anything goes with emma chamberlain - a talk with charli xcx [video]

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

[video available on spotify] today, i’m feeling a little more energized than usual because it's not often that i'm in the presence of a pop star - charli xcx aka charlotte atchison. are you kidding me? she runs her own label, directs music videos, co-manages developing artists, and has collaborated with so many incredible, talented people: blondie, selena gomez, gwen stefani, camila cabello, shawn mendes, benny blanco, david guetta… the list goes on. charli’s latest album, her sixth, is called “brat” and comes out tomorrow. if making music wasn't enough, she'll soon be making her acting debut in the horror film, “faces of death.” i would consider charli a friend, however, i've never talked to her about her work before. so i'm excited to learn more about her creative brain. without further ado, let me bring in the iconic charli xcx. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I am feeling a little bit more energized than usual because it's not often that I'm in the presence of a pop star. Okay, so I'm feeling very excited. And I feel like I'm talking to not just any pop star, a pop star who is so fiercely unique and individual that they're almost in a category of their own. CharlieXEX, are you kidding me? You obviously know CharlieXEX, but she has done so much in her career, it's unbelievable.

So let me fill in some of the gaps for you, okay? CharlieXEX, whose birth name is Charlotte Atkins, So let me fill in some of the gaps for you. Okay, Charlie XCX Whose birth name is Charlotte Acheson is a singer songwriter documentary maker radio host podcaster and co-owner and founder of the management company project gold I Feel like she's involved in the music world more than People know about because she writes for other artists while releasing her own music.

She runs her own label. She directs music videos, co-manages developing artists, and she's collaborated with so many incredible talented people as well, such as Blondie, Selena Gomez, Gwen Stefani, Camila Cabello, Shawn Mendes, Benny Blanco, David Guetta. The list goes on. Charlie is truly a special creative in the sense that she has created a world around herself that is so fun and indulgent to be a part of.

So without further ado, let me bring in the iconic Charlie XCX. This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. How epic is that? And it's free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda.

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That's when it's got to be Kraft Dinner. When you got to do you, it's got to be KD. Shop now. This episode is brought to you by Fizz. Looking for a new mobile provider? Fizz does things differently. They offer complete transparency, no contracts, no hidden fees, no false promises. Fizz is 100% online. You're free to change

your plan every month as much as you'd like. Don't like it? You're free to leave whenever you want. No hard feelings. But if you do like Fizz, the more you stay, the more you get rewarded with dollars off and free data. You can even roll over unused data each month. Try the other side. Switch to Fizz. Check out Fizz.ca conditions apply. What's your drink when you go out? I'll do an espresso martini sometimes. Oh, so you like are a coffee.

I know I love coffee. Stop. We're soulmates. I know. Like I'm not just like saying this because it's you and you have a coffee brand but like sometimes maybe you get this too like at night I'll be like thinking about like oh in the morning I get to have my coffee oh I get so excited and I have to limit myself to one nowadays because I'm the older I get the more anxious I get yeah totally are you having that normally I'll have two a day, but sometimes it'll be three.

But then I am very like, you know? Freaking out. Freaking out, really like texting. And like I'm just being a bit crazy. So now I try and, I was on two, now I'm trying to have one. This is my second though. I know, I'm doing the same.

I've had two today too. This is also my second. What are you having? We're gonna be freaking out. This is an Americana as well. I'm doing the same. I've had two today too. This is also my second. What are you having? We're going to be freaking out. This is an Americano as well. Is that an Americano or cold brew? It's... I don't want to sound like a diva. I think it's an Americano.

I think it's an iced Americano. Yeah. But I did say cold brew, but it tastes like espresso. They lied to you. Yeah. But I'm having... I love it. It's amazing. I'm enjoying it. I just can tell.

I could also be wrong. Well, no, but it tastes so different. Cold brew can also be really sour. Like, I... It depends on where you go, but sometimes when you go to like a really fancy place, it's like, why is this sour? Are we allowed to talk about other coffee brands? Of course. No, we can talk about anything.

Like, obviously, your favorite coffee brand is your coffee. Yes. Chamberlain Coffee. Oh my god, this is my… I can't help it. I'm promoting it. I love it. You're my dream.

I mean, this is water, but… No, because, no, can I tell you? Yes. Again, I'm not saying this because I'm here. I just think it's really smart. Thank you. Because, like, there aren't really many people who have coffee brands. Well, I feel like it's...

But it's such a, like, duh. Well, the thing is... Everyone's drinking coffee. Yes, and also, I feel like not a lot of people are like a nerd about it. No, you are. Which is why I had to do it, because I was like, I am a nerd about it, but I'm also still... I'm not like perfect at it. Like, you know, you can bro, like,

it's like I'm still a home barista at the end of the day. Like I'm not this fancy, I'm not weighing out the beans and shit. Are you somebody who weighs out the beans? Okay, so my fiance is so, have you met? I don't think you've met him. No. He is really into, like he's into coffee.

He got me like the scales for Christmas. That is unbelievable. He's like really into it. Yeah. He's like really into it. Yeah. And he like makes great coffee and sometimes I'll be like, can you just like tell me the exact ratios and he'll be like, it's not really about that.

It's just about that feeling, which is annoying. I'm like shut up. Well that's yeah. There's a number that you're turning the grinder to and an amount that you're doing on the scale. So can you just give me that information please? And then, so he did and you know, and now I have a kettle with a thin spout. Like I'm not that good at it, he's very good at it and I just try my best. But I know that you're supposed to have scales. Not trying to like pull you out.

But I'm surprised, it shocks me that you have a coffee brown and you don't have scales. No, I have a scale. Do I use it? No. Never. Because I wake up in the morning, I'm the type that like, my morning routine is like,

get up and I'm out of bed immediately. Like there's not a thought and I'm downstairs. But at that hour, like you know when you first wake up, you're not nearly sharp enough. You're not doing math and doing- For fuck's sake, a scale? I'm like hell no. And so it's like I am like scrappy with it, but I feel like I have it down so good that it's like I don't need it.

However- Well, this is what my boyfriend's saying. It's feeling. It's feeling. So maybe I'm like beyond needing the scale. However, I feel like I need it. What are you like... So your boyfriend's thing is the coffee. Like that's his like little... That's the hobby. Yeah. Do you have one? Like what's your thing? No. Me either.

I think it's watching movies. Really? I watch movies a lot. Yeah. Like right now, because I'm kind of like working a lot, I'm not watching a film a night, but like there's been phases where I will watch a film a night and on the weekends I'll watch like three films on Saturday and maybe two on Sunday. Whoa.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense because I feel like when you're in one creative space, it just kind of makes you interested in every creative space in a way. Like, I feel like it's film, it's fashion. Like I think- You must, I mean, you work in fashion.

Yeah. You work in coffee, you work in fashion. Yeah. It's like, I feel like fashion is your... It's kind of a hobby. Fashion, I love fashion. It's your passion and a hobby and it's work kind of. I feel the same about music. I mean, it's like, I wouldn't make music unless I like...

You know, I love doing it. Yes. Right? Yes. I just feel like I'm... Sorry, I just looked straight into the camera. I'm not wearing a bra and I'm like straight into the camera. Oh, you can do it. I'm not wearing a bra and I'm like so... Oh, me either.

Are you kidding me? I'm like, do I need to... You look amazing. But now it's crazy. Also, you're wearing all black so you can do whatever you want. That's why I love wearing all black. No, you look shaken hot and gorgeous. I'm just wondering if my tits look saggy when I'm like set like this.

No, actually, they're really good. Okay, great. And now I'm like being like crazy with how... No, you guys all good. Okay, great. And now they're like being like crazy with how, I'm like. No, you guys all need to like, if you're not watching the video version of this, watch the video, they look amazing. Now I'm holding them? Yeah, well, of course.

Okay, anyways, whatever. Yeah, but to hold them is to be like, I feel like there's something about being in fashion, like you're in fashion as well, and there's something about being in fashion that makes you like weirdly, you're used to, you're used to like You're used to like... I can't explain it.

There's like a comfortability that you get with like being nude or like not wearing a bra and like having your boob out and shit. Like, do you know what I mean? And it just makes you comfortable. Well, I think it's fittings as well, isn't it? Oh, everyone's all over you. Everyone's all over you. And I think we both have gay male stylists.

Yes, yes. That we collaborate with. Yes. And so then you're not really like... Well, you're not... Nothing is sacred anymore. You're talking about your boobs. Yeah. You're holding them there, like pushing them in a top.

Yeah. They're taping them up. This shit's happening. Yeah. But it's kind of nice because, I don't know, it feels like... It feels communal. Yeah. It's just beautiful about it.

Yeah, and it really becomes about like, the clothes and creating a great moment. Yes, and being a canvas in a way. But with movies, well, you're acting now. Yeah. I need to know about this. Well, I've been in one film that has not yet come out. Yes, yes.

The film is a film called Faces of Death and I was a fan of the original movie and this movie was kind of like a 70s gore film that kind of, I don't want to speak out of turn here, but I'm pretty certain in ways that like kind of began to kind of coin the genre of gore. It's basically like this film of found footage of murders. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of narrated over the top by this fictional doctor. Yeah. And this film is like in the 70s, you would go to whatever Blockbuster was then and rent

this movie and it was like supposedly cursed. Like it was like a cursed film. You know, and it was like you'd put it in and be like, anyway, I wasn't alive then when that was happening, but this is what I've been told. I was just a fan of the film from later. So I saw that this film was being remade by a director called Daniel Goldharbour who made Cam and How to Blow Up a Pipeline. And I was like, damn, like how are you remaking this? So we met and we spoke and then he was like, you should be in it. And so I went to, it's a small role. And, you know, I play a coworker of, um, Barbie Ferreira, who's the lead in the film. Um, but it was just, I really got the bug from that.

Did you see yourself doing it beforehand or were you like, okay with being a fan? What of that particular film? No, like in general, just being like a movie fanatic. You know, it's like I... And I'm sure you've had this with your career. I feel like there are always people who are trying to like push and pull you into different ways. Like I'm sure there's somebody who said to you like,

hey Emma, you should act. Hey Emma, have you ever thought of making an album? Like, you know, there's always people who are trying to be like expanding the brand or whatever. And I had definitely had like a fair few people say like, hey Charlie, you should consider acting for a long time. And I had always sort of been like, you know what, I just don't feel that that is a skill that you can just like suddenly jump into.

Like people train and train and train and you have to learn your craft and you have to understand, you know, like in depth so much about the way films are written, screenwriting, like script analysis, like also the technique of acting and you know, of course there's feeling in it too, but like I just at that point in time was like that feels crazy you know, yes, so I kind of like wanted to like learn and research and really only insert myself into That world or try and insert myself in that world when I felt like at least like a tiny bit prepared and not just like showing up being like And also well, there's more pressure on you to do well because you're

a public figure in another area. And same for me. It's like people are not going to willingly accept you into another sort of. Sure. You got to have respect. You got to have respect for people who have made that their life. Yes. I'm very aware of that. And that's also why I'm really interested in like, you know, working with filmmakers who I love and that doesn't necessarily have to be like a massive role. I'm happy to like show up and do a scene and be like learning and things like that. And that's very much what this was. I really, this is so funny, I didn't think that we'd be talking about this at all, but I love it. I'm well, I think it's fun because I feel like little side projects like that actually end up making you...

Like they can inspire you creatively elsewhere. Absolutely. I don't know when you're only doing one thing. Yeah. It can be so... It can just like, it can fatigue you. You can get so burnt out. Like you've been doing this since you were 16. Yeah.

And I get that because I also started at 16. And it's such a marathon. And it's nice to sort of go off and do something else. You know, like doing coffee is like a breath of fresh air from the other thing. Because it's like, you know, doing all these, I think the more things that you can try and even be new at, it can actually like invigorate and excite you in a way. Yeah. I mean, I feel, yeah, like you said, I've been doing this since I was 16 and so that

is now 15 years and I would like to flex my creative muscles in other areas or at least like begin to learn about other areas in a very kind of like studious way and yeah be really inspired and like I don't envision myself doing making music forever Maybe I will in some capacity, but I just feel like there are other creative areas that I really want to explore and I feel like you must feel the same way. I'm curious though about like your process of sort of learning. I read somewhere that when you were like in the beginning of music when you were you know starting to make music you were like traditional like coaching or teaching I don't fuck with it yeah and I have felt that way about everything that

I've tried thus far whether it's like publicly or even privately like doing like you know things like throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks and in other areas of entertainment I guess when it you know, things like throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks in other areas of entertainment, I guess. When it comes to learning things, like how do you prefer to teach yourself? It's so interesting because with music it's like... I never studied music at school. I never took like a class or whatever. I learned piano, but I couldn't read music, so I would memorize the pieces. Like my piano teacher would literally spend a year teaching me a piece and I would be like, and then like scrape through the

exam and do it all again. But you know, if you put a sheet of music in front of me now, I'd be like, no, I can't do it. You know? But I guess it's like trial and error. I mean, being in the industry from such a young age taught me so much. You know, I'd go to songwriting sessions and I would like learn from people. I think that is how I learn best. It's like, I see what other people are doing. I see this set of rules that they are perhaps navigating within. I take some of them, I disregard others and then I kind of build my own set of rules, I suppose. And I think for me, it's like, I have to constantly ask why. I have to ask questions all the time. I have to be like, well, why does it have to be that way? Because then you can kind of like challenge that person or that tradition with the kind of alt version of that. You know, like why do you have to,

I don't know, shoot a music video like this? Why do you have to roll out an album campaign like this? Why do you have to roll out an album campaign like this? Why do you have to write a song in this structure? Like I just found like challenging with questions, asking questions, always provided me with like new and kind of more interesting answers. Yes. Well, I think too, in a way, when you're... I think that there's something to be said for almost knowing too much

when you begin a creative endeavor. Like, I... It's far harder, not that it's not possible, but it's far harder to like disrupt when you know too much. Because you end up just following the rules. And so like, I think there's something special about having enough knowledge so that you can create something. You need the basic, you need knives in the kitchen, you need to know how to cut things, but you don't need to know exactly how to make a recipe. That's how you can, I guess, go in and disrupt and also bring a new sort of feeling to something. Yeah.

Which I think is far more exciting. Well, I think there's a real like, there's a really interesting thing about like, naivety in creation. When you're kind of going, like you said, you need knives in the kitchen. I love that as a phrase. Thank you. But yeah, it's like there is also this kind of exciting thing about like not knowing what's going on that can produce really interesting and unique results.

Yes. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Fizz. Looking for a new mobile provider? Fizz does things differently. They offer complete transparency, no contracts, no hidden fees, no false promises. Fizz is 100% online. You're free to change your plan every month as much as you'd like. Don't like it? You're free to leave whenever you want. No hard feelings. But if you do like Fizz, the more you stay, the more you get rewarded with dollars off and

free data. You can even roll over on used data each month. Try the other side, switch to Fizz. Check out Fizz.ca, conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. How epic is that? And it's free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda.

It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils. So whether you're going on a run or you're running late, do what life throws your way and smell like you didn't. Find secret at your nearest Walmart or Shopper's Drug Mart today. Starting really young, in what way was that really beneficial? And in what way was that kind of horrific? Because it's kind of horrific.

And that's, you can really, really go in, that's like a big question. So... Yeah, well, it's interesting because like the benefit of starting young was I got so much experience. I was thrown into a world like with adults and I was learning so much so fast from them. Um, and that was really cool. And it was really cool to kind of get to know myself through that process, I suppose. But the negative side of it is like, when you were 16, you were cool. No.

Yes, Emma. Thank you. Yes, you were cool. No, no, no. I look back and I cringe. No, I mean, I'm sure everybody does. Yes. But when I, and I feel this when I look at like so many artists and creative people, it's like... Billie, for example.

Yeah. When she... How old was she when she kind of like came out? Like 14? I don't know. But she was so cool. Yeah. When I was 14, because I was making music when I was 14. Yes. It was like... I was 14, because I was making music when I was 14. Yes. It was like, I was so lame.

I was like, no, but I was just like, I think that for me is the negative thing. Like, I feel like as time has moved on, the culture of cool and aesthetic and references and being well read actually is kind of happening like younger and younger and younger. I feel like most like 12 year olds are cool now. You know what I'm saying? Or have an awareness of like my life is on the internet. I need to present in a certain way and I need to have certain interests and I need to understand certain things and know what's kind of like even like socially, politically, like culturally, like correct, incorrect, what's aesthetically pleasing versus not. Like when I was 12, you didn't really like, I mean, maybe if, maybe I was just like super unaware and like not very smart or like cool, I don't know, but like those things weren't crossing my mind really.

I was just like on my space. It was so new. It was insane. No, it was so new. You were like right before there was like Instagram as a tween. Okay, because I got Instagram as a tween and immediately it was like, oh fuck, I need to get my shit together. And it was like, and I wasn't in the public eye yet. Like you were already starting your career at 14, really.

You know what I mean? 14, you're a fuck, like everyone is a mess at 14. You're a mess. And like it's impossible. It also was, what was trending, it's impossible. It also was what was trending It changes literally every year. So like you look back now and you're cringing but it's like That was what was I feel like that's what was cool at the time But it must be a nightmare to an extent because it's like it's permanently a part of you like somebody who's not a public figure

Doesn't have to carry with them permanently a part of you, like somebody who's not a public figure doesn't have to carry with them, you know, their 16 year old identity, even their, you know, like they can shed it as they grow up. And it's like, you know, when you go from high school to college, you can shed your high school identity and just be a brand new person in college. And there's something really refreshing about that freedom. And I think it's challenging identity wise to

like have to hold on to everything. When it comes to making music too because people still listen to music that you made when you were a completely different person I can imagine how do you like maintain a current identity when you are kind of constantly being haunted of Charlie's past? You know what I mean? Like... Yeah, I mean, again, I feel like this must be similar with you. It's like, I know that I have some really hardcore fans who have been with me through

every kind of iteration of my career and understand my growth. And then I have some fans who are like, oh, I love Charli because she made Boom Clap. And like that's, you know, that's like their favorite song. That's probably like my peak in their minds and what they associate me with. Maybe like you have fans who are like,

oh I love Emma when she was making these videos when she was 16 and I don't really get her now. Yes, yes. Or whatever. Absolutely. You know, and I feel like every person kind of has that and you know, there's different levels of fandom as well. There are the fans who are gonna like ride or die for you and you know, if you decide to like do something

completely, totally different than what you're working on right now, they'll still like stick with you and follow with you because they love you and all of the kind of facets of your personality. Whereas there are other fans who just, and this is no bad thing, but they just like this kind of gravitate to one particular thing that you do. Totally. And so I kind of, it's cool, like I'm at peace with it because I like that people like different aspects of my work. Yes.

And you know, you kind of have to celebrate that and I think I'm always pretty like, I'll always like try and, well, sometimes I, I'm not sure if this is a good thing. I kind of always try and like play to my audience. Like if I'm doing a more mainstream festival, I'll be like, I'll throw Boom Clap in. But if I'm playing my headline show, like I'm not going to play Boom Clap. Yep. Although I have in the past.

But that's normal. But you know. Yeah, but also I do think, well that's actually, I did have that question written down was like, maybe less about, you know, like the setlist specifically, but more like when you're creating something new, who are you making it for? Because I've, and why are you making it? For me, I make it for me.

Definitely. It's good. Um, yeah. And especially with this record, it's been very like instinctual. I've just been like, not really thinking about the consequence or the outside world or even when I was making it, how it was going to be performed or anything like that. I think I always think about how it's going to be presented visually because that goes very hand in hand with my music making process.

But yeah, really just made music that I would want to hear in a club basically. Yeah. When it comes to the visual, like the relationship, the visual relationship, what's sort of the, like, what's the process of that? Like, when do you start to imagine like what the visual identity is of a project? Does that just kind of come almost like sort of like a universe-scent sort of like vision or like is it something that like what comes first or do you have like an idea sometimes you're like maybe you can see

in your brain like the Pinterest board of it and then you're like oh this is how I'm gonna this is sort of how I want to make the music. What comes first? It's both and it's very chicken egg situation. It's like with this record, I wrote a couple of songs, some which have ended up on the record, others which got discarded. But I think after writing, after having like three or four songs that were like, okay, these are going to be on the record. I was like, oh, the title is Brat. And the world is very brutalist. And it's like this girl who like goes to a rave and she's wearing a tank top and you can kind of see her nipples through it. She's like sweaty, but she's hot.

She's like dancing with her friends. And you know, I was just piecing this all together. And then that allowed me to go on and write more songs under this kind of guise of like, I know what this girl wants. Yes. You know, and that girl is me. But like, you know, I was kind of, does that make sense? I completely know what you mean.

Yeah. So that, so it's kind of both. I keep doing this thing where I keep randomly just like looking into that camera. It's like the office. It's just, suddenly I'm just like, I'm like, and I'm that girl. No, but it's kind of, honestly, lean into it because it's kind of fun. And like, I, do people even watch the video version? I don't know. It's possible. They do.

They must. I've seen it. It exists. I watched, like, I saw some TikToks of you and Owen. Yes. That must have been fun. Oh my God, it was so fun. Do you have guests a lot?

You know, it's been hard for me because I think I'm so used to... I love conversations, but it's also hard for me to bring... Thank god. Thank god. Yeah. But I'm so used to doing it alone. So having like a conversation alone. Like, I built the podcast on that, and so I didn't ever have guests on.

And I was like, it would be nice to bring people on and sort of diversify the type of conversation that's happening. However, I think the challenge for me has been, it's nice when you know the person. Yeah, yeah. And I don't really, to be honest, like, I don't know that many people. Like I'm not super... You're not really like out and about. No, I'm not.

It's great. Like I'm so... I don't know why that is, which I feel like you are out and about. More than you, yeah. Like no offense. Like I just... Not at all. I... This is the life I live.

No, no, no. I remember the first time we met was at... I don't know if I should say it because it feels like showy. Say it. No, now it's more of a thing. Now it's more of a thing. We met for... We met... We were going for dinner. We really did. No, now it's more of a thing. Now it's more of a thing. We met for, we met, we were going for dinner. We had dinner, we had chicken nuggets. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Why do I feel like we met before that?

I don't know. You know what? I saw you at a Beanie Doobie show. That's true. I was like, that's Emma, she doesn't know who I am. And we kind of looked at each other. I fully knew who you were. But I just looked.

We both kind of did the thing of like, yeah, we'll talk later. Like I am so bad about... I get nervous in my head. This is my thing, because I've been told so many times that I look different all the time. I always do this thing when I meet someone where I'm like, even if I've met them before, I'll be like, hey, it's Charlie. And they're like, yeah, bitch, like, I know. But like, I've been told by so many people that I often look very different

from time to time, from like one time to another time. Weird. I think it might be a hair thing. Oh, see, I have that because I always go blonde to brunette, blonde to brunette, back and forth. I'm like, yeah, but then it's Emma. See, but I feel that way about you. OK, well, that's nice to know. But I also always feel like I don't introduce myself to people a lot because I'm like,

they don't care. That makes sense. That's why I didn't introduce. I was like, I don't want to go over and be like, Emma, Charlie. And also I wouldn't do it like that. It's easier on the receiving end. I hate doing it. I like.

Yeah, same. It's nerve wracking because what if I was like it. I like... Yeah, no, same. It's nerve-racking. It's nerve-racking. Because what if I was like a bitch and you came over and you were like, hey, Charlie, I'm Emma. And I was like, cool. No, but that happens.

Go fuck yourself. That, I swear to, it doesn't happen a lot. But that shit will happen. It's happened occasionally. And I would never ever do that to anyone. You would never. But now knowing you, I'm like, you would also never do that to anyone. Never.

But like, you never know. You fully don't? You never know because someone's like, could be just like presenting is really cool, and then you meet them and they're like, hey, like, why don't you fuck off? No, it's, well, that's the thing. You know? I am like weird about just being like this sort of like quiet little fly on the wall in the corner. And I'm not, I don't know, I'm not like a socialite.

Like I'm not built that way. Whereas I feel like, and being a socialite, that like word, that term, I don't have a better one, but it's like, that's a skill. I feel like we are very cut from the same cloth in the way that we interact with people and also the way that we go out like I like I Go out More than you I do think but I think when I'm out I behave the same way as you

Totally, I don't I'm just kind of like Yes kind of like, bah. Yes. You know what I mean? Like we were out in Paris. Oh, that was so fun. I felt so fun, but I felt, we had a similar vibe. Yeah.

Where it's like, I mean, a lot of your identity is, public identity is around this sort of like, Girl who goes out thing. Girl who goes out, but in a fucking cool way that's like, it's not going out for anyone else. It's going out for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's like it's not going out for anyone else it's going out for you yeah like that's your spirit which is I feel like something that is so it's a good message because I feel like that's when going out is a positive

net positive thing were you more of a party girl back in the day and it's sort of like fizzled now or is it, I don't know, how has it evolved over the years? It's honestly, it's the same babe. I love that though, that's so good. I, you know, I definitely, you know, I'm 31 now, so I definitely have to pick and choose my moments a little bit more. Of course. moments a little bit more because I like to have some drinks and when I was like, you

know, 19, I could go for it and never feel anything. And now I'm like, I got to be a little more like, you know, selective. And for me, it's like, I always want to go out if I'm feeling like up for it and if it's going to be fun. I never want to go out just because it's like an event that I have to do. I really treat that as work actually and I'm sure you're kind of the same. It's like if there's like a party that's part of a fashion show, like most of the time, it's not turning into like a really fun time. Sometimes it is. It's rare. But it's rare. Often it feels like work and then you like leave and you go

and like meet up with your friends like we did in Paris in that like random restaurant that we ended up taking over, which is so fun. And so I still, I love it. It's like, for me, if I'm down, there's a good group of people, like, let's go. I was curious about that because I think a lot of people, as they, you know, like go through their career and as things evolve, they start to become like,

you know what, like, I can't do these things anymore. Like, I can't wear clothes like this anymore. Or I can't go out like this anymore. They sort of like stop themselves from doing things that are maybe fun or more like Well, my problem is I have no control Yeah, which is also kind of a bad thing. Yeah, if I do go to like a fashion party that turns fun For example, like I have no sense of like now would be the appropriate time for me to leave You know, I'm like if I'm having fun, I'm like,

yeah, like we're here, woo! But like someone has to fucking do that. That's me. At like a corporate-ish party. All the shit people are like, oh yeah, no, we're like going at like 10.30 and I'll be there till one. Like woo! No, but that's you though.

That just proves, I think, your identity is honest. You know what I mean? It is you. Is that something that you're sort of maintaining because this has been sort of my identity for so long, my brand for so long, like I'm gonna stick to this, and maybe it's not me anymore, but it's still in me in some way.

So I'm creating it for almost this, maybe this past self or like this, this caricature of me. But it sounds like it's not that I'm in it, it's fully you. I'm in it. I'm in it. More than actually ever, I think. Like I really, I think like making club music has sort of almost reintroduced me to the idea of like being really down to go out and like listen to club music and put myself in those environments because I'm making that music more. So I've kind of been collaborating with people more in that world. And that opens me up to like,

I'll come to this thing or someone's doing a techno party or whatever. And that's really fun. Like I really, I really like going out and I really like, you know, my fiance's in a band, so I feel bad saying this, but like, I really don't like, I like watching them, but I don't love going to like live shows. Like, I wanna watch like a DJ. I wanna go to a party. Understand that.

No offense to bands out there, like we love you. We love the bands. We love the bands, we love the live music. Yeah, but you're not like bumping, like you're not bumping to... No, you're kind of like, you're kind of going like... Yes, yes. You know, I wanna be like...

I could not agree more. Like I almost either want something that's so slow and so crazy that everyone's sitting down. Or crazy, crazy, crazy shit, right? Yeah, you know what the thing is that is cool? It's like, obviously, if you're going to see a band in an arena, there is an option to sit, which is awesome. But if you're going to see a band who's maybe playing, like...

the Shrine, like a 5,000 cap theater or whatever, I just feel like there should be an option for like seats. Oh, I could not agree more. I'd love to just like have a little pop-up chair. Fully. Like it shouldn't be... Like it shouldn't be mandatory to have to stand in a smaller gig. Like maybe they could give us like stools.

Stools would be great. You know? Bare minimum. This episode is brought to you by Kraft Dinner. Adulting is tricky, okay? It comes with freedom and parties and good things like that, but there's still some responsibility. Bill Payne and all that stuff too. So when you need to break free from responsibility and experience the deep satisfaction of being

you, reach for Kraft Dinner macaroni and cheese. Being starved for moments that bring you back to who you really are and what you really love is no good. That's when it's gotta be Kraft Dinner. When you gotta do you, it's gotta be KD. Shop now. I think we're similar in this way where it's like, it's our job to do these things. It's like, it happens to be our passions

and the things that we enjoy also are our job, whatever. There's also this third element, which is the industry that we enjoy also are our job. Whatever. There's also this like third element which is the industry that we're a part of but I feel like both of us are like We understand that this is here And we understand there's a lot of opinions going on over here Yeah, and that there's a lot of ways that things are supposed to be done in quotes, you know, but I don't think either of us care like so what's your relationship like to the man, if you will, like the industry? Is it like, are you like resentful towards it in a way or are you more like, no, I just

don't give a fuck. I'm just going to do what I want and I appreciate your opinion or I appreciate the way that you think this should be done. I appreciate that you think that, you know, that this one's gonna be huge and that this one's not gonna be huge. I appreciate you telling me that I don't care. I'm gonna do this anyway. Like, where are you at? Yeah, I definitely... I'm definitely in the latter camp now of like...

Less even like, oh, I know you think this song is going to be huge. And this one isn't, I don't even ask for the opinion. Like I don't, I'm not interested. Like I've had to really work really hard to get into that place where really like the people that I work with leave me alone because they trust me and we've built the trust. And that's great. leave me alone because they trust me and we've built the trust and that's great. And you know, they know that I'm not interested in the narrative around like successful songs versus unsuccessful songs.

It's just, it's like, I'm not operating in that space anymore. I'm not operating in like a space where I'm analyzing numbers and like, you know, I'm not, I'm not, if it happens, awesome. That's great. But it's not my primary care. Like my primary care is that I'm able to make art that I really love and feel inspired by. And then I hope that that sparks a conversation on a large scale, but I

don't necessarily need the end goal of that conversation to be like the best stats in the world, like I'm not competing with those kind of artists. Like it's not, my music doesn't go hand in hand with like that. My music is music for the nighttime. You can't play it in coffee shops. You can't play it in like a chill playlist on Spotify. Like it's like very specific, like, you know, and I'm so at peace with that. And I love that because I love making that music. So right now I would say, yeah, the vibe is very much like, I'm just doing my thing. But it's interesting that you mentioned representing the man because I've definitely been there too. Definitely been at points in this place of like resentment with the space that I found

myself in in my career. And who's to say I won't end up back there, you know? Like it's definitely like a pendulum swinging one step forward, two steps back kind of thing, you know? So I've definitely been there, I've been being like, why am I not a different artist who can have all that I have, but also have all of these other things that I don't have? And you know, I've definitely been there.

But right now, I'm like very at peace, because I think it's because I'm really, really happy with the music that I've made. Yes, it's so hard when you're not, when you're not 100% on what you're creating, and then that voice comes in, you can't handle it. It stings. Whereas when you love what you're making,

it's like you have this protective bubble around you, and like nothing can touch you. And so it doesn't matter what the fuck happens, because you're so stoked on what you made, that nothing else matters. It's... But it's... You can't always be there. No, it's a hard place to be and you have to work to be there.

You know, I've really had to work to get myself into a place where I'm like, you know, if this all fails and everything burns to a crisp, that's fine because I stand by this work. And I've definitely in the past, like kind of kidded myself into that. And maybe if things haven't gone exactly the way I thought of, it has felt like there's been a sting. But with this, it's like, I really believe in this music and I really believe in kind of the culture around this record. And I think it's doing something quite unique and different and progressive. And maybe not everybody will see it that way and that's okay. But for me, I really feel that if I was watching this album campaign from outside, I would be, my interest would be pipped.

Is that the word? I don't know if it's the word, but I fucking love it. Pipped my interest? I love pipped. It's pipped, right? It doesn't matter because it's so good. And you just trademarked that if it didn't matter whatever so good and you just I'm pipped personally so that's

I'm personally pipped. Yeah, so I don't know so I feel good about it basically I'm curious about your work-life balance cuz I find like in yeah, it's so tough because well you're in a relationship Although but you were work you've worked with him, correct? How was that like, like combining that? It was like really sexy to begin with. Because I think we were both trying to like really impress each other. Oh, I love that. You know?

So I think we were both quite nervous, but we were both like being sexy. Yes, that's so good. And then now it's like the opposite. Now I'm like, because he is the person that I'm obviously like most myself with. Of course. I can be really snappy with him. Oh, totally. You know, I'll be like, George, why, like, let's do it. Why haven't you comped the vocal?

And he'll be like, can you chill out? Like, you know, whereas with other producers, I would never be like... Oh, you're on your best behavior. You know. Oh, I would never be like... Oh, you're on your best behavior. You know? Oh, I work with my dad a lot. Uh-huh. Like, he'll film shit for me or like whatever. Yeah.

Oh, I'm a fucking nightmare. Right. Even with my stylist, Jared, he'll take photos for me. Like, when we do fashion week, like, he also takes my photos. And I'm like, Jared, we need to eat. We need to eat. I'm hungry, Jared. Take the...

Like, I could not understand that more. Right. But that's also like, you... I feel you get the most honest result out of that in a way. Yeah, you do. You do. You do. Wait, hold on. I'm like obsessed that Jared does all your pics. Oh, all my Fashion Week photos. Really? Yes, like especially last Fashion Week he was like...

Like, do you have like a little camera thing? It's like a little piece. It's not even like this... Yeah, you have the camera. It's tiny in like three settings. I get it. I get it. No, it's great. He has passports.

I also am good at like color grading and I like get in there and color grade for like four hours. Does Jared have like the angle? Like he knows. He's like Emma wait, work. Why don't trust fucking taking photos. There's nothing. I don't trust fucking taking photos. There's nothing, if there's not someone taking a photo who cares about it being flattering,

it's honestly the worst experience. A nightmare. It ruins my life. I know. Well, it doesn't anymore. Like I'm trying to not care. You're great at Fashion Week though. Thank you.

I mean, also like the number of shows you do. I don't know why I keep doing that. Well I think because like... Because I love it. You love it and you love putting an outfit together and you do it really well. Thank you. But like when I see you at Fashion Week and if I see Jared and he'll be like oh yeah we're gonna do like Mimi we have Lou Lou Ewe, we did it. I'm like, what? I'm like, how are you changing in between them?

Are you changing the car? Oh, we've never had to change in the... I've never planned it so that I'd have to change in the car because I know... So you go back to the hotel? And do Glam Again. Usually... But you sometimes will do like five shows a day. No, I've only...

The most I've ever done in a day is I think three. Wow. And I somehow had a gap that like allowed me, like one was super early and then one was like 8 p.m. But I like, I like to go back and do glam again and have like a full new look. Because it's honestly, that's like what's fun about fashion for me. Yeah. Like it's like when you get to go and do the full fucking look.

I know you're the same. But you know what's funny about me with Fashion Week? It's like I can't do the number of shows you do because I want to go to all the parties. So I can't do it because I'm like, I can't. It's like the hangover. They're like, oh, if you're like, you know, I don't know, like going to like some like Loewe dinner

And then like Loewe party and I'm having that time of my life Yeah, you gotta like wake up in the morning to go to a show at like 10 a.m Which means you have to glam at 7. Yes. No I don't go. No, I go out see this way. I can't do all the shows I did not go to one. I went to like one party for like five minutes and I was like, I'm all good. Well, you know what happens to me though? You do dinners? You just like go for dinner with Jared? Love the dinners. Like also sometimes brands will have dinners. I love going to those.

I'll go to dinner with Jared. We do room service always. Also a lot of times my dad is there too. I'm like, so well like dude and he's like fun, chill, cool dad. So like he like, we gossip with my dad about the shit. That's fine. chill cool dad so like he like we gossip with my dad about the shit I don't know but it's so weird I'm the type that like I had this like single phase yeah that was so hot and I was like not really though it was hot in the sense that you were like out I was so out you would have not recognized me but I'm only and so I have it in me to go all fucking night. I know you do. I don't doubt it. But the second I have a fucking boyfriend, it's done.

I get it. I get it. And I can definitely be like that with George, you know. Do you party with him? Yeah. See, that's, it's, if you have somebody who loves to party too, that's nice. He likes to DJ, so we'll go out and he DJs, and I'm like dancing, and maybe I'll like... That's unbelievable. DJ a little bit too, you know, so it's fun like that. Yeah.

And I really encourage him to dance, because I think he looks really cute when he dances. This is so, probably so embarrassing for him. I'm like, he looks like he's dancing. Well, you guys, he can dance. Well, I mean, I mean... So he can't dance, but he's cute when he dances. I like boys who are just like like not afraid to just be like, yeah, like even if they suck, I think there's a charm in just like going for it.

To be free is to be handsome. Right? Oh my God. Right? Yes. Need knives in the kitchen or whatever. To be free is to be handsome. For fucking like tattoo inspo. Pits, pits or whatever I say. I don't know. We're killing it.

Yeah. Well, we're coming up with new. Everybody's going to get this shit. These are Instagram captions. These are merch. Oh my God. I can't wait for our merch club. It's going to be huge.

It's going to be amazing. It's going to be major. It's going to be so good. So like, what are you stoked about right now? I'm kind of stoked about like for the first, feeling like I have a pretty good work-life balance. Oh, so good. You know, I feel like really just happy to be living my life a little bit.

Like, because I feel like, you know, you can always function and you can always like live inside this like manic schedule of like all can always function and you can always live inside this like manic schedule of like all these different things that you have to do. But actually it's really nice to be like, I'm going to just like pause that, put it on ice and actually just like spend time with my friends or spend time with my family. Do this and the other and not have it be about, you know, work. Although sometimes it is, it's like more recently for me I've been really able to be like, I'm going to take this weekend to just like watch like four movies. Yes. I'm going to take this weekend to, you know, like yesterday we all cooked

lunch together and swam. It's gorgeous. That's what you need. We need more of that shape. Terry made a dandelion salad. That's beautiful. Yeah. He came around with a big like, Nara Smith style wooden bowl. Stop. And he made a dandelion salad. Fuck.

That's, I'm kind of like, I want to... Do you know who Nara Smith is? Are you kidding me? Okay. Sorry. I can, can I just say? I'm kind of like... Do you know who Norah Smith is? Are you kidding me? Okay, sorry, I can... Can I just say... I'm so obsessed with her. I only... Like... I guess I am so late. I am beyond... I'm beyond late.

I discovered this woman... three days ago. Okay, for me it was like a month. And for everybody else it was like a year. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, we're late. Okay, yeah, we're late. But I discovered her three days ago, and all I'm getting now on my TikTok feed is her. Her and like people parodying her and more of her and like her husband.

And I just I just can't get enough. Does it make you like I watch it and I want to be a mommy. Me too. Like, does it make you want to go mommy vibe? She's just so gorgeous. I know it seems so easy for her. It seems so easy for her. How have you woken up so early to make this cereal? No it's unbelievable. Like what time are you getting up? You getting up at 4am?

I can't, she wakes up, she doesn't sleep, but yet somehow she sleeps a full night. I don't get it. She's like peaceful and tranquil, but she's also like up at 4am making like homemade cinnamon crunch. And she's so pregnant and she's never showed a symptom. She's like, no one's. She's always pregnant and I've never seen her complain. My god, is she just a happy woman on her own? I think she really loves being pregnant.

Yeah, some people are like that. I mean, who knows? Maybe she hates it. I don't know. She's like, I hate it. I'm assuming a lot about Nara. I assume everything about her. Me too. And you know what? She's okay with it. Do you dream of being a mommy one day or are you like, fuck no? Um, I really am so back and forth about it, to be honest.

Like, I definitely wasn't somebody who kind of like dreamed of that. You know how some people are like, yeah I was born to be a mother? Yeah. Like I've never really like felt that level of needing that. I also was somebody who you know I as a little girl I was never like I'm gonna get married one day. I never like dreamt about my wedding in that way that some girls do or in that way that you know like I think society like painted like little girls as like dreaming about their wedding dress.

Like I like it didn't cross my mind once. You know? Yeah. But now I am planning my wedding and being absolutely insane and it's so fun. I'm having so much fun. I can't imagine. It's so fun. It's so weird.

But we're also being like crazy. We're like I don't imagine. It's so fun. It's so weird. But we're also being like crazy. We're like, I don't know, whatever. We're like, we're gonna have this like really epic, like cigarette station. And we're gonna have these people like walking around with like silver trays of cigarettes. And our like wedding planner is like, okay, like, shall we just decide like, you know, like the food and we're like, fuck it. It doesn't matter. Everyone's just gonna smoke. Like, you know, we're just being like so dumb.

But yeah, so the babies thing, it's like, I don't know. Like some days I'm like, yes. Yeah. I actually have a song about this on my album, like where I'm kind of talking about, maybe this is too sterile to say it like this, but the pros and cons of motherhood and like... That makes complete sense to me. You know, I think there's like a lot of things that we have to sacrifice.

Absolutely. And I think obviously we live in this world now where everybody's like, no, but like you don't have to sacrifice anything because you can like be a mom and work and do that and you know, whatever. But I think there's just so many different like things that come up. No, you absolutely have to sacrifice things. Yeah. And I just say that you don't is not it's not realistic, but it's also okay to sacrifice things. Totally. It's totally okay. I would worry that there would be some resentment for me. Absolutely.

And I feel like maybe there's a lot of nervousness around talking about the possibility of feeling that way because does that equate to being a bad mother? I don't think so. I think it just equates to being a human mother. I don't think so. I think it just equates to being like a human being. Agreed. But I think like there is a lot of kind of fear and like nervousness around being able to like completely talk like totally openly about, you know, how we as women feel about like the potential of like having a baby and being a mother. Because I think we can be so shamed into, you know, like, I think there's a lot of like,

people want to shame us about like, maybe like, if we don't want to be moms or... Well, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Totally. It's like, exactly. So I haven't really figured it out. To be honest, um, I don't know. I don't really know. You don't need to know. Do you know? Do you want to have kids? I do. And I came to that conclusion from Nara Smith. Shut up. No. A shining light. I literally thank God for her. She showed me everything I needed to know about motherhood. No, I decided I did only because I think I like, I accomplished my dream in a way career-wise.

I don't need anymore necessarily career-wise. I'm like sort of at a place where it's like now I just want to just do things that are fulfilling for me, which is an absolute treat and like it's a treat to do it that way. And it's like, but I don't necessarily have this goal anymore. And so I kind of had this identity crisis for a long time. Like, well, what is my goal in my life then? Like, what is it? So, and I thought about it for a long time. And I came to the conclusion that for me,

it was having a family of some sort. So it like no matter how it sort of forms and in what way that is I was like I think that is gonna be the most fulfilling thing I can work towards because for me I'm not fulfilled enough by The By anything like you know what I mean? Like that I feel like I need. Whereas some people don't need that. Some people are fulfilled by sort of pursuing

this magnum opus of whatever their ultimate creation is or something, you know? There's some people who are like, fuck a family, I don't need to do that. I wanna create this piece of art that lasts for longer than me. Or like, you know,, I don't need to do that. I want to create this like piece of art that lasts for longer than me. Or like, you know, some people are just... Like, I want to help other people.

I don't need a family. I can go find family elsewhere and help. Like, forever... It's different for everyone what that is for them. But I don't know for some reason. I... It was like, I think I have to. Yeah.

Like, my gut was like, Emma, you have to. Then that's cool. But that also might change. Like, I don't know. I remember when I was 21, I was like obsessed with the idea of having a baby. And I was with a guy who was a nightmare. Oh, fuck. And I was like, I'm going to have a baby with him.

And I'm, thank God I didn't. Thank fucking God you didn't. But I was so, you, no, no, thank God I didn't. Thank fucking God you didn't. But I was so in my head. And then I swung the other way to like, I'm never having a baby. And then I can like swung. It's like, I've been, I've definitely been like, I want it, I don't want it, I need it.

I don't, you know, so who knows? I've been there too. I like, I was kind of like really against it for a long time. And then I was like, I don't know. But I also think too it does, people like don't think about how important who you choose is. Yeah.

Like it's weird. But then also sometimes people do it on their own and that's really cool. Well that's great because then you're not relying on anyone else. You know and I think everybody's scenario is so different and personal, and I don't think there can ever be like a blanket view on like... No, I know exactly what you mean. Having a child. Yes.

You know, because it's just everybody's life is different. Even when you're getting married, like, it's like, it's such an intimidating decision. You know what I mean? Like, holy fuck, who am I marrying right now intimidating decision. You know what I mean? Like, holy fuck. Who am I marrying right now? You know what I mean? Like, has that been, I mean, I guess... Am I nervous to get married?

Yeah, yeah. So what do you think of your husband? Do you like him or no? I don't know. It's like, it's a big part of growing up that's like terrifying. Like, my parents are divorced. So I was always like I actually really am not afraid of divorce though. Right, right, right, right. Because they got divorced and I was like it's all good. Are they friendly? Yeah. Cool. Which is like a god-sense.

So like for me it's not as scary. That's interesting. Well see for me marriage isn't really a big deal because my parents didn't get married until I was 16. Whoa! Yeah. Yeah. So marriage has never been this like weighted thing in my household. Totally. It's never really been like this thing that was ever expected of me or you know and when my parents did get married I went to the wedding and there were like three other people there. You know? And my mom like wore a dress from Zara.

It was never, it was not this like big thing. You know? So I don't have this... To me it's just like George and I getting married because we like really want to and we love each other but also we like really want to throw like a massive party. You know? And like I don't doubt, I mean, you know, God, who knows?

But like, I feel very much like this is it. Yeah. But marriage, like, it would be it without the marriage element too. A thousand percent. You know what I mean? Yes. So I just don't have this like weighted thing on marriage basically. Which maybe is naive of me. I don't really know.

No, no, no. I think it's healthy. Oh my god, your wedding is going to be so sick. Are you wearing like a traditional dress? Wait, don't tell me anything actually. Honestly, I haven't got that far yet. I feel like we're so lucky in that like we're so used to like doing fittings five days before that like I'm not stressed about that and I know that like Chris my stylist also isn't because

You know, you know Yeah, we'll figure it out. Yes, it's very privileged and spoiled with me, but we will figure it out. No, of course you are An absolute rock star. Thank you for talking to me for so long. So are you! No, this was so fun. This was fun. It was so fun. I had a really good time. Same! I had a really good time.

You need to be my co-host, that's your next job. I would love that. Let's do it. Okay, send me, send me coffee. Oh, I will be sending you, like, you just need to text me that address. I want the cold brew bags. Oh, that's easy for me.

Okay, good. That's what I want really badly. You're gonna have so fucking much. Good. That's easy for me. Okay, good. That's what I want really badly. You're going to have so fucking much. Good. That you're going to never be able to like. I want a lifetime subscription, please. Done. That's done.

Consider it fucking done. Done.