addiction. You know, like I want that. You crave it, you want it. A person with opiate use disorder, AKA addiction to an opiate. Hold on, opiate use disorder, AKA addiction to an opiate. Hold on, opiate use addiction disorder? Yeah, opiate use disorder. So like, if I have diabetes, I have diabetes mellitus,

that's the diagnosis. Someone that's addicted to opiates has opiate use disorder. And it's because it is a disease. It's not a, the brain changes. You're not giving yourself, after you've taken an opiate, your body doesn't make dopamine. Dopamine is our happy juice. Dopamine is when, you know, people say you go for a run and you hit that runner's high. I've never met it. But when people run and they get that runner's high, they release dopamine and they're feeling good. They're like, Oh my gosh, I feel great. Just like that's how

that's how I feel when we pick up a first down on a team. Yes. Yes, it is. It's like, like, if it's third and 12 and I call a play that our guys pick up first down, I mean, I feel like elated. Yes. And that's your happy juice. And so when someone's taken an opiate for now, it's showing for like three days, if you're just taking for three days, your body can stop making that dopamine forever. It can for enough forever, but for a while it can it can it can depress it. And so some of us have that gene, I guess, I don't know, have that tolerance or tendency that could have a dependence on opiate, which would lead to an addiction. Meaning, you're not feeling good, so you're craving it. You know that if I take that,

I'm going to feel good immediately. I'll dumb it down even a little bit more. I had a girlfriend, we're at the gym working out and she had a ankle injury. She is a go-getter. After three days of being at home, she's like, I'm coming back to the gym. We're like, okay, you're going to roll around on that one scooter and she goes yeah I'm going to because I can't do this anymore I'm totally not myself I want to just scream and pull my

hair out and whatever I'm like huh and she's talking about how she's feeling and she's like I'm anxious I'm sweating I don't know what I'm doing. Three days for her three days of Percocet that was prescribed and She goes I've told myself I'm not taking it anymore because it's not helping and she was withdrawing No kidding. Yes, I go go home and just take it like a quarter and see she was immediately better She called me and she said, oh my. She got addicted in three days. Three days.

To Pockerset. Mm-hmm. And so like for me, when I realized, oh my gosh, something needs to be done, I had a mom that had three babies and then I met her on the third baby and the other two were out of home because she had a substance use disorder

and had lost them. And I was like, what happened after baby number two? She had a C-section. We sent her home with 30 days, a percocet. She took him as directed, and at 30 days, we didn't give her anymore. She's sick, vomiting, diarrhea, can't get up, has no happy juice, nothing. She doesn't feel good. And you're embarrassed to have

a brand new baby. Who are you going to tell that you're that you have an issue? And this is, you know, back then we didn't do much counseling. Now I counsel away. I'm like, if you can get away with ibuprofen or Tylenol or alternating the two, please do. Don't you don't need to pick up an opiate to do it. Now there are times that you need an opiate, but you also need to know the signs and symptoms of withdrawal, what that looks like. And if you are going to withdraw, having those interactions with your provider to go, I really am, I have a tolerance. We'll be right back.

It started with a backpack at the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games, a backpack at the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games. A backpack that contained a bomb. While the authorities focused on the wrong suspect, a serial bomber planned his next attacks. Two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar. But this isn't his story. It's a human story. One that I've become entangled with.

I saw as soon as I turned the corner, basically someone bleeding out. The victims of these brutal attacks were left to pick up the pieces, forced to explore the gray areas between right and wrong, life and death. Their once ordinary lives, and mine, changed forever. It kind of gave me a feeling of pending doom.

And all the while, our country found itself facing down a long and ugly reckoning with a growing threat. Far right, homegrown, religious terrorism. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Vaughn, the Olympics are underway. It's useless to talk about it as a thing that's happening in the future when it's happening in the present.

It's happening now. And what's happening now is our podcast, Two Guys, Five Rings, is a phenomenon. And while real medals are being handed out in Paris, we're giving out our fake medals here. Two Guys, Five Rings, Matt Bowen, and the Olympics. Who are we watching in this Olympic Games? I mean I'm watching Simone Biles. I'm watching her go higher and higher and higher with every bounce. Sha'Carri's about to run faster than you or I or anyone has ever seen. I'm ready for the girls and the boys and

everybody under the sand river. Under the sand, over the sand, within the waters of the sand, all of them. Follow the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform and watch and listen to every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games now through August 11th on NBC and Peacock and for the first time ever on the iHeartRadio app. Hey guys, I'm Andrei Gunning, host of There and Gone South Street. In this series, we follow the case of Richard Patrone and Daniel Imbo, two people who went missing in Philadelphia nearly two decades ago and have never been found. Unlike most cases, there is not a single piece of physical evidence connected to this crime.

But the FBI knows there was foul play. I'm excited to share that you can now get access to all new episodes there and gone South Street 100 percent ad free and one week early with an I Heart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts. Search for I Heart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. So my question then is, does the science tell us that if an

that if I'm expected mother is ingesting opiates is the same thing happened to the fetuses dopamine production. You see what I'm saying? I don't I don't know that it does the dopamine production for a fetus the fetus is born dependent. So they're not like craving it. They're not going, give me this this drug to make me feel better They have no idea they have no they're just even an eight month even an eight month No, they just know they're withdrawing. They don't know that that if I take this it's gonna make me feel better Okay, so craving okay, so then the the child is birthed

All right, and the stuff is still in their system at first. And then when the stuff finally works its way through the system, that's why you're saying 24 hours later, this infant is actually experiencing the same withdrawals that an addicted, I don't know all the right nomenclature, but an addicted person would be experiencing if they drop their drugs. Yeah. And so this is painful. This head. Oh, this head oak and flu like symptoms times 100 are going on for this one day old. So what is this child doing? What What are the symptoms for the child? Are they also vomiting, vomiting, diarrhea, can't sleep, sweating, jittery shakes, fever, cold,

you know, they get hot, then they get cold. They can have seizures. It's it's hard to watch breaking. It is and we started child deserves to be introduced to the world on that shape. Yeah. Do the parents or the mother know what she's done to her baby? Yes, they absolutely know and they feel horrible.

Okay. So pre your world now. Yeah. The hospital treats us how we put babies in the neonatal intensive care unit So think of you have the worst flu and migraine and I am we're gonna go to AC DC together We're not gonna go to a rock concert Beeping, you know flashing lights really loud The neonatal intensive care unit bright lights beeping monitors To care for baby and you got a my brain So that beeping and those lights is intensified is what you're saying.

Yep. And we put them in that environment, because that's where we take care of sick babies. And what I found was that gosh, if I bring them into the closet, and I make it completely dark, which I did, I could get them calmed down. It was like, Oh, my gosh, maybe I don't need to give you an opiate to slowly wean you off. So is that what the, that's what I'm saying. What do they do to treat them?

We give them morphine or methadone. So different places. You give a baby methadone or morphine? I guess that's the only pharmaceutical available. Correct. And we do it every three hours. So prior to 2017, every baby that came into our neonatal intensive care unit, they were born opiate exposed, dependent, and going through that withdrawal process, we just,

as a practitioner, I'd write the order. Here's your morphine, 0.05 milligrams per kilo every three hours. And in 48 hours we'll look at you and see if we're going to decrease it. Does the morphine chill the baby out from screen? It kind of numbs them. It makes them go to sleep. Yeah, makes them be quiet.

So methadone is a medication, a prescribed medication that is also an opiate. It's used most commonly for people, adults for opiate use disorder. So those that are struggling with substance uses that is an opiate, we transition them and prescribe them methadone for them to be stable. Is that a lower grade? Is it like a pyram be stable. Is that a lower grade? Is it like a pyramiding down?

Is that a lower grade opiate? I mean, how does going from one opiate to another help? I don't understand that. Methadone is the gold standard of care, but you can be stable on methadone and not be under the influence, if that makes sense. So like with diabetes. Well, then do you get addicted and you have stichomethadone and not be under the influence. Oh, if that makes sense. So like with diabetes, then do you get addicted and you have to come with it on your

own? And you you have to titch down. You do you have to titch down. But if you think of it this way. So think of diabetes. I, I have, I way overweight, I go into the hospital, I'm in a coma. They check my blood sugar sky high, I get diagnosed with diabetes, then they keep me in the hospital for a week, meet with the dietician, get me on insulin, do everything. They're like, okay, this is what we're going to do. They're going to stabilize you.

They're going to get you with nutritionists, all of these different caregivers to make sure that you live and you do good. You may be on your insulin forever from that point on or you may go home, work out, lose weight, change your diet and slowly you take your insulin away. Someone with a weight use disorder, you overdose, you show up in the emergency room and what we do and we still do to this day is we give them Narcan, we revive them and we let them go. We don't meet with the social worker. We don't meet with the addiction specialist.

We don't get them started on methadone. We just go, you're not a great person. Go. We saved your life. You're lucky. We saved your life. Go. We'll see you next week. And that's for tomorrow. That's what's gonna happen. I think we're now getting better at learning to have those conversations that are really difficult,

which really they're not that difficult if we didn't have such a stigma against it. But for someone with opioid use disorder, the gold standard of care is getting them stable on medication assisted treatment or medications for opiate use disorder, which most commonly methadone or suboxone, there's vivitrol. There's different ways to get them transitioned to that. So you get them transitioned on those medications, they can parent successfully, they can work, they

can the only thing you cannot do being prescribed methadone is conduct a train and be an airline pilot. That's it. Everything else you could I could be on it right now and you wouldn't have a clue if it's at an appropriate dose. Now, here and there, may I go out may I go down I may go up I may go up, I may go down. It just depends on what my hormones are doing. You never know if you're under stress. As I want to maybe get off, I need to increase my behavioral health services. I need to make sure that I'm really getting to the trauma that maybe got me to where I

am right now. And you see those get off. I have a peer support that works with me right now and he's he's now on week four of being off. But I met him five years ago. And he was on methadone for five years. How does an infant do that though? An infant. So in Arizona, we use morphine. Other places in the country some use methadone. Methadone you have to teeter off even slower. In Arizona we do it, you know, like you wean by 10 to 20% every couple days.

You just kind of see what their dose is, what they're gonna need and you go up and down and up and down. But what we've found is that if you put them in the right environment and a quiet, dark environment like I go in my basement when I don't feel good, I turn out the lights and if I fall asleep, please do not wake me up. When I wake up, hopefully I feel better when I have the flu. That's just like a baby when they're going through that withdrawal process. When they wake up, they need someone there immediately, not someone that is taking

care of this baby that's a pound that's going to die if they don't get to them versus this baby that's just going to scream. And in the NICU, this baby that's going to scream is not going to die. I will get to them, but I have to deal with the baby that's not breathing. So I just, I have the hardest time even thinking that babies are born into the world with this, but they are. Yeah. Well, let me, let me tell you, so, so someone that's struggling with, with substance use, if they go. Yeah. Well, let me tell you, so someone that's struggling with substance use, if they go cold turkey, so they're struggling with fentanyl use, this happens all the time.

Families come in, they're like, send me to detox. Just take me off. They're at risk for preterm delivery because it's so stressful. It's such a hard process to detox. So it is not a recommended, it is not the gold standard of care for a pregnant mom with opioid use disorder to go cold turkey. What the gold standard of care is, is to transition her onto methadone and you can be on methadone and be prescribed methadone for years and have babies that are still going to go through this process. Are the parents awful parents? They're not awful

parents. They have a brain disease, a chronic illness that yeah, that medication, their side effects. I have epilepsy, I have a brain disease, there are side effects to my medication that I take care of every day that my kids could have had midline defects from my medication. But did anyone say you shouldn't have babies? No. Did I do roulette? But I did and thank goodness they were okay. Kind of the same, not mine is more, people go, oh, darn, you have epilepsy. But someone with opioid use disorder, we look at them like you made really bad choices.

And that concludes part one of my conversation with Terrace Undom. And you don't want to miss part two that's now available to listen to as the story of Hushabye Nursery. It's coming. Together, guys, we can change this country. But it starts with you. I'll see you in part two. Back in 96, Atlanta was booming with excitement around hosting the Centennial Olympic Games.

And then, a deranged zealot willing to to kill for a cause, lit a fuse that would change my life and so many others forever. Rippling out for generations. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, Bowen, the Olympics are underway. It's useless to talk about it as a thing that's happening in the future when it's happening in the present. And what's happening now is our podcast, Two Guys, Five Rings is a phenomenon. Two Guys, Five Rings, Matt Bowen and the Olympics. Follow the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or your favorite podcast platform and

watch and listen to every moment of the 2024 Parasolipic Games now through August 11th on NBC and Peacock and for the first time ever on the iHeartRadio app. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all new podcast There and Gone. It's a real life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why? Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.