Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Dove Cameron

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Dove Cameron (Too Much, Descendants, Liv and Maddie) is an Emmy Award-winning actor and singer. Dove joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the origins of bloomers, realizing she was a stimulus addict at a very young age, and her fear of offending the gooey duck community. Dove and Dax talk about spending her formative years in India for months at a time, her first music gig singing in the children’s ghost choir for Ryan Gosling’s Halloween band, and recognizing as early as she can remember that her parents were meant to split. Dove explains not knowing she was an introvert until she was thrust into the public eye, growing up on TV while processing her father’s death, and how helpful it would be if we all demystified our mental health.Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth. Hi there, it's me. Um, this was a favorite.

This was a great episode. It was an incredible episode. One of these, I say they pop up like every 15th episode where one's so moving. Yeah, very beautiful. And so inspiring. Yes. To do this job to eternity.

Yeah. To sit down with a stranger and like have a very special intimate exchange. Yeah, lucky as hell. Oh, nice. Dove Cameron, by the way, when I came in after this, and I'm talking to the girls brushing their teeth, they don't ever care who I, you know,

have sat with that day. And I said, oh man, I had a great interview with this actor Dove Cameron, and they flipped out. They couldn't believe it. She hits a lot of markets. It's kind of funny. Ana was over watching our Sunday night shows before we recorded, and I said,

oh, we're having Dove Cameron this week. And she was like, oh, my brother loves Dove Cameron. Oh, really? And then also her mom. And the mom. And Calvin. And Calvin. Calvin loves Dove Cameron. Oh really? And then also her mom. And the mom. Yeah. Calvin. And Calvin.

Calvin loves Dove. Yeah. Well, she's an Emmy award winning actor and singer, descendants, Liv and Maddie, shameless, Cloud Nine, her album, Alchemical, Alchemical? Which we learn about. I learned how to pronounce it and I've already forgotten. My volume one is already out

and she has a new single out right now, Too Much. It's a great song and it's really blowing up. Ooh, lovely. As I would want for her. Yeah. This was awesome. Yeah, and please enjoy it. Yeah, please enjoy Dove Cameron. He's an objector

He's an objector What are bloomers, guys? I know a bloomer. I know a bloomer. I'm all about a bloomer. They originated in cheerleading. Some of them can be late, some of them can be early. Yeah. Wait. Oh, that's a funny joke she just said late, some of them can be early. Yeah. Wait. Oh, that's a funny joke she just said.

Oh, late bloomer, early bloomer. That's like something that would be on connections. Yes, do you play connections? I hate that I don't know what that is. It's a New York Times puzzle and it has 16 words and you have to put those words into four groups. So they're associated. It's increasing hardness.

Yeah. Okay, you would get the first word, you'd be like, oh, day, that's easy. But then it gets hard. And then it gets hoard. Hoard. It gets hoard. It gets extremely hoard.

What's happening with your teeth? I'm already jealous. My tooth gems? Yes. Oh, yeah, that's cool. You're very cool. I've been circling, I want a gold tooth cap. I have a girlfriend who has a gold tooth cap

and it is so cute. Can you connect me with her gold capist? Absolutely. Oh my God. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm already making connections. Oh my God. Wow. I have a question because I'm just first time

sitting in this. Is there a way to angle the camera so I'm not flashing everybody? Oh yeah. That's a great, right? It's a bug. Okay, gorgeous. I love it. Because there's so many cameras

that I don't know what you're catching. And I always just like to like mission statement. I don't desire to have my- To show my ass. My ass cheeks on your show. I don't desire or respire to have my ass out. It would be so annoying if we did film this whole thing and then we were like, uh-oh.

I've been on TV for so long, you gotta ask these things because someone's gonna be like, oh, your ass was out the whole time. And no one thought to tell me. No one thought to tell me. I've gotten brattier over the years, more protective of myself. I've gotten brattier.

It happens when I do stuff with Kristen. They'll have blocked it where they want me on her left side and we're like, no, we don't do that. I'm always on her right side. And then Monica and I do stuff with Kristen. They'll have blocked it where they want me on her left side. And we're like, no, no, we don't do that. I'm always on her right side. And then Monica and I do stuff too. And it's like, I'm so sorry, but I gotta be on her right side. So wait, is that because it's a girl's side or your side?

He likes one side. Yes, this side. I like one side too. Which side? We can never be photographed together because we're the same side. Oh, or we could. Or we could just like prom.

We would always do profile. We could prom it. I just have a stronger symmetry on the same size. Oh, we could. Or we could just like prom. We would always do profile. We could prom it. I just have a stronger symmetry on the right side. Like my jaw is more defined on this side. I have a slight difference in the tip of my nose. I also think maybe this eye is like slightly bigger. I'm sure it's an insanity. You do have a very powerful mandible like Kristin.

My jaw? Yeah, it's very powerful. Oh, I've never heard that. You haven't? Oh my God, I'll take it. It's very defined. I love a powerful mandible. Yeah, mandibles, it's essential for chewing. Yeah, I've never heard that. You haven't? Oh my god. I love a power of the mandible. Yeah mandibles, it's essential for chewing. Yeah, I'm trying hard. I got

chin filler. Make it pop. Yeah, try to pretend like you've got this beautiful thing happening where you have a very small face and huge features. Bingo. I've been playing that out for years now. Almost cartoonish, the proportions of the eyes. Yeah, I've never heard it like that. I like that. I was just reading something the other day about the different beauty preferences for all around the globe. And the small face, big features is very youthful.

I do read young. And Dove, just ding ding ding last night, we were with Rob, who you just met, his little boy Vinny. Is Vinny a little person, Rob? He's 4% size. 4% size? He's really small.

He's so tiny. And his eyeballs are the size of ping pong balls. And we were eating dinner with him last night and I was like, this ratio of eyeballs to face size is the most appealing thing I've ever seen. Yeah. If he could keep that running. You should keep that to yourself.

Yeah. He was staring at your son thinking. We all were. Everyone at dinner was just staring at the baby the whole time. And that kind of right sizes the ship because his son sexually verbally assaulted my 11 year old last night. So you were just balancing this.

I'm just trying to balance it to her defense. He's a baby Vinny and he's talking to Lincoln. He loves Lincoln. Our daughter, look at that little fucking. Oh my God. Wait, shockingly large eyes. Look at that little fucking. Oh my God, babe. Shockingly large eyes. What a beautiful little babe.

He's talking to my 11 year old and he goes, I like your hair and your body and I like your butt. No way. One, two, three, I like your hair, I like your body, I like your butt. Pretty good. Well you don't say that, Vinny. Oh you said that?

And he's four? He's three? He didn't know what he was saying. He has to know almost no words, and those are some of the words he knows. He had already complimented on her earrings, and now he was just moving on to anything he could think of. So hair, body, butt. He's like, nice knees. You got good knees.

He's so ahead of the game with those big eyes and giving compliments. He's a killer. He's gonna slay. He's gonna absolutely slay and slandered. Exactly. I also love this crazy combo of you have a protein shake, you have a Diet Coke, I really know I'm home. I come never anywhere with less than three beverages

in my purse. Now clearly you must be seeing the litany of ADHD messages on Instagram, like post. Have you noticed this tidal wave of, I don't know if it's my algorithm or everyone's. No, no, it's everyone's. One thing that I saw was someone saying ADHD people always have like three drinks.

Really? I think it's because we're so stimulus addicted. I realized I was a stimulus addict 10 years ago. I was little and I was like, I can't do anything unless there's many things happening at once. Right. You know something funny, this is just a random anecdote that I have for you.

Your wife guest starred on my Disney Channel show. Oh wow. She came for an episode of Livin' Maddie when I was itty bitty and it was because she was friends with Andy Fickman who created Livin' Maddie. He did? Mm-hmm. We love Andy Fickman, right?

Yeah. He part of Reefer? That's where they met. Reefer Madness, Heather's the musical. Yeah. And they did You Again together. Oh, cool. He's a sweet, sweet boy. That's my man.

I too was there, not on that trip, but my best friend who's visiting right now brought his, at the time, 11 year old son, and he was obsessed with that show. And I'm like, Live and Maddie that show. And I'm like, yes. And I'm like, do you have a dream thing to witness? And he was like, live in many. So I figured out how to get us in there

so he could watch. That's so cute. So I have a little anecdotal history with you as well. I'm actually glad I didn't know that because I was such a fan of both you and Chris. I probably would have passed out. You think so? Yeah, oh yeah.

And you can be honest, probably more of a fan of Kristen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but genuinely a huge fan of you as well. I was always a massive comedy girl growing up. I remember you guys have a movie together that I was really obsessed with.

Hit and Run? That opening scene when she's crying and all of that, it's so beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, so Nina Dax wrote that. Yes, I do. And directed it. I remember. That's our favorite thing we've ever been a part of.

Cause it was just our movie that we paid for. We made it cause we wanted to make it. And it's all my cars. Yeah, it was very special. We just showed it to our daughters. And how old are your daughters? 10 and 11. Perfect.

Let's talk about Washington. Okay. Cause I have spent almost a decade of my life up there. Why? My ex-girl girlfriend of nine years, Brie was from Marysville, Everett, lived on the Tulalip reservation on the Puget Sound. No way.

Yeah, in your Bainbridge, which is an island. Uh-huh. The Pacific Northwest is so beautiful and it's full of people who are born there, raised there, never leave. And then if you're not from there, I'm always shocked that you might have a reason to go there. It feels like a Twilight Zone-y area

that to me does not exist outside of the people who eat, sleep, and breathe that community. You're right, it is a very specific area. I took to it immediately, because her friends were all also alcoholics, which I loved. Probably a lot of drinking. And masculine, they might be driving a truck,

and maybe they work for the forestry service, but they're also liberal. Super liberal. Yeah, and I was like, oh, this is refreshing. You found the feminist liberal mountaineers. Mondale-Ferrara bumper sticker from the 80s on their truck still. But did you go crabbing?

We went gooey duck. What's gooey duck? What the heck is that? I still don't think in my adulthood I could explain what a gooey duck is. It's like this massive, I'm gonna get it wrong and everyone's gonna be like, this is not a gooey duck. We'll fact check it. The gooey duck community is gonna be livid.

But it's this massive, long, amorphous clam thing. It's a hard shell sea animal. Inside there's some eatins. And you like boil the gooey ducks like a clammy oyster. I never liked them. Yeah, this sounds horrible. It sounds disgusting. But I remember the hunting process being super exciting

and romantic in between kayaking, hiking. It was a very natural, North Face branded upbringing. What age did you start drinking coffee? Because I'll say this, when I was- What age did you start drinking? Transition. After spending time there, one knock I have on the area is you get exhausted there.

It's drizzly and dark and damp. Yes. I was like, oh duh, the coffee revolution started here. I have my own theories about how Seattle became what it is because Seattle particularly has a huge coffee culture, huge underground music culture, and huge jazz music and wine culture. My theory is the same as yours. I think that everyone was like, it's fucking miserable outside, what can we do inside? And then you got all of these little jazz bars and these weird little underground city hubs. Capital Hill, so fun. Capital Hill, so fucking sick. And then

everybody just sort of stayed inside and never came out and it became like this cozy little, we listen to jazz and drink wine and everybody's like a little bit pretentious. Depressed, pretentious, but like you're chill about it. Good mix. Good. Yeah, I started drinking coffee at like 12. That was my hunch.

I don't think you could have made it to school if you weren't because it's just too dark and drizzly. It's just disgusting outside. The rain used to be such a constant for me that it was like, you're walking in the rain. You don't put makeup on, you don't do your hair, you surrender to the rain. And then I lived in LA for one year and I went back to Seattle. You lose your tolerance. That's me in Michigan now. I'm like oh my god it's too cold for humans

to live here. How did I ever? Yeah I got a second dig about Seattle. Give me the dig. It's raining 200 days a year and no one can drive in the rain. Seattle people going 30 miles an hour on the highway when there's a little drizzle. It's raining 200 days a year and no one can drive in the rain. Seattle people are going 30 miles an hour on the highway when there's a little drizzle. It's true. But I also think it's because truly they have nowhere to be. Good point. Not in a derogatory way, but in a healthy, we're living a real human life. We're living slow. Now that I live in LA and New York,

and I'm really splitting my time, the rushing and the mania of these cities, you go back to a healthy, normal working city where it's like you go to your job, you go to the airport, you bank three hours. So I think that that's part of it. It's less that they cannot drive in the rain and it's more that they're like, eh, fuck it. Okay, so what did mom and dad do

on this island for a living? So crazy enough, they didn't work on the island. They worked as far away as they possibly could. They had a business out of India. The country India. Oh wow. Jaipur and New Delhi, Jodhpur, some select parts of Mumbai. They were importers so they would design jewelry and certain goods. They had all of their suppliers in India, which is where all of the silver, gold, all the fine gemstones, all of the materials are in India. And they had all of these houses and suppliers that they worked with.

So they truly spent half of their year in Jaipur and New Delhi. Oh, really? And were you going with them on these trips? Yeah, yeah. I have an older sister and she was very much in high school and they were like, you can't do your homework on the road. And I was like, I want to be homeschooled. I want to travel. How much older is she than you? Seven years. Oh, that's a hefty. That's Monica and her brother's.

They say that that's like and her brother's get virtually. They say that that's like the only child. It is, he grew up in two different lives. You wouldn't go for six months though, would you? No, I think the longest I went was four months. Wow though, that's a long time. That's hefty. And did you love it?

Did you hate it? Absolutely loved it. I feel like I've spent so many of my early brain forming amoebas connecting memories in India, and it was so life-changing. My dad was always also really big on, if you ever are saving money, it's for travel. If you ever do anything, it's for travel, it's for education, it's for expanding the frontal lobe. It's not a rad car, like me and my dad think.

Travel is always the number one to do. And so I was really lucky because my parents were just like, she's so small. What is she really gonna fucking learn in second grade? Yeah. Let's get out of here. So you did homeschool the whole time you were on that island? I was in public school, which on Baymorge Island is like 20 kids.

I did public school from kindergarten through second or third grade, and no kid is happy in school. But I was really struggling. I was starting to get a little weird and internal and my parents were like, she doesn't have peers. Were you shy? I was really self-expressed.

I was very precocious and I was too much for other kids and I really, really wanted to be friends with other kids but I think I was not an easy fit for groups of friends. Did you come on like a freight train? I think probably. Yeah, I can smell it. I like it. But you figure a lot. You're like, you know a lot actually. No, I think probably. Yeah, I can smell it. I like it. But you figure a lot.

You're like, you know a lot actually. No, I love it. No, I've really mellowed out over the years, but I think as a kid, I wanted to like love people and love them hard. That's also around the age where kids start to suss out who's weird. Yep. Yes.

And kids start to be like, you're doing weird things and we're not doing any of those things. In-group, out-group, development. And I was very much in the out-group. Your level of intimacy is very uncomfortable for me at eight. Yeah. Which I was similar to, by the way. Right, I feel like so many of us,

especially in the industry, have that story. I'm like, is your stepdad hitting your mom? Yeah, yeah. I was like, are you? Helaciously traumatized. And they were like, I just wanna go home and watch Nickelodeon. I was like, I don't have Nickelodeon.

I very much also was always hanging out with my parents' friends. And so I was trying to have real conversations when I was too little to be doing that. Did you love being told you were old for your age? Yeah. I was one of those kids that was wearing big coats and being like, I'm just so stressed.

Honestly, I'm exhausted, like with my empty wine glass. Right. You wanted to have been going through something. Yeah, I wanted to be stressed so bad. I understand. What age did they get divorced? 13 or 14. Okay, so does it correspond with you moving to Burbank?

Kind of. Wait, we gotta add before you move to Burbank, you start acting at eight, you're doing local theater in Bainbridge, and you're already on that trajectory before we go to Burbank. Yeah, that was kind of the only place my mom could stick me.

She was like, you gotta channel the energy and you hate soccer. And I was like, let's do theater. It was this tiny, sweet little community theater where they were putting on Les Mis Teen Summer and I was playing Little Cozette and doing Shakespeare summer camp and playing Lady Macbeth. And I was so into it.

And then funny enough, the first gig I got was for Ryan Gosling's Halloween band. Oh my God. He had a Halloween band? And it is fucking incredible. It's so- Of course that bastard. So good, that fucking ass. God, what a dick.

He can do everything. So hard to like him, but I can't resist. Something about him, I just can't resist it. He had this crazy Halloween band called- Dead Man's Bones. Dead Man's Bones. Okay. Okay, Robbie. That's it, Rob. He's a dead man's bone, first time he's ever spoken today.

And it's really quite good. I still listen to it, it's very experimental, him and his friend, but they had this concept of having like a ghostly children's choir. Okay. My first ever gig, I got paid like 120 bucks or something. This is why you're still in Washington. Yeah, I played at an adults-only underground club.

Oh, wow. Because he was there? Yeah, they came through on like a little tour, like a club tour. Oh my God. And they were casting locally. Whoever was managing that show had a lot on their plate. Yeah. Like we have 13 shows

and you gotta find a ghost choir in every city. A children's ghost choir. Yeah, good luck. He had big aspirations, but it worked out for him. And we're so proud of him. I don't know if you know this guy. His name is Ryan Goss. Like I think it worked out fine.

He's doing great. So that was my first ever thing. And then I was just so convinced that I was gonna find my people. In Hollywood, that was more the impetus. So you were kind of driving this move to Burbank? 100%. My parents wanted absolutely nothing less for me than to be in film and television. I think it was something that they felt was kind of inevitable and that was my sales pitch. I was like, I'm gonna do this when I turn 18 with or without you.

I would really love your support and I would love to start before it gets much harder for me to start when all the other girls are 18. Yeah. Right, right, right. My parents split up. My mom moved out. I lived with her in her little apartment on Bainbridge Island and she had just gotten her master's degree

in sustainability, which was so bad ass to watch my mom do that. And a little head of the curve for her. Oh yeah, very like Washington. That was when she was talking to me about fuel efficiency, all these things that now are super common knowledge. Glass bottles are not more sustainable than plastic bottles because of the amount of resources we have to use

to ship them, all these things. It was such a cool thing for her to do once she had already had her whole business that she ran with my dad. When they divorced, did dad just keep going with the business and she just left the business? Yeah, I think he tried to keep the business going for a while, I think it was kind of impossible

to run on his own. The business ended up going very under a few years after. This is an incredible amount to be happening at once for dad. If he's losing this business, he's had for a very long time that's stable. And his wife, he's had for a long time. And then now his daughter's moving down to Burbank. Yeah, it was a truly complex transitional time in the family.

I'm going to be 30 next year. And as someone who has retroactively studied my family dynamics ad nauseam in therapy and in my own existence in my brain and my life. I truly don't know if it could have gone any other way. They were always going to divorce. It was not a surprise. So you felt that when you were in the dynamic, they are supposed to be together.

I think I knew that from as early as you can know that. Well, there's an interesting thing at play and Kristen and I have this too. It could go wrong, it's gone well. But when you're both locked into somebody because you have a kid and you're locked into them professionally, I think that's an interesting dynamic to navigate

because you're kind of like, I'm not sure how much of this I'm picking as much as now. I just am locked. We have these two commitments together and that can be hard. I think that my mom would very confidently say that they were not a love match. It was not something that they endeavored to do, was be together for as long as they were together. And when I moved in with my mom, it was because my dad and I were having a very difficult time with a very tenuous

relationship at that point. You were 13? 13, 14. It starts getting dicey around there. As an adult now, I can look back and be like, that was fair on my part to distance myself. Everything was kind of falling apart at once and getting very human and very real and very adult. And my mom just kind of scooped me up and was like, we're getting the fuck out of here, kid. My mom is the most beautiful woman on the face of the planet.

And she is so astute, so intelligent, so sensitive. And I think she was just like, and look over here. Yeah. Did dad have some mental health stuff? Did he have depression? Very much, but it was more than that. I'm not sure the tone of the show. I looked all the way.

We get so deep. My dad was severely depressed, which manifested in a lot of violence, emotional, mental, physical outbursts, very kind of unsafe. And it got worse as I got older. And especially when my sister left to go to college and I was the only kid. And I was also dealing with my own transitioning into teenage hood depression. And there had also already been a really big dark streak in our family because my best friend was murdered by her own father. Oh my god. I feel like the first eight years of my memory were pretty good.

Maybe some tension with the parents. Don't really see them kiss, but not as aware as after that murder suicide. Very real thing happened when I was eight. I think it really did shift the dynamic because they were very close to our family and it just accelerated a lot of darkness in the family. Well, if I was your mom, I was like, oh, it can go this way.

I'm not gonna be around for this version. Yes, and also my mom was so young when she met my dad. They were 20 years apart. They got pregnant and it was kind of like, okay, we're getting married. My mom is very open about this. I'm not saying anything that she wouldn't feel comfortable with me sharing.

I have the same kind of mom. Isn't it a blessing? I think it's necessary. It's a sort of a generosity that you give to your kids because it's really helped me in my development. I think it's all getting reframed, but whereas that stuff used to cause shame, now I think it's all getting reframed But whereas that stuff used to cause shame now I think it's more a testament to bravery and resilience like all these stories for me. They're empowering. They're not shame inducing

They're like, oh fuck. Yeah, these humans live through this. That's rad I always found it strange this taboo around mental health or loss or trauma Because I would mention something that I thought was singular to me in my young life and like eight hands out of 20. Would go up and be like me too. And I was like, so we're all pretending this is a singular issue and we're keeping it to ourselves for who's benefit.

I know who, our neighbors. Exactly, you know, sort of like a 1950s conservative. Who are also fucked up. They got some shit going on next door. How much more helpful would it be if we could all? You can't keep your darkness hidden indefinitely. No, it's untenable. Yeah, so you could have that goal, but it's not even going to work.

But also I think we're already doing a disservice to ourselves by calling it a darkness. I take back my framing of that because it's only dark in comparison to something that we've constructed that's actually not real or attainable. It's relative to a fantasy. Relative to this cultural dream that's never existed and is super toxic. So I'm always very open. I just sort of have a knee-jerk reaction to being like, am I being too open? Are you okay?

I definitely border on overshare. Me too. I would love to just make that selection right out of the gates. That's totally great if that's not your jam, but there's no way I can talk about your job for two hours at dinner. I gotta talk about it. What is that? What happened to you?

I get so burnt out if I talk about anything except for someone's real life. Yeah. But I'll be at the airport with someone who's helping me with my baggage or something, or like a security person. I'll be like, how's your mom? Like I've never met that person before. And I'm like, what are you doing after this?

What's your night gonna look like? How did you get out of bed today? Yeah, I'm like,, where did you go to college and who was your first love? I love it, I love humans. I wish we could just demystify. So when you got down to Burbank, did you get a wave of, oh, it's a little less intense here

and this is nice? Yes, when I got to Burbank High, Burbank High School, I was so culture clashee at first because it was huge. The school was bigger than the population of the place where I was from. It's not like that. We have a friend like graduated from there, yeah. We're kind of familiar with the vibe, yeah.

Love Burbank High. He was also a show choir person. So was I. I know you were national champion, right? My choir was, I don't think I was, but it was so cool. Yeah. I fucking lived and breathed for show choir. What makes it show choir?

I'm a Philistine, I just know the word choir. Show choir is you're putting on like a 20 minute traveling medley mashup dancing. Jubilee. It's fun. It's super sick. So there's dancing and voguing. Costume changes.

Yeah. It's super full out and competitive. Yeah. Is burros the same thing? Burros is the same thing and we are rivals, baby. Okay, Burrows is where our friend went. I'm sorry, you're actually a rival of our friend. Oh, I didn't realize I was in an anime territory.

Yeah, I had to go. I feel, I feel a little unloyal for being here. I feel a little morally torn right now. It's very funny because my absolute best friend in the world, Veronica, we met because she was in the rival show choir. Oh, fun. Because it's very funny because my absolute best friend in the world Veronica we met because she was in the rival show choir Oh, it's very glee this Burbank versus Burroughs is glee. It's what it's based on. People were getting their fucking tires slashed and shit Wow

It was so nuts. Oh, I love this. And also like SoCamp We're all showing up at some weird rural California school to compete and then everybody's like these guys are fucking tires You gotta go full out on that grunge day, dude So funny better lock you down those fucking harmonies to show them where we come from Brubank. Yeah, I loved it. Did you hang at that AMC? I still hang at that fucking AMC. Yeah, it's a powerful AMC was 3070 There's like a couple hundred screens there. There's a powerful magnetic field under that AMC. I take my very Italian boyfriend and I'm like, isn't this amazing? Yeah.

I'm like, this is San Fernando. It's about as American. I always say to people who are not from here, if there is a Midwest of LA, it's Burbank. It is, it's very suburban. It's a lot of trades people that live there that are crew members, they're lighters, they're gaffers. We have the candy shop.

A Nordstrom rack, three frozen yogurt spots. Yeah, a Nordstrom rack. That's as suburban as it gets, a Nordstrom rack. I really go there when I need to crack align my brain. When I need an alignment adjust, I go back to San Fernando. Remember who you are. Okay, so you're going to Burbank High and then you're starting to audition.

Then you get this pilot, Bits and Pieces. Okay, research. And you shoot bits and pieces. And then what happens during the filming of bits and pieces? Normally, as a 14-year-old, all you get sent out on is Disney. And I remember my first couple rounds of going in for Disney and all of the casting directors being like, please don't send this girl in anymore.

She's not funny. And she's actually quite dark. And she's off-putting and I was like, fuck you guys. I came here because I wanted to do dramas. Serious acting. I was super unshaken. I, at that point, was very not 14. They kept being like, she's not reading as young as she biologically is. She doesn't have that sparkly thing. And the reason that my mom felt confident enough to bring me to LA was because we got really far in the process of casting for True Grit,

Coen Brothers. Oh, no kidding. We got super far randomly out of a Seattle office. Did you get to read for them? No, but we got down to the point where we'd been going in for like three months, and they were calling us with updates, it's down to you, and three other girls, it's down to you,

and two other girls. And so my mom was like, oh, so my kid's not out of her mind, she might be able to do this. And so I really wanted to keep going out for film. And there was all of these really exciting things happening. And Disney, in the least ungrateful sounding way, it just was not on my bucket list. You were trying to be older.

We already liked the compliment, we're mature. Yeah. You're not trying to get on a kid show, you're trying to be in true grip. And I also didn't have cable. So I didn't have the Disney upbringing. I saw it at my friend's house, I knew what it was, but the basic like bunny rabbit ears

wasn't a thing in my house. And so we stopped going out for Disney and then my agents got this call being like, we have a Disney thing, but it's being directed by a guy who mostly does film, Andy Fickman. It's like a sort of a breaking the fourth wall thing. It's a bunch of movie people and the script is actually really funny. Would you go in for it? And I loved all of Andy'sickman. It's like a sort of a breaking the fourth wall thing. It's a bunch of movie people and the script is actually really funny. Would you go in

for it? And I loved all of Andy's previous work, She's the Man, and so I was like, yeah, fuck it, whatever, I'll go in. And I was reading for something else because one of the casting directors from Disney famously did not like me. I didn't know why. I don't like how she makes me feel. Yeah, exactly. And I went in and I just decided to go full manic balls to the wall, stupid, slapstick, over the top comedy, and I booked it. When you were doing that, did it come with some discomfort? Were you like, I hate who I am being right now?

Or you were like, oh no, this is fun to be this too. I was just having so much fun because the comedies that I was raised on were all of the Monty Python and Gone With the, not Gone With the Wind. That's a hilarious. You know what I'm talking about? What the?

That's the worst that voice gets me. Classic Blank Gun, like all those comedies. Godfather. That's hilarious. You know what I'm talking about? What's the worst? It's the worst. Casablanca and all those comedies. Godfather, Carface. Godfather. Schiller's List. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. The Pianist. The Pianist, exactly.

I'm thinking of A Mighty Wind, all of those Christopher Guest and Mosse Python. I knew stupid comedy better than rhythmic laugh track comedy. And so I just went in being like, I'm going to be so crazy stupid. And I'm going to like scream at the top of my lungs and do the most outlandish choices because either I'm going to get the role and have so much fun doing that or they're gonna be like that was so crazy. Never bring her back. And I was comfortable with that.

I was like, I don't want to really do Disney anyway. So we booked it and I had so much fun. And at the time, it was just sort of a modern family setup, a blended family. I was playing the older sister who really loved fashion was bratty and didn't want to deal with her little siblings. And then we had Joey Intenzing who ended up playing the brothers. And then we had another younger actress

who was playing my younger sister. And then we had this very pivotal scene where we're talking in the mirror during the pilot that I guess swung Disney in the direction of, they had always wanted to do a twin show, but they never tried it. And at that point I had already done one Disney Channel original movie for them

where I was like snowboarding. It was so crazy. And they just bet on me. We went away for like nine months. They were like, don't work. And then one day they called me and they were like, hey, show's picked up. Get ready for everything in your whole life to change. Also, you're playing Twins and we'll see you on Monday. Wow.

Is it way more work if you're playing Twins or no? You're shooting every scene twice. Yeah. Honestly, I had fun. I feel like everybody's waiting for me to be like, so tell me about Disney. Yeah. Oh yeah.

We had the best team. We had Ron and John who were our show runners. I really grew up on that set. When I was getting my driver's license, all the show runners and writers walked out with me. I got picked up on the studio lot by the driver and they showed up with signs being like, watch out, new driver on the road, disaster.

And I was like, yeah, you gotta get this fuck away from me. It was just a really lovely, safe way. So it was huge, Live and Many comes out and it gets 5.8 million viewers and that's the most viewers Disney had gotten in two and a half years. Oh really, I didn't know any of this. Yeah, so it's like hugely successful.

And you do four seasons? Yeah. What was it like to have overnight fandom from young people? I couldn't have prepared. I also think I surprised myself by being more introverted than I anticipated, which you truly don't know until you're put into that situation

and then you're like, oh, I'm very introverted. I didn't really learn how to navigate fan attention or public attention for many years. I used to have panic attacks. So not to heavily shift, but to give you context. At the point that Liv and Maddie was airing and I was working, my father had taken his own life. Oh.

And so there was so much going on in my personal life. That's gonna affect any kid. When you're 15 and that happens, it changes the course of your life. And within the same calendar year, we were in 900 million homes that translated into all these different languages. So overwhelmed, like two of the biggest things

someone could experience at one. Yeah. And one great and one terrible. And I'd imagine I would feel guilty enjoying the great thing because this other thing happened. I just imagine tension between those two things. I couldn't at 15 land in a soft spot around what happened with my father. There was no way for me to wrap my head around it. We were at his funeral on Bainbridge Island and then

a couple months later I was at the Grove with people asking me to sign glossies and I didn't know how to really reconcile with that because like the beginning of my career, I was so shrouded by this heavy cloud that it didn't hit me that I was a famous person until years later. I really was protected in the soundstage. I would come to work every day and some days would be good and some days would be bad and everybody was super protective of me and it was kind of like a volatile time in my life in general just being a teenager being on TV. The show was a great escape. Yeah, I bet when you get there and you don't think about the fact that your dad has died for 11 hours and then you get off. It was this mindfuck because you're in this world of like, hi guys, I'm Dove Cameron and

da da da da. And you get home and it's silent and your mom is like, you okay? And you're like, yeah. I don't know. It's very jarring. You tell me, am I okay? And then you're in therapy and then they're like, you want to be medicated? And you're like, I don't think so.

I don't know if I can act if I'm medicated. It was this crazy teenage hood. Were you having any guilt about being in Burbank? Yeah, it was a weird thing because to be completely honest, I tried to mend my relationship with my dad a lot. There's this thing that happens with a lot of people who are depressed where they are perpetually pushing people away. And for the entirety of 13 and 14 and 15,

I was really trying to connect with my dad. He was always a depressive person. My mom and him met and he was like, I'm super suicidal. And she was like, okay, I'm 20. We're gonna try to get you out of this. You know, like, boy. Yeah, so it was always sort of there,

but I was really just like, I miss my dad. I know something's weird. He doesn't answer when I call. Well, the most heartbreaking part, it would seem to me, is that you at least had the fantasy at all times, this will get repaired one day. Yeah. I keep trying, but one day he's gonna be feeling better

and I can get it repaired. Yeah, sorry. No, and then they go, oh God, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to repair that. It's really sad. Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's also like, I think about this a lot because I was so young

and I have a memory of him coming to stay with us once in Burbank. And I just remember thinking all the color had left his face and I didn't know he was drinking so heavily and all of that. And I remember being young enough, like 14, he was staying on a little blow up mattress in our living room. He wasn't looking at me in the eye. I thought he was mad at me. And I came to like, say good night or lay down next to him because I was still a very

young 14. Mentally, I was mature, but I wasn't dating. I was my parents kid and I was very insulated and very protected. And I remember laying down next to him just for a second to be like cuddle time routine. And he didn't really move. And I remember him being like,

I think you should, you should go to bed. And I remember receiving that as just such a rejection that like he didn't wanna, and I didn't know what it was. I truly thought he was angry with me for something and you know when you're a kid you blame yourself of course and so I was like maybe I'm behaving badly or something I didn't really get it or I would just feel guilty that I'm pursuing my own life he was always vaguely supportive I guess he was worried about me more than anything

he was worried that I wasn't gonna be able to survive in Hollywood I knew that but I had gone back to see him after I had lived in LA for a year and I stayed for the summer at our family home. I went because I wanted to spend the summer with my dad and I wanted to see him and we hadn't seen each other for so long. I remember him doing everything he could to get me to not stay with him. He would send me to stay with my friends. He probably didn't want you to see him,

how he was existing. Yeah, he was like a famously tight-walleted man. He was always like, you get $100 for clothes every year before school. And if you grow out of them, that's your problem. You go secondhand shopping. You can make six outfits out of this, good luck. He's like, if you grow, that's your fucking problem.

And then the rest, like you have a sewing machine, figure it out. And I was like, all right. But the summer that I stayed with him, I remember he was just giving me money to get out of the house and I was like, that's so bizarre. And I didn't really realize that he had already put a plan in place. He got rid of all of the animals. He was getting rid of all of his money. God, isn't it weird to think of someone planning for that long, something like that?

Yeah. It kind of goes against my stereotype of it overwhelming you in a moment. Well, it might not have been as consciously planned as just like, I don't want anything. You've lost even the desire. Yes, you've lost the desire to even care for anything or have anything. I still go back and forth on that because I found out later that he was paying

my friend's mom to get me groceries and basically was just pawning me off on another family. I internalized it for two years that he was just mad at me. And I was constantly trying to fix our relationship and reach out and he just wasn't having it. And so I don't think at the time I felt guilty for being in LA so much as even when I was on the island still he was not really wanting to see me. And so I was kind of like, I'm always here. I'm always wanting to connect with you. Yeah, your side of the street was clean.

And I found out also that he had attempted something really publicly and my mom kept that from me. And that was a big turning point of my mental health was just being like, what do I not know? And my mom was probably right to keep that from me, but of course when I was 14 or something, I was like, what the fuck? So I really didn't know what to think of it.

The last thing he texted me was, I love you, Khloé. And then we got a call the next day. And it was like, yeah, it's really crazy. I honestly don't talk about it too much. Yeah, understandable. Not because it's hard, honestly, because I do talk about it, but I talk about it with this kind of like,

here are the facts. You can disassociate a little bit. So I went into therapy for the very first time three years ago or two, whatever it was. Oh really, wow. Yeah, weirdly since I was in recovery for so long and I was like, well, I'm getting everything I need from there.

And yeah, I can tell you my story. I can tell anyone my story. It's a timeline. And then in that therapy session, as I was talking to him, for the very first time, the emotions were attached to the timeline and they just are not generally for me. So I can relate to these moments where like,

oh, okay, the emotions are here now with the story. Yeah, a lot of the time, trauma is very sensationalized. I'm sure you know. I've become very protective of that over the years because I used to be much more open about speaking about it. Yeah, a lot of the time trauma is very sensationalized. I'm sure you know. Yeah. I've become very protective of that over the years because I used to be much more open about speaking about it. I had a friend who died very publicly in the last few years.

And that was when I tried to reorient a little bit my autonomy over what spaces I share that much. Well, my therapist said to me, he's like, you know, some stuff you can keep for yourself. Not because you're hiding it out of shame, but just it's yours to keep and you should keep it. Having it for you in a weird way, which is a new concept for me. Yeah, it's sort of the opposite of what we were talking about earlier, which I was actually going to say that I think it's actually okay, not out of shame. But when we were saying sharing is important, and of course it is, but it's okay to have things that are just yours.

Yeah. It doesn't mean it's your secret, it's just yours and you can protect that if you want. Well that's your life is just sliding that line back and forth and it's like, yeah I've felt comfortable with it here and now I feel more comfortable with it here and it'll probably change again and it's fine.

There's not a right or wrong, it's just, am I betraying myself? Do I regret it later? Right. You did make me cry today though, because I was seeing the tattoo that you got. And I have little girls. No.

And I say that. Same thing to them all the time. Really? Oh my God, you're gonna make me cry. That's so cool. And I was like, oh my God, I can't. Yeah, if they had to tattoo that on them at some point, because something went sideways.

You know, it was just heartbreaking. What is the tattoo, if you don't mind sharing? It says, we'll be friends forever. Which is just like the sweetest. It's the sweetest. Oh my God. I say to him like almost every time the way this is going, you know we're gonna be best friends for the rest of your life,

rest of my life. Yeah. Yeah, unless I get a procedure, hopefully. When I live for 180. Maybe I can do it with him the whole time. You gotta work on that. But yeah, I'm like, we're fucking best friends from this day to the end.

Well, and that's what it should be, right? I'm so moved to hear you say that about your girls. Cause I truly was best friends with my dad He tried his best. There's probably equally sweet relationships, but I find it hard to believe there are Fuck yeah moms and sons are having this and I suppose I did have that with my mom But just it's inconceivable that anything could be sweeter If I we went to see my 11 year old sing in her choir. She goes to an all girls school,

so it was just all these little girls up there singing. And I said to my wife, I'm like, they're the best thing we've got, daughters. On planet earth, like of all the bells and whistles, this is it right here. Did you always want to be a dad? Yeah. Oh, I love that.

I thought I wanted boys. Really? I think as a guy, that's what you think. You're like, I'm gonna have a son. I'm gonna teach him how to carve a piece of wood. I'm gonna teach him how to throw a right hook. Teach him how to do donuts in a car. Then he's fucking good.

Then he's straight. Then he's fucking stupid. And then I let him loose onto this planet. Yeah, yeah. But I'm so fucking grateful I didn't have boys. Cause I actually don't want to do any of that shit. I want to go to Taylor Swift concerts. Butterfly clips in the beard and yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's so sweet. Paint my nails and dye my hair. Yeah, so much more fun. Okay, so back to your career. So Livin' Maddie's enormous, but then Descendants comes along and that's its own juggernaut. I think Descendants was bigger than Livin' Maddie.

6.6 million views versus the first, yeah, yeah. I don't know why these stats are killing me. Oh, 6.6 million. I love numbers. They don't change. I can rely on them. So Descendants is a whole nother way. And now there's tons of singing

and you'd already been in choir. And I guess you start releasing music around Descendants time or before? No, after. It's confusing, I did so many weird things in that time. I had a band with my then boyfriend friends, so wild. It had a weird name, a girl and a... Girl and a dreamcatcher.

I did not name it and the band was not my idea. No, no, the band was not my idea, neither was the name and none of the music. That was something that was entirely his thing. And it's sort of like a fever dream. I forget all the time that that ever happened. So like, I guess technically that was coming out around then. But no, I didn't sign with a label or start releasing my own shit until 2019.

It was actually after we finished filming all three. Cause Disney had Hollywood records that I think was with Capitol. And that's what out of touch Bloodshot Waste and So Good are all on? No, I was never with Hollywood records. No think was with Capitol. And that's what out of touch bloodshot waste and so good are all on? No, I was never with Hollywood records. No, Hollywood Republic, I think they were with Republic, but I was never signed to them because actually I did a audition to be signed to the Disney label.

It was so funny because first of all, I was very nervous, but I was in like a little yellow dress and my short little blonde hair was in like pigtails and I was singing covers from Boombox. And their their comment was we already have so many blondes and so they didn't sign me because they had like Olivia Holt and a few other blondes that were on the channel at the time. They were swimming in blondes. Yeah their blonde quota filled and so they didn't sign me and I remember being devastated. Oh you did an Imagine Dragons song 2013 on top of the world. That was in the pilot of Live and Medi. Nothing on Disney was ever my doing.

I'm sure you know that. I think a lot of people don't. Disney would be like, this is your song you're singing this week, and then you go in on the weekend, and then you shoot on a Monday. It gets done and dusted for you. Technically I'm on them, but they're not mine.

Okay, got you. You do the three descendants. At that time, now you're in two wildly successful things. So who were you looking at that you were like, I'm grateful, but also I fucking want to be this person. What things did you want to be in? And were you like, I want to be Emma Stone. My film heroes, I loved Renee Zellweger. I love Nicole Kidman. I loved Jessica Lange. But then also I was hugely obsessed with like Rocky Horror and all of these things

that I truly shouldn't have been watching at a young age. And I was like, that's the kind of uncomfortable, campy, weird left of center shit I wanna be making. And honestly, still what I wanna be making is kind of a page turn and I'm moving on way too quick, but I just did the show for Amazon that has got that weird little sticky icky thing about it in the script. What show is that? Right now it's being called 56 Days, which is the same title of the book. It's based on this

best-selling novel without saying too much because I'm sure that Amazon would have like a helicopter land on your roof and be like, shut the fuck up. I can't compare it to anything that I just listed because it's drastically different, but it's got the same sort of touch of unease. Yeah, yeah. Do you like Severance? I have never watched Severance. I know I'm so in trouble for that. Yeah. I just need your SAG card before you leave. Yeah. That's fine. I'll just put it through the shredder. Yeah. It's my thing you didn't see it but I am gonna have to get your SAG card. And Ben Stiller just texted me. He is furious. He is not gonna work with you ever. Okay so then we'll just race through. You did Shmigadoon, Acting, Acting, Acting.

I wanna talk about singing now. Because while you're starting to release music and it's getting very well received, is there any battle between which one I want more, which one I wanna focus on, which one's more rewarding? You have a finite time and so you have to make some decisions and where on the scales are those two things? So I had this super bullish weird thing where I was like,

film and TV is so fun and so is music. Why doesn't everybody try to do it? And then I tried to do both at the same time and I was like, I am going to be hospitalized. Yeah. You simply can't. I wish I could explain it because I was uneducated and I was like, I want to do both.

And I would assume that many people think that it's very doable. I'm here to tell you, I have tried to do both. You simply can't. A couple of reasons. One is that film and TV is scheduled for you. Unless you are biggest name, top 20, you can't be like, I love this film. I would love to shoot it in London in September

after my tour. That's never gonna happen. So music is really more up to you, except festivals and shows. And the problem is that when you also have a large team who's doing music and film, the thing that ends up getting cannibalized is music. It seems the most flexible,

but then I'm over here being like, I wrote a fucking album, and it's not gonna come out till when? And it's like, yeah, but you should really do this show. And it's like, I absolutely would love to do the show. We're also making an album. And so you can't plan at all. Yeah, I guess we've seen people do both,

but it's a spell of one, a spell of another. You don't see some of the number one movie in America and they're on tour. Yeah, well, and also that's the other thing is if you have a number one hit, it's not just you look at your phone and you go like, oh, it's doing well on Spotify. You have to promote that shit all over the world.

You have to be performing. You have to be doing everything. A hit will take over your life. I had a hit song in 2022 and it was the only thing I did. It's crazy what a hit song will do. Yeah, I'm fascinated. Of course, we interview musicians and the economics of it are so fascinating to me

that a hit equals now it's time to work and make money off this thing that you didn't make any money off of it being a hit. Opposite of a movie, which is like, it's a hit, great. You got the money. Yeah, yeah, who cares? My part's over. And then the next paycheck will be bigger, but this is, oh is like, it's a hit, great. You got the money. Yeah, yeah, who cares? My part's over. And then the next paycheck will be bigger, but this is, oh shit, this thing's hot.

I gotta go everywhere now and perform this everywhere. You are your own sort of one man show in the sense, yes, you have people to do your hair and your makeup, like everybody in the industry has their team, but like if you show up on a movie set, it's everybody else's job to pull off the thing. It's your job to pull off the thing how they ask you to do it.

Whereas with music, you are the director, you are the producer. Like you are the little drummer boy in the front of the parade being like, go again, go again. You are your own sort of planetary system. And I am someone who really runs everything with my music. I have an incredible team around me, but I'm not one of those artists that's like, I trust you. I do trust my team, but I'm also like, let me hear it again, let me hear it through headphones.

Let me hear it through a speaker. It's gotta be the exact thing that's in your mind. And I will be sitting in the studio being like, can we do a breath here? I'll go in down to the final last day and I will be working on mood boards with video directors and I will be scouting people. Well, you're the product in this domain

and in a movie, the movie's the product. Yeah, and I'm so obsessive just because I really have an idea of what I want it to be. And that's part of the fun. My partner is always like, baby, you got to chill out. You're going to burn out. And I'm like, yeah, but it's that extra 10 percent of attention that for me as an artist takes it from whatever I did my job to, oh, my God, I'm so proud of this. Is it weird? Like you won best new artist MTV Video Music Award in 2022, and you won New Artist of the Year American Music Awards in 2022.

You've been singing for 10 years. Is that weird? It was weird in the sense that I actually had not been doing it for that long. The music I released initially was my partner's music and Disney's music at the time, my partner. Then the music after that, it wasn't music I was entirely writing.

Because labels are very like, you came from Disney, you have a good following, we think you should go on this record. And I would rewrite some of it, but not really all of it. And it would be stuff that I kind of liked. You made it just enough of your own to do it, but it wasn't your own. You didn't feel ownership. No, when I was extremely plagued by I think this is what people want me to be. And I had done that for so long on Disney that I was like, I know how to do that. I guess I'll do that. And then I was enjoying it because it was new, but there was no onus. Boyfriend, the song that I wrote that went a little wild,

it was the first song that I had ever written entirely top to bottom from nothing. All of these other records that I know people have heard and fans have loved that I'm sure I will get back on Spotify one day, they were originally written by other people and then I sort of changed some lyrics to fit more my story just because I was like, I don't think I would say that or I was starting to experiment with writing.

And that's what a lot of artists do is they'll take records that other people have written and they'll put their own spin on it and change some things. Not everybody has the time to take six months to sit in the studio and only do that. So there's no hate or shame in that. That's pretty normal. And then some people, that's their whole gig, they're singer songwriters.

That's what they do. I never really believed in myself enough to try to write a whole fucking song based on like a concept that I had had. And I one day was just like, maybe. And so I went into the studio to try to start to write and my label really didn't think anything of it. They were like, have fun, babe. You know, like dropping me off at the mall.

They were like, okay. I wrote Boyfriend pretty early on. I think it was the first one that I wrote in that time, or if not the first, like one of the first. And I randomly put it up on TikTok because that's what the label is like. Everything's on TikTok. And I woke up to a crazy record breaking. Like I had almost no TikToks up. Literally the TikTok was live photos that I had taken of myself that I turned into video and just put together. Oh, together. Like it was not a good TikTok. And I guess singing about being bisexual or attracted to women.

My sister knew all about it. She looks at my calendar and she goes, oh, you're interviewing Dove today? And I said, yeah, are you hip to Dove? And she's like, well, yeah, I watch all the descendants with the girls and then her song, Boyfriend's Awesome, and she was telling me all about it.

And I'm like, oh, this is interesting. Let's hit her a radar. You're hitting a lot of different demos. We got those demos, which is great. My friend's mom is very into you. Oh, really? Yeah. In many ways.

We got them all. We got them all, yeah. So anyway, it was the first time I'd ever experienced something that I had conceptualized, brought to life. Before you, this didn't exist, and after you, this exists. Right, and then kind of before that, I felt like I didn't exist. And then kind of before that I felt like I didn't exist and then After this thing I felt like I finally

Existed in a more authentic way in the world than I ever had before and also coupled with this coming out of it all Which I was pretty afraid to do I can tell you what my fear would be What is it my fear would be? Oh people are gonna think this is opportunistic. Oh interesting No, I mean I got some of that after I came out, but it was actually, I had made a music video for another song that I had released called We Belong. Wasn't a music video, it was like a visualizer because we had no money for a real music video.

And there were all these faces being drawn and like embracing in cartoons, and someone sent it back to me, and I realized that it was only representing heterosexual couples, even though they were drawings, they were very like white heterosexual couples, boldly non-inclusive. And so I just sent a note back being like,

can we get some more representation in this cartoon? Everything still remained white and outlining. It was just more varied and silhouette and men and women, and then women and women, men and men, androgynous looking. I was just like, this is weird. It doesn't really represent me. And also it was kind of a jarring POV for me where I was like, that is so hetero and narrow.

And so I put that out. And then it was like the time when people were putting emojis to hint at what was coming. So when people were like, when's your new single coming out? And I was like, emoji emoji, and then like the women loving women emoji kissing. And then the song came out and it wasn't about being queer. And everybody was like, you're queerbaiting,

this is horrendous. you're queerbaiting! This is horrendous! Well, it's queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is when something is for the queer community and it's not quite, or you keep it in the hetero bubble, but you sort of give crumbs. It's a marketing technique that a lot of shows have been accused of where they'll also give same sex people a lot of tension, hinting that there might be something there

and then they never fully go there because they're like, that's not really what it is. They just want to get the queer community and sort of make money. But not commit to telling the whole storyline. That's queerbaiting. So I had to basically go on Instagram Live at the time and be like, guys, I'm not queerbaiting, I'm queer.

And I just wanted more representation in the fucking cartoon. And the emoji was just hinting at the music video. I was so confused by it. It wasn't a dog whistle for the group. No! And also at that time, I never said it publicly, but all my friends, all my family, they knew I was queer.

But I just hated that I had to say it. But I did. I guess that's what I'm wondering. When does that paradigm start? Or it doesn't really need to be declared. Not that I care. I'm not like someone's like, why do you gotta tell me? That's not what I'm saying.

It's just like, when will it not even be interesting to anybody? We have a long way to go. Yeah, I do too. We've made like a little bit of progress within our own Internet II liberal Bubble of people who are maybe queer community adjacent and also just like within the queer community There's some weird discriminatory things even within the queer community. People are very heavy on Labels you have to define yourself. You have to know what it is, also show us proof. There's a lot of weirdness. Purity tests.

Yeah, and also just if we have that issue within the community, I think we have quite a ways to go. Well, that's the erroneous assumption is that there would be some kind of unified harmony among a group of people because they have a single thing in common. It's like, well, no, it's just like one element of who they are. They're from every socioeconomic bracket, they're from every ethnicity. They're from every type of trauma background. I had a feeling that people were going to say I wasn't queer enough.

Sure. But I didn't really have an issue being second guest because I truly was like, I know who I am. My hangup was more, my experience in my personal life was so liberal, wonderful, beautiful, kind, protected, sweet, nurturing, supportive. And my experience of the outside world was so liberal, wonderful, beautiful, kind, protected, sweet, nurturing, supportive, and my experience of the outside world was so scary. I was also on TV in the 2010s.

We were still like, she's 110 and so she's fat. People were being so crazy. It was tabloid time. People were just making shit up about celebrities. I was on the tail end of all that really ugly shit. My body type now would have been like, ooh, she's really, you know, it was a terrible time. Oh yeah, yeah.

Well, just six years prior to you being on that show, they're asking 17 year old Britney Spears if she's had a breast augmentation in the middle. Like a six year old dude is asking her. Or if she's still a virgin. Yeah, everyone's asking her. It's so crazy. You still a virgin?

Yeah, but really? What about anal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know it counts still, right? It counts. It was so bad. And so I just hadn't really recovered from that or thought that society would be like, rock on,

you're queer, we kind of knew it. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah. Okay, so now you're releasing more singles. You did, I'm afraid to say, is it alchemical? Oh yeah, yeah. That's a weird word for me. Is that a real word?

Alchemy. Oh, I know alchemy is a word, but alchemical. When something is... I believe you, I've never heard it. No, but we should hear it. No, I'm needing to prove this to you right now. Please do. I'm feeling like this space is no longer safe.

Educate me. You know, the practice of alchemy, when something is something that can transmute energy, it is alchemical. And it was volume one, there has to be a volume two. You would think. Yes. Logic would follow. You painted yourself in a box there a volume two. You would think. Yeah. Logic would follow.

Painted yourself in a box there a little bit, which is great. No, but it's kind of country just to have alchemical volume one. It's like, where's alchemical volume two? It's like in the vault, baby. Can I make a pitch? Yeah.

Do another album. Call it alchemical volume three. No, some completely different name, volume one. And just your thing is you call everything Volume One. That's so mean. And then maybe we'll get to a Volume Two. One day, we'll be like Volume Two, it'll be like 40 songs. Oh, her thing is Volume One.

I didn't know that. That's cool. I thought it was funny to do All Chemical Volume One and Three and then just be like, where's Two? And it's like, you haven't heard it? It's very Taylor Swift of you. Oh really? You know, skipping things and then big releases.

That's true, that's true, I could learn. I went in to write what I thought was gonna be Alchemical Volume 2, but this crazy thing happened. I spent two years basically off the face of the earth and processing a lot of trauma. I found my dad's baby journal and that sounds like it's nothing, but I truly had all of this storyline in my head

that my dad didn't like me, didn't love me, didn't ever see me, didn't ever know me. So I had all of this unresolved shit. Probably with men in general, I went through like a horrendous breakup. Just one of those like, if I could tell it, you'd be like, no, no. Like it just kept getting worse.

And I not going to talk about it, but it was something that really truly like took me out at the knees. I don't even know how the fuck it happened, if I'm honest. I went through two really bad long-term relationships, kind of back to back. The first one was kind of all bad. The second one had had its beautiful moments

and then towards the end it was just horrendous and I was in this like weird situation where my friend had just passed, so I was coming off of anti-depressants and I was trapped in Canada during COVID, couldn't leave, no one could come see me. She's Louise. And then we broke up and I was like, zzzzz,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 2021 I was kind of listless and that was when I dyed my hair came out real boyfriend and then boyfriend came out and then

I was like kind of listless again because I was like, I don't know what I'm doing I don't know how to follow up this song. I didn't write anything. It can be a burden I was like, I don't even know how I did it the first time and I also won all these awards prematurely Which then I was like guys, are you fucking sure? I'm a fraud I got lucky and I don't know how to do this again. So much imposter syndrome And so then I found my dad's baby book and I basically swore off of dating anybody rest of 2022 into most of 2023. And I dipped into the deepest, darkest depression.

And I just fell off the face of the planet and did a lot of internal work. And everybody was like, you gave up your career. You don't give a fuck. And I was like, I can't make myself get out of that. Yeah. We've got bigger fish to fry. Yeah, I was like, I can't make myself get out of bed. Yeah. We've got bigger fish to fry. Yeah, I was like, I will get to it.

In a year, it kind of hit me all at once. My best friend was like, you have never stopped working. And I was like, yeah, but if I stop, everything's gonna find me. And then it did. Yeah, it always does. Yeah, and I was like, fuck you, Veronica. You were fucking right.

I don't know how I'm gonna get myself out of this. And so I just bared down, isolated myself, which is not something I recommend, but something I definitely did on instinct, kept myself out of trouble, stayed in my house, and then had a lot of dark nights of the soul and just kind of dug, cleansed, dug, cleansed, and basically purified myself in the craziest way.

And then I met my partner. Yeah, the Italian stallion. The Italian stallion. And then I tried to write the album, the Italian stallion. The Italian stallion. And then I tried to write the album. Two months after we started dating, I wrote the first song about him. And it was very clear that the album was going to be a massive departure from anything

I was doing before. I was like, why are we trying to write a part two when I was so depressed in those songs, and this one is like a fully different book? Why am I trying to make them be married? I can't. Right. That's why you're gonna release a new album

called Volume One. Just Volume One. And then you'll get depressed again. It's life. And then I'll get depressed again. It's coming. We got it scheduled. I'm gonna be depressed probably from November to like March,

I would say, so don't reach out. No, no, no, honestly, I don't mean to make light. But you're having tons of success with now your happy Falling in Love song. I really didn't expect that, I don't mean to make light. But you're having tons of success with Now You're Happy, Falling in Love song. I really didn't expect that. I couldn't have written this album if I had not dropped off the face of the planet and learned a little bit more about who I was as an adult and as an individual. Yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. ["The Daily Show Theme Song"] In going through all the dad stuff, I mean, here's what I would hope for you. Did you come to accept, oh no, he most definitely loved me like crazy, and he most definitely had a lot of conditions that had nothing to do with me.

Yeah, it's so funny because finding this baby book was really a pivotal thing in my human evolution timeline. I can't overemphasize enough what it did for me. This came straight out of that excerpt, which was something I apparently said to him on the changing table when I was two, like barely verbal, we'll be friends forever table when I was two, like barely verbal. We'll be friends forever. And he was like, hold on, and had to date it and time it. And he was like, we will be friends forever. But there was so much in there that was like,

today you read the first word out of your newspaper. You're so smart. You know, like stuff that I never got from him when he was alive. Stuff that he was too sad to tell me as I was growing up. And I think just knowing that he really did see me, the things that he would say about me, I was so shocked were things that were still true now.

He was like, you're so intense. You're so independent. You're so fiery. You always stand up for yourself. You always apologize first. You always make sure everyone around you is okay. And I was like, how do you glean this from someone who's five and under? I don't know. You must be really paying attention. Yeah, he knew you. He saw you. Yeah.

Yeah, and so I think like God, I'm like fully crying. But I think there was something in that I had always thought that there was something wrong with me. Of course. And also the way that my dad really didn't love my mom very well. My mom and I were so similar. I was like, there's something wrong. He doesn't love us. He doesn't like us. And I really like and love him. Yeah. And so I think it really skewed my perspective on having to be something for so many people. I thought that I had to win love. I thought that I had to put up with dark things to be worthy, to be good enough.

Also, growing up with an unstable parent, you really start to sort of calculate and read other people's behaviors and triggers before they get triggered. And so you're walking on eggshells. You're trying to be the perfect everything. You're trying to control the environment they're in so the bad thing doesn't set off. And you start to do that in everything. Yeah. You become neurotic about your surroundings. And apologetic. Anyway, all of that is to say that when I read

that actually I was entirely wrong and he couldn't wait to see who I would turn into and truly saw me. Madly in love with you. Yeah, and in the way that I was with him, I was finally able to put this massive rock down. Oh, I have always been exactly who I am. I have always been seen as the person I am today and really he didn't miss anything.

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's very sweet. If he could love me like that, I can love me like that. Yeah. Yeah. That also I think was really what made my life what it is now is that fucking baby journal. So keep a journal for your fucking kids. Well then let's you enter into this Italian stallion

situation, a much probably healthier version of yourself. Oh yeah. What's different about an Italian? Yeah. Oh, that's not what I was gonna say. Don't come out, you should just not. That's not what I was gonna say. What were you gonna say?

I was gonna say what's different about him than the others. How's he not part of the pattern? Exactly. Without bringing anyone else into it, my political answer, what my partner is that I have never seen firsthand is he is the most honest, beautiful, truly off the charts, intelligent, funny as fuck, kind, good-hearted person. Why did you do this to me?

Sorry, I don't know how to talk about anything else. I hear other things after this. Both of our mascara is running. I also love this laugh like you're in pain. You're like, ah. So crazy. That border's unmoniacal. Oh yeah, yeah. I'm right there with you, baby. Well, one thing I read that you said about him, which I thought was really neat, is there

seems to be an embrace of a dual masculinity, femininity that maybe is Italian, maybe it's just the group that you're surrounded by, but that they seem to have a great comfort in being both sides. He's really in both of his energies, I would say. He's really masculine and feminine in all of the most beautiful ways. I always like to say that I would have found him in any body.

I truly think that he is the most beautiful soul. He's kind of shy, and so actually I think he puts out this air of unapproachability. Aloof. Yeah, which is really just, he's introverted. The thing that he said to me first that then I started saying, because it's really true, is that I was really afraid of humans at the time that I had met him.

And I had really been convinced that something was wrong with me. And I was not allowed to engage with the other humans for fear of either me inadvertently harming them or being harmed. And I was starting to get really introverted and weird. And when I met him and when he asked me out, it was maybe only three or four weeks into dating that we were crying and doing the deep dive. And he was like, I think I really needed you to come into my life because I was starting to disappear. That was exactly what it was for me. He's my proof that I can be here in the most beautiful way because I have the most incredible friends.

But the way that he sees me is something that I've never experienced and the way that we're best friends. And I think that's really one of the cornerstones of our relationship is just the way that we are so healthy for each other. We really are normal human beings first. It sounds like he's giving you permission to just be you. Oh yeah, the main difference I really can stand on is that he wants me to be as big and expressed

and healthy and whole and off the rails. Whoever I am, he wants me to be that at a 10. Very few guys are secure enough to let you be a supernova and not be afraid they're gonna lose you. And that was really my experience. He really couldn't be more the opposite. If I'm ever hiding in any way, he's like, what the fuck are you doing?

He's my biggest amplifier. And that to me has just been so healing. Also just for like my inner child. We love this kind of guy. We love this fucking man. This guy's all right. This guy's okay. He's good, he's good.

He's good. He's a good guy, he's a bikini. What the fuck is a bikini? My best friend Erin and I, a time stock like mafioso, and we just thought, what if one of the family's last name was Bikini? But they had to sell it.

It's like, don't worry, he's with us. He's Bikini. He's Bikini. It's just funny to say the word bikini like it's tough. It. It's like, don't worry, he's with us. He's Bikini. He's Bikini. It's just funny to say the word Bikini like it's tough. It's just like, yeah, yeah, like it's tough. This guy's fucking Bikini. Oh, you don't wanna fucking go over there. It's a whole family of Bikinis, all right?

This place is full of Bikinis. The whole block is fucking Bikinis. You don't even wanna go over there. The guy parking your car? Bikini. Bikini. The guy serving you a dish? Bikini. They're everywhere.

Watch your mouth. So stupid. I wanna make sure I'm plugging the right thing. Too much. Too much's sipping you a dish. Bikini. They're everywhere. Watch your mouth. So stupid. I wanna make sure I'm plugging the right thing. Too Much. Too Much. Too Much, Too Much, Too Much. You said it first. Great song, watch the video, great video.

Thank you. Tell me what's coming this year. Too Much is in charge right now. Yeah, Too Much is running the show. It's the bell of the ball. She's the bell of the ball. I have a new single coming out very, very soon. We're kind of vacillating between two,

but I'm pretty sure I know which one I want it to be. What month is it? March? Okay, I have a new single coming out next month. Okay, great. And then probably just one more, and then somewhere in there, the album. You'll do the album.

We'll do the album. Well, Dove slash Chloe. Your friends call you Chloe, your work associates call you Dove. Uh-oh, what do we get to call you? Her Dove was her dad's nickname for her. Well what should we call you? What did we earn today?

I want to go with Dlowey. Dlowey? It's like Dolores. Or Clove. Clove. Clove is good. Clover. Oh shit!

Yeah, get that vape mist in the atmosphere. Get that nicotine mist all up in the atmosphere. Use a little nice smoky scent environment. This has been really one of my faves. This was so fun Really? I love if I get a crying in an episode. Like once a year I get a crying Once a year? I'm feeling so connected. I'm feeling so high-vibing No, I'm the same. Well the father daughter stuff's a real cheap shot So pretty high odds of getting some tears out of me. But this was incredible. This was so nice.

Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this. You're wonderful. You deserve everything. Thank you. And I'm gonna get your friend's gold tooth person. I'm gonna get your friend's gold tooth. The listener viewer will see me at some point in the near future with a gold tooth

and we will have you to thank. Yeah, we're gonna know this is where it all started. All right, well come back. Okay, I will. All right. Just like tonight for dinner? Yeah, yeah, yeah, come back. You all started. All right, we'll come back. Okay, I will. Please. Just like tonight for dinner? Yeah, yeah, yeah, come back. You can just live here.

Don't even come back. A bikini reunion. Yeah. Sure. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Hello, happy fact check.

Happy fact check, you've been gone. We recorded on Thursday. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which normally is one second ago. Sure. Right? Sure. But I went to Disneyland.

Yeah. All day Friday. Went there Thursday night. Then flew crack ass to Austin on Saturday. Went to a sprint race, waved a checkered flag. Yeah, then went to the race on Sunday, walked another 10 miles, then Monday went to the track and rode all day, then flew back last night.

So I feel like we haven't worked in three weeks. Right. I also feel like it's been a while. Mm-hmm. But for- Do you feel rusty? For the, yeah, I don't remember how to do it. I also feel like it's been a while. Mm-hmm. But for- Do you feel rusty? For the, yeah, I don't remember how to do it. It's for the opposite reason though.

Okay. I, last week, I tried to get everything done, all the edits, so that I didn't have to work on Friday. With, what were you- I just didn't want to. I just wanted the day. I needed a day. Yeah, you had to relax.

And I did end up having to do a tiny edit in the morning, but it was fine. Oh, and I had a meeting. But I was done by 11.30. Oh, wow. Virtually a three-day weekend. Yes, and then you know what else I did? On Monday, I decided the same thing.

Oh, wow. And I was like, I'm gonna just have to do extra on Tuesday, but it's okay. Okay. And I really needed it. I didn't really realize it, but I really needed like a little tiny chunk of. Rusty, compressed. Rusty,

just getting to decide what I wanna do and not think like, and at what point am I gonna go open my computer and do X, Y, and Z. I think your skin is proof of it. I'm wearing new makeup. Oh, wow. Did you discover that in your leisure time? Yeah. A new brand. And, well. Did you discover that in your leisure time? Yeah.

A new brand? And, well, actually, maybe it's not the makeup, although today is the first day I'm wearing this new makeup. Okay. I have also been using vitamin C serum, which does brighten your complexion. It does. Yes, and I used to use it,

but I stopped all my stuff when I went to my new- When you had your hard reset. When I had my hard reset, the goddess at Corrective Skincare, I like just stopped everything and just did my basic, basic regimen with her. But then I was like, ooh, I'm gonna dip my baby toe in the water.

Yeah, you kinda wanted more action. A little bit. Yeah. And so far. One day. No, no, I've done vitamin C for like a week. Oh, okay. Did you tell her you were going to?

No, but she's cool. Mm. She's cool with it. Do I need it? Vitamin C serum's great. It's a great serum. Yeah. Experts agree.

They do. I mean, it's good to wear sunscreen if you're gonna? Vitamin C serum's great. It's a great serum. Yeah. Experts agree. They do. I mean, it's good to wear sunscreen if you're gonna use vitamin C serum. Oh, okay. I don't. Yeah, well, you're browns. I think that's for people that are white, probably. No, but actually I am a little nervous.

So there is this little thing on my face here. And we don't think it's a pimple. So now I'm a little anxious that it is some sorry world that it is some something that might need removal. Now, if I need it removed, I did think this all through. It was like, what if I have a bandaid on my face for like two weeks? That's cool.

As long as you say like, I got it. I got careless with a knife and stabbed myself. If there's some kind of cool reason. Cool twist on it. Raccoon scratched you. Okay. Yeah, dog bite. But yeah, I had something removed and I have a bandaid.

I know. Or this is a wart removal. I don't think it's a wart. I think it would be a. Hypoplasia. Cancer. Hyperplasia. Look, is it okay, really, if I have to get this removed

and I have to have a bandaid on my face for two weeks? I think we're gonna have to figure something out. I can't. Perform with a bandaid on your face. I can't. I can't even perform in life. I'll have to be in my room for two weeks. And you don't wanna, you don't wanna ruin one of your trips

because I was gonna say you could have it done right before spring break. But I really wanna go. You just gotta do what Sia does. Oh, wear something over my face. Or your haircut. Okay, like a wig, but it's in front of my face. Well, I don't think you would need to supplement your hair.

You have plenty to pull it in front of your band-aid. Oh, like this? What was it the time you did pull your hair as much as you could? Is you had a chemical peel? Oh yeah! Remember? And then we had a hot gas.

Oh, it was Chris Pine, right? Yes. Oh my God, that's right. I had it, it wasn't chemical, it was herbal. And there was just like a oval slit in the middle of your face. Yeah, I really, I wore my hair. I was like really wearing it like this.

Yeah, real protective. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. I guess I'll, okay, fine. I guess I'll do that if I have a bandaid. Okay. Maybe. I don't know.

Oh, speaking of, big revelation, since the last time we spoke. Oh shoot, I think I may have cut it. We talked about hats. I do think I cut it. Oh, okay. We talked about hats. Then make the cut.

Because I don't wear hats, ever. But since we talked about it, I've worn a baseball hat twice. You have and how do you like, how's it going? Okay, I like it because I feel like a different Monica when I wear it. Oh, it's a whole identity. It's a completely different identity.

And what is that version of Monica like? Likes baseball games? She's, no, she's very, what's this face like? Over it? Oh, she's over it. No, it's not, it's not so much over it as like, I'm just so chill. By the way, the look you just gave,

a woman gave me in a restaurant on Monday night. Why? I was walking from the bathroom and I like caught eyes with this woman and this man. And like, she was was just looking at me straight and I was just looking at her back straight. And then all of a sudden she went, gave me a real weird eye roll.

And I was like, that was weird. What were you wearing? Ah. Black t-shirt and jeans. And was it a fancy place? Oh, no, no, no, no. It's, it was great. It's Mediterranean.

It's right under the Soho house. It was very- Oh, I love that place. Do you know that place? It's got like three letters. Yes. R-A-B or R-I-P. It's not it.

I think there's an A in it. A, A or B or. It had really, okay. That's the or B or? It had really good, okay. That's the place that Erica, Jess, Laura, and I fled to when we got kicked out of Barton Springs. Oh, really? Abba Austin. Abba?

Yeah. ABA? Yep. Okay. ABA. ABA. Always be achieving. Always be aiding.

Always be aiding. Yeah, we went there. Yeah, big huge tree outside. Yeah, gorgeous. So cute and tasty as hell. Yes, and then a very funny thing happened, which was I hung out with my friends, Amy and Rory, the whole time.

Rory and I went to the both races together. And what's so nice is he lends me one of his cars while I'm in town. He did the last time we were there. And it's a very nice car. Yes, when we were there for Unboxed, he also lent it to me. And I find that to be one of the most touching things, imaginable, just because I'm super into cars.

Yeah. And I do not like loaning my cars out. Yes. And it's a very, very nice car. Very nice. It's a Bentley Speed. It's crazy, like it's a car I wouldn't personally. Lone out. Yeah, or by myself, you know, it's so nice.

It's gorgeous and it's green. Yeah, it's a sexy green. And we went to Dairy Queen in it. And I was nervous. I did again. I did again. You did? Uh-huh.

Anyways, I love it. I feel so fancy driving around Austin in it. And it really touches me. So we went out to eat on Saturday with his dad and his stepmom and Angie. And I was there for, oh, Lambert's our spot. So I had put my credit card down. I gave it to him as soon as I got there

and I was there before them. So the bill comes, I pay, he's furious. He really wants to pay. You can't pay, you got two stakes. Exactly, I knew I was gonna eat like an asshole, and I did. And so what was really funny was he said, okay, tomorrow night I'm paying.

And I said, okay, well, we'll see. And then he texted me in the day, if you don't let me pay, I'm not loaning you my car anymore. Oh shit. And I said, really good leverage. I'm definitely gonna let you pay because I wanna borrow your car. And then he decided last minute,

I'm gonna stay home with the kids, just Ange is coming. But you must let Ange buy. I was like, okay, okay. So we have this dinner, it's spectacular. There's a woman with a huge group of people, they're all from Minnesota. The manager comes over and says,

this woman has bought your dinner. Oh my gosh. And sent over a dessert. That's so sweet. So I was like, oh my God, Angie, I can't wait for you to go home and say, you still, you didn't get to buy, even though I agreed. I didn't buy, but nor did they. That is the universe giving a big old wink.

Yes, yes. very nice woman. That's so sweet, shout out. I gave her a big hug, big strong hug. Okay, that reminds me of two, okay, that reminds me of something. It has been a long time. Yes, right, weeks. But pause on that, pin in that.

Okay. Let's talk about paying and stuff. Okay, great. When I first started working for you guys, I only had so much dollars in my pocket. Sure, sure. And I was coming off the soul cycle and stuff. But we all would hang out as a group

and then we'd go to dinner. And I always felt like this is ridiculous that they're paying every time and I think it's bad. And then people would offer and I would offer. And I think sometimes when you're in the position of paying, you feel like it's a just like gesture of an offer, right? But it's not. Like I think, and now I'm on sort of the other side of this

and I do also struggle because I'm on sort of the other side of this, and I do also struggle, because I wanna treat my friends to things. I also understand what it's like when they're saying, please, please let me pay. I know. Cause I'm like, I think you're just saying that cause you wanna be a polite, good person. But actually what I do know for me is

if you let someone pay every single time, you end up feeling like a mooch. Right. Yeah. And it feels bad. Two things are happening for me and it's a challenge. One is, it was pointed out to me by Tom Hanson, very smart man who I think learned from a therapist. Great, we love therapy.

Yeah, he's like, you have like, relationships have to be reciprocal. Yes. And that's true, I get that. And it's just a bummer that it has to be seen as reciprocal just financially. It doesn't though. Because here's my dilemma. So I get it.

People want to, well, A, they wanna treat you and they want to reciprocate, but I have an ethical dilemma with it, which is like I get paid too much money. It seems crazy that of the two of us, you're working your ass off. That's not to say that that's Rory and Angie's situation. Just in general, if it's-

Everyone's working hard. Everyone's working hard. And if it's a lot less of a ding to me, I just feel, I think they like, this feels crazy. The example I gave my mom, cause my mom tries to pay. And I like this, yeah. I said, mom, just imagine we're walking through the desert

and you were allotted a half gallon of water and I was allotted a swimming pool. imagine we're walking through the desert and you were allotted a half gallon of water and I was allotted a swimming pool. And we're traveling through the desert and you wanna share your water with me. It's nice, but I just ethically, I get this fucking, it would be so wrong of me to take your water. I think that too, but what there is a risk of

is a power imbalance can start forming. I know, but what blows is it's mostly in the mind of the person who's getting something for free, which I get. Yes, there are certain personality types that it does lead to resentment. Hence, Tom telling me that you gotta make sure you're- I think for different people,

resentments on both sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there can definitely be a, I've done so much for you. And now, and you aren't doing, you know, whatever. I think humans, even though we think we're bigger than that, sometimes it slips in. We're keeping score.

It's tricky though. Yeah, I think it's tricky. Well, like I'll notice like, okay, I'm about to make Rory mad. Like you wanna feel equal to anyone in a relationship, friendship, anything, you know? And so if one person, again, it's tricky because I feel the same as you.

I'm like, I am happy to pay because I also don't contribute in many other ways that these other people are contributing. So to me, it's all equal. But there is something about finances for people that make everyone go bonkers. I have a friend who does well, but also has times of not being, struggling a little bit.

And she is actually like, if I for out to dinner, she'll definitely offer and I'm like, no. And she will just say, thank you, I really appreciate it. Because she also understands like, yeah, we just spent this dinner talking about my- Yeah, how rough struggle. Yeah. Yeah, that would be kind of crazy for me to be like,

okay, yeah, we'll split it in half now. Yeah. Yeah, it's just tricks. But money makes relationships complicated. Yeah. It really does. I hate that, but I think it's real. I know what you'd like to go is like,

oh, we're kind of like a group. One of us got this thing, I'm gonna share it. But it is complicated. Yeah. And I'm trying to think, when I was on the other end of it, I wasn't resentful, but I was judgmental. What do you mean?

Like when I was broke, it may be, where I'd experience it with is my brother would pay for everything, which was so nice. And he really took, he took my vacations. That's nice. Yeah, it was super nice. And it was a nice luxury in those eight years of being broke. But I, cause I coveted money so much and I didn't have it.

I would be like, God, they're so wasteful. Like the way they order food, so much stuff goes uneaten. That's interesting. Yeah, so I was like often judgmental, which I regret. Cause now surely if you were witnessing me, you would easily say that, anyone would. Like my thing is I'll order too much food if people are over or whatever.

I act just like my brother does. So I have to think, yeah, some people are like probably maybe fine with it and appreciative and also judgmental and that's fair, cause I was. Yeah. It's all based on our baggage. Like I remember walking into my brother's garage and he had like, he had so many snowmobiles.

And I was like, what the fuck does he need all these snowmobiles? He can only ride one. And he's like, they're not fun unless I can have friends come ride and my friends don't own them. And yeah, I look at my garage and I'm like, yeah, there's three motorcycles I don't need, but when Aaron's here, we ride together or, you know, they're only fun if I can loan them.

Maybe you should apologize to him. Maybe I should. That's a good idea. Yeah. But I don't know if he knew I was. I guess. He's like, now it's hard to do. My sister will occasionally listen,

so maybe this would get to him. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's so based on our past too. Cause I don't think I had judgment over like excess, but I didn't grow up feeling like I didn't have enough. So that's probably why. But I definitely felt like I need to be an equal here. And that's my own past stuff.

Okay, now back to my pen. Yes. Mm-hmm. That's my own past stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, now back to my pen. Yes. Something bad happened. Oh. Okay, you know on the streets of places, there are people with clipboards. Yes, who are trying to sign you up for things. Yeah, so trying to sign you up for things. They are always like, it's always a nice cause.

You know, I believe in these people's hearts. Yes. They have good hearts, probably. I don't know them. But I'm never gonna stop and sign a thing on a clipboard. And in fact, when I see, when I like approach anyone with a clipboard,

I get like this sense of dread. Yes, yes, I think we all do. Yeah, I think it's pretty universal. And I think like, oh, what are they, why? It's even worse than someone panhandling. You've somehow like that, you've worked through the guilt of that years ago. And those first, they want something. This is like, they want a good change,

whether or not I agree with their- Right, they want change for the world. But they're out there like volunteering. I know. I know. And they don't, all it would take is just a few minutes of conversation in my signature. Yeah, but I've read some of those things.

I'm like, I'm actually not aligned with this. That's happened to me. But they know, they're smart read some of those things. I'm like, I'm actually not aligned with this. That's happened to me. But they know they're smart. They're very smart because they know what to say, right? They'll say, they'll say. Do you want reproductive rights? Exactly.

Sign this non-toxin Apple, yeah. Do you believe in trans rights? That's a big one where I'm like, yes, but I'm not, I don't wanna talk to you. Like it's like, it gets. And so my normal method where I'm like, yes, but I'm not, I don't wanna talk to you. Like it's like, it gets. And so my normal method is just to like, I just say sorry and I just keep walking with my head down.

I say sorry, honestly, with a little bit of like anger. Yeah, irritability. And Callie taught me, she said, I think a good way to do it is to say, not today, but thank you and keep going. And I was like, that's polite. It also says, I will, just not today. Yep.

And then you really all want, so then you can't go back there if you've used that method. It can't be a place you visit every day. Well, if you think they're gonna be there every day. Yeah, like if you are going grocery shopping, great. That's once a week. Yeah. But your normal Starbucks, you can't say next time

because you'll see them the next day. They're outside Maru a lot. Oh, I know. I've walked like four blocks out of the way to avoid See? Walking past them. They're pre brain on the. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay, so I, okay, she taught me that. I was like, that's good. I'm gonna start adopting that. Cause I don't like the way it feels when I say sorry. Right. So a couple of days later, I was on Larchmont. Of course there's clip borders.

I don't remember what they were trying to get me to do. But I said, not today, thank you. I got a little tripped up because he said, I like your pants. Oh yeah. And I was like, oh, thank you. And then he got, Yes, yeah.

And then he came in again and I was like, oh, not today, but I'd already said it. So that one wasn't great. There's tricks, yeah. That one wasn't great. That was my first attempt. And then on Friday, this past Friday, you're gonna hate this.

Yeah, on my day off, I decided to go shopping, obviously. And on Sycamore. And so I was walking, I see some clipboarders, but I don't know, they're actually not holding a clipboard this time, but they have like some sort of setup. You know?

A kiosk. A kind of makeshift something. And I was like, oh no, okay, not today, thanks. Like I practiced in my head. And then I went up, I started to walk past and they said, something like, do you like the earth or? Oh yeah, do you like breathing fresh air? Yeah, or do you care about the environment?

Or maybe it was like, do you wanna protect something? It wasn't actually that me or that aggressive. Okay. And I said, no, not today, no. And then I got anxious. And so then I started walking really fast. And then the woman, it was a woman and a man. And the woman said, are you?

Oh no. I know. Oh yeah, wow. She said, are you Monica? And I said, oh yeah, I am. And I'm still walking. I mean, this is a nightmare. Yeah, now you don't want to start running.

And I like, my pace is picking up. And I was like, yeah, oh yeah, I am. And she was like, oh my God, I'm a huge fan. And I'm walking still. I can't stop. That's worse, right? It's worse if I'm like, oh, you're a fan. I guess I will come over and chit chat

with you about the earth. Like. Right. Oh, yeah, this is a. This is a really big pickle. Yeah. Oof, yeah, this is a really big pickle. Pats two two, yeah. So yeah, and I was like, oh, thank you so much.

And I meant that. I'm very grateful that this very nice person who's spending, I'm going shopping and this person's spending her day for the earth. Yeah. And she is a fan of us. It's like, this feels like opposite world. It's probably just you, really, make it even worse. I'm sure she's a fan of us. It's like, this feels like opposite world. It's probably just you, really.

Make it even worse. I'm sure she's a fan of you. She probably gets through of me. Well now, we probably lost her. God, Monica, you should have signed. Just sign. Fuck! I didn't have to, oh yeah, oh yeah.

This was actually a part of it. I had parked on the street where it was gonna start towing in 40 minutes. Oh, okay, so you had a time clock. I was on a clock and I hadn't even gotten to the store yet. Oh, yeah. You didn't have time to get political.

You didn't have time to be an activist that day. I didn't. Yeah. It was a shopping, it was my free day. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. I just say, I'm very happy, I'm not sorry. Right. I just go, oh, no, thanks.

Like literally outside of Skylight Books, they say, do you care about the children in Palestine? Oh boy. It's so like saying no, thank you. You've said no, it feels like bad energy. Yeah, right. And that's why I just say sorry. I'm so sorry.

I'm a bad person. Yeah, that's like- I'm a bad person. Yeah, that's like- I'm a bad person. That's the subtext. Yeah, yeah. Anyhow. Well, I hope they clean that up. That's soliciting.

All these signs, all these places have signs that say no. Do you think I should start my own? That's to get these clipboarders gone? Oh, wow, that would be ironic. Yeah, petition to get rid of a measure, state measure to get rid of. You can't hold the clip for it. I feel bad. They're doing such, everyone's so, they're good people.

Like I recognize that, but I just don't, I think honestly, I feel pessimistic that signing this thing is gonna do anything for the children in Palestine. Yeah. What I wanna say is like, I already support them. I've already given money. I've already done my part on both sides. Don't come over here. Also, you guys, you clipboarders over here.

I'm doing my part, signing this to me means nothing, and all you've done is make me so mad. Uh-huh. At this cause now. Now I'm mad at your cause. Right, now I don't like any of the kids of the world. I hate the children of the world now. I'm glad I'm not,

I'm not getting that much clipboard traffic, thank goodness. You don't walk very much. It does make me remember though, you know, in the airport before, back when you could go through security without a plane ticket pre-9-11, there were all kinds of people working the airport. And there is a whole legion of people that come up

and they would hand you a little piece of paper and you look at it, maybe it was lightly like a present. Like it was a tiny little trinket. And then you'd open up and it would say like, I'm deaf and mute. They're working, they used to work at LAX hard. And I remember being like, maybe Chris and I there and like someone was coming up with a little trinket

and I'm like, don't take it, don't take the trinket. Don't. Yeah. Because that one feels like also you're gonna get a hex or what do you call it? Exactly, it's got a spell on you. You might get a spell on you if you take the trinket, you've touched it and you don't give them money.

I know, is that like, is that our generation? We like saw some movie or something that taught us about spells or something. Oh, Slimmer or something. That's a Spielberg. Thinner, right? Is that it? Yeah.

It's not Spielberg, but. I don't know who it is, but Jess talks about Thinner all the time. The most famous king, Stephen King. Right. He gets a, what'd you call it? It's not a hex. No, a scary man will touch you and say thinner,

and then you get really thin and you disappear. Yep. A curse. A curse. A curse, a curse, a curse. Yeah, that's so funny that you bring that. I've never seen it and I had never heard of it. But one time, remember I was at,

again, cause I walk so much, I was at a stop, cause I walk so much. Yeah. I was at a stop light, ready to cross, an unhoused person touched me. Right, I remember that. On the back. Yes, cause it kinda caressed your back. Yeah, and it was really creepy

and I really didn't like it. And then when I told Jess, he said, oh, Theener? Oh, okay. So that was your big update. That was a big update of mine, yeah. The clipboards. Yeah. I like it.

It was a good one. But you told me you had an update. I just wanted to make sure that I got the update. I do have another update. You have another update. Well, but do you want to tell me any of your updates? Let me see if I wrote anything down in my fact check category.

Oh, you know, I've actually formed a, I encourage you to do this. I made a notes folder called bucket list. I've never actually had a bucket list. Have you ever actually written down a bucket list? No. But I thought it was a good idea. So I've done that.

Oh, what's on it? Iowa Man. That's a motorcycle race on the Iowa Man. It's crazy. The one you taught us about here. You said people die. Yeah, every year someone dies. I gotta go to that.

That Iowa bicycle ride that you cross Iowa. Do you need to be in it or can you just go? I'll probably do, there's a day before the race, maybe Saturday or Friday, where you can ride the course. Okay. It has a crazy name, but I would like to ride the course and then spectate for the madness.

Okay. The bicycle ride across Iowa. Okay. That sounds so fun. Great. And then the great loop on a boat, which I've talked about before. Wow.

Of course. It's a 6,000 mile. Of course, all of yours are. Transportation oriented. Yeah. King of conveyance. King of conveyance. The king in conveyance.

Oh no, I haven't written anything down. Okay, well yesterday. Yeah. King of conveyance. The King in conveyance. Oh no, I haven't written anything down. Okay, well yesterday, I relearned Mahjong. Rachel, Anthony, Alison and I used to play Mahjong a lot. Okay. Way back in the day. And now it's like hip, like everyone's playing Mahjong. Yeah, I think Kristen went to like a Mahjong learning day at a friend's house. Kristen's been to a Mahjong thing.

And there's different countries of origin versions of Mahjong. Yeah, American Mahjong is the one that like Jewish women play. And that's the one that's taken off. But there's an Asian one too. It's originally Chinese Mahjong is, play and that's the one that's taken off. But there's an Asian one too. It's originally Chinese, Ba Zhang is, but this is different and it's so fun, but I had forgotten, I completely forgot how to play,

but I felt like annoyed that it was back in, it's like in vogue and I was pre. Yeah. So- Is it more complicated than spades? It's so complicated. It's so complicated. But in such a fun way, I think you'll like it. Oh really?

I think you should learn. I mean, there's parts you're not gonna like cause there's a lot of pomp and circumstance. A lot of pageantry? Yes, there's a whole way of like the way you set up and then you like push your wall out and then the way you deal is very specific and then you do this thing called the Charleston

which is a way of passing. And yes, and then you have a booklet. It's a new one every year. The National Mahjong League puts out a new card every year. And so each card has like many, many lines of variations of what you're basically trying to make on your board. Yeah. Okay. And it's so fun.

And it was- And you play with tiles? Tiles. Tiles. And I was obviously, I bought a set. Yeah, real nice set. Yeah, but actually mine's a little cheeky. Oh, playful? Yeah, the winds have, winds are part one suit-ish of the tiles.

Mine have mermaids on them. Oh, fun. Yeah. So anyway, I was really reinvigorated by it. I didn't win. We played two games and I did not win. So that was hard. That is not sitting well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rachel grew up playing Mahjong. She'd been playing for 27 years. Right, there's like the girls in spades. They'll be unstoppable. Exactly. And her mom plays in tournaments and stuff. Oh, wow.

And so she's the one that taught me and then she taught us yesterday, which was really fun. But also what I think I wanna do, I feel bad because Amy listens to this show religiously. Shout out, hi, Amy. Amy was there last night as part of the learning group. But- Who hosted the learning group? Me.

Oh. I did. It was just Laura and Amy and Rachel. Oh, okay. And then I think what I'm gonna do to get ahead is have another group. Oh, an accelerated group? No, just so that I'm playing double. Okay.

And with Elizabeth as the teacher. So just in case Rachel and Elizabeth have different techniques, I want it all. Okay, you're committed to getting really good at it. Yes. Oh, wow. I guess I should learn. I'm in the process of learning bridge,

which our lessons are like every two months and we all forget. Who's teaching? This nice gentleman. Oh. Yeah, he's a professional Bridge player and teacher. Oh, cool. Yeah.

Well, that's fun. Yeah, but we forget because we've only done two or three lessons and they over six months. That's not good. Yeah, you gotta hit it much harder than that. Anyway, that's my update. Oh, wonderful.

That's my big update. Okay, this is for Dove. Ah! Great episode. What a lovely episode. Beautiful episode. Yeah. I love her.

I love her. I love him. For people who don't remember, that was Seth. Seth's daughter. Seth's daughter. Yeah. Seth Green's daughter. Seth Green's beautiful. Beautiful doesn't even describe it.

She's a- Sparkly as hell. She's a fairy. Yeah. She's like Tinkerbell. Yeah. But with red hair. I don't know what color hair Tinkerbell had.

Probably blonde. Probably, yeah. They like to put those sprites in those fairies, make them blonde. Exactly. Perpetuate. That blondes have more fun,

cause they're fairies. May make wishes and dreams come true. Ugh. Okay. Bloomers. Bloomers. Where do they originate? The bloomer, the Turkish dress, the American dress.

Oh, this is kind of a ding ding ding to Mahjong. It is, yeah. Multiple locations. Or simply reformed dress. Oh, this is kind of a ding ding ding to Mahjong. It is, yeah. Multiple locations. Or simply reform dress. Are divided women's garments for the lower body. They were developed in the 19th century as a healthful and comfortable alternative to the heavy constricting dresses worn by American women.

They take their name from their best known advocate, the women's rights activist, Amelia Bloomer. Now, is it just a skirt or there's pants in it? There's legs. There's legs. There's legs. It's like not a skirt. Yeah, a Bloomer is like.

Shorts? Yeah. Okay. The name Bloomers was derogatory and was not used by the women who wore them who referred to their clothes as the reform costume or the American dress. The Bloomer costume caught on

among some white middle-class women who sought, quote, dress reform as an integral part of the fight for women's equality in the mid-1800s. That's cool. My thing would be back then you didn't have washing machines, you're still hand washing everything. The notion of splitting up the dress into two pieces sounds smart, because what if the top got dirty,

but not the bottom or vice versa? You sat in a little something, you could just wash the bottom, but the top remained clean. It seems like it would cut laundry down. That's true. What do they use, just regular soap? Why?

I think, which is also what you can decompose a body with. Ugh. Yeah, you put a body in a barrel. Don't teach people how to do that. You pack it full of lye, and then you open it up in a couple hours and it's just jello. Ew!

No, I don't know what it is. Oh my God, ew. That was so, I like saw it. I saw it. You saw? A jello body. Oh, yeah, I like saw it. I saw it. You saw. A jello body. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Does having lots of drinks around you mean you have ADHD? No, not necessarily. It doesn't. It could be the result of many things, busy lifestyle, forgetfulness, unrelated to ADHD, or simply a preference for having multiple options available. Mm.

Okay, the gooey duck, which she brought up, they gooey duck hunt or whatever, gather. Rob, can you bring up the pick? It's a wild looking, disgusting clam. Would you eat it? No. Having you eat it? No. Having seen a photo?

No, and I like seafood, but uh-uh. Not this seafood. Native to the coastal waters of the Eastern North Pacific Ocean, from Alaska to Baja, California. Teeming with? Oh my God, typical lifespan of 140 years. Oh my God, you could be eating an animal

that's 130 years old. Oh, that feels unethical. It does. Ew! Gross. It looks like a white elephant penis. Yeah. Yeah, it really looks disgusting.

I don't understand for the listener, the clamshell only covers about 33% of this thing's body. I don't even understand. Ew! Oh my God, that's so phallic. And the clam looks, the shell looks like balls in this photo. Exactly. This looks like a cowboy.

It's very, very penis-y. Oh my, oh! I can't imagine eating this. It's so good for everyone who eats it. And then what's inside a big ball? Well, that's the clammy part. I think that's the gooey. It looks like the skin is peeled off.

That's that bottom part. Oh! Revealing all that tender, delicious gooey duck. That one's uncut. And it's called a gooey duck. That one's uncut. And it's called a gooey duck? Or that one's cut, sorry, excuse me. That one's circumcised. Oh man, God bless.

Yeah. What do you put on that thing? Fucking wasabi or something to kill the? I mean, if it's clams, I guess you boil them, maybe? And slice it into tiny chunks. Yeah, you blanch and boil it, and then you enjoy it raw or sashimi or cook it in various ways, like stir frying.

Anyone putting it on a hot dog bun? Eating it like a tube steak? Wait, this says the shaft can be one meter, three feet. The biggest, the shaft can be one meter, three feet. Oh, definitely elephant size. Wow. Yeah. It's the largest burrowing clam in the world. And as we said, one of the longest living animals of any type.

Wow. Oldest has been recorded at 179 years old. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. I feel like it's not good to eat these. You could be cutting off. Well, what's better, to eat an animal that had 150 year life or to eat one that has only got a year and then you rob half of it?

Probably the former. We'd agree if someone was eating humans, it'd be a lot better if they ate our 100 year olds than our children. Oh, fuck. I guess that's true, but you're also, if you ate a 50 year old gooey duck, you're cutting off- A mean mid-century?

Yeah, like you're really prematurely. Robbing it of a hundred years. A hundred and 20 years. Oh boy. Well, we don't have to deal with this because we're not gonna eat any Goody Duck. Or people. Anytime soon.

Okay, Disney's music label, Disney Music Group is home to Hollywood Records. Okay. That was a fact. Queerbaiting, queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but do not depict same sex romance or other LGBTQ plus representation

or this says harassment, abuse, or targeted provocation of gay people. Do we want to discuss if I'm queerbait or not? If you want. Do you think you are? You're not queerbait. It's not like- That was a derogatory term in elementary school.

Oh, oh yeah. Queerbait, it's so weird. So weird. Cause it's not even, you're just saying you're attractive to queers. Yeah, but back then anything having to do with- Yeah, anything. Anything gay.

Adjacent to gay was- Remember when Gap had, do you remember this? And maybe that was just my gen. For a while, like wearing Gap, Gap stood for gay and proud. Oh, oops. Yeah, so it's like, you weren't, like, if you wore that, people would say gay and proud. Oh, oops. Yeah, so it's like, you weren't, like, if you wore that, people would say gay and proud. Boy, how as a company do you, like-

Combat that. Combat that, include everyone and also go, we're not a strictly gay. Exactly. Yeah. But that was before, now, isn't that so funny? Just not an issue. Right.

Not, thank God. Yeah. Speaking of, thank God. Yeah. Speaking of, real quick. Yeah. What I am noticing, maybe we already talked about this. We did, I'm really sorry. But it's so funny to me watching ER, what was so important back then.

Oh. And what was like top of mind fear wise. Yeah, what was going on? AIDS. AIDS. There are so many episodes? AIDS. AIDS. There are so many episodes about AIDS. Really?

So many storylines. Yeah. Che Che, this four year old boy died of AIDS. It was horrible. He was so cute. There's a very famous clip of Walker Texas Ranger, the Chuck Norris show. You didn't see it, but you know exactly what it is.

Okay. And I wanna say it's Haley Joe Osment is the guest star. He's a little kid. Okay. And it's this clip that goes around my Instagram all the time and it's Walker talk and he's with the little Haley Joe Osment and they're talking to other men. And Haley goes, yeah, and then Walker and I

really had a long talk. And that's when I told him I have AIDS. It's like, how dare they? How dare they make this scene? It's like four cowboys, like, I don't know. Wow. I mean, good for them for trying to- Oh, do we have it?

Oh my God, Rob, you're incredible. We're coming a clip show and I like it. Are we gonna have volume is the question. Oh, there's a woman involved. Oh, maybe I misremembered who he's talking to. It makes sense if it was a woman. Hello, little brother. Hi, and it's a little visitor now.

I don't want you always how you say it in Cherokee. Oh, pardon my French, but I'll be damned. Oh my God. Walker told me I had AIDS. Oh, even better. Walker told me I have AIDS. Oh my God. I wonder did that fall under Walker's purview.

It was a big non sequitur. I'll say, they were like talking about Cherokee and the boys picked up some other language and then Walker told me I have AIDS. What if he just guessed? They're not based on any lab results. Oh my God. Little man, I think you have AIDS,

just judging from the way you walk and- What year was that? 90s? Yeah. Yeah, 90s. 90s was a really big time for AIDS. People that are, yeah, I think I'm imagining Gen Z and stuff.

Like when I was in 11th grade or 10th grade, turn 16, magic came out as having AIDS or HIV. Yeah, HIV. And a book. And it was, oh my God, he's gonna die. And everyone's gonna die that gets it. It's so different. So different.

I mean, do kids even know about AIDS now? My kids don't ever bring up AIDS. I doubt they know, but I was so scared of AIDS. It was in my prayer. It was. Yeah. Even though you didn't do any of the things that would have. I didn't know. I just knew it was a scary thing. So part of it was no cancer AIDS. Yeah. I remember on the other end,

reading a article that said of the population in New York that had HIV, I was like, oh, I'm gonna go to the hospital. Mm-hmm. Reading a article that said of the population in New York that had HIV, 92% were either gay men or intervenious drug users. Right. So I used that to regulate my fear of it. Because I was out on the scene. But you were an intervenious drug user?

No, I was never an intervenious drug user. You never did? I never shot anyious drug user. You never did? I never shot any heroin, no. Thank God. Thank God. Yeah, I might not have come back from that. Yeah. No, no, intervenious drug use for me. Lots of sharing dollar bills with blood on them.

Hepatitis was in the cards for me, but not- God. I guess- You could've got, yeah, you could've got HIV from that. I guess it's really unstable though. It dies when it hits the air pretty easy, like way easier than we were led to believe at the beginning. Yeah. But yeah, because I would have sex with someone,

not wear rubber. Yeah. And I'd be convinced I had HIV for two weeks. Sure. And then I'd go get tested and I didn't. Yeah. And at some point I had to get my hands around this fear. And I based it a lot on that article. I mean, yeah.

And for a while, remember there were like rumors you could just get it from drinking out of someone's glass. At the very beginning, they didn't want kids in pools. I know, so bad. I know. And then this huge stigma, I mean, definitely did not help with gay stigma.

Yeah, no. Yeah, big AIDS, you know? I don't think he'd mind me saying it. I know I told you, but I think, so on one of the episodes, there was a boy, a young man who had hiccups. And he saw it was a side effect of HIV. Yeah, he had hiccups and then it was really fine.

It was nonchalant. It was nothing. It was silly. He was getting married to his fiance. She was there too. Everything was fine. This was an ER episode? Uh-huh.

Oh, okay. And then they just do a scan, just to, it's fine, but we're gonna do a scan. And then there was some thing, like some lung thing or liver, something that meant he had AIDS. Ooh. And Jess has this hiccup issue.

Yes, he does. And so I saw this and I really was like. Did you call him immediately? Well, it was at night and I thought I need to sleep on it because I think this is going to be a hard conversation. But I also think. I've noticed you have hiccups. I'm like, what if I was meant to watch ER to save Jess?

Right, right, right. And so the next day I did call him. I don't normally call him on the phone. Yeah, he was probably scared. Yeah, well, and he should be. Said, hey, you know, it's not a big deal, but I just, I was watching this episode of ER and this happened and it was AIDS.

And then he just like was quiet. And then he said, I get tested. I said, okay, well, just make sure you're continuing to get tested. Right, monitor those hiccups. Anyhow, are you queerbaiting or what? Well, we have talked about that I flirt with men and women. Yeah, you flirt with everyone.

That's right. But I don't think I'm queer baiting. I don't either, but I'm not the recipient, so I can't say. Maybe some people might say that you were. Yeah, stop flirting with me unless you want to seal the deal. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't want to seal the deal,

I just want to flirt. I know, but it's like, maybe you shouldn't, maybe you lost that right when you got married. I don't know, I don't think so. Also, it does make me think of a Sedaris chapter we were listening to. This is now the funnest thing, I think I told you. We now listen to Sedaris at night in bed.

Wow. And he's talking about every doctor he knows has pulled things out of people's rectum, as we've learned from the nurses we've interviewed. Yep. And he says, most people claim it's from falling down on something. Now I'm clumsy and I've fallen a bunch of times

and I've never stood up and had a candle in my ass. In fact, I'd argue that I could probably fall down every flight of stairs in the World Trade Center holding three candles and a baseball bat. And I'm pretty sure at the bottom, I wouldn't have any of those items up my ass. That is very funny. He swerves it so much better. God, he's funny.

Oh, is he funny? He's brilliant. All right, well that's it for Dove. Well, big shout out, love shout out to Dove. Yeah. That was an awesome episode. It really was. I liked it so much.

Me too. I hope everyone listens, and if you listen, pass it on. Pass it along, forward it. Forward it. This would be a fun one to watch on YouTube if you wanna see me cry. Sure. Yeah, that's your kink.

If you're like Monica. Yeah, true. You like a nice cry. All right, love you. Love you. ["The Last Post-Credit"] Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey.