An Army of Normal Folks - William Paul Young: They Saved My Life (Pt 1)

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

25 million books sold, a film starring Tim McGraw and Octavia Spencer, and tens of millions of lives touched. But the extraordinary impact of The Shack never would have happened if 3 different people didn't save the life of the author, William Paul Young. For our special "Supporting Greatness" series, Paul pays tribute to these unsung heroes. Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I cannot fathom that I could work in the direction of healing and not kill myself, except for the presence of Kim in my life. She saved my life. She saved it. Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm an entrepreneur and I've been a football coach in inner city Memphis. In the last part, it unintentionally led to an Oscar for the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words

that nobody ever understands on CNN and Fox, but rather an army of normal folks, us, just you and me, deciding, hey, I can help. Today, we've got a powerful feature from our special series called Supporting Greatness. This is where we interview not so normal folks like Mike Rowe and Medal of Honor recipient David Belavia. But instead of blowing smoke up their rear ends and talking about how great they are. We interview them with the idea of celebrating the normal folks who came along in their lives,

their unsung heroes who've supported them and shaped their greatness. Today's guest, Paul Young wrote a book that sold 25 million copies and it became a movie starring Tim McGraw and Octavia Spencer. But as you just heard, this wouldn't have happened if Paul's wife didn't save his life. I can't wait for you to meet Paul right after these brief messages from our generous sponsors. Go! At the Planet Money podcast, we ask questions like, who decides when we're in a recession? Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about

weird schemes and wonderful mistakes to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. where there's a lot of hopelessness. People need this movie. George Bailey was never born. During the many partaking in this one of a kind podcast experience. Listen to all 10 episodes available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. SaveGeorgeBailey.com, subscribe now. ["I Heart Radio App"]

Welcome to an Armory folks. Uh, today is a exciting day. You're going to say it again. Oh, do you say that all the time? Yeah. For those listening, the reason I said say it again is we've already started this interview and dropped the first five minutes of audio. So we're starting over. But that's like my life is already all.

That's right. It's a redo, you know. We're calling an audible. Well, since we started this one time, let me introduce myself and fix some of your errors. Oh, okay. How did I air? Okay. So, I am William Paul Young, one of four generations of Williams who'd

go, none of us go by our first names. So I go by Paul and a Canadian born grew up in the Highlands of New Guinea, which was a, as a missionary kid. I did not intend to be a published author. I, in fact, it took me two years until Kim confronted me and said, you gotta stop saying you're an accidental author. Like you actually did write a book. And I wrote a book, 26 publishers turned it down.

And a couple guys I know said, actually I asked, how do you publish a book? And so they created a little publishing house for, I don't know, 500 bucks in California. They found a printing company that would actually print it. Now, you need to understand that I wrote this book as a Christmas present for my six kids. That was it.

And Kim had said, someday, as a gift for our kids, would you just write something that puts in one place how you think? But I never felt healthy enough. I never felt ready. And when I finally felt healthy enough, I went down to Office Depot at Christmas because Kinko's was a cross, but a little more expensive. And I made 15 copies on their on their photocopy machine and put a little plastic cover, a little binding on the side. And at 15, you get a price break. So otherwise, I'd had just done enough for the kids and us. Six went to our six children. Kim and I kept a copy and the extra ones I just gave to my friends. And I went back to work, working three jobs at the time.

And so my friends start giving it away. And so we actually took a little collection so that I could make 15 more copies. And I start getting these crazy emails. Now, this is a world I don't know anything about. Publishing and writing. I've always written stuff, but mostly as little gifts for friends and family.

The early stuff when I was inside all my crap, I burned most of that, partly because I was afraid my dad would find it. And then these emails, I didn't know what to do with them because they weren't like you'd expect. They weren't like, oh, great book, thank you, thank you. They were exposing their lives. They were saying, you know, my daughter was killed by a drunk driver and I'm stuck. And your book has given me a way to face some of these things and see if there's a way through.

That kind of thing. And I didn't know what to do. So I'd met an actual author one time and he needed a driver. So I drove him around and, um, and so I had his email. So I emailed him and said, you know, I wrote this thing and I'm getting these emails and I don't know what to do about them. And here's an example. And he writes me back and says, what did you write?

Great question. Yeah. What you wrote is the shock. I did. And a bunch of people listening to us have probably either read it or watched the movie much like I did last night as a refresher course. And the thing about the shock is from its humble beginnings, which we're going to get into a little more

to the 40th most highest selling book in human history. Fixed. So fiction, fiction. So 40, that that, that is thin air. When you're of all the books in human history, to be ranked number 40 is unbelievable, especially from its meager beginnings, which I would argue, reeks of divine intervention on your behalf.

Wouldn't we all? We spend part of every day going like, this is nuts, right? It says crazy to me today as it's evident. Listen, I get it. I really do get it. You do get it. I do get it.

Some dude showed up with a camera and followed me around for 550 hours. And two years later, I'm walking down the red carpet Academy Awards. You and I are kindred spirits in that morning that, how do you even know? I love what you did. Well, thank you.

So let's talk about that. But what I wanna say is, we want to unpack this story about you because I think people will be vastly interested in how you got to where you are. But this show and Army and Normal folks in this segment, supporting greatness is about the normal folks, the unsung heroes in your life that helped you get to this point that we also want to celebrate and talk about. Perfect.

So, we'll get to that, but please pick up with, what do I do with this? What do I do with this thing I wrote for my children? Yeah. And so this kind of actual author friend, he says, what did you write? So I sent him an electronic copy and he does the author thing, which is great. I understand it because I get sent all kinds of things and he goes, well, you know, it might take me six months. I said, I don't care if you read it. You asked what I did and that was on a Friday night. On Monday, he

phones me, which had never happened, and he says, why did you send me that manuscript? And I go like, just throw it out, because I thought he was offended. And he goes, he goes, no, no, no, I can't print the pages fast enough. He said, I don't know if I've read anything in the last dozen years where my first thought is, I have a dozen friends who need to read this. And I said, well, send it to him. He said, I already did.

So that's what started the conversation. And at first, the first things that he and his buddies wanted to do was make a movie. But we decided they really encouraged me to actually put this into print. So we spent time, I'm working my three jobs up in Portland area. We got it ready, we put a cover on it, we edited it as best we can, and in May of 2007, it was ready. But it got turned down by 26 publishers. Half of them were secular publishers.

Just 26. Well, it's only one week. If you say just, it doesn't seem so bad. Just 26. It was only just 26. Only 26 said, Banyan script wasn't worth printing. Yeah, well, they had a problem. The secular folks thought it was,

it had too much Jesus in it. Right. And the Christian folks thought it was too edgy. Plus, neither of the groups knew where to put it in a store. I'm so glad you said that about edgy because I want to ask you about that later and we will return to that because, first, we're gonna get to that,

but first, I want to bring our listeners along. Would you briefly take us through one year old to writing this thing in the first place? Yeah. I was born in Grand Prairie, Alberta and saw a loop. That sounds like a He Hall place. Well, get this. Population, two thousand one hundred and thirty three.

My dad had a church with a with a graduate from the same Bible school and there were six people. There you go. I now live in Brush Prairie, Washington. There's some kind of irony to that. Something with prairies. Yeah, exactly. And... Maybe you're a prairie dog.

Maybe. It's a possibility. Maybe. So, a year old, the three of us, my mom and dad and I, I was the first born, and we moved to the other side of the world, the big island, second largest island in the world, right above Australia. And into the heart of the island,

among the Donny tribal people. And this is New Guinea. This is New Guinea, and now called West Papua. And because it's gone through all kinds of changes. It was a Dutch colonized country. It then moved to a UN protectorate because the Dutch vacated, because they were afraid of the Indonesians. And the Indonesians then came and took over. And the tribal people had no say in anything, plus they didn't understand. Our tribe was Stone Age culture. They didn't have any metal in the culture

and warring but agrarian, so they had a lot of... It was beautiful. New Guinea goes from right off the equator and the heat there all the way up to glaciers, and so these different tribes are all over the place. Nobody had gone in there. Nobody knew the language,

but I'm a year old. And so it's my first dreaming language. And in the missionary culture at the time, they were busy doing God's work. And so the children were raised by the culture. And so I didn't have a lot of connection to my parents. At six, I was sent to boarding school school, which is, I think, a horrible thing because so many missionary kids got sacrificed for the mission. At six, I mean,

I've got grandchildren who are six and I look at them going like, how in the world? Would you ever send the shout off? Yeah, how could you do that? And is there justification that a a inaccurate but assumed justification at that time involved in that work that it's what I'm I'm justifying sending my six year old off to be raised by somebody

because I'm doing quote, God's religious work. That's kind of the justification. If Abraham is willing to sacrifice his son, why aren't you willing to sacrifice your children? And the mission overrode the health of the children. And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, I hope you'll consider becoming a premium member of the army at normal folks dot us by becoming one for $10 a month or $1,000 a year, you can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes, a yearly group call, and even a one-on-one call with me.

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I absolutely love our podcast. Yes. It has been so much better than I expected. Yes. Because we get to share our lives with everyone. They get to learn about us. This is the podcast that you wanna listen to, just to feel like you're in the living room

with your girlfriends, you're driving in the car with your girlfriends, you're having that good girlfriend talk. And sometimes we say things that like you wanna say, but you can't say out loud. We're like speaking your mind for you, but you're scared to say it, but we gonna say it. We do hot topics, we talk about reasonable and shady things, so get into it.

Get into it and join us every Monday for Reasonably Shady and be sure to tune into the latest season of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to Reasonably Shady on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Merry Christmas! It's a wonderful life, is one of the most popular movies ever, but it has more to offer you than you ever thought. to your favorite shows. So if you went there at one, you're more New Guinea than you are in the American

I didn't have did not have a conscious awareness until I went to boarding school that I was white And it was a huge disappointment. You know, it was it was a I didn't have a tearing from my parents I had a tearing from the culture But it's also that's what you know. Yeah. Yeah, and But it's also- Because that's what you do? Yeah, yeah. And so the tribal culture, I had already started to experience sexual abuse, but it really ramped up in boarding school.

And so you got- Was the boarding school in New Guinea? Yeah, on the coast. You know, you flew there because it's- Run by, run by- The mission. Native New Guineans or the Americans? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It was, no. It was run by the mission. Okay. And all of this, like you were saying, it's not justification, but it was done with the best intent. But the message for, you can't, you can't talk about what's going on behind the doors, because you may be, you may be sending people to hell because you're going to impact the mission. Irony of ironies that couldn't tension sleeve the road to hell and the missionaries were wrought in it. Yeah, but you know, they went there. My parents went there. My mother was a medical missionary. She destroyed a disease in the culture that was just rampant. Yeah. And my dad was a pioneer.

He was a hunter-trapper growing up, but he came from a huge amount of damage. And I didn't know that. All I knew was that he terrified me and he hit really hard. And so. Was he physically abusive? Yes. Yes. So by the age. But his, his dad had destroyed his capacity to be a father before I ever showed up. I picked that up in the book in the movie that you were, you explain through discovery in the movie in the book that the anger you must have held early for your father.

You started to understand that he was only a victim of the same thing that you were. I didn't understand that until a lot of years later. Yeah. I have an aunt who just turned 103. And she wrote this really massive, beautiful book that's wrenching because she was a truth teller inside the history of our family. And so she went back and I was able to see the damage

and the damage and the damage. And actually my dad broke some of that. And because he broke some of that, I eventually was able to take more steps away from my history. That's interesting. So even though you, you, even though you remember your father's abusive, you also credit him with at least the steps toward breaking the abuse.

Absolutely. So by seven, you're in this. By six. By six, you're in this home and you've already been sexually and physically abused. Correct. Plus you have this huge abandonment issue and you don't know who you are.

Well, that's another form of abuse. Absolutely. No question about it. Did. And you're moving from culture to culture. Did the sexual abuse happen by the Donnie people? Yes. Yes. But is that part of the culture? That's the question I don't have an answer to. Was I targeted or was this simply part of how the culture moved? And all I know is the memories that are very clear and the impact on me, what it did. And then going to boarding school to have the oldest boys

come visit the youngest boys in the middle of the night. Were you terrified? Yeah, I mean, I had night terrors from the time I can remember. And, you know, there is like in missionary, those that were sent away among elementary aged kids, the majority of them are bedwetters, the majority of them are trying to find a way to survive and are, you know, usually the people who are at least equipped end up overseeing the boarding schools because they're down the chain in terms of being good at the pioneer mission side. So the children are just trying to find a way to survive.

And it sounds like in some regards then made to run in the asylum from the older kids standpoint in a way You know, and so it's very heavily Legalistic in terms of its theology and in terms of its organization Sounds quite religious. Yeah. Yeah in in the most Yeah, in the most despicable sorts of ways. And unfortunately, a lot of us grew up with not only what we have experienced, but behind it is a theology that was very similar. You know, because who do you look toward in terms of your view of God as a child if your father happens to be there? If your father's not there, then God is often gone somewhere and has abandoned

you. If your father's there and abusive, then God is easily projected as an abusive character. Like one of my missionary kids after the Shack came out, sent me a letter and said, I grew up not knowing what the difference between God and Satan was except with Satan, I always knew where I stood. You know, with God, I couldn't tell you at any given point where I stood. So oftentimes for us, Jesus became the mediator between us and God because God was of a different character in nature, right? And so you got all this… Which ironically means the relationship between Christ,

Holy Spirit and God was completely destroyed and therefore if you don't understand the Trinity you don't understand grace or the faith. Correct. If you don't understand that God is love and that God has never killed anybody and that God is not a judge to, you know, God is not the judge in the law courtroom, but a judge who's a doctor. I mean, there's all these different pieces that we weren't told. Plus, I grew up with pieces of theology. That is that the truth of who you are is like, like, like, like Calvin said, we are snow covered dung, you know, and you're just a piece of crap, and you're trying to find your way out, and God has come to help you. But the truth of who you are is that you're a piece of garbage. I would just venture to say that's a lot of six years old, Paul.

I would just venture to say that's a lot of six years old Paul. And then at 10, we moved back to Canada. And so you find with this foundation, you find a life and you get married and you start down the road. Right. And you don't want to talk about your history because you're so ashamed. And, uh, and you don't want to talk about your history because you're so ashamed. And I'm not saying this out of a still damaged place. I'm saying it out of the tenderness of the losses, right? That not just me, but a lot of those I love have experienced in similar ways. those I love have experienced in similar ways. And the older I get, the more it's obvious that so many of us

are lost inside of our damage. And so, yes, by 12, I am a porn addict because pornography is just the imagination of a relationship without the risk of a real one. I couldn't take the risk of a real one. Because I couldn't tell my secrets because I couldn't take the risk of seeing the look of disgust on another human's face. And so what do you do? You become a player to the audience. And those who have been sexually abused know that they're hyper-vigilant. They know where the doors and the windows are. They can read the audience. And those who have been sexually abused know that they're hyper vigilant. They know where the doors and the windows are. They can read the audience and

they know how to stay safe. So you are a different person in every situation that there is an audience and you compartmentalize, you shut down your emotional world. My dad helped me do that and you just try to live logically. And lying becomes your survival mechanism because you're constantly driven to a point of perfection. And my dad had a lot to do with that. The way to avoid his wrath was to be perfect. And when he came after me, I had two mechanisms.

One was to lie in such a way that he believed me, which he mostly didn't. And a lot of times it wouldn't have mattered anyway. But the other one was to yell at him, these words, I'll be good, I'll be good, I'll be good, I'll be good, I'll be good, just give me another chance. And every time I said that, I was saying, because I'm bad, because I'm bad, because I'm bad. You know, and so that spills over to your view of God. God's constantly telling you, you know you're bad, and you need to be good.

And so you have perfectionist, religious types of performance on top of everything else. And because you're bad, make sure you carry this backpack of guilt around with you. Yeah, yeah. And guilt... Guilt is not guilt. It's guilt as I've done something wrong.

That's one thing. Shame as I am. Shame. That's the same as a... ...am something wrong. Right? And those of us who've grown up in that kind of environment, it's shame and fear. Those become the two drivers of your whole life and the things you cannot access is love and trust.

We'll be right back. At the Planet Money Podcast, we ask questions like, who decides when we're in a recession? Why does every insurance company seem to have a mascot? Do food expiration dates even matter? I'm Jeff Guo, co-host of NPR's Planet Money, where we bring you stories about people, about weird schemes and wonderful mistakes

to show you how the economy actually works. Listen to Planet Money from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. more to offer you than you ever thought. You know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? In this world where there's a lot of hopelessness, people need this movie. George Bailey was never born. During the many partaking in this one of a kind podcast experience, listen to all 10 episodes available now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. SaveGeorgeBailey.com. Subscribe now. Hi, thisgeorgebailey.com, subscribe now. Hi, this is Giselle and Robin, and we're the host of Reasonably Shady on the Black Effect Podcast Network. I absolutely love our podcast. Yes.

It has been so much better than I expected. Yes. Because we get to share our lives with everyone. They get to learn about us. This is the podcast that you wanna listen to, just to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriends, you're driving in the car with your girlfriends, you're having that good girlfriend

talk and sometimes we say things that like, you wanna say but you can't say out loud. We're like speaking your mind for you but you're scared to say it but we gonna say it. We do hot topics, we talk about reasonable and shady things. So get into it. Get into it and join us every Monday for Reasonably Shady and be sure to tune into the latest season

of the Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to Reasonably Shady on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So you carry all this from six to twelve, then you get married. Right. And I'd already gone to thirteen schools, so I knew how to leave. Leaving? You perfected. Yeah. And I could even do it in a religious way. I could say, I think God has called me somewhere else. Oh, now that's an interesting thing. I hear that a lot. And I do believe that sometimes it's cause people and people legitimately feel called. I also believe that I've heard that and I've looked at it with a little bit of an ear and eye of suspicion thinking, are you being called or are you escaping?

Yeah. And for some of us, it's definitely, especially if our false persona begins to disintegrate because it cannot sustain itself. If someone starts to look into you and get to know you a little too much, you better feel called to something else. Exactly. I'm called, I'm out. Yep, and a false persona,

you know how you can tell a false persona? It will self protect and self promote. If you don't know who you are, and you're in a situation where you have to defend yourself, you will self promote and self protect. If you know who you are and you're in a situation where you have to defend yourself, you will self-promote and self-protect. If you know who you are, the external kinds of things that people say will not matter because you know who you are.

Because you are confident in it. Yeah, you don't have to self-protect. But you didn't know who you were at the same time. I had no idea. No idea. You didn't know who God was. Boy, that was, I had such a draw in one sense to the beauty, not only of creation, but to the beautiful side of God.

It was just that God as Father was ambivalent, like mine. I couldn't trust what was going on from one moment to the next. So you may have known who he was, but you had no idea how to have a personal relationship. No. And so Jesus became the one that I could be, I could have an easier time. Yeah. And we were conservative evangelicals, so the Holy Spirit had already left by the end of the first century. And so... Oh, that's hilarious. Well, the Trinity was the Son, the Father, and the Holy Bible. We'd already given up the capacity to actually hear for ourselves. We'd given it to the professionals and to the educated. And then a couple hundred years ago, they came up with this thing called the inerrancy

and the infallibility of scripture. And this will, this will bother some of my people for me to say this, but it's only a hundred years old. And people need to be bothered. Yeah, I go ahead and bother them. Yeah. And these, these are my people whom I love dearly, you know, and if you love them, you need to ruffle them.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not wild about me all the time, but But but as soon as you create an idea of the the infat now I know scripture is inspired, but I know James Taylor is inspired I know Elton John is all inspired means all young. Yeah, the musician one. I know he's every time you go away Yep, so theme song, you know. And so I know that... I love the scripture, but for ten years,

I had to not read a word in it because it was so toxic in terms of the way that it was presented to me. And then slowly, slowly, slowly, it became something incredibly beautiful, incredibly precious. But, you know, part of what the beauty of God's relationship with us is that God submits to us, and God submitted to his own people to write his story. And when you go back, you have this genocidal God right along with one who's telling you that he's in covenantal relationship with you because the historians they're coming from cultures where God is genocidal and

Territorial and so they're just beginning to see the beauty but they're stuck inside their old ways of thinking and slowly the poets begin to see things better and then the prophets begin to see things better, and then the prophets begin to see things better. And when Jesus comes you have the clearest revelation of the character and nature of God. You know, and so those kinds of things were really important for me to deal with. My history is the way that it was given to me by the church. And so I'm carrying all this baggage. Him doesn't know anything about it. I marry her and we hadn't even really dated, but she figured out when I when I asked her that she that if I if she said no, I would never ask her again. That's true because my

shame base was so big. So she was thinking if I say yes, I can back out. And that's actually saying, yes, she had outs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, and we were married 11 days later. So I mean, it's a wild crazy story. But I cannot fathom that I could work in the direction of healing and not kill myself, except for the presence of Kim in my life. She saved my life. She saved it. And she paid a high price. You know, she caught me in a three-month affair with one of her best friends, and it blew up the world.

And I'd always been like, there must be a way to change without dealing with your history. So I was constantly recommitting myself, but not a truth teller. How do you deal with all that stuff? And I pulled the yellow pages off the shelf, looked under counselors. Kim did not demand that. What Kim demanded was, you will be the one. We didn't make my adultery the new secret. In fact, the first person that I told was her dad who lived with us for 17 years. His name is Willard, and he died on his birthday in 2002. But his name is Willard. We all called him Willy, so the Willy in the shack is Kim's dad.

And when I told him, I wanted him to beat the hell out of me, because I have a defense mechanism for that. But I don't have any for kindness, and for care and compassion, and I watched my words break his heart. He loved me so dearly. He never raised a fist, he never raised a word, and it crushed me. And there were those kinds of things that pushed me to deal with it. One of the most beautiful and horrific things was Kim's fury. She was so angry. And I said to her after the first four hours when I went, I mean, she caught me.

She caught the stuff that was going on and called me. I can tell you right where I was, the moment I was, and who I was with, which was not her, it was a friend of mine named Steve. And she called me and just said, I'm waiting for you at the office. And I know that's it. I do. She called you and said, Paul, I'm waiting for you at your office. And I know.

Correct. And I don't know how I made it from where I was across town. Cause, cause suicide was the last way to run away. And I had always been a... Did you consider it? Absolutely. I mean, at that point. Absolutely.

And I don't know how I made it across town. And I walk in and she's taken my office apart, and she rips into me for four hours. And shame will not allow you to look into the face of someone because it's too dangerous and I couldn't. And four hours later when she took a breath, I said to her, if we're going to do this, I have to tell you every secret I have. Did she know about your secret?

She didn't know. She kind of knew, but she didn't know anything. She didn't know anything. And I said, because secrets have been killing me my whole life. And she said, na naively bring it on and it took me four days to tell her everything that had been a secret and it destroyed her. And she said I will never believe another word that comes out of your mouth the rest

of your life. In the middle of this destruction that Kim is bearing, which was an apocalypse for this woman, did the four-day confession in an odd way simultaneously liberate you? Getting caught in an odd way liberated something, right? Because when you're caught... The gift's up. Finally, how old were you? I was 38. Okay, so let's erase from six before, because in large part,

you're being directed rather than acting on your own. If you were 38, that means there's 32 years- Of keeping secrets. Of keeping secrets. And all the energy that takes, and then, you know, like they say. I'm saying that's 32 years of burden. Yeah, liars have to have good memories.

Yeah, they would. Because you have to keep track, and that takes energy. I'm simultaneously seeing this apocalypse for your wife, but also this, this, uh, liberation for you in a way, which is, which is ironically and grotesquely. Um, it was a sliver of hoax. It's so odd that something that is so destructive to the person you love most in the world is actually therapeutic to you.

Being a truth teller is therapeutic to you, even if it's just a sliver. And it was like a relief. It was like a relief. That's what I mean. In my insanity of this, I thought Kim was going to die. I thought this became the explosion of my emotional world that had never happened. I thought Kim was going to die. I bought wedding rings. I mean, I'm telling you, it was nuts

as I look back on it. But it was real to me in this, and I had to justify the choices I was making somehow, and it drove me into this form of insanity. This had nothing to do with love. I was projecting on this person what I needed. Right? It's like infatuation. Infatuation is not based on knowing someone. Real love is always based on knowing someone and love is simply the skin of knowing. But infatuation is based

on not knowing. It's based on projecting. You know, the worst thing you can do when you're infatuated with someone is to get to know them, right? Because suddenly they're not going to meet your needs. Well the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, two oldest went through this with us. I tell her family. She and her five sisters are called the force for a reason. The force. Yeah. And may the force be with you. Like the adventures or something. Yeah. Marvel comics. And it's true, but her family is huge.

There's a big safety net. She was the honored aunt by the nephews and they wanted to kill me because of the hurt. Right. And the consequences just went flooding out. We're not judged for our sin. We're judged for our sin. We're judged by our sin. And the choices I made just flowed out. The family in whom I had, the woman that I had committed adultery with,

her family had eight children who loved us, loved us. And all these years later, I'm- This is a friend of Cubs and those kids felt safe with us. And to this day, I'm only so far reconciled to two of them. You know, these things don't just end. These things you have to keep working on a situation by situation and you have to keep responding to it. You have to become a truth teller and keep being a truth teller. I had to tell her family, then I had to tell my family, and then I had to tell the community that it was a part of. Secrets are snipers, right?

They will continue to shoot you as long as they are part of your world. And the best thing, Kim's fury that drove me to say, I've got to be done with secrets. I have no secrets in my life now. I have no secrets in my life now. They have no place in my life now. And so the yellow pages,

I ended up with Scott Mitchell who became my therapist and eventually my friend. And I sit across from Scott the first day and I tell him what's going on. And I say the first time in my life to a human being, can you help me? And he says, yep, I can, but it's going to take a year and a half. And I said, I'm'm in and he laughed. He said Paul everybody that sits where you are they all say they're in but after a couple months they will start

to feel better about themselves and they'll start to be more powerful about themselves and they're going to start to thinking that they're smarter than me and they'll bail out right before the really hard stuff. And I said, I'm not leaving until you tell me I'm done. He said, okay, let's work. And that concludes part one of my conversation with Paul Young, and you do not want to miss part two that's now available. and you do not want to miss part two that's now available. We're gonna dive deep into that healing journey

and what it looked like and what came out of it. But if for some strange reason you don't, make sure to join the Army of Normal Folks at normalfolks.us and sign up to become a member of the movement. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly email and short episode summaries in case you happen to miss an episode or if you've per reading about our incredible guests. Together, guys, we can change the country and it starts with you. What up, guys? Hola, qué tal? It's your girl Chiquis from the Chiquis and Chill and Dear Chiquis podcasts. And guess what?

We're back for another season. Get ready for all new episodes where I'll be dishing out honest advice, discussing important topics like relationships, women's health and spirituality. I'm sharing my experiences with you guys and I feel that everything that I've gone through has made me a wiser person. And if I can help anyone else through my experiences, I feel like I'm living my godly purpose. Listen to Chikis and Chill and your Chikis on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or

wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, podcast fans. Michael Lewis here, host of the Pushkin Show against the Rules. I want to tell you about a very special series we're doing called Judging Sam, the Trial of Sam Bankman-Fried. SBF, the former CEO of Crypto Exchange FTX, is being tried for financial crimes. I'll be following the trial that decides his fate. Judging Sam starts October 2nd. Listen to Judging Sam, the trial of Sam Bankman-Free in the Against the Rules feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. I'm a cognitive scientist and I've written 10 books and hundreds of articles on topics such as intelligence, introversion, and education. The Psychology Podcast is a place where we investigate the different ways in which we can unlock human potential and where I get to interview some of the most extraordinary and fascinating people and we have real conversations about what it means to achieve success and what it means to be human. Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.