anything goes with emma chamberlain - revenge, a talk with emma

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

revenge has been on my mind because i recently was wronged by someone. not in a way that is blatantly, obviously evil. but i do believe that to be human is to at times crave revenge. and look, this doesn't make me look like an angel here, i don’t like saying that out loud. but today i want to talk about revenge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we're talking about revenge. Yeah, we're talking about revenge. Revenge has been on my mind recently because I recently was wronged by someone. Now I wasn't wronged by someone in a way that is blatantly, obviously evil, right? Like no one robbed my house, and stole my most precious items, or physically hurt me, or one of my loved ones. I wasn't wronged in some sort of grandiose sort of way. I was wronged in a much more harmless way.

However, I do still believe that I was wronged by someone. And the thing about revenge is that someone doesn't have to burn your house down in attempt to kill you for you to want to seek revenge. I truly do believe that to be human is to at times crave revenge, even when it's not for something that big. Like, you know what I mean? Like someone can just like stop being friends with you in a way that you think was mean. And you can be like, I wanna fucking seek revenge and I wanna fuck up all their future friendships. Revenge isn't always rooted in some sort of major conflict.

The desire for revenge can come in many shapes and many sizes. And right now I would say I'm dealing with like a medium sized craving for revenge. Like I do think that someone wronged me. It is upsetting, however, I'm okay, everyone's okay. Like it's not that deep. But yet I'm finding myself on my daily little jog

when I go for my little jog outside, I'm finding myself fantasizing about getting revenge. And I'm not talking about getting revenge in like a sinister way, doing something fucked up to them, like, I don't know, like coming up with a damaging rumor about them, or I don't know, what else would be like fucked up?

Like sabotaging, uh, like a work opportunity for them or, uh, yeah, like doing something sort of evil like that. I don't fantasize about that kind of revenge. I think it's, it's more about telling the truth about the person. If someone wrongs me, I just want to tell everyone the story. You know, like that's what revenge looks like to me. It's like, I want to tell everyone the story and I want to out them almost warning everybody like, hey, look, this is what type of person this is.

Look what they did. Look at the mistake they made, putting it all out there. That's what revenge almost always tends to look like for me. It's almost like character assassination in a way, but not in a way that's not truthful. You know what I mean? But it's, did you see what I'm saying? So that's what I've been struggling with. And I'm being completely honest with you. Listen, this doesn't make me look like some sort of angel here. Like I'm craving this sort of revenge right now. It's all I think about on my daily run. I don't like saying that out loud.

That doesn't make me sound good. I'd love to tell you that I go on my daily run and I think about super positive glittery, beautiful things. But actually, unfortunately, right now I'm thinking about revenge. Whether you're practicing your morning breath work, waiting for your favorite artists to come on stage or running errands at the perfect pace. Liquid IV powder helps you turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration so you can live a more extraordinary life. Live more with Liquid IV Hydration Multiplier, available in refreshing lemon, lime, passion fruit and

strawberry flavors. Buy a stick in store at Costco, Walmart, Amazon, and other Canadian retailers. Today I want to talk about revenge with you because it's a feeling that we all experience. Some of us experience it more often than others. Some of us experience it more strongly than others. Some people believe in revenge. Some people don't believe in revenge. We all have a very different relationship to revenge. As I've been sort of revengeful recently, I've been asking myself, why the

fuck do I feel this way? Why do I want to seek revenge anyway? Like what part of my human brain makes me want to seek revenge? And the hypothesis that I sort of came up with was when someone hurts you, you want to hurt them back, you want to hurt them back. You want to teach them their lesson. You don't want them to do that to you ever again. And beyond that, you want to do a service to the public, to the world, and teach

that personal lesson so that they don't go out in the world and do that to anyone else. I think there's a part of us that wants to teach people a lesson. We want to make people better. We want to make the world a safer place because that makes all of us feel good. Another hypothesis I had was, and maybe this is just me because I'm such a freak, I crave balance. I seek balance in the world. Something that I feel spiritually inside me, whether it's true or not or whatever, is that the universe as a whole is

balanced. And I don't know, that's a complex belief to hold because like there's also holes in it sometimes. Like and obviously there are exceptions and it's not a perfect philosophy to have, but I think when it comes to revenge, it's like if someone hurts me, I want them to hurt equally as bad because to me that is balanced. That feels good to me. There's something about perfect balance in the world that makes me feel like

comforted for some reason. Very complicated. I don't know. It makes sense in my brain. It probably doesn't make sense in yours. That's fine. I have my own weird way of looking at things and thinking about things, but that was sort of my hypothesis. And then I Googled it and I read an article on psychologytoday.com. and what the article told me was humans crave revenge for a few reasons. Let me read a quote. A powerful driving force for revenge is the belief that acting out the desire for revenge will provide an emotional release. It will help us feel better, which actually makes a lot of sense when I look at my own desires for revenge. Like, I think I find myself so overwhelmed with anger,

feelings of betrayal, feelings of sadness, that I'm like, fuck, and I'm so overwhelmed by those feelings that I'm like, I just need to get rid of them in some way, and then revenge comes to mind. So I think that's a much clearer way of explaining sort of the feeling of satisfaction that we get when we seek revenge. It's like it makes us feel better. Another thing I read was that we may be driven by a sense of rectifying whatever has

caused pain. Sort of like what I was saying about finding balance. We want to make right what was wrong. And one of the most interesting things I found in this article was that part of our desire to seek revenge is to distract ourselves from fully experiencing the pain resulting from the offense. So like when I'm on my run and I'm thinking about how this person wronged me, right? And it's upsetting to me, it's upsetting to me, it's upsetting to me. It's almost weirdly a relief to think about revenge because it's like distracting me from my pain for a moment and it's making me feel like I'm in control.

It's like, oh no, I'm not just ruminating in my brain helpless, I'm actually making a plan. It feels better to me. So this really made sense to me. I was like, yeah, it definitely works. Thinking about revenge definitely is a great distraction and it also makes me feel more productive. So it's naughty in that way. It's very naughty. Another thing I've been thinking about a lot when feeling this sort of desire for revenge recently

is, is it morally right to seek revenge? I think when it comes to revenge, we have to find our own answer. Because I don't think that everyone's going to agree. I feel like there are two approaches when it comes to a revenge philosophy. To start, you have the age-old saying, don't fight fire with fire. The idea being, fighting a fire with more fire just makes the fire bigger. It creates a larger problem, and it harms everyone involved. Instead, using restraint, you should help to put the fire out.

Everyone is better off. So instead of seeking revenge, you should treat that person with extra kindness. Maybe take the time to help them learn from their mistake or cut them out of your life and just move on and let them learn the lesson on their own. Just don't fight fire with fire. Okay, that's one mentality. And then another sort of philosophy is more of the an eye for an eye mentality, which basically is a saying that represents the punishment should be equal to the offense. So if somebody hurt you this bad, you should be able to hurt them this bad.

It's only fair to cause equal suffering to those who have caused suffering. And I do think that both of these sayings, because they're very old sayings, people have talked about this with crime, you know, war. Like I'm obviously not talking about these sayings in those contexts. Like I'm talking about it within the context of revenge, because these two sayings absolutely do apply there and do make sense there. But I'm talking about them on that scale, not on like a crime war scale. That's a completely different conversation. But when it comes to like day-to-day revenge,

where like the law is not involved, it's on a small scale. Okay, so let's stay on that small scale. Those are sort of the two mindsets, philosophies, when it comes to revenge. So it's not like there's this obvious answer. It's not like, oh, it's obvious what's right and what's wrong necessarily,

like depending on your religion, the beliefs of your parents and your family, your life experience, you might have a completely different philosophy on revenge. Like everybody's is different based on a lot of variables. So there's no Googling whether it's right or wrong. There's opinions on it, but you know, I don't think that there's an obvious right or wrong answer

necessarily like on the internet. I will say though, actually, I will say, I think most people are not in support of revenge. Okay. I think most people lean towards believing we shouldn't fight fire with fire. Right. Like I think most people, if they were asked right now which one they would choose, they

would say don't fight fire with fire. However, there's a difference between what people believe and what people actually do. It's too tempting to seek revenge. Actions speak louder than words. Another thing that I looked into was, is revenge at all effective? Is there anything to potentially gain from revenge? What's the effectiveness of revenge? And from the same psychologytoday.com article, I found that while there may be initial satisfaction from revenge, revenge actually perpetuates the pain of the original offense.

So you think you're going in to really heal yourself, right? Like you think this is gonna be a healing experience. I'm gonna come out of this feeling better. And it's sort of an instant gratification, long-term suffering sort of situation, which actually does make sense to me because I think initially you feel that relief and that satisfaction, wow, I made this person hurt.

Now they know how they made me feel. Now they've learned their lesson, blah, blah, blah. And then a month goes by and you start to feel pain about inflicting pain on another human being because even though they did it to you, it still doesn't feel good to do it to other people. So then you're like, oh, fuck, okay, well, that doesn't feel good.

And then on top of that, there's a good chance that they didn't learn their lesson because people rarely learn their lesson So then you're like, oh, fuck, okay, well that doesn't feel good. And then on top of that, there's a good chance that they didn't learn their lesson because people rarely learn their lesson when they've been hurt, you know what I mean? Like if you hurt someone back, that usually doesn't make them learn their lesson, at least in my experience.

I feel like that tends to just make them actually feel even more justified about hurting you. Does that make sense? Like they're like, oh, well, this is a bad person. They hurt me back. So I don't feel bad about hurting them in the first place. I think to make someone regret hurting you, you should be the nicest angel you can possibly be

because then they'll be like, oh my God, that person was always so good to me and I fucked them over. That's so sad. I'm such a bad person. You know, so that reality will set in, and ultimately you'll realize that you haven't looked inward. The article also said, ruminating about or acting on revenge

involves a temporary orientation of our attention outward that competes with and overshadows our turning inward. Yet it is only when we turn inward that we encounter the intense suffering regarding what has happened. Basically, it prevents us from actually addressing the root issue. So there it is.

A month after the revenge occurs, we realize that nothing has changed and we still are faced with the same pain that we had the day before we committed our revenge. You know? I had a really hard time finding any argument for revenge, like this is why you should seek revenge. There was almost no argument for revenge. However, I have seen on the internet over the last few years, different opinions that are not like published on an educational website or like an official website,

like people just saying their personal opinions on the internet about revenge, you know? And I think the conversation in the real world between real people, you know, not like philosophers and whatever. It's that's also a valid conversation that I think is important to pay attention to. And that conversation is much more varied. Like there are some people who really do believe in revenge.

At times revenge can be celebrated. Like if somebody does like a TikTok story time and they're talking about how they got revenge on their ex-husband or something, people can be like, revenge well-served. You know, like I've seen those types of conversations happening on the internet because it's more of a moral free-for-all.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. That's why I still am considering the sort of eye for an eye thing. The conversation that happens on the internet is very influential. Now let's discuss my personal feelings about revenge. You know, it's interesting. I have almost never sought revenge. almost never sought revenge. I have a really hard time thinking of a time when I've actually executed on revenge. I just like, I cannot remember. I mean, maybe when I was in like

elementary school or something, like when I was like six years old and like someone stole my favorite pencil and I found out and then I told the teacher and then told everyone at school, they stole my pencil, they're mean. And I don't know, or I stole their pencil back. Or shit like that used to happen when I was a kid. And I can imagine that a lot of that subconsciously taught me things and impacted the way

I look at revenge today. However, I just can't remember anything. So since I've been more developed in my prefrontal cortex, like I cannot remember ever seeking revenge. I've always been too frightened. And I think that my logical brain has always been able to step in and stop my emotional brain from acting on my craving for revenge. I've struggled with being tempted so many fucking times in my life. I can't even express how many times I've wanted nothing more than revenge.

Like there's been so many times where people have fucked me over, done me so wrong, and I've been like, oh my god, like, I've almost exploded with the desire to fight back, you know? But I've almost never done it, if never. I mean, I'm not going to say never because when I was a kid I probably did, but it was different back then. As an adult, I can't say I ever have. I can't think of a time if I'm wrong

and you're in my life and you know me and I did seek revenge let me know I just can't remember. Again I think it is because my logical brain is like Emma you know better. You know this is wrong. You know this is not how you win in the end. I definitely was raised to be the bigger person. You know, like my parents have always just nailed it into my head. This is how you be the bigger person. This is how you do the right thing. You should never fight fire with fire. Like they have always taken that stance. So throughout my life, as I've come to my parents and been like, this person wronged me

and I wanna do this. They've been like, uh-uh, be the bigger person. And as my dad has always said to me, he's like, their punishment is their life. Anyone who does any fucked up shit to you, treats you like shit, whatever, their punishment is their own life. You don't even have to do anything.

Don't worry, it's okay. You don't need to make them pay because eventually they will pay. His sort of philosophy is like, if you're a bad enough person to do a bad thing, if you're the type of person that will hurt others, there's something wrong with you that is gonna rear its ugly head in one way or another,

or it already is, and it's just not visible to everyone. Like you can't see how it's manifesting in a negative way because you don't know everything about this person's life. They are paying the price. You do not need to be the one to do it. My dad has always said that to me, and that has really stuck with me, and given me the strength, honestly,

to not ever seek revenge. And the thing is that it's gotten easier throughout my life, even though I still struggle with it, do not get me wrong, I still struggle with it, but it's gotten easier because I've now lived long enough to see my dad's philosophy prove itself in my life. I've actually watched that happen. Like I've had people fuck me over.

And in the moment been like, this is so unfair. Like they just get to float on through life. And I'm over here hurting and they're just fine. No one knows what happened. And like, I don't wanna go and turn everyone against that. Like even though that's what I wanna do, I can't do that because it's just like that. Like, even though that's what I want to do, I can't do that because it's just like not fair

and it's not worth my energy and it's kind of evil and blah, blah, blah. And then eventually everyone else figures out that they're not good people. And then they ultimately end up paying a price in one way or another for their bad behavior and for the suffering that they caused me, but also everyone because of the type of people they are, you know?

And then a lot of times eventually everything will work out and they'll learn their lesson. But the beautiful thing about it is that I didn't have to do anything. It all unfolded on its own. And I don't want it to sound like, you know, people who have wronged me in my life are like evil. And even though that's kind of exactly what I'm saying, but I'm being dramatic, I guess. I do ultimately want everyone to have fulfilling lives where they are good people and they treat people well. Like, I really try not to wish anyone pain. But what I'm more saying here is,

there's a desire for people to learn their lesson. And what I've noticed is a lot of times they do, and you don't need to be the one to do it. They'll figure it out eventually. Shit will hit the fan. And you know what? That's actually a great thing. That's a great thing,

but it's great when you're not involved in it. You know what I'm saying? Like you don't need to be involved in it. That only makes your life more complicated and more messy. Stay out of it and trust that they'll figure it out on their own and that no one gets away with anything. And that also includes you and me, okay? So if we do bad stuff,

because we all do every once in a while, we all hurt people sometimes, we all do every once in a while, we all hurt people sometimes, we all say things we don't mean, we all make mistakes, okay? We also don't get away with everything. And that's why it's important for us to realize when we make mistakes and apologize and try to help the people that we've hurt mend their wounds so that they don't find themselves seeking revenge. And you can learn from your mistake as soon as possible and not continue doing bad things until it ultimately explodes in your face. So, you know, I also don't want to make it sound like it's one-sided. Like, we also can be the villain in these situations too.

can be the villain in these situations too. I think it's a really challenging, but rewarding idea to live by that you wanna try to be the bigger person always. Now, are you gonna fail sometimes? Of course, but I think it's a great goal to have to always be the bigger person. And when it comes to conflict and desire for revenge, it can be tempting to seek revenge. But the other option, being the bigger person, is something that

you'll never regret. There's a good chance you'll regret the revenge. It might feel really satisfying in the moment, but being the bigger person, though harder, though delayed gratification, is something that you can always stand behind. You'll never be seen as the villain and you'll never regret it. I have never once in my life regretted being the bigger person ever. I don't know. So I guess my conclusion is revenge. It's probably not the best way to go. It should probably be avoided as much as possible. And that's where I stand on it.

And listen, depending on what side of TikTok you're on or what side of YouTube you're on or what side of Instagram you're on, there might be people on your explore page or on your for you page or on your whatever, telling you that seeking revenge is like baddie vibes. It's like, it's the hot girl thing to do or whatever the fuck.

I just, I cannot stand behind that. I don't think it's worth it. And I think something that we can all work on is when we find ourselves seeking revenge, we have to try to find forgiveness. Now this is something I am still struggling with. Like I can't even give you advice yet. All I know how to do right now in my life is not execute on the revenge I

wish I could execute on because I have a strong enough moral compass in this area to stop myself from doing anything. I know it's not worth it. I've known it's not worth it since I was a kid. I was raised this way, but that doesn't make it easy because I don't know how to get rid of the internal pain. It takes me so long to get rid of the internal pain. And I definitely have a tendency to hold grudges for a while. It's hard for me to forgive at times. That's something I'm still learning.

What's the antidote to revenge? I guess what's the antidote to the desire for revenge? Forgiveness. But that's something I'm still figuring out. So give me like another year and I'll give you my personal guide to forgiveness in like a year or two. Listen, like I'm somebody who is good at handling conflict.

I think responsibly and respectfully, it's something I've worked on for a long time. It's something that I feel proud of. Like it's genuinely something I feel good about. However, however, my own personal battle that only I have to deal with, which is like the desire for revenge, the feelings of anger that follow,

the struggle to forgive after the fact. I might even be nice to the person to their face, but deep down I'm like, livid, you know what I'm saying? That is something that I have not fully figured out yet, is like that time that happens after the conflict, after maybe the separation, like, oh, we broke up, oh, we stopped being friends, oh, we stopped working together.

After that, I'm still left with this fucking anger. I have a really hard time forgiving. I'm the one that ends up suffering from that, right? But it's important to remember, for me, for you, for all of us, revenge is not the answer. And that's all I have for today. Thank you all for listening and hanging out.

Feel free to share with me your opinion on revenge. It's okay if it's different than mine. We're allowed to have different opinions. That is what is so beautiful about the world, is that we can have different opinions. So share with me your thoughts on revenge. Social media is at anything goes. I cannot wait to see what you think.

New episodes of anything goes every Thursday and Sunday. Stream anywhere you get podcasts, video episodes exclusively on Spotify. Find me on social media at Emma Chamberlain and find my coffee company at www.chamberlaincoffee.com or at Chamberlain Coffee on social media. I love you all. I appreciate you all and I will be talking to you very, very soon. Okay, bye.