An Army of Normal Folks - Tim Sittema: Money Isn’t The Only Scorecard (Pt 2)

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

After decades working as a traditional real estate developer, one day Tim Sittema was shocked by a study that ranked his city of Charlotte as dead last in upward mobility out of the top 50 cities and he couldn’t unsee this reality. Tim felt called to dedicate 50% on a type of development that you would never do if your goal was to make money: affordable housing. He’s since built around 500 affordable housing units, with another 500 on the way! Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everybody is Bill Courtney with an Army of Normal folks and we continue with part two of our conversation with Tim Sedema right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. My name is Theo Henderson, hosting creator of the podcast called Wee-in-House. My lived experience in house-sitness is extensive. I was one of over 75,000 experiencing house-sitness on a given night in Los Angeles. Here's a simple truth. House-sitness is everywhere. It affects over half a billion people in the United States alone.

Wee-in-House will explore the sensitive strategy of displacement from the perspective of the in States alone. We, the N House, will explore the sense of the strategy of displacement from the perspective of the N House. On my podcast, we're going to cover far more of my story. We're going to debunk the MIPS around house systems. We're going to remember and humanize the community who have passed by spotlighting house systems remembrance day. More importantly, we're going to look at ways we criminalize the N House. Because if you can demonize them, you can criminalize them. Unlike the mainstream media's way of speaking over at VUNHOWS, my podcast centers their voices in the conversation.

House Assistant is not a monolith. Listen to VUNHOWS on I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Prepare to venture to the darkest, most haunted locations once again. The most frequent report is that someone was following you out of that ward. As your host, Amy Bruney, I'm ready to take you on a spine tingling journey through the unknown, where the line between the living and the dead blurs. Unearth the historical untold stories of the haunted places we explored, and hear from real witnesses

to the unexplainable phenomena within them. About four o'clock in the morning it felt like the hand of God touched the castle. The whole thing just shook. Race yourself for a supernatural journey unlike any other. Whether you count yourself as a believer or skeptic, a fan of true crime and mystery,

or you just love a good ghost story. Haunted Road has something for you. Listen to Haunted Road, season five on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all, and for millions of Americans there is no greater unknown than what to do when faced with an Alzheimer's diagnosis. My name is Dana Torito, and my podcast The Memory Whisperer takes a closer look at Alzheimer's disease and those affected by it.

Like many of you, I've experienced the disease firsthand. I've been an advocate and care partner for decades and have written extensively about the subject. Each week, I'll talk to people who've been personally affected by the disease and learn how they cope with it. Folks like TV personality, Lisa Gibbons. Action is the antidote for fear. And nursing dementia researcher, Dr. Feyron Epps.

We no longer can be silent. We have to be what we have to share our experiences so we can help each other and learn from each other. Listen to the memory whisperer on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Why can't we do this in every city, bro? You know, I think you said in an earlier, earlier podcast you talked about, you know, it takes an army of normal folks, you know, that the thought itself doesn't do it. I mentioned earlier, I'm a person of faith. I would say, you know, probably more forcefully,

that if you're a Christian in business, it actually doesn't matter whether you're in business or not, but if you're a Christian, this isn't an option. It's an obligation. If you have a gift, if you have resources, if you have a platform, that's what you're here for. You're called to surf. This is not an option. And, you know, I happen to be a real estate guy. You're a coach and a business person, owning a lumber yard and so on.

But there are firemen out there. There are teachers out there. There are obviously policemen out there, there are janners out there, all of us have an ability to improve the lives of other people. And as a believer, I would say it's not an opportunity, it's not only an opportunity, it's an obligation, that's what we're here for. We're called to serve. And that's a far cry from believe like me, you're going to hell. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, I think, and I'm a Christian too, I think we Christians have done ourselves a disservice over many years with an unfortunate narrative that is believe like me, or you're doomed, believe like me, you're doomed. And it's I love hearing what you're saying because there's people listening that aren't

Christians and are Jewish and agnostic or Muslim or Hindu and I don't want them to think that because we're Christians, we don't invite them to the same table we eat at. Unfortunately, we've done our deserves a disservice because there's a snared about there that says, if I'm a man of faith, you think of me, you either think like me or you're doomed and you're right. The whole point behind Christianity is Christ came to serve us. And if we're going to be Christ like, we're called to serve others. Yeah, we're not going to lead with judgment. That's not it. It's not what it's about. That's not what it's about. We talked earlier about, you know, some of the things the public sector does haven't been the most effective and efficient. Well, I would say the same

thing about churches and the faith community. Unfortunately, I would too. Yeah, unfortunately, it's healthy to say on this forum, so that those listening to us that aren't Christians, don't be put off our faith. All we're saying is we're called to serve. And we invite anybody of any faith to serve with us. Yeah, that's exactly right. Why don't you get emotional when I talk about the kids?

Yeah, I, I think it's just a, it's such a rich feeling to know that you're making a difference. And I'm, you know, I'm a, people call me a hard-ass business guy, but deep down I'm a I'm a softy and and see in the impacts where the rubber hits the road. I think, you know, I go to sleep, you know, at night, knowing that, you know, I'm trying to do just a little bit more each day to try to improve the lives of others and what I need opportunity for me that I've been given so much and so to be able to use some of that for the benefit of others is a gift. I'll say another thing that there is a cost to this work. I mean the affordable housing, if you stack up, if somebody said I'm going to develop an affordable housing apartment community, or I'm going to develop a market rate apartment community, if you stack those two together, you would, and you did a financial analysis,

you would never build affordable housing because you take three times the risk and you make the fraction of the upside. So that's why there's so many more market rate apartments getting built and not affordable housing. But I like to say God keeps score differently than we do. You know, he has a different score card and how much money do you really need? You know.

Well, there's also what I said earlier, I mean, honestly, I believe this, there's a pragmatic side to this that we better get involved in this. We better get involved in this because what's it look like 40 or 50 years from now if we continue to gentrify and push people, you're gonna run out of places to push people eventually.

So like you said, pay me now, pay me later. I think it's an investment now in our grandchildren's future. That's exactly right. And, and you know, what's interesting is, you know, these people that are getting displaced move further and further away from their jobs, which is again, the cycle. It's the cycle. It's the cycle.

And transportation options aren't as, you make for this there. Costs and everything else and traffic and everything else that's generated from that. So, I mean, they're, you know, they're, I like to say, a formal housing is not a poor people problem. It's a quality of our community problem.

I mean, our whole community has a vested interest. Businesses companies have a vested interest in making sure. Some others got to buy your goods and services. That's right. And if you've got team members that have to drive an hour and a half to get to work every day, well, what kind of quality of life is that? And so, you know, it's speaks to the quality of the community, to the degree they care about affordable housing,

in my view. But affordable housing also shouldn't be a place where people move in, they get a discount of rent, and they stay there for the next 30 years. It really should be a stopping point on a upward mobility trajectory. Which again, happens when you cross cross in a mixed income, yeah. Yeah, when you when you provide mixed income, places, you provide children a healthy safe place

to learn. Yeah. And you quit making these families transient. Yeah. Then you have a chance for not to be a final point, but just a lift-off spot. That's exactly right. And I'll tell you, my life has been changed as a result of this. Maybe that's in part why I get emotional too. This is not just serving others. I have... Your perception of the world's changed, haven't it? Completely. The color of my friends have changed. I mean, I'm, I'm locking arms with people that I, you know, didn't, you know, even know a year or two or three ago.

And, and, you know, we don't agree on every topic. And if we talk politics, we'd probably disagree. But there's a lot of things we agree on. And those are the areas that we focus on. Yeah, it is interesting that politics and whether or not you watch Fox or CNN and where or how or if you worship starts really becoming less and less important when we get out of those compartments. Yeah.

And we just work for one another's humanity. Yeah, that's exactly right. And is it not the most rewarding experience that you could, you could never ever have met? You get a thousand times more out of it for your own self than you put in it? That's exactly, even we started this conversation with the young man's stip that I work with.

You know, stip in part is working with us because we're walking the talk. We're building affordable housing, we're building a affordable housing and he's a young guy that cares about that kind of stuff. He could go to work anywhere, but he's choosing to work and stay at our company. And I've got a bunch of other folks. Those are indirect benefits where when you start doing some of the stuff that we're talking about, there's no question that our company has benefited. Even though we may not be making money in

the affordable housing space, we benefit in other ways that that never would have expected. The culture. The company culture is I'd stack our culture against any other real estate company out there. We had great relationships with the elected officials in the city of Charlotte. And then we start doing affordable housing and the respect that we get because they know that we're doing it. We don't have to. You know, the reach, the ability to sit down with some of these folks and talk about policy issues that matter. It's... Again, it breaks down barriers. It breaks down barriers. It's, it's fent. And then, you know, they come in and say,

hey, I, you know, elected officials say, I think you need to do affordable housing in this development. And we say we can't. And here's why we, we, they know if we could, we would. And so, I mean, maybe, maybe that's also precursor to some of those guys in the public sector saying Well, let's change that That designation of that area. Yeah, let's make it where you can do it in that an interesting thought

Well, that's why I tell that that qualified census track That's what the QCT the QCT if there are are politicians listening, change it. I will build more. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, I mean, it takes, you know, a conversation like this to reach somebody that says, you know, I can do something about that. And it could and should be changed.

But, you know, like you said, it's a policy that's 50 years old and there's a lot of inertia in the government, so it's hard to make some of those changes. We'll be right back. Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all. And for millions of Americans, there is no greater unknown than what to do when faced with an Alzheimer's diagnosis. My name is Dana Torito, and my podcast The Memory Whisperer takes a closer look at Alzheimer's disease and those affected by it. Like many of you, I've experienced the disease firsthand. I've been an advocate and care partner for decades, and have written extensively about the subject. Each week, I'll talk to people who have been personally affected by the disease and learn how they cope with it.

Folks like TV personality, Lisa Gibbons. Action is the antidote for fear. And nursing dementia researcher, Dr. Feyron Epps. We no longer can be silent. We have to be what we have to share our experiences so we can help each other and learn from each other. Listen to the Memory Whisperer on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Prepare to venture to the darkest, most haunted locations once again. The most frequent report is that someone was following you out of that ward.

As your host, Amy Bruney, I'm ready to take you on a spine tingling journey through the unknown, where the line between the living and the dead blurs. Unearth the historical untold stories of the haunted places we explored and hear from real witnesses to the unexplainable phenomena within them. About four o'clock in the morning it felt like the hand of God touched the castle. The whole thing just shook. Race yourself for a supernatural journey unlike any other.

Whether you count yourself as a believer or skeptic, a fan of true crime and mystery, or you just love a good ghost story. Haunted Road has something for you. Listen to Haunted Road, season five on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. My name is Theo Henderson, Austin creator of the podcast called William House. My lived experience in house assistance is extensive. I was one of over 75,000 experiencing house assistance on a given night in Los

Angeles. Here's a simple truth. House assistance is everywhere. It affects over half a billion people in the United States alone. Wee-ian House will explore the sensitive strategy of displacement from the perspective of the in house. On my podcast, we're going to cover far more than my story. We're going to debunk the myths around house systems. We're going to remember and humanize the community who have passed by spotlighting house-us-ness

remembrance day. More importantly, we're going to look at ways we criminalize the unhoused. Because if you can demonize them, you can criminalize them. Unlike the mainstream media's way of speaking over at VUNHOWS, my podcast centers their voices in the conversation. Houseist list is not a monolith. Listen to VUNHOWS on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. So after six years to him, six years, right?

2001, no, more. Six, five, six, seven years. Yeah, seven started free and communities, yeah. Seven years, you know, I realize you're managing and spending a lot of time on getting projects done and the financial side of it and dealing with the government, getting tax credits and all, but along the way has there been kind of like one of your favorite interactions and stories that's kind of imprinted you as you've gone through this process. That's a great question and you're right. We just had a board retreat for Freedom

communities this last weekend and I've told our staff how jealous I was because They're the tip of the spear and they they get to have all these great interactions with With people and and I said so every board meeting every time we're together I want you to come up with some of your favorite stories So we get to be inspired by those But I was doing a little piece one one story comes of mine. I was doing a little piece There was a freelance journalist that had heard about this and the freedom communities and affordable housing and and so she called to ask if she could do a little three-minute news thing for one of the local news channels and we said sure and so

Hannah the executive director of freedom and myself met her and Hannah, the executive director of Freedom and myself met her and she filmed Hannah first and then she she filmed me and between the two of those little segments there was a African-American lady that was walking by asked her what she was doing and the and They said we're doing a little piece for the news and the lady said well. I'd like to be on it and You know, you don't really know what they're going to say. And I had not met this lady at the time. And so the journalist put her on the camera and asked her, you know, so how long have you been in this affordable housing development? And she started answering the questions. And well, what do you think

about it? And she went on to say, kind of gave her testimony that, I mean, it's changed her life. She, you know, didn't have stable housing before and now she's got it. She lives with a couple of her kids and she, and we had named the street that enters the development as blessing lane and she said, that's the deal, blessing lane. It, this is a blessing to me

and it was another one of those. So, so this journalist was telling me about that when she was filming me. And then this lady happened to be walking by and so she said, well, here she is right now. She introduced me and kind of caught it on camera and I teared up again when I talked to this lady, but she was, she talked about how her life had been changed

with just the opportunity to get this stable roof, um, keep her kids in school and the whole works. And so, um, and that's what I said, that's what it's all about. I mean, if you're able to do it one family at a time, um, and just get up every morning saying, let's, let's impact one family. And like you said, you did the math and could be thousands of people so far. But, and that one interaction is enough fuel for another five years of work. That's exactly right. I know it is. I don't have that.

I don't have that. I know it is. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that.

I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. I don't have that. the next day and that's exactly right. So and some days it's it's pretty hard and there's lots of challenges and frustrations but but you hear those stories and it makes you come back, makes you get up in the morning and I'm privileged to still have the energy level to do it. I hope the good Lord gives me the energy for a number of years yet. It's beautiful.

You know Tim, as I hear all of the numbers of units and everything else, you've used the term, you can't bore the ocean a couple of times and I've never heard that term before and I love it, I'm gonna stay lit from you. But there's also, you know, there's there's mom and pop shops out there who buy homes and fix them up who rent maybe 15 different properties. And the truth is, you don't have to be a big developer to do affordable housing, right? I think you learned, I think I read that you learned in Atlanta that you can also start small and do this kind of work.

You want to speak to that a little bit? Yeah, that's exactly. To encourage people that anybody can really do this. Yeah, I would say that, and I think I may have mentioned it earlier, that's one of the mistakes we made is you start getting into the work and the need is so great that you start taking on more than, you know, then you can handle. And, you know, the whole organization almost folded as a direct result of that because we, you know, we're trying to take on too much stuff. I would encourage you just the opposite. Start small. And there are some people that form these land trusts and they'll raise a few bucks and

they'll buy a house. The land trust will own a house and they'll discount the rent and they'll keep that house affordable, you know, for the long term. And then they'll go raise some funds and buy a second house. You don't have to be building 180 unit apartment communities to start with. You can you can start at a at a much more molecular level, I guess, to do this. But, you know, it was kind of interesting. One of the first staff members we hired is still with us, Cynthia Scott. She's African American lady, just a beautiful person, great story, grew up in poverty and Detroit.

And she's now in Charlotte and interviewing for a job to be one of these life coaches to work with these moms. And it's cool. Yeah, and so I'm talking to Cynthia. I'm a meatner for the first time, and she's just a delightful person. And I said, Cynthia, I gotta tell you, I don't know what the heck I'm doing with this.

You know, but you do. You do. I mean, you've lived it. You've got the lived experience that you went through poverty and you're married You got what I think three kids You're in Charlotte and you want to you know make a difference. How did you do it? How do we do it? How can we Dent generational poverty in West Charlotte and she said Tim. I don don't know. She said, all I can tell you is

one family at a time, you know, one family at a time, one person at a time, one family at a time. And so so I it's helpful for me to start with one family at a time just thinking about How do you change your community one family at a time? We interviewed a guy named Rodney Smith, who cut grass. And he was driving down the street. He's from Bermuda. Doesn't have a green card.

He was here on a student of visa and saw an old man struggling to cut his grass. He just got out of his car and went up to him and said, please let me finish cutting your grass for you. And the man was like, no, I got it. And he finally convinced him. His name is Mr. Brown. I can't believe I remember that part of the story, but that was man's name.

And Rodney cut his grass six years later, he has inspired over 10,000 kids to cut 50 yards across the world for free and has cut 200,000 yards for free. For the elderly, the single moms, the handicap and veterans. And he has, on eight different occasions, gone across the country and cut a different yard in every state in our country, including Alaska and Hawaii, to honor veterans, to honor breast cancer, to whatever and along the way gets all these kids to join the 50 yard challenge to cut. And they have cut literally a quarter of a million

yards for free for people who can afford to have the yard cut and physically can't do it. And it started with one yard, Mr. Brown. And it's the same story with everyone I talk. Don't let the ... don't let the magnitude of what any of you people, what any of you normal folks have, the eventuality of what your stories have become. Don't, listeners, don't, audience, folks, don't let that deter you of what it's developed to just start. It's the first yard. It's the first house.

It's the, it's, it's the first outreach that matters. And if you do it right with the right motive and the right compassion and the right effort, you never know where it's going to go. And Rodney Smith started with one yard and you start with one house. And I think it's an important to understand that. But if there's some big developers out there, you can start with one apartment building. That's exactly right, but I love that story. I think that's, I think this, you know, that captures the essence of it. In my younger years, I used to run a little bit.

I ran a marathon with one of my kids, and we ran every step together. And when you get tired, it's kind of a mental game you play. When you get tired, you're thinking, shoot, I got six miles left or whatever Well, you'll get even more tired thinking about that. So you say I think I can run to the you know the street sign up there And then from there I think I can run to the fire hydrant

I think I can run to that tree and I think I can run to the the intersection and you just break it up into bite-sized pieces mentally just and and before you know it you you up into bite-sized pieces mentally just and before you know it, you've finished. You run a marathon. Yeah, you run a marathon and I think it's the same thing. He didn't start out at a guarantee, he didn't start out by saying I'm going to do hundreds of thousands of yards. He wouldn't even think about cutting grass, he saw the man. That's exactly right.

And then it turned into this. And so, you know, don't get overwhelmed. The more the stories, don't get overwhelmed by the scope of what any of our guests have done Just remember they like everybody else started with the first one. Yeah, that's exactly right We'll be right back Prepare to venture to the darkest, most haunted locations once again. The most frequent report is that someone was following you out of that ward. As your host, Amy Bruney, I'm ready to take you on a spine tingling journey through the

unknown, where the line between the living and the dead blurs. Unearth the historical untold stories of the haunted places we explore, and hear from real witnesses to the unexplainable phenomena within them. About four o'clock in the morning it felt like the hand of God touched the castle. The whole thing just shook. Race yourself for a supernatural journey unlike any other. Whether you count yourself as a believer or skeptic, a fan of true crime and mystery, or you just love a good ghost story.

Haunted Road has something for you. Listen to Haunted Road, Season 5 on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. My name is Theo Henderson, Austin creator of the podcast called Wee-ian House. My lived experience in house-sitness is extensive. I was one of over 75,000 experiencing house-sitness on a given night in Los Angeles. Here's a simple truth.

House-sitness is everywhere. It affects over half a billion people in the United States alone. Wee-in-House will explore the sensitive strategy of displacement from the perspective of the in-house. On my podcast, we're going to cover far more than my story. We're going to debunk the myths around house systems. We're going to remember and humanize the community who have passed by spotlighting house-us-ness remembrance dance. More importantly, we're going to look at ways we criminalize in-house. Because if you can demonize them,

you can criminalize them. Unlike the mainstream media's way of we criminalize in-house. Because if you can demonize them, you can criminalize them. Unlike the mainstream media's way of speaking over the un-house, my podcast centers their voices in the conversation. House is this is not a monolith. Listen to Weedian House, an I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all. And for millions of Americans there is no

greater unknown than what to do when faced with an Alzheimer's diagnosis. My name is Dana Torito, and my podcast The Memory Whisperer takes a closer look at Alzheimer's disease and those affected by it. Like many of you, I've experienced the disease firsthand. I've been an advocate and care partner for decades and have written extensively about the subject. Each week, I'll talk to people who've been personally affected by the disease and learn how they cope with it.

Folks like TV personality, Lisa Gibbons. Action is the antidote for fear. A nursing dementia researcher, Dr. Feyron Epps. We no longer can be silent. We have to be what we have to share, our experiences, so we can help each other and learn from each other. Listen to the Memory Whisperer on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Till the the biggest hope every one of these things I do is that somebody's listening. We had our Shae Cooper on two weeks ago rowing. We've had Tommy on cops. We've had and we will continue to have all kinds of people and we hope that people

entertain and inspired. But we hope that if someone listens long enough, if they have a passion about something that matches with their particular discipline, they don't have to ask, well, I love to get involved, but how? And we hope that they just heard how. We also want to match people up that want to know not only the how that have the passion and one employer discipline but to have kind of a mentor to help them do it. So if somebody's listening to us today that says I want to do a my town but Tim does, how do they find you? How can they call you? How can they reach you, email you whatever, to actually, I would assume you would be happy

to shepherd somebody to the initial ropes of doing this. Yeah, we're kind of, we use the term open sourcing. So the lessons we've learned, we're happy to share with anybody because we're not trying to steal somebody else's piece of the pie, a portal housing development. We're trying to make a bigger pie. And so our company is called Croslin Southeast, CROS, L-A-N-D, Croslin Southeast.

Look us up on the internet. My email address is in there. Shoot me a line. And I'd be happy to get back to you. My brother, you started in South Side Chicago, the son of a still worker and a teacher who got married and started having kids and took a job and Denver as an engineer of some sort and then took a wing in a prayer at 30 years old and started a business, ended up in Charlotte because your family

mattered to you. There's nothing more normal than that. That's just an American story. And you are my friend, changing lives. And you and your group, the number of speakers for themselves, there's 4,000 people that are better off the day than they were before you started. And I have no doubt you're not ending this up. You're just continue to start it up. And I hope people that listen to us, someone out there or a few people out there who are in your world professionally might be motivated to reach out and say, you know what, I want to give it a shot.

And you're a normal folk who's done some extraordinary things for some people and dude, I just want to really thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, thank you coach. It's been great to be here. So as I, you know, I can't help my business brain keeps creeping into our conversation. And I'm thinking about the enormous front-ended, front-loaded cost to get this thing going. And I get that with tax credits, the city bonds, and whatever rent that the affordable housing spends off,

you kind of piece all these legs together to hold up the stool. but you still had to start. And that money wasn't there at first. So I got, I guess what I'm asking is how long did it take before it was at least funding itself? You know, what was, what kind of investment did it take on the front end in terms of time and outweigh before you able to recoup your upfront cost and at least starting cash flowing. Yeah, that we could spend all day talking about that. I tell you, just like any business, it's rare to start a business that's profitable from day one.

No, I know that actually it's part of a speech I do, but the data is a startup company rarely shows a profit before it's 14th month, and if that's 36 month, it's not profitable. It's bankrupt and just doesn't know it yet. And that window is 14 to 36 months, you got to get it right. And it's got to start cash flowing or you're probably done. We missed that window. So I would say it took us 48 to 60 months to hit the break even break even where the bonds and the and the tax credits and the rate you did get were actually. Well, we don't get the rent freedom communities gets the rent. I mean, that's what I'm saying. So we get a part of the development fee on company, Croson,roson Southeast, so again, we have just a really,

I think, rather unique partnership where freedom communities owns all the apartments that we build, and now we're starting to do some for sale and for rent town homes as well that freedom is involved with. And Croson Southeast does basically all the work, takes all the financial risk, makes all the upfront investment, and our team builds hires contractors and project managers these developments, and then freedom then ends up owning them. So it's a great partnership between a business and a nonprofit.

And it took us four to five years before the development fees basically started covering our overhead expense, these development fees. It takes a couple of years to start a project. If you decide today, I'm gonna be an affordable housing developer. By the time you start construction, it's probably two years from now. You gotta find a site,, you got to design it, you got to zone it, you got to permit it and all that kind of stuff. And then the development fees that you're

allowed to take are kind of back and loaded. They're not going to pay you first. And then say, I hope you build the project. They're going to say, build the project, then it will give you your cut. And so, so right then, you know, that's three, four years from now when you start getting some, some development fees. And so, so right then, you know, that's three, four years from now when you start getting some, some development fees. And so, if you ever lay in the bed, you're going to have to say a little more to about it. Well, yeah, we did. I, more because I have great business partners and I, I kind of, I told them I wanted to do the affordable housing thing and they said, why would we do that? And I said, well, I'm going to do it. You know, I'd like to do it under our crawls in Southeast banner. But if not, you know, I'll

do it myself. And they said, well, we don't want you doing that. So they said, well, we just hope we don't lose money out of the ill. And I said, I guarantee you won't lose money. And so I had kind of promised my partners that we, they wouldn't lose their shirts doing it. It took four or five years. But we got in and I'll tell you another thing. We've got the first two people we hired, our guys that are my age that had full careers in banking and business and they wanted to do something different. They wanted to do something meaningful. These are two brilliant guys.

It could lead companies. And I mean, they're one of the guys we call Svon. I mean, just super bright and financially oriented and they cared and they wanted to kind of have what we call a half time journey. They spent their business lives doing something and now they want to do something from success to significance kind of.

And I started talking to these guys and they said, yeah, that sounds great. And so we learned together about affordable housing. And the truth is I pay them a fraction of what they're worth and give them a little piece of the upside. And they're not doing it for the money. They're doing it to make a difference. Isn't that interesting when I started at Manassas. It was Jim Tipton who really got me there, who works for me and me. And that was it. Fast forward seven years, Mike Ray who works at FedEx and played football for Larry Layswell at Arkansas. State was actually on the team of the decade.

He's a good guy. He was my offensive line coach, Jeff Germany who played for Lou Holtz at Arkansas. Helped with defensive line and offensive line. Mike Walker who was Harbaugh's back up at the University of Michigan with quarterbacks coach. Coach Holland back who's a FedEx pilot, the kids called him Coach Fly, because he flew airplanes and could pronounce Holland back. He was a kicking coach. I'd go on down the line. And the point is, these men are still among the most important friendships

I have in the world, and I have no doubt Monasses. I would have never developed a relationship with him to have not gone to Monasses. And in it interesting, the circle of people that are probably around you now that you would have never had around you, doing amazing work for the most disadvantaged among Charlotte that you would have even never been around, had you not ever gone down this path.

And I would have never been around and had you not ever gone down this path. And I would have never been around had around you doing amazing work for the most disadvantaged among Charlotte that you would have even never been around had you not ever gone down this path. Yeah, that is so accurate. You know, they've been reading for years, you know, 20% of the sales people do 80% of your sales, 20% of the people do 80% of their work. I like to say a lot. I like hanging around with 20% because those are the guys that are getting done.

And I've got a team of people like that. And that's one of the other indirect benefits that I wouldn't have expected. But I've got deeper relationships with higher quality individuals, more deep-seated joy, and just more fulfillment doing this stuff. I may have a smaller paycheck than I might have had I pursued other types of development, and I don't really care about it.

I mean, it's something not everybody can do what I'm doing. I realize that because I'm old enough to have made some money along the way. But a lot of people would keep trying to build as big a bank account as they can. Yeah, but Tim, you know what? There are a lot of people who have done what you've done. They could do this. Yeah. And I submit and I believe with everything, there's a lot of people in this country who are in a position, but they get called for checks all the time.

Yeah, they really don't have a template of what could happen. And guys like you provide that. Yeah, well, I hope so. I hope, and if there's anybody listening out there that is inspired at all by this. I'd love to have a conversation and see if I can help point you in a specific direction that you can do some of the same kind of stuff. And again, if you're an accountant or if you're a school teacher or whatever, not everybody's

going to do real estate or affordable housing. But it's been a privilege to me. I feel I'm a 65 years old this year. I have more fulfillment professionally in these last five or 10 years than I've had in my whole entire life. And I get up in the morning, eager to get going. And not everybody can say that. be here to get going and not everybody can say that. And thank you for joining us this week.

Guys if Tim or another guest has inspired you in general or better yet to take action by wanting to build affordable housing in your community by donating to Freedom Communities or something else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at NormalFolks.us and I will respond or you can use the Badger Hotline [phone]. Leave us a voicemail. We'll listen and we'll respond. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and on social. Subscribe to the podcast, rate, and review it. Become a premium member at normalfocest.us.

All these things that will help us grow and army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week. The 1881 shootout in Tombstone, Arizona, known as the Gunfight at the OK Corral only lasted 30 seconds, but the market left on popular imagination has held on for nearly 150 years. Why? Because Americans have never stopped being fascinated with the Wild West. Grim and Mile presents will travel into the unknown, the misunderstood, and the forgotten tales of America's Westward expansion. Grim and Mile presents The Wild West is available now.

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