And That's Why We Drink - E426 A Big Bi Cup and Christine’s Box of Doom

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

Episode 426 is here and is foster dog Hank the funniest thing that’s happened on the podcast so far? This week Em brings us the story of the haunted Burlington County Prison and the wild shenanigans that went on there. Then Christine covers the unfortunate case of Hannah Anderson and Jim DiMaggio which leaves us speechless. And if you need us you can catch us in the VR movie theater… and that’s why we drink! Interested in adopting the adorable Hank? Visit https://www.barknbitches.com/ for more info! For a list of resources or ways to help those affected by the fires in Los Angeles visit: bit.ly/atwwdfirehelp ! Only a few cities remaining for our Pour Decisions Tour! Get your tickets today at andthatswhywedrink.com/live ! ______________________ If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don’t wait to get help. Go to NOCD.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/drink today. Get better sleep, hair and skin with Blissy and use DRINKPOD to get an additional 30% off at http://blissy.com/DRINKPOD Grab an Angry Orchard Cider today. Don’t Get Angry. Get Orchard. Please Drink Responsibly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Conditions apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Well, we're back. We're back again. You thought you could get rid of us 425 times in a row and we said no. So we're back again. This time I thought you might finally win everybody. Oh, there's that dog again.

Guess who's still here. My sanity. Wait, no, that was a listener episode. Oh, wait, it'll have come out by the time this comes out. So if you listen to listener episode, if you don't listen to listener episodes, now you've missed out on the big update. I sure have. That's your punishment.

I know. If you keep hearing clattering today, folks, it is my foster dog has, I got him like a tray that like you fill it with ice and you put food in it. So it's supposed to be like a frozen lick pad and takes forever in theory for them to eat it. But this dog is like way too smart for that. Keyword in theory. Yeah.

He realized he can just pick the whole plate up in his mouth and then get on the couch and then slam it onto the ground and it just shatters the ice everywhere. I need you to all understand that I'm in love with Hank and I think he's the funniest and best dog ever and I think he's the game changer for this podcast. I think things will never be the same going forward. I think I will feel so much less guilty

every time my dog barks and so it's really even the scores for me a bit. Earlier, Em said like, I'm so sorry, I might have to get up and like help him if his like snout gets stuck. And I was like, Leona, like Waltz is in here and like pulls the camera down. Like, I don't know, I feel like,

I feel finally like I have, I'm less of the bad guy. I'm owed eight years of bullshit, I think. No, I've never cared before, but now all of a sudden I'm paranoid about everyone caring about him. Anyway, he's, should we do a PSA if anyone wants a smart dog? Hankies, come here. So he's up for adoption. His name is Hank.

He is a 10 month old puppy. And that is why he is causing so much chaos. Don't eat that. Okay. He is literally look at him. He's perfect and sweet and I love him more than anything in the world besides Gio. And he has these like chihuahua ears, which I did say yesterday and he seemed pretty upset about that.

But he got a wiggly waggly tail. He does not have a butt curtain, but he does have Geo's kind of coloring, plus some, what do you call that? Cattle, cattle. Cattle dog. Cattle dog spots. And he is seriously so effing cute.

I can't deal. He looks like he might have some like Rottweiler maybe instead of the German Shepherd. I can't tell, but he's he might have some like Rottweiler maybe instead of the German Shepherd. I can't tell, but he's a cutie pie and he's so smart and he has a lot of energy and M's solo parenting right now. And is for weeks and is struggling with it. So if, and doesn't have a, like a big yard or anything for the dog.

So like has to go on all these walks. And you know how much M loves to go on walks. To go outside. Yesterday I did three walks with him and two hours at the dog park. Yeah. And it's just because we don't have a yard for him. So that's the only reason that we're not taking him because otherwise he's... Otherwise he's perfect?

Is that what you're going to say? Otherwise he's... Hankies. Come here. I mean Hankie. Like he's perfect. Is that what you're going to say? Otherwise he's. Hankies, come here. I mean, hanky, like he's so cute. Hank. I need a little hanky panky. Wow, okay. So if you're in the, if you're in need of some hanky panky,

please, please check out our show notes because we're going to somehow, is there a link or something? There's a rescue that we are working with called Bark and Bitches. Oh yeah. He should have led with that. Yeah, that's what we got.

And so that's where we got Hank. He is our third or fourth foster now, but every one of them, we've never thought like, oh, this is gonna be like a permanent dog. He's probably the closest we've gotten to him maybe being a permanent dog, but he has so much energy. Until Allison tested it by leaving for a couple weeks. She really ruined it there.

Well, like the only reason he's like this mouthy and everything and like constantly needs stuff is because we don't have a yard for him to like get it all out. So if someone has a yard, it all goes away and he's just a cuddly smart dog. Yeah, He is a puppy. He is very smart and a puppy and those don't combine well. I know that. No, he's stupid smart. And I gotta give Alison all the credit for the training. She taught him like 30 commands. Yeah, that's the wildest part.

And he's really good on a leash and everything. And at the dog park, he goes to the timid dog park because he's scared of everyone. Hankies, come here. Hankies, come here. One more. Come here. I have a toy you want. I'm trying to get him like one more shot. Whatever, I'll show it at you.

Idiot. Okay. Hey! The way that he has been such a good boy until he wants attention. And I'm not getting it to him. You're describing every mammal. You're describing every mammal You're describing every human every pet He's so cute though. They're great until they want attention. Yeah, he just all of a sudden

I think that's my frustration is I know how smart he is when he acts like a dummy. I'm like, what is going on here? I know what you're capable of I'm new to all this. I'm new to all this. I know, I know, it is fun to watch, I'll be honest with you. We had a big snuggle fest this morning. Aw, but see that's the thing, Gio's not a snuggler and I wish for that, that's really sweet.

Hank is a big snuggler. When he's not rowdy, all he wants to do is be in your lap or have a tummy rub or he'll show his tummy to anyone. He's just desperate to be pet and loved on. And he's got very soft ears. He's a good boy. I'm so in love with him. The only thing that I'm mad about is that... We aren't over yard? Yes. No, that I'm not there.

At least give him one little squeeze because if you did have a yard, then I could squeeze them all the time. But I think if whoever wants to adopt Hank gets in touch with me for like potential visitation rights, that would be great. As his aunt, as his biological aunt. I did birth him myself, yes. You did and I think that I should get some special rights also.

No, he's very good. He's just, he just needs. He's a sweetie, I know. He needs a lot, and I'm not, I just am not, I don't know if I can offer all that. Listen, you got those hardwood floors, he's just slamming that ice around. And by the way, Em was like, oh my God,

it's gonna melt into a wet fruit salad on the floor, because there's like berries and stuff in it. And I was like, that's just so rough, man. I will also, it's so, yeah, and it's full of blueberries and stuff. And not only does he flip it upside down on the couch so all the ice melts into the couch, but then he jumps on it so he smears the berries

into the couch. I feel like this is the thing that you learn when you get a puppy and then you put peanut butter and then all of a sudden there's peanut butter everywhere and you go, oh. Oh, that's why people freeze it or like oh you learn all these things We're like, oh or that's why like I've I've learned all those things this week alone I know you can't learn it until you do it and then you go oh fuck but some of those things never I truly I never certainly has never gone away from my house because of the dog. I've never felt more like truly like the beginnings of a parent where I'm just,

even though I know obviously before people come at me, I know babies and dogs are different, but this is my first time having to take care of another thing and learning all the insider tips because I've just never had to know them. And the peanut butter thing is very real. Every dog is different. Like some might be like, I mean, you know,

Gio wants to be cuddly, but then I realized it's only when he wants something. And then I'm like, oh, well, that's annoying. I want to sleep. And he's like, nope. And my favorite thing about Hank, besides, I mean, he's very cute and it's very easy. He's got very kissable cheekies.

But he loves sleeping long-term and he'll sleep all night and then have a three hour nap with you. And I'm like, that's my man. But all the times he's awake, Gremlin, full blow Gremlin. Here's what I'll also say. What if the listener episode comes out on the first

and then this comes out like two weeks later and he's already adopted and the person who adopted him is like, stop talking about my dog. Like someone else is going to take him. Maybe he's already been adopted by then. I hope so. I hope someone loves him the right way.

I wish I could love him the right way. I just don't. All I need is a little extra grass. I mean, he, but right now he just needs to keep going places to walk him. And it's just very, it's a lot of time. Yeah. I mean, I imagine that, um imagine that you drink for that reason. Is that right?

That's exactly why I drink. That's right. What are you drinking? Oh look, we're wearing the same shirt. Oh, well, almost. We're both wearing our own brand. Our own merch, that's what we do. Yeah, we're cool.

We're cool like that. I'm drinking water and I drink it very quietly because he is obsessed with ripping water bottles up. So I have to be very, I have to be very careful. Yeah. He's got a crinkle stick that's full of water bottles on it, but, Oh yeah. Yeah.

They love those things. Anyway, I drink water. Um, and that's about it. What do you, what do you drink? I'm drinking out of my bisexual tumbler. Your big bi-cup. My big bi-cup. It's purple to pink.

And I'm drinking my cold brew iced coffee from the fridge with a dash of whole milk, slightly sweetened. Oh, it hits the spot, you know. But I drink because, well, I had a really good reason. Oh, look what I got out yesterday and I finally charged it. I bought this for Blaze for his birthday four years ago I think.

Oh my God. And we've never used it. That's wild because I've literally shown you what it can do and you still take. No I know and I don't know what happened. I think I got overwhelmed and was like, I'm just over, and since I gave it to Blaze, like he,

excuse me. Oh my God. And just like that she's smoked 100 cigarettes before the show. Bye. Please, Jack, you can keep the jokes and do not keep that phlegm noise. And it was so nasty. I can't go the rest of my life

knowing anybody else wrote that besides you two. So I have, yeah, so I got out my, by the way, folks, if you're like, what are you talking about? This is one of the Oculus things, right? The Oculus. VR. See, I'm like so out of the loop. Em showed me how cool it was one time.

Years ago. Years ago. And right at, when was that? Cause it was that year. I literally used to pack it to play with it in hotel rooms on the road. So I brought it, it's like a Canada show, I think. Yeah, so it was right after that

for Blaze's birthday Christmas something, I bought him one and I was like, oh, this will be like our big purchase and like, we'll share it. And then he used it like once or twice for a Star Wars game. And I guess like, maybe I got pregnant. I don't know, just stuff happened. And I was like, that thing is in the closet somewhere.

So I finally got it out and was like, does this still work? I turned it on and it looked like Windows 98 version. Oh really? And I was like, oh my God. So I had to go to like do a software update and then I did the software update went, oh good, we've entered the year 2025. But like the difference between when I bought it and like-

It's crazy. It's like four years or something. I was shocked. And so last night I and like, it's crazy. It's like four years or something. I was shocked. And so last night I was like, oh my God, someplace went to bed and I laid here and watched Netflix on the ceiling. I also watched Netflix with the helmet on. Yeah.

Because you're in a literal movie theater. It's a movie theater. Or like, there's like, last time I did it, it was a movie theater. I think there was also like at one point, like it looked like you were in your own home entertainment theater, like a lounge. What?

And then Juniper came and like snuggled with me and I was just like, I'm watching a fucking movie in my bed on the ceiling and I'm on the beach also, I think. This is the coolest thing that's ever happened to me. There was one called, I forget what it was called, it was beta, I think cause it was in beta. it was beta like cinemas or beta movies or something. And it was literally going into a movie theater and you can go into different theaters and there's other people who, anyone who's in that app, you can like see them sitting in the seats too with

you and you can like throw tomatoes at the screen and like shut the f up. That's amazing. Yeah, that was really fun for that was one of my COVID things is I would just go into like, I'd go into like beta cinemas and be like, and I guess I don't know how they pick. I don't know what the back end of that is because sometimes it was a movie playing sometimes it was like cutthroat kitchen and like, oh, there was there's always like a few options and I remember being like, I guess I'm gonna go watch chopped with a bunch of strangers now because I'm that fucking bored. The pandemic was a weird time. I'm so happy you're using it. Yeah I'm really excited and I was like I made an avatar and I was like do I can I add you as a friend? I didn't want to be weird I was like I don't know what the-

You can add me I don't I don't think we'll ever play a single similar game unless you're- Why? I like bars. I could go to the bar and get a drink from you that would be hysterical though if that was how it worked i would absolutely say come on bitch you never tipped you that'll be me oh what was her fucking name i called her like glargon or something but i can't remember every time i say it was something like that i think sure i think it's like a breed of aliens that's like the rude ones. I called her like Karen Blargon or something because she was such a little bitch. But anyway, I finally got my VR mask.

I entered the 21st century and it is Blazes, but I was like, I'm going to use it. And he's like, OK, good night. And I was like, I mean, I guess so. I reset the whole thing because it was like not connected to anything. We could probably do. I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of games we could do together. Like ping pong or tennis. We could do like Beat Saber.

It's like our hero. To panic at the disco. I'll never forget that moment. You can like battle each other like who does the song better. Oh, well, yeah, sure. I mean, I will. We know the answer. But yeah, I would love to do that with you I'm trying to think of like because I don't play a lot of games where like you connect and then like other people play

With you. Yeah, I don't know anything about it I've literally watched one YouTube video on it or one Netflix show on it and then was like this is a game changer So I haven't even understood what its actual capabilities are. I just watch TV in my goggles But that was really cool. So I'm really excited. And of course now I have it in my trash pile next to the bed. Actually, it's not a trash pile right now. It's just kind of like a big shelf.

That's a doom box. It's a doom box, thank you. Instead of on the floor for once. So I'll hit you up on my little, I made a little avatar and I have no clue if it looks like me. You'll have to tell me. I don't think mine looks like me. I think I gave up when I realized there wasn't,

none of them really looked like me. So I just kind of- Yeah, I guess it's hard to make a little virtual avatar actually look like a person. But yeah, so that's my fun fact of the day. I'm excited to, I wanted to text you, but it was also 2 a.m. And I was like, I so need to go to bed if I started talking about this Like I need to sleep

um, but it was kind of nice because I had all the lights off and I was just watching it on my goggles and then I just took the goggles off and rolled over went to sleep and I was like it's lovely Oh, you don't have to turn the tv off and turn the lights off and like Oh, it was so nice. I trust me. There's you're talking to someone who has been a big fan of virtual reality since COVID. I just can't believe it took me so long, but I think this sometimes happens. It just takes me a while to absorb it, and then I'm like, let's rock and roll. It took me a year to even do my VR, because my mom gave it to me in 2019 or something. Yeah, isn't there something weird where it feels like a big block?

I think I was overwhelmed with the idea. It's overwhelming. It was also around that time when all of my nerdy friends were like, it feels like a big block or like a... I think I was overwhelmed with the idea because it was also around... It's overwhelming. It was around that time when all of my nerdy friends were like, I'm gonna build a computer. And it had that same kind of intimidation to it for some reason when it was just like, put it on your fucking head and play a game.

I know, but I think that's what it was for me too. I was like, that seems like a project. Like, I don't have time for that. And then it was sort of a project because I had let it sit there for four years and it was like the year is 1998. And I was like, uh-oh, you better fix you. But other than that, it was pretty damn amazing.

I only started playing it because of COVID and I was like, well, I got nothing to do. And it actually, I think saved my mental health because a lot of people dealt with like depression. I never had a single mental health problem during the pandemic because I was just like talking to people all the time. It was really, really lovely.

Yeah, I love that you had no mental health problems at all during COVID. That's the coolest thing I've ever heard. As I said it, I went, oh, I have for sure fucked up my own brain. I can't wait for that to be a quote someday on Reddit. Like remember that time Em said they had not a single mental health problem during COVID.

As I said it, I went, I need to go to therapy. We recorded the entirety of COVID. Everyone already has the facts, okay? It's too like to change the narrative. They know how fucking crazed we were during that whole time, because everyone was. Everyone was much more hopeful than I just made it sound. But I do remember someone said something that dark when I asked the question and I like you can cancel people, like block them so you can't talk to them again. And I went, that was intense. And I just I've tried to I was like, this is my escape. And the fact that through a just like threw a tomato at them.

You were like, bye. I just said, I have to go now. And I think it looks like you logged off, but it's just like- That's hilarious. Yeah, you can mute people. Oh, and then they just see you disappear. Oh, see, I love this.

I was worried I'd get trapped into some conversation I didn't want to get trapped into or something. No, you can, you can literally fly away. So it's like- Literally fly. Oh, it's, so it's like lucid dreaming. Like I can just say what I want. Well, maybe not quite as, quite as, but yeah, okay, see? But as I said that whole thing,

I definitely had a mental thing. If the second reality hit me in my escape game, I went, okay, I have to leave. You have to go away, I'm gonna block you. Hey, actually, I'm gonna physically fly away with it. Actually. I take it all back, everyone. No, we know that you didn't really mean it,

but it just felt kind of funny how it was said so casually. And I was like, Hmm, we're just kind of breeze on past, huh? And say, because I think for the three years that we recorded the amount of like lunacy, we probably exuded on all those episodes would beg to differ. But I like your hopeful, like, uh, you know, rosy look on the past. I, it's... Listen, I'm joining you now. Thank you.

I'm gonna go and watch Chopped with a bunch of strangers and see what happens. I could find you at Beta Cinemas and go watch Chopped with you. That sounds fun. Hey! I would love that. Let's do it. I am going to kick this toy away because Hank thinks it's really nice to only chew it right next to the microphone. Aw. Can I have this, please? Up the ASMR. Oh, and now we're growling, great.

What? He thinks we're playing. Okay, can you bring that somewhere else, please? Thank you. Okay, we're good now. Wow, I love it. I love to see it. As soon as I touched it, he was like,-of-war and I went oh no, okay

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Cancel your own ones and subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash drink today. That's rocketmoney.com slash drink. Christine, I'm over being a single parent with this dog. I am losing a lot of sleep, but the sleep I am getting is wonderful. You want to lie? I thought we were talking all of that. But you know what?

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so I wasn't as concerned about that. My thing that has, it really has been keeping me feeling somewhat soothed at night because I really, this dog has me all over the place, but Balissy also promotes better sleep. So if you're getting it, it's gonna be a higher quality

and it's got a natural cooling, breathable magic, I'm gonna call it. And it's clinically proven to not clog pores. They also have a Wicked and a Harry Potter line. So like if you're, you know, on the fence, I think that's gonna win you over. It was also voted the most loved gift of 2024. Sorry, these are just all amazing, like little fun facts for you.

Because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk-free plus an additional 30% off when you shop at blissey.com slash drink pod. That's B-L-I-S-S-Y dot com slash drink pod and use code drink pod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. I need to go back to sleep. Uh, everybody, this is a story for you. It is not a three fucking parter. It's not a two parter. It's not about a little French girl who's lying either. Could it be about a two parter where there are two episodes in the middle that I didn't realize were two episodes and then I really stirred up some some much much some some

deserved criticism but also like a lot of feelings. And I, I... It's, it's not even that. Okay, good. And it's not even a story about Catholicism and Protestantism. You know what? That's the best news I've heard all day. Protestantism?

Is that what it is? Yep. Okay, great. It's not about that. Um, this is about a prison. And... Oh, good. And it's a prison in Joyzee.

Okay, I like a haunted prison. I Joyzee okay I like a haunted prison I mean I don't like a haunted prison but I like a haunted prison a lot more than Catholicism then a haunted church or a haunted like multiple live public exorcisms no you we both knew we'd be there. We'd be at the front row. Oh, we would be. We would have bought the FastPass. Okay, so this is the Burlington County Prison in Mount Holly, New Jersey. I did these notes several days ago, so I don't even totally remember this just perfectly. So if I'm impressed with you, then that's the ride we're going to ride. I love that. So up until this point, this was the early 1800s and the previous

jail was too far away. They wanted to build one that was closer to transport prisoners. Plus I think because I remember a source saying that because the original jail was so far away, it made flight risks easier. Either getting them there them there or once they got there, they were so far away from the courthouse that it was easier to flee or people find out later that they had escaped. Yeah, there's like more time to hide. Yeah. Yeah. More places, more rate of a circumference, a wider circumference.

More room for activities. So that was through up until the early 1800s. I think there was like two jails before this one in New Jersey. And I saw too that the original jail in this area was just somebody's house and he just put them there in his basement. I feel so like a serial killer being like, no, this isn't my house. This is a jail. Like, that's why I have people in the basement it's like no no no i'm doing a service yeah no no these are bad guys i just put them in my basement for jail so two jails later they're like this this isn't gonna work so they decide i think in 1806 that

they're gonna break ground and actually make the first real county prison that is next to the courthouse and not someone's house it's's not easy for flight risks. Um, you could transport the prisoners pretty easily. So by 1811, it took five years to build it. By 1811, the Burlington County prison was built and it was built by Robert Mills. Um, this was one of his first designs and he later went on to build the U S treasury building. He built the U S patent office. He built the U S post office, which like like I thought there was a hundred of those, but I guess he built the post office.

Obviously there's like 500,000 of those, but yeah. He built either the first one or the oldest one or the main one, I don't know. Or the coolest one maybe, I don't know. He also built the national monument and he built the wings of Independence Hall. The wings of, oh, like the wings? And then it flew away just like us in VR. I swear to god I was like oh again with the wings oh no like West Wing.

Yes so he ended up um can you hear him by the way? I thought you meant the guy the ghost guy you were like so he built the wings and he ended up, by the way, can you hear him? And I was like, in my head? What is it? Do you hear the people sing, singing the song? I was like, hey, bud, can you hear him? Cause then maybe I should call somebody. Maybe this dog really has like got you to go

under your rope now. That's just what my brain just went, and just just stabbed him. So sorry. No, I do not hear the dog. No, okay So why I was confused I was like, I don't hear anything. Okay, he's doing the Dog thing and it's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah People with hearing problems just like geo if that's the case, you know, okay cool

Got it. Okay, great. I love that. He's gonna take one for the team today. That's great He all listen, it's the least he can do that dog. Okay, okay So, okay, so that was Robert Mills He built all those things and that but before all that he I guess practices skills on this prison And he built this at the time in 1811. It was considered a state of the art I don't know how say of the art it can be in 1811. Maybe the fact that it's not in someone's basement. Yeah that's a good point. It was also, it had arched ceilings to help with air circulation and the building was fireproof.

That was pretty cool. I mean that's good if you're building a prison at least you're caring enough about air circulation. Yeah, that's kind. Okay, so Burlington County was also the first prison to have heat because he put fireplaces in all of the cells. I guess that's why he needed to be fireproof. Okay, that tracks, yeah. But it was the first prison to have heat because how many times have I talked about old prisons where the conditions were so bad

and people are freezing at night and blah blah blah. It's really, it's really sad. So I mean, I want to be like, yay, but also I don't want to be like, yay, because it's a prison and it's 1811. And I'm like, it's like when a guy called someone pretty. And it's like, I'm not gonna cheer for that. That's like their minimum. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so it was designed with rehabilitation in mind, unlike maybe today's system. But it was designed with rehabilitation in mind and actually caring for the prisoners to the best that they could, which is why they now finally had heat. It was the prison was known, it's known today as the first modern prison in the country. Okay.

Or maybe the first attempt at being modern. So one, it was heated by the fireplaces. Two, the basement had a workshop for inmates to work to pay off their debts and help develop skills for when they were released. However, the average time in this jail was only 90 days. So I don't know how much they were actually learning in time. But that being said, the skills they were learning were like broom and basket making. So maybe it only took 90 days to learn something like that. And I don't know how lucrative that is in the 1800s. If you're going to get out and then make millions making brooms. I mean, what do they do now?

Like license plates and what's the other thing? They're like firefighters and then they're not allowed to even be firefighters after they're released. And it's like, why the fuck do you have them fighting fires and they don't even get a job? Whatever. Is that pissing me off? And the pay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I guess it's similar enough where they're saying, oh, well, you have a job, but not really. I see the idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another way it was modern was that it was the first prison to put inmates into cell blocks based on their crimes versus like

Like having them all in one big ass room. Just a fucking smorgasbord. Yeah. Yeah, so before this prisons would just put everyone in a room regardless of their crime also regardless of their age and regardless of their sex. And sex. That was always the scary part like age, sex, and then like having a mix of every possible type of crime. I mean, woof. Yeah. So this one, it was one of, I think, the first prisons to also separate the women and children from men. Okay. First, I, it was, it did separate the women and children from men, but I think it was the first. I don't, I'm not too sure. Got it. Okay. I'm pretty sure it was the first. I'm not too sure. I'm pretty sure it was the first.

I would say that's pretty modern, I suppose. Certainly more modern than anything. Can you imagine if MAGA existed back then and they heard that we were keeping the women safe and they're like, ugh. They were like, why can't... Man's rights, something stupid. Man's rights.

Fun fact, what I say, regardless of age and sex, that still includes children too, because it's documented that children as young as 12 were incarcerated here. I just can't understand, but whatever. Like when did, that's something you should cover one day, like as a topic, is like the history of when 18 became the line and like when the juvies begin and like

can you imagine that'll be a 60,000 parter because like yeah that's a lot of history to cover yeah and also like i'll be on sometimes my i only go on facebook to see pictures of like haunted houses because i'm in all those like victorian groups and i'm like i've deactivated everything else i just like look at these posts and um i i saw one of like recently that I've seen a few times of like little girls who shucked oysters for a living. And it was like Moira is four and it was like 1830. And it's just like, and they're like so excited in their little dresses, but like they get up at 6 a.m.

to go shuck oysters to make like 18 cents for their family to survive. And it's like, oh, Jesus. So there's so much I feel like wrapped up, not even just like prison system, then like legal marriage age and like statutory rape, and then like labor laws. Like it's just like, there's probably- It's probably its own podcast, honestly.

That's maybe its own dissertation, I feel like, like an actual academic study. I'm sure it is. But anyway, yeah, that's fascinating, but also so sad. Yeah, so as young as 12, and I think the women and children were housed, I think together, and then the rest of the blocks were men. Okay, I mean, at least that, I guess.

At least that. So the women could barely leave their cells though. Yay, feminism, we're so modern. They could barely leave their cells though. Yay, feminism, we're so modern. They could barely leave their cells. They could not eat in the chow hall. They allegedly could not even work in the workshops or go outside during wreck time. And our favorite, they also still had to raise

their children while in prison. So their kids would move in with them. What the fuck, dude? Isn't that fun? What the fuck? Infants and toddlers are documented to have lived here in their mother's cells. Some were even born in the cell

and then raised while during incarceration. That's like room. Yeah, it's literally just, they moved into a new apartment with a fireplace. Hey, and it's fireproof. So But don't leave the room, but you're not So That's fun. There was that I did see there was at least like a six-month-old I think that moved in with a mom like who had been like put in prison right after giving birth this baby

And it's like I guess others at least the mother's not separated if she wants to, but like also- I guess maybe in their- Yeah, I don't know. It feels like there's pros and cons to that. I guess like it's like, it would be cruel in a different way to like separate a baby and a mom, I guess.

And just like put the kid in like foster care at six months old or something, right? If there wasn't another parent to care for them. But also, it's not cute. The rest is not cute, though. I like to think because so few children were documented here unless they were incarcerated for a crime they committed. Right.

So few of them just moved in that I like to think it was on a basis of like, if you couldn't find anybody else. Right, right, right. Yeah, I would hope so. I would hope so. So another fun fact is that women during this time were, this has nothing to do with the story. I just thought this was interesting.

That, hi Hank. Oh boy. Hi, hi. thought this was interesting that hi Hank oh boy hi hi you can't possibly be done with both of your toys no ah leave it absolutely not that's my headphone cord don't get it out of your mouth please okay okay no no okay okay Okay. No, no. Okay. Okay. No, leave it.

I'm trying to make it just you on the screen and I can't leave it. No, you can't. I know you know, leave it. Don't be an asshole, please Know I'm laughing so you think this is funny. It's not I'm gonna give you another toy. Okay. I'm gonna give you another toy You're being a puppy right now. I'm sorry. Oh, I want to stop. I'm sorry.

Okay. Thank you. Actually, can Hank and I just do the podcast together? Did he have anything insightful to say to that microphone? Yeah, it was game changing. Okay, no. Allison's gonna be mad because... Like the puffiest, mouthiest puppy.

I know, and he's not hurting. He's not like biting. He just wants to play. He was mouthy. But Alison's going to be mad because we learned no biting. We learned no biting. Hi. Now we have it on record that I'm not being as mean to you

as I need to be. There's nothing more that I love more than the mouthy little puppy. And I know it's. You want to do this? Great. Yes, I literally do. Please. I mean, not like for

a long term, but just for like gentle a few minutes. See he learned as soon as I said gentle what a sweet no not the water bottle. Oh my god. So this is random. This has nothing to do with the actual prison. But I learned about it while I was researching it and I thought it was interesting that women during this time, because anti-feminism of course, women during this time were charged with adultery far more than men. That does not surprise me, but to see it on paper made me sad. Yeah, that's wild because for men it was just like that's meant boys will be boys, you know, it's just like hard for the course but for a woman like God you have your duties,

you know, and also like if he's doing it like, you know, the Lord something whatever. Well, no if he's doing it's because you're not a P you're not you're not you're not doing your part. You're not doing enough. Right. Yeah, disgusting another fun thing him satisfied. Uh-huh. Yeah, he's straying because he has to

find something that you don't offer. Yeah. I've always had that. And we've always had that. So another fun fact I learned was before 1900, prostitution was almost never a charge. Like you see constantly in the 1900s, but it's probably because the word just changed. And it seems that before 1900 in like prisons, the census or something of people who were incarcerated, a lot of women were charged with disorderly conduct and they were charged with disorderly conduct

with the frequency that after 1900, they were charged with prostitution. Okay. So fun fact, if you're looking at a census or you're looking at information before 1900 and you see this early conduct is probably sex work. And it's so wild because it's like, well, obviously there's a clientele, right? I wonder who that is, you know?

I mean, obviously this is just old rehashed news, but like, it's just like, it just gets so fucking old, man. Yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to bring those up because I thought they were interesting. So when a new inmate would be brought to the prison, they would be washed and given new clothes in case of lice. I like that they were trying, I guess, for lice only. No, they probably just didn't want to deal with a lice infestation in the prison. Yes. Yeah, obviously. They also would get a straw mattress, yay.

Good. And a blissy pillowcase, no, I'm just kidding. Oh my God, I wish, yeah. A helix mattress. Listen, this is when I'm like, when we do these ads and I'm like, this is real people, I've never been so comfortable, but then I hear a straw mattress, I'm like,

well, I guess literally anything would be better than a fucking straw mattress. Imagine if you transported one of these women charged with adultery who's watching her baby right now in prison. Imagine if you brought her to 2025 and showed her a Helix mattress. She'd go, oh my fucking God.

Although then I wonder what were people sleeping on? Maybe they were sleeping on straw mattresses at home. Like, I don't know. It's not like they had fucking Helix mattresses at home. Yeah, but I wonder if people had like a brand of straw that was the best straw, you know? Oh, you know what? We could probably go through old like newspaper archives

and find like the ads. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Dr. Heyman's best straw for sleeping. Heyman, that's beautiful. Did you do that on purpose? No. You're literally meant to be an oracle. That was a Freudian joke.

That was the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. That was like the time I named, that was like the time I named Deb the Webbing Skylar and you were like, cause it was on a Skylight and you said, oh yeah, Christine, it's your friend. What's her name? And I went, Skylar.

And you were like, what the fuck did you come up with? I was like, I don't know why. And you said like Skylight. And I was like, oh, I didn't even put that together. There's something that has yet to be peer reviewed about you. It's a sickness. Yeah, it's a sickness. Have you heard my no CD ad?

Cause that might be something that might be related. Speaking of ads. Well, anyway. Thank you for even pointing out the joke that I didn't know I was making. I appreciate it. Beautiful. Made me feel better.

So if people would get washed and give a new clothes in case of lice, they would get only Mr. Heyman's finest straw for their straw mattress. That's Dr. Thank you so much. Dr. Heyman to you please. An MF, masters of farming, masters of straw. An MS.

No, an MA, a master of agriculture. Oh, straw, straw is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They would get a straw mattress, they would get a bucket and they would get a tiny Bible, even though most people couldn't read. Excellent. But Mills believed that part of the rehabilitation

of this prison should include religion. Right. So if you could read, then you would either, you could read the Bible for yourself or you could read it to others. You're treading on the nice here, my friend. You said this was not about Catholicism or Protestantism.

And I don't even know which religious. That's a great point. Maybe it was a Mormon Bible. Maybe, I don't know. A lot of twists. The motto over the prison door, by the way. I would say do you wanna- This ought to be good.

I'm just saying, do you want to guess but I just know that there's no way you would guess these words. I can't wait. Unless like if you did I would give you a million dollars. Okay hold on let me think. You there's no guess. If you get one word I will then know you a hundred today. Oh my God, that's how many post offices there are. Okay, you know what? I rescind my invitation. No, no, no, let me guess. Okay, one of the words is prosperity.

No. One of the words is to, T-O. Yes, you get $50. Okay, I should have said that one first. I get $100. Okay, it's justice, which while it punishes, would endeavor to reform the offender. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Okay, I get it. So they're basically saying, we're gonna fix you here. Yeah, yeah. While it punishes, it's also good for you. Yeah, it's gonna hurt, but it's gonna be for you. It hurts me more than it hurts you. Right, oh my God. It's for your better good. It's for your own but it's gonna be for your- It hurts me more than it hurts you. Right, oh my God, it's for your better good.

It's for your own good, yuck. So food, by the way, was not good. I don't know if you could tell. But, okay, so it was a modern prison, and it was modern, and it had enough of a budget where the food should have been good. However, the warden was told that he could keep the difference between whatever he bought for the prisoners. And like within the budget,

he was given a big ass apparently at the time, this was a lot of money, but each prisoner was supposed to get up to $1.50 worth of food every day. Okay. And I don't know what the actual number ended up being, but that was the number they were supposed to be given and the warden ended up pocketing a lot of that and giving them shittier food. And by going to Burlington Coat Factory like Michael Scott and getting a coat for himself instead of like using the extra money for good. So by definition it was a modern jail with like high quality everything but the warden was kind of under the table doing some shady stuff so the warden by the

way lived on the property and his wife was expected to oversee the women's ward which I love that that was that part of their fucking vows like why yeah yikes I'm gonna marry you oh and by the way can you watch the women's ward of this prison for me no or too bad you have to honey I just got a promoted to warden guess you're gonna now not get paid to watch the women for ward of this prison for me. No, too bad you have to. Honey, I just got promoted to warden. Guess you're gonna now not get paid to watch the women for me. You got an internship, an unpaid internship. You did it, wow.

And that was until 1909, by the way. And as of 1909, then they started hiring someone to actually watch the women's ward. But up until then it was for like 100 years, it was the warden's wife's job. It's a wild choice Another fun fact is that one inmate at this prison was Albert de salvo and he was here He was here for lewd and indecent exposure and that's it, but he later went on to become the Boston Strangler Yes, I was like the name the name. I that chapter, a chapter on him on our first book.

So before he ever started strangling, he was doing some lewd stuff, which got him put in this jail. Or at least before he was ever caught for doing some strangling. So the basement had the workshop where maybe only the men could make baskets and brooms. Usually the basement would be the dungeon of a prison

or like max security because there it's like in the rumblings of the foundation. Yeah. But in this jail, one of the other modern things about it was that their dungeon, which they called it a dungeon, is on the top floor and it's the center cell of the top floor. Penthouse suite.

Yeah, right? So this was one to stop inmates from digging their way out to if they're on upstairs. I can't dig. Right, like some Shawshank shit. Yes. It was also to stop communicating with other people without guards ears around.

Okay. You know? Because otherwise they could be murmuring down there. Right, fair point. And it was also to guarantee that guards were monitoring them because otherwise they could be murmuring down there. Right, fair point. And it was also to guarantee that guards were monitoring them because if they were in the center cell, the guards had to constantly be passing them. Gotcha, okay, okay, so they're like on display more. Pretty much, yeah.

So this, there was only one cell like this and it was the only cell without a fireplace, because I guess fuck you if you're in the dungeon. That's your punishment. It's the feel like a dungeon, it's cold. Yeah, even though you have a beautiful view of the joysy shoreline. But not really, because the next thing I'm gonna say is that they had a very tiny window

and it was too high up for them to look through. I spoke too soon, okay. They were also expected, if you were staying in the dungeon, you were, there was a ring in the center of the ground and you were chained to it and you were chained to it naked. Okay, wow, this just got very much worse. So that way you could use any of your clothes as a weapon or of harm.

And to keep you in the centers, that way you couldn't try anything, anyway. Okay, that's rough, yep. So the dungeon is the worst room. Out in the yard, there were stocks, like you put the holes, you put your hands in. And there was a spot for gallows to be set up and broken down.

And the dungeon was used, if you're wondering why it was like so harsh, it was usually used as the last night before an execution. It was just to keep you oh I'm trying to get away So they would just like chain you nude to a circle note with no window knowing that it was your last day on earth Like what the actual fuck I mean, it's not like execution in and of itself is like a delightful thing obviously, but Is no good way? No, right? Like but no wonder this place is fucking haunted, you know, like

So seven people were hanged on the property. Okay. Um Then there were two more people who stayed at this prison I am so sorry. We really try not to talk about this anymore because it's probably annoying But em just was saying two more people and a bunch of balloons. Up in the air. The MacBooks have these effects and if you're not careful, you'll be counting and it'll be like, oh, are we celebrating?

And it's like, why the fuck would I be celebrating? I'm talking about executions on a prison ground. So messed up. Anyway, just for the folks who are not watching the video and can't see us like do like a We are our eyes dilating our eyes going. Ah, okay. Um wolf. Okay, go on seven seven were hanged on the grounds There were two others who lived here and were technically on death row, but they were executed elsewhere. Okay, okay Um one of those two people was a woman who killed her husband. The other person was a guy named Joel,

and he stabbed either his girlfriend to death or a woman who rejected him to death. Different sources say different things. I'm gonna go with a woman who rejected him. Yeah, bad, yeah. And his name was Joel. He was one of the people who was executed elsewhere but stayed here.

So I only mention that because he is gonna get brought up again later. Okay. As for the prisoners that were executed on the property, most of them died of strangulation and not actually the broken neck. Okay. The final two people to be hanged here, it was done at the same time because they were both to be hanged here. It was done at the same time because they were both co-accomplices in the same murder. So that's a fun fact, I guess. Double murder.

That's like Pearl Bryant's two people simultaneously hanged. Yes. And that was in 1906. That was the last execution year. 1906, okay. And fun fact, at their double execution, it was obviously a public execution, and the ropes used to kill them were cut up and taken as souvenirs by the crowd. Oh, God, I mean. Which I guess was common at the time,

but it's still so wild to even say it. It's one of those things to me that I almost feel like one person does it, and then someone's like, okay, I guess we're all doing it. And like, it kind of becomes a thing where it's like... You know someone did that and then like brought it as a gift to someone's like, oh, you couldn't be there, but I got this for you.

And someone's like, thanks, I guess. Yeah, that's a red flag. Yeah. So... I was thinking of you the whole time. Like, thanks, I guess. Yeah, that's a red flag. Yeah. So I was thinking of you the whole time. Like, I sure hope not. Jesus Christ. So in the 1920s, yes, this was this is I'm going to start talking about some of the deaths that happened on the property. So during an escape attempt, an inmate beat a guard to death with a metal bar. Then on his way out, he had to pass the kitchen and another guard was there and saw him escaping. So he beat that guard to death with the same metal bar.

Jesus Christ, okay. Interestingly, years later, there would be another escape attempt where the exact same thing happened where with a metal bar, a guard was killed. And then on the way out in the kitchen, another guard was killed with a metal bar. What? So it repeated, the same thing happened again.

Wow, creepy. Isn't that weird? There were actually several escapes over the years, at least 70 on record, but definitely more. And that's 70 in like 150 years or something. So that's like one almost every other year. Yeah, yeah. In 1876, this is one of the

most popular escape things, escape attempts, is that in the 1870s, five men, this is like breaking into Wallace, five men punched a hole through the ceiling of their prison cell, like just kept punching until there was a hole in the ceiling. Oh, okay. Like was it just shitty drywall? Like what was the quality of these materials that you could just punch through a ceiling? I guess maybe if you're thinking of like building a prison, you're like, oh, we'll just make the walls really thick. And then you don't think to make the ceiling really thick. I have no idea.

Did they all stand on, like sit on each other's shoulders so they could get up there and just... Was it the one in the top of the penthouse suite? Were they up there standing on the ring or something? I don't know, that's crazy. Yeah, five of them all, and then only four of them could escape because the fifth one couldn't fit

out of the hole that they punched. By that... That's actually pretty sad. It's almost like we were rooting for you. It's almost quite sad, yeah. Another escape attempt, remember this one It's almost quite sad. Yeah. Another escape attempt. Remember this one. His name is Eddie.

Okay. This was in 1933. He tried to escape and he was in the after dinner gang. Have you ever heard about them? The after dinner gang vaguely? I think I have, but I don't know. They were a group in New Jersey where they would rob wealthy homes of people who were out to dinner.

Oh, that's kind of clever. I mean, you know, not approving of that, but like I get it, you know. I like the name. It's whimsical. It does. It feels a little more whimsical than it actually is. You have to did a gang, see?

Yeah, it feels old timey. So Eddie escaped by sawing his window bars off and then Rapunzel-ing down the building with his bed sheets. Wow. Wow. So we'll talk about him again later. So Eddie and Joel.

Joel is one of the people who got executed off the property. Yep. Okay. So in the 60s, this building closed after it needed a bigger facility. And when it did close, this is a fun fact about the prison, it was the oldest continually run prison in the country. Oldest continually run. Oh, wow.

Okay. So when it first opened, it was the first modern prison in the country and it was the oldest continuously used. I bet you it was the first prison to have a hole punched through the ceiling from the inside. But I mean, I could be wrong. Usually it's three people in a trench coat, the same it was five and they were all punching the air.

Yeah. So there was countless violence here. I mean, I just scraped over some of the- Of course. But there was obviously at least seven executions here. There were murders here of guards and inmates. There were suicides. There was a lot of darkness.

And now it is one of the most haunted buildings in New Jersey. So it has been haunted since at least the 1830s. Wow. Wow, yeah, that was early from when it, when was it built? 18? 1811, so 22 years in it was already haunted.

Oh boy. Which I've, every time, I know we always talk about this and we're like stupid Americans and like there are buildings much older than ours. But anytime there's a ghost beyond like the 40s, I'm blown away. Like I just I just forget that like there could be people back then that were also dealing with ghosts. It just doesn't like like if they had haunted experience. Yeah.

Well, remember the Victorians though you they like loved fucking loved ghosts. I know, but it still doesn't even like cross my mind. It's kind of wild to think, because now, yeah, because now we feel like they're the ghosts, the Victorian lady in his egg dress, even though she was the one doing seances. No, maybe that's why she's always a ghost, because she was the one doing seances all the time and she's like, yeah, it's like chicken or the egg. It's like, were you the ghost or did you create the ghost? Yeah.

Wow, deep. I know. Hank, did you hear that? I'm deep. Don't you dare bring him back over there, Em. You're gonna regret it. He's eating a peanut butter ball, he's fine. So yeah, the 1830s was their first ghost and it was that guy Joel who was executed off the property.

Wow, he came back, huh? He came back immediately. And so he went to the prison, then he tried to escape and when they caught him, they're like, okay, we can't trust you, we're gonna put you in the dungeon and then you're just gonna stay there until we can hang you. Okay.

Despite being hanged elsewhere, he was buried on the property. Oh, so they brought him back, okay. After he died, they brought him back and now where he's buried, there is a very large tree. So after his hanging guards and prisoners always hear voices and moaning and rattling chains both in his old cell and near that tree. Oh rattling chains always gets me. And he was would have been the only person chained because he was in the dungeon.

And he was getting executed oh yuck okay. People also smell cigarettes he's in the dungeon. And he was getting executed. Oh, yuck, okay. People also smell cigarettes. He's apparently the oldest ghost of them all here. I can't imagine being a ghost since the 1830s. Oh my God. Oh my God, hopefully. Talk about needing a career change. But hopefully it's true what they say that these, that these career change,

these ghosts don't really understand time. I'm always like, that's all I can hope for is that they don't understand time because woof, that would be, I'm sorry. I've said woof five times today and the first time I said it, I spoke... Are you Hank? I know, maybe. Maybe we're speaking telepathically. Sleeper agent. Sleeper agent. I was thinking, don't say that anymore, but I think then the reverse psychology hit me where I was like trying not to say it. So it kept coming into my consciousness.

Anyway, I do apologize. I know that really bothers some people and it kind of bothers me. So I'm like, why do I keep doing? I don't know. It's just something about it. When I overuse it, it annoys me. Like I-

It's like when I say raw dog, Christine hates it. Oh, I hate it. Oh, I hate it. Christine also says it. I did say it's like becomes an, hey, have you heard my no CD ad because it comes in intrusive. You know what, I think that's literally what's happening. It felt like an intrusive thought and then I couldn't stop saying it. So I do apologize. But the sentiment stands,

yikes. I'll say it that way. Sure. Sure. So in the 1990s, they started doing renovations on this place. They started in the 1990s after like 200 years. They were like, hmm, what do we do about these fireplaces that are the only heat source? There's still a big hole in the ceiling. Yeah, there's a big hole in the ceiling. Jesus. So workers saw apparitions, they heard voices, tools went missing and they found, oh, so tools went missing.

This part's really fucking creepy. Usually it's like, Oh, and then they were found in another area. Apparently they were found in locked cells. Oh, the items. Oh, yuck. Isn't that crazy? That's cool. That's, that's actually is kind of bitching. Yeah. Yeah. That's bitching. Oh yeah. Some workers started actually trying to get out of work early just so they weren't the last ones there,

which I totally get. And they were so freaked out that I guess enough of them refused to come back and it led to the county officials having to reach out to paranormal investigators to verify these claims. Oh my Lord, okay, okay. And right away, investigators are getting activity. They've done many investigations since.

According to them, the most active hours are 8 p.m. to midnight. The third floor where the dungeon is is the most haunted. The most common haunt is a man in a prison uniform walking in the basement. Ew. Don't like that. People have seen apparitions in empty cells.

They've also seen apparitions on the stairs. They've seen items in the dungeon levitating. They have seen objects move on their own or knock themselves off of shelves. One time investigators found a quote, single barefoot print on the dust covered floor in a room that nobody had gone to. That's sick.

Barefoot. That's really bad. Toes and all. Because like, then you look around and you're like, anyone here barefoot? It's like, everyone show me your shoes. Hey, anybody at work right now barefoot? No? Huh.

So one investigator went over to the gallows and actually, they alleged they were, they got frozen in place, like not of their volition. Like they- Like paralyzed almost? They got paralyzed and then saw an apparition of two men being brought to the gallows. Oh my God. So they basically saw like a vision. Machines will turn off by themselves, especially near the tree where Joel was buried. People hear conversations all over the place.

They'll hear two people talking when they know no one else is talking. They've gotten EVPs of men speaking into the machines for them. Investigators have gotten videos of orbs at the same moment that a motion sensor alarm goes off so they can see something moving at the same time it triggers. People have gotten pictures of humanoid figures and moving shadows. People see lights in the cells turn on and off or I guess like anomalies, light anomalies. People have gotten their hair pulled, and this is my least favorite thing, is a stretcher has moved itself around the floor. Oh no! Firm fucking pass. Why is there a stretcher in there,

first of all? I guess where else are you going to put it? Great question. But like yikes. If you don't want a stretcher rolling around your prison, your old haunted prison, don't put a stretcher in there. It's like putting a rocking chair in your room. You know what's gonna happen. I kinda do wanna know the origin of the stretcher. Is that a 200-year-old stretcher? Or did someone bring that as a funny thing?

Or is it there for emergency, as an emergency kit, and it's just getting getting tossed around who knows. My best guess is it's like a Zach Bagans brought it for a bit and then left it or something and then didn't want to bring it back. Yeah. Or like a Halloween thing. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, could be Halloween thing.

That's true. So like I said, the hotel officially closed in the 60s in the mid 60s after needing a bigger facility. And now it is on the National Register of Historic Places and runs as a museum. They do self-guided tours, audio tours, and they do personal guided tours, if you set it up early enough. On display, I thought this was interesting,

some of the things that are here, there is a, yikes, a piece of rope from that execution that is now on display at the prison. Which like, did the prison keep it or did someone like have to eBay buy that like auction it or what? No, I bet you somebody like had it just that there if it was like if a bunch of people in the area had just been collecting them, somebody might have like donated it to the

museum. That's a great point. You know, like when I go to the fucking art museum last month and I see this like these beautiful Egyptian artifacts, a literal mummy and I see this like these beautiful Egyptian artifacts a literal mummy and then it says like donated by like Barbara so and so and I'm like yeah you doing with this well it's like their white ancestors like all stole shit and now they're like oops here have it you know which I am like at least they're giving it to the museum but yeah anyway well another but you see that a lot where it's like, yikes. Yeah, anyway.

Well, another thing that they have on display in this museum now is a mini replica of the SS St. Paul boat, because apparently an inmate worked on that boat. And from memory while he was incarcerated, he made the boat out of spare items he found around the prison. And so now that little replica is on display. Oh, that's kind of cool.

I mean, yeah, I guess you do a lot by memory at that point. You just feel like, I guess I'll just make this. I got nothing else going on. That's actually kind of cool, I guess. Not only is the prison a museum, but here's the thing. This is my favorite fun fact, and I don't know how to feel about it, but you do what you want with this.

Remember Eddie from the After Dinner Gang, and he escaped by repulsing down with his bedsheets? favorite fun fact and I don't know how to feel about it but you do what you want with this. Remember Eddie from the After Dinner Gang and he escaped by repunzling down with his bedsheets? This prison slash museum also offers an escape room. Oh my god! Based on Eddie's escape from the prison. Oh my god so an interactive experience in the place where the real story happened. Oh my lord in heaven. Okay. So if you would like to do that, that's are you supposed to climb out of a window with a bed sheet? I hope that's not part of it. I think it's all like symbolic or something. Okay, because I was like, how would they do that? That feels like a really bad idea. I don't know.

And I got, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm holier than now. And if I were in this prison and I was going on a museum tour and I heard there was an escape room, I'd probably do the escape room. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting idea, I guess. It's not like they're doing an interactive like execution, you know, or something. Yes, 100%.

But like, it's just strange. Like the whole thing was he climbed out the window. So it's like, what is the actual? Maybe it's like you need to find the bedsheets to be able to escape. I don't know. But but I thought it was I thought it was interesting. I like the I don't know why more people haven't tried that as like a bit of like an escape room in a jail where people escaped. Yeah, I mean, it could be in a really interesting like, way to tell the history, right? Like, yeah. And in a world of capitalism, it would make quite a few places on preservation

society lists some money. If I mean, the places that are I don't see why. are do I don't see why well I don't see it's any less ethical than places that do haunted house haunted house attractions in old prisons More a little bit I would say because anyway But yeah interesting. Um, wow So the last thing I'll say is that the prison also offered It it offered itself up I don't know if this was just for Halloween or people only do it on Halloween by choice, but it offers itself up as a wedding venue. Okay.

And recently, this was in People Magazine. During Halloween, three couples got married. They all dressed up and like, like one of them dressed up like they were in the Beetlejuice wedding. Like intentionally leaning into the spooky. And it was officiated by the county clerk who dressed up in witches' robes. Okay. And the building has recently had

a $3 million restoration project done to it. So it is very restored compared to what it was. One main goal was to preserve as much of the wall graffiti as possible. Oh, cool. And the graffiti is only from the 1950s because that was the last time that the walls were painted. So it's not from the 1800s.

Oh, I see. But it's 1950s. And a lot of the graffiti here is noticeably religious compared to other prisons where it's more violent and sexual. So it confirms that maybe the religion was helping with their rehabilitation, maybe. It was, yeah.

Or they were just leaning into it. Maybe it was like for good behavior. It's like, well, I graffitied Jesus on the wall. So look at this big cross I put, does that help? Yeah. Most of the graffiti is gone now, but some pieces have been saved, including countdowns of getting out of jail,

love notes, Bible verses ahead of Jesus, and by memory an 18th century map of Philadelphia. Oh, okay. That's wild. What an interesting choice, okay. In the solitary cell, the dungeon, I think, there is graffiti that says, "'My life is in darkness.

"'Where is God? "'Can you tell me? "'Where can I go? "'Will I ever find him? "'I hope so.'" Oh my God. And a personal favorite is this drawing of an eyeball with the words, we're watching you. You can't get out.

And then on the and then on the opposite wall, it says, don't look over the door behind you, which is where the eyeball is. Oh, weird. Is that like a prank? I guess so. It's like a creepy fucking prank. Last last thing I have for you because I couldn't not talk about this is that in 2007 an escape artist came to visit the Museum her name was the great sindini. Yeah. Well first of all a plus and I guess I don't know if she came to do this or she said I'm an escape artist and then the Museum curator it was bored that day. I don't know how this came to be,

but they decided to test the great Sindini's abilities. And the museum let her be straight jacketed, handcuffed and locked in the dungeon. Ah! And then this is a quote from the article. Around 10 people watched as she was confined, and then they all walked downstairs. When they reached the bottom,

they were amazed to turn around and see the great Sindini following them on the stairs. Ah! Ah, never doubt the great Sindini. And that is the, not the Burlington Co. factory, the Burlington County Prison. Oh, I didn't even make that connection when I said Burlington Co.

No wonder it was on my mind. See, this is what I'm saying. It's all these intrusive thoughts, I swear. Wow, Em, what a story. I love to hear about a haunted prison. There's something so obviously haunted about a prison that just makes it that much more believable, like a hospital. Like, of course it's haunted.

Of course, of course. Wow. This podcast is sponsored by the crisp, refreshing angry orchard. Listen guys, there is a ton of stuff out there that we shouldn't get angry about, but let's be honest, sometimes it's hard not to be. Sometimes Em gets a little bit angry when the dog

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of traditional cider making apples, resulting in a complex yet refreshing hard cider. It's so delicious. Grab an angry orchard cider today. Don't get angry, get orchard. Please drink responsibly. All right, yes, you all know that I have OCD, right? We've talked about it. I finally figured out halfway through recording the podcast, not like the podcast episode,

but like the years of doing the podcast. I was finally diagnosed and it answered so many questions, but it didn't necessarily fix anything. OCD is so much more than just the stereotypes. It's a seriously and highly misunderstood condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful, unwanted thoughts, repetitive behaviors. These intrusive thoughts can be scary, disturbing,

completely out of character. I mean, listen, we're doing true crime and paranormal stuff. Like it doesn't help, right? Not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure and response prevention. And general talk therapy is not recommended for OCD and can make it worse. So maybe ERP is the way. Yes, I've done ERP since I was first diagnosed and it has changed my entire life.

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Well, i've got a doozy for you today. Um, this is the story of hannah anderson and jim de maggio So this story takes place in 2013, specifically Saturday, August 3rd. Hannah Anderson, she is enjoying a fun yet average day at her high school's summer cheer camp. She's 16 years old. She was coaching some of the younger girls on the team. So she's sort of like, I guess you'd call it

like varsity level, like helping the younger teams and helping coach them. She had an eight-year-old brother named Ethan, and he was also at school on this Saturday because he had football practice. Okay. The younger girls that Hannah were coaching were on the squad that cheered for Ethan's team.

So basically, you know, Hannah is coaching these young girls that are preparing to cheer for the football team that her brother's on. Their mother, 44-year-old Christina Anderson, who went by Tina, had picked Ethan up after practice earlier that day, but cheer camp went on later into the day,

so Hannah was still at school. When Hannah finished, she was expecting a ride home from her uncle Jim. So uncle Jim is this 40-year-old guy. His birth name is James DiMaggio, home from her uncle Jim. So uncle Jim is this 48 year old guy. His birth name is James DiMaggio, but he goes by Jim. He wasn't Hannah's uncle by blood, but he had been a best friend to her father, Brett, for 15 years.

And he was basically like the closest friend that the family had. He was always in the picture. He acted like a second father to both of the kids. He was really involved in their daily lives. He was a member of the family. People described him as caring and thoughtful. He loved animals. So he was always taking care of people's animals. And he most notably loved his gray cat, Oliver, and you know, on him. The Andersons often relied on Jim. Hannah and her mother went through a difficult period

in their relationship and like as a lot of teenagers and their parents do. And so sort of as like a journaling almost, exercise or venting, she would channel her frustrations and worries into letters that she and Jim wrote back and forth as like pen pals. So she would kind of just vent about what was going on. And he would always respond with advice

and words of encouragement. In 2013, Hannah's parents were separated. So Tina and Brett split. Brett moved to Tennessee for work, and that's when Jim stepped up to kind of be the stepdad role. But he never had a, there was never any signs that he had a sexual relationship with

or romantic relationship with Tina. It was almost like he was just- It's just like a- Like a father figure sort of type, yeah. Sure. Jim lived in a cabin in Boulevard, California which was a mountain town with just over 300 residents in 2013, so pretty small town.

And Hannah and her brother went there often. They would go when their mom wasn't able to watch them. They would ride go-karts out there. They were like just remote outdoors so they could explore and run around. Jim would speak with Brett, his friend, and Hannah's dad regularly. He cheerfully described that he had taught Ethan

to shoot a BB gun and how much fun they were having. But things kind of went downhill soon because according to one of Hannah's friends, Jim told Hannah's family that his home was in foreclosure and he would have to move out and relocate to Texas. And so they were all really sad and honestly, I think probably stressed that this person

who's been such a help was moving. Yeah, getting out of there. Yeah, so he invites the family over for one last weekend at the cabin. So Saturday, August 3rd, Tina had picked up Ethan from football practice and had gone to the cabin. Okay. Now Hannah is getting picked up by Jim from cheer camp at 4 p.m. And they're all gonna go meet to the cabin. Okay. Now Hannah is getting picked up by Jim

from cheer camp at 4 p.m. And they're all gonna go meet at the cabin for like one final, for one last hurrah. The next evening, authorities responded to a raging fire at Jim's cabin. Oh shit. Firefighters battled to subdue the blaze, but the situation was completely hopeless.

The whole fire was consumed and firefighters noticed smoke rising from the detached garage. And inside they found Hannah's mom, Tina, beneath a tarp and she had been killed. Oh no, oh no. She appeared to have been bound at the ankles and suffered severe bludgeoning trauma

and there was a crowbar on the floor at her side. Which, whoever did this wasn't even hiding what they did. It was, I mean, maybe they were trying to burn the evidence, but a crowbar can't melt. You would just leave that next to the body? That's pretty brazen. Yeah, and leave her feet bound, and I mean, there's no, yeah, no. Wow.

Hannah and Ethan did not appear to be on the property. The grandparents reported both children missing, which triggered an Amber alert. And fun fact, this was the first Amber alert in California to be issued over cell phone networks to individual cell phones. So the alert urged, and you know that sound, like that alarm. Like the first one of those must have been really scary

if you didn't know what it was. You must have been like, what the fuck is going on? My phone is exploding, yeah. But you know what? Got everyone's attention. You got it, yeah, it worked, it did its job, right? So the alert urged the public to look out for a blue Nissan. The blue Nissan, of course, belonging to Jim DiMaggio, formerly beloved family friend,

now a key suspect in this murder and potential kidnapping and arson, you know, all of these things all of a sudden. When the cabin had finally finished burning, firefighters discovered a small child's body in the rubble. It was Ethan. It was Ethan. The remains were too badly burned

to be identified at first, but DNA confirmation allowed them to determine that yes, it was Ethan. But that meant Hannah was somewhere and they did not know where because she was not on the property. The case became a national manhunt, especially knowing that Hannah could be,

the clock is ticking, right? So this national manhunt was executed in cooperation by local and state police, US Marshals and the FBI. Surveillance footage captured an image of Hannah and Jim on the road together around midnight. And the route they were driving made investigators suspect that they were going north. So they were able to like at least track that.

And the Amber alert was then issued for multiple states, including Oregon and Washington, in case they made it past California. Jim had rigged timed incendiary devices to start the fire at his house. Oh my God. Basically that meant he had left hours before the fire even started.

Wow. Giving him like that heads up or that, what do you call it? That, um, head start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Head start. Heads up works too. Heads up.

I mean, I- Well, yeah. Giving them a head start. Head starts better. Yeah. So basically giving them several hours of a head start, meaning they could be anywhere. 40 minutes away, residents of Lakeside, which was the Anderson's hometown, held candle night vigils. They spoke to the media about Hannah.

They were trying to get the message out as best they could. And one of Hannah's friends actually addressed her on camera and said, Hannah, if you have a moment alone and the chance to run, take it. If you have a moment alone and the chance to run, take it. Oh my God. Just give me chills. Oh my God. And so people, no one's thinking, like, no one's thinking, what if we just missed her in the rubble? Like people know that she's with him.

Yeah, she's not, she was not there. Yeah. They know that she's gone. So as a community hope for Hannah's safe return, it also had to mourn Tina and Ethan. Like I said, they had later confirmed it was him via DNA. And friends were totally blindsided by this, of course. They described Tina as loving, involved, a nurturing parent. They said everything she did, she did for her children.

And despite their recent separation, even her ex Brett said she was a great mother and a great wife. So like, this is not something where people are pointing to her as being the problem here. Thank God. She was much admired as was Ethan, who was remembered as just a really kind child.

They were a very, very loving family and people had always thought Jim was part of that. And so this was especially shocking to people who knew them. Brett said, so his friend, the father of Hannah and Ethan, Brett said that in retrospect, he might have seen red flags that Jim showed inappropriate interest in his daughter. For example, he sometimes took Hannah on day trips to places like Malibu and Hollywood, but Brett and Tina truly considered Jim an uncle who just liked having a relationship with the kids and had fun taking them places.

He'd been by Hannah's side since she was born, and as the parents, they never felt like anything they heard him say was inappropriate or uncomfortable Okay, Jim even briefly lived with Hannah's grandmother while he saved up for a house and one of Hannah's Grandparents said Jim would have done anything for their family and they would have done anything for him So there was just I mean he was fully enmeshed in the family fully I was so wild that friends were like we didn't hear him say anything inappropriate because all my uncles do are say like, you're not, not that I, he, my uncles have never done anything.

Yeah. But I feel like it's almost weird that he, it feels to me like he was on like his best, best behavior in front of people. I had that same vibe of like, well, yeah, and we'll get to it because I think you're onto something because I was having that same inkling of like well It sounds almost like he's trying really hard to be that perfect person in Everyone has an uncle who says fucked up things. Yeah, right There's like a drunk uncle sketch on SNL of like all the shit that like a red flag that he

Didn't ever give creepy uncle vibes. And also, I'm always like, why is he taking the kids all day places? Like, what fun is that? Like, I get it if it's... That's a fine line, right? Because it's like, of course, it's fun to like take the kids out to a thing. But I mean, maybe it's now like being a parent, I look at it a little differently. But... Is he only taking out Hannah or he's taking both of them?

He was known to take Hannah out. OK, it's weirder that it's just Hannah. But she was also much older, not much, but like, you know, eight years older. So it's like, you know, when she's a teenager, that's different. Maybe it's like in hindsight, it just all makes sense. But that's kind of what. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. And I want to be clear,, like I'm not blaming any of these family members or anything who did not know.

Like that is not what I'm doing. I'm just, you know, it's one of those things where you look back and like you said, hindsight is kind of a 2020, but God, you know, see something, say something folks. It's just, it's just really sad. So even Jim's friend, so Jim had a friend who was a social worker and a mental health counselor.

And even he did not, he's a social worker, even he did not see any red flags when the group camped together. Like they went camping and Jim was like talking about the Andersons and the kids and how much he loved the family. And even this guy who is a social worker and a health counselor was like, I literally never picked up on anything strange.

So like he must be a sensational actor. He must be. I mean, even you just said, see something, say something, but he's not giving anyone anything to see. Exactly. And so that's kind of where I think you're exactly right. He knows what he's doing. I just watched a bird take a shit on my house lamp.

What do you mean your house lamp? The light by your door. Oh, like the porch light? Porch light. I just watched him. I just watched it happen. This is fantastic content. I'm sorry.

That had nothing to do with it. I'm just so mad that you didn't turn the camera because we would have liked to see that too. I literally thought, I didn't want to interrupt you because you were saying something really fucked up and I was like I wish if we were in a different situation I'd take a picture because I know you like looking at birds and then I just watched him go I literally saw you looking at something and I went well either there's someone coming to murder you or there's a fun animal outside and it was the fun animal thank god but um i'm only saying it because it's so rare

you ever see a bird poop and like why would you do it on my property anyway well um maybe you should think on that later i'm sorry that was like again i was like trying to keep it together because we were in the middle of something you are very close to your porch right now so that would have been a really unpleasant thing to witness and i i don't feel you need to apologize. I'm interrupting you now. No, no, no, please don't worry. So like you said, yes, he's doing, see something, say something, but he is not giving really any creepy signs that people can pick up on.

And I think that kind of gives a lot of credence to the family. And again, I don't wanna make it sound like they should have done something if they didn't know. So anyway, moving on. So again, no red flags that anyone could pick up on, yet autopsy reports showed that Tina had been bound by the ankles and badly beaten before she was killed

and Ethan likely died in the fire. Even the Anderson's dog had been shot to death and was left in the fire. So this is, and remember like his whole thing is animals. So like he clearly. Yeah. Also his like best friends are so short, or you would think he was like a safe guy to be around.

Right. It's sort of like he's giving off. And that's the scary thing is like, people think like, oh, if I were around that I would have noticed, I would have witnessed. It's like some people can be so, Yeah. So chameleon like that you just will never see it.

He masked it so well. Masking, yes, exactly. So the Andersons extended family were so taken aback, they could not reconcile this. They could not reconcile the gym they knew with what he had done. However, and this is where your point completely comes to fruition,

Hannah's teenage friends knew something that the adults didn't. He was in fact creepy. Yes. I told you someone had to know he was a creepy uncle. Someone knew and it was all the teenagers. And that's why when I say, see something, say something, I'm not accusing these kids,

how would you know you're a child? But please encourage your children to see something, say something to feel'm not accusing these kids, how would you know you're a child? But please encourage your children to see something say something, to feel safe to come to you. It's just so hard. I mean, I'm not, this is just another one of those lessons that's like a reminder, not a lesson, but like a reminder of like how important it is, because this is 2013, you know,

that's like a little over a decade ago, not even that long ago. So Tana's friends, when investigators talked to them, they knew some stuff the adults didn't. For example, 15-year-old Marissa Chavez said that months earlier, she was riding home from a gymnastics competition with Hannah and Jim, when Jim told Hannah, like in front of Marissa,

that he had a crush on her and would like to date her if she was his age. Remember this man knew her since birth since the day she was born. Oh my god and it's your best friend's kid? Yeah. Your niece basically. Yeah. Yeah. Hannah and her friend planned to go to Jim's house after gymnastics to play video games,

which was something they did all the time. So Hannah asked if she could invite her other friend who was a boy. And Jim said he didn't want Hannah, he didn't want to see Hannah with a boy because he had a crush on her. Like, forget it. Like, get out of here.

He described it as a family crush. What in the fuck does that mean? Incest? What in the fuck does that mean? A family crush is something only incest. What in the fuck does that mean? Incest? What in the fuck does that mean? Family crush is something only incest. Is that supposed to make it better? Like that is not better. What are you talking about?

Do you imagine if I was like, no, no, no, I just have a family crush on my mom. My cousin or something. What do you mean? That's nothing. That's nothing. It was a family crush and he only wanted to protect her. I mean, it just makes me so sick to my stomach. Hannah, thankfully, she is like no dummy. She's like disturbed by this whole thing and is like, fuck this,

I don't feel comfortable around this guy. And another friend said, he told Hannah not to talk to Jim anymore, but Hannah is in this like situation that we see so fucking often where she didn't wanna damage, she knew how much her mom needed this guy to help around the house and to help raise the kids.

And she was like, I don't wanna rock the boat. Like I don't wanna- That happens so often. It happens all the time. You find a vulnerable kid who like, you can hold something over their head so that way they don't say anything. The threat is there.

And it's like, it's so insidious. And like talk about grooming, you spend 15 years with this family, making yourself a family member to do this. Like it's, it's, ooh, gives me like seriously shivers. So she just didn't know what to do, right? She's stuck in the middle. She doesn't wanna rock the boat.

She felt like she didn't wanna, I mean, this is her dad's best friend. And as a kid, you're like, that's important, you know, like you don't realize. And so she didn't know what to do. She knew Jim was a huge support during the separation. She didn't want to endanger anybody. So she said nothing. News broke that Jim might have become infatuated with Hannah and gone to extreme lengths to isolate her from her family. So this stuff started to come out when the teenage friends were like, yeah, he was actually pretty creepy. One of Jim's former classmates, now to clarify, Jim,

the the this guy, the father figure guy, quote unquote, when he was in school, he had a classmate named Danielle Freeman. And I tell you that because Danielle Freeman, now an adult, spoke out after she heard about this whole situation. I know she had something to say. She had something to say. She said she was absolutely terrified for Hannah

because when she was in high school, classmate with Jim, Jim's father, Jim Senior senior had actually dated her mother for a short time. Oh, shit. So she was basically this guy, Jim's stepbrother, slash also his dad's or sorry, stepsister, also his dad's like sort of pseudo stepdaughter. When they broke up, when her mom and Jim Senior broke up, Jim Senior told 16-year-old Danielle that he was in love with her and asked her to run away with him.

So this is like a generational pattern thing we have going on here. Oh, shit, okay. Yeah, because I thought it was gonna be about the high school or, but no, it's about his father. So this is clearly pattern. Wow.

She rejected him, And then one morning while her mother was out of town and Danielle was asleep at home with her boyfriend, Jim senior, her former stepdad climbed through her bedroom window with a shotgun and handcuffs. He placed an apple over the barrel as a makeshift silencer and held Danielle and her boyfriend, teenagers, at gunpoint for an hour. This is Jim's dad, like decades earlier. I'm fully silenced. Is this not the wildest shit?

Like this is, this is... So that also, I mean, obviously poor Danielle, that boyfriend who was just like, he was like, I hope we don't get caught. I know, they're 16 and he's like, her mom's out of town. So obviously the boyfriend's staying over. Like you can totally see what's happening. And then a fucking guy with a shotgun climbs

through the window. Oh my God. Oh my God. You're right. Like of all innocent, not innocent, but like of all teenage kind of like sneaking around like to have that happen. I wonder if like the boyfriend being there like saved her life because at least there was two people innocent, not innocent, but of all teenage kind of like sneaking around like to have that happen.

I wonder if like the boyfriend being there like saved her life because at least there was two people versus like I mean only brought handcuffs for one person right? That's a very good point. That's a very good point. It probably was for the best that he was there. So Danielle begged him to spare their lives but he only said their deaths would be painless. That's what he kept telling them. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Danielle appealed to Jim senior for mercy. Of course she did the kind of survival thing saying like, if you really love me,

you know, you won't hurt me. And trying to play into that, that affection that he had expressed for her. She kept asking repeatedly to use the bathroom and he finally let her go. Instead, she ran out the door to her neighbors for help, but also was totally terrified by this because Jim senior said, if you try to run instead of go to the bathroom, I will shoot your boyfriend and your brother who's also in the house. Oh my God. But instead of shooting them, she made the right call because when he realized

she had run for help, he ran too without harming anyone. He was later arrested, but he made bail and returned home pending trial. Now, Danielle goes back to school and her classmate, Jim Jr. approaches her one day. Oh my God, okay. And he tells her his father's out of jail

and that his father wants to meet Danielle after school. No. No. Sorry, what? I mean, he obviously, if he's being raised by that guy, he's got his own stuff to figure out, but like, I... Did he think she'd say yes? Well, I almost wonder if she's if he's like warning her. Oh I don't know though. It's not clear

but I do wonder the context because it says Jim jr. Approached Danielle at school and told her his father's out of jail and planned to meet her after school and She was like, okay got it. I'm going into hiding. I see. So I don't know what his intention was, especially with the what we know now about him. I don't know. Sounds like he was he didn't see anything wrong with something like that. Totally. Or maybe maybe he did. And then later he reverted to that. Who knows? But either way, she I'm glad he told her I guess, because she decided to go into hiding. She transferred school several days later. I mean, it's very traumatizing. Jim Senior was, I mean, we were just discussing

what his own problems might be, Jim Juniors. Jim Senior was emotionally, physically abusive to his children, and though Jim's family believed he had, that Jim, little Jim, had proudly broken this cycle of violence, right? Like everyone thought, wow, like he's really- He got out. Yeah, despite his upbringing,

he's really like become this great family man. Danielle now looking back, believed Hannah, who's missing was in as much danger as Danielle had once been and was like, I know at the hands of Jim's father. So it's like she's experienced this. Sorry, I just had this weird flash of your story of like the killing the guard and then killing the guard in the kitchen

and then like repeating years later. It's just so weird. Like a synchronicity kind of thing. Yeah, like almost like a repeat crime generation. It's kind of strange. But so yeah, that's basically, and I think you're probably right that the intention probably was to take just.

Danielle. Just Danielle and the boyfriend just happened to be there because he must have known that the mom was out of town. He probably didn't account for the boyfriend staying the night. Yeah. Yeah. Oh God. You are right that it is weird that it's like two generations both took a girl and a guy

he didn't really want to actually have to deal with and then just kind of like had to think about do I want to get rid of this guy? Like killing the extra collateral damage, the collateral people. Yeah. Now, this is when things get a little, well, a lot icky also. So what first of all, I'd like to point out that Danielle, even though she said, you she said Hannah's in danger, she said, I think this girl's a strong girl, and if she just keeps her wits and goes with the program, she can make it out.

So she wanted to at least put the hope out there that Hannah could get through this. Danielle escaped, and so she's hoping Hannah can as well. So the media is, of course, devouring the story, and with that comes rumors. And of course, when they find letters from Hannah to Jim, innocent letters about advice and like family disagreements and having an argument with her mom,

they didn't make the contents of the letters public, but people heard that the two had exchanged a lot of letters and started saying, oh, she's in on it and she's in a relationship with him. Impossible, folks, she's a child, impossible. On the day Jim picked up Hannah from cheer camp, phone records showed that Jim and Hannah spoke over the phone 13 times.

And so people were like, well, clearly, they were plotting this out. This had to be some sort of plan. And so people started speculating that Hannah was in a relationship, quote unquote, with Jim, that she knew the plot ahead of time, that she willingly participated in killing her family. Detectives, of course, were like,

no, that is not where we're taking this case at all, but you know, it's the internet. It's 2013, people are gonna talk. All evidence to investigators indicated that Hannah was being held against her will and was in imminent peril. And they said, by the way, everybody, we wanna be clear that she is a victim

in every sense of the word. And I'd like to clarify that that is still the case. So three days after Hannah's abduction, two couples were enjoying a summer camping tradition. Here's another see something, say something. Again again not to like put too much onus of blame on anyone else But just to say here's another good example of what can what we can brush aside sure just feel like oh It's not my problem. You know, whatever Two couples were enjoying a summer camping tradition where they would go fishing in the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness.

OK, nothing could go wrong. The wilderness. Didn't we talk about this? Yes. OK, I thought so, but then I was like, why is so much going on at this poorly named river? Probably it's like chicken or the egg. Is it called that because it's yeah. It's like, is it because there's a full moon or are you doing it

because there's a full moon? Because it's right right right. So you're doing it at this river that we're never gonna forget or are you doing it at a river that we'll never forget? Wow no you're totally right I had thought that but I was like maybe the one we talked about was like the never-ending river and I'm like no you're right that is it the river of no return that was definitely it. Yes 100%. Yeah so that's that's kind of we're back in that in that neck of the woods, so to speak, actually quite literally. And so they went fit. This is what they would do. These two couples,

they would go on this double day camping trip every year, and they would go to this part of the woods and go fishing. It's this wilderness area. And this part, especially where this part especially where they were navigating and where they would go camping apparently required considerable outdoor skills. So you needed to really prepare. It's not just like you drive up and you set up a tent.

Like they had horses that had to take them to this point to like navigate the terrain. So the couples are Mark John, his wife Krista and their friends Mike and Mary Young. And they did have those skills and experience and they had horses that could handle it. So on Tuesday morning, they set off from their campsite on horseback to go fishing at Moorhead Lake.

And the route they took was a little bit treacherous. There were these like really steep slopes, these deep gorges and along the way they spotted two hikers. But these hikers seemed completely out of place. Okay. There's a man and a much younger woman, and they are not dressed for a hiking trip. They just have thin running shoes, and they just have a day pack and no water, and the girl's just wearing sweatpants. Yeah, something's going on there. And they're looking at them going, what in the world are these two doing here? Like, where where's the middle of nowhere?

You know, and where's all your shit? You don't just stumble over here. No, certainly not. And they describe the girl as having a pure look of fear on her face. So the couples rode another hour to the lake. But as they're riding their horses they're thinking something wasn't right, like we just have a bad feeling about this. On the way back to camp they passed the pair again, but this time they were hauling heavy

backpacks and the man was carrying an old gray cat. Okay. One of the men on horseback was completely floored and said, why on earth would you bring a cat to the wilderness? And he said, a cat, this is the most dad thing I've ever heard. A cat out here is nothing but good bait for wolves and mountain lions. What are you doing bringing a cat out here? See, that's something an uncle would say. That's something weird. Yeah.

Yeah. Very true and very dad-like. And the girl he noticed was just sitting on the lake shore with her feet in the water, like completely detached. One of the riders made a joke like, well, you're not gonna catch any fish with your feet in the water like that. And she just completely didn't respond,

like was completely disengaged. So as they rode away, they heard her turn and say, looks like we're all in trouble now. Oh, so Krista, one of the women on this trip, wanted to go back and ask the girl if she's in trouble and if she needs help. Correct answer. Correct answer.

But her husband insisted it was none of their business. Incorrect answer. Fucking divorce, please. He thought maybe this was a father daughter pair who wasn't getting along. He thought also maybe the girl was older than they thought and they were just a couple in an argument. I can't.

Why wouldn't you go ask them? Trust your fucking gut, man. Yeah. Still, the encounter hung over their heads for the rest of the camp out and they just couldn't shake this feeling like something was wrong. Regardless of this relationship between them,

whether they were a married couple or father-daughter or whatever, it was so out of place and they were like, they could get hurt. Like they're not prepared for this either way and something was wrong. So fast forward to Thursday. It's been five days since Hannah's abduction. Five days. The Youngs and the Johns pack up camp. They go home and that evening Krista turns on the TV and starts screaming for Mark. Because there on the TV is an Amber alert, and there on the TV is Hannah, the same girl they had seen in the wilderness just a few days earlier. Oh my god. Now you better believe, I hope that fucking guy regretted that for the rest of his life.

Yeah, I hope that fucking guy regretted that for the rest of his life. Yeah, I hope. Because I get the like, fuck politeness, right? Like I know how hard it can be to say, do something. It's just we have to keep reminding ourselves how important that is. Yeah, I have recently had to do a fuck politeness thing and then got yelled at for not being polite and I was like, well, I don't care. Oh my gosh, what happened? Or do you know what say it? Oh, there was, it was in Portland or Seattle

when we had our show. And there was a girl that looked really fucked up. And a guy was like, it looked like carrying her or like dragging her across. Like I was parked at a light and I saw them crossing the street. And at first I was like, maybe she's just really drunk and like her friends trying to drag her to like, or trying to like help her across the street.

But it also looked like he was like carrying her and she was too fucked up to like know what was even going on. And so I was like, what the hell? So the light turned green. So luckily they were walking in the direction I was starting to drive. So I started to just kind of just slowly follow them. But then eventually I saw her running. Oh my god.

And so I rolled down the window and I went, do you know him? Like get in the car. And then the guy went, she knows me. And I went, I want to hear it from her. I wasn't asking you motherfucker. Yeah. And I was like, do you know him? And then she went, yeah, that's my husband.

And I went, okay. And then she was like, I was just, I was just showing him how my friend and I was like, do you know him? And then she went, yeah, that's my husband. And I went, OK. And then she was like, I was just I was just showing him how my friend and I run. Like, but she like she meant it and seemed fine. Oh, my God. But then he was like, why would you say that? Why would you? I was like, I didn't. I looked really shady. Like, it looked like, yeah, no, you did the right thing.

And that's why it's called Fuck Politeness, because people are going to be weird about it. That's he was really weird about it, which, like, I get like, you don't want to be seen that way. And by the way, if it's nothing, yeah, because people are going to be weird about it That's the point. He was really weird about it, which like I get like you don't want to be seen that way And by the way, if it's nothing, yeah, they're probably gonna be like dude, fuck you. That's my That's my boyfriend. But also if you're her husband how you should be thinking Thank god someone is like looking out for my wife. There's a creepy guy around I guess but like if you're in the moment you're like somebody comes up and like you're like, whoa what no That's not what's happening. Like but that is risk you take of like, fuck politeness, right?

Not everyone's gonna be like, wow, that was so thoughtful of you, you know? And so that's why it's so scary. For all they know, they could go back there and say, hey, are you like, do you know each other? Are you related? And they could be like, what the actual fuck? We're siblings and we're mourning our dad's death.

Who knows? It could be like any number of things, but that's that horrible risk. What the actual fuck? Like we're siblings and we're mourning our dad's death. Like, who knows, you know? It could be like any number of things, but like that's that horrible risk, but good for you. And that's hard, that's hard to do, man. Oh, thank you. Okay, so anyway, they're at home, they see the TV, they go, holy shit. We cannot believe it.

That's the girl we saw. So Krista called the other couple, Mike and Mary, who turned on the news and thought they were like, yeah, that's definitely her. So they read up on Hannah's umbrella and by the time they kind of got to the bottom of it, they all agreed this was undeniably the girl they had seen. So they called the state police,

an enormous team of investigators and hostage rescue specialists set up operations in Cascade, Idaho. And this is 77 miles north of Boise. It's about a thousand people. It's a pretty small town. Search teams took to the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness on foot and horseback.

It's a humongous, enormous area. And so it's a really hard, slow, and grueling process to search. But on a road near one of the trailheads, Jim's Nissan, that blue Nissan was discovered, hidden under a pile of brush and tree branches. So he tried to cover that up. Small planes and helicopters were deployed on aerial searches, and one team noticed a blue tent near Moorhead Lake. When they looked a little closer, they saw a girl and a man and when they looked even a little bit closer, they saw

that in the man's arms was a gray cat. That little Oliver is getting everyone in trouble. That Oliver is getting attention and getting the police involved and I love that. You could say it was Oliver and company. And I will. You could. I could and I will. Okay. They knew this must be Oliver and Jim and Hannah and they were like, thank God she's alive. So a helicopter carrying a hostage rescue team had to land miles away so that they would be like subtle enough to not tip him off, right? Yeah. And it was also a hike. Yep. And it was also... And hike. Yep, and it was also the only suitable terrain to land a fucking helicopter.

This guy didn't go camping in a big airfield, right? So they have to go miles away and then hike to the location. And then they have... I can't imagine hiking that and almost doing a marathon because you want to go as fast as you can to get there as soon as possible. You want to get it as fast as you can and get there as soon as possible. You wanna get it as fast as you can and you wanna be like as stealth as possible, right? So you're like, so they get there,

it takes over two hours to get there and then they just wait. They watch Jim and Hannah in silence for an opportunity to move in because they don't want him grabbing her and holding her hostage. They don't wanna put her in danger at all. According to the FBI, they, so they finally were able

to swoop in, and when the team did swoop in to retrieve Hannah, Jim shot his gun once and then lowered it to shoot again. And the team opened fire, he was shot multiple times, was immediately killed. Oh, wow. Hannah and Oliver both survived. I'm glad you I'm glad you said that.

Had to specify that both were transported in helicopter. Imagine the poor cat is like, this is the most traumatic day of my life. Like this cat doesn't even know. I mean, Hannah, obviously, of course, but they're both looking at each other. They're like, did we both just experience this shit? Yeah. So Hannah, thankfully, was transported to a hospital and this is just the heartbreaking part where she has to learn that her mother, her brother, and her dog are all dead. Oh, she didn't know?

She didn't know. Because apparently- What did he tell her? He told her, I'll get to it because I'll tell you like in detail. Sure, sure. And I don't know where in my notes it is, but he does tell her a specific story that- Oh my God. That basically he told her that they were safe.

Yeah. She was fortunately reunited with her father and her grandmother, and she was really close with her grandmother. But of course, so overwhelmed by her ordeal, she turned to the internet to process her grief and trauma. And before this whole thing, she had been an active user of the internet.

And so that's, she just went back to being online. She posted on a public forum and did sort of an ask me anything about what she'd been through. And Hannah wrote that she was not sorry Jim was killed and she believed he deserved his fate. But being online, of course, drew public scrutiny and criticism from people who were like, having a Q&A is inappropriate. And it's like-

Oh, you know what's inappropriate? Being fucking abducted after everyone I know is dead. Literally a man murdering my dog and my family and then saying what I'm doing is inappropriate. It makes me so enraged, I can't even think straight. But Hannah defended herself in interviews. And she said that she only decided to do the Q&A after she got online and saw people

writing rumors about her and it's like let her set the record straight and say her side. You're sure like let me just tell you what happened so I don't have to see these fucking rumors about my trauma. Exactly, so she wrote on one Facebook page I can say and do what I want and I feel bad that it bothers you so much like she's like- You go girl. Yeah, yeah. Hannah always had connected to her friends and family through social media anyway. So this was like a place where she could process

and describe what she experienced, you know, in a public forum and feel empowered that like she can talk about her trauma from her perspective. She also took opportunities to contest rumors about her relationship with Jim. She explained the letters she wrote to him were just like kid letters letters she wrote to him were just like kid

letters that she wrote to an uncle talking about like how frustrated she was that her mom didn't let her stay past bedtime or what have you. Like there was nothing inappropriate in the letters. Maybe to him it was a love letter but like it was... Right, no, yeah, but there was nothing in it that like indicated, you know, to police there was anything else going on between at at least on her part. And these, remember the alleged 13 phone calls? Well, it turns out that they were actually texts and Jim didn't have the address for where he was supposed to pick her up. And there was construction in front of the school. So they were just texting. It's 2013. They were texting like, oh, drive to

the side of the building or, oh, it's at this building or this gymnasium. Like that's why they texted 13 times. They weren't having like lovers' trysts over the phone. And like the fact that people said that and that she was complicit in killing her own mother and brother, it's just like- That's so sad. Get a fucking, like take a step back.

Take 10 steps back, okay? So in October, two months after her abduction and rescue, Hannah went on the Today Show to describe her experience. She said that when Jim picked her up from cheer camp, nothing seemed out of the ordinary at first. It wasn't until they got to his house and she didn't see her mom's car in the driveway that she began to feel a little nervous. Inside, Jim told her that Tina was in the garage and that Ethan was upstairs She heard her brother yelling for her and she shouted her his name but there was nothing she could do because Jim suddenly handcuffed her and Told her he was going to take her to Idaho where she would hike with him to help him set up his new home in

the wilderness together Okay, it's like his father asked Danielle to run away with him and well he saw that didn't work so he had to come up with another story. But it's the same. Yeah, I mean, right. But now he's doing the same thing. Run away with me, but I'm forcing it right. History repeats itself. History repeats and even the handcuffs being the same tool. Like it's just so strange to me. He said that he would live there from then on and that once she helped him set up their home together that like she could just go home to her family. And she said something about Jim had like changed. He seemed like on edge, overly excited, almost like manic in a way. I think he forced Hannah to play Russian roulette until she cried. Oh, so this isn't even like a...

It start- it was for- it was one delusion originally of like, Oh, we could be together, but now it's like I could hurt- Now it's- It sounded up until now like, yeah, he was like, Something's fucked up that he likes her, but like he wasn't gonna hurt her because he liked her so much and now it's like, Oh, you'll also hurt her. I don't know. I feel like anytime you tell a 13-year-old girl you want to be her boyfriend or whatever, like, it's not going to end well.

I was thinking, I mean, he was obviously capable of violence before that because very thinking it to everyone else. But I thought surely he wants to just abduct her and hold her hostage. I mean, he did. Yeah. I think he did. I think he did. Well, I think he just wanted to do like Russian roulette abduct her and hold her hostage. It didn't occur to me the violent part.

Well, I think he just wanted to do like Russian roulette to be like, I can control you. You know, it's like a control thing. Then he made her take sedative medication. She doesn't know what it was, but they think it was likely an ambient. And she awoke hours later with no idea where she was. And of course, asking about her family.

And Jim told Hannah that her mom and brother were tied up in his garage. But don't worry, there's a sign on the garage to alert firefighters of their location so they could be rescued. Oh my God. When she finished helping Jim move into the wilderness, she believed she would go home and reunite with them

because that's what he kept telling her. So for days, I don't know that she actually believed that, but that is what he kept telling her. I'm sure she wanted to believe that. For days on the trail through the mountains, Hannah endured thunderstorms, boiling daytime heat, frigid nighttime cold, extremely painful hiking because she had really bad knee issues already to begin with. Jim carried a gun and slept with it at his side. Hannah considered taking it while he slept, but she didn't know how to use it and was like afraid that it would get worse

if he caught her, you know. So when she saw those horseback riders, Jim told Hannah he would kill all four of those horseback riders if she tried to signal for help. So she stayed quiet. She was like, I don't want their blood on my hands. Eventually, Jim realized that he had gotten them hopelessly lost in the wilderness

and with no resources for long-term survival, Jim became desperate for rescue. And as the helicopters and planes were flying overhead, he tried to actually build a fire to signal for help. When he failed to start a fire, Hannah told him that once she read that three gunshots in the air signified an SOS. Hannah did not even realize at that time

her rescue team was literally waiting nearby, waiting to advance on the scene. Wow. Okay. So Hannah said that Jim followed her SOS tip and fired twice into the air and before he could fire his final shot The FBI shot him. Gotcha. Okay She didn't know he died that he had died until she arrived at the hospital In the weeks following Hannah's dramatic rescue Jim's family and the Andersons were shocked to learn that Jim had named Hannah's grandmother

The beneficiary to his life insurance policy, which was over $100,000. Jim's sister Laura spoke to the media about her doubts surrounding the case. She told interviewers she always thought Hannah was trouble. Fucking gag me with this boon. Oh, what a bitch. Fucking lunatic. Are you serious? So it just runs in the family? Yeah! Or nature plus nurture, who knows, you know?

Clearly, they didn't grow up in a healthy place either, so... No. Hannah was trouble, is what she said, and that she told Jim to avoid Hannah for his own safety, again. I literally... What does that mean? I can't even begin to know. She said she believed there were unanswered questions about the case that could exonerate

her brother and that she believed Jim was trying to protect Hannah from some trouble Hannah had gotten herself into. Okay. In my yeah okay by killing her brother and mom. Yeah, I got nothing on that. Just in my heart of hearts, says the sister, I think that Hannah, I mean, there's one thing to be like, to hope your sibling is not, but this is next level.

In my heart of hearts, I think that Hannah perhaps got herself into a situation that she couldn't get herself out of, and I do believe that my brother gave his life to protect her. I just hope that Carmichael's here. I beg your pardon, my friend. Ah, that's evil.

She even said, by the way, that it's evil, that there were rumors that Jim might be Hannah and Ethan's father, which would explain why he cared so much about them and why he left them so much money. She was probably also salty about the whole money, life insurance going to the grandma. Perhaps it would also prove he was trying to help Hannah

out of paternal obligation. Well, guess what? There was, like I said, never any evidence that Tina and Jim had a relationship. It was completely platonic. Oh, and by the way, Tina was already six months pregnant with Hannah when she and Brett met Jim. Remember how I said he knew her since the day she was born?

That was because they met Jim when they were pregnant with Hannah. So like, that's not even possible. And Brett's DNA was used to identify Ethan's body after the fire. So that means he was the paternal match. So at some point, you just got to you just got to shrug it off and be like, they're delusional. Yeah, that is not a mentally healthy person. Right. Like you like, there's no way to convince them at this point if they're, if they're this convinced. Jim's family eventually, because they just can't stop themselves filed a wrongful

death lawsuit seeking $20 million in damages. Uh, they believe that, and I will give them, I mean, maybe there is something to this part that they believe the hostage team had opportunity to apprehend Jim without killing him And that they acted in haste because they had already decided he was guilty of a crime something that should have been determined in a trial But also this man was clearly a severe danger was a murderer on the loose Was endangering a child and was shooting a gun into the air while rescue teams tried to rescue her. So I would, as someone who has, hey, guess what? A serious problem with police shooting people,

it's not my favorite. I don't know that this has legs, honestly. Not $20 million worth of legs, certainly, in my opinion. In my humble opinion, anyway. So this lawsuit was dismissed, but the dismissal was then later reversed and they're, searchers said they can't find any information more recent than 2019.

I also couldn't find any, so this could still be active. Who knows? You know, the court moves slowly. Regardless of the circumstances of Jim's death, all evidence supports that Hannah was indeed an innocent survivor of Jim's unimaginable crime spree. And in the years since her abduction and rescue, Hannah has been very vocal about her gratitude

and support for the Amber Alert system, which played the key role in her discovery and rescue. And the wildest part, that being the first one sent to cell phones in California is pretty wild. And a success. And as a success, yeah, exactly. In 2023, she responded by email to CBS News after they inquired about her life.

She said the following, and this is what I'll end on. I am currently two months away from getting my degree and taking my board exam to become an MRI technologist as well as working full-time for a hospital at home while I spend time with my son. I have worked hard to be where I am today, and although what happened was traumatic and devastating, I have a family of my own now,

and an amazing life ahead of me with my guardian angels watching above. Ethan's birthday was Sunday, he would have been 19 years old, and I try to imagine what he'd look like and what he'd be doing in life if he was still here today. I miss them every day. And one day my son will know what an amazing grandma and uncle he has up in heaven.

And it's like just the fact that that was the uncle of her child now. She lost him at such a young age. That's the story of Hannah Anderson. And I'm sorry, I know that was a long one. That's kind of why I was talking so fast. But it just was a lot to cover, especially with the Danielle bit in the middle. I couldn't cut that out, you know, it's like that.

That pattern is just so scary to see like how identical that. Yeah, that's a tough one. Oh my gosh, well, good job telling that pristine. Thank you, and thanks, Saoirse, for the help with the notes, and thank you, everybody, for sticking through another long one here. We're about to go do a Yappy Hour.

I don't know if we have anything planned, do we? I got nothing. I just can't stop thinking about the bird poop I have to clean off. No. Maybe we'll watch Em do a live like ASMR cleaning of their porch light. It'll just be me. You don't need the ASMR. It's me going, Yeah, it'll be, it'll be just like Em's disgust, uh, reverberating through our ears. Maybe I'll put on my like little AI thing, not AI thing, what's it called?

VR. I'll just go. Oh, we can all just watch it. That's everyone's favorite thing is watch someone else play a video game. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, well, thanks everybody.

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