Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Cynthia Erivo

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Cynthia Erivo (Wicked, Harriet, The Color Purple) is an award-winning actor and singer. Cynthia joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the vibes of South London, how she feels about people calling her cute, and her desire to connect with the audience when she’s on stage. Cynthia and Dax talk about the differences in acting in dramas vs comedies, the burdens of doing political roles, and why she picked extensive makeup over CGI for Wicked. Cynthia explains if she prefers songs led by lyrics or music, how she experiences synesthesia, and how much she loves Ariana Grande. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. We have the great privilege of seeing Wicked early.

What a dream. And our guest today, Cynthia Arrevo, is so dynamic and so powerful and so infectious and intoxicating and euphoria inducing. I fell so in love with her in this movie. She's so good. So good in the movie. She's such a cool person.

She's also like, she just hosted the CFDA Awards. That's a huge fashion thing. She's so good in the movie. She's such a cool person. She's also like, she just hosted the CFDA awards. That's a huge fashion thing. She's very cool. And then she arrived and she over-delivered. You have seen her in Harriet, Windows, Bad Times at El Royale, The Color Purple on Broadway. She's won all the awards. And of course, November 22nd,

just in time for the big turkey day, Wicked. You're gonna wanna run out and see it. Buy your tickets now, pre-order. If you didn't pre-order a month ago, you should already be panicked. Yeah, panic. Please enjoy Cynthia Revo. We are supported by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform

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That's Squarespace.com slash DAX to get started today. How long have you been doing this? We launched in February of 2018. Almost seven years. Yeah. You're many people's favorite. Oh, thank you. We try to do the opposite of clickbaity, even talk shows, which we love.

You just go in and you do your thing and then you get out and there's no context and things blow up. Trying to sort of be the antidote to that. Thank you for doing that. Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, for us too. Things get so out of control. Yes, they do. Getting worse by the second. I don, for us too. Things get so out of control. Yes, they do.

Getting worse by the second. I don't know what the heck is happening. People are seeking out the worst of things. It's very strange. It's a little bit of a, we say like outrage addiction. Yeah, and really unhealthy. It is. We're in sort of an interesting time where I feel like celebrities, especially newer celebrities,

are starting to push back and question fandom in a really interesting way. It's like where the boundary is. Exactly. Where you get to be a part of my life, and then when I get to have my life for myself. Yeah. That you're a person.

It's like reminding people that humanity exists. Yeah. You can be a human being. Exactly. It's sad that people that humanity exists. Yeah. You can be a human being. Exactly. It's sad that we have to remind people, but... Good morning. Good morning. Do it.

Do it. Oh, man. Oh, you smell so good. God, I smell like sweat. I just went on a hike. You are well done. Oh, thank you. Well, this is a long time coming.

Oh, my goodness. You're a miniature too. I just went on a hike. Yeah, well done. Oh, thank you. Well, this is a long time coming. Oh, my goodness. You're a miniature, too. You are a miniature. You're in good company. Loni, are you jealous? She has even bigger pants on than you.

I know. Her fashion's unreal. I'm Dax, by the way. Nice to meet you, welcome. We've already talked about bags. The fashion is outrageous. Do you wanna sit down for two seconds, because I don't have the knowledge base to talk about what I thought was really funny while I was researching you.

Alicia, that's so cool. I try to tell him all the time that he only has some of the info. Okay, Cynthia, I was watching an interview with you, and you had mentioned that you were about to do some Sommeheim and Kristen was readying herself for the day and she stopped everything. She's like, who is she playing? What's happening?

Well, specifically because it was night music, which is my favorite. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who did you play? Petra. Of course. Do you want to air your grievance? Well, my grievance was I was really struggling to figure out who you were going to play because I was like, you have the moxie for Desiree,

though you're not anywhere near. Near the age for it. Right. So your grievance, as I recalled, was you only played the child in that. Is that the same musical? Yes. So I've done night music twice.

I did it at the Kennedy Center during Sondheim Rep a million years ago, and then I did it at the LA Opera House. That's cool. But both times I played Frederica. What? Who's 13? Who's 13 years old. The whole time I dream of playing Anne.

Yeah, no, Anne's phenomenal. Well, now's your chance. Go, go, go. What you. Sing off. No, as the sweet imbecility stumbles so lavishly onto her lap. Yes. But here's your chance. Go, go, go, go. Sing off. No, as the sweet imbecility stumbles so lavishly onto her lap. Yes, but here's the thing.

Dax informed me pretty bluntly this morning. I can't pull off Anne either. He said, you're way more of a Desiree. I said, what do you know? First of all, I didn't say that because I don't know the names of the characters. But what I did say is that you are closer in age. This is bad news, I'm gonna tell you.

You're closer in age to 63 than you are 24. True. I said, now look, you could put on a ton of makeup and play 24. They could do some prosthetics and age you down. Or you could go out on stage with no makeup and you'd be playing 64. Can you believe?

I'm offended for you. It's ludicrous, That's why I say it. Because obviously she's a beauty. It's like you aged backwards. It's very strange. It's a good joke because it's absolutely the most untrue thing in the world. I think you could still play Anne. I couldn't pull off Anne at all. Petra was perfect. Wait, what's Petra's solo?

The Miller's Son. Oh, I don't know. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You've already done it or you're about to do it? I did it at Lincoln Center. Oh, it was a one-off? It was a one-off. Well, four nights.

Did you want for more or were you happy it was only four nights? I was happy it was only four nights because it was manic. I was doing 59 other things at the same time. On one day, I opened something in the morning, did something in the afternoon, which was like a full 20-minute set show for Pride Weekend, and ran from the Pride Weekend show

to the Lincoln Center. That was the Stonewall. That's right, to do night music. And that's a dangerous song if your head is not straight. It is such a wordy song. There was actually a night where I had to stop, because it's also dangerous if you're not moving at the right speed If it slows down too much your brain switches on it's one of those songs that you need your brain to be on autopilot

So you can actually just reel the words off and if it slows down and it felt like it was slowing to a grinding Halt it's like that weird sort of oh my god. I'm in the room. What are the words again? Is that what I'm saying? And I just was like, okay, we have to stop. I am a big, big advocate for if it's going wrong, stop. Wow. Interesting, cause I was just gonna ask, do you have a mode where you'll just, you know the melody still,

and you just kind of make up some words until we find our way back. We're not gonna do a car crash. I can't. I'm gonna say, you know what, I'm gonna pull over to the side of the road. We're not gonna do a car crash. I can't. I'm gonna say, you know what? I'm gonna pull over to the side of the road. We're gonna just start again. Let's get back into the right space.

And I'm gonna take you exactly where you're supposed to go in the right fashion. We're not focused here. Let's regroup. Yeah, we're swerving too much here. It's not good. We're all over the road. That's not what at least I was taught in musical theater.

It's like keep it going. And it's the wrong thing to be taught. Sometimes you keep going. Sometimes if you can and you can get back into it quickly, keep going. But if you need to stop and refocus, stop and refocus because the audience will say, oh, you know it too.

You were experiencing it too. Okay, so I wasn't insane. That means you're taking care of me. I can trust you. Oh, I love that. What you're saying is I'm not gonna gaslight you audience. This is all fucked up. I'm not gonna lie. This ain't it.

And this is not what I wanna do. This is not what you wanna listen to. We're gonna go back to the beginning. It also says that I'm in control of this and I've got you. I won't take you down this road where it doesn't make sense. What if you win so far is the same. I want everyone to reenter.

Go out in the lobby and mill about, we're gonna ring the bell. That's too far. Then come in. Maybe too far. Okay, just to be provocative for one second. Go on. One second.

For two hours. Did you see American Symphony, the John Baptiste doc? Yes, yes I did. What a beautiful doc, right? Beautiful. But if you remember, he's at Carnegie Hall and all the power goes out. Yes. And he's fucked. I and all the power goes out. Yes.

And he's fucked. I can't imagine anything more stressful. And then talk about 27 things going on in his life. He's got the Grammys, his wife, and then he starts letting his internal emotions come out on this piano keyboard, and he's processing this frustration and this everything. And then slowly it starts fusing with this melody,

and then it becomes beautiful, and then magically the power comes back on. There is also some room for the chaos if embraced to become something unique and interesting. However, what he didn't do was continue on with what was already pre-planned. What he did was start something totally new. You've won that, checkmate.

You see what I'm saying? Great counter. Which means that he was completely in control of the situation. He said, what we were planning, out the window. There's no power, I can't do this. And then just, let me filter whatever I can filter through in the present moment. Well, listen, I just wanted to bring Kristin in

because the whole house was a flutter today. Now, Kristin's in, she believes this ruse. Mysteriously, our 11-year-old had an emotional fit this morning that precluded her from going to school on time because she knew somebody was coming to the house at 11. Is she here? No, we had to send her. I fell for it, hook, line, and sink her.

I was like, oh, she's having a swing, okay. We're gonna let her regulate, I'm gonna stand back, I'm gonna let her get it all out. She's crying the whole nine yards. We finally calm down on the ride to school, she goes, is Cynthia the 11 a.m. or the 2 p.m.? That's what she said. I had a feeling you guys were gonna keep them home

from school today. I used my optimistic outlook, I said this will not be the last time. It won't. It won't. We're gonna double date, there's gonna be some other time where you will be able to be in her presence and say what she means to you because you mean quite a bit to her.

But hun, if Brad Pitt was coming over to clean the pool at 11 a.m. and I mysteriously couldn't make my appointment at 10, you would go immediately, this is horseshit, he just wants to watch Brad Pitt clean our pool. That's true, but I immediately take on their emotions. She started to get dysregulated and then I started to get dysregulated

and I was like chugging coffee to wake up, be like, how do we calm everybody down this morning? Then I called your sister to take the other one in. And I was evil-ass upstairs journaling. And I was listening to all the machinations and I was like, this is horseshit, but it's gonna work. I didn't even realize until really this moment what was pulled over on me.

Oh my gosh. Listen, some people will be disappointed, but that's something to be quite proud of our child. Well done. Snow walls. That she gave it a shot for something, dude. That is sweet. And also I feel really cool.

Good. You are really cool. I feel really cool that your 11-year-old was like, yeah. And you're bringing something for everybody because then you showed up in this outfit and now Monica's all on the ropes. She's fucked up. You're more than an outfit to me though.

Don't let him do that. You got us's fucked up. You're more than an outfit to me though. Don't let him do that. You got us all fucked up. This place is a titter. I think we should call it. That was a great episode. We can only go down from here. So what do you think about this really bad sample set

I have, but 30 year old London, what do we share? Endlessly interested in whatever weird cultural differences we have, because it's misleadingly similar. As in between here and America? Yeah, yeah, right? You're like, oh yeah, English, shows, blah, blah, blah. But then there's really interesting differences.

It's weird because when I first moved here, I moved to New York and that felt the most similar to London specifically. But the thing that America and the UK as a whole have very similarly is that there are cities, places that it feels really multicultural and it's really like busy, and then you move further out and it becomes really disparate. I'm not having the same experience in London that someone is having in, I don't know, Yorkshire. Yorkshire's a beautiful, beautiful place. The vibe

is very different and it just feels different. So it's the same as if I'm here in LA or I'm here in New York, it's very different than if I'm in Georgia. London and New York have more in common than London and Essex than New York and Georgia. Yes. I get that. The foods are different. We just have different food because we have to.

Why do you have to? Well, there are certain things that we're just not allowed to have in our food that you're okay to have in food here. Like chemically. Chemically. Yeah. We're not allowed to have certain things. that you're okay to have in food here. Oh, like chemically. Oh, like poisons. Yeah, chemically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like not allowed to have some things.

Yeah, but look how big and strong we are. Look at the UFC. Well, I don't think we have, do we have the UFC? Yes, Conor McGregor. Yeah. I'm scared of him. I'm scared of him a little bit, but I do think like some of his bravado.

He wants you to be scared of him, yeah. Cause he's scared. I feel like there's a part of him that's just like the most gentle, sweetest thing in the world. Well, this might interest you interest you we interviewed him last year and my main curiosity was like what event happens before you dedicate your life To martial arts and so I had asked him and he said no I walked into this gym at 12 years old I'm like, yeah, but why do you walk into a boxing gym? What happened immediately before and he's like, okay Well, actually I like this girl. She's older than me. She liked me

I was walking on the street with her, then the older boys, one of whom was her boyfriend, pulled up in a car, three older guys, got out and beat the shit out of them. And then he goes, I didn't really fight back. And I'm like, now that makes sense. When you're trying to heal that embarrassment in front of a girl you like,

where you didn't defend yourself, that's a motivation to continue on a life trajectory. And so yeah, I think that little boy is underneath all of that. But boy. Still trying to defend himself. It's really gone off the rails a little bit. I think so, yeah.

It's just like gone one step too far, but oh, I hope he finds a little bit of healing. Yeah, he has little kids. I think that can be a route into it. But I think there's something that has to be healed within himself first. It's also easily passed on to his kids. And that anger, that dismay, it's easily rubbed off.

Well, I say this all the time. I'm glad we have girls and not boys because yeah, I think the impulse when that was your life is to go like, well, if I don't pass this on to him, he'll suffer the way I did. And you're just starting it all up again because you don't have any faith in the future.

I get it. Do you have kids? I don't, no. Do you want't have any faith in the future. I get it. Do you have kids? I don't, no. Do you want them? I don't think so. I'm good with kids though. I'm also on the fence. You guys are the exact same age.

Yeah, 37. And you and I are only six days apart in January. No way. Do you believe in all the astrology stuff or no? I think there's a part of me that does believe in it because I'm very Capricorn to a T, which disturbs me somewhat because it annoys me. That's what Capricorns do.

They're annoyed by the fact that it's accurate. The predictability. I hate it. I'm like, okay, so I'm stubborn, good. Overachieving, yes, understood. Do I like nice things? Yes, I like nice things. Am I in charge all the time?

All the time. Do I plan people's lives? Yes. Am I emotionally people's lives? Yes. Am I emotionally adept sometimes? Yes. Do I keep my feelings to myself for a really long time? Yes. Am I working through it?

Yes. Am I insufferable? You bet your ass I am. Completely. Am I right a lot of the times? Yes. Does it annoy people? Yes.

Do I like saying I told you so? Not always. Okay, great. I love you, thanks for stopping by. You don't have to sneak out, you can come back if you want to. She has a whole schedule. Oh, enjoy. Thank always. Okay, great. I love you, thanks for stopping by. You don't have to sneak out, you can come back if you want to. She has a whole schedule. Oh, enjoy. Bye, buddy. Bye.

Bye, I love you. Bye. Ah. Did you get on with Michaela? Cole? Yes. I've known her since I was 16. I love her so much. I read her book. She's one of the most phenomenal human beings in the world.

Well, for people that don't know Michaela, what was her incredible show? That was the best show of the year on HBO. I May Destroy You. I May Destroy You. If you've not seen I May Destroy You. You have to see it. Also, before you see I May Destroy You,

see Chewing Gum, which I'm in. Oh. For like an episode or two. But it's just brilliant. Oh, I'm so excited. And people don't realize that is originally based on a long-form poem that she wrote. I remember the first time I saw this poem,

because she performed it live. I can't even remember where we were, but it was like somewhere in Holloway or something, like this small little theater, and it was like a one-woman poem, where she played all these different roles. And then it just expanded into this TV show. She's like a wunderkind.

Yeah, there's no one like her. Where did you meet? East London. I wanna say we met at one of the theaters or something. You were just both into? Yeah. Are you comparable ages? I think she's maybe a year or so younger than me.

Younger? Yeah. What a bitch. Yeah, but I love her. She'd written some songs or poems with songs and asked me to sing. I think it was when I was dancing, she asked me to dance to one of her songs

that she was performing at a church or something random. And we just stayed in contact and we've been friends since then. Give us a simple explanation of London. So you grew up in South London. You said you met in East London. Yeah. So I was born Southwest London, a place called Stockwell. I went to school in South London, Clapham South, but I moved to East London

when I was about 14, about Upton park, East Ham, thatappan South, but I moved to East London when I was about 14, about Upton Park, East Ham, that kind of area, but properly East London. Your whole family did, or just you went to a school or something? We all moved to East London. Your sister, your mother, and you? Yes.

My mom bought a house in East London, and that's when we moved. That was a really big moment for us, because it was like, oh, we have our own house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the vibe in South London? Like, what are the stereotypes about these pockets of London? I thought that South London was pretty chill. I really enjoyed it. I remember there's open spaces, those are like cool little parks that you can go to. It's very walkable.

You can walk all around South London and mostly downhill. And just never come home to avoid walking uphill. The bus is your best friend at that point. It's lovely going, coming back is a damn nightmare or you take a tube. There's loads of cool outdoors activities where I lived. You could go go-karting, stuff like that. Go-karting. And East London is really vibrant.

It's busy and alive, loads of different cultures. Is it like the East Village in New York? No, I don't know if there's anywhere like it. You have the African community and different African communities. You've got Gunnians, the Nigerians. You have the Pakistanis. You have Bangladesh. You have the Jamaicans there as well.

There's like a smorgasbord of different types of people, which means that there's different types of food everywhere. And like it's super vibey. I can go to the corner of East Ham right after the tube station. I know that I'm going to walk into the store that has all of the saris and all of the 24 karat golds but then if I cross the road, there's the shop that has Jamaican patties and if I walk far enough, there's the auntie that does the Nigerian materials.

It's like that and then there's the market which has everything. This is what Kirby's mom's shop was, I think. I love it in East Ham because of how easy it is to just get everything. But then next door, Larry, who's like the plumber, who fixes your roof and your backyard if he needs it, who's very, very Essex, who sounds like this and wants to talk to you about what the weather's been like, is also there.

So you have all of these people who sort of exist in the same way and then West Ham stadiums over there. What you call soccer, we call football. Yeah, right, which goes off. It goes off. Yeah, especially in the, well, you were born in 87. Maybe that had passed, but there was the whole hoodlum era. It felt like early 90s, maybe.

Early 90s when I was still very, very young. I think it was Arsenal, that terrible, awful thing that happened at the games where people were like, there was a stampede. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was terrible. And they were all wearing Burberry, I just learned this recently.

That was their thing. Yeah, something happened. Counterintuitive. But because Burberry was not that, then it became part of that culture. I think it's been in a way reclaimed and changed again. Well, Beckham has saved it, kind of. Beckham saved it, yeah.

Yeah, what a style icon. We're gonna give him props for that. That's what got me to buy Burberry sweater. Monica got me a beautiful one for Christmas. I did. It's changed hands enough that the style has changed enough for it to become, for the aperture in it to become a wider.

Right, okay, so what age was mom when she moved here? Mom and dad both are from Nigeria. Yes. Mom was 15 during the Civil War. Yes, I believe so, yeah, from war. And my mom moved to London when she was 24. Had she already been a nurse in Nigeria? She did all of that when she got here.

She came at 24 with who? Herself and her younger sister. When she landed, what was the game plan? I don't know if she had a game plan. She was just like, arrive? Mission complete. What do I do? And then she was told that she was to do catering,

to which she said yes for a second, and then was like, I don't know if catering's with me. And then studied nursing at King's College, became a nurse, then expanded and kept expanding and then got better and better and then started doing her papers for what we call health visiting. There's a position in the UK, I always explain it because I think it's a really beautiful position that everyone should have, called a health visitor. And it is a nurse or a nurse who's at the level of what you call a sister at this point, who

can make visits to people's homes who have just had children. She will take care of mother and child, make sure the vitals are good. Her particular area of expertise was cognitive health. So it's, are your children developing in the right way? Are they able to pick things up? Can they spot color from birth to the age of three before they go to kindergarten? Oh my God, what a preventative step that probably saves a trillion dollars. That's different though than a postpartum doula.

What is it? Do you know what a postpartum doula is? No, but it's weird because I think those are part of her duties to take care of mother right after birth. When mother comes home with a baby, when parents come home with a baby, that first couple of weeks, months, my mom is the person that you see.

That's so amazing. Right. Yeah, weighs the baby the whole lot. Probably knows about breastfeeding and all that stuff. Breastfeeding the whole lot. Yeah, I don't know why we don't have more of that because that's the whole thing. You take a baby home and you're like,

I don't know what to do with it. That's when my mom steps in. Yeah. So she will tell you what's next. Yeah, that would be of great comfort. Every parent has the moment in the car ride home from the hospital and you're like, holy shit, what's in her backseat?

Why did they give this to me? The thing's way too fucking fragile to come to our house. Where are the instructions for this? The thing needs to be in the ICU. Look how tiny it is. I don't know why you don't have this position here because it's so helpful.

Because that bit between birth and kindergarten, Look at you, look how tiny it is. I don't know why you don't have this position here because it's so helpful. Cause that bit between birth and kindergarten, it seems like there's nothing in between. Yeah. Which is so odd to me because my mom is the person in between. That means that a parent who has postpartum depression, someone who might have been already depressed,

someone who is finding it hard to latch, all of that, that's my mom. Oh yeah, and if you fuck up the nutritional aspect of the first three years, like we now know, there's so much developmental stuff down river that doesn't happen if certain things aren't met. That would be her. And she's very good at it. She's like the child whisperer. It's very strange. I would imagine just to compare and contrast that to someone who is in hospice care, right? Where your full-time job is watching people die. The weight of that's gotta be something else.

She is almost the opposite. She's seen all the excitement and the fun and the hopefulness and the future. Every day. Do you think it has infected her in a positive way? I think so. She loves children and children love her. It's really magical to watch.

They all just sort of go to her. Is she supremely disappointed you're not gonna give her a grandchild? I was gonna ask that. She might be, and I don't know if she knows yet. I think I have to break it to her. But the thing is, I want to satisfy that need in a very different way, because I do want to be the person

that's able to put people through school, take care of young people who need care. I do think that's a gift that's come from her, because I do think I am actually very good with kids and good with young people who need care. I do think that's a gift that's come from her, because I do think I am actually very good with kids and good with young people. I want to still be nurturing without necessarily being the biological parent. Yes, and still be able to have a date night

whenever you desire. Correct. So take a vacation, that sounds fun. Do you know what I love? I love what Oprah's been able to do, where she essentially has been taking care of these young women, building them up enough for them to move into whatever careers they want to move into. And

they're all excellent women. I know I'm making sound. I feel very good about the sound I'm making. I like the reaction that people are having because of it. So other people are reacting positively. So I know that something is good. I don't necessarily know that it's the most tuneful sound. I just know that I'm having a great time doing it.

And I'm seeing people's faces, smiles, applause is happening, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Approval. There's nothing like being little and going like, wait, I have control. And I feel so disenfranchised and powerless as this little person, but this is a moment in time.

I'm in charge. Right. Ooh, it's good. It's very good. I think for a little bit, I was just chasing that because it was nice. Yes. I'll sing for anyone then.

You're not aware of it then, but when I look back, I also think it's very rare in your life where you can be in control And I think singing certainly has that it just happened to me. We saw wicked. I'm like, okay I didn't see the musical I don't love musicals and then fucking limitless Fucking come on, let's go let it rip and I'm in you took complete control of me and whatever baggage I come in with. That's so powerful. But the thing is, I don't think I've ever thought of it as control necessarily.

I think I've always thought of it as a way to encourage and connect people with emotion. Well, that's the positive way, but I think you're in Capricorn denial. Maybe. Maybe I am. And by the way, it can be all things. Yeah. It's not singular, it's not binary. It's not like And by the way, it can be all things. Yeah.

It's not singular, it's not binary. It's not like, oh, you like it because of the control or you like it because you make people you love happy. That's part of it. I think I love the conversation of singing. I always think there's a real big conversation going on, especially when I'm singing live. It's a big old conversation.

I can see it because I'm looking at people's eyes. I am urging them to connect with me. I'm trying to tell you this story. I can scream, I can yell, I can whisper, I can caress with my voice, I can do all of those things, but I want the energy exchange. And I guess selfishly, that energy exchange is like a high for me, it's a rush.

And when I can see that it's happening, there's nothing better than that. It is a really vulnerable place to stand and be like, I'm gonna open up myself and I'm gonna tell you my stories with my voice. It's just me and that's always a really vulnerable place to be, people don't realize that. When you have to sing in front of an orchestra,

they either love you or hate you. The orchestra. The orchestra. Why would they hate you? Because some singers will come in and there's an entitled thing that people come to an orchestra with where it's like, I'm the singer, you play behind me.

You're serving me. You're supporting me. Exactly. I'm the star. When actually it's the complete opposite. It's not that at all. You're all in it together. The music doesn't make sense without them

and they don't make sense without you. They can play the song, but the lyrics communicate as well, but they help with the emotion. If you don't do it together, it will feel disjointed. I always get really nervous before I have the conversation, but I always urge myself to do it. Before we even start rehearsal, the first thing I ask the orchestra to do

is to let me come with you and let's do this together, because I'm not gonna do this alone. And if you're sat there not enjoying this, everyone's gonna feel it. Because there's 20 of them and only one of me, And if you're sat there not enjoying this, everyone's gonna feel it. Because there's 20 of them and only one of me. And if 20 of them aren't enjoying it and if they can't go with it, their audience will feel that immediately.

And we're off in the wrong direction. Now I know nothing about this just from the outside. Is there knee jerk fear that we're playing math, right? We have the sheet music in front of us and it goes this way to this temple. But the singer has more latitude and the singer can individualize it. The saxophonist can't individualize it

nor can the oboist. So is it that sometimes they're like, all right, this person's gonna come in and they're gonna do whatever the fuck they want and we're stuck in this grid and then we're gonna try to catch them but then we're gonna fall back. Is that their fear that they're gonna be doing something

that is different from what you're doing? Yes, and I think the actual fear is that the singer who comes in who does have the latitude isn't respectful of the fact that they have maths to do as well. They have a box to stay in. You can have your latitude, but if you're aware of,

I need to make sure I make it back to here. You gotta stick your landing every time. And if you don't. I just got a point. That means you really agree. Exactly. You're pointing right at my face. If you don't and you're just all over the place and you're not paying attention,

you're not looking at the conductor, you're not listening. You're in your own selfish world. Exactly. Now we're not doing this together. Now you're just doing it over the hell you wanna do and I'm over here playing these notes. We should just leave.

Why are we even here? You're doing this on your own. You don't need us. And what percentage, if you just had to guess, how many do you think are respectful? I think very few. A lot of singers just get excited that they get to sing in front of an orchestra.

And they're nervous. And they're nervous. They haven't really done it before. Sometimes an orchestra is a novelty to a lot of singers. And in their defense, if it doesn't work out, no one's going like, the oboe is sucked tonight. They're gonna say the singer's sucked. You are carrying the weight of the whole performance.

Yes, but the weight becomes a hell of a lot lighter when you know it's not just you. Right. When you say you wanted to connect, that's your main goal when you're up there. Did you feel like when you were younger, you had a hard time connecting outside of that realm? Was it an escape?

I mean, it doesn't seem like it because you're easy to talk to, but I don't know if you were introverted or shy and that was your outlet. I wasn't shy. I was very bossy. Yeah. Baby boss. Yeah. So was Monica.

Yeah. Oh yeah. I was very bossy. Yeah. Baby boss. Yeah. So was Monica. Yeah. Oh yeah. I was very bossy. I knew exactly what I needed to do, and what I wanted, and if I didn't like something, I was the worst version of a Capricorn that could exist. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother.

But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is

not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C True Crime shows like Morbid early and add free right now by joining Wondry+. Check out Exhibit C in the Wondry app for all your True Crime listening. Hey Armcharies, quick question for you. Have you ever stopped to wonder who came up with all your true crime listening. It's all about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with and the people who brought them to life. Like Super Mario, the best selling video game character ever. He's only a thing because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye.

Or Jack, how about McDonald's Happy Meal? Believe it or not, the Happy Meal was dreamed up by a mom in Guatemala. Every week on The Best Idea Yet, you'll discover the surprising stories behind the most viral products of all time, while picking up real business insights along the way. We guarantee you'll be that person at your next dinner party dropping knowledge bombs at the table. Follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the best idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. You have some Virgo in you too. I'm feeling, yeah.

Probably. I would just say what I thought. And sometimes that would not be nice. It would not be nice. Yeah. I wasn't a mean kid. I just was really honest all the time. Yeah.

Can I defend us for a second? Yes. So it's an easy mix up. What I value the honest all the time. Yeah, can I defend us for a second? Yes. So it's an easy mix up. What I value the most is the truth. Please. And I prefer an inconvenient truth than I do a flowery lie. Just don't do it to me.

But I have to acknowledge for other people, that's not the case. They're not interested in that and that's also fair. Because it depends on where you're coming from. You have that, Dax has that hang up, I guess I'll call it an obsession or whatever. Character defect. No, it's not a defect,

but because you were told things that weren't true and you had to figure it out. I felt like there's a lot of deception. Yeah, you had to figure out what was true and what wasn't true and so you seek the truth. So it comes from somewhere that need. Yeah, we're blaming January, but maybe there's more. Yeah, I think it might be a little more than January.

Because we're all doing that. The best way to survive in the world, and so why Truth For You? I think it comes from my own past and my history with my dad and all of those things. Maybe feeling a little lied to in that expectation of a parent and not getting it. Do you have this chip on your shoulder?

Do you remember being young and them telling you some kid safe thing that you saw right through and it felt so disrespectful. Like, I know what's going on and you're trying to fool me. Did you have that sense of like, you're treating me too young? I know what's going on. Yeah, sometimes. I was a clever kid,

so I didn't necessarily need much babying. So when a person did baby me, it still pisses me off. Oh, how sweet of you. I can't stand this. Yeah. Yeah, it's rough. Please don't call me cute. I haven't been cute in a long time.

What depends on what your association, what the word cute is. A small squirrel, cute. My dogs, who are five pounds and eight pounds, cute. Vulnerable too. Vulnerable. You know, some babies, cute. Do you think that's a small person complex thing?

I think it's a small person complex thing to other people. I know I'm short. I'm very aware of being a small five foot one person, but it's when people think because you're small, you're also very young and dumb. The two things don't go together just because I'm small. You know what I mean? I'm good. I have that too. I'm like, don't underestimate this. But then I think sometimes I'm too critical or harsh

or you need to respect me. Do you ever feel like you swing? I try not to swing. When someone's like, you look so much bigger on stage, I understand what that means. I think if you'd told me that 10 years ago, I would have been like, what do you mean? But now I understand what that means. I think if you'd told me that 10 years ago, I would've been like, what do you mean? But now I understand what you mean by someone's presence

when they're in performance mode, as opposed to when you meet them. They're two different things. So the look of someone changes when they're in their sort of element. They do seem bigger. You can't help it. And that's what happens. So I totally understand what that means

This is all very comedic though, because that's your bag. That's what you were handed and that's what you're dealing with So mine is universally when I meet someone in real life, they go. Oh my god You're so much bigger in real life. So weirdly I'm so much bigger in real life than they see me on screen So if I wanted if I'm in the mood, I could go like, I'm not powerful on screen or I'm not deliberate. I could let that be a whole thing. If you choose, you could really take a personal or something's going on.

And what's really complicates it all, not for me as much, because I am given the best benefit of the doubt that a human on planet earth can be given. I'm a tall white dude. But if I'm short in black in British, how am I to know what's actually at play here? Is it just normal humanness

or is it some kind of bigotry? What's happening? It's hard to know. It's very hard to know. And at any point, it could be either one of those things. Yes. Or all of it. Yeah.

Cause sometimes it is, you're so sweet. Oh my goodness. I didn't expect you to be- You're so sweet or you're so articulate or you're so smart. I'm sure you, yeah. I mean, these are very dog whistly. You're so well spoken. Oh my God. I love the way you speak.- You're so sweet or you're so articulate or you're so smart. That's so, yeah. I mean, these are very dog-whistly- You're so well-spoken.

Oh my God, I love the way you speak. How else am I supposed to speak? But what's tricky- What were you expecting? Here's what's tricky. There's the historical context of that comment. Basically, what I'm saying is I was expecting you to sound dumb. Yet, you do speak very appealingly.

Yes. Objectively. Again, how are you to know what the hell's going on? I like to think I'm somewhat discerning and you can tell by the way someone says something and the intention behind it. I think you can always sense it through the way a person approaches you

and what they're trying to say and the context through which they say it. I also just try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I was to run around going, what are you trying to say? The whole time, I would be exhausted. And some of this is exhausting as it is. This is not the fight I want to even get into. And sometimes it's just a, yeah, thank you so much.

I think the real move is to just file all of it into, that's their stuff. Yeah, not mine. And then just not my stuff. So my little thing is I'd say at least half the people that come up to me in public, they have come up to me to say, hey, I love your wife.

And I go, oh yeah, me too. I don't really know what else to say. You just flagged me down, but like I guess carried that message onto her. But the truth is many of those people, they don't what else to say. You just flagged me down, but like I guess carried that message onto her. But the truth is many of those people, they don't know what to say. And people are coming up to Krista and saying, I love your husband.

Now she is objectively more famous than me. So I could let that lower my self-esteem or I could go like, oh yeah, people say it to her too. None of it means anything. They're panicked. What they actually wanna say is, I think you're great. And I watch your shows. And I know about you.

And they know what about you. And they wanna have a whole conversation and nothing comes out. Yes, right. But I love your wife. And I know about you. And I know what about you. And they wanna have a whole conversation and nothing comes out. Yes, right. But I love your wife. Yeah, exactly. Now it's all fine. And at some point, you just have to make a decision

for yourself. It's like, well, this could continue to rattle me or I could enjoy my life. Yeah. But if you're a justice warrior, like I am not in the popular sense, but if there's an injustice, I'm running towards. I'm telling you, this is Gaffer Gord's shit. It is, right?

I just won't stand for it. It really is, because I have the same thing. But you suffer from it. I suffer from it. The person doesn't suffer from it. No, they go home afterwards. They're like, okay, that was good. That was a great interaction.

Great. And what they probably wanna really say, and they're not even sure how to say it, is I'm short-circuiting. You're a person that's on my TV that's now in three dimension. It're a person that's on my TV that's now in three dimension. It's a complete collapse of reality for them.

I think a more generous take is that they are actually saying, I've invested part of my life in your life. I know about you. I know you have a wife and I really like her too. And I find you interesting enough that I've given you my time. That's really what they're trying to say, but then that's what comes out. But I do want to enough that I've given you my time. That's really what they're trying to say,

but then that's what comes out. But I do want to say that I am grateful that you, Dax, just said, you recognize that as a tall white straight man, yeah, I added that. You don't know all my stuff. That you can't really imagine what it's like to be in that other position because I have heard people say like, they're just being nice. And I'm like, you haven't had 37 years of practice

to know when someone's being nice and when someone's not. I think it's just great to acknowledge maybe you can't know. I wonder if there's a world in which you just like ask the question. Yeah, are you a racist asshole? Yeah, are you being condescending

or are you watch them short circuit? I don't think I was ever gonna admit this out loud. I only told a single person, I knew Monica would be mad at me. I told Eric, cause he's our shittiest friend and I knew he would maybe agree with this. Now we're telling the world. Now I'm gonna tell the world.

That's fun. Okay. I was not proud of this, but this did happen. I'm at this burger joint down the street for the win. I love it. I'm there by myself, I'm eating a hamburger. There's a man and his wife and two kind of late teens kids. And the man leans over and he goes, I love your wife's commercials. It's cool they let you be in them. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss maybe a minute goes by and I go, hey, did you mean to sound like a dick when you said that to me

or did you just mess up your delivery? Wow. And he goes, what? And I go, well, you said that my wife lets me be in her commercials that I wrote. And I just don't know, do you realize how that sounded or did you just get nervous? And then he kind of panicked and he goes,

yo, we just love all the work you guys do with mental health. And I was like, oh my God. He doesn't know what to do. Oh my God. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. And then y'all, we continue to sit there for another 15 minutes and finish our hamburgers.

You were with this person? I was by myself sitting directly next to the guy. He wasn't even a foot from me. You'd think he would move. There is something in the asking that made him have to think about it. What he said was rude. I've left out a part.

I considered for a moment, he might be trying to make a joke. He might know that's obviously an insult and he's just being familiar with me because he knows me. And maybe a buddy of mine would say that from Detroit. And I think I said, were you meaning to be a dick

or were you trying to be funny? Yes. To which he didn't answer. He said, I said, were you meaning to be a dick or were you trying to be funny? Yes. To which he didn't answer. He said, I like the work you guys do with mental health. I will say that that is a really simple question to ask. And it's actually the simple answer, yes or no. It's a yes or no answer.

And I don't think he knew the answer. I don't think so either. I think he said a joke that he realized could be an insult as well, but thought it was like, okay to say because he felt familiar. And by the time I was asking him, he's already hearing the fight he's having

with his wife on the ride home where she's like, why do you have to fucking open your mouth? I'm him in a lot of situations. I understand that there are people who short circuit and they just don't know what to say. And sometimes some of the sweetest interactions come out of that. My favorite types of those interactions

are those where they just say, I don't know what to say, and I have no words, but you're amazing. Yeah. Because I get it. Yeah. Well that sentence weirdly conveys more emotion than any other one. Exactly.

I'm really overwhelmed. I don't really know what to say, because it's so honest. It's so endearing, and it's so real. There are times when you're like, I don't know what to say here, but I know that this is a really cool moment and I'm glad you're here. And I'm scared right now.

And I'm scared because I don't want to say the wrong thing. It's an honest, emotional reaction. The flip side of that is someone saying something and they say it in the wrong way. And if you look closely enough, you'll see it in their faces that, oh my God, what did I just say? Immediately you'll see it. But faces that, oh my God, what did I just say? Immediately you'll see it. But if that doesn't show up at all, then it's, oh, I said the best thing in the world. And then it's like, did you mean to hurt my feelings?

Or was that just a moment of you trying to connect? That's a little bit better of a way to phrase it instead of where you trying to be a dick. How mad are you at me out of 10? I'm not, I'm not mad. But I do think maybe, oh, did you mean to hurt my feelings? Or were you just trying to be a dick. How mad are you at me out of 10? I'm not. I'm not mad. But I do think maybe, oh, did you mean to hurt my feelings or were you just trying to be funny?

That would have meant a nice vulnerability. That's the most vulnerable. And you're right, there's one answer. There's one answer. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or I just wanted to connect. I'm so sorry, that came out wrong. I should have let the whole thing slide.

I don't think anything productive came out of it. Then I came home and I was like. They did have to think about fame and maybe they won't go to the next person and do something. And say something like that. It's wild. Before you guys came up, we were talking about fame and newer celebrities are pushing back on fame.

The social contract of it all. Yes, they're building a bigger boundary and I think it's very interesting. Well, I imagine you are dealing with something different than me. Well, now currently what we deal with, but prior to this show, when I was just an actor, occasionally people were moved by what I did on Parenthood. They laughed a lot at stuff I did.

They didn't have cathartic emotional breakthroughs. You know, your lane in particular, I think, is going to warrant an asymmetric connection where it's like you really connected with my soul and opened up something and I don't even know what to do with this. We have it from the show. I just did a bunch of meet and greets for my beer company and I met so many fucking beautiful listeners of the show

and they're saying like my brother OD'd or I've repaired my relationship with my parents. They're addicts, you know, this kind of stuff. And I'm presuming that's the level of connection people are having with you. And I'm presuming that's the level of connection people are having with you. And I love it, cherish it, feel so lucky to be receiving it. And it's very emotionally exhausting.

Yeah, I think for me, that particular kind of connection has been happening since the Color Purple, really and truly. So that kind of cathartic release and people's stories and people coming together, breakups, the stories of abuse, those things have come up and people have been really open with me about the things they've been going through because of these women that I've been able to play and the stories that we get to tell. And during my concerts as well, people come together. There's something that happens in these spaces. I'm really grateful that that is what people experience with me, but I do have to be like... survival memoir that's popular. Inevitably, what you're gonna hear when you meet people who loved it is their cancer journey or their parents' cancer journey,

which is totally appropriate, but also it's a lot. You can't carry all those people. And it's very hard not to, because I actually care every time someone takes the time to tell me a story. I'm listening. I feel their feelings, because there's nothing worse

than trying to tell someone a story and them not even bothering to look you in the face. No, then you're invisible. And I never want anyone to feel like that with me. So I take a lot of time to speak with people and be with people after shows. And I can be there for like an hour and just be there with people.

No, your only solution is to not leave your house. It's not healthy. So after those shows, after those performances, whenever I've had all of that outside of it, I have to find spaces for me to just be like me, find places where I could be meditative. And for me, running or walking gives me a space to just like, I'm just going to think, I'm going to reconfigure my brain, I'm going to free up some space for myself, because it's really the only way I can do it. I remember being depressed in my 20s,

living in Santa Monica, and just kind of hopeless. And I'd be like, just walk out your door and just walk. And I'd walk like five miles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get back, I'm like, okay, yeah, I can keep going. What a magical thing, the walk. It's so great. It has really helped me.

I went to Greece and I filmed a little film called Drift, and that was really terrifying and hard and heartbreaking, the whole lot. And what I would do every day before we would start filming is either run or walk miles, and it would just sort of reset everything. The practice has just never changed. That's great. At some point for your mental health, you're gonna have to like do some silly something.

Some silly something? Yeah, cause Drift, Harriet, fucking Color Purple, like you're kind of living. If we think about it, even Wicked isn't really a silly project. No, you're getting your ass kicked. Yeah, I'm pulling out everything from the depths of me. I think on the outside people go, oh, it's fun and then they get in there like, what?

What is great about Wicked and again, I can't believe I'd never seen the musical, but I didn't know anything about the story, which was great. Which I love. I really appreciate people who have not seen it at all and are coming to the movie fresh. Can I tell you, I went back to our interview with Adina

and she told this crazy story, she got really hurt on stage one time and then they had to rush her to the hospital. And she was saying this in the interview and like, I'm all green. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. She can't really be all green. Oh, you didn't know that?

I didn't know. I didn't even know she was all green in there. And then I saw you and I was like, oh my God, now that story makes sense. She was in the ER completely green. That's fucking awesome. In her outfit. Oh gosh.

So funny. And it's such a great, I don't wanna call it a trope, that's fucking awesome. In her outfit. Oh gosh. So funny. And it's such a great, I don't wanna call it a trope, that feels dismissive, but it's a great architecture to watch someone just fucking take it on the chin. It's gut wrenching, I hate it. Especially the Justice Warrior me. I want you to go like, hey, fuck all y'all.

I'm better than all y'all. I'm maddened by it. And it's so sticky and good and great story. We got to go see it in a theater and it was so exciting. And I saw the play many years ago. I guess I forgot the whole thing. It started and I was like, what? I don't remember any of this.

And then we were with a friend and she went to the bathroom and she came back and I was like, this movie is so sad. I hate what is happening to her. You do such a good job of not playing it with pity, but you feel for that character. And I was like, I'm her. I was like, so, you know, I'm her, and I hate this for everybody, especially me.

It was fantastic. You're so good in it. Thank you. But I do have to do something silly at some point. I don't know what the silly thing is. I just did a really cool, I mean, there is silliness in it, and I had a great time doing it. We did an episode of Poker Face with Natasha Lyonne and Brian Johnson and I had the best time doing it.

And there is a lot of silliness. I got to use my funny bone there. But I think drama's always gonna follow me. I think the dramatic bone is always gonna be there. There's always gonna be heart in something. This is not a popular opinion that I have, but I have it. And I don't know where this comes from in me, but I'm a white trash kid,

and I got to grow up and be free of that. And I don't have to tell the story of every socially and financially disenfranchised person. And I have always felt a little bit of sympathy. If you're famous and you're black, there feels like some obligation. Like you can't not be political. That's just not on the table for me.

And although I think it's great to pursue those things, I also think it's yet another thing that's not fair about the whole experience. You finally transcended this and now you also need to be a social leader for me. And for you, I imagine like telling these stories, do you feel some obligation? Like, yeah, I'm the best person to tell the Color Purple story.

I'm obliged to do so. There is a part of me that is like, yes, sometimes I wanna just do some great stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the politics of me being a black queer woman. Fashionista. I don't know. But I don't know if I have that choice. And so I kind of just accept it and try my very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, characters that are only liked. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are just heroes. I want the complicated, icky space. The Gary Oldman career. I want that. I want to be able to do all of those things, and I want it to be okay.

I have less worry about it than often sometimes studios and streamers do. They're like, oh, but what makes her redeemable? Do we like her? And I'm always like, I don't know if the character cares if you like her or not. And I think that's okay. Also, take a look at Sopranos.

Yeah. The most successful show ever. Nobody asked if Tony Soprano is likable. We just watch it. Nobody asked if American Psycho was gonna be liked. I think it's okay if we can get those kinds of characters where the face is mine. We'll all be okay if we start really diving

into those spaces and not being like, it's because she's black. It's just because she's human and she has darkness and light in her. That's what's kind of clever about Wicked is she's green. Yeah, it's all the difference that a person can be. I loved the idea of being able to play her because there was no requirement for me to play her

as just good or perfect the entire time. She makes mistakes, she fucks up, she gets it wrong. Well, Ariana is perfect, but we immediately don't like that. And that's the thing, they're both fallible beings. They're both fallible humans. They rub up against each other. They're not great with each other either. It's not like Glinda's horrible and Elphaba's doesn't give it back.

They give it to each other. They're mean to each other for a long time. They say horrid things to each other until they realize, oh, we feel just as outcast as each other in spaces. Yours is more obvious. Mine is not. I'm trying to live up to something that is beyond me and I can't get to a place that you are in and I'm in the difference my entire life. So the experience of the world is very, very different. Well, the most important thing is neither's thriving from the identity they've taken on.

No, because neither one of them at the beginning actually take on who they're meant to be. It takes them having to be like, this could be to my complete destruction, but I have got to be myself because it's the only way that I can actually fully exist. And that's when shit really takes off. Yeah. Oh my God, it's so good. We love John Chu, we've known John forever.

He's the director. Truly is one of the most incredible people on the planet. Just a good human being. Watching him work is really fun. He's so excited by it. And he's like finding things at the same time we're finding things and then the ideas keep going back and forth.

Should we try this? Do you wanna try it one more time? And it's just so thrilling the entire time. And this is what it's like for months and months on end. And the thing is, he won't say he's tired. I'll be like, John, you're tired. I need you to sit down. You need to take a break.

Have you had something to eat? What are you eating? This is trash. I'm going to get you some vegetables and some nuts. Let's get you some sugar-free sweets instead of having like all that sugar because it's not going to help. He's the kind of person that you want to be well because he wants you to be well.

He's creating this atmosphere that is so infectious. And it sounds really cliche and very facetious, but it's not. That's how we did this. And that's not to say that it was easy. It's just to say that because the atmosphere was set up in the right way, the things that were difficult

were pleasurable at the same time. You could actually enjoy doing the hard work. When you're a carpenter and you're building a house, it's hard, but fuck is it rewarding. It's all going right, and it's so rewarding. When people see the movie, it is shocking what he's done. It is incredible. Visually, choreography.

Oh my God. I was like, how did he do this? How did he think this? It's done. Like, it is incredible. Yeah, visually, choreography. Oh my God. I was like, how did he do this? How did he think this? It's incredible. But I can imagine, because there's so many moving parts, it'd be easiest for him to just be tough. Yeah.

So the fact that he was fun and engaging is a big feat. I'm really caring, because he asked me at the very beginning whether I wanted to do the makeup or whether I wanted to do CGI. There was a question, it was like, so here's the deal, so if you do this makeup, it's gonna add three hours

to your call time every day. And it's gonna be hard to do that, because these are long days, and you're gonna add to it. I'm more worried about taking it off. Putting it on is one thing. The taking it off took an extra hour, hour and a half. And is that shit bad for your skin? You know what, my skin was in the best.

So you said yes. I said yeah. Why did you say yes? You wanted to look in the mirror and yeah, I get that. I didn't want to leave my trailer and have like dots on my face. Can I see your hands? I couldn't tell if it was your nails were so long

if you were wearing some kind of hand thing. No, my nails were done. Okay, nothing was happening with your hands. Nothing was happening with my hands. Nothing was happening with my hands. I have very long fingers. Yeah. Very long fingers. Yeah.

My nails are very long right now. Can I ask you a really crazy question? Is it appropriate? Go on. When you're wiping your butt. I knew you would ask that question. I know, but everyone thinks it. You get it.

Everyone's afraid to ask it. Because no, no one's afraid to ask it. Oh, is everyone asking that? Everybody asks that question. All girls though. No, everybody asks that question. Okay, very cliche. And my answer is nobody uses just their fingers Oh, is everyone asking that? Everybody asks that question. All girls though? No, everybody asks that question. Okay, very cliche.

And my answer is nobody uses just their fingers to wipe their backside. You use tissue. Oh, sure. Correct. And you wipe. Yeah, I guess my question is, does the tissue go on the tip of the fingernails

or do you try to get the tissue on the- Pads of the fingers. Okay, great, great, great, great. We're getting somewhere. Yeah. And then, okay. And then you're just feeling a little tickle of the nails on your crack of your butt sometimes?

No, because the tissue's there. You don't feel none of that. I wonder, okay, what I would do if I were you is I would wrap my whole, I'd make a mitten. I fold. Okay. Oh, you're a folder. I bunch.

Now, are you offended by that question? Are you like, I get it. Well, I get it. You're annoyed by it. I'm annoyed by it. I'm like, come on, guys. But I get it, but it's also like, I get it. You're annoyed by it, understandably. I'm annoyed by it. I'm like, come on guys. But I get it, but it's also like, I'm a functioning adult and I've never walked around

smelling like, you know. No one thinks that. In fact, everyone thinks you smell so good it begs the question, how are you wiping your tush? Very well. They're saying, what they're saying when they're asking is I would never be able to wipe properly. It's a problem with them.

That's the problem with them. And here afraid. That's a problem with them. And here's the thing, there are people who do not have nails who need to check how they're wiping. Big time. I agree. You know what I'm saying? This isn't a pass on everyone without nails. This is what I'm saying. By any stretch.

So everyone's asking that question. Everyone's asking that question. Wow, I kind of thought everyone would think that, but not be bold. No, no, people are bold. I knew you could handle it. I knew you could hash it out. People are always like,

how do you get anything done with those nails? And I'm like, I mean, I'm here. Yeah, I got here somehow. I'm dressed. I love them. I was just thinking of the ergonomics in that exact situation. Thank you so much.

But that's fine. Because the nails would change with the scene. Sometimes you would shoot two different things in one day. So the nails will change in the middle of the day. Can we go back in time for a second? Yeah. You originally went to University of East London. That's right.

And you were majoring in psychology of music, or music psychology. What is music psychology? It is the study of the way in which music affects the psychological state of a person based on where they live, their social standing. What's the word I'm looking for based on like elitism. Socio-economic standing.

Yeah, status. And then when you get down to the fine points of it, what is within music itself? So the way in which the note structures can affect the way a person hears the music and what it does to a person's mood and a person's psyche. So this is sort of layman's terms. If you hear a song in a minor key

and the lyrics happen to be sad or without lyrics, it tends to evoke a sad emotion. Or if you hear music with a major key, even if the lyrics are sad, you will evoke a happy mood. There's a song, and I hate to pick this, but I pick it because it's the one thing on my mind and she's with me all the time. There's a song called One Last Time

that Ariana Grande has. One last time I need to be the one that takes you home. Yeah. I'm so happy. I was praying you would sing at least for a second and you just did, so thank you. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. You're an expert, if you dare.

["The Heartbreak Song"] If you wanna sing more at any point, let me know, yeah. But her version, which is the seminal version, is in a major key and it's up tempo. When you hear it, you don't realize that it's actually a heartbreak song. People dance. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Then there is a band called Third Story, who changed the key and took the tempo right down. Ah. And now it becomes a heartbreak song. And now people are crying. And now you make people cry. Whoa, that's fascinating. Yeah.

It is, and do you find there's two different camps of people, so Monica and I are in different camps. I'm obsessed with music, it's a huge part of my life. But it's generally the music. The singing, sure. It's not the lyrics for me. Yes, yes, yes. And so Monica's heavily driven by lyrics.

I have even shared a couple songs with Monica and she'll be like, well, this song's a real bummer. And I'm like, it is? And then I look, oh yeah, it's kind of about battered. Look at the words. Right, right, right, right, right. And I've completely missed it. I'm the camp that sits right in between.

Ah, yes you sure. Because I think both of those things have inherent value. Let's take Mozart's Lacrimosa. Nobody knows what those lyrics are. Lacrimosa means to cry, but you wouldn't know that unless you go and look up the lyrics and you know Latin, right? Yeah, exactly. But you know that the music itself is deeply sad.

Yeah. that the music itself is deeply sad. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. That's what it sounds like. So it's sad. You know you're sad. But the lyrics, though they mean to cry, it is actually about forgiveness in a way. So it's actually not a sad song necessarily. It's a double trick.

Which is why I'm in both camps because even the happiest song can actually mean something very, very different. We can dance when we're happy, we can dance when we're sad, both have value. Like I'll listen to the lyrics all day long, but sometimes I just wanna hear the music. Sometimes it's the music that moves me.

Yeah. One of the most interesting things about music to me, this was what I studied in college, which is cultural anthropology. I'll be in other countries and I'm listening to the music that everybody loves. And I'm like, how on earth do they like this music? And it's so cultural.

Largely when I'm in Mexico and I hear that, it is all German inspired, their musical genre in Mexico is polka drive. Yes, yes. So the, bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom. And I go like, yeah, if I grew up in Mexico, I would love this music. Then that's what you're hearing, of course.

And that is fascinating. You think a music somehow objective to some degree, and it's not. I think it's what's really interesting about what's happening with, there's a music called Afrobeats, which is happening right now. And it seems to be growing tentacles

and spreading out everywhere. Whereas before I grew up with it, and it's developed and it evolves and it changes ever so much. So it's become a little bit popularized. But if you go back 50 years, the rhythms are still very similar. The tonal qualities are still very similar.

So you still hear the same types of notation, but lyrically it becomes different and the way we've put it together has become different and young people have started to listen to it. That was why I was interested in this particular subject, but I think I was too early for it. I needed to go and do the thing I'm meant to do, which is this.

Because you bailed, right? I didn't even go to RADA straight away. I went to like a young actors company program at a local theater because I was like, I'm not doing this. I don't think this is right for me. So I left and I went to this young company and at the young company, I was, I mean, I used the word forced fondly to go and study at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.

And I say it because this wonderful mentor of mine would not allow me to do this particular program unless I signed up for an audition. Wow. She blackmailed you. Yeah, she was like, you sign up for an audition, you come to this, you don't, you can't. And I was like, you sign up for an audition, you come to this, you don't, you can't.

And I was like. Hmm. Good for her. Fine. But grudgingly signed in to do an audition thinking this will be short-lived, it's not gonna happen, I'm not gonna get in, we're cool. Really quick, why didn't you wanna go there?

There was no point because I was not gonna get in. Okay, there we go. I was not gonna get in. I'm just asking to get rejected. You mean me, a girl from Southwest London who moved to East London is now gonna go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. In what world?

That's a nonsense idea. No one's ever flagged it for me before, so why on earth it's not gonna happen? And then I got in. And did you like it immediately? Cause you're now the vice president. What does that mean? You are?

Is that a ceremonial position? How on earth do you have time to be a vice president of a fucking college? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's ridiculous. Oh my God. It's so, I swear to you, it's the most ridiculous thing in the world.

Because here's the thing, my time at RADA was not easy. I was the oddball. I was a true East London girl who just was myself. And I was like the one girl who really loved music. And like I left, I was gonna do a backing vocal gig before I came to the school that was gonna pay for the school. And they said, no, I was doing gigs at night. And I was the only person that was doing

that kind of thing in this school. So I really had figured out my jobs. This is John Batiste, too. Do you remember when he's at Juilliard and he wants to be performing with his... This is for people who are in America and don't know. It is Juilliiste, too. Do you remember when he's at Juilliard and he wants to be performing with his? This is for people who are in America and don't know. It is Juilliard, basically. Yes, correct.

It's the same level. It's the same space, the same level. It had Royal in the title and I assume that. Yeah, they might have some sort of connection. I think they have a little connection. If not, I'm trying to make it happen. Ooh, I like that. Well, that should be one of your tasks

as vice president. As vice president. I've given it to myself. I think that might be a really good idea. Like exchange studenting maybe. Some professor swaps. Maybe. Everyone wants six months in London.

Here's the thing, I would go to Juilliard and sit and chat with the students because I do actually teach at RADA. Wow, you currently teach? I currently teach. Oh my God. What in the world? You're gonna kill yourself.

Dax is worried about your time. Are you the type that'll just run yourself into the ground? I try not to, but I think it's gonna happen. I think it's gonna happen this year. This is the year for your collapse. I do think it's gonna happen because there's just like a lot going on. And I'm actively trying to work at RADA

and do the things I need to do because I don't believe in taking on a title if you're actually not gonna do the work. I vehemently detest that. I don't want to be the vice president just because- Ceremonial. I'm not interested. I know that there's stuff to be done. I also love working with the students at RADA,

and I try and get there every year for at least a week intensive workshop with the third-year students. What I want to do is meet them in the first year, have a little time with them in the second, and then have the intensive in the third year students. What I wanna do is meet them in the first year, have a little time with them in the second, and then have the intensive in the third. So that is something that they work with throughout. They're not just meeting me the first time in the third year. But now they'll see me more often, because well, I'm there.

I wanna ask you a very inappropriate question. Were you in love with any of your teachers? In love as in in love? Crushes. Like, well, okay. I was in love with one of mine. Yeah, Monica was in love with one of her teachers? In love as in in love. Crushes? Like, well, okay. I mean, I was in love with one of mine. Yeah, Monica was in love with one of her teachers. Yes.

Still pines for Cubby. Yeah, I don't know what he's up to these days, but boy was he attractive and so smart. Did you have any crushes on your teachers? I don't think so. You didn't, that's fair. I didn't have any on mine either. No.

The theater space is very intimate though. I was only gonna ask, like, if I was teaching at 37 at a college, I didn't have any on mine either. No. The theater space is very intimate though. I was only gonna ask like, if I was teaching at 37 at a college, I think I would be mildly like, oh Jesus, does this person have a crush on me? Because there's some weird magic to the whole thing. I'm gonna ignore any of it.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm gonna be like, don't know, don't wanna know. Not paying attention to math. Don't tell me. Oh, you have me confused with a human. I am an acting teaching robot. I'm also aware of what I'm walking into the school with. I think I'd fall in love with you. Yeah, no, you are falling confused with a human. I am an acting teaching robot. I'm also aware of what I'm walking into the school with. I think I'd fall in love with you.

Yeah, no, you are falling in love for sure. But I don't know that people would fall in love with me as in me, I think they're falling in love with the idea. But aren't people always falling in love with the idea of the other person? I guess so. We fight about this all the time. I think so.

I think people fall in love with the idea of a person until they allow themselves to fall in love with the idea of a person until they allow themselves to fall in love with the actual person. Yeah, with great luck, you end up falling in love with the real person. But more often, you go, oh no, this whole thing was a projection. But then if you're on the other side of it,

if you're Cynthia, then you're like, oh, this person's in love with me. And then you run the risk of them finding out about the real you and then being like, oh, I'm not interested in that. But she'll be doing the same to that person because that person would have captivated some other fantasy and imagination. then being like, oh, I'm not interested in that. But she'll be doing the same to that person because that person would have captivated

some other fantasy and imagination. So it would be complimentary, I think. But when it comes to the school of it all, I'm here to teach you and take you through and help you. I shouldn't have even asked you that question. You're in a compromised position as the dean of the school. I would never. I'm also aware of what I walk in the room with.

I know that there's a lot and I think I'm getting used to what that even is. I'm gonna suggest someone more likely would think they're in love with you, but what they're in love with is they wanna be you. You'd be very aspirational. It's like, I wanna be an empowered woman who's got a Tony and a Grammy.

And so you would represent some kind of fantasy wish fulfillment, and that could be misinterpreted as well. And the thing is, I would say to that person, you do not want to be me. You want to be the best version of yourself. You don't know if you wanna do all the things or go through all the things I've already been through.

My shit's made for me. But when you're at that age, you really- You can't tell. Yeah, it's hard. I'm looking at Nicolas Cage and I'm like- And I wanna be that. I think for me, in a perfect world, I think I would be like the love child

of Cicely Tyson and Barbra Streisand. Who's Cicely Tyson? Yeah, Cicely Tyson. I'm so sorry, I'm very sorry, with all apologies. Okay. You don't either? Okay. Thank fucking God, I was sure it was a white guy thing.

I was gonna leave you out. You gotta look her up. She passed away a few years ago at like the age of 94, I think it was. Ooh, that's good. 96, she went into 96. What a quitter, she almost made it to 100. We really wanted her to get to 100.

And she was strong. She was one of the most incredible actresses ever. British? American. And she shaved her head just like me. I read her autobiography, it's the most fascinating thing. She had a torrid relationship with Miles Davis. Oh, that's a wild ride.

She tells you all about that. She was in Sounder, she was in Roots. Most people probably know her best for how to get away with murder. She was Annalise Keating's mother. Oh. Okay. But she's just brilliant. The way she used her hair as a statement

constantly throughout her life was just really inspiring. So whether it was doing bantu knots or getting it cornrolled or shaving it off or leaving it as an afro, there's a really beautiful image of her when she is nominated, I think for Sounder for the Oscar, where she goes with like flowers in her hair. She's special, special, special. So that combination of her and Barbra Streisand, and Barbra Streisand I picked because of the Renaissance woman effect that she has over her own life, and the way in which she was able to translate music and song and acting and do all of this vast arena of things.

when people try to figure out what is the magic that's happening, for me a big part seems like, at least through my little girl's eyes, is that she is a fully formed, self-created matriarchy. And I would argue Barbara was an early, like created her own matriarchy, whirled around herself. I can see that as inspirational. It seems like you are the combination of them

and especially Renaissance, you're the vice president. You're an academic. You're covering a lot of ground. Yeah, leave some for the rest of us, bro. With all this said, how mentally prepared do you feel like you are for Wicked? Because I can't imagine you are. I want to kid myself and be like, I'm really ready for it. I think in a way I am, but there's always the aspect

that you have no idea what's coming. You can't have the future. I'm really ready for it. I think in a way I am, but there's always the aspect that you have no idea what's coming. You can't have the future. I have no idea what this will be full stop, but I think I'm open. That's as far as I can take myself. I'm open to the possibilities of what this might be. I'm very, very, very grateful for the chance

to do something of this magnitude, because it doesn't come along often. No. I feel like I have some insight into what you're gonna go through, which is I think this thing will be what Frozen was. Yeah. And I think you'll have parents for the next five years

coming up and complaining to you that their kid will not stop listening to a certain song over and over and over again. And then I think you'll have a lot of parents bringing over young children to meet you at the table, but the children have no fucking clue what's going on. I don't understand what you're telling me.

That's the part that's gonna be different and harder perhaps, because when it happens to Kristin, sometimes the kids are like, what? That's not her. Elsa's a cartoon. What are you talking about? You're a person. Right. And they're gonna see you as a person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God you're not green. I know, in real life. You should fuck around one time, just go out as green. When this thing really peaks, you should go set up shop at a cheesecake factory. Oh my goodness. Can you imagine?

Insane. So I guess I have one remaining question about kind of how you got to this place because we didn't talk about your childhood as much as I like to. How old were you when mom and dad got divorced? Mom and dad didn't get divorced. They were never married.

But I was 16 when my dad decided not to be a part of my life. How frequently were you seeing him? Maybe two or three times a week, his choice. My mom was really, I think, kind. Did not talk shit about him to you? Ever. That's so nice. My mom did that as well. And as you get older, don't you respect it even more?

I completely respect it. It almost seems impossible. I honestly can't believe it. And gave him the space to come and visit if he wanted to. We would go over to his from time to time as well. She like really made the space for us if he wanted to build a relationship, over to his from time to time as well. She like really made the space for us if he wanted to build a relationship, to build a relationship, and he just didn't.

Was he struggling with stuff? No, I think he just was not set up to be a dad. I don't think it was his bag. Right. I read Jada Pinkett Smith's book, and there is a section in the book where she talks about her father, and it really clicked for me when I read this part.

She said that there are some parents who are meant to be parents. They're meant to shepherd their children into the world, make sure that they are taken care of and they are good with them. And there are other parents who are meant to literally get them here. And that is it.

And we can't forget that each parent is still a human being. They are a human being before they're a parent, and I'm okay. That made everything really clear for me. That doesn't remove hurts and pain that I had been through and have worked to work through. Does it materialize in relationships? I think it did. But you have your arms around it now.

But yeah, thank goodness for good therapists, because that shit really helped. But you have your arms around it now. But yeah, thank goodness for good therapists because that shit really helped. Were you generally attracted to people you had some subconscious notion that they were gonna abandon you? Oh yeah. Yeah, unavailable people. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Isn't it funny how fucking generic it is? Oh yeah. Oh, what's the situation with this kid? Okay, I'll tell you exactly what's gonna happen in 12 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know that they're predisposed to like actually go away at some point. You sense it somehow.

The second you're so hot for somebody, it's gonna be a huge clue. There's some parental damage underneath of it. That's correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that nuts? It's ridiculous. Until you get your head around it and you get some control on what it is that you're actually looking for, what you're trying to fix in that, it just will keep going. And do you agree? I had to go, oh, wow, I actually have to actively go the opposite

direction of what I want. I got to experiment with that. Yeah, I had to be alone for a second. I have to figure out what the heck this is. What am I running away from? What do I want for myself? And also, I think I was using for a small amount of time, my career as a conduit to like find a way to get him back. Sure. Almost. Look what you've missed. Look what you missed. Yeah, it's a great engine.

Look what you gave up. Look what you gave up. You're gonna regret leaving this. Yes. That kind of thing. What a great motivator that is. It's fantastic until it doesn't work anymore. That's right. Until it leaves you empty and you're like,

what am I actually doing this one? I've not done this for myself and now I have to figure out how to do this for myself. Well, I think one of the great tricks in life that everyone has to figure out is what got you to the party isn't what's gonna keep you at the party. And it's so hard to accept that or believe in that.

Yeah, we gotta try something else now. We need a new fuel source to stay. Let's change direction, pivot. Let's go somewhere else now. That got you here, all blessings to this thing, but it's actually gonna get you asked to stay. Let's change direction, pivot. Let's go somewhere else now. That got here, all blessings to this thing, but it's actually gonna get you asked to leave. So you seem to have the same, Kristen has a really, really in-depth knowledge of music

and reading music and all the math that's associated with music. Where did you learn that? Did you learn that at Royal Academy? I learned it at secondary school or high school. You went to a Catholic school? I did. So my music teacher there, Miss Rycroft, who is so awesome, no one really understood her,

but I really got her. She would pretend to be like this curmudgeonly teacher who just didn't like people, but actually she was the funniest, most brilliant, most kind teacher to me ever. She was like, oh, I have your number. Right. I know what you are. You are a musician, and I'm gonna make sure that you're always a musician. I see you.

I was like, quickly accosted, and I learned to play the clarinets, I learned to read music that way, and then she got me a viola, so I started doing that too. And I can't play any of these anymore, but it meant that I could really actually read music. I did music proficiency, all of that stuff, and did graded tests, the whole lot. Sing was happening in concert with all of that.

They had a choir. I don't know how this happened, and I think it's because of Ms. Rycroft. Strangely enough, my science teacher, Mr. Safrojay, who somehow put this together, we started singing with a big choir in the UK and we would do like requiems every year. I loved doing them because of the big sound of all these voices together. What's a requiem? My apologies.

So a requiem is a huge choral piece with all the voices, tenors, bass, soprano, alto, mezzo-soprano. And occasionally you'll have recitatives in between where they're like solo lines that would end up with big choral numbers. And usually it's a long piece written but separated by particular movements. We did Carmina Burana. And Carmina Burana, you wouldn't know the name, you would know the sound of Carmina Burana. Da da da da da. Da da da da da. Da da da da da da da.

Da da da da da. We're gonna pretend like we don't know it so you just keep going. I don't know what you're doing. I bet if you do 10 more measures I might get it. Have you ever watched Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Lemon version? Love.

That musical big choral thing is that. And we did another piece called The Rutter Requiem by John Rutter. And that is one of my favorite pieces ever. But it contains a piece called P.A. Yehsu and there are like three different P.A. Yehsu's. But these are the pieces that we would do. That's how I learned about classical singing. And so she made me learn Schubert Lieder the whole lot. So I expanded my classical taste in music at secondary school.

Wow. Whilst running alongside with everything else and learning how my voice worked elsewhere. And just my outside love of music anyways. And my mom is playing Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross in the car. Erika Baldu? Yeah.

And I'm learning all of that. How about window seat? Can we sing window seat? Have I got a window seat? Don't want nobody next to me. I just wanna. I love it. I love Erica Baudoux. She's brilliant.

She's one of the artists, singers that has gotten better and better and better as time has gone on. I just recently saw her in concert in London. How late was she? Cause I've seen her four times. She wasn't that late. I don't believe you one bit.

No she wasn't. She wasn't, maybe she was still on American time. She wasn't late. I think she was maybe like 20 minutes, 10 minutes or something. And she was, yeah, it was like- I've waited three hours to see her and I didn't care. On, it was amazing. Yeah, good.

Puma came out as well. It was so good. There's an artist called Duran Banar. He does her backing vocals, but he's an amazing vocalist on his own. He was out. It was amazing. I went with my sister on my best friend. We had the best time. She's a force. Oh, my gosh. She had her jewelry and her hat.

She had these really cool trousers, pants that were like chaps, actually, but had like teddy bears on them. It was just wild. The whole thing was wild. I was obsessed. It was brilliant. called trousers pants that were like chaps actually, but had like teddy bears on them. It was just wild. The whole thing was wild. I was obsessed. It was brilliant. But yeah, that's how my proficiency for music,

because I've had such a vast experience of it from loads of different sources onwards. Now you said the highlight is being in the stage and having that open line of communication with the audience. It's really happening. So I'm wondering the moment in the Requiem, do you experience something in that insane mass of harmony that can compete with the other solo thing?

There's like 30 to 40 voices singing at once or at the top of their voices. Yeah, whoa. In harmony. It'll be like MDMA. Oh my God. Transcendent. There's nothing like it. And it's ringing in your ears,

but you can feel it in the back of your head at the same time. It's like a short circuit. And sometimes it's what I feel when an orchestra is playing all together. There's nothing like it. You do realize how lucky you are, y'all. Yeah.

I mean, really, you're having an experience on planet earth that really very few people can ever touch. My experience is sort of enhanced by the fact that I experienced anesthesia. So I see color. You have that. I see color when I hear music. So for me, it's like a full sensory thing.

We understand that we are story creatures. We understand that we passed on our culture and our knowledge through story. We're starting to really understand it neurologically, but we haven't really cracked what music is. No, no, no. You can talk about the science all day long and what it is and sound waves and all of that.

But actually we can't really crack the code and why it affects people the way it does. We can't crack how this piece connects with that person but doesn't connect with this person. Why do we all understand this particular language? We might speak it differently, but there are a finite amount of notes. My uncle who went to Juilliard, who was a trumpet player,

he told me, yeah, mathematically, every single song's already been written. Yes. There'll never be a new piece of music. There's no new. That's so wild. The notes are the same. It's just how we experience it.

Why do we experience it like that? I think part of it is, it seemingly has absolutely no purpose. Right, but it does. It does. The most important purpose. But it seems like a weird thing for a human to do at any given time.

Right. And there's something I think just starting with that premise, which is like, this serves no purpose is interesting. So we know we're doing it for some other calling. It's like the closest we have to touching something kind of mystical. I believe that.

This might sound like the nerdiest thing I've ever said, but my favorite scale is chromatic. Say it again. Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh- Ooh, but it's not just humans, animals, saying, birds, and wolves. They won't shut the fuck up. Whales, whale songs. They're all tonal. Notes and music, however you experience it, it's the one thing that connects

every single being on the planet. It's the one thing we all have in common. And you're doing it at like the apex level. Lucky girl. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I could not put too fine a point on how great Wicked is. It's outrageous.

Thank you. We don't love musicals in general. We don't want to go to a club. And we say that publicly. It's dangerous. It's just equal to me saying I don't like dogs, which is also true. But man, did it get me.

When you're experiencing some lip from somebody, you have to go through such a long list. You're like, is it because I'm a woman? Is it I'm small? Is it I'm Indian? Is it I hate dogs? Is it that I hate musicals? I'm adding things by the second.

You're not helping yourself figure out what's really going on. I'm not, I'm really not. Anyway, what a delight to meet you, Cynthia. I really have enjoyed this immensely. This has been really fun. You gotta urge people to go to shit, but I don't. In fact, I could say like, whatever you do,

do not go on November 22nd to see Wicked, and I know you'll be there. I bet everyone already has pre-booked their tickets. I hope so. Is it a secret when the second one will come out? The second one is coming out the same time next year. Oh, okay. 22nd November next year.

And you filmed them both at once, obviously. We filmed them both at once. How long did that take, a year? That took about a year. We started rehearsals August 22, started shooting December. So four months of rehearsals. Yeah.

Wow. We needed it. Of course. Yeah, of course. We were doing like a Broadway show. Started shooting it in December, came to a halt in June or July, I can't remember for writing Strike or Act of Strike, both, and then came back

top of this year in January, finished in February. Wow. Oh wow. And Ariana's fantastic. She's phenomenal, yeah, she's great. She's experienced a lot, and she's a sweetheart, and what people don't realize is that she's experienced real heartbreak.

Again, back to the thing we were talking about, trying to figure out everything. So yeah, you have a package, Monica has a package, I have a package. The perfect end of the package also sucks sometimes. It's like very hard to be sympathetic to someone who looks like her and has her career, and she's just as worthy of anyone's sympathy.

You love her, right? I've heard you talk about her, you guys have really fallen in love. I love her. She's a bright spark, but you just wanna like, take care of her. Yeah. Give her a big old hug. And we really took care of each other. This was like a big one for us.

We used to joke that we were like dust by the end of it. Because we were working to the bone. I mean, whatever scratches, scrapes, cuts, bruises you think you could get, we had them. The flying in harnesses chafing, we had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chafing was like a funny word to me until I realized what chafing actually looked like

when you had it repetitively. It's almost a bed sore at that point. My gosh. It took months for my hips to just heal. Scratched palms, bleeding, I had a bloody nose at one point. Like it was mad. We were in this the whole way. Outside, she's got basically her arms out all the time. When it's cold, it's cold. There's nothing you can do about it.

You want to fly outside? Okay, we're flying outside. Is it windy? Yes, tough. We're gonna do it anyway. Is it raining today? Yep. It won't show on camera, so we're gonna do it. That kind of thing. We were willing to do whatever it took to do this. You want to be in at 3 a.m.? Be in at 3 a.m. We're gonna finish this makeup, because we need gonna do it. That kind of thing, we were willing to do whatever it took to do this. You wanna be in at 3 a.m.? Be in at 3 a.m., we're gonna finish this makeup because we need to be on set by 5.

Yeah, you know, in some weird way, it's lucky you did it at this age. Because if you tried to do this at 45 with this long ass career, you'd be like, I am not getting in that harness. And it's rare that I can- Like, I know about chafing, I'm not doing it. And it's rare that I can ask women to feel bad for men,

but I've spent a lot of time in harnesses too. Just put a penis and balls in that same harness as well as everything else that's going on. You're in it sometimes going, well, this can't be how it is, right? Like this is probably gonna destroy my reproductive capabilities. But here's the thing, I'm gonna talk to you there.

I'm gonna say, think of putting on a harness and then throwing a corset at the same time. Yeah. No thanks. Cause the corset's already hitting your hips, right? And now you put the harness on top of the corset. Yeah. Your ribs hurt. Yes. Yeah. That would be some mess.

All right, you win. I adore you. I hope everyone goes and sees Wicked, November 22nd. And I hope we end up interviewing you a dozen more times as you promote other things. I would love that. Wonderful. Can I come back even if I don't have to promote something? Yes, of course.

This was fun. Also, Kristin has just started doing this thing on Sunday. She started a choir club. Oh my goodness. So if you're ever here on Sunday, I'm sure she would love for you to come and it's just a bunch of nerds like you guys fucking singing together.

I would love that. A choir club? It's really cool. Do you know how lovely that would be? Yeah, cause there's no point to it other than remembering that you love music. Just to sing together? Oh my gosh, I would love that.

I will. Thank you. We will. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. What now? No, I will put it on Do Not Disturb for you. Oh, oh, oh, oh, I thought you had a bad update.

No, I don't have a bad update. Oh. On a previous or upcoming, I'm not sure, Armchair Anonymous, you told me that you hate me because I don't put my phone on Do Not Disturb. That is- That's how I heard it. That's how you heard it, okay. Okay. So now I put it on Do Not how you heard it, okay. Okay.

So now I put it on do not disturb. I guess those people have to listen to Armchair Anonymous and or go back and listen if it already came out. You should go back and keep listening. Yeah. Just in case. Because of course I remember it more of a playful, hey is there anything like really trivial about each other

that we wanna air? Yeah, you tried to make it cutesy, but it wasn't. It wasn't so cutesy. No. But yeah, I inquired, by the way, you don't have a case on your phone. I know, because when I was Mary Kay and Ashley the Row era, I had to take the case off

because they would never have a case. You're absolutely right. You can't look. You can't look like that. Like you need to protect your phone. How low class. Embarrassing. So embarrassing.

Funny enough, someone in the comments had like, someone wrote like, totally off topic to the episode, but why aren't any of the people in TV shows or movies using a phone with a phone case on it? No one does this. And they were saying their anxiety of watching a phone in scenes without a case is a lot.

So I said, you know, generally they have the permit, minimally the permission of the phone manufacturer. And so if the phone manufacturer is like, yes, you can use our product and they probably supply products. They don't want it all obscured with a phone case. The phone company wants it without the case so that you can see what the phone company is.

Yeah, I like that you're calling it a phone company. But if you don't have approval, you do have to have a phone case on because you have to cover up. Or they call what's Greeking it. We'll find out if that holds up. But you Greek things on a set too, or you obscure the logo a little bit,

put a little tape over this and that. You'll see a lot of, if people look closely, they'll see a lot of Mac computers being used in things with a little tape on it. Stickers or tape. Yep, covering up that logo that, what a great logo by the way, not a sponsor. Not a sponsor. Not a sponsor,

but a cute Apple. Although it's kind of weird. I'm looking directly at yours, of course. Yeah, and we don't have permission. We have not greaked it, no. My brother visited yesterday. How was it? For just, I don't know, 12 hours.

Wow. Because he was going on a cruise, leaving out of Long Beach. So he and my sister-in-law Tammy came from 1 p.m. till the evening, and we went out to Cafe 101 slash Clark Street. It's not really Cafe 101 anymore. Had a lovely lunch, played spades, came back. And then we wandered into here and we sat down

and we just started chatting and it was incredibly touching and connected and we were talking about our childhoods together incredibly touching and connected. And we were talking about our childhoods together and realizations we have. And there was even some damp eyes at times. From both of you or just? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's sweet.

Yeah, and it was really, really, really special. Did you guys hug? Well, we hugged when he got here and then we hugged a long time when he left. But did you hug in the moment? No. That felt too much. Well, just didn't feel terribly necessary.

What we did is afterwards we played pickleball. That's fun. Okay, I do have a question about this. Like, when people, when you're around someone and they have damp eyes, cause they're about to cry or they're crying a little bit, I don't really necessarily know how to handle that always. Like I know how to handle it with my words. But I-

You mean you know how to say the right thing? Yes. But I don't because I didn't really grow up in an affectionate family, physically affectionate family. Like I don't know if I should touch them or not. Oh, okay, so specifically whether or not to touch them. Yeah, do you? I don't feel a compulsion to touch people.

And maybe this is arrogant, but when that happens to me, and it's generally a man, like if it's happening and it's another man, I immediately feel super flattered. Sure. The main feeling I have is like, I'm so lucky that this person feels comfortable doing this in front of me. It doesn't give me anxiety or like,

I gotta do the right thing. To me, the right thing already happened, which is why they're doing it in front of you. But you don't feel the need to like help or comfort? No, I don't feel, and well, I inevitably will comfort and just will be talking about whatever it is there and I'll be hopefully dialed in and thoughtful in asking questions and, but I get no anxiety.

But I understand the anxiety. I only, I get anxiety about to touch or not. It's just touching. Yeah. Okay, your words are fine as you said. I feel like sometimes I should like, touch their not. It's just touching. Yeah. Okay, your words are fine as you said. I feel like sometimes I should like, touch their hair. Correst their hair. No, not caress their hair, that sounds awful.

What if I start gently brushing my brother's hair back behind his ear. I mean, does it have enough to tuck behind his ear? Not that he can't, he couldn't. He has very thick hair above his ears. What if he started playing with the ear and the hair in his ears? That's very sexual.

I mean, so is putting the hair behind the ear. It is. But no, I didn't, no. If he, now a full breakdown, yes, I would have probably moved over to that couch. And would you have put your arm around him? I just put my arm around him and hoped that he wanted to hide his head in my shoulder.

Oh, wow. But that would have been a full breakdown. It needs to be like really bad. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I'm trying- I'm gonna write down the rules. Rob, do you like to touch people when they cry? I get like you, I don't know what to do. That would have been my guess.

Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rob, me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rob, here's a question, Rob. Yep. So that totally makes sense for me. If it's Natalie, I know what to do. Of course. But other people.

And your children. There's exceptions. Yeah. But Rob, do you think, and this sounds like I'm fishing for a compliment, I'm truly not. I'm just genuinely curious. We've been working nearly every day together for seven years.

Do you think my willingness to do that with men has at all like rubbed off on you? Yeah, probably. Little bit? Yeah. Like, do you think, like you would take a nice long hug from me, right? Yeah, I would.

I mean, I have friends that I would. Yeah. I think it's more. I'd love to hug you if you ever had a sad moment. If I needed to cry. Yeah, so if you wanna schedule one, I'm totally available. All right, I'll put it on the calendar. It depends on who it is, and it depends on how often that exchange happens,

like how often you're crying around. Yeah. There are some people who've definitely never seen me cry, who I'm close to. And then there are others who see me cry a lot, you. You've seen me cry a lot, Chris's seen me cry a lot. Callie, I presume, or do you keep it buttoned up? No, she has, that's interesting actually.

I don't keep it buttoned up, She's definitely seen it and heard it. But this is how I am with family. I have a very quick trigger to cry in front of my parents. But I don't want to. So I'm always like trying to not, but it's like always right at the surface. That's the best kind of when you're acting and that's what you're supposed to do as an actor.

You're supposed to try to not cry. Exactly, I learned that. But most of the time you're trying to cry really hard and then the second it starts and you gotta act like you're not. And you're like trying to to not cry. Exactly, I learned that. But most of the time you're trying to cry really hard and then the second it starts and you gotta act like you're not, you're trying not. And you're like trying to keep it together. I learned that in college. Acting 107.

I did learn it in college. Yeah, so I'm always like, it's right there. Emotions are just so heightened with your family. I have similar feelings in this environment. Uh-huh, sure, sure. Where it's like, could happen at any time, the tears, the blood gates. I don't have that as much with her. I don't know why.

It's not good or bad, I don't think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aaron and I used to, we had this, I mean, we did this so often, we would laugh at ourselves for doing it, which is we would, our thing was we drank with everybody, all of our friends, but he and I always went another three or four hours. Even from our most hard charging friends,

there was always a few hours reserved for Aaron and I to just be together, really hammered at the end of the night. And we would start going through childhood and we would have a good cry while we were hammered. And we loved it. It was the only way we could. Talk about it.

Yes, get into all the stuff. And so like we kinda needed it and we only did it when we were super hammered but luckily we were hammered all the time together. So yeah, we would do it and then we would wake up and we'd just laugh like, oh yeah, we did that again. We just started crying together while we were hammered. That's funny.

I mean, it feels like somehow the subconscious was like, you gotta figure out a way to get crying together. However it needs to happen, you do need to probably have some cries together. And I've held Aaron a lot for sure. Aaron's very sensitive. Yeah, so wonderfully sensitive. Isn't it funny, sensitive's like a pejorative,

but it's so- It's not to me. It's not to women. You're gonna be married to someone who's not sensitive. That's a patriarchal thing because people say, think women are sensitive. So they've decided that's a negative thing. And guess what, women are sensitive. Thank God. Yeah, thank God. I know've decided that's a negative thing. I guess why women are sensitive. Thank God.

Yeah, thank God. I know we need it so much. Yeah. That's a great segue. Okay. I really wanted to promote the Martha Stewart documentary. Did you finish it? Not yet.

I knew you wanted. We still have to talk about substance. Oh, okay. We keep adding. Okay, well, let's talk about, do you wanna talk about substance first? I mean, we're here talking about women. I think I wanna talk about,

I wanna talk about Martha Stewart. Today's a big, let's talk about, do you wanna talk about substance first? I mean, we're here talking about women. I think I wanna talk about Martha Stewart. Today's a big, I know it's in a couple of weeks that this is coming out, but today is a big day to talk about women. Why, who is, oh, why, who, well. It's election day. I know, but it's. But it's not.

It's two weeks later. I know, but I can't act like I'm not thinking about it. Okay, I'm not gonna prevent you from anything. So Martha Stewart, if I just start with my own, of course I knew who she was all growing up. She's been a very prominent figure in culture forever. I remember when she became a billionaire, that was like very big news.

And then her incarceration, which I thought was insider, not only did I think it was insider trading, I thought that's what she went to prison for. I also thought it was insider trading of her own company. Neither of those things are true, which is fascinating. This is like an Amanda Knox story. Interesting.

And a Marion Jones story. There's another one. I bet we all remember it differently than what it actually was. But watching this doc, I admire her so much. And she's got some very unattractive sides to her. Big time, yeah. Which she kinda owns.

Well, does she? Well. That's the part that, that's the part to me. You gotta get, yeah, you gotta get deeper into it. It's a phenomenal doc. I really wanna interview her, of course. And I think it's great. I recommend it.

And I can't wait for you to finish it because then we can talk about like the, you know, pretty insane miscarriage of justice. Basically, America was sick of white collar criminals getting away with shit. It was in the air. And there was a lot of bad insider trading. And no one gave a fuck about the other people.

They wanted a sacrificial lamb. They want, everyone wanted someone to pay. And then you add in all the resentment people already have that she is a very successful, very rich, very powerful woman. Yeah. And whether anyone's aware of that or not, while they're, I don't even blame,

I don't think anyone was like consciously going, yeah, this is the wrong thing to do, I don't even blame, I don't think anyone was like consciously going, yeah, this is the wrong thing to do, I'm gonna do it. I don't think that happened. But I don't think you're aware of how much you're responding to this thing you're threatened by and you don't even know who you are. Yeah, people carry so many feelings that they don't understand about successful women.

It's very similar to the Kardashian hatred. It's quite similar because Martha was presenting the perfect life. She's in pursuit of perfection. And so people are simultaneously very attracted to that because we all like beauty and we like this stuff and it's very aspirational and wish fulfillment-y. And then you're mad you don't have it and she has it,

and you're jealous, even though in her case, she was physically doing it all herself. She's making floral arrangements and she's making the meals and she's all this stuff. But it's just, there's a lot of things that are fun to look at in the doc. How complicated all of our relationship is with high status people

and particularly high status women and people who have what we want is, you know. Yeah, it's complicated. Yeah. Very complicated. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to watch that. Okay. The substance. Now my prediction was, I don't know if it was a prediction. I was just like, it's, it's unrelenting and very intense and I'm just curious how you're gonna feel. What do you rate the intensity, the gore? So of course, it's so gory. It's so, it's very intense.

It's so over the top. But I wasn't like, I don't think I was as disturbed as- I was worried. As you were anticipating. And I said then, and I was like, I'm not sure if this is gonna be true, but I wonder if women will watch this differently and will not think it's as intense as men do.

I mean, it is, it's crazy. Objectively, an alien would go, wow, that's a really wild film the monkey's made. Yes, everyone's like kind of screaming. It's like kind of one of those where people are reacting loudly in a really fun way. Was it pretty packed when you went? No.

Oh, okay. There was like- The five people were screaming. Did anyone walk out? No. Because people walked out when I was- No, and that's like, to me, the idea of someone walking out is funny to me.

I mean, I don't wanna do any spoilers, but I just wanna talk about the sewing of the skin. Yeah. You were, that wasn't like, oh my fucking God. I mean, I was like wanna do any spoilers, but I just wanna talk about the sewing of the skin. Yeah. That wasn't like, oh my fucking God, or fingernail stuff. No, that stuff was like, I mean, that stuff is. I mean, I was like, ew, of course I was like, ew, oh my God, this is so insane.

Yeah. But I was not like, oh my God, I gotta walk out, or oh my God, I gotta close my eyes. And like, by the end of the movie, I was dying laughing. I was dying laughing. I was laughing out loud at such a high frequency. I thought it became so funny to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So absurd. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. If you dare. I have that with violence in movies. You know, it starts making me laugh so hard. Some of the violence in Goodfellas, some of the violence in Tarantino movies. It's just, yeah. I think it is interesting.

Yeah. I mean, there's something there, yeah. I think it is interesting. Yeah. I think there's something there. Right. I think because for you, since violence was a reality. Big time. You can see it a little differently or you can like, maybe you know when it's hit an absurd threshold. Uh-huh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And because for me, violence is just scary in general. It's all violence. It's all scary. It's all scary. It doesn't matter even if it's small. You don't know what's comedic and what's not. Yeah. And so I wouldn't laugh at that,

but this is like, yes, I'm so clear as to when like body gore has hit another level or when the message of the female body has like escalated to a different point. It's such an incredible message. the female body has like escalated to a different point. It's such an incredible message. It's so true. Speaking of successful women,

it's cast so perfectly because Demi Moore is so gorgeous. Yes. She's so beautiful. She's a knockout, yeah. She has aged incredibly gracefully. She looks incredible. When you were my age,

do you mean more, cause she was perfectly the right age above me, where she was like this incredibly exotic young 20 year old when I was like 15 or whatever. Yeah, Jess said that he was in love with her. Oh wow. And I was like. Transcended. I know I said,

Well, what'd you wanna do? Eat around it? Yeah. Do people know that? Eat around it? Do people know that? I think it's worth repeating. It's worth repeating. If you listen to Monica and Jess loves boys, Monica and Jess love boys.

That was one of our early spin-off shows, it was a long time ago at this point. We did a 10 episode show with Jess where him and I were so opposite, but we were on like dating missions, basically, and it was such a fun show. Another show I'm really proud of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, let's add now, because people for so many years have wanted to know why you guys didn't do a second season. And I think it's important to just say that you realize if you are actually gonna find love, this was not the right way. You had to prioritize your real experience. Yeah, it felt a little cheap. We put out the questionnaires and people responded

and once we were going through them, I was like, yeah, we're just making a show and it wouldn't really be about the real thing and that feels not authentic. Instead of your real life informing the show, the show is gonna start informing your real life and that's a dicey road. Yeah.

Yeah, so anyways, that's why we didn't. But he had girlfriends in high school. Yeah, he had girlfriends. Jess is gay and people don't know that. He had girlfriends in high school and we'd be like, well, did you like have sex? And he was like, I would eat around it. Which by the way, feels very sexy.

Just having someone eat my thighs and get close. They were probably like teetering on the verge. It might've been better than actual what high school boys were doing directly. Yeah, it's worth perhaps going back and listening to that show just to hear him describe that. Speaking of that actually, we have a feed. It's called Armchair Limited.

It is where all our old series live. Yo, great. People are curious about that. If you ever wanna go back and listen to any of these fun things we've done. Race to 270, a lot of people have been asking me, like, where's race to 270? Race to 270, race to 35.

So anyway, all our old shows are on there. It's really fun if you wanna go check it. Armchair Limited. Armchair Umbrella Limited series. Armchair Umbrella Limited series. But I think if you type in Armchair Limited, you can, it'll pop up. Anyway, I asked, did you want to eat around it?

And he said, no, I just wanted to write her letters. Ah, okay. More of like, what do they call that? Mother? Yeah. Someone called me that the other day and I was so flattered. So cool.

Yeah, yeah. Anyhow. Anyhow. So substance, yeah. Like she's so gorgeous and perfect. And so when she's starting to do, go down this road where she's- Taking a substance. Looking to be younger, yes.

You're like, why? You don't need to do this. Why are you doing this? And then you see the young person and as a woman, and this is so sad, as a woman you're like, oh, I guess I kind of get it. I understand why she wants that. It's so fucked up.

It is so fucked up what we do to aging women in this society. We really cast women aside. It's asymmetric for sure. Yeah, the way they shoot the men in the movie is hilarious. Yes, yes, all fish eye-y, disgusting. He's always eating shit, oh god. Yeah, it's falling out of his mouth.

Sea substance. Yeah, sea substance. I wanna, we have facts, but also, and this is for Cynthia, she was incredible. Cynthia, are we there? Oh yeah, what a blast that was. I have to tell you, any day now, I think we might get unplugged.

The sim is hitting new levels. Oh, okay. Okay. Yesterday, I was in Culver City. I'm never in Culver City. Right. It was so random, it was kind of last minute. Yeah.

Decided to go. Decided to go to Culver City last minute? Yes. What on earth was in Culver City? Jess is helping open a new restaurant. Okay. And I told him I would come see it. Be a patron? Yeah, exactly.

But I was like really on the fence, I didn't know if I was, whatever. Then last minute I was like, I guess I'll go. I wanted to beat traffic so I went early, I went at like this random time. And I park, I'm just sitting in the car, I'm on the phone and I look over and Molly is staring at me through my car window.

Molly Richardson. Okay, Molly Richardson. Who also does not live in Culver City, is never in Culver City. Happened to be meeting a friend for lunch. I know exactly. Happened be meeting a friend for lunch. I know exactly. Happened to meeting a friend for lunch there and like drove by, saw my car, saw my little,

she said she saw my little head. Okay. And then parked and what? That is so weird. It is very weird. Max. We have, listen, which it's so fine. We have complimentary things about,

that trigger us into the sim. Okay. So you have things, you have coincidences. Okay. Right? That's kind of your, what you don't ever miss. Mine is more what's happening in my lifetime. This feels very suspicious. So my example, my recent sim moment

was talking to my hormone doctor, is very suspicious. So my example, my recent SIM moment was talking to my hormone doctor, telling him how, I mean, we're just chatting. It's not like I'm asking him to deal with this. I'm just somehow, we're talking about getting older maybe, and I said, the thing that's fucking killing me is my eyesight. I find it so frustrating, and I know I'm being a baby,

but I cannot stand not being able to fucking read anything that's not 25 feet away from me. Yeah. And he said, oh, I just got the bionic lenses put on. Right. And they go, what bionic lenses? And he said, I think Johnson and Johnson makes now an artificial lens that lasts forever

that gives you perfect sight. Yeah. And I went, what are the odds I'm gonna be, I'm not gonna have to deal with fucked up declining vision. That's where we're at. Again, that feels awfully suspicious, Monica. For 300,000 years, humans have had to deal with their eyes going to shit, and I might not have to.

Yeah. Come on, man. My final piece of the puzzle or I'll go, okay, it's a sim, I'm in a sim, is if they shut off aging. Right. If they end aging and you don't have to die. I know, I know. Until the earth blows up in five billion years. Maybe before that. Or sooner. Yeah, but also you would still die

by getting hit by a car and stuff. You could still die by getting hit. Yeah, I think what we've really beat out all the things that this would cause is I think you'd get abnormally fearful of accidental death. Yeah, everyone would become agoraphobic. You'd walk around with a big bubble wrap all over you. Yeah.

So that to me, that's more of what I'm tracking. Yeah. And I've always said this, mostly people that believe in the sim have an abnormally lucky life and I own that. Yeah, but that's if you're looking at the sim in the way people that believe in the sim have an abnormally lucky life and I own that. Yeah, but that's if you're looking at the sim in the way you're looking at the sim. If you look at it in the coincidental way,

that can also, that doesn't have to be privileged. That's just like, what the fuck is going on that I just said this or that I'm running into Molly that my neighbor of my house owns the apartment next door. Like that's not. I acknowledge that stuff is very simmy. But I do think that if you've had, you know, two people knock you up that lied

and said they had vasectomies and you're in a trailer on welfare. If you do think it's a sim, I feel so bad for that person, because why would that person deserve that sim? Why would they, they plugged into something to have that experience? So I don't think that person would ever think they're in a sim,

because why would they, who would be in a sim that's fucking insufferable? Well, that's a few, okay. It gets so heady because if we're, if my, if I'm in my sim. The people that are suffering are fake. Yeah. That's what we hope.

I know, I know. I don't want anyone to suffer. Me either. Anyone that's in a sim should be having a fucking rollercoaster ride. But in their sim they are. This is very confusing. Well, TBD, TBD. Whatever, I'll just say,

I think we might get unplugged soon cause it's getting way, that's so crazy. Same bionic eyes, I mean, they just happened. Okay, Cynthia. Boy did I like her. That self-assuredness is so attractive to me. Very. Okay, Michaela Cole.

We were talking about if she was younger or older. She is the same age, she's 37 as well. Okay. All of us were born in 87, all three of us. Special year, as we know. Special year. Seventh grade for me, birth for you. A postpartum doula, you wanted to know what that was.

Yeah. A trained professional who offers support to new parents during the postpartum period, which is the first six weeks after giving birth. Postpartum doulas can help with a variety of tasks, including physical care, helping with breastfeeding, infant feeding and infant soothing, emotional support, information, housework,

incorporating older children, oh, helping to incorporate the older child. Integrating, yeah. Overnight shifts. She mentioned one of her heroes, Cicely Tyson. And yes, she was nominated for Best Actress in 1973 one of her heroes, Cicely Tyson. And yes, she was nominated for Best Actress in 1973 for Sounder, Cicely Tyson was. Was I even here yet?

No, you weren't. Still a few years away. Couple years. Do you say 72 or 73? Three. Oh, two, yeah, okay. Your brother was here. 69. Ding, ding, ding.

Erika Badu. Huh? I just wanted to, cause you asked if she was late and I just want to be clear. That's a thing with her. It's a thing that like she is late a lot. It's cool, although I like it. The queen's late, like you wait for the queen.

Yeah, I agree. I just, for people who don't know that, it seemed random that you would ask that. Yeah. But it's a thing, like people ask like what, oh, she's going to be a couple hours late. You said that your cousin told you that mathematically every song has already been created.

That's not true. The number of possible sound combinations is essentially infinite. For example, Spotify, the world's largest music platform, has over 100 million songs registered and 100,000 new songs are added every day. In average. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Every day? That's what it says. A hundred thousand songs are added every day. That's what it says. Holy smokes. Yeah, so no, no. No. There's an infinite number of combinations.

Okay. Essentially. All right. So you can tell your cousin. I'm not gonna tell him. Okay. It sounds like a fun thing for him to hold on to. Okay, sure. All right. So you can tell your cousin. I'm not gonna tell him. Okay. It sounds like a fun thing for him to hold on to.

Okay, sure. Yeah. Oh, we talk about how in England, they have things, we have things here that they don't have because we allow chemicals that they don't. Oh, sure, yeah. We play it fast and loose. We do.

But in 2023, about a year ago, California became the first state to ban four food additives linked to disease. What are they? The California Food Safety Act prohibits the manufacturing, distribution, and sale of food and beverages that contain brominated vegetable oil.

Oh, I love brominated vegetable oil. Delicious. No you don't. I gotta move. Potassium bromate. Oh no, okay. Propylparaben. Well, what about Propofol? And Red Dye 3.

Red Dye 3 is the biggie. Yeah. Can be found in candy, fruit juices, and cookies and more. Cookie boy. Cookie boy. Anyway, so that's good. How are you doing on your cookie boyness?

When's the last time you had a cookie? I had a cookie... Uh. Uh. At least two weeks ago cause I had one at Sycamore Kitchen, love Sycamore Kitchen. They have a rice crispy treat cookie. It's so insane. I just had an impulse.

I'm gonna share with you. You know how I wanna go back in my time machine and woo your grandma so bad. Kill to do that. I also wanna see you as a baby cause now when I just asked you about cookies, of course you looked one years old when you started thinking about your cookies.

And so I wanna go back and see you as a baby eating a cookie. Oh, like my first cookie. How hot was your grandma when you were a baby? Can I hit two birds with one stone? Yes, she was beautiful. She was. Gorgeous.

How old was she when you were eating cookies as a one-year-old? She would have been, okay, let's see. So my mom is 26 years my senior. How old was? She was probably 20. But isn't that your dad's mom? No.

Oh, that's your mom's mom. Yeah. You didn't know that? I don't know, man. Oh my God. Yeah, I think of your, that grandma feels very Indian, and I know that your mom's parents lived in Savannah.

They came from India. They came, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know, cause your dad of course feels so much more, like he was an adult when he left India. Yeah, he was. So when I see a picture like that, I just, I'm in India. You are in India.

Congratulations, you got that one right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so got that one right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so she was probably in her late 40s when I was born. So she was probably around your age that I was eating cookies. Oh, wow. Okay, I think this is gonna work.

No, I don't know. Yeah. No, my grandpa. He won't know. All right, let me flip it. If you wanted to go back in time and give Papa Bob some ass, I'd love my grandma Yolas to death.

I wouldn't do that to her. You haven't met her. But you love her. I love her so much. So why would I do that? Smartest person I ever knew. Because this is a one-off time capsule for him. This is like, he doesn't even know

if it was a dream the next day because you came into town and you were nowhere to be found because you went back to the future. Okay. Ding, ding, ding. Not a sponsor, great movie. It's a one-off, there's no threat to the marriage

because you return to the future, he can't fall in love with you and ruin everything. It's just a one-off. You give Papa Bob a little tush. I would want that for him. I would want that for him. I would want it for him. And my grandma didn't need to know. And I would want Brad Pitt to go back

and give Ulyss the right of her life. Oh, sure. Yeah. That one feels less. Why do we want that for her and not him? I don't know what to say. We don't have a word for misogynist for men. What is it?

We need that word. There's no such thing. There's no such thing. There's no such thing. That's why. It feels very mean to men. It feels mean to men. That she gets Brad Pitt, but Papa Bob can't have some-

That's not mean. Some tush. She- Isn't tush the grossest thing to say? Yeah, I hate it. You keep saying it and I think it's disgusting. There's a 70s rock song. It's like,

I'm just looking for some tush. And Erin and I sing, it is so grody. Okay, we're gonna get stereotypical here. Yeah, of course. Women, I think, for the most part. Caveat, caveat, caveat asterisk. For the most part, they're sex, they don't wanna have as much sex as men do.

As they age, as they get older, as things happen. Like, I mean, it's actually for real, your sex drive does take a dip. Well, so we have testosterone. That's like the, that's the sex fuel. Any one will tell you that. Well, we have testosterone, but not as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yes, so, but with menopause and perimenopause, everything drops off. I know, cause I'm in perimenopause. You're not. And so, so I think a lot of women are having sex with their husbands past the point of them wanting it. We know this. It's like, the husbands are like,

can we have sex once a week? And the wives are like, sure, I guess. I think that's the predominant pattern. Exactly, not always. But I do want to add, and this I think comes from, there's a ton of great work on this from social scientists, like Ira's mom who studied in fidelity. Women cheat the same amount,

but they are driven by novelty. This is like agreed upon. Women are driven by novelty and men are driven by sprain, unfortunately. So, you know, put that in your argument. This is kind of known. It says men are more likely to cheat than women. Okay, but like 51 to 49?

It's according to- These men are cheating with somebody. This is 2022. Yeah, but they might be cheating on someone who's not in a partnership. 20% of men and 13% of women admitted to cheating on their spouse. Okay, yeah, and then I'm just gotta, you know,

I gotta do my thing, which is admitting. Culturally, it's so much worse for a woman to admit it. It's so expected of men. Even more, exactly. This is all tying back into what I'm about to say, which is why it's not the same that if Grandma Yolis gets to have sex with Brad Pitt, it's not the same.

You feel like it's right, writing the scale. Yes. I got you. Yes. Okay, so I imagine that that, just don't hate me. Okay. If it's admitted 20% and 13%,

I think the real numbers are probably like 35% for men and probably like 29% for women. That's just what I think. From the amount of adults I've known that have been married and the amount of affairs I know about and who they were with, that to me feels way more likely. I only, I only, I'm really trying to think

because I don't wanna speak out of school. But in my experience, I don't know very many, but I personally only know men who have cheated on their wives. Really? None of your girlfriends cheated on their boyfriends. Most of the girls I know cheated on their boyfriends. One girl cheated on her boyfriend. One? Well, let me think.

Let me go through every woman I've ever known. Okay, well, I guess for me, I guess I'm thinking more marital. Yeah, okay. Once people are married, I, in my experience, only know men who have cheated on their wives. I bet it's gone up too since women joined the workforce

because forever they were at home and they would interact with other women. Who the hell are they even gonna meet? Whereas like men were meeting women out in their workplace all the time. Well, they weren't meeting women out in the workplace. Sure, they had secretaries and all these roles that were conventionally females.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like my Papa Bob worked at the Wonder Bay Breakery. Sure, everyone in the bakery was men carrying bags of flour, but then up front there was all these women doing all kinds of stuff. Right. Yeah. Anywho. Okay, so.

Okay, Mexican music is- Hold on though. What? Oh, wow. What? So I accept your full logic, then why doesn't that apply to your sweet grandma? Why isn't she like my grandma, Yolis?

Wait, what do you mean? If you okay, Brad Pitt, having a night with Yolis, useless eggshells, named after Ulysses S. Grant, why wouldn't your grandma be entitled to a night with Ulysses, Ulysses Eggshells, named after Ulysses S. Grant. Why wouldn't your grandma be entitled to a night with me? Because I don't want that for my grandfather. Oh, right. But it's okay for my grandfather, which would make sense. It makes sense for your grandfather

because you said you want it. Yeah, I want them. I don't want it for them. All right, I'm moving on. Okay, Tahano music is influenced significantly by polka. You're right. That's it. That was everything.

Well, let me just do one more double check. Yep. All done. Final note, not a spoiler, loved Wicked. You gotta go see Wicked. Got to. You will, everyone already will. Everyone's already seen it probably by now, but Wicked. Oh. You gotta go see Wicked. Got to. You will, everyone already will. Everyone's already seen it probably by now,

but it is so good. Popular. All right, I love you. Love you. ["Wicked"] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.