Backlisted - Treacle Walker by Alan Garner

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

This is a Backlisted special, recorded at the Bodleian Library in Oxford to celebrate the publication of Treacle Walker the new novel by Alan Garner (Fourth Estate). The panel discussion features Erica Wagner, writer and critic and editor of First Light, an anthology of pieces about Alan Garner’s work; Dr Melanie Giles, archaeologist and the author of Bog Bodies, the definitive account of the phenomenon which plays a significant role in the book’s story; and Professor Bob Cywinski, physicist, whose conversations with Alan Garner about time, landscape and local legend provided the inspiration for the novel. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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More details at aircanada.com. Hello everyone, it's Andy Miller from Backlisted here and I'm here with my guest John Mitchinson from Backlisted. How are you John? Hi Andy. It's good to see you. And this is a little surprise thing we've got for people. You will have hopefully heard an episode of Batlisted last week, and you'll hear another episode of Batlisted this week.

But we've got a special event recording for you now that took place at the Bodleian Library in Oxford at the end of October 2021 to celebrate the publication of Alan Garner's new novel which is called it's called trickle walker it's his 10th novel and alan is in his 80s 87 and the reason why this isn't uh what i don't know this isn't a canonical episode that listed for two reasons uh one because we did alan garner uh about five years ago we did his book red shift episode 31 and that you can find that episode on our website at batlisted.fm and uh but also because very happy to say this isn't a bat listed because treka walker is a new book and uh we tend to do books from the backlist as the

name of the podcast suggests but so a panel gathered to celebrate alan's work and his new novel and john is there anything else you'd like to say before we we go over to the recording yeah fans of alan garner anybody interested in the craft of fiction, I think we'll probably find it quite illuminating. It was a really good panel. So we go over now, recorded on tape to the Bodleian Library, and join your host, John Mitchinson. Good evening, and welcome to this special edition of Backlisted. We, almost to the day five years ago, started this podcast with Andy Miller and myself to celebrate, to give new life to old books. We've never done a podcast on a new book before, but I'm guessing if ever there was a new book that could be located outside time, that is both new and ancient,

it's a new novel by Alan Garner. And Treacle Walker, published today by Forth Estate, is the subject of the discussion that we're going to have. I've got three amazingly well-qualified guests to join us today. We're breaking the format slightly. My partner in crime, Andy, is cheering virtually from the sidelines. So I'm in control of the ship this evening. I will introduce you to our guests.

Melanie Giles, who is a senior lecturer in archaeology at the University of Manchester, also the author of this book, Bog Bodies, which is fast becoming the definitive book on the subject. And bog bodies play an important role in the novel. Then there is Erica Wagner. For 17 years, literary editor of The Times, writer, critic. She's written books on, among other things, Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes, Washington Roebling, the architect of Brooklyn Bridge. But she's also the editor of this book, First Light,

a collection of writings in celebration of Alan Garner's work, which was published by Unbound, my company. Just saying that off the top so people know. Five years ago and is in paperback for the first time today. So it's a sort of dual celebration. And then finally, Bob Sawinski, who is a physicist, emeritus professor at Huddersfield University. And it is out of conversations between Bob and Alan that the subject about landscape, about time, about particle physics, many of which we'll cover some of those, I think, in the discussion, that the story of Treacle Walker emerged. think in the discussion uh that the the the story of treacle walker emerged and i am john mitchinson the publisher of unbound the crowdfunding uh uh publisher uh and i had the pleasure uh in a former job at harville press of for a period of time being alan's publisher and it is it i'm hugely honoured that Alan and Griselda, who are not here but are present, they are watching, to be asked to host this tonight.

So thank you. But I thought we might kick off. Shall we kick off with the question that we always ask on Backlisted? I'll start with you, Melanie, which is when you first became aware of Alan and Alan's work? ask on backlisted I'll start with you Melanie which is how when you first became aware of Alan and Alan's work well I had a wonderful history teacher at high school a rural comprehensive in Dorset called Maggie Damrel and I was lucky enough to be taught both English and pre-history by her in my first year and she recommended as I was already in love with archaeology that I should read Alan's books so I headed to the library and I found his children's

books first and I've been reading him ever since I suppose hand in hand with learning about the past which finally ended up at Manchester and had the great privilege of beginning to work with him on some archaeological projects, things he'd found in and around his home, and wonderful conversations that flowed from there. I mean, it is astonishing that the house he's been in for what must be 60 years now, and he and Griselda between them have preserved every single shard of pottery, everything that they found, and it is in itself a kind of an extraordinary site. And I should say that the Blackton Trust, that is the trust that manages the site for education purposes, is kind of the founder of this particular feast this evening. So great. Erica. I didn't read Alan Garner's work growing

up. I grew up in the United States, in New York, and I think for whatever reason, books that are read by children seem to travel less well, even still now, I think. So it was only when I was at the Times, I was the literary editor of the Times for a long time, and I came across a Flamingo classic edition of the Stone Book Quartet by an author called Alan Garner, of whom I had never heard. And I thought, who is this classic author of whom I've never heard? I opened the book and was swept away and wanted to meet him and interview him and was told by a mutual friend, a wonderful storyteller called Ben Haggerty, who many in this room will know that he was quite a tricky character. And that he really didn't like journalists. So I should be introduced to him. And I was.

And that was 20 years ago and more now. And I became a devotee and ended up, as you say, editing this wonderful companion, First Light. The only thing I'll say about it that seems to me that sort of expresses the miraculous nature of Alan's work is when I organized the book, I couldn't think of how to organize it. And it's just organized alphabetically. The contributors are in alphabetical order. And yet somehow this is perfect. It's that sort of Garnerian kind of hidden. Well, I'm sure we'll come on to that. Bob? Yeah.

Well, it's actually a little bit embarrassing. A close friend and historian, Richard Morris, introduced Sue and I to archaeologists, and one of them called Alan invited Sue and I around to his house for dinner, and he and Griselda showed us around this beautiful house. And Sue noticed as we were walking around, there were lots of owls. And so we got in the car to drive back to Huddersfield from Blackdon. And Sue said, I know Alan was an archaeologist,

but I didn't know that he was an ornithologist as well. Because he told her that he'd written this book about owls. And then we sort of put two and two together and realized that our Alan Garner was the Alan Garner. And he wasn't an ornithologist at all. In fact, he knows very little about birds. in fact he knows very little about birds and I think from that time on we were good friends because we just got on well together

and then from then I obviously had heard about Alan's books and we started reading them and have never stopped since Yeah he's always very interesting about he forms friendships he doesn't tend to form friendships with other writers, but he, put a particle physicist or an archaeologist or a historian,

he will be, yeah, it's very interesting. Should we have the first clip? Can we hear the first clip? We've got some clips this evening, I should just say, from two sources. One is from the book itself, some readings from the book, by Robert Powell, the actor, who was at Manchester Grammar School with Alan.

And indeed, Manchester Grammar School, the book is dedicated to MGS. And also some clips of Alan speaking to Liz, his daughter, who's here this evening. Shall we have the first clip of a bit from the novel? Cripes! Joe let go of the post. He flung himself against the stench, the sour, into the coat, onto the vial beneath. And the man opened his arms to let him in, but did not hold it. Joe roared. He yelled. He retched. Then he pushed himself away and crawled to the opposite sill and sat,

his wrists on his knees, shaking. His head drooped. It was a hurl of thrumbo of winter, said the man, a lump of hummock of night, nothing more. Joe could not speak. But summer is nearly come. Joe lifted his head. Treacle. Treacle. Walker. Treacle Walker I have in this land. What sort of a name is that? I heal. Heal. Make better. All things save jealousy, All things save jealousy, which none can. He opened his bag and took out a bone. It was a shin, narrow, old, hollow, yellow, crazed with black lines, polished, and holes cut in and a slit at one end.

What's that? said Joe. I made it from a man that sang. Can I have a see? Treacle Walker passed the bone to Joe. I made it from a man that sank. Can I have a see? Treacle Walker passed the bone to Joe. He held it and felt it shake. What's it for? Treacle Walker took back the bone, put his mouth to the slit, his fingers on the holes, closed his eyes, and played. The chimney filled with tune. It was a tune with wings, The chimney filled with tune. It was a tune with wings, trampling things, tightened strings, boggarts and bogles and brags on their feet. The man in the oak, sickness and fever, that set in long-lasting sleep the whole great world with the sweetness of sound the bone did play. Joe sat and did not speak. The chimney was silent. It is the way for him to sing now, said Treacle Walker.

Can I ever go? Treacle Walker passed the bone across the fire basket. What must I do? Hold and breathe. Joe put the bone to his lips. Like this, he blew. The notes came pure. The call of a cuckoo. Across the valley, a cuckoo answered. Did you hear that? Cuckoo.

Erica, let me throw this to you. Can you give us a sort of a prece of the book? I mean, tell us what we've just... We know there's a boy and we know there's a man. What else do we need to know? You don't want to know too much, I don't think, if you haven't read it. There's a boy. There's a boy.

There's a man. There's a correspondence between worlds. What I feel about Alan's work is that he shows us that the connection between this world and the other world is right in front of us. If we choose to look, if we choose to step into it. And the two worlds are like a palimpsest existing on top of one another. And it's the story of a boy discovering how he can exist inside time and outside of time. And how the objects that are all around him connect him to magic. That's what I would say about this book. I have to say that's a pretty brilliant summary.

If that doesn't make you want to read the book, I think nothing will. I'm interested in the objects, Manali, that sort of string through the book. I mean, we'll come on to the Bob bodies a bit later on. But right from the beginning, there are objects. There's the bone of a sheep. And Treacle Walker has a bag. I've got to ask Bob about the name Treacle Walker in a minute. But all of these objects, as you could see,

that Alan was fingering various, the dobber, which is a marble, these are real objects. As an archaeologist, I mean, is that something that sort of you respond to in the book? Absolutely. And that flute you've just heard about really exists. It dates to the Bronze Age and it is made of human bone. This is a piece of research that was done by colleagues of ours recently and it was found in a burial. And archaeologists have spent a

long time working out how to read time through the layers that build up like a cake and we go back through those layers through time but that's not how time comes at us time comes at us it erupts out of those layers and objects come to us and touch us from different times and so what I love about the objects in this book is that that's what they're doing. They come out of all sorts of different times, the child's time, time long past, who knows, time in the future. And they are the points of connection that create these moments of encounter where time is loosened and you feel its presence with you so the flute the marble the donkey stone which for people who don't know what it is it's a byproduct of the cement

industry that kept housewives busy to polish their doorstep and show that they were good industrious women who looked after the threshold now in alan's hands this becomes something completely other because of course his house is redolent with these objects that are hidden under the the threshold the hearth and in the chimney that are about keeping your house safe from things that should not enter and the care you show to the house is part of how you keep things out or let things in and show your care for a place so so the materials the objects are about the things that one must do to care for the places that one lives in and we are just that momentary inhabitants of them there are other people who have come before and will come after

people who have come before and will come after. And I became aware of something that I'd intuited, and that was that there is a similarity between particle physics, that is quantum theory and mechanics, and folklore, fantasy, and works of the imagination. And I built this model in my mind that the observational writers, Charles Dickens and all the rest, they were working, if you like, in a Newtonian universe. And the other people, such as William Golding, were working in the quantum universe where time doesn't matter. So, Bob, quantum fiction. Quantum fiction.

Maybe you should give a little bit of background as to how these conversations like these that you had with Alan where Treacle Walker emerged yes well Treacle Walker actually was a story that my grandmother used to tell she lived in a little village outside Huddersfield and apparently the local tramp used to walk through the village and she would say you better be good because Treacle Walker will get you if you're not. And for a long time, she thought that Treacle Walker, my mother thought that Treacle Walker was an imaginary character until in the mid-80s, she met a similarly old lady who mentioned Treacle Walker. And it turned out that she actually knew Treacle Walker.

So this imaginary character was really an inhabitant of Huddersfield and St. Barons. And that prompted me to go and search on the web to see if I could find anything about this Treacle. I found very little, apart from the fact he was a tramp. He claimed that he could cure anything except jealousy. he claimed that he could cure anything except jealousy. And that's probably where he got the name Treacle, because his name, his real name was Walter Helliwell, and he came from Holywell Green, or the Holywell Green.

And the Holywell, as everybody knows, is a treacle well. So he was treacle for that, and he was a walker because he he was a tramp so it actually turned out that treacle was a real person and I told Alan about treacle and I think that immediately grabbed his imagination and when he went home after visiting us during that visit he sent me an email straight away saying, I'm pregnant. And this is the result. It is. But to go on with the quantum side, I think Alan was fascinated with the duality of quantum physics, the wave-particle duality, but also the malleability of time.

I think that both of those themes run through this this book pretty much from beginning to end and in various parts I can I can see how our conversations led to various things that happened throughout the book yeah it's I mean it he is that that story of I, there's so many stories. Alan latches on to a story, and it's almost like an archaeological process. It goes deep in, and it takes him a long time before it sort of rises to the surface again. I think it might be good to listen to another little bit of the book. Joe shut his good eye and looked with the other. He could not see the man.

He changed over. The man was there. He changed again. He changed back. And changed again. It was always the same. His good eye saw the man. His weak eye saw only the bob With both eyes open he saw

But not as clearly in the blur Are we going to be at Peepo till night? Said the man Or shall we be getting you out of here And meet me dreamings? What's up with my eyes? You have the glamoury Said the man

In just the one And that's no bad thing If you have the knowing She'll be the governor While you learn the man, in just the one, and that's no bad thing if you have the knowing. She'll be the governor while you learn the hang of it, and when you've got that you'll be fine as Philly Lou. But you need the both of them. What sees is seen. The man stood. Water and leaves dripped from him. Shut the glamoury and turn about, and when you've looked, open her again. Shut the glamoury and turn about, and when you've looked, open her again. Joe twisted his head round and closed his good eye.

He saw the green of Big Meadow between the trees and above it the house. The copse was small and the bank near. He opened the good eye. The bog was everywhere. And that's the way to do it, said the man. Joe kept his good eyes shut and worked himself upright. He left the alder stool and trod across to the bank and over into Big Meadow. He opened his eye and looked back. The man was standing behind him. Use the two limbs together, he said, till we get you home. And after, don't wear your clout.

For though at the first you'll be in a frustication with it all, you'll be needing the both. I've told you, what sees is seen. Come with us, said Joe. I don't feel right. I'll not, said the man. I must have me bog and me trees, else I'll be drying out, and that won't do. have me bargain me cheese, else I'll be drying out, and that won't do. Obviously, in a note to me before the podcast, Bob,

you talked about this eye patch that Joseph Coppock, the boy, has, as Schrodinger's patch. Explain. Well, Alan and I talked about wave particle duality and the idea if you take a subatomic particle like an electron or a neutron, sometimes it appears to behave as a wave, sometimes it appears to behave as a particle. But the really curious thing is if you do an experiment

to show that it's a particle, you find that it's a particle. If you do an experiment to show that it's a particle, you find that it's a particle. If you do an experiment to show that it's a wave, it's a wave, you always get the result that you expect. So to a certain extent, Joe's eyes are doing this. Depending on the eye that he's using, he sees what is there to be seen, but in two different dualities. I it's also fascinating i just happen to be reading about the that the way that that you treat an eye a lazy eye is exactly that that you you put yes you put the patch on your good eye so that your brain can restore the kind of neural it's sort of it's uh plasticity so it really is so as usual with with Alan, there's a real thing that's allowing him to.

I mean, this kind of involvement of science, Erica, is something that runs through all his work, really. Yes, it does. But as Bob was just saying, it also runs. You don't have to know the science, I would say. And so when I was reading this book and thinking about the story of the fairy ointment that lets you see the fairy world, if you have this ointment in your eye, I was also thinking about the way that wave, particle or not, we can choose to see things in different ways. You know, we hear stories the way that we want to hear them, or we see people the way that we want to see them. So, you know,

we can do this sort of to ourselves just through narrative as well and stories science speaks to us with stories and alan as long as i have known him yes has always been fascinated by by every kind of science particularly archaeology and of course as people will know um thanks to Alan, I spent a lot of time at Trouble Bank at the great telescope that opened, began working the same year, 1957, that Alan came to Blackton and bought that remarkable house. So he's always been looking into deep time in many different ways. looking into deep time in many different ways. Melanie, can you say something a little more? I know some of the people in the room will have been to Blackton,

but a little bit more about Blackton as a site, because the house in particular is a character in this novel, it seems to me. It's an extraordinary juxtaposition of the contemporary, the railway line, running past it. And deep time, there is cremation pyre, possibly a barrow underneath the house. So the last thing I did before lockdown was sorting through some of that cremation, finding all sorts of interesting fragments of pottery and wood debris. um and then what was probably a medieval hall to which alan then brought a neglected um timber framed building the medicine house and erected it and in the taking it apart found all sorts of

things and they're back in the house where they should be um so it it brings all these different times together and from the garden griselda has found things that I like to think things come to them both because they know they'll be cared for. They're in the right hands. And so, you know, with Jodrell Bank on the horizon, you just sense future and ancient deep time and present are commingling in one place. There is no other place like it. It does feel like a bit of an axis. There is no other place like it. It does feel like a bit of an axis, Bundy.

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$49 annual fee applies. See Home Club for details. I mean, it is an extraordinary way to write, isn't it? He often says that, you know, he looks and he finds, you know, stories find him. And each one of the books in its own way will have some, something will have happened. In the case of Drinker Walker, it's a story. In Strandloper, it was discovering these extraordinary, the story of William Buckley. And then the fact that the church had these extraordinary Aboriginal stained glass in this.

And out of that, it's almost, he then kind of, very few writers that I know research in quite the same way that Alan does. I don't think anyone researches the way that he does. But I remember the very first time I interviewed him many, many years ago, I think following up or maybe even before we met by email, asking him something about invention. And he responded, as I perceived it, sternly, saying, I don't invent, I find. And I think this feeling, this understanding of what it means to find something, and as Melanie was saying, literally finding things all the time, these things that I agree with you, objects know they will be safe if they come to the garden.

But that gives his work. but that gives his work it is magical but it is so powerfully rooted in the actual in reality that you just know it's not made up and that is the wonder and sometimes the terror of it too. And the terror is in this book. I think so too. Let's have a bit of terror. Thin Amaran lay by an older stool. He smiled. I dreamed Wurligig would come, he said. I dreamed he would.

He looked older. His limbs were slack. His belly hollowed and swollen, and his bones showed through the skin. But I was away from the wet too long, so I was. Course I've come, said Joe. Did you ever think I'd not? I see what Wurigig has fetched. You must sleep, said Joe. You've got to. I'm weary, weary of dreaming, Whirligig. Whirligig shall stay, and together we shall laugh the sky. We can't. Can't never did. I telled to the start. Has that carnaptious cop-tank snatched whirligig in his corbolg then? If you won't dream, said Joe, I can't be. Ever. At all. If you dream, I can. Happen will meet, happen will not, but will remember. Cut me throat and hope to die.

will remember, cut me throat and hope to die, will not forget. That's the skewer, said Tinamaran. The skewer, so it is, the stab. Yet Whirligig has wisdom on him. He has the wisdom. He has it. Whirligig. Well, well. What larks. But will he be given a body a drink, for I'm thirsty dry. Joe took the jar and filled it from a clean pool between the roots of the alder and held it to Thin Amron's lips. Thin Amron drank, gulping. He lay back on the bog. What lax, eh, Wurligig?

What lax? Trust me deep and stake me quick. Joe cradled Thin Amaran and dragged him onto open bog, and both hands flat on his chest, with all his weight he pressed him down. Thin Amaran sank into the water. His face showed. Then leaves and mud ran over and covered it. Joe could feel him as he pressed. Thin Amron moved,

settled, and was still. Joe wept, and weeping pressed him further until Thin Amron was at the end of Joe's reach. Then he took one of the older branches, felt for Thin Amron's neck, and bent the branch across and drove the sharp ends into the bog on either side of the older branches felt for thin Amron's neck and bent the branch across and drove the sharp ends into the bog on either side of the flesh. He took another and felt for an arm and pinned it at the elbow. He sobbed and swore with every thrust. Then he took a branch for the other arm, then another and another for the two legs. His face was slouched and his tears mingled with leaves and water.

He knelt in the mire. Thin Amron, slate you on. Melanie, who is Thin Amron? We sort of know, don't we? Sort of. I guess he's a composite bog body. So in physical terms, he most resembles Tolland Man. It was a Danish bog body. The Irish accent that Robert Powell has given him brings to mind Old Cloggan Man, Cloney Cavern Man, the amazing Irish Iron Age bog bodies that date to around about 300 BC. But more locally, of course, Alan's own bog man would be Lindo Man. And in fact, there are

three bog bodies at least from Lindomoss. And I have in my care, my responsibility, another bog head from Worsley Moss. So Alan is surrounded by this phenomenon that we see in boggy places across northwestern europe and it's something that's particularly in the iron age we see a number of violent deaths and submersions and pinning down so that what i love about this piece of the book is that it has a ritual trajectory to it and the language captures the ritual way in which we think those deaths unfolded. We know that people seem to have been prepared for that moment of death, whether willingly or not. And we still don't know really whether they were sacrifices, sacrifices that were taken from what seemed to be fairly, you know, well-lived parts of the

community. These are not lower echelons of society by and large. Some of them may have been enemies given up as trophy offerings. But there seems to be a spate of these offerings in the Iron Age and the early Roman period that we think are about a very different sacrificial logic and what I love about the book is that there's a lot of giving and taking and giving back and it captures that rhythm of when things are taken things must be given back and in this passage we see Wurligig the child realize that time itself has a circular nature. And unless this sacrifice happens, time will not come round again. And we can see the echoes here with concepts of time from Strandloper,

where the dreaming is how the future unfolds. If it doesn't happen, the past doesn't happen, the future won't happen. But for the future to happen, the past must happen again. And he captures that and he captures it. Alan has never shied away from violence or darkness. He writes that in even in the children's books. It is there for you. I think that's what attracted me in this 11 year old. I was growing up in a rural community. I could see it around me. That was part of the cycle of life is dark and light. And you don't shy away from that. You write that in here. But there's also grief. This is a necessary sacrifice, but

it's one that causes us to grieve. So it's a different logic to our own, but Alan doesn't shy away from it. And I think that's something that archaeologists will connect with. They will understand from their deposits that they are seeing those often violent offerings, the giving up of things, and in the Iron Age they're often things that have had an old life, they're warm, they're redolent with life, that's probably part of their vitality, their power, and they are the things to give back to the bog, their power, and they are the things to give back to the bog, including sometimes people.

Amazing. Bob, can you unpack Whirlygig? Because it's a really interesting idea, isn't it, that we first meet Whirlygig and it's a whirlpool. Yeah, a whirlpool in the bog, yeah. I'm sorry, I don't think I can actually. I was wondering, is this the idea that we're all, I mean, it's the idea that what is it? What is a whirlpool?

It's in motion. It's particles in motion. It's like a human being is just a kind of a collection of particles whirling in time. And it's a young man with life and vitality in him. The juxtaposition of that with the dying bog man is really a contrast in the

two things. But of course the whirligig is a key symbol you see in Celtic art. It is the three-fold spiral which is and insular Celtic art, indigenous Celtic art made in Britain loves this motif because it is in motion. And it's never quite symmetrical.

It's always got a little bit of mobility to it. So I can't help but think that Alan's been looking at his Iron Age shields, perhaps, and seeing that that is a motif which is about, there is no beginning and no end. It's in perpetual motion. And the moment you start, you finish again. So I love that name for him. Can we have clip five just on this interesting theme

of how Alan goes about his work? I find it hard to talk about how I write because there is no way to write except the way that works for the individual. And for me, I've learned over the years through harsh experience that I just have to let it grow without interference. And what happens is I keep getting blobs of ideas and gradually they converge like flecks of cocoa on the top of a cup

and start to form a pattern. verge like flecks of cocoa on the top of a cup and start to form a pattern. And with Treacle Walker, I remember something, another idea I'd had that had gone nowhere, and that was the wandering Jew motif, the flying Dutchman, the outsider, the restless soul, the one that cannot die. And I never found an anchor for that. But Treacle Walker started to grow in my mind. And then it happened one day, I just saw him in the yard outside the house here, the medicine house, because the day before I'd been in the dentist's surgery waiting to go in.

And outside the window, I'd heard something I'd not heard since childhood. I heard a rag bon man go by, calling ragbone, ragbone, bones for eggs, any regs, pots for eggs. And I got to the window, but I couldn't see him. And that's how things happen. I cannot rationalize this, because the very next day, I heard him outside the house and I thought yes it's a boy and it's in this house and he hears it and I need to know what happens next. And again, this is personal to me and to other people who work like this.

I don't make things up. I just sit back and let the story be told to me as if I'm listening to a storyteller and write it down. It is not mystical. It is mysterious, but I think it is the unconscious mind that just takes over. in context of his other work, because it's a really interesting, I think none of us could have predicted that Alan would write Treacle Walker. Couldn't he just predict anything about Alan?

You know, that's a dangerous game. I suppose what I would say is that when people ask me about Alan Garner's work, often they ask me, if they haven't read it, where they should start. Or someone who said to them, you know, they read Alan Garner, but someone hasn't, where should they start? And there are lots of different ways you could answer that.

But this is actually, although Alan is now 87, I think, you could start here. You know, this is a remarkable book that can be read just for itself, a story, as Alan just said, where you want to know what happens next to this boy who hears this voice and has these different kinds of encounters, including a remarkable encounter with himself. But it carries with it so many of the themes of Alan's work. And, you know, thinking about this boy, I thought about the boy that Alan described himself as in Where Shall We Run To, his remarkable memoir. The dreaming in Strandloper, the sense of traveling that's in Thursbitch. the sense of travelling that's in Thursbitch.

Alan's work, where does it sit in the context of Alan's work? Everything he does is so different, and yet everything is also of a piece of the whole and having a remarkable the one book the one the one book you know it is it is one book about life about time about about solitude you know he he was very alone as talked about being very alone as a sick little boy. And I found that really moving in this book, a real kind of recollection, because it's not this boy is in a house. It's not a spoiler to say there's no parents.

There's no, the only adults are the bog body and treacle walker and yet there is consolation and the sort of consolation of the spirit and of the self is something that runs throughout his work. It's interesting he said in an interview that the boy wasn't him, but it's what he might have been if he hadn't been through Manchester Grammar and Education. And that if he'd never left higher education, he'd have ended up like Trico Walker. Trico Walker in the book is full of kind of learning. So it's a kind of extraordinary rites of passage novel. That's one of the more remarkable rites of passage novels, I think.

It's a book about the giving and taking of permission, too, of what's allowed and what is not. I mean, Bob, your long conversations over the years with Alan about almost seems to me that between the two of you, you've more or less solved the two cultures debate. You know, that fiction is a kind of scientific inquiry. Yes, I think that one of the phrases that came up quite a lot when we were talking was melting snow. And this idea that, you know, see peace, snow, two cultures,

was really an observation of what was happening rather than the statement of what is. And although science and artistry seem to be at the opposite ends of the spectrum, the methodologies are actually very, very similar. What a scientist does is creates a model of the universe. They poke it and they prod it. And if it's consistent with the way the universe works, they say, that's OK, we they poke it and they prod it. And if it's consistent with the way the universe works, they say, that's okay, we've done it, we understand it. And in the same way, I think when Alan writes a book, he creates the characters, he creates the environment, that's his experiment. And if it's self-consistent, if it tells the self-consistent story,

then he says, that's a success. And that is actually the scientific method. And so, you you know the two ends of the spectrum are actually i've almost gone round and joined at the other side it's it's the same process yeah it's really interesting um one thing in the book which uh you you it was again i think you know you say hooking up various bits of alan's that the The fact that he reads a real comic, as you can see, knockout comic from the 1940s, and particularly the Stone Age kit, The Ancient Brit, pursued by Wizzy the Wizard and the Brit Bashers. But, I mean, this is the other thing about Alan.

He has absolutely got his feet rooted in popular culture. Can we just have that clip number six? Because this came out of the interview. It was a bit of a revelation for me, I have to say. One of the most important parts of my adult imagination was formed by a series that ran in, I think, 1979 to 1981, Sapphire and Steel, which dealt entirely with this quantum idea of the world.

And it also drew heavily on folklore. And I suddenly saw Treacle Walker congeal these vague ideas in the last shot of the last episode where Sapphire and Steele are imprisoned in a roadside cafe. They're trapped for all eternity. And the last shot is a pullout to see them looking out of the window in the cosmos and behind the stars. And I thought, that's Treatle Walker. I mean, that's brilliant. Well done, Liz, for winkling that out.

Because I don't think I'd have... It makes me want to go back and watch Sapphire and Steel. I think I was missing a whole... The idea of Sapphire and Steel as sort of quantum entertainment. But, I mean, that is the thing, that the books are... There is a humour as well in Alan's writing, always. And I think there's some very good repartee in the novel, particularly between Draco Walker and the boy.

He takes a long time to write his books. It's a very short book. But if ever there was a writer who, you know, I'm sorry this is such a short book, such a long book, I didn't have time to write a short one. I mean, it takes, you feel that there is a process at work here of abrading and every single word is doing its job. And I just love the idea.

He's very, you know, he always starts, he knows where he's going to start and he knows where he's going to end. And in fact, the paragraphs at the beginning and the end are almost identical. Do you want to, I mean, mean spoiler alert but what do you think is happening at the end anyone want to have a stab do we think it's is it a beginning is it an ending is it on to the next it's a whirligig it's a whirligig it's it's how it's how it starts again it's how things come to be and i i love that sense that you mentioned folklore and magic and, and what are those things? They are, it's wisdom and it's effective practice. It's what you do to understand the world when you don't, you know, it is science. So those things are woven in here.

So skillfully and, and some of us will see those threads and pick up on some of them and some we'll see different ones. But I think that, you know, that's the joy of finishing it quite quickly and then coming back and reading it again. You can see then the pattern emerging. It does. And the whole sense in which at the end he even links back to,

there's a bit of Romany that links back to his story, The Bread Horse. Do you feel there's a sort of a valedictory quality to the book, Erica? I wouldn't like to think that. He's getting faster. You know, I think he's just going to keep going. I didn't, I didn't have a valid... Bob says he's got another book on the go. No, see? I didn't have a valedictory sense. I suppose what I think about the ending, and again this loops back to many of his books,

I think that Alan understands that chronological, sequential time, as it's often expressed in, I guess, what you would call traditional narrative, you know, what he was calling in that clip, the kind of Newtonian narrative of Dickens, say, is itself a conceit. And I think most of us actually don't experience time chronologically. Memories come, we return to our childhoods, we think forward into the future. Everyone sitting in this audience is having kind of different moments of time come at them.

And Alan expresses that in his work. So we all have these whirly gigs and that to me is what's happening at the end of the book no spoilers that's that's that's so interesting because i mean we now know that memory this idea that we retrieve memories we don't remember we create memory each memory is a is a is being recreated by a synapse. There's a lovely little, just two lines here. He asks Treeple Walker, am I dead? And then he says, I will not say that you are dead. Rather, in this world, you have changed your life

and have got into another place, which is exactly how you, as the reader, feel at the end of this book and don't we all want to do that yeah we're getting towards the end are there are there any final thoughts that you want to leave with the very final word of course is going to go to alan but are there any final thoughts that you want to leave the audience with tonight you asked me whether i knew why the white horse yes that was and i don't know yes why is uh for oxfordshire residents that's the the white horse at offington which is

potentially an iron age well well the thermoluminescence dating would suggest it's actually late bronze age right but that's curious because the design exactly mimics the way in which you would find a horse depicted on some Iron Age coinage, which is why we thought it might be Iron Age. It's been pointed out by one of our colleagues that actually it might it might fit with that late Bronze Age motif because I think it's on midsummer's sunrise. It looks as if the horse is drawing the sun over the horizon of the hill. And that's something that we know in the late Bronze Age is a motif. We have the tron tron chariot with the horse drawing the sun as if the horse itself will pull the sun into its next cycle of life. Read the description of the donkey stone carefully, and you'll find that the donkey, sorry, Rosie, is not actually a donkey

it is the white horse of buffington but maybe the white horse buffington is a donkey after all but but i think you know the motif on a stone becomes enchanted with this motif that iron age people have been copying and reiterating so the the horse drawing the sun the cosmos turning um making sure things come again and i and for me the you know treka walker's um rag and bone cart is probably a chariot and and and as he sets off is he he's he's turning the wheels of time again and that so there are i don't know i'd like to ask alan but but that's what I see in it. Amazing. I would just like to remind people, because we haven't said much, of the beauty of Alan's language.

This spare, clean, ferocious language that seems like it always existed. And when I was reading it on the train for the third time coming here, no one does verbs like Alan Garth. So when you read it the first time, but then really think about how he makes action. It's just, and not just the action of people, the action of things, the action of the air, of darkness, of water. It's just, and not just the action of people, the action of things, the action of the air, of darkness, of water. It's spectacular. Yeah, it's wonderful. Bob? I think the thing that comes across most strongly to me is Alan's almost obsession with time. And it's a theme that occurs in most of his books. And the superposition of time the idea of simultaneity and in fact here treacle and joe have a discussion about now what is now and of

course in the physical universe there is no such thing as now depending where you are on the universe time flows at a different rate and some events which can be first and second to one observer can be second and first to another observer and in a way this folds into i think redshift first which is there all the time in his books yeah it's so it's time is of the essence time is of the essence and uh time is ignorance is the quote from Carlo Rovelli at the beginning of the book. That's all we've got time for, unfortunately. We can't, although we know time is, of course, an illusion. It's an illusion we have to go along with.

I just wanted to thank Melanie and Erica and Bob. I wanted to thank Fourth Estate, particularly Patrick Hartgen, who's been amazing at helping this happen. I want to thank Liz Garner, who has been tireless behind the scenes, Blackton Trust, for making it happen. And I want to thank Alan and Griselda for the opportunity to do this. I mean, it's been amazing insights into this extraordinary novel and an extraordinary writer.

Some writers need to know exactly where they're going at every stage and they plot it out on a grid. So they know exactly where they are in the story. And I don't think I'd have the patience or the interest to continue if I knew what was going to happen. For me, it's always stop because you don't know what's going to happen next. Don't try and write it. It'll come.

It does. It always does. Well, that was great. Listen, Alan Garner admitting that he makes it up as he goes along in the best way in the best way was that fun oh it's a huge fun i mean the it's just incredible really to think that you could have an archaeologist a physicist as well as a literary critic uh discussing a work of fiction i mean there are

very few writers i think whose work engages other disciplines in the way that garner's fiction does and it's although it's a very short book it's so as i hope you'll have got from the discussion it's it's so artfully crafted and so complex in the themes that it's dealing with. Yeah, it was a great honour actually to be involved in it. A lovely thing to do. And lots of lovely backlisted listeners came to the gig, didn't they as well? They did. They did.

We had Philip Pullman on the front row. No pressure there with Jude, his wife. Neil Phillip, one of the leading Alan Garner scholars. And Nick Swalbrick, who is a backlisted fan and an Oxford fan. It was a really, really good turnout. As well as Patrick Hargadon from Fourth estate and carolina sutton his literary agent and um yeah and was alan was alan um present rather amusingly alan alan didn't want to be present as a sort of presence but he was watching it um and um i got a marvellous i'll just um i'll read

it out to you i got a marvellous email from him sending it out to all the panel at the end. I feel that Mr. Bodley will have rarely had such a diversity of disciplines and articulate wisdom and talents together in the room before. So thank you, one and all. And I think I understand Treacle Walker better now. Lots of love from one that you what of, i.e. Mr. Alan Gurn. Oh, that's great. That's very good.

So job done. Thanks for sharing that with us. We hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back, back, back, back in a week's time where we'll be taking a lighthearted tour of Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground. So join us for that in a week's time and see you then. Thank you. Bye. © BF-WATCH TV 2021