anything goes with emma chamberlain - friendship, a talk with danielle bayard jackson [video]

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

[video available on spotify] i would not consider myself to be a friendship expert, and so that's why i'm very excited to talk to danielle bayard jackson. she’s a friendship coach who speaks nationally on the subject of female friendships. through her work, danielle teaches women how to make and maintain better friendships through research-based methodology. friendship is a huge piece of our foundation in life and digging in and analyzing it never hurt anyone.  you can buy danielle's book here: https://www.daniellebayardjackson.com you can hear danielle's podcast on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7grL1odIL4KlE5wMWolr9a?si=856d6791c0f44923 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I would not consider myself to be a friendship expert. In fact, I feel like nobody is, except for who we're about to talk to today, but who we are as a friend is so unique to us as individuals and what we look for in friends is so different depending on, I don't know, who we are and what we're looking for in a friend. And so that's why I'm very excited to talk to a friendship expert today, Danielle Byard Jackson.

She is a friendship coach who speaks nationally on the subject of female friendships. Through her work, Danielle teaches women how to make and maintain better friendships through research-based methodology. She studied the ins and the outs of female friendships, which are particularly complicated, I would say. In fact, I made an episode a while back about female friendships from a very personal lens, which was maybe a mistake, because I mainly focused on the challenges of female friendships,

and I think I was speaking from a place of immature female friendships. And I think I was speaking from a place of immature female friendships. I was 19 or 20 when I recorded this episode. And to be fair, majority of my female friendships had occurred in middle school and high school. And talk about a turbulent time. Where everybody's insecure, nobody knows who they are. You know, I think the worst of female friendships

come out there. And that was mainly my experience. Since then, at a rapid pace, I think I've experienced more and more beautiful female friendships. And so my opinion has definitely shifted on what female friendships are. All this to say, we have a very phenomenal guest coming on today who is an expert in

female friendships. And she is going to answer even more of my questions that I have about friendship because I think friendship is often overlooked as something that just comes naturally to us. We're humans. We all have friends. This is like just what we do as humans. But friendship is a huge piece of our foundation in life and digging in and analyzing it never hurt anyone.

So that's why I'm so excited to talk to Danielle Byard Jackson today because she is going to speak the truth. If you love this episode and you want more, go check out the Friend Forward podcast, as well as the Friend Forward website. So if you wanna see more from Danielle, you know where to find her.

This episode is brought to you by Secret. Secret deodorant gives you 72 hours of clinically proven odor protection. How epic is that? And it's free of aluminum, parabens, dyes, talc, and baking soda. It's made with pH balancing minerals and crafted with skin conditioning oils.

So whether you're going on a run or you're running late, do what life throws your way and smell like you didn't. Find secret at your nearest Walmart or shoppers drug mart today. Were you social as a kid? Did you have a lot of friends as a kid? I did as a young girl, yes. And then I feel like with most people getting into high school, you're kind of finding your way again who you want to be.

So that was an interesting experience. Yeah, like you had your fair share of friendship ups and downs as we all have. Yes. Do you feel like the ups and downs led you to, I don't know, develop a deeper interest around friendship? Like how did you find a career in friendship? Yeah, no, it's funny because I think a lot of people think,

oh, if I've made a career of friendship, I must be the girl who just had great friendships. And I'm just trying to give some tips. But I say that I think that I am able to add value in this space because I know what it's like to get friendship wrong, you know? And I actually, I started as a high school teacher and I was teaching 12th graders. And it's the number one thing they wanted to talk about during class is friendship drama. And then I became the academic chair of the department and the teachers whenever we had

staff meetings, we all were talking about how to help kids navigate stuff because there was drama in the classroom. And then I left the classroom and I got into public relations and I found myself working with these high achieving, charismatic boss women. And it wasn't long before I realized, oh, they have, privately, friendship issues too. They have no shortage of social connections, but they feel deeply unsatisfied

with the friendships that they have. And so for the past six years, I've leveraged my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict. What would you say your biggest friendship challenge was throughout your life? Like what was a reoccurring challenge?

I think trying to be somebody you're not, which doesn't really go away. Like when I was working with teenagers or adults, trying to be someone you're not because you want to really go away. Like when I was working with teenagers or adults, trying to be someone you're not, because you want to belong, you want to impress, but inevitably it leads to you being wildly unsatisfied, tired because you're performing, and inauthentic. And so I think that's something we all have to kind of

grow into, getting comfortable in our own skin. Yeah. Well, I think the thing is too, friendship is something that's so ingrained in human beings that it's. Well, I think the thing is too, like, friendship is something that's so ingrained in human beings that it's almost overlooked, I think, as an important topic to focus on. I don't know, I've in the past, like, focused more on romantic relationships, for example. Like, I'm going to people and asking for advice about romantic relationships left and right, but with friendship, I sort of overlook it because they feel less significant. Why do you think friendship is so important?

Yeah, for a lot of reasons, but I will say that what you're feeling is totally supported by the research. The longest running study on happiness came out of Harvard, and for more than 80 years, they followed people wondering like, what makes us happy? And they found that the number one thing that contributes to our overall life satisfaction and well-being is the quality of our relationships.

That's it. Not your income, not whether or not you're married. The quality of your relationships. And, you know, I know that we tend to put romance and like on the forefront, but I would argue that friendship is at the heart of romance as well, because it starts there. You can't be my friend, you know, when you strip it all down, what are we doing?

And so, yeah, so we need people who offer social support and they, you know, they give us direction and feedback and help us grow. You grow and you heal in community. And so I know we live at a time and a culture where we champion individualism, but you know, all the growth that you really need to happen, all the joy that you can achieve and experience, community. And so I know we live at a time and a culture where we champion individualism, but you know, all the growth that you really need to happen, all the joy that you can achieve and

experience, it really comes through community. Yeah. What do you think makes a good friend? Like simply put, what is a good friend? People define that differently, but I would say at the end of the day, somebody who makes you feel safe, seen, and supported is probably somebody you're considering a really good friend. Like I think a lot of times we find ourselves in friendships or even groups of friends that are not serving us. But it happens sort of mysteriously. Like you end up in a group,

or you end up with a best friend even, and you start to realize, okay, wait a minute, how did I even get here and is this even good for me? Like, how often should we be analyzing our friendships and how do you manage figuring that out? Yeah, that's a great question because sometimes you do get on autopilot and you're just so used to each other

and it feels very safe, but I'm learning that there's a difference between safe and healthy. And so I think it's great to do an inventory every now and then the same way one might in your romantic relationship where you're like, okay, what is my friendship landscape looking like? Um, and also, I mean, the expectation thing is real because the research shows that women tend to have higher expectations than their close relationships, both in romantic and

platonic. So really look at your expectations. What is it you want? What is it you want like for your personal trajectory? What experience do you want from friendship? And what, like when you kind of look at each of your friends individually, does it measure up to what you say you value

and what you say you want? Because a lot of times to your point, I might have friends in my life who, you know, we've been together forever and you know, it feels risky to end this. And like looking at, I love this person and she means well to me, but you know, when I look at what I've got going on, it's no longer a fit and that's okay. As a matter of fact, the research tells us that we replace half of our friends every seven years.

So to some degree you have to expect a natural pruning to happen in your friendships and it's deeply uncomfortable, but you know, but it happens. That actually leads me to my next question perfectly. I have always like my friendships throughout my life have come and gone very seamlessly, weirdly. I think a lot of times people maybe look at friendships that come and go as like, there's someone's a problem here. Yeah. But when I look at say my own situation, I'm like, we just grew out of each other every single time. So I guess my question is, how many of our friendships should we be retaining? Because I think there's sort of this moral dilemma

of like, oh wow, I've shared a lot of friends throughout my life. I don't regret it. I feel good about it. Like I've moved on to, you know, people who fit me better in the present moment. But is there something wrong with that? Like should I be retaining more of my friendships

throughout my life? Like, what's happening there? So I'm curious, like your take. Yeah, so whenever women bring me that issue, I mostly work with women, and they bring me that issue, I'm always curious about why, to see if we can identify themes between the last like five relationships you released.

I'm always curious about that, because people get different answers. They might say, I just realized I began to get deeply uncomfortable with that relationship as I grew. It felt like it was compromising. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. But sometimes I hear people say,

she just started to bother me or she started to do this and I didn't like that. And I think you have to look inside and ask yourself when there are things that bring tension to the relationship. Do I wanna leave because I'm so uncomfortable with conflict that I start to tell myself like, this is run its course, but in reality,

I don't know how to have hard conversations or I don't know how to, you know, so some people, that's their theme of the friendships ending is the person does something I don't like. Okay, do you have a critic's mindset where you have a group of friends, but if people start to do things you don't like, you're looking for that. And when they have these elusive violations, you release them. But everyone's different.

So I would say, look at your last five friendships that faded out or that you found yourself saying, I think I'm over this. And I just be curious about the why and what themes emerge when you kind of track those last five friendships, you know, what's going on there? I think that's something to look at. Yeah. But I also say that I feel like friendships ending feels deeply shameful for some women.

It feels like a failure. Yeah. I worked with a young lady recently and she said, I just, you know, she was telling me all these things she was trying to do to get this friend back and she was like, okay, I messed up, but she won't talk to me. And she's telling me all these extravagant things she's doing. And I was like, okay, you're, you're doing a lot. Like you're being really intentional. What's going on? And she kind of just sighed and her shoulders dropped. And she said, I just can't have another friendship end.

And I'm just like, and what would that mean for you? Like what would it mean if this was over? What would it say about you? And I think a lot of us think it would say, I'm a bad friend. I'm not good at this. I'm not likable that people won't stay with me. I'm not lovable or interesting enough. And so, you know, uh, you know, the last thing I'll say here is when it comes to the longevity

of a friendship, I see a lot of people brag about, we've been friends 20 years. And I do think that's amazing. I have some of those. There's something really beautiful about having people who have seen you evolve. But if you measure success of any relationship by its longevity, that might have other issues. I've seen people endure mistreatment because they're like, well, we've been friends for 20 years. What would it say if I left? We've been friends for 20 years. Okay. Yeah. You know, so thinking about how do you measure success of a friendship and if it's mostly by longevity, I think that can be detrimental.

I agree. I've noticed that in my life. Like there are friends that I've had for 10 years, like whatever. And you know, not necessarily as close or as like vivid as it once was, but it's like, I don't know, like there's something special there, but it doesn't actually measure the quality of the friendship at all. Because there's people that I've met

within the last five years who I have a better friendship with than I ever have in my whole life. So it's very interesting how that is. When it comes to ending a friendship, what's the smoothest way to do that? Because I found that in the past, I tend to take a really,

it's sort of like all at once. Like it's slow and then all at once and I'm kind of gone. I'm still there, but I'm kind of gone, you know? And now I'm thinking about it. I am sort of avoiding a larger conversation, right? Cause I think I'm afraid of maybe bringing up the fact that I don't want to be friends anymore. I don't want to make that person feel bad.

I don't want to... So I leave them wondering and they never know. And like, that doesn't feel the smoothest because it doesn't leave them feeling resolved. never know. And like that doesn't feel the smoothest because it doesn't leave them feeling resolved and I'm aware of that. But then on the other hand, I've also found that when I have tried to bring it up and be like,

I don't think that our friendship is working anymore, I've been met with a lot of pushback and a lot of anger, way more anger. So it's like, what do we do here? Because it's handled differently than a breakup where there's like this huge conversation. It's not like you ghost your partner of four years. I mean, I guess people do that. Probably sometimes. My God, who is that? But yeah, how do you healthily end a friendship with the least amount of anger? I don't even know

if there's an answer. That is a complicated one. Okay. So a lot of it's largely circumstantial. So it depends like, okay, why am I ending it? Does this person know? Do they not? Was it something egregious or was, did I just have a aha moment of like, I don't know if I want to keep investing time and a lot of different reasons, right? So the first thing I'll say is a lot of friendships end by fading out. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. If I'm realizing like I'm not as into it and you are too, and we're like kind of calling a little less.

It happens, I think more than we give credit for where things just, or I'm committing to other certain things in my life. And so we invest less time and before you know it, no, I haven't seen her in seven months. So it happens all the time. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Friendships themselves are largely circumstantial. We're in the same space or we're doing this project together so we're in each other's, you know, vicinity's. A lot of things happen. Personally, I think a

conversation needs to happen when there's a discrepancy between our expectations. So if both people kind of notice the fade out and we're doing it because we're trying to spare the other person's feelings and it doesn't feel like it requires a formal sit-. That's one thing. But as soon as I want out, yes, she expects to maintain the status quo. There's a gap here. And so I have to ask myself, okay, do I want to keep dodging calls? Do I want to be dishonest about what I'm doing? Do I want to like, what amount of anxiety is this causing me to like keep dodging her

and this and that? And to what degree does it begin to feel like she's being led on? You know, she's not getting the hint and she's like, hey, let's hang out or hey, I bought you a ticket for the concert, I can't wait. As soon as there's a gap, I have to ask myself, okay, do I need to give her the courtesy of letting her in on what's going on so that she can make decisions

around what she wants to do for her life? But I've equipped her with the data that she needs to make that decision. So that might look like, and I know this is like, I know this is hard, but if somebody's continually pursuing, they're not really getting the hints that I'm starting to withdraw. I feel like you have to have that conversation as close to in-person as possible. Yep. Just so people can catch like your tone and stuff like that and not be like, Oh, that was cold.

Yeah. You want to do it as warmly as possible. Cause I know people tend to lean into like that HR language where they're like, you know, I just don't have the capacity for this relationship right now. And I understand that that feels very like safe to, you know, cause you're distancing yourself. So you're being really formal,

but it can feel cold and sterile to a person who was just like holding your hair back in the bathroom last weekend. And now you're talking to me like a parole officer. Yeah. It's incongruent with the history of our relationship. So you can feel disrespectful. So it's really hard, but you would just say, hey, I've been thinking a lot lately and I'm prioritizing XYZ right now.

And I don't think that's going to let me maintain this friendship the way that I was before. And I'm so sorry, but I just, I felt like I owed that to you. Yeah. And here's the thing you asked, you said, well, how do we do that without them being angry? There's no guarantee they won't be angry. There's no guarantee they won't misunderstand you or go and tell a different narrative to

your mutual friends. There is no guarantee. Yeah. And so everyone has to kind of weigh what feels appropriate, dignified, the best thing for me to do that I can stand by with integrity and say, hey, I was fair, I was honest, and that's just what it is. But it's tough. But I just know if I were on the other end, if I had any woman in my life, and she started to feel like, kind of over Danielle, I

wouldn't want her doing me any favors. Like, let me know it's gonna sting, but let me live my life. Yeah. To dig into female friendships, because I actually made an episode once on female friendships that was very controversial because I talked about the challenges in a way that was very like unfiltered in a way. Because, and I think that it was biased

in the sense that it was based on my experience and what I had experienced in life thus far. But it was mainly focusing on the challenges that come with female friendship, mainly being the competitive element. And it's kind of going away as I'm getting older, as I'm entering my mid-20s, like it's definitely fading a lot, which is gorgeous.

Wow, gorgeous. Because in middle school, for example, I mean, I think ruthless. I think that that's probably why the episode was so controversial, because I'm 22. And at the time I made that episode, I was probably 20. What I was mainly referring to was my younger female friendships, which were far more challenging. It's just a much more turbulent time.

But I still do feel like there is, at times, much less, again, much less now that I'm older, but like, the cattiness doesn't necessarily go away. You know, it was sort of controversial that I was mentioning the cattiness. I was mentioning the backstabbingness. I was mentioning the competitiveness. And I don't think I'm crazy for that.

Like, I feel like that exists. Would you say that that is a real challenge? Or, you know, like, or is that something that we've been taught in movies and it's like not real? So here's the thing. Whenever I walk into a room and the subject of female friendship comes up, I always say that you have two different groups. You have people who start to say, oh, I love my girls.

My girls are my everything. They are magic. They are my princesses. And they have a group that's like, oh my God, I cannot with the drama, with the pettiness. And the thing is, both are true. And it does not speak to the range of our humanity to tell one story. The story's that it's both. And I know because I embody both. I have had friendships that I'm Miss Grill your cheerleader and all the things. And I have been a friend who was jealous and

unsure and insecure. And all of our experiences are different. So depending on, you know, depending on whatever, a multitude of factors, maybe you had a great experience in middle school. I mean, I don't know many women who did, you know, maybe you did, you know, so we're bringing those experiences, surely it's coloring our overall, you know, you know, feel of women's friendships. About the competition that sometimes exists,

I like to start by saying being competitive is not exclusive to women. Absolutely not. Okay. Yeah. But I think the reason it sometimes feels so sinister is because oftentimes there's not room for us to outwardly compete and aggress and disagree the way that men have the same room. So I feel like the ways that we kind of hit at each other, they live underground because we have more social consequences if we loudly say, oh, I don't like that or push back or question. We have more consequences just culturally, I think like from the society.

And so, you know, the term for that is relational aggression. I call it sophisticated stealth. But where you feel like, okay, was she being nasty or was she just, because it has to live underground. And so the best, the girls who do it the best, mean girls are, you know, there's different terms for that. But the ones who do it the best can strike you in a very covert way, because we know that being

outwardly mean holds social consequences for us. So I don't want to look like the mean girl. So I'm gonna do little things that are like, oh, okay, that's a cute outfit. That's different. Yeah, yeah. You know? Like, oh, wow, you guys are dating?

Okay, no, that's awesome. I just, I didn't think you were like mainly his type, but I love that for you. Yeah. You know what I mean? That way it has to be stealthy so that if we're ever confronted about it publicly, you can deny it and be like,

oh my gosh, I didn't mean it like that. I was complimenting her. Right, right. Yeah, so it's like this little language. So I'll just say, you can deny it and be like, oh my gosh, I didn't mean it like that. I was complimenting her. Right. So it's like this little language. So I'll just say, female friendships are complicated, and I put this in my book, but I one day looked up the word complicated. I was just curious. And it said the intersection of many parts.

And I believe that's why female friendships are so complicated. For men, I know I'm generalizing here, but it's also rooted in the research and supported by the evidence, but they tend to compartmentalize friendship and they do not have friendships that are as platonically intimate the way that we do. And it's because we bring so much of ourselves. I'm looking for you to be my emotional support. And I'm looking for you to like do all the things in my life and satisfy a lot of different things. I want you to be my person I socialize with and I want you

to do all the things. And so by definition, it is more complicated. And I just think that, you know, I know this sounds really fluffy, but to sum it all up, I feel like the more secure and comfortable you get in your own skin, you have less of that. And I know people hear that all the time. It's so real. The more you feel good in your own skin, you will notice it starts to attract healthy friendships. Totally. So it's just, I mean, I think it's a growth thing. Um, but, but I will validate. I see what you see. That's totally a thing. It's so wild. I do think though,

what's been promising is like the older I get, I can't tell if it's like the older I get, the easier it is to avoid because I'm not in a school environment. Like there's something to be said for being in a confined environment and have only that community to choose from in a way, like when you're at school. That's why I think school friendships are so challenging is because you're stuck with this certain group of people

and then beyond that, you're in a really insecure time of life. I mean, I think that's just, that's a whole nightmare of its own. I totally agree. But I've still noticed even now, like as an adult in more of maybe the workspace, I have a very bizarre workspace,

but there still is a community. There are peers and I've found it's very challenging for me to find female friendships that feel genuine and not maybe competitive in a way or like, you know, I still struggle with that in some ways, but it's easier to avoid, so then it doesn't really matter as much. But you sort of spoke a little bit about earlier, women who maybe are hard workers and they're getting their shit done, and they're maybe really successful on the outside.

And you mentioned that maybe they have more challenges in some ways, finding meaningful female friendships. Why do you think that is and how does one combat that? Yeah, so yeah, I always joke that, you know, if you were to overhear somebody saying that they're working with a friendship coach, you'd be like, okay, like you're probably socially awkward and about 75% of the women I work with

are business owners, entrepreneurs, tons of Instagram followers, all the things you would never know. But it's because they are deeply unsatisfied with their friendship landscape. So it looks like a couple of things. One is a lot of times high achieving women, I mean, you're driven by achievement. So I've noticed them enter into new potential friendships, but they're leading with accomplishments. So they're leading with, well, what do you do? Oh, interesting.

What do you do? So from the beginning, that's the trajectory of this friendship, being kind of a professional transactional thing. So I'm calling you friend. I'm using that label, but deep down, if I were honest with myself, this is kind of like a business thing or like an upward mobility thing. And that's why I keep you around. But I'm calling you friend.

Okay? Another reason why they suffer is because if you pride yourself on self-sufficiency, like I'm a boss, I don't need help, you do not seek the support that you need. And that's one of the advantages of friendship. You have people to help you through. But if you feel like it makes you look weak, you do not ask for the support that you need.

So they'll tell me, I don't feel like my friends really see me, they don't really know me. Well, what is that? At some point I have to ask why is there a performance? Why can't you allow yourself to soften and say, I need help. Like I'm struggling. What is that about? But for high achieving women in highly visible, powerful spaces, a lot of them feel they don't have the safety or the space to do that. And then the last thing I've noticed too too is that sometimes our jobs take up so much of our world that we don't know what else we have to offer as a person outside of that.

So you don't make friends. Everything's got the business context because you don't make time for friendship. You don't show up outside of being a conqueror or professional conqueror. So people don't know anything but that side of you, which again leads to feeling deeply unknown and by extension unsatisfied. Do you think for somebody who maybe is very business minded, it makes sense to sort of set time for friendship? Most people end up, whether it's with school or work or whatever,

if you're gonna be succeeding in those things, it's really hard to have a social life. Like in times when I'm more socially fulfilled and I'm having more fun, I'm not getting shit done. You know what I mean? Like it's like very hard, but then when I'm getting so much done, I haven't seen my friends in two months. So it's like, how important is it to figure out that work,

social life balance, and what are your tips for people on that? Yeah, so I totally understand being in a season where you're like, okay, I'm trying to like crush all these things that are happening this month is busy for me. So naturally it's going to impact the hours I can dedicate to friendship.

So I totally get those seasons and those trade-offs. But when we take like a helicopter view and an aerial view of your friendships, that should not be the norm, is that most of my hours are in getting this money. Yeah. And again, I know there's a lot of stuff that feels counter-cultural to even say that

because it's like hustle, hustle, girl, get your check. And I respect that. But a couple of things can help. The first is think about things that you can do that aren't necessarily getting together in person, although that's the number one way to kind of clock hours together to feel seen is in real time, in person. But what are other things I can do to spend time with my friend or to clock hours together? Because I know a lot of times we're like,

I don't even have time to physically see her and I get that, traveling and all the things. But what are other things we can do? So for example, I know it sounds cheesy, but let's say there's a show that you both love. Okay, Thursday night, we're both virtually watching it and then we're gonna dish about it. It's so simple, but that is an example

of prioritizing friendship. You know what, Thursday, the emails for me stop at four o'clock. I need to talk to my girl. It is just as important. We cannot be pushing that into the margins of our lives and I'll get to it. And I just, again, it's so easy to get absorbed

with like hustle culture, but friendship just doesn't work that way. And again, I know as adults, we're prioritizing other things. Some people are focused on establishing family ties. Some are like trying to like crack down at work. Um, but friendship can't be an afterthought. Uh, because I work with too many women who lift their head up after running on the treadmill of life and business,

and they're like, well, I don't have any friends. Or like, gosh, I feel like I don't even know them anymore. Or they don't... That happens by, you know, bit by bit. That's not a sudden thing. It tends to happen as like a cumulation of a series of little choices. That's how we end up there. Yep. It's similar to, I feel like with romantic relationships, you know, like when someone gets into a relationship, a lot of times their friendships suffer. Oh, yeah. gets into a relationship, a lot of times their friendships suffer. And I've had that, let's say you only have X amount of time outside of work or school

or whatever for social. And that could either go to a significant other or to a group of friends maybe. How do you manage that? Because I think for a lot of people, it's not on purpose that they lose contact with their friends. And being in a romantic relationship maybe lines up with the trajectory of the life that I wanna have.

Like I wanna have a family or this or that. But you also need to have friends because that relationship could fizzle. And then you're like, that's a messy situation that I think is a lot easier to sort of discuss hypothetically. Like in reality, it's so challenging to manage. What is like a realistic sort of way to manage dating, work, friends, give everything proper attention?

Is it even possible sometimes? Yeah, okay, oh my God, so many things. The first thing I'll say is, um, I really appreciate you asking the question around, how do I balance this? Cause it's all important to me. I'm trying to figure out how do I balance this when it comes to romance versus friendship? The research says that people who are in a couple, mostly married couples, when they have friends outside of the friendship, those couples are more successful. Absolutely.

Okay. Than people who do not have friends. So we're not keeping our friends around as, okay, I need a backup in case this fails. I need friends to even stabilize this relationship. So if you want to be successful in your platonic or romantic relationships, keep your girlfriends around because research shows you need that. Okay. So that's important.

But the first thing I'll say is, if you find that you're like, I don't know that I can balance this all, how do I make more time for friends? One little sneaky little thing you're probably not looking at that could help a lot is look at how much time you spend alone, because that's my first tip for getting, like reclaiming time with friends

is look at how much alone time you spend. And the reason I say that is because there is this survey that came out. It's the American Time Use Survey, where they monitor and they see how are Americans spending every, you know, their hours. And in 2013, we were spending an average of six hours a week with our friends. Now about 10 years later, we're spending a little over two hours a week with our friends. And where did those extra hours go?

Alone time. Probably on the phone. On the phone, scrolling, streaming, all the things. That's not a bad thing. You need time to recharge. You need to know how to be good with your own company. But if you're feeling like I don't have time for friends, the first thing I point clients toward is,

can I ask what your alone time looks like? Because the easiest thing you can do is socialize the things that you are doing alone. You're watching shows, you're TikToking, you're cooking. Can I invite a friend into that? Hey, come tell me about your date while I make this new dish. Hey, come watch the show with me. Or even if it's not close friends and you're starting totally from scratch, okay, if I like to draw or read, can I go do it in a public space? Like at least I'm among other people and that positions me for opportunities for a person

to say, oh, hey, what are you reading? Or like, oh, hey, what? But how do I position myself for more connection in my life and like, yeah, it's gonna take away from other things. But I mean, it's that important to begin with. Is it something that needs to be planned or is it something that can be more intuitive when it comes to like managing these things?

I think it's a healthy mix of both because people who are believing like, friendship should just feel like easy and organic and natural. Like I totally get that. And to some extent, yes. Like it's a very elective relationship unlike other kinds of relationships, right?

Like, you know, professional, I'm here for my check, or romantic, we're opting in and then opting out. You know, like everything else is different, but friendship, we kind of fall into it. We kind of don't, and I don't have to be here. I have like no contractual obligation. So, you know, so to some degree we do want that kind of relationship to offer a sense of ease to our lives. So I get that.

But there needs to be some intention as well. And by that I mean this, there's research where they were trying to find how many friends we can have and how many social connections we can maintain. Oh, I'm curious. And they found that our brains can only cognitively really handle like 150 social connections. So if you think about that like a large circle

and you think about smaller and smaller like concentric circles inside of that. It represents smaller and smaller numbers, but the degree of closeness goes up. So in that smallest circle, you have room for three to five super close, ultra close relationships. The reason I bring this up is because

when you start to get intentional about like, okay, do I have time for friends? I don't know. If you're an extrovert trying to get coffee with 15 people, you are going to feel like I don't have time. I feel overextended because you're trying to do all the things with too many people and your concern is going wide instead of going deep. So at some point, if you're feeling overwhelmed, you're like, I don't have time to be with

all these friends. Who are your three to five? Who are your three to five? And everybody else, maybe I'll catch you like in a group setting or maybe I'll get, but who are my three to five? Cause it helps me to concentrate my time and it gives me more direction for how to spend my hours, which is a limited resource. You know? And for the person who's like, Oh gosh, I don't know if I want to spend time with them. I would question you, do you like the people you hang out with? Because if it feels like a chore every time,

like, oh, I got to spend time with friends. I'm curious about why you would feel that way. Now, I'm an extrovert and there are times that I'm like, oh my God, I need a minute. You know, I get it. But if generally when I think of friendship, I become tired instead of energized, who are you hanging out with? And what are y'all doing when you're together? Generally when I think of friendship, I become tired instead of energized.

Who are you hanging out with? And what are y'all doing when you're together? Because it might be an issue of you're hanging with the wrong people and y'all are engaging in things you don't want to do, you don't enjoy. So that could maybe offer a starting point. Do you think it's important for the person that you date to like your friends? Do you think that's crucial or do you think that's like an added bonus? Like what, what should we be striving for there?

Okay. So in a perfect world, yes. Like your boo thinks your friends are like just amazing. Yeah. Right. And there actually is research that shows that couples who have an overlap, a friendship overlap, meaning they share some friends, are happier couples. So I know some people argue like, oh, they don't have to like him and our friends should be separate. And I get that, but in reality, if we're all kind of combining our lives,

it helps if they kind of enjoy each other. Yeah, but the reality is that partner might not be a big fan of your friend or maybe he's like, oh, she talks too much. Or like, she's always got drama. And I think some of that's normal. I think what worries me is when you feel like you have to choose between them or he's trying to make you see that they're not worth your time.

And they're trying to make you see that he's... Then that's when we have like some tension and that can be really problematic, but you can't have an expectation that your partner be in love with your girlfriends. Sometimes it doesn't happen. But as long as we can have some kind of harmony and one group's not trying to get me to terminate the other, then we're good.

But in an ideal world and according to the research, it helps when you can all be friends. Yes. Yeah. Talk to me about how to take a friendship that's maybe pretty good, pretty deep, and take it to the next level. Like, really, I don't know, I think it can be challenging or I think some people even cringe at the idea of like taking a friendship and making it deeper. How do you do that?

Okay, I love this question so freaking much. And I think it's because, you know, people like the number one question I get is, you know, how do I make friends, which makes sense. Yeah. And typically it comes to some kind of qualifier, like how do I make friends as a new mom or as a woman in a new city? I get all that. But at some point you're collecting them.

You know, remember what we said earlier about that research thing that quality relationships are what make us happy and physically healthy. So it's one thing to have a lot of girls on the roster. It's another to have those all be superficial relationships. So how do we develop the skill of like, okay, if I wanted to advance this, what do I say? What do I do? So, okay. So three things. There is a concept known as frintimacy by an OG friendship expert, Shasta Nelson, and she argues that you need three things to create depth, positivity, consistency, and vulnerability.

So positivity, there's research that shows that successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of five to one. So for every one negative interaction we have, we need to have five positives to offset that. But a lot of us get into friendships or befriend people who like it's negative and it's chronic complaining and all that. That's fine to some degree,

but how often are we doing that? So one way to create depth is to find more like joy in the friendship so that we're not just bonding over the negative, okay? The second thing is consistency. You cannot get away from having to spend time together the friendship so that we're not just bonding over the negative. The second thing is consistency. You cannot get away from having to spend time together to deepen the friendship. I'm sorry. And I stand by that and people are trying to find hacks and get around and be like,

oh, I just need like one coffee date every other month. And that's cool. But the research finds that it takes 34 hours to take somebody from an acquaintance to a friend. So I always joke like if you had like a little timer on your head, you know, would you be like, oh, okay, we need eight more hours. How would you become more intentional if you knew, okay, it's going to take 34 hours. No one's saying that has to happen in two weeks. Maybe over five months time, what's the rush? But how am I sitting down and being like, okay, she's so cool. I want to get to know her. What am I actively doing to spend time with you

to uncover more things about you, who you are, your style, your values? I gotta spend time together. I can't just like read your Insta bio. Like, I need to know you. And then finally, I mean, we hear this all the time, but vulnerability, you wanna get deeper and know her better, you're gonna have to be vulnerable.

And the one thing I will say here, because people are like, yes, vulnerability. I want to correct something really quick, which, okay. Vulnerability does not just mean blab about all your business. Okay. If you are oversharing in a compulsive way, it is not vulnerability because vulnerability by definition means you're taking a risk of rejection. Meaning you say to yourself, oh, this might not go well. She might reject me for it, but I'm going to do it.

I'm going to put myself out there. So if in our first conversation, I'm telling you about my hygiene and my sex life, my money troubles, my mental health, my addictions and my trauma, it is not a risk for me. Because I enjoy talking about it. And I know some people might- Interesting. If I enjoy talking about all the quote unquote

traditionally heavy things, it is not being vulnerable because I don't feel any risk. I like going into those things. Vulnerability is when it feels really risky. You have to do that with people you wanna get deeper with. So vulnerability might look like you and I go on a coffee date and I'm driving away thinking like, okay, she's really cool. Let's do that again. But I'm not going to ask her because like, what

if that looks clingy? No. Okay. I'm going to ask her that's vulnerable. I see. For me to say, Hey, do you want to get together again? Is vulnerable. Now sharing about, you know, traumas and things like that can be vulnerable too. Absolutely. You know, but if you were taking certain risks, putting yourself out there and opening up, you know, it might be risky, but you're doing it for the sake to be more known and to be deeper in their relationship. That is a good thing. And the last thing I'll say is there's something known as the beautiful mess effect. And it's this idea that we tend to like people more after they've been vulnerable.

Yeah. So lean into that if your goal is to create more depth with existing friends. Yeah. I mean, I've never experienced like a person being vulnerable with me and me afterward like them less. It's very humanizing and it's very endearing. I agree. It's so, that's huge.

Also, I think I'm somebody who over shares. But not, I don't think it's in like a crazy way, but I'm also, I'm someone who can talk about anything and it's very hard for me to be in a weird way vulnerable because I'm not uncomfortable by talking about various things that are considered deep. Like if somebody asks me a question about something deep it's like I don't care I'll answer that. Yeah. Like I just it's so for me being vulnerable is like

going and asking about like I'm I don't like asking to hang out first. I always make people come to me. But that's not very that's where it is. So that's you just spoke to me right there because that's so true. How much should we be going out in you know sort of chasing after friendship Versus how much should we sort of wait for it to come to us? I mean, I think it's sort of a similar thing to you know, I don't chase I attract but that's sort of confusing like there's a lot to that where it's like

attract, but that's sort of confusing. Like there's a lot to that where it's like, you do kind of have to chase after things a little bit. The whole I don't chase, I attract is a really cute phrase for a tote bag, I think. Totally. And I totally get that. Like the whole, like, I think at the heart of that is like to pursue things so much that you're like

losing a sense of self. But you totally get it. But we have got to get comfortable expressing platonic desire. If I'm like, man, Emma's cool. I'm just gonna head around and see if she wants to get together or I'm gonna send her a message that I think she thinks is funny.

I'm gonna let her know. I'm gonna let her know I enjoy her and I'd love to spend more time with her company. And I do think that makes a lot of people cringe. The idea of having your desire be so seen and naked feels very vulnerable. But if I want active friendships, I have to be active. So, you know, to the point of like, what's too much of pursuing this and that, I think that you have to, this sounds very like woo woo, and this is not traditionally

me, but you know, I always say you have to embody the identity of being a connector. It can't just be something you do. It has to be who you are. And if you say to yourself, Hey, I'm a connector, like that's who I am. Then naturally when you initiate texts with people or somebody crossed your to be who you are. And if you say to yourself, Hey, I'm a connector. Like that's who I am. Then naturally when you initiate texts with people or somebody crossed your mind, so you send her a message or you want to hang out with somebody. So you ask them, there's power

in that as opposed to the passive reactiveness of like, well, if they reach out to me, then I want, what is that? Like to some degree, I have certain authority of my own friendships. If I like you, I'm like, Oh my God, we should totally get together. Now don't be foolish. If I've asked multiple times and somehow this person's always busy and they never offer an alternative, Hey, I'm busy on Saturday, but Hey, can we do Tuesday? If I'm getting all the signs and cues that this person is not wanting to invest the same way.

I take that information and I use that as the data I need to know how to better direct my efforts. And so it is a balance of pursuing and boldly claiming what you want and who you enjoy, but also wisely discerning who's reciprocating and where that investment would be best returned. That's huge. Yeah. I feel like I'm ready to go out and make some fucking friends this weekend, baby. Yes.

I'm gonna actually, or maybe I'm just gonna deepen. No, I might just deepen my existing. I'm, we're good on new one. No, maybe, you never know. That was so incredibly helpful. I feel like my brain is filled with so much knowledge. Thank you for everything. I'm so glad. I'm so glad, yeah. That was so incredibly helpful. I feel like my brain is filled with so much knowledge. Thank you for everything. I'm so glad.

I'm so glad, yeah. That was amazing. Thank you for asking such thoughtful questions. Thank you so much. And sharing about yourself. I think is, I mean, that's what, you know. I love making it about me. I really do.