Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Allison Jones (Award-Winning Casting Director)

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Allison Jones (Freaks and Geeks, The Office, Veep) is an Emmy Award-winning casting director. Allison joins the Armchair Expert to discuss growing up an Irish twin in Massachusetts, her first casting job on Family Ties, and how her love of TV prompted her move to California. Allison and Dax talk about the cast of the Golden Girls actually only being in their 50s, how the highlight of her career was meeting Quincy Jones while casting The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, and why jumping a car over another car is less scary than doing standup comedy. Allison explains the number one mistake actors make in auditions, why McLovin is still the most difficult role she’s ever cast, and how she stays hungry and dialed-in after over 41 years on the job.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard, joined by Lily Padman. Hi.

Per your request, you spearheaded this and I'm so grateful you did. Yeah. She was so delightful. Alison Jones. Alison Jones, she comes up a bunch over the years. She's helped numerous people in their careers. She's a casting extraordinaire. Yep. She's an award-winning casting director. Just, you know, a few of her impossibly long resume. Barbie, Veep, The Office, Freaks and Geeks, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Parks and Rec. She does all Mike stuff.

Basically any impossibly great comedic ensemble where you're like, where did they find all these geniuses? It's almost always gonna be Alison Jones. It is, it's, her track record is so insane. And it goes so far back, I didn't realize that. It was fun to learn about like the early. Golden girls. Yes.

Yeah, really, really cool. And then just a sweetheart. Love her. So please enjoy Alison Jones. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch holiday podcast. Listen as his celebrity guests try to persuade the Grinch that there's more to love about the holiday season.

Follow Tis the Grinch holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. He's an obj. expert. He's an obj. expert. He's an obj. expert. He's an obj. expert. He's an obj. expert. He's an obj. expert.

He's an obj. expert. He'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy.

I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy.

I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I'm a good boy. I met him. For Bad Monkey? No, for New Steve Carell Show. Oh, okay. Look at you, already I'm already in, it's already pasty. Okay, well, I don't want you to be nervous.

Who knew this one was, I did not. I did. That I was feisty? Uh-huh, yeah. I had the original eye for Monica. I was the casting director for Monica. You were? Yes. Okay.

But you first worked for Kristen, or did Dax find you for that? Well, no, sorry, I first worked for them as a nanny. you first worked for Kristin. I did. Or did Dax find you for that? Well, no, sorry. I first worked for them as a nanny. So I worked for both of them originally. Maybe I didn't know that a while ago. And she was in our friendship group,

but kind of a newer member. Periphery. Yeah, and I said, that gal's really smart. Like she's a very smart, interesting person. Every time I talk to her, we argue, and she's a worthy adversary. Then she started babysitting, and then full-time nanny. Then started working with Kristen.

Then became Kristen's writer, producer, everything. It was before Good Place. No, because House of Lies. It was before, because House of Lies, as House of Lies was ending, kind of, is when I started taking on more stuff. Suffice to say, Kristen was entirely dependent on Monica, to a degree you can't imagine.

And then we started this, and then it was accidentally very successful. And then I had to say, I'm going to have to steal her full time. And she of course was generous. But to be like an on mic person, an on camera person, I asked him if the audio could be broken today, but the fact that you film this is scary.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah that you film this is scary. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The camera stuff is new for all of us actually here, but you forget. Yeah, the first two episodes we were a little... Bill was one of the early ones. He might have been the one that kind of broke it where I was like, okay, I'm comfortable here, I like this. I can pretend this is my living room.

But Allison, this is a great first question. So you have spent the last, I don't know how many years since 82. Are we starting? Oh yeah, we're always rolling. We call it ABR, always recording. Let me get this coffee. Okay.

Oh God, okay. Okay, this is wonderful. You're so sweet. You've spent from 82 to 2024, so that's 42 years of watching humans walk into a room with a ton of anxiety, maybe the peak anxiety they'll have. 83, thank you. 83, okay, okay.

One less year than that. Wasn't Family Ties 82? But I came in season two. That makes sense, 41 years. Yeah. Of watching people come in nervous. And I guess maybe the lay person would assume that would inoculate you to nervousness,

like you would somehow, no. The higher up the food chain you go in terms of auditioning, I get as nervous as the actor does. And when it's like a final audition, you'll hear my voice quiver like you hear it quivering now. Oh really? Oh gosh. Just cause you care, obviously.

Probably, and I want to get the job done too, and I want them to do a good job. Yeah, what percentage of that nervousness for you when you've gotten to that last layer of the audition process? Yeah. Is you rooting for someone that you are championing versus I really want the people that employed me

to be very happy with where we've gotten? That's a good question. I would say that we always want to do a good job, but also I really want the people I'm bringing in to do a good job and that we pick the right person. My biggest fear is we don't pick the right person. That's a common casting director fear was that they're going to pick the boner in the group

or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a million questions about exactly that coming later. But I want to start in Massachusetts. I have a hard time saying it, but you grew up in a Boston suburb. I did, need a Massachusetts. And what did mom and dad do mom was a housewife? Which is what women were want to do back then and my father was an insurance executive

Very nice childhood kind of predictable a Norman Rockwell painting not that That would have been a few of the neighboring towns like Wellesley But a lovely town and my best friends are still my high school friends. And do you have siblings? Oh no, I know this. You're the second youngest of six. I am, I have five siblings. Boys, girls? Three boys, three girls.

How wonderful of your mother to nail it like that, the ratio. She would let us know that. Was it every other one? No, two boys, two girls, me, and then my younger brother. Was it just chaos in a very fun way? You're such an optimist. Yes, it was chaos. In very fun way? You're such an optimist, yes, it was chaos. In a fun way, mostly, yes.

When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, Boston Mass was filled with huge families, Irish Catholic families, Italian families. Six was very common. Oh wow. Yeah, what about you guys? Can I ask you that? I'm one of three, you're allowed to ask

as many questions as you want. Monica? Two, me and my brother, he's eight years younger than me though. They both have only child syndrome. Yeah, exactly. Two would have been controversial where I grew up, but it was like, two, what happened?

She must have some kind of issue. Yeah, what's going on? And it definitely would have been her. Yeah, of course. All men are virile and very potent. Most of my friends from high school came from very large families, and we would have synchronized brothers and sister ages.

My younger brother was best friends with my best friend's younger brother. Yeah. We can still talk about antics and all that kind of stuff back from the early days. What about dating older siblings, friends? Was that ever an issue that popped up? I would have been terrified.

Okay. Me too. I can say I may have wanted to. Yeah. Sure. The more interesting thing was my two older brothers possibly going after the same. Oh yeah. White high school cheerleader.

Were they Irish twins? They were in fact. And my younger brother and I very close in age, 13 months. Okay, what's the age gap between the oldest and the youngest? The oldest and the youngest would be about 11 years, I think. My mother had three kids, took a little break, and then another three kids. It took like a season, maybe.

I think so. A hiatus, yeah. Did you have fantasies about show business as a kid, or how did this all come to be? No. How did you end up at Pomona College? Well, I applied to a lot of fancy colleges and didn't get in. I wanted to go to school in California

because I would watch shows like The Newlywood Game and The Dating Game and Gidget, which was like, oh my God, that girl gets to surf after school, I can't believe it. So in the 60s and 70s, everything was happening in California. Right, it was like big surf culture. Music, serial killing, free love,

everything was happening in California. So I was like, I gotta go. That's where it's at. And also in those days, you didn't do the regimented thing Free love, everything was happening in California. So I was like, I gotta go. That's where it's at. And also in those days you didn't do the regimented thing of visiting colleges and spending a fortune on SATs and on applications. I just said, I gotta go to California. It's super cool out there.

So my parents wouldn't let me. So I went to University of New Hampshire for a year and then transferred to Pomona College. Somehow they magically let me go. I think back on it, it could have been, it probably fit their budget better to Pomona College. once a month, because we lived kind of out on the sticks, we didn't have a good antenna. I had to go to a friend's house if I wanted to watch Dukes of Hazzard.

But when I was at my dad's, my brother and I, all we did from the second we got up until three in the morning. And where was that? Detroit. Oh, Detroit, okay. Yeah, yeah, and Atlanta. Yeah.

The suburbs. I was the early TV generation. Yeah. For sure. For me, TV, I was obsessed. And now when it's like screen time, that was not a thing. My parents were like, you can watch as much TV

Oh, no, we were in front of the new color TV. We would have called it. Oh, no, we were TV kids What else you can do six exactly ungrateful children and no nannies then those days nannies No, unless you're a Kennedy or something, but no nanny TV shows were the babysitters But for me it was such a fantasy Yeah world like I could go in and I could pretend I was in Full House and the whole thing. Did you have that with TV? Like you were using it as an escape or not really?

It was so new with a novel. I don't know, I just loved it. Movies were not cinema the way it is now either. My parents would bring us to movies. My father brought us to every Peter Sellers movie and Walter Mathau, Jack Lemmon movie that came out. To whom I owe my appreciation of that kind of humor. But I don't know, I never broke it down.

But I would say yes, definitely, and probably still the reason. And also I love, you know, we would beg to stay up to see Johnny Carson's monologue. We'd be in the monologue and we'd see the monologue. Okay, so when you get to Pomona, is this true that at Pomona, you find kind of a comedy geek culture?

They weren't self-aware kind of a comedy geek culture? They weren't self-aware of being a comedy geek culture. There probably is now, that sort of didn't exist at all. They just happen to be the pure, unadulterated, brilliant science major, pre-med major, law major geeks who loved Monty Python and who loved Fire Sign Theater. And it was like, what are they talking about? But those are the first people I met who loved Monty Python and who loved Fire Sign Theatre. And it was like, what are they talking about?

But those are the first people I met that I was really tuned into that comedy. They were beautiful, smart, probably at the time highly unpopular geeks. Now they've come to the fore. Now they run the world. Now they run the world. Yeah, remember Revenge of the Nerds was like

this preposterous scenario where the nerds would defeat the jocks and now the world is... And even then that was like, oh, it was preposterous, but you got to see, you know, Jamie Cromwell laughing. Yes. You know, and Anthony Edwards. That was the first turning point of making geeks in the title of anything. Yeah. So you had a visual arts major there. And what was your goal with that?

Didn't really have one, I just liked it. After Pomona, I worked night shift at a newspaper in Glendora for a year. You're inching your way towards LA. I'm inching my way. For people that don't know, Pomona's like 60 miles out and Glendora's like 35 miles out. And then I went to UCLA Business School,

mostly because my father was a businessman, and I thought, I think I can get a good salary after I go to business school. I truly was clueless. In those days, we did not put the pressure on ourselves that these poor kids do now. I don't have a goal now. I mean, I certainly didn't have a goal then.

So you leave there, how on earth do you end up at Family Ties as a casting director? I have a very good friend named Lydia Woodward from business school. A little core of us were just so not meant to be in the business world. I think we're all there for the same reason, just to get a job.

Buy some time and get a job. Buy some time and get a job, yeah. I was living in California at the time, and I think I only paid $750 a trimester to go to UCLA Business School as a resident. What a bargain. I got my MBA for two years for like three grand. Wow, that is incredible. I totally think that's true, to go to UCLA Business School as a resident. What a bargain.

I totally think that's true, because even when I graduated in 2000, all in was $3,800 a year. It was amazing. As a producing fellow is what we called it then, and I was working in advertising in New York City at the time. My year right after business school, I went to work on Madison Avenue in New York City for an agency called Doyle Dane Birnbach, which was mentioned in Mad Men quite a bit. That's why I love Mad Men so much.

I was the tail end of when Mad Men would have ended, or maybe a few years after Mad Men. People were still smoking and drinking all day long? And they had so much makeup and high heels. It was my first time ever spending much time in New York City. I was not cut out for advertising either, Are you still smoking and drinking all day long? Yeah, you're just following the next thing in front of you. And so I went to AFI, loved it. I've never met people like that before in my life. You're ending up with, oh, that person's uncle is somebody famous in that, anyway.

In the student films, I enjoyed the casting part of it. That's a real job. Your friend is like your guidance counselor. She is my guidance counselor. She's a great friend. She's a very successful writer, producer. But yeah, we hit it off because we both flunked one of our tests together and we were singled out. It's a bonding. It was a total bonding thing. It's like friendships forged in war. Yeah, totally.

Do you remember what about the casting process interested you? I just dug it. We were casting a student film. In those days, AFI had sort of a little sag connection, but not really. about the casting process interested you? I just dug it. We were casting a student film. In those days, AFI had sort of a little sag connection, but not really. We're talking 1982 or 81. But every time I watch a TV show, like I would see somebody on Marcus Welby MD and then I'd see her in a Spearmint Gum commercial. It's like, oh, she's doing a commercial.

How does that work? I didn't know what casting was as a kid, nothing. That's why I think this episode will be so fascinating because you just are presented with this show, you're very far removed from Hollywood. In the best case scenario, you're just buying into the notion, these are real kids in high school in Beverly Hills, 90210.

You're not even considering, oh, that's an actor. And the notion that there's a whole rung of this industry that's in charge of scouting, finding, and getting those people in. Hugely important, especially for the talent. You don't really realize that until you come here and you're like, oh, wow, casting directors and casting is a huge component of this.

Yeah, the first big gate that's being cut. You guys appreciate that, but not many other people do. Yeah, right. Or even know it. I did not. But anyway, I thought the casting process was really cool and creative and required a certain level of discernment and taste and realizing, wow, one actor can completely change a student film versus another actor.

I went to Larry Edmonds or something and got a little catalog of casting directors and I completely changed a student film versus another actor. I went to Larry Edmonds or something and got a little catalog of casting directors and producers and I started typing my letters to casting directors and I think I sent out, you had to put a stamp on the envelope, Melna. And then I think I got two answers. And one woman hired me, Judith Weiner. She was the casting director for Family Ties? Yes, she was. And that was at Sunset Gower, and I remember walking in on the Gower entrance on Sunset Gower and looking to my left, and there was the Hollywood sign. So it was like, wow, this is cool.

I'm again, goal-less, but just like, this is bitchin'. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A word I never heard till I moved to California. Made very popular in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Yes, exactly. Okay, so you start working on that show, and I imagine you're doing a lot of the work that's not picking. in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. doing the pilot of The Cosby Show. Wow.

And we were working on a show called Benson. All at Sunset Gower, which was an amazing old historic studio to work at because even today it looks the same as it did probably in 1925. Literally inside, if you've ever shot anything at Sunset Gower, looks like you're in the 1920s. The old school payroll windows and stuff, it's really, really cool.

And they shot some magnificent old movies there, including The Three Stooges, which was my big comedy influence growing up as a kid with a bunch of brothers. We hit each other all the time and it was all because of that. Yeah, yeah. Very physical comedy. We were joking and not joking.

Yeah, I think it led to a lot of trips to the emergency room that show. I know my brother and I would try that, like, because you go like this and the defense was this, but I was five years younger, so those fingers were longer than this. Yeah, but that was what we worshiped. And people are calling, I'm sure,

and they're pitching people. They're calling. Those days I was learning how to put people on hold and say, hold please, and get back to someone, and my boss would say, don't keep anybody on hold for more than two seconds. So I'd be going back and forth, hold please, hold please, hold please.

It was like, oh my God, there's a big agent on the phone. What do I say to a big agent? So it was a lot of answering phones. It was nowhere near as hectic as it is now. Oh, it's gotten more hectic. Much more hectic. You have tenfold more agents, managers, representatives calling you all the time.

So much so that you can't get your job done. So we've had to pretty much switch to email and texting. But back then, in the early 80s, we were working on a show called Benson. Tim was doing the pilot for the Cosby show. And we were doing a show called Condo and a pilot. So there was a lot of casting sessions to set up. And in those days, you had call the agent, talk to the agent's assistant, give the time,

the place, leave the sides at the Gower gate for the actors to come pick up. In the days, there was no fax. Sides are the lines for people who don't know. So these are the lines for the actors to come pick up. In the days there was no facts. Sides are the lines for people who don't know. So these are the lines for the audition. I assume they're called sides because it's two sides of a playbill or something. I never figured that out. Me either.

We'll find out for the fact check. I think it has to do with one side, two sides of something. Interesting. Now this huge explosion in the amount of managers and agents and whatnot, is it proportional to, because when you were on Bents

and you're casting the Cosby show, there's only three networks. The three networks only have five days of airing and four shows. So you're talking 20, maybe 60 shows are on television. And now we're at, I don't know, hundreds of shows. So do you think it's proportional or has something else happened?

That happened way before we came into streaming. I mean, managers started getting busy on us about 25 years ago, I think. Actors, for some reason, they decided they needed an attorney, they needed a manager, they needed an agent as well. And so I remember sometime in the 90s when suddenly the breakdowns, which is a service that sends to agents the parts that we're casting and then they submit headshots.

And an 18 to 24-year-old female... And that is how they disseminated the casting calls, basically, the parts that we're casting and then they submit headshots. And that is how they disseminated the casting calls basically for every new project that came along. It was breakdown. I remember the first manager I ever heard of was Keith Addis who represented Sting. He never would bother any of us but it was like, oh, what does the manager do? Anyway, so then for some reason, there was just like an onslaught of managers who started to call us. You'd have an agent calling about the same client that a manager would call about.

What are they saying? Like, hey, you should really think about my client, and you're like, yes or no, and then they call back and say, actually, you really should. All the time, and then the manager would call and say, this is the person. Okay, so when you were at Family Ties, I'm going to ask you some juicy questions. Please. Famously, Leonardo Di when you were at Family Ties, I'm gonna ask you some juicy questions.

Please. Famously Leonardo DiCaprio was on Family Ties, right? No, he was on Growing Pains. Growing Pains, like fuck that up. That's sad, you went to ask about an early Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah, I wanna know. Young River Phoenix was.

He was on Family Ties? Maybe that's who I'm thinking of. And Tom Hanks. Oh, and Tom Hanks. And Tom Hanks. Yep. And you already had Michael G. Fox. And this was all my boss, Judith Weiner,

and her associate at the time, Donald DeLine, who's now a big producer. My favorite person in show business. He produced Without a Paddle. Oh, he did, right! What a gentleman! He's hilarious and was just as funny then. Wait, DeLine did the pilot of Family Tones?

He was the associate at the time. Really? I think he was the one who probably turned Judith onto Justine Bateman as being a good one in the group. Because sometimes associates would pre-read the people, which doesn't so much exist anymore. Now you'd call it self-tape as a pre-read. Yeah, I got a question about that.

Anyway, many, many young people came through the Family Ties coffers. Joseph Gordon-Levitt, I think, as a seven-year-old, played a bully with them. Do you guys even know Family Ties? Yes. I grew up watching Family Ties. You didn't.

I did. I don't think you can get it anywhere now. And it's a show that would catch on because of the conservative liberal thing. Yeah, it would. Because Alex B. Keaton was a conservative and the dad was liberal. Whole family was liberal. It was great. And it was Gary David Goldberg's family story, basically.

He was liberal and a hippie and his kids were conservative. I believe so. Oh Oh that is very interesting. You know that was 82 to 87, no 89, so I was 7 till 12. So you loved Alex P. Keaton. I liked Justine Bateman, I liked Alex P. Keaton, then he was in Back to the Future. Who was Skippy? Mark Price. Yes. He literally the definition of the goofy friend next door. A few years later you're on Golden Girls. Yes with Judith we did the pilot. You would be privy to definition of the goofy friend next door a few years later. You're on golden girls Yes with Judith we did the pilot you would be privy to one of the great kind of funny debates now that happens Yeah, golden girls a the golden girls is this enormous thing, right?

Like it's had all these different lives, which is great and I watched it as a kid But again, I was seven to twelve They look like grandmas to me. Now that I'm fifty, or closing in on it, everyone points out, some of the cast members were in their forties or fifties. Astell definitely made herself look like an old granny. So what was the conversation behind closed doors about what age you were going to cast as these grandmothers? It was not even discussed.

The women that were considered were all probably in those days considered elderly, and they were in their 50s. It's the reality of the times. It's not like anyone was kind of- No, it's the reality of the times. Yeah. You still see that from time to time though.

But then it was not even a question. There was just people in their 50s were going to be the elderly people. But Estelle came in to audition for something on Family Ties. I keep everything in my storage units, and I went back to see the way we got to Estelle, and she had auditioned for something on Family Ties. I keep everything in my storage units and I went back to see the way we got to Estelle and she had auditioned for something on Family Ties. I saw the producer session, which I typed

on the Select a Typewriter and then you make copies of it and then you pass it out. She had come in for a part that she did not get, but then about a week later, Judith brought her in for Golden Girls just to pre-read her. We didn't tape or anything. We had to bring them back in person for all the producers, Tony Thomas and Paul Witt.

Susan Harris didn't come to the sessions. Sam Harris' mother. That's right. Wait a minute. Oh, Sam. I'm sorry, what does he do now? Sam Harris has an enormous. Other than the comic who's not that Sam Harris. Right, he became a neurologist.

He has a huge podcast, but he has also famously on Bill Maher all the time, arguing, he got into hot water, arguing Ben Affleck about Islam. He is a very outspoken, provocative, intellectual. Wow. Most people go the other way, by the way. Most people know Sam and I'll say his mother invented

Golden Girl. I knew that was Sam. I think the reason she got into writing was because she had to support Sam. Yes, single mother. Yeah, she said I can do that stuff and she wrote a spec script for one of the shows at the time and then she just got huge.

She created soap and she was a very, very important person, not just female, very important person in comedy. A titan, yeah, and that kind of show. And then she and Paul Witt made the greatest comedies in the 80s and 90s and they had the third floor on Sunset Gower. So by the time we get to 1990, I guess I'm wondering, so you already pointed out something that happens,

which is fascinating. You come in for one thing, you're not right for it. And that's its own thing that actors need to understand. All the time, it's almost the rule, not the exception. It took me directing things and casting people to really fundamentally understand what's going on in the room. I wish I would have started directing,

because it would have taken so much of the pressure off of auditioning, which is like, you're kind of right or you're wrong. You have some range of talent, but. Exactly. What can happen, which is like, you're kind of right or you're wrong. You have some range of talent, but. Exactly. What can happen, which is encouraging, is you as a casting director will go like, well, they're terrible for this role, but they're good.

I want to keep a mental note of that. We're keeping that in our heads. If you start in 83, and by the time we get to Fresh Prince, you had seven years of kind of accumulating people that you've liked. Seeing every movie and every TV show and memorizing every actor. Anytime I'd go to a movie, this was before Internet Movie Database, I have a ton of little notebooks.

I stay at the end and I would write down all the cast. I noted like Roseanne Barr. Her first bit was on Johnny Carson and I wrote Roseanne Carr. And then I wrote Riding Vacuum Cleaner. That was her bit. And then I ended up seeingiding Vacuum Cleaner. So I remember her bit was Riding Vacuum Cleaner. And then I ended up seeing her at the comedy store. Anyway, everything was handwritten those days. So I had tons of writing down everybody. Ellen Duh Something, I didn't think I could spell her name,

but I wrote it down. DeGeneres? Yeah. Oh, this is so funny. Yeah, so I have all kinds of little notebooks. And you don't have a computer, so it's not like you can put all this in a spreadsheet and break it into categories and stuff.

So anytime you have a new project on your hands and you've got 13 rolls to cast, how do you keep track of this huge handwritten stack of paper? I would say that most of the folks I started out with, Sally Steiner and Meg Lieberman and Donald, who started in casting, we just had scraps of paper everywhere.

Okay. Later I would get Time Out New York when that started and I would rip things out about the comedy people that they would talk about. That's how I remembered people like Rory Scovell and Ben Schwartz. I still have their little things ripped out of Time Out New York. Some of these things I think should be in the Smithsonian.

Oh, God, no. Ellen does something? They're all in my storage unit. That's fantastic. I think the Smithsonian has a whole TV thing to it. Yeah, they have Archie Munker's chair. Oh right, then they definitely do. But it was all scrap paper.

Our walls were covered with little thumbtacks with somebody's name. Names. Yeah. Every time you're watching something, you're on the lookout for someone that's talented. Does that ruin scene stuff? Are you too preoccupied?

No, it doesn't ruin it for me, because I still love it, but at those days you had to stay. Sometimes I'd have to see a movie twice because you can love it, but at those days you had to stay. Sometimes I'd have to see a movie twice, because you can't go to IMDB, and I'd have to look at the- And it's going fast.

Yes, and it's going fast. Oh my gosh. And that was my- The lights might not even be on yet. Yes, exactly. So I would have to go sometimes twice, and there's many people who I would bring in the next week and they got a part.

Wow. Wow. Okay, so that's one approach, is you're paying attention to who's in what. Are you also going to comedy clubs? No, all the time that was then you had to do it on your feet. You had to go into the comedy store. When I was working for Judith, she let me do some sort of new, which never really aired late-night comedy show that NBC wanted to put on adjacent or after SNL at the time. Talking 1980s. That was my first flat-out comedy thing. I had to learn comics like I learned

my multiplication tables in the 60s. I went to the comedy store and improv every single night for weeks. I'd park up above the comedy store. I never went to the main room, because those were the acts that everybody knew, Robin Williams, but I would go to the back room and sit there from like eight o'clock to two in the morning

and I would see always like a 19-year-old, 20-year- old Jim Carrey. It was the same line up half the time I went there is like Jim Carrey and then it was Jeff Altman, Damon Wayans who was very young at the time as I recall. I just sat in the back. I had to have a two drink minimum, no comps back then and I was just a casting assistant.

I would sit there and I would sit until the end and usually I think it was Sunday night. I forget when Sam Kinnison would come on at two in the morning and be screaming. Yeah. And then I would leave and go home and do it the next night. I just made a point to do it solid for like two or three weeks so I could learn comics. You had to do the legwork then.

And I have very fond memories of that kind of stuff. Okay, so that's positive because for every Jim Carrey you're also wading through two or three that are pretty rough and people are bombing. Some people are thinking like, oh, I go to a comedy show every night. No, they're also wading through two or three that are pretty rough, and people are bombing. Some people are thinking like, oh, I go to a comedy show every night. And it's more rough. And that was in the days preceding you, maybe not, where the goal of a comic was to get a deal at a network.

Right. First of all, to get a spot on Johnny Carson. Yep. Step one. And to get called to sit on the couch. Second of all, I remember we would also go back and sort of go to the ladies' room, and then the comics were always out back in the hallway smoking and talking about their sets and... God bless the comics, but they're insecure.

And these are now the biggest comics in the world. They're pretty mean, too. The Mark Maron and the biggest stand-ups in the world were all back there at the age of 21. Yes. Yeah, gossipy and mean. Insecure and scared. It is, yeah, based out.

Very few females, they even had just a female knight. That was all you had for the female comics. I think it was the Belly Room. I remember when Whoopi Goldberg first came, it was like, oh my God. Remember Donald Delaney telling me there is this comic, this female who is unbelievable, you should go see her. Her name is Whoopi Goldberg. And I was like, okay, Whoopi, Whoopi.

Okay, Whoopi Goldberg. And you put her in the color purple. I wish. Did you get good at delineating who's gonna work? Cause it's a big leap between standup and acting, and it goes very well for some, and it goes really bad for others. Do you feel like you got good with your thin slicing

or your radar? Was there anything you could tell on stage that was gonna be predictive of whether they could do it or not? For me, the bar was how funny they were. And for example, I did not know how good Jim Carrey would be as an actor, but I brought him in. I did not know how good Dennis Leary would be as an actor.

There's an actor who needs a better career. Yeah, yeah, deserves a better. He's got a good one, but deserves a better, because he's an unbelievably good actor, as most many comics are good dramatically. What is more terrifying and difficult than stand-up comedy? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From covert experiments pushing the boundaries of science, to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week, on redacted, declassified mysteries, we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories,

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you get your podcasts. To listen ad free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with his The Grinch holiday podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting and he's ready to rant against brismas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family

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They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Raden was found dead in a canyon near LA in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood

elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. ["Wonderful Music"] I've said it before, but I'll tell you,

I had a scene in this movie I directed where Kristen and I are in an off-road race car and we've got to drive through a barn door and it's a real barn door we're gonna break through a barn door and on the other side there's ramps that are this wide and then we're gonna jump two cars and I'm directing so I'm actually doing the whole thing and it's dark inside the barn it's gonna be very bright when we crash through the thing and then I got to hit these little ramps and we're sitting in the car right before we're about to go and the stunt coordinator, my friend DeCastro,

goes, how are you doing? I go, I'm good. He goes, how nervous are you? And I go, if standup is a 10, I'm at a four. And that's a real comp for me. Jumping a car over other cars is like 40% as scary as standup. Yes, wow, I have always admired standups.

Also because their hearts are on their sleeves, no matter how tough their act is or how tough and edgy their jokes are. Every new line they're scared about. It's just you. And when it goes bad and you know you have another 18 minutes, there's really nothing like it. Mm-hmm.

I admire them greatly. I also sort of relate to their insecurity and all that kind of stuff. Most people who gravitate to Hollywood, I think, have a lot of insecurity. Yeah, looking for a lot of insecurity. Yeah, totally. Yeah, looking for a lot of approval. Because the one thing I find about Hollywood

and kind of Los Angeles in general is it's very accepting of all the freaks, and I like that. Yeah, big time. That's very true. You might think it's gotta be a ton of a bunch of people who really thought they were awesome. Completely not the way it is.

No. Yeah. It's counterintuitive. Completely the opposite. Okay, so by the time you get to Fresh Prince, my question about that is, the show starts with Will Smith? Yes, it started with Will Smith and the late, great Quincy Jones. I mean, the highlight of my career

was getting to meet Quincy Jones. Right, because he was a producer of that, right? He was the producer and the creator. I think he grabbed Will and said, what can we do? And my partner in crime, we cast the show together, Sally Steiner, we drove up to Quincy Jones' house, I think it was Mulholland,

but we were so starstruck. Oh, absolutely. I was always starstruck, and I still am starstruck. You are still. Oh, come on. I've only met you once on an audition years ago, and you don't remember, I'm sure, but you came in. I want to hear.

Pitched from Endeavor as the guy from Punk'd. Sure. And those are the days where it was like, you sort of didn't do that if you were a side guy from Punk'd. And those are the days where it was like, you sort of didn't do that if you were a sidekick on Punk'd. Now everybody and their brother from a TikTok video wants to be seen. You had much longer hair. and Mitch Hurwitz had asked me to do the pilot of Arrested Development. And I couldn't do two pilots at once, it was too torture.

So I couldn't do the pilot. Deb Borilski did the pilot. Many podcasts name me as the person who did the pilot. It was FX, the early days of those places like FX. And it was called Dix, D-I-C-K-S. And I just remember thinking Dax, D-A-X, is coming for Dix. That's a lot, yeah. And visual learning. But you came in and you were very good.

And I remember thinking, oh wow, this guy from Punk was good. I find that so hard to believe. This is exciting. I'm blown away that you would remember that. Of course, I remember specifically the agent pitching you when it was Endeavor. Greg Siegel it would have been. Yes, he would have said the guy from Punk, which of specifically the agent pitching you when it was Endeavor. Greg Siegel it would have been.

Yes, he would have said the guy from Ponged, which of course I didn't know what it was. Right, of course. But I had known Ashton Kutcher because there's all these stories that you could connect everybody to everything when you start out. Yeah.

I had met him on a wonderful pilot called Advances in Chemistry that the very brilliant Richie Rosenstock did again ahead of its time. But he came in to audition for the Handsome Kid, and he didn't get it, because, God bless him at the time, not an actor. He was only 20 or 19. And then Meg Lieberman brought him in for that 70s show,

and the rest is history. Within like two days. I was going to say, I think his story is, and we're very good friends. Oh, you are? That's so cool. Oh, yeah. How do I not know that? We stayed very, very close. You want to talk about casting, so I didn't make it through any of the rounds

at MTV for punk. I was in a discarded pile of tapes that didn't get advanced to the producers and Kutcher had seen everyone they had basically circled and he's like, no one has the vibe. Let me see the people that were rejected. And I was one of the people rejected. So my entire career.

Ashton had done that. No, he hadn't done that. He had done 70 show. He was like, and he had done Just Married, so he was like newly a movie star. He was kind of hot at the time. Oh enormous. He was definitely physically hot at the time.

He also was in the zeitgeist. Breathtaking. So he dug me out and so, yeah my gratitude for him is off the charts. But what I wanted to own my baggage with casting directors. You do? I do, I'll tell you why. It's all my insecurity, which was,

I was auditioning for nine years in commercials and I couldn't get them. I just couldn't book anything. I booked two in nine years. I came to view casting directors as people who didn't get me. I'm like, they don't get me. I can't get through this layer to anybody.

And then the time that I finally did break through, it turned out, if we believe Ashton, I still hadn't gotten through the casting director. So I just had it in my mind, they don't like me, but I have to believe hopefully these creators might like me. Yeah. That's in everybody's head about everything.

Yes, I was so insecure. I've been almost a decade. We can eliminate that in the world. I know, it's so true. I just had it in my mind, because I was so insecure that for whatever reason, they don't like me. And then maybe you were also going in

and because you thought they didn't like you, you might have been being mean. I don't think I was stupid enough to be mean. Not mean, but you might not have been warm. I don't think I was dumb enough to not be warm. I just really had it in my head. Yeah, so did you have a chip on your shoulder, would you say?

Yeah, I felt like casting directors knew people I was friends with, and no one really knew me, and I was so insecure. And so I got it in my mind, I've got to get to the other people. Yeah, right. I have to go past these people. Somehow I got to jump over this gate that's in front of me and get to those people, because again, when I finally got hired on a TV show,

it was from the creator of the show. I got such limited data, and I'm telling this huge story based on this very limited data, and I finally got hired on a TV show, it was from the creator of the show. Oh yeah. I got such limited data and I'm telling this huge story based on this very limited data and I'm completely wrong. And then I come to find out like, you're saying you liked me, which is- Oh yeah, I was like, wow, this kid from Punkty's really actually a good actor.

That's so funny. I had the opposite feeling towards casting. Well, we talk about them all the time, like you know the names of so many casting directors. Like I knew about you way before I moved to LA. I was like, oh my God, she's... That is shocking to me. She's the person, and if I could get an audition,

like even just getting an audition with, I remember when it happened, and I was like, oh, this is the craziest day of my life. I was so excited. But to me, casting directors were almost like teachers. The teacher I wanted the approval from, the person who was going to give me an A plus. And obviously I wanted the job,

but I really wanted the casting director to like me so much. Which I think backfired a lot. Because then I wasn't just me. In commercials, this is probably bad to say, I did really well in commercials because I didn't care that much. I just went in and did it, and then lo and behold you do pretty well

when you don't overthink or you can just be you. Yeah, I had that, I was like, cast your actress, please love me. She's a good actress though. Oh yes, I've hired her as an actress. I put her in Chips and I put her in the only commercial I ever directed. I love Chips.

But it can't do it. Oh God bless you. Okay. Nobody did. Curb your enthusiasm, 99. You were still on to the end. I started in season three. Jeff Garland is a good and wonderful friend.

He brought me on in season three. And then I was on for many, many seasons, except for a couple seasons where I wasn't available. But were you there when Monica got to do Curb Your Enthusiasm? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very sweet. So jealous. You would have had to play yourself on Curb.

Yeah, exactly. I don't think I was famous enough to play myself and then I was too famous to play. Now you're too famous, you can't not play yourself. Now the show's over. Yeah, I got in the sweet spot right before it ended too. But I did a lot of my self-education then too because I tried to know every improv person in the universe

because I was lucky enough to be doing The Office, Curb and Arrested Development starting with season two. If you go back and watch then you'll see the same season everybody does Curb, everybody is arrested, all the same people. That was when, from my own history in comedy, nobody got improv actors, nobody brought them into the fore until it was like Judd Apatow and Paul Feige. For me it was all casting sitcom pilots and it was always tough. Tough to find anybody funny, tough to find anybody who can pull off the sitcom

and at those days tough to find anybody great looking enough for a network to approve them. Right, you had to have a lot of things. Yeah, you did have to have a lot of things. So that was when Judd and Adam McKay and Paul Feig, they started appreciating the fact that most improv actors or comedians who then got into, improv was not in the four of comedy either when I started.

Again, it was all stand-up comics. Improv was still Second City and it was groundlings, which were sort of character oriented. Yeah, you're right. There was this huge talent pool that no one was really looking at. No one until sort of Second City started to move. I was trying to pluck people out of Second City

in the early 90s. I remember going there to see Second City the first time when we were looking for Carlton on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Oh, no kidding. And they said, can we just go to Chicago and look for some of these kids? I remember going there to see Second City the first time when we were looking for Carlton on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. And they said, can we just go to Chicago and look for some of these kids? Because I don't know. And so I went to Second City for the first time comedy. But when I started to do a lot of comedy shows and bringing a lot of the improv comedy

was when The State had started and when Kids in the Hall had started. That stuff all came through basically what was then called The Comedy Channel, I think. Was Comedy Central, but at the time it was called something else. The Comedy Network. There was a great little boom

because it was Kids in the Hall and then The State and then Ben Stiller had a sketch show and then you had Mr. Show. He started it all as well. Yes, he's the first one in. I mean, Ben Stiller, very important in comedy. And I think they owe the biggest debt to Mr. Show. Yeah.

To Bob Odenkirk and David Cross, which would air at midnight on HBO. A whole new genre. Yes. Yeah, we had Jack Black on, and I was telling him, you know, I used to go to the live tapings of that show, and it seemed like just the most impenetrable. The pastor was down the street.

Oh, you did? He did. Was he in I Die? Yes. He's hard to miss. I had cast him in a couple of day player roles when he was first starting out, and he was very singular, Jack Black, and he could deliver one line and you'd remember it.

Yes. And he was with the Gage Group very early on in his career. In every casting office, you have people that you remember and keep bringing in and bringing in until they get the part that really propels them into a long career. So that was going to be one of my questions. Do you get a swell of pride when you see like a crisp press? I do.

You have to. Yeah, yeah. You cast Parks and Rack. Yes. If it's not obvious, you're the only casting director we've ever invited in. Oh, thank you. And largely because I have someone who didn't learn about casting directors like Monica did I?

Started noticing I'm like this VEEP cast is impossible who on earth Figured out that all these people were this level of brilliance And that's why I think VEEP when I was like, oh, it's you you're but and then I was like, oh and right and the other Impossible cast would have been Parks and Rec. Wow, you did that. And you've had several of those. It's just impossible, the level of collective talent and unknown, and I realize, oh, you're a big, big,

big piece of that. It's kind of like for me when I realize, oh, John Bryan, the composer, might have as much to do with the Paul Thomas Anderson movies that I like, because Eternal Sunshine I also like oh, John Bryan, the composer, might have as much to do with the Paul Thomas Anderson movies that I like, because Eternal Sunshine I also like in the same way, and he has composed both. That's like a revelation. Oh, maybe I love John Bryan.

Yeah, when all of your favorite comedies, you look and it's you who's casted, and like, wait a minute, yeah, I think this might be about her. The music connection is interesting, though. I do love certain soundtracks, starting with Alfred Hitchcock movies, and they are what connect your fandom, I think, a lot of the time.

That's a great point. In features, casting directors always get credited, it seems, the card right after the music, the music editor. And I love that. Okay, so you do, you get a swell of pride when Chris Pratt. Oh, God, yes. And I bore people with all the stories

I'm boring you with now. No, I love it. Oh, it's fantastic. I guess here's my question, because Chris and I were at with all the stories I'm boring you with now. No, I love it. It's been fantastic. I guess here's my question, because Kristen and I were at a hotel once, and he and Annie were there, and we ended up hanging out for three days, and I'm like, this guy's so radical.

He's so real. He's from Oregon. He was a wrestler. He's a hunter. And he's funny. He needs to show his funny side again. I know. I've been thinking that a lot lately. And Jack Black needs to show his dramatic side. We have all these thoughts casting people. We Jack Black needs to show his dramatic side.

We have all these thoughts casting people. We talk about this all the time. Yeah. I bet. What does Kristen need to do? Keep on keeping on? She's doing pretty good. No, keep on keeping on, but she would be great in a down and dirty drama.

Okay. Wouldn't she want to? I would, she would. She's a good dramatic actress. She would, and then I always talk her out of it. Do you really? Why? I don't talk her out of it. I remind her of what life she wants,

which is she wants to be at home seeing her kids. She does not want to be on location. She wants manageable hours. She wants to know she can drive the kids to the school she wants to. So going away to, you know, Georgia for four months is a down and dirty drama. Forget the MCU universe for Kristen.

She should be, do a real movie, an indie movie or something. Queen Pins was great for her. Uh-huh, you cast that? I did. We love Kirby. Kirby's the best. Kirby's a diamond. Yeah, Kirby we've hired forever. The richest talent pool is comedy. Yeah. Frankly. My argument, and you would I think agree because you've directed now, is so many drama actors, some of them are brilliant at comedy. Going the other way, comedy to drama is much more frequent and much more a surprise.

Yes. Sasha Baron Cohen is very good in Disclaimer. Yes. Yeah, I think it's because comedy requires you to be paying attention. It requires a lot of paying. I mean, and a lot of experience and a lot of beating yourself up and a lot of stuff to draw from. I'm going to add, and people will be mad about this,

comedy is straight up harder than drama. Beyond straight up harder than drama. There's so many tools that can be employed in a drama to help you. You could have no look on your face and do the perfect push in and the right song. People think you're a genius. Yeah.

Exactly. There's no cheating a joke. You can't cheat a laugh. You can put a fart noise in or something, but in general, it works or it doesn't work. There's no manipulating it. You can't put the perfect song in all of a joke. You can't cheat a laugh. You can put a fart noise in or something, but in general, it works or it doesn't work. There's no manipulating it. You can't put the perfect song in all of a sudden. It's funny.

No, of course not. Though they try. They do try, and it's generally generic. Okay, can you think of some people that you really went to the mat over, that didn't get it, that then turned out to be huge? Do you feel like you've got some great vindicated stories? You should have a group casting director thing

because people would be shocked at how many people slonked first and then got the big, it's tenacity, tenacity, tenacity. It used to be in pilot season, the people who didn't get the roles, the next season would get the roles, and the next season, the people who didn't even get as far as the network would get the roles.

That's good to know. It's a cycle though, it is tenacity. Can you think of someone that you were like, you just battled and lost? Oh yeah, battled for Elizabeth Banks to get many things. It was mostly like women whose studios didn't think were pretty enough, like Elizabeth Banks. We finally got her in.

That's like one year old. Elizabeth Banks isn't pretty enough. Yeah, I know. Like what the fuck? Yeah, or Amy Adams. Oh God. Or Funny Enough. Both by the way, wickedly funny. Elizabeth does a lot of comed Yeah, or Amy Adams. Oh, God. Or Funny Enough. Both, by the way, wickedly funny.

Elizabeth does a lot of comedies, but Amy needs to get back to some good comedy because she's wickedly funny. She needs to just have some fun maybe. Yeah. For a few months. I'm sure she would like to. Comedy is a little bit in a coma now these days.

Yeah. It's not a great time. So not many opportunities. Brie Larson is who I was going to mention. Oh! Was never, I mean, this is a gorgeous, talented girl. And she was never good enough for a studio to approve her. They just didn't think she was the leading lady.

And then, boom, an Academy Award later and all kinds of stuff. Yeah, that I do love. It would be so hard for me for them to be passing on Brie Larson and Elizabeth Banks and Amy Adams. I would be like, guys, why are you doing this? Wait a minute, you're approving Seth Rogen and you're passing on these people. Exactly. I would be saying it. Yeah, you've doing this? Wait a minute, you're approving Seth Rogen and you're passing on these people. Exactly, I would be saying it.

Yeah, you've navigated lots of different eras in this business. Oh, we say it all the time. So if you're working with a director, they're casting their third movie or show and you've cast hundreds, how do you manage not saying like, you're wrong? You're gonna have to trust me.

This is my expertise. I try never to go there because once I said you're wrong, you're gonna have to trust me. This is my expertise. I try never to go there, because once I said you're wrong to somebody and I got screamed at. Don't you tell me I am wrong. Uh-huh, you deal with a lot of egos, yeah. Yeah, you do. Don't you ever say I'm wrong and I'm not wrong. I've never been wrong.

And by the way, he was dead wrong. Yeah, exactly. And that actor became a huge star. Yeah. And you deserve to have the ego. Your resume. Casting directors fight, fight, fight so much for actors. I brought this up recently.

I wish actors could appreciate how much we do fight for them. I gotta tell you this, this is the truth. Generally I research people, and then in the process of researching them, there's some curiosities that kind of surface. I've never sat down and just had questions like I have for you. No, please.

Have you developed a radar for who's gonna be problematic? Like they might be genius level in the room, but do you think you've gotten good at going, yeah, this person's talented, but it's not gonna be worth the work? You can tell when certain people are annoying in the room when they're auditioning that they're maybe a little rough on a director.

Directors can tell that too. Somebody will read and ask questions or ask the wrong questions. The way you can read people in general, even though somebody who waits on you at McDonald's is like that little prick. Yeah, yeah, right, right. I bet she's a great mom.

Exactly, the way you can read people, it's just a people reading thing. And yes, I do believe I have instincts for that. Though in terms of behavior in the past, I don't ever repeat it unless I've seen it or it's been on a movie that I've worked on. Like somebody is saying, don't ever hire that actor, they're difficult.

I want to make sure it's accurate. So many actors get a bad rap because they didn't get on with the director or a producer and it's actually the director who is the problem. It happens so much to women. Oh, is that true? So more often you'll hear, don't work with her or them.

This woman is difficult and come on. I know. And then you hear the director's name. It's like, come on. Right. Women still do not have a leg up. What pisses you off the most in the casting process? I'll never work again.

All the casting executives, the levels of people that we have to go through. Right. And the levels of people that we have to CC and update. And you're talking about in a studio. I'm talking about in a studio or film, television. There's so many levels and it really throws me off my game. And this has been for decades, frankly.

In casting, you need, like what we're doing now, we're tracing people back for 30 years. We need to do that in our brains. And if you're constantly concerned, as I am, about, oh my God, I forgot to put a name on a list. Oh my God, this person thought of this person. Oh my God, this person's cousin wants to be seen. Oh my God, this person's manager asked me to see this person.

You have absolutely the shortest synapses you could possibly have. You lose that long-term thinking of who is this person I loved in that show and I can't remember who it was. That's what I want to spend my brain power on. And we are exhausted by the end of the day. And that is the only time we have to do it. It's so much more difficult now to actually be creative.

Yeah. Okay, what are your thoughts about improvising in an audition? Only if you know it's okay. Do a little bit of research. People see me and they think I can improvise, but I will say, okay, this one, don't improvise. Oh yeah, that's good. You know, because some actors will do it. All these beautiful comics. I will say, okay, this one, don't improvise.

You know, because some actors will do it. All these beautiful comics, most of the time they come up with funnier stuff than is on the page. People like Jed Apatow and Paul Feig and Mitch Hurwitz and Adam McKay, they appreciate that. They want that, Larry David wants that. But I will warn them before coming in or tell their agent, and I pray to God

the agent tells the manager who tells the assistant who tells the assistant who tells the assistant who tells the assistant to the actor to the actor, don't improv. Yeah. Right. There is a line between comedy people who want to hear every line they write and comedy people who don't care. And they say, you can't make a wrong step.

Just do whatever you want. So you should ask. Okay. Please ask. Otherwise they'll think you can't. Do the thing. Right. Which maybe I can ask. Okay. Please ask. Okay. Otherwise they'll think you can't ask. Do the thing. Right. Which maybe I can't. No. I've kind of gone like this.

And again, I'm not giving this advice to any actor at all. I don't think this is a good strategy. Here's what I told myself. At some point, I'm like, I'm better if I can make this thing a little bit mine. I'll be different. It might anger you, but I'll be memorable. I've got to be me,

cause this is who you're gonna deal with. So actually it's a favor for all of us if we find out now. There are other people that are much better at this, if that's what you want than I am. Here's the thing I can do well. Maybe that'll appeal to you or not. Like at some point I feel like, maybe it was just an attempt to get some control

over the experience, which feels very powerless. I'm like, I'm gonna give you what I am, and maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll hate it. Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah! I do, depending. If you're in there for Judd or somebody, you should absolutely do that, because I find myself,

I'll publicly apologize to Beck Bennett now, because once he came in for a pilot of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and after the audition, I said, wait, Mike, can he do it again, because he can be better. I just came out of my mouth Bring it way down something like that and then he was great He had chosen to make the character big and I love Beck Bennett Yes, get the guy a major movie in a major show. Yeah, I'm allowed to say that when you say Mike you're talking about sure Mike Sure, yes, we love the best of the shows are spectacular plug for the new Ted dancing show, which is spectacular

You guys are gonna love it Kristen just know, oh, I'm so excited. Kristen just did a little thing on it, I think. I know, I didn't get to go to that, but I know she did a little bit. But yeah, Mike Schor is a director who's a dream, because he wants to see who you are. Right. And he doesn't care about the words.

He does ultimately, but he doesn't, because you find stuff there that you would bring to it, or that Beck Bennett would bring to it that is not on the page, and you do need to show them who you are. And you gotta be able to do the thing. I totally get it. You have to be able to do the thing. I totally do. You have to be able to do the thing.

I think a mix is always good. Like if you, for the most part, stick to the sides the whole time, but maybe you improvise on the button, or you add a little something. Still, you better ask. Okay, great, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or else they will say, I've had major comedy people go, he changed my line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll always be defensive of the actor, always. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I don't like it when they make fun of an actor And I'll always be defensive of the actor, always. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I don't like it when they make fun of an actor. I just, always defensive of the actor.

When they leave, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or when they're warm, come on. Okay, what do you think about coming in character and forgoing the chit chat? What are actors like? Cause I always try to make an actor feel at home when they come in, but I realize I should ask the actor, do you just want to come in and do it and then talk?

It's got to be project specific, right? Drama? Yes. I've come into things, I remember, I almost got on True Detective. So I go into that and I'm like, you know what? I want to get to the acting as quickly as possible because I am funny in real life and I'm joyous.

And then I don't want to have that huge radical shift. For you, I'd rather just come in, be polite, and do the thing and let you see that I can be a badass and then leave. But I don't know. I feel like it's project specific. I mean, I've always just been, I think, empathetic to actors when they come in, because no matter who it's in there, it's a dead room. And coming into audition for comedy is ridiculous. You're in a vacuum and you're trying to be funny.

And they've seen it 45 times. Exactly. And it's a ridiculous task. So that's why I also think self-taping is ridiculous. You're in a vacuum and you're trying to be funny. And they've seen it 45 times. Exactly, and it's a ridiculous task. So that's why I also think self-taping is beneficial. Great, that was one of my questions. People think it isn't, but it's beneficial. That's change. You come in and then I should ask actors, can I say something and make a joke?

I always try to just make some sort of joke or mention, I just saw them in something, but I do have a feel for if they kind of just want to start. Because what I am cut off from is I appreciate it, but how much preparation you folks have done and how you've talked yourself out of it and how you beat yourself up. The whole car right there.

The lobby is the worst. The lobby is you're listening to other great comedians. And you see the same people. Can I tell a small anecdote? Yes, please. Donald Lines movie, he did a movie of Yogi Bear, which was lovely. People should discover that for their kids

or put it on Netflix. And I was bringing in the greatest comedy people ever. Dan Aykroyd was willing to come in and read for Yogi Bear. He was perfect. But of course the studio thinks they have to hear him do it, which is ridiculous. That's the other thing. I'm like, just hire this person, but that never works.

He came in and then Rob Cordray came in and he said, I have to follow Dan Aykroyd. And I instantly was like, God, I know. Because my generation, I was starstruck to even meet Dan Aykroyd. But you see who's coming in, who came in before you. It's so rough. It's the worst.

It's such a mindfuck. Yeah, you're already nervous and then you see, these four guys are definitely better than me. I have to cut myself off from her, or else I'll just be too much jelly of sympathy. I was going to say that. And how much preparation, and when they leave, it always just blows me away. Somebody who gives an incredible audition and who you can tell worked on it so hard.

That is impressive. That is how you audition. Right. Yeah. You can't take on everyone's energy. The amount of energy. Oh. Oh my God. But God bless actors from A to audition. Right. Yeah, you can't take on everyone's energy, the amount of energy, oh my God. But God bless actors from A to Z.

That's very gracious. Honest to God. That is gracious. Oh, some of them come in not prepared at all. Right. And then you're like, just leave, you're a jackass. Yeah. What's the number one mistake you see actors make?

I would say not with me, but when you're in with a big director, a big producer doing it and saying, oh, I didn't like that, can I do it again? Good tip. People can do it, but sometimes... You better be fucking great that next adjustment you gave yourself. I think so, and I think sometimes you sort of want to wait

for the director to do that. Get a feel for the room, be prepared, and don't come in, and I know you can be nervous, and I will try to help. Is that the camera? Am I looking good? That's what actors do. I would say just sort of read the room sometimes and don't come in and say I just got the sides last night

so I'm not prepared. That's an old trick some actors have done for decades. I will already know which actor's gonna come in and go, oh, I just got the sides last night. Okay, great, these are great tips. And don't chew gum in an audition unless it calls for it. A lot of people are insecure and they'll eat food or chew gum in an audition You asked me about you. What do you think about coming in in character? Yeah?

Yeah, I can see freaking people out or I can see it really working and you mean coming in in character being the character not dressed Like a policeman or something well, that's two questions. I guess well self tapes I think it's fine to look like the person because studio executives who approve these parts, you're in a cop uniform, they're gonna think, oh, he can be a cop. Yeah, it does a lot of the work. God bless them, but most of them think surface things.

Yeah, they're juggling different things. Yes, exactly. And then you do have a group of executives who are unbelievably tuned into the creative part of it, but many are not. But I would say come in, in character, with comedy, I think it's okay, I wouldn't say you have to. But for example, J.B. Smoove came into audition for Curb

as the character he had made up. And he came in, Larry, Larry David! He came in instantly, Larry was on the floor. He had the part immediately, basically. So you gotta be pretty confident when you do it. You gotta be good and you gotta be confident because then it won't hurt you, in my opinion. I could see someone going, this is a little scary.

I need to know the real person. Yeah, exactly. Frequently also, when the scene is done, you get a feel for the person. Yes. The way in Borat, Ken DeVician, who played his assistant in Borat in the first Borat movie,

came in with, Sasha did not know, but with a very authentic Eastern European accent. And then after he was done, after he got the part, we told him he was American. Oh, wow. Oh, that's great. So that was smart, and Sasha was blown away, because we L.A.G.ed him.

I mean, we... Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what's the hardest role you've ever had to cast? Meaning you read the most amount of people and traveled the greatest distance. McLevin. Oh really?

Everybody knows what McLevin is. Yes. Oh. I would say it was the toughest role ever to cast. No kidding. It took months and months. Pre-internet, I think we did some sort of a MySpace thing. That was the first big internet thing, right?

MySpace. Yeah. And it turned up nobody. Those are days you still put up flyers in high schools and things like that. And I knew I wasn't turning up a good geek. You know, I know I can recognize a good geek. And Judd was like, no, no, no, no, no.

Michael Cera first came in from McClellan. And then it was apparent he was perfect. That was right after he finished Arrested Development. So he wasn't a star yet. We still had to read every kid in town to play Seth and Evan. Judd first only wanted kids who were actually 18 or 19. So at the time Jonah was a little bit too old. We wanted him to do the table read

and no, Judd wanted kids younger. I sort of ignored kids who were older than 19 or 20 and then it did dawn on Judd, wait a minute, Jonah looks like a baby. Of course he can do this. And then Michael Cera came back and read as Seth. And of course, wait a minute. Or Evan.

Or Evan. One of the two. But Mick Lovin, I wanted to find the most amazing nerd ever, Greg Metola did too. And I knew I wasn't turning anybody up. Casting people know when they're not deliver and you had to keep looking. And so we put up flyers in high schools

and I still have a copy of my flyer. It was Attention Nerdy High School Boys. Call this number or fax. Fax your picture to this number. The little headshot of Christopher Mintz, plus eight, Call this number or fax. Fax your picture to this number. The little headshot of Christopher Mince-Place came through a bad fax. His forehead was stretched out. And the picture came through.

And I was like, okay, we're going to see this kid. We had sent, and my associate at the time, Delia Frankel had looked up improv classes in high schools. So we had sent them around to high schools. And they were calling us. And I think the way he got was one of his friend's mothers said, there's a flyer for a nerdy high school kid Christopher I think you should submit it. So he came in Judd saw it instantly. Other people did not. I did Judd did. The reason I thought he was funny is because part of the scene was he had to name his character McLoving. He said McLoving instead of McLoving. Crack me up just the way he said it.

Those are the little things you recognize in comedy. And he was just like Coke bottle glasses kind of a kid. The same way that Martin Star was. He read for all three male roles in Freaks and Geeks, all the geek roles. And he was just like, bingo, he's one of them. And knew what he was doing. He came in and he was like, wow, look at the way this kid looks and he can act. Right.

Same with Tim Simons when he came in for Veep. Oh, thank you for that compliment By the way Veep and Parks and Recs knocked me out those casts and I'm not saying it to pat myself on the back They're impossible. It's all an act of faith all of it and they knocked me out. We heard he was a casting assistant He was at some point. I think he was I don't know specifically but not for He was at some point. I think he was. I don't know specifically. But not for V. But I mean, you know Tim, the way I found Tim, and it's a great sort of casting story, I should get into the Phyllis story too. Am I taking you over too much time? No. No.

One of my associates at the time, Peter Kousakis, who's now a great manager at Mosaic, he said, would you meet my friend Tim Simons? He said, did you see that Abraham Lincoln commercial when she says, does this make my butt look big? And I said, oh yeah, that tall guy, he's cool. Of course I would see him. I love to see new people, of course, as all casting people do. And then I met him, I think we just brought him in

to read for something and it was like, oh, he's really good. We put that in our head bank and I brought him in, shortly thereafter I think, for one thing that he didn't get, and then I brought him in for the VEEP pilot, which was written as like a short, stocky chain smoker Right any good casting director. You don't really read the writers description because you need to just bring in good people Yes, yes, so he came in and he was killer funny

We read great people for the VEEP pilot because that writing is Armando Iannucci And Julia came in for the sessions and read with people Yeah, so that was very enjoyable, but Tim came in and killed it But his competition was stiff, and when we got to the network at HBO, he was great. And after talking, I was able to hear how they came to the conclusion that Tim Simons was the way to go. And again, against some very big comedy people.

And Julia would talk about it and how she wanted to act with these people. Julia was a large part of picking that cast. She said about Tony Hale versus the competition for Tony Hale, I would not be embarrassed to ask Tony Hale to get me a Tampax. Right. And that's how he decided he would be the perfect bag man.

Yes. She said Tony would not embarrass me. The other person might embarrass me. Right. And it turns out that we ended up using all the runner-ups in recurring roles on Veep. What a freaking cast. Wait, do you want to tell Phyllis?

Oh, Phyllis. I don't know if this is generally known. I think it is that Phyllis was my associate for seven or eight years. And we were casting the pilot of The Office with Ken Quapus. We were in the room reading. We had two days of final testing

for all the different combinations we could use for The Office. I was reading and Phyllis was filming. And Ken Quapus just sort of tiptoed over to me and said, let Phyllis read with the actors becauseapus just sort of tiptoed over to me and said let Phyllis Read with the actors because I think she might be good in the background It was like of course she would look at the people in the British office in the background. They're real looking people Yeah, and so yes We let Phyllis read and she went in to read with the test between like Krasinski and Jenna and a lot of other people

I had previously been reading with Steve and a few other people and she was great We were so excited and then Greg when he faxed over the pilot, and there was one line for Phyllis, we went. How exciting! Because at the time, Phyllis was going to make like $630 for the day, and that was exciting, Sag Scale. Yes! Yeah, in 2003.

Right about the time I met Dax Shepard. Hahaha. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward.

I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward.

I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward.

I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a little bit of a coward. I'm a big driver of who gets cast is like what their following is. Not in what I work on. Okay, good. No. Okay. I wouldn't have a clue. And if somebody says to me,

oh, they have so many followers or they're this on TikTok, it's not a negative for me, but it means, well, they're not a trained actor. Uh-huh. Yeah. Maybe they're funny. I'll look at a clip and it's like, that person's not going to be able to act. Right. And I've been wrong many times.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But usually, it's a version of that. How about this? What percentage of the roles on the shows and movies that you're casting already have stars attached? Almost 100%. Movies have to have a star attached to get it made. To get any financing you probably need two or three, no matter how low the budget.

Even maybe the lower the budget you need the financiers to say, we've got Kristen Bell, and we got Deck Shepherd. Right, well, let's not play it too fast and loose. We got Monica Padman and Deck Shepherd. That's a good comment. Now we're adding up to like half a Kristen Bell. Listen to the mix, all three, it's looking pretty good. And TV frequently now for the streamers,

they probably have a project attached to, like I'm currently doing Bill Lawrence's show with Steve Carell, but we're casting everybody around him. Yes, so what is your preference? Do you like to start with a clean slate, or do you like that? Oh, I love to start with a clean slate. In the office, we started with a clean slate. And would you prefer to break unknowns?

In comedy, for sure. It's got to be more rewarding for you. It's so much more rewarding to give someone a break. Yes. Earlier you said, I love meeting new people, as all casting directors do, but I don't think that's true. I think you're an exception. I think a lot of casting directors,

they don't necessarily want to see anyone new. They want reliable people they already know, and I think it's special. I don't know about that. I couldn't speak for other people. Well, I think it's special. You may be more of an expert in that than I, but I know that we all have our favorites

based on how we perceive the talent and how they can deliver and how they haven't been given a shot to do it yet. I'll read something and think, oh, this is perfect for Monica Padman or this is perfect for Rory Scoville or something. And they haven't been given that huge shot yet. Yeah.

But I think that's an exception. I really do. You really do? I don't know. I think it's special. Have you had people who you know are so talented and you've seen them be so talented and they just can't audition?

Oh, plenty, especially in comedy. And is it heartbreaking? It's heartbreaking because my job then is to talk the director into it and to show them stuff or another audition where they've done it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't. People will listen to you and then people won't listen to you.

Yeah, I gotta say one of the, I think, more difficult things about this job is I don't know how good Daniel Day-Lewis is as an auditioner. He would probably be the worst auditioner. He probably would be. It's a different skill set. It's almost the closest they'll get to stand up. They don't have any of the environment.

They don't have the other actors. There's the reverse. There are people who are great auditioners who then on the set, you don't get anything more from them. Yeah. Yeah, you get the line reading from the audition. However, a kid who was great from the time he was 12, Leonardo DiCaprio.

Wow. Okay, so let's talk about Once Upon a Time. I gotta say, in the last 10 years, the performance that has blown my mind more than any other, and I watch the movie all the time, is Once Upon a Time. Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie is so next level. I don't think people are recognizing that he's playing three levels of actor.

He is an actor, playing an actor, who's okay okay sometimes and then he has a moment where he's great. Exactly. But he's not as great as Leonardo DiCaprio can be great. He's as great as that actor can be. Yeah. When you see what's going on in that scene and what he's having to juggle, it's so impressive. He has never given a bad performance. He's always almost better than some of the movies he's in.

Killers of the Flower Moon. Any other actor in that part would have been like they were doing a role from a sketch in Hoot Nanny. It was like, are you kidding me? He was heartbreakingly good in that role. And he was so over the top. And the version of that in comedy is like Steve Carell as Michael Scott, so over the top,

but still unbelievably real and good. You gotta be a genius to pull those off. Well, Alison Jones, this has been such a delight. And a delight for me. I could talk to you guys for hours. Oh, same. You're the best. You're so sweet and wonderful.

And I'm, well, I guess my single last question is, you refuted my claim of 42 years, but it is 41 years. Might be 41 and a half, but just say 41. Yeah. How on earth have you kept your stamina to stay hungry? And your job is so hard, the hours are so crazy. How have you stayed hungry and dialed in? Only because I like it.

However, the past 10, 15 years, it's a different business in terms of what we do and in terms of pressure you get from top heavy things and things have changed completely. You're like a doctor that has to do managed care now with an insurance provider. Exactly. Perfect.

And even since streaming has started, it's incredibly different. You go to one of these streamers and we become just data entry people. Everything's put into an algorithm. I hate the word algorithm. They've algorithmized creativity and you can't do that. But they have and they've tried. algorithm, I hate the word algorithm. Look at your resume, it's fucking ridiculous. I was right to be so excited to get an audition from you.

Well, you're so kind. You're a legend. Thank you, girl. We're super honored that you could be here. My assistant Hannah freaked out when I told her I was doing this. But she did. I'm afraid I'm not a podcast person either,

and I should be, because I'm a true crime person, more than anything. Oh, then you're missing out on the... I know. But I Googled armchair expert, and I typed too fast, and it said arm hair expert. I'm person more than anything. Oh, then you're missing out on that. I know, but I Googled armchair expert and I typed too fast and it said arm hair expert. I'm not kidding. That should be another show we do.

Arm hair expert. I need one. I have arm hair. Yeah, it's literally insane. Fuck, I forgot one question I want to answer. This is a nosy question. When you have a track record like yours and someone wants to cast a comedy,

starting with you is like starting with Jimmy Burrows. Do you get to participate ever in the success of a show? No, and I wish I had. On a couple of Indies I have, one of them has paid off extremely well, but casting directors, we can't even get paid ads. I mean, we just don't get anything because studios don't care and they don't understand.

That's insane. I feel like you should be a participant with your level. You can on indie movies because they do need you to attach some of their leads, things like that. But no, on television, never. If I had residuals on shows like Boy Meets World, Fresh Principal, or The Office, I'd be retired right now and I'd be very happy.

Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. No, we do not and I wish we did. That's the next step. This year I was able to help negotiate with the AMPTP and the Teamsters and it was fascinating and we can only go baby step by baby step.

But when we could ever participate, especially in a cast like The Office, which you do do from scratch. Yeah. And people do know your you do do from scratch. Yeah. And people do know your value as a casting person. Yeah. In a comedy, basically, I do know I have value. Yeah.

Creatively anyway. But thank you for asking that because no, we almost get paid within the same pay range too. I don't get paid much more than anybody else. It's kind of like when you're a director of a TV show, you get the DGA minimum. It doesn't matter if you've had a great career. Now if you're Burroughs, you can obviously negotiate ownership of the show to do the pilot.

That's how they make money, right? The ownership of the show. Anybody who gets to do a pilot, very good. Jim Burroughs is so wealthy. Yeah, oh my God. Look at the pilot he's done. Warner bought the fucking Red Sox. Yeah, I know, I know.

Yeah. Although again, that too has changed. What do you mean? It's changed. Well, Seinfeld would sell into a cycle of syndication for $800 million. And in the streaming world, none of these shows that have been on the air

for six years get sold into syndication. People don't get, like Mike, sure. One of my questions. I said, Mike, do you ever lament the fact that if you had the exact same career you had in the 80s and 90s, you would have $800 million? He goes, yeah, I think about that a lot. One of my very early pilots was for a very big in the 80s and 90s, you would have $800 million.

One of my very early pilots was for a very big then TV producer named James Comack who did Sanford and Son and did all the cool shows. And he had a big home in Beverly Hills that he called Casa Syndication. But that's a lovely question to ask about if we practice because no and I wish I did No, you should! And I wish I had it'll never happen. It's kind of bonkers. Not in my lifetime. Crazy to me.

Or stock options. I'll take stock options too. Yeah, yeah, yeah! You can see this on Netflix. Okay, don't pay me but give me a mutual fund of Amazon. Yeah! And that's great. We put a mutual fund out and pay us that way.

Yeah! And then when you get rich, we get rich. Okay, well Allison, I look forward to seeing you again. We adore you. This has been so fun. I'm so glad you agreed rich, we get rich. Okay, well, Allison, I look forward to seeing you again. We adore you. This has been so fun. I'm so glad you agreed to do it. And I hope your nerves dissipated. It's dissipated.

I was so excited when you emailed. You're definitely getting called back to producers. I can tell you in the room. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, be well. This is fantastic. Thank you.

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at. Yeah, but it's fine. I think he's, I don't know what the word is. Sturdy. I was gonna say fighter, that's not right. I want clinger, like maybe he's, because I wouldn't call a sloth a fighter.

By God, can they hang upside down indefinitely? That's true, that is true. Maybe he's sloth-like? He wants to show up for his friends. And for the holiday. Yeah. What is that thing, Monica? Is that a person or a reindeer or a ram?

Those horns should be kind of informative, I guess. I think he's a bear reindeer. Just a big old reindeer with two big horns. It's from Pottery Barn Kids. Or those ears are hers. I shouldn't genderize. I think those are ears and then he, and then... Some antennas.

Horns. I see some metal antennas. I thought those were reindeer horns. Is it remote control? That's our hat. Yep. Our tree's hat. And to put it on the very top, made it leave frame.

Yeah, so he's it on the very top, made it leave frame. Yeah, so he's just sitting on some branches. Yeah, he's almost summited that tree. He's a he. Yeah, let's call it what it is. It's festive in here. Okay, so we just scrambled, right? Because we're setting up for the holiday episode.

Yeah, which we should tell, we have a holiday episode coming up. It's a bonus episode. It's a bonus extra episode. Yes. On the 20th. That's a coming. That's the 20th is when it's coming.

It will be on YouTube though. Of course, it's going to be everywhere. I think people should watch it on YouTube. Oh, big time. You're going to have some A-list singers dropping through. Going to have some present reveals. Going to have some A-list singers dropping through, going to have some present reveals, going to have a lot of decor. This is only a taste of what

Wobby Wob's got more stuff planned. Great. As he does. This tree has been stolen from my daughter's room. So I had a really great meditation this morning. Great. It's been a long time since I had a great one. What constitutes a great meditation?

I think what adds up to it is like, can I stop ruminating? Can I not think about our employers during my meditation? Can I achieve that goal? And so I got kind of, I took a different tactic with my mantra a little bit, which was no one's, and we don't need to get this in detail but I was just literally like say that you have to say the mantra five times and just concentrating with some limited thing then I could buy myself five more all to say when it's really great I lose a sense of my body which is really fun like

I know how I'm sitting, but I can't really feel my hands or my legs anymore. I can tell I'm kind of detached from my body. And then I'll often get blasts of light. I'll start seeing like lights in my, there's a word for this in TM, but I don't know what it is. I've heard Howard talking about it,

but I'll get some light activity in my detached state from my body. And anyways, when I came out of it, and that's why I'm telling you about it, is when it ended all by myself in my room, I said, hey y'all, really great meditation. Wow. That was the first thing out. It was. That's great.

That's the power of TM. It opened up my creative channels enough to go, hey y'all, really great meditation. That's good. That's good. And then I thought, of course, need to have an app that just at the end of your thing you hear, hey y'all, really great meditation. That's good, that's good. And then I thought, of course, need to have an app that just set the end of your thing you hear, hey y'all, really great meditation. That would be great. People would buy it.

Are you done with your Christmas shopping? Oh man, I'm afraid to even think about that. I mean, I know I've gotten a bunch and I've certainly forgotten people and it's gonna, as much as I love, this is my holiday, as you know, it's my favorite. God, do I cherish every day of it. In fact, I hate that it's coming.

I hate that there'll be a day where it ends. Yeah, I know. And so the girls will be like, they're in a hurry. And I'm like, no, no, no, guys, just pump the brakes. Enjoy it. Enjoy, it's so much more fun anticipating it. But the only part I can't stand about it is the test of your love for others

by how thoughtful your gift was. And then I was thinking, I got a little cynical for a minute. I was like, they really got us with this racket. I mean, what an incredible racket. So consumerism is like, you have to go buy something for everyone you care about.

That's the rules. Well, it's not always the rules. You can make new rules like secret turkey, we have to make our gifts. You don't have to go out and buy. It's just taking time to think about people. Yeah, what if at Christmas morning, everyone sat around and you go, I thought about you.

Like that was the president. That would be nice. Well, that'd be like the Grinch who stole Christmas. Maybe Christmas doesn't come from a store. Wow. Dr. Sussian. Sussian. Yeah, your favorite word.

You know this. This is a blast from the past. But Crosby's houseboat, which was in Sausalito Harbor in real life. The first time we ever shot on it, it was an actual boat. And then it of course was in a soundstage down here, but it was originally in Sausalito.

Two boats over from Crosby's boat was Dr. Seuss's boat. He had a houseboat in Sausalito. And he still had. It was still his boat. I guess it was his wife's at that point. His wife's still alive? She was in 2000, but whatever year we filmed the pilot. Whoa.

Wobby Wob, give us a update on Mrs. Seuss. His second wife died in 2018. Yeah, that's way after we shot. Another blast from the past, are you ready for this? Yes. Some scholarly detective armchairy. People, a lot of people know this whole thing because they came in and COVID.

My endless fucking thing about the American soldiers getting the English woman pregnant during World War II. Yeah. They found the book I'm talking about. You know who wrote it? Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss, no, Seuss. Now Margaret Mead. That's a Margaret Mead book.

It's almost impossible to get. There's like five libraries in the country. What's it called? I could tell you. Yeah, we need to know. Tell you right frigging now. But not only am I not insane that I imagined that whole thing,

it's Margaret Mead, godmother of anthro. It's called The American Troops in the British Community, an Examination of the Relationship Between the American Troops and the British community and an examination of the relationship between the American troops and the British by Margaret Mead. Is this the pumping the brakes thing? Yes. Yeah, OK. That her conclusion was culturally in America,

women have the brake pedal, men have the gas pedal. But in England, men have the brake pedal, women have the gas pedal. You get a couple of folks with a gas pedal. I had an anecdotal experience with a gal. You did. Who I adore. Yeah.

What a gift. Yeah. Yeah. And we used to ask all British people if they agreed with this and pretty much no one did. Well, I remember it as being like 50-50, but. Oh, okay. And then there was, but in my pursuit of figuring out what the hell I had read, of course I stumbled upon

a bunch of other academic papers on this same topic because there's this huge term war babies. There was like this, yeah. And so one of the theories or conclusions was another element is that in America kissing's nothing. Anyone will kiss, you kiss on a first date, whatever. But that in the steps of progression in England in 1942, kissing was very far down the road.

You would've held hands, you would've done all this other stuff. I guess kissing was like, you're there. If you've committed to kissing, you're pretty much committed to banging. And so there was some miscommunication there where the American GIs were like, let me put one on you.

And then those gals were like, oh my God, this is, I think we're going to have a sexual intercourse. This is so intimate. Not as intimate as holding hands. Okay. For me, the most intimate is holding hands. I have to basically be about to marry you

in order to hold my hand. That would be so weird to be dating you, had of made out, rolled around, lots of sex, go to grab your hand and you always pull it away. That would be freaky. Well, this happened. I went on a couple dates with someone and they held my hand and I was like, what are you doing?

Yeah, like let's do anal, but let's not do this. I was like, what are you doing? Like let's do anal, but let's not do this. Way too intimate, way too intimate. Where do you think that stems from? I guess the only real memory I have of having my handheld is as a kid from my parents. Yeah, sure. Or my grandparents or someone like making sure I was safe.

Yes. It wasn't just, no one in my family just holds hands. They don't. Yeah, I think it's gone too, but it's my life. So my parents don't hold hands or anything. So it wasn't a symbol of like romantic affection. It was a symbol of safety. And that's extremely intimate.

Yeah. So unless you're about to propose, you're not allowed to hold my hand. Grab that hand when it's time to propose. I hold hands on the ride to school every morning. If I'm in the car with them and they're in the front seat, we're holding hands. Yeah, I feel like you hold Christmas' hand,

you hold people's hands. I hold Erin's hand. Yeah, yeah. Hand holding's very nice. I think it's very nice. Yeah, very intimate for you. It is. It is.

Okay, do I have my Christmas presents done? Not really. This year, I didn't feel like I got the, there was a perfect gift for anyone really. So I didn't really, so far I haven't got the satisfaction that I normally get in buying presents. But that's okay. You can't win every time.

Right, and so you so what I'm grateful for is you have experienced how I mostly experience my impressing, I hope they like this, this'll do. They'll know I thought of them. Well, I know everyone will like it. Sure, you got good taste. Yeah. But I wasn't like, I'm not feeling like,

I'm so excited for everyone to open their gifts. To see their faces. To see it and they're gonna, and it's so thoughtful. It's like not as thoughtful this year, but you know, it's okay. I've already had some mix ups, so. Okay. Use your gift guide, everyone should.

A lot is sold, you said a lot was sold out and I thought you were just being nice. But then I went on to send some stuff to my mom to buy me. And, cause she needs a written list. Yeah. And a lot was gone. Oh yeah. Cause I wanted stuff off of that gift bag too.

Virtually nothing. The only thing I could get is when I'd be on the website and then I'd start sniffing around for other items. Sure. Those glasses, those adorable glasses, which they didn't have the first time I was at that website. Oh, they got back in stock? Then I was there for some other business.

So anyways, I sent them to my sister-in-law. Cute. And they arrived and they just opened up the box and then she sent me a text. I like these, I'm like, how could you have thought? You didn't have to wait till Christmas. But it's not her fault, it's not her fault. Slow down, slow down, slow down, Dax.

She goes, oh my God, I'm so, your brother feels terrible. So what happened was the box came, my brother just opened it. He knows I didn't get him fucking set of glasses. So he just like, Dax got you these glasses. But clearly it's Christmas. You wanna hear the gross thing I did too? So she's like, oh, I like them.

And then I'm like, I need her to know they're not kids. I didn't get those at McN... I didn't get them at a fast food restaurant. I'm like those, I respond. Yeah, those are Monica's fancy glasses. Like I enlisted you. I was like, yeah, she knows if I said these are Monica's fancy glasses. Like I enlisted you. I was like, yeah, she knows if I said these are Monica's, she's gonna go like, ooh, he spoiled me.

Oh, that's nice. That is really nice. Is that store not in America? It's not. Okay, great. So this is a grievance I have. I went nuts there. And they use DHL, which I guarantee is a phenomenal service.

This is no shade DHL, but I think it must work easier in Europe. Sure. This is a ton of texts and it just standard as a signature. No. I know. Fucking standards, no signature guys, unless I say signature. So then I got to go every single item I bought

from that place, which is a lot. I had to go and fill out the forms to make sure that they could be left on the porch But after but I have my text from DHL I probably have 40 texts from DHL in the last week and every time I think now no this one's just an update It's not the consent form for the no signature. I already did that. Oh boy Yeah, the signature can get very stressful Listen to my complaints in life. What? I just got completely ashamed of my complaints Oh boy, yeah, the signature can get very stressful. Listen to my complaints in life.

What? I just got completely ashamed of my complaints. Yeah. Like we live in an era where I can see something that's gorgeous and then it'll arrive somewhere and I'm like so flummoxed. Like I have to sign for it. I had to click my phone twice.

It's true. It's true, but this is what happens with technology. We just get accustomed. To it being quicker and quicker and quicker and easier and easier. Yeah, and we want it to be, I mean, again, we've talked about this a lot, but like the amount of minutes my brain has spent

on wishing there was teleportation and really wishing, like thinking like, I think that's coming and that needs to come now. And like, it's about time, like actually frustrated. Yeah. Where is it? Yeah about time, like actually frustrated. Yeah. Where is it? Yeah.

Yeah, when I try to explain to the kids that like, yeah, I had a cassette tape, it was 60 minutes long. If I wanted to listen to my favorite song over and over again, I had to rewind forever. And then who knows where you land. Who knows? You can't land on your song. No.

You're always going to be listening to the back half of a song you don't want to listen to. Sure, I know, wild. You're in all black today. Well, I think these are- You look great. Thank you. Yeah, very smart outfit.

Thank you, but I think these are actually dark navy. I don't want to do this. They are, they are. Let me guess, your shoes and socks aren't white. They're titanium white. I bought these at a store. And when I bought them, they were Navy. On the description.

I think so. Okay. I want to be honest and say I don't really remember, but I'm pretty sure they were. I'm ensnared in it. Here we go. There's no way those are Navy. Yeah. Hold on. I can't sit here and have you saying those are Navy. It's the same of snared in it. Here we go. There's no way those are Navy.

I can't sit here and have you saying those are Navy. It's the same color as your shirt. On the TV, it kind of looks Navy. Oh, great. Here we go. This is a constant double cross from Wobby Wob. Well, I don't know if in person though. Well, it's just kind of shimmery. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Rob, for being honest, speaking your mind. You have something on, Rob. There's something behind- You both have great points. I think it could be both. Look, I will say- I'm straddling.

I know. I will say that normally I'm more, it's Navy. Like I feel very definitive about it. Yeah. I'll give you that these, a couple times I've thought, are these black? But then they're not. Okay.

I would prefer you go like, these aren't Navy. That's the kind of reaction I would do. You prefer me to say these aren't Navy than are these black? Yeah, I just think it's funny to go, like you've been duped, you just go, these aren't it's funny to go, like you've been duped, you just go,

is that a Navy? Just to yourself. Right. You don't think that's funny. I just think it's literally the exact same thing. This is like what happens on sets where there's a line written and the person, normally the writer says like,

oh, this is the best way to say it. The main writer. Well, sometimes me. Yeah, I mean sometimes me. Exactly, and says, well, no, this is, I've dissected that this is the funniest way to say it. And then the actor, whoever will say the same line, and then the original person is like, no, no, no.

Can you go back? Can you say- Well, unfortunately, that's actually the script supervisors. He says Navy? Job, which is so unfair, because they don't give a fuck what you say. I don't care. And they're pitted right between the actor and the writer.

Yeah, this isn't Navy and is this black? Those are pretty substantively different. No, they're not! I think so, Iively different. No, they're not! I think so, I think so. No, they're not. Like if you had written a line, say your line again. Are these black? That's really good, you sold it this time.

So I'll try that, I'll do one your way and then you pick in the edit. Okay. Are these black? That's kind of a new read on it. New read, oh, is this navy? It was like an acting exercise, I didn't want to do exactly how you did. No, but Yeah. A new read? Oh, is this Navy? Different, yeah. It was like an acting exercise. I didn't want to do exactly how you did.

No, but do the Navy one, though. Oh, didn't I? No, I was doing yours. Oh, but I want you to do both so I could pick in the edit. My God. You told me, you set this up. That's lunch, everybody. We didn't get to it.

I was leaving for lunch. Oh. Oh my God. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Oh my God. I like the idea of that Rob leaves for lunch. That was such a Rob joke. It wasn't a pun though, but it was like a behavioral pun. A baby pun. A behavioral pun.

Yeah. Wow. That was great. Okay, wait. Back to why you're in all black. No real reason, just that's your outfit. Yeah, this is just like. No one passed. No, no, no, no, no.

I just thought it was chic. Yeah, yeah, dress to impress, dress to impress. Yeah, I do that. People wanna. Why did you look down at your? Cause I have a fuzz. Oh, okay. I go, dress to impress and you go.

This is my outfit. I'm just repeating what just actually happened. We could rewind the tape. Okay, I look down, this is my outfit, and then I saw I have a bunch of fuzzies on. Tell me I dress to impress. Even though you know where it's going. You dress to impress.

Oh my God. Wouldn't that be a wild? For me to look at my outfit and not look at my boobs, I'd have to like, I'd have to, I feel so conscious now. Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry if that was sorry. That's okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry if that was inappropriate.

Anyway. Anyway. I know where we're at. Really great meditation. Pfft, that was so long ago. Yeah, well, I'm glad you had a great meditation. Good, me too. I watched a Christmas story last night.

Okay. No one will watch it with me. I mean, the kids won't watch it with me. Got it. And I was like, why don't they, they know good shit. Why are they acting like they don't like this movie? I really couldn't accept it. And then I was watching it and they weren't there.

And I was like, yeah, it's probably a little slow for them. Oh. I could admit that. And it made me very nostalgic for back when there was like a downtown and it was decorated. Cause when I was a kid, Detroit still had like, Hudson's did a big Christmas display. You could go meet Santa and you go to Saunders ice cream

and have a cream puff. And it was a whole thing. There was a, there was a parade. And then Cobble Hall had this thing. And I asked that, you know, that opening shot where they go, it's a wide, it's in Cleveland in the 50s, Higbee's, you remember, their department store was Higbee's and it was lit up beautifully

and a really great window display with train sets. It made me so nostalgic and sad. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, also to them, the 50s is like the 1900s to us. I don't want to watch a movie about the 1900s. Yeah, and you know what? Instead of trying to get my kids to like it, what I do, I go, oh, my father-in-law was born in Cleveland

and this is the era of his childhood. So I'm like, hey, do you love a Christmas story? He's like, who doesn't? I go, yeah, but you particularly, you grew up in Cleveland. And then he was like, is it set in Cleveland? Then he sent me this whole thing. He's like, oh my God, you're right, Higbee's. I used to go to Higbee's every,

and then he had a whole story about Higbee's. That's cute. Yeah. So then you just text it throughout the whole movie. Because it's slow and boring. It's not a good movie. No, it's so good. And Ralphie, if anyone's gonna, has yet to watch it

and they're still gonna watch it, what I want people to dial in most specific, the cutest thing he does, Peter Billingsley, I.E. Ralphie, his tongue is so busy in that movie and it is one of the cutest things I've ever seen. Like when he's doing the decoder ring and he's like, eh, eh, eh, eh, and they know it too, because they always need to go to extreme closeup

of his little mouth with that little tongue darting around. And anytime he's reading out loud or he's thinking, he's in front of his class, he's like having this fantasy that his teacher loved his essay. And she's on the chalkboard right now, A plus, A plus, and they go to him and he just wistfully thinking of this,

and he's like, and his little tongue is darting around his face. Oh, is it cute. Acting used to be so easy. All you had to do is move your tongue around. He darting around his face. Oh, is it cute? Acting used to be so easy. All you had to do is move your tongue around. Darted around. And it was considered good acting. No, he's impossibly good for a nine-year-old in that movie.

It's crazy how good he is. But just any time he's thinking, the Shepherds, we stick our tongue out when we're concentrating really hard. You do? You've not noticed that? I don't have it quite as bad as my dad, or my brother, or my uncle,

but yeah, if I'm really going after something, my tongue comes out. Really? And we all do it, yeah. So his just seemed like the thing he does when he's distracted. Wait, hold on, let me, hold on. Do a roll, do it, do it, as if you're,

yeah, I wanna see it. This would be out all of a sudden. Okay, it's a little out, yeah, oh yeah. Like I'm gonna do it. This would be out all of a sudden. Okay, it's a little out. Oh yeah. Like I'm expressing like, like I wanna, I wanna, ah.

I guess I have seen that face. It's kind of become an inappropriate fact check and I want to apologize to the Christmas listeners. Why? Because of my previous thing about you going like this and then now I'm just going like, like it always in that look kind of I just want to clean it up for the holidays

Since when do you want to clean it up? It's the holidays the holidays are sexy. What are you talking about? people loved that for singles and for People and couples they have sex by the fire and stuff. Yeah It's great for singles and couples, not people with children. It's all about children for us. Yeah, but for even, right, people with children, like, don't they still have sex by the fire?

How could you have sex? Your days of having sex by the fire are completely over the day your first kid arrives. What about if they're asleep? Your parents, you can't fucking run the, why not fuck on the island in the kitchen? Why not? No way.

Rob, are you and Natalie fucking in the open house at all? No, never. But do you have a fireplace? We do. Oh. Well, you should fuck in front of it. By all the cleaning toys? Do you ever jerk off in front of it. Do you clean up for Christmas?

Do you ever jerk off in front of that fireplace when no one's home? You know the thing I hate that I can't not think of, and I don't know if this is urban legend or real, but allegedly, rumor, urban legend, little boy who puts his tongue on the pole, gets it stuck to the pole, he did a porno when he grew up.

Oh no. And I know that. They think it's because of that? No, I don't think it's because of that, but I don't like that. I'm watching this movie, and all I can think of is this little boy grows up and does a porno,

which by the way, it's fine if you do pornos. I don't even know why it's, I don't care if you've done a porno. I'm kind of curious why it bumps you. But I don't think when people go into movie acting, their goal is to then graduate to pornos. I think you probably come out here to do movies, you start in pornos, and maybe you graduate. Well, that's the whole thing when your parents are afraid

you're gonna move to Hollywood and then become a porn actor. Yes. That's the stereotype. They're like, don't go become, you're gonna get sucked into porn. Right, unless it's a dad and a son. He's like, boy, I hope you find your way over to pornos. Well, maybe then. Maybe he was just following his dad's dream.

Let me ask you this. Now this one I know is real. Double check Rob so I don't get sued. But I do believe Screech was in an adult film. Yes, I was about to say that he was. Yeah, and does it impact when you're watching Saved by the Bell or are you thinking like? I haven't watched it since I learned that information,

but yes, I can't see a picture and not think that. That he did a porno. But it's more than just like, oh, he did a porno, it feels dark. There's something that feels dark about it. Again, like it's not what they were aiming to do, and that maybe they were in financial straits, and then people knew that they would be a draw. It sounds like someone maybe compromised.

Well, he put it out. He put out a sex tape called Screeched, Saved by the Smell. Saved by the Smell? Saved by the Smell? Yep. What a classy title. I'm lucky I never ended up in one. I mean, let's be honest.

I was unemployed for nine years. Oh no. And I was, you know, I was a party animal. I could have ended up in one, and boy God. Would you really have? I mean, I don't know. You're somewhere, you're drunk, you meet like six porn stars at a thing,

everyone's having fun. I guess you're hanging out with them. You got no money, you like having sex. No. You'd have sex with them, but you wouldn't have them film it. On camera, I'm just saying, I'm lucky that never happened is what I'm saying.

Have you ever filmed yourself having sex? How dare you ask that question in public? Why, why? Have I ever filmed my- People do. Of course they do. Or not, or has, okay. I had to really think about that.

I'm surprised. I think I've run some video on, you know, but I don't want to say anything because it's not, I don't want to say- Who, we're don't wanna say. Who? We're not saying who with. Yes, but I think I've run some video on some nudity in my day.

Wait, what's the difference? This is like the, it's a lot of reasoning. I'll tell you the difference. Like, did I ever set up a tripod? Right. And then, no, I didn't do that. Oh, then what is running some video on nudity? What's that look like?

Well, you got your video camera out and you're like shooting in your thing and then your girlfriend's naked. And then you film her because you want to look at it later at some point. I think there's a bit. But it's not the act. Right. Okay, okay, okay. I mean, I don't have any problem

with people making a sex tape. I think that's awesome. They're having fun. Having sex by the fire. The holidays. Like most couples do. Like most married couples with household children do. Ha ha ha.

All right, well this is for Allison Jones. And this is our last episode of the year. I mean, sort of. We have a holiday special. Smorgasbburg of offerings. No, no, no, we do, but this is our last real episode. Then we have an Armchair Anonymous coming out on Friday. And then we have our holiday special.

This is our last new interview of the year. How about that? Okay. And it was a great year. It was a great year. Fantastic year. Closed really strong. Yeah. Yeah, and we- One after another. Closed really strong. Yeah.

Yeah, and we- One after another. We added this location. Mm-hmm. That was a big deal. That was scary. That was a big change, a big challenge. Yeah. And we're embracing it.

Yeah. It's nice. I like how it's going. 2024. Oh my gosh. I can't believe I forgot to say this. Do you know that the Pantone color of the year was announced?

Okay, so I saw a comment yesterday. Okay. That was like, when is Monica gonna talk about Pantone? They were like, nervous and worried. Yeah, I'm so sorry it's taken me this long. Okay. But do you know what it is? Black. No, close.

What? It's called mocha mousse, which is basically mocha mouse, which is basically brown mouse. Is it the color of your skin? It's brown. There's a lot of shades of brown. Okay, fine. Hold up the Pantone color to your cheeks.

It's not really, but no, that one's little. Modest moose, what's it called? It's called Mocha. Miniature moose? Mocha, mocha moose. Mocha moose. It's not as dark as yours, so. I'm doing tongue-tie.

Both. This is a holiday. Do do do, and boppy dee bop. Okay, but it's a little more pink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a great sign. That we're going into the Browns with Pantone? That they picked- Brown mouse? Brown mouse.

That's a good omen. That is a good omen. It's gonna be an incredible year. Yeah, I think so. For all of the people who listen, it's gonna be a great year. What do you do with that color? Are you ordering items now in that color?

Like, do you adjust anything in your life? Yes, that's the whole, you know, it's my background on my phone. Okay, so that's one thing you do. That's an actionable step. That's the whole, that's what I do. Okay, there's nothing else. It's not like, when they announce this color,

are there collaborations where now different companies, you can order the Pantone, Moose. Yeah, sometimes. Mocha Moose. Moosenuckle. They'll do some collabs. Sometimes there's often a mug. I might get that this year.

Yeah. And yeah, so I make the background of my phone the color. You know what I would call that color? And again, I know this is xenophobic. It's not really, but nude. That color just looks like nude to me, like nude before they got wise, that's not what everyone looks like nude,

but nude undergarments. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's almost like a peach. Yeah, that's not what everyone looks like nude, but nude undergarments. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's almost like a peach. Yeah, that's more peach. That's more what this year's was. That's this year, that's not Moosenuckle. Uh-uh. Oh, I thought you already had it.

No, I don't get to put it on until January 1st. Okay, okay, okay, all right. They have a bunch of collabs already. They have Motorola phone, they have Joybird, Libratone headphones, Pantone and all those brands. Oh my God. Do they have the mug? They have a million things, so yeah, probably.

Okay, great. Oh, I wish they made an iPhone case in it. See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That would be great because then the wallpaper, everything would be brown mouse. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Anyway, this year's, that's more nude to me. I mean, the color.

Yeah, the one year on the app looks very nude. Yeah, and the mocha mousse is nude for a brown person. Light brown person. Light brown person, light brown person. Light brown person, colorism. It's even, it's even in pink. Whatever, I embrace this as me. Okay, that, yeah.

Wait, hold that up again. Now it looks darker. Oh, this is much, what has happened? Are you sure? I think you might've held up the pink. I can't, I promise. It's because when you zoom in, it's for some reason it looks.

Something goes, zoom out, it's like 10 shades darker. That's almost your skin color. Yeah, so there you go. That's great. Okay, two facts. One, she got her business degree for $750, a trimester at UCLA. Now, I made a mistake when I checked this fact before. When I type in now, UCLA business degree cost,

it says the total cost of the MBA program is $128,000 per year, including tuition and living expenses. The tuition is $78,000 per year. Could it have quadrupled since the last time you Googled it? I must have, it must have been not the MBA program that I looked at. It must have been regular tuition. Cause I Googled this now like eight times

because I was also confused. That's wild. All right, let's just say the last time you looked at it up, it was 22 grand a year. Yeah, so obviously I looked up the wrong thing. Yeah, so I don't know. Who knows? But I-

Just go there and then find out. When you get the bill, tell us. All right, and then why are they called sides? In acting, sides refers to a specific part of a script given to actors for auditions because historically, actors would only receive their own lines from a scene, essentially just their side of the dialogue, which helped protect the full script from being copied

or shared with competitors, especially during Shakespeare's time when printing was limited, hence the term sides. We also discovered that he's married, his wife's name is Anne Hathaway. That's crazy, still adjusting to that info. That is shocking, and I'm surprised that I didn't know that. Because you're an Anne Hathaway super fan?

No, because I had to take a lot of Shakespeare. Right, from your Shakespearean knowledge. I should have known that, maybe I did and I blocked it, I don't know, lot of Shakespeare. Right, from your Shakespearean knowledge. I should have known that maybe I did and I blocked it. I don't know, but Anne Hathaway, well, she is a style icon. We need to interview her to get to the bottom of whether or not that was intentional or not. I agree, I agree, I agree. It would kind of confirm the story I've made up

about her in my head. Okay, well. Which I feel like she was just born to be an actor. Right. Like I feel like she's probably been acting since she was one years old. Yeah, I mean Princess Diaries, she was just two years old. Okay, is that her real age?

No, I didn't see it. No, but she was young. Okay. Not as young as Pepsi Girl. No. I would love to interview her and ask her that. Me too. Please, Ann.

Even if the they interviews 30 seconds and you tell us whether that was intentional or not, we'll take what we can get. Or if she wants to come in as Ann Hathaway, Shakespeare's wife. I'll dress up as Bill Shakespeare. That would be cool. Yeah.

Who could I be? They didn't, I don't think they have many brown. I will dress up as a piece of poop on the floor. What? Because they didn't have very many brown people. You are so mean people of color. And I'm here to be an advocate and an ally. We're trying to be true to the times.

I am very disappointed. I know who I'll be, a butler. Okay. Cambermaid? Because they had Indian servants. Okay. Cambermaid? Cause they had Indian. Servants? Yeah.

They did. I think. I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure back then, England, cause they owned India. Uh. Uh. Listen, I'll be a poop.

No, no, no. Piece of poop. No, you'll be a moose knuckle, Panto moose knuckle. Pantone moose knuckle. Wow. All right. Well, we aren't going to do this again until, I guess the holiday special, but that'll be a little different.

Yeah. And then next year, 2025. Brown mouse is good. Your 50th year. Oh my God. So many good things. Even age number for me. I love that.

Yeah. Brown mouse. Yeah. For you. And 2025 feels really sharp. It's a quarter of a century. Yeah. Yeah, there's something about you being 50

and it being 25, that's nice. Yeah, because I was born in 75. Works out perfectly. 25, 50, 75. Yeah, all quarters. You should be more excited about that. All right. 25, 50, 75. Yeah, all quarters. You should be more excited about that. All right. All right, love you.

Love you. ["Wonderful Music"] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.