Behind the Bastards - Part One: How Woody Guthrie Turned Folk Music into a Weapon

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Robert and Margaret sit down for their annual anti-bastard episode about one of America's greatest heroes, folk musician Woody Guthrie. (2 Part Series)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Call zone media. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast by Judge Robert Evans, the honorable Judge Robert Evans presiding over the Court of Bastards. And you know, I announced last week that I am now officially a legal United States municipal judge. And I think a lot of people thought that was a bit, they thought I was joking. And I just wanna say folks, I would never joke about that because as soon as I was sworn in,

I was handed a case to rule on. And I've been thinking nonstop about it for the last two weeks. And I know the Supreme Court's got a lot of important cases coming up, obviously, but they all pale in comparison to this question, which is which of the Lestats in the different interviews with a vampire is more fuckable?

And I have my ruling here. Is the jury ready to hear it, our jury today, including Margaret Kiljoy and Sophie Lichterman. Are you guys ready to hear my ruling on this one? I am, although I've only seen the evidence produced about the 90s interview with a vampire. Oh, you gotta watch the new TV show. It's hot as hell. And that's who I go with is the TV list. Robert, have you ever heard of jury nullification? Uh-huh. You can't nullify me on list. Robert, have you ever heard of jury nullification?

You can't nullify me on this. Oh, OK. Because he's just so hot. Look at him. Look at him, Sophie. Have you not looked at him? You're asking me to look at him now. Are you asking me to look up what a man looks like

and say if they are hot or not? Because I refuse on principle. I wouldn't call him just a man because he's supernaturally good looking. Anyway.looking anyway the old one is just Gare Yes Yeah, whereas the new one looks like I don't know kind of like little bit of Viking little bit of

French sex pot he's good. He's good. It's a good TV show everybody, watch the new interview with a vampire, that's my ruling. Margaret, how are you feeling? I'm feeling like I like vampires. Oh, you're gonna like that show then. I struggle with vampire stuff though because I'm incredibly squeamish, but I love the romance of vampires and the like sorrow of living forever and all of that So I sometimes start watching vampire movies and then they start eating people and I'm like this is too much for me And I'm like, well, what did I think was gonna happen? It's okay. They're occasionally sad about eating people in the TV show

I have a question for the two of you. Okay, would you become vampires have given the choice? Absolutely. Yeah, why not? Sophie could I could still have my dog? Yeah, I can have your dog. You just can't hang out with your dog in the day. Yeah, just not in the day. Less time with my dog not into it. Well, it's the same amount of time it's just inverted. I just like the idea of eating people. Yeah, but like I hang out with her at night and during the day. So whatever gives me the most amount of hours with Anderson. Yeah. Can you make a vampire out of Anderson? Would she live forever? Yeah.

Oh, Anderson, we're vampires. We're fucking vampires. Can you make dogs into vampires in standard vampire mythology? In Margaret's world. Okay. Well, I mean, vampires can turn into dogs, So I feel like there's like, there's clearly a blurring of the line between human and dog and vampire world. So we might actually just become peers with our dogs, in which case it's an even easier

choice. The hardest part for me is the drinking of the blood. But you know what? I'd be willing to accept it. There's a lot of people whose blood I drink. There's a lot of people drinking my blood. I might as well have some some of theirs. Most of the people I've asked well have some some of theirs.

Most of the people I've asked this have said no. So I'm impressed with you too. Yeah, I'm down. I'm ready to do the vampire shit. Again, interview with a vampire makes it seem incredible. I really loved Vampire Diaries. It's my one like really bad CW show that I'm like, that was such a good experience for me the 17 times I watched it I get I get to be best friends with the guy who played Bell Rios in the the foundation TV show. It's a great idea I'm picking vampire. Okay again based entirely off this TV show This is gonna be a really long cold of it back right one time

I went to a grocery store and the Vampire Diaries actor brothers, they're not real brothers in real life, were there trying to sell their bourbon and their dog licked my face. And it was a really good experience. I'm just saying it was a really good experience for me. And I immediately had to record with Robert and Jamie afterwards. And they're like, what's wrong with you? Why do you keep, why do you, why are you smiling so big? And I was like, I was like,

vampire diary's brother's dog licked my face. And they're like, all right. I was like, you don't understand. Here's the thing. Yeah. Vampires consume the blood of human beings in order to stay alive. And so do essentially most of the people

who run our country, which is why people have been up in arms and very interested in some stuff that's been happening in the news recently. Sure. But this brings me to the subject of our annual non-bastards episode. A guy who became very aware of the fact that there were bloodsuckers murdering all of his friends

and loved ones and decided, well, fuck, I don't know what else to do but sing some songs about it. This week, we're talking about Woody Guthrie. Yeah. Yeah, Margaret, what do you know about Woody? Well, I get him mixed up with Utah Phillips in my head, even though I shouldn't. And I believe Woody is the

This Machine Kills Fascist guitar, not Utah, right? He sure is, yes. And is he the list of stuff for the new year or is that Utah? I think that's Utah. This land is your land. Yeah, where they always cut out the good versus about getting rid of private property. Yeah, and to be fair, he cut out the good versus. We're going to talk about that in these episodes.

We're going to talk a lot of Woody because Woody is a complicated figure. This is going to be one of our famous. Let's talk about the morality and ethics of a guy who lived and was born into a world that most of the people alive have trouble comprehending

episode. Yay. Every history episode ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good time to be talking about Woody because fascism, as it was when he. I think this is a good time to be talking about Woody, because fascism, as it was when he was a young man, fascism seems to be ascendant around the world.

There are outlawed gunmen carrying out attacks on capitalist institutions that symbolize the poverty and suffering that have made a lot of people miserable. And yeah, you know, a lot of the people who have listened to this episode were probably forced out of their homes for some period of time this year due to one kind of environmentally influenced disaster or another, a not insignificant chunk of the audience, given the hurricanes and fires, yada, yada, yada. And that's the way things were in Woody's day too. So let's, let's learn a little bit about America's greatest folk singer or at least the patron saint of all American folk singers Woody Guthrie

And we're back so if you're not familiar as we stated he's the author of this land is your land He's the author of all you fascists Are Bound to Lose and a whole bunch of other socialist and anti-fascist protest ballads. He also wrote a shitload of other well-known American classics and a bunch of unknown folks and I should say an unknown number of other folk songs. When I say unknown, I mean it. There is no comprehensive accounting of how many songs Woody wrote and like published, but credible estimates are somewhere around a thousand or more.

That's the way to do it. So this is a very prolific songwriter, right? And you know, a lot of the songs that he would have written rather than being many were published in different song books and whatnot, and are still sung today. But a lot of them only existed briefly in dingy little stages from New Jersey to the Redwood Coast. So he's my kind of artist.

Yeah, I like that kind of guy. Yeah, it's hard not to. That said, when we talk about his family background, there's some rough, gotta be some rough moments here and some rough moments in his own life. This is not a guy who was unproblematic in any comprehensive way What a man who had power in interpersonal relationships wasn't perfect. Yeah

We'll talk about how much power he had. He's a little more complicated than that even Okay. Yeah, his grandfather was born Jeremiah Purcell Guthrie in Bell County, South Texas, and went by Jerry P. Restless, as was the family condition, he'd moved his family north to what was then known as Indian Territory in 1897. Today we call most of this Oklahoma.

And at the time it is where the federal government had pushed a number of tribes in order to pretend Hey, we're not trying to dispossess you entirely We you got to keep moving but keep moving kid But eventually like you'll land in this this great area where you know, you guys will be safe forever That's Oklahoma. That's what becomes Oklahoma. It's just the Indian Territory in this period. It's not a state So during this period the government offered land grants in this territory up to 160 acres to anyone with quote unquote Indian blood.

And Jerry's second wife, Woody's dad, Charlie's stepmom, was one eighth Creek. Now obviously everything around this is messed up and part of policies that were at best ignorant and at worst genocidal. And we're not commenting on the validity of how the government saw indigeneity at this period of time. Just saying this is how they handled it, right? So Charlie grew up, and that's again, Woody's dad,

grew up in Proto Oklahoma, which reads best as Proto-Clo-Homa. Yeah, I was about to stress that. But I don't actually think, I don't know how well it scans audibly. Anyway, on his dad's ranch, he was ambitious. He studied business through correspondence courses. He also learned pinmanship through correspondence

and took a correspondence course on boxing, which makes a lot less sense to me, but okay. Punch, punch better. Can't wait for that third letter. Many people who are listening to this are basically doing that with YouTube right now and not actually practicing. So. Right, right.

Yeah, he would have been a YouTube guy in a different era. He would have been like watching videos on how to punch better. Yeah. He was good enough at the money stuff, like he does actually learn pretty well how to manage money and handle business. And pretty soon as a, as and pretty soon, as a teenager, he's running the family farm. Eventually, things are going well enough that Jerry and Charlie sell what they have, and Jerry moves back down to Texas to start another ranch near the border, whereas Charlie moves

to a small town called Castle in 1902. He gets a job in a dry goods store and he meets Nora Tanner, the daughter of a school teacher. In the 2006 biography Ramblin' Man by Ed Cray, here's how Nora is described. If Kansas-born Nora was not the prettiest girl, she was among the most spunky. Inevitably, and here's where things take a turn, people judged 14-year-old Nora as something of a tomboy because of her spirited attitude. How else would she assert herself in a house with three brothers and sisters and three half-brothers? Again, 2006 is probably a little too late to be writing about a 14-year-old girl who gets picked up by a man in his 20s that way.

Yeah, not the prettiest. That's what we need to know. I don't love that. I don't love that. Now we are talking about Woody Guthrie's dad here. I just want to remind you of that. This is not the subject of our episode and gross arrangements like this. And is this his mom? Is Nora the mom?

Yes, Nora is his mom. And this is gross, but this is also not a wildly uncommon arrangement. And Nora and Charlie, they meet when she's 14 They don't get together immediately He starts hanging around her and her family and gets to know them for two years before marrying her when she is 16 And he is like 25. Oh Great, so many years still

Uncomfortably awful not great still a. So respectful to just hang out and- Two years. Two years to just lurk over a child. Yeah, just hanging out, making it really clear that you're into this child. Yeah, but not till they're in a, I'm not defending this. Let's be clear, Charlie Guthrie sucks ass.

This is not the worst thing Charlie Guthrie's going to be involved in. Oh good. So he's just, he's, I'm glad we have a bastard today. Oh yeah. No, there's a bastard in this episode and it is, it is Charlie. It's a, it's Woody Guthrie's dad,

definitely on the bastard spectrum. So he starts reading law and he gets involved in local democratic party politics. Oklahoma, the state is about to become a thing. And while the, thing and while it's unformed in this period, there's an opportunity for ambitious young men to make names for themselves and Charlie decides he wants to do just that. He runs for a district court position and he wins election in 1907 because all of the votes from local black men were

thrown out under false allegations of ballot stuffing. Yeah. So Charlie's really just knocking him out of the votes from local black men were thrown out under false allegations of ballot stuffing. Yeah. So Charlie's really just knocking him out of the park. The Democratic Party is not the same. No. This is before the great inversion of these two parties. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's just, yeah, comprehensively not a nice guy. After winning, he takes his burgeoning family a few miles away to Okema, a town which was having an oil boom and was an exciting place to be in 1907, something no one has said about Okema since. For a few years, life was grand and Charlie gets rich. He acquired more than 30 properties, he joined a Masonic Lodge, he purchased the first automobile in town in 1909, and he became a fiery anti-socialist polemicist giving ranting speeches about Eugene V. Debs, the pro-union socialist rappelrouser and presidential candidate.

So I bet you're saying, Margaret, wow, what a great dude. I'm saying like, ha ha, this guy had a socialist kid. He sure did. And we're going to get to why. But first, let's talk about a crime against humanity. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, everybody loves a good crime against humanity.

That's why I come on, bastards. I thought that's what you were doing to call the ad breaks, which you could do right now if you so choose. No, no, no, no. It's okay. Let's talk about a crime against humanity first. That'll lead into the ad break. Oh, I thought you were talking about advertisements, but okay.

No, no, no, no, no. Talking about horrible things. Great. In late May of 1911, a black mother and her son, Laura and LD Nelson, were taken into custody after being accused of shooting and killing Ofiski County Sheriff's Deputy, George Loney. The deputy had been on their family land

going after a cow he believed had been stolen, and a struggle ensued. Laura apparently grabbed for the deputy's gun first, it's a little unclear exactly what happened, but her husband wound up pleading guilty to larceny and so he was away while Laura and LD were taken to a county jail. As was often the case in situations like this, outrage spread around the white families of the area. A crowd formed. Woody

Guthrie would later allege that his father was one of the men who joined that crowd. They burst into the county jail on the night of May 24th, raped Laura repeatedly, and then hung her and her 14-year-old son until they were dead. As was usually the case, local photographers took pictures of the lynching site afterwards to sell his postcards. The photos of Laura's body hanging dead are the only known surviving pictures of a black female lynching victim. So there's a good chance people have seen pictures from the lynching that Woody Guthrie's dad did or helped do. Obviously it wasn't just him. Cool. Horrible.

I told you he sucked! Yeah, yeah, no, I am. Yeah. Charlie Guthrie, not a nice man. Did he get to die painfully? Horrible. I told you he sucked. Yeah, yeah, no. Charlie Guthrie, not a nice man. Did he get to die painfully? He has a lot of pain in his life. Don't worry. Excellent.

I'm not going to say it makes, you know, it equals out though. So Woody was open about the fact that his father had taken part in this lynching and later accused him of having donned clan robes, right? So Woody's like, yeah, my dad was a clansman. And he would later in life write several songs about the lynching. One of them was based on a misconception that Laura's two children were lynched.

Her baby was probably found alive nearby. The song was titled, but a lot of Woody's songs about historical events are not literally about what happened, right? Like there's, you know, this is folk history, right? Anyway, one of the songs that he wrote about this event was titled, Don't Kill My Baby and My Son. And I haven't found Woody singing this song,

but I wanna read some of the lyrics. And this is kind of him sort of singing about this thing that his dad did. As I walked down that old dark town, in the town where I was born, I heard the saddest lonesome moan I ever heard before. My hair it trembled at the roots, cold chills run down my spine. As I drew near that jailhouse, I heard this deathly cry. Oh, don't kill my baby and son.

Oh, don't kill my baby and son. You can stretch my neck out on that old river bridge, but don't kill my baby and son. Damn it's yeah uh bad I mean it yeah I don't know what to say about that I'm grateful for my dad who the only time I've ever seen a clansman in robes was as a kid and I was driving with my dad and my dad saw these like and we like stopped and they were flyering right and my dad just like rolled up the windows locked the doors and then fumed and it realized and then later he was like those people have guns that's why they're doing this and I realized later it was because he was justifying why

he hadn't gotten out of the car to fight four men. Yeah. You know, to himself. Because all he wanted to do was get out of the car and fight them. Anyway, I just, I'm glad that I had the inverse dad. I don't know. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma and learned that one of my friend's dads was

in the Klan, which is how I learned the Klan was a thing, which was when my mom found out when I stopped hanging out with that kid. Which is also like shout out to your mom about that right? Cuz you grew up in a more right-wing family, right? Oh, yeah, she was like absolutely not about this. Fuck these people. There you go. There is a line. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, that was a hard line for my mom. Yes In 1912 the year after the lynching, Woody Guthrie was born. But the introduction to Rambling Man,

written by Pulitzer Prize winner Studs Terkel, does a better job of setting up his birth than I can. So here's Studs. In 1912, the Titanic sank. In 1912, Woodrow Wilson was elected president. In 1912, Woodrow Wilson Guthrie was born. Fate sings its own kind of poetry. The day was July 14th, Bastille Day in Paris, France,

Woody's Day in Okima, Oklahoma. That's good. Yeah, that's a good intro. Also, it explains my big question, which is what does Woody stand for? And now I know. Yeah, Woodrow Wilson Guthrie. Yep.

People were a lot more optimistic about Woodrow Wilson during this period of time, Margaret. There was a lot of hope for Woodrow Wilson in 1912 that's going to prove to be somewhat, shall we say mistaken, errantly taken, right? But you know who you should have faith in? Is it our advertisers? It's our advertisers.

I don't really know about that, but yeah. Who would never bring America into World War I after promising not to. If our advertisers say they're not going to send US troops to World War I, they're not gonna send US troops to World War I. You can take that as a promise. I wish I believed you, but time machines just around the corner.

You probably shouldn't. They might. They might. They might. And we're back. We are learning, unfortunately, that HelloFresh has committed to send 150,000 US Marines into France. Robert, it's like, what are the least evil sponsors that we have on our show?

Sophie, they're necessary to stop the Kaisersmen, you know, who are largely sponsored by MeUndies, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know. Podcast World War I is gonna be a trip, everybody. Yeah, but if you wanna gamble on it, go ahead. But if you wanna gamble on it, yeah. I'm not mistaken. I don't know. Podcast World War I is gonna be a trip everybody. But if you wanna gamble on it, go ahead. But if you wanna gamble on it, yeah.

So Woody was the third of five kids and his first memories were of comfort and like a degree of wealth, if not outright opulence. He later wrote, "'Our house was full of the smells "'of big leather law books "'and the poems of pomp and high dignity that he, his father, memorized and performed over us. Charlie was into music as well as racial murder, and he and Nora would sing hymns, old spirituals,

and songs about saving the lost and homeless. Woody later recalled, the color of the songs was the red man, the black man, and the white folks. And he's saying there that it was like we learned songs that were like of the Songs was the red man, the black man and the white folks. And he's saying there that it was like, we learned songs that were like of the common people of this country. I don't know that I trust Charlie to give him a great example of like all of that,

but that's what he later called. And what he's also going to, there's a period of time where he's really whitewashing his background and his father, right? He's going to make claims that like he was mentored by a young black musician, you know, during kind of in and around this period when he's a little kid, those don't seem to have been true.

He later admitted they were false. I think they were kind of part of this period where he's trying to invent a better backstory for himself. Well, and there's also this like long standing way to claim legitimacy. Right. Of claiming blackness. Right, yes, especially within like American folk tradition, right?

Yeah. Yeah. While his early years would have been comfortable, things began to change quickly for the worse. His father paid to construct a nice family home, which burnt down when Woody was a toddler and damaged the family finances. In 1919, another fire hit the home they lived in and his sister Clara burned to death. Nora had gotten increasingly unstable as she aged, and it's likely that we would have, I mean, we definitely have a diet, we learn what she's got, right? And we'll be talking about that some in part two because it becomes relevant for Woody.

But at the time they were just like, oh, she's crazy. She's got bad nerves. You know, she's losing it. Right. Like that's, that's the way they talk about this at the time. Yeah. After Clara burned to death, Woody later said, my mother's nerves gave way like an overloaded bridge.

An essay on Woody by the library of Congress notes, she even had occasional violent episodes and may have set Charlie on fire in 1927, a situation that resulted in a long and painful convalescence for him and a commitment to the state mental hospital in Normand for her. We can't know exactly what happened here. The best account we have is that when he like wakes up to the sound of kerosene being splashed on his chest and then is on fire and he manages to put it out although he's injured and the first thing he sees when he puts it out is Nora standing over him watching quietly.

That's intense. Now Woody never was able to really admit that this was what happened, right? That his mom lit his dad on fire and he certainly didn't admit like, well maybe his dad needed to get lit on fire, right? Oh yeah, no, no, no crime was committed. It's fine.

Yeah, I think that's more or less where I land here, but obviously this breaks up the family, right? Yeah, fair enough. And Woody's never able to really kind of come clean about precisely what happened. And also, you know, he's young enough that maybe he doesn't fully know, right? Maybe this is kind of a mystery to him as well.

Yeah. Um, cause his dad probably doesn't want to admit it, right? It's framed as an accident within the family. Um, the most woody would ever say of his mom's mental state during this period is that her mind went quote, way over yonder in a minor key, which is, you know, wait, did he write that song way over yonder in a minor key? I think so. Yeah.

That's one of my favorite songs. And every time I pass a minor key, I'm like, I need to get a picture with me here, but I never do it. Yep, Woody Guthrie. Yep. I like that song. Covered by Billy Bragg, like a lot of Guthrie songs.

I mostly know the Billy Bragg version. Yeah, yeah, I think most do. At this point, most of us do, but that's like kind of how Woody's music has been brought down to us too, is by guys like Billy. By guys like Billy, by guys like Bob Dylan too.

Totally. So, things get worse very rapidly for the Guthrie family after this point. Charlie's business interests folded and his land collapsed in value. He had trouble finding good work after recovering from his injury and the Guthrie family starts to fall through the bottom of their society. Charlie was forced to leave Oklahoma in search of work with his two youngest children. Thus, Woody and his older brother, Roy,

had to stay in their hometown alone to support themselves. They are 15 or 16 both when they're kind of left like, hey, figure it out, right? Now, Woody is largely unsupervised and also traumatized during this point in time. He works a series of odd jobs, polishing spittoons and scavenging for scrap metal. So again, this is a kid who was born

into an emerging wealthy class, but he never really gets to live that way, right? Like the bottom falls, he has early memories of when the family had money, but very quickly, like at 15 or 16, he is polishing spittoons and living on the streets. He's homeless for a significant period of time. He discovers the wonders of both tobacco and hard liquor.

For a period, he would hustle for money, drunk, playing his harmonica. One remarkable performance earned him $7, which must've been a memory that stuck with the young man, that like, oh, I actually have the ability to like do okay based on like playing and performing for people. I bet that's like a hundred bucks at least right now. I don't know.

Good money for a 16 year old kid. Yeah. Uh, he starts writing the rails and traveling hobo style down to the Gulf and back, uh, people begin referring to him as a tramp. Ed Cray, one of his biographers, writes, Woody scrounged home-cooked meals wherever he could. His friend Colonel Martin invited him home often enough. Guthrie lived with the Martin family for three months.

He moved in with the Price family, quarreled, and moved out. For a week, he slept in an unheated packing case, converted into a hillside gang clubhouse, until two members of his gang, brothers Casper and Floyd Moore, pleaded with their parents to let Woody live with them. Tom and Nora agreed, and Woody moved in with a wardrobe of two shirts and a pair of mended overalls. So he's living on the edge here. He's like, again, he's a tramp, right? But he's pretty liked, you know, a lot of families in town, you know, they like Woody, their kids like Woody, and they'll take him in for a period of time.

And he's also- I think this was like a kind of common way that the like- My grandfather was a hobo fairly shortly after this in kind of the same region. And you know, and it wasn't a full- So was mine. Yeah, you're like, it wasn't a full full Oh, I totally just live outside and ride the rails It was like sometimes I ride the rails and sometimes someone gives me a ride. You know like yeah Sometimes I'm living in an unheated like fucking packing crate and sometimes I've got you know a room or I get to crash on the

Equivalent of a couch yeah exactly yeah, and he's he's you know he doesn't have great hygiene He's famous for his shabby looks, but he's also in demand for his musical skills. One of his hosts recalled a night when he brought home $60 in coins from dancing and playing for the American Legion. Norah's husband suggested he buy some new underwear with the money, and Woody's response was, no need to, I wouldn't wear it.

Instead, he bought candy for their kids. He's a crust punk. He is a crust punk. Yes, he absolutely is a crust punk and he uses his money to buy candy for his friends who got him a place to crash. Hell yeah. Now one interesting aside is that this particular family

I'm talking about had the last name Moore, which is my mom's maiden name and my family lived in Oklahoma in this period Maybe it should there's good chance. It's just probably is just a coincidence, but I don't know all the branches of kin I had floating around down there That's cool. I like that. Yeah this connection. I will have a more direct family connection to Woody Guthrie later in these episodes Nora Moore said this of young Woody Sometimes he was sad and didn't talk much.

He often sat for long periods as if he were in deep study. Then again, when he was with the gang of boys, he was lively. He seldom laughed. And if he did, it was short and quick, but he was witty and smart. So you've got a thoughtful kid who's definitely traumatized as well. And there's something kind of magnetic about this young man too, right? Like you get that feeling just whenever you read people

who knew him in that period kind of talking about him. You also, okay, like, one he moved in with another Nora, which is, I mean- Yeah, there's a lot of Noras on the, thick on the ground in this period, yes. But also I was putting it through that, so his mom probably set dad on fire and I'm like and whatever yeah his sister tied a horrible fire uh-huh his mom might have killed his sister he has bad luck around fires okay family his whole family does just kind

of flammable his whole yes the Guthrie's are unfortunately quite flammable. OK, there's going to be a really a really unfortunate story involving that in part two as well. All right. In 1928, his father called for him to move to Pampa, Texas, near Amarillo, where some other members of the family, including his uncle uncle Jeff who's quite a character lived. Before leaving, Woody visited his mother in the state hospital one last time and she didn't recognize him until the very end of the visit which is deeply traumatic to this kid. Traveling to East Texas was not a simple thing for a teenaged boy in 1928. Woody had to busk and work odd jobs to make his way

down. Mostly he sang and played harmonica for workers on their lunch break at the railroad and hotel lobbies, and most often outside of whorehouses. He learned as he went, picking up tips from every musician he came across. He later wrote, I followed the religious street singers up and down the sidewalk and learnt of all the songs they sung. I never did learn how to make tips off religious folks because the best ones are always broke. But some of the best songs I ever heard and some of the best feelings I ever had was when I catch some girl's eye beating on a skin drum tambourine singing, hi, hallelujah. I love the way he talked and wrote.

I know, it's poetic as hell. Yeah. Texas provided Woody with both relief and an outlet when his Uncle Jeff taught him how to play the guitar. Jeff was an award-winning fiddle player, and once Woody felt like he had a good bass line, he went looking for other amateur musicians, and they formed a band called the Corncob Trio. He fell in love with the sister of one of his bandmates, Mary Jennings, and the two were eventually married. Now Uncle Jeff was one of those sorts of men you'd best describe as a real character.

Ed Kray described him as a country fiddler, great dreamer in a family of dreamers, fingerprint man, parlor musician, and sometime faith healer. When Woody met him, Uncle Jeff was a cop, but his ambition was to leave that job for a career in music. In 1930, he lost it anyway when a guy he wasn't friends with got elected sheriff. Jeff made himself... so... Quite a fella. Police officer, Faith Healer. Yeah. Fingerprint man, whatever the fuck that means. Jeff made himself the manager of Woody's amateur musical outfit after he gets fired as a man, whatever the fuck that means. Jeff made himself the manager

of Woody's amateur musical outfit after he gets fired as a cop. So he's like, well, being a cop didn't work out. I'm gonna try to turn these teenage boys into a money ticket. And he starts booking them gigs. He hatches a scheme, cause Jeff's a schemer,

to get him a slot performing with a traveling show put on by a wealthy rancher. Because he was trying to entertain on a budget, music was just one of the things they were hired to do. Woody was expected to do stand-up comedy and to act as a magician as well. And the only thing I need to tell you to make a point of how cringy this would have been is that his routine involved the use of, quote, flesh-colored grease paint. Uh... uh-huh. involve the use of, quote, flesh colored grease paint. Uh huh. Now, sometimes he does seem to be dressing as a different kind of white guy. He's got a freckle pencil and I think he's like dressing as a redhead or something like that sometimes, but he is doing blackface.

He is doing a lot of blackface. This ad, there are menstrual show and medicine show, which are very racist, right? These are shows that where the comedy hinges a lot on the way white people think that black people talk based on again, racist jokes, right? That is a big part of the comedy he is doing at this stage in his life. Oh, Woody, uh-huh.

And this is very, like this is a very normal, this is going to be in some, to some extent, a normal kind of comedy. You know, it gets every couple of years, it gets a little bit like whitewashed, just a little bit more if you'll forgive the term. But like, if you watch the old Christmas movie, White Christmas, like there is a non-blackface minstrel show

that they do in that because, and it's them talking about like, oh, the music that we grew up with, right? The comedy that we grew up with, right? The comedy that we grew up with, right? This shit stays a lot longer than I think a lot of people are necessarily aware. But- And want to admit to themselves, yeah.

Yeah, and want to admit to themselves. Or want to admit to their grandkids. Yeah, and again, at this stage in his life, Woody is as racist as you would expect for a boy raised by a Klansman who lynched people, right? Like he is a very racist little kid. Not out of step with white kids in the area, but not better in any way, certainly.

That said, most of his act did involve fairly safe comedy. Here's one representative example. I stopped with a family that had two twin boys. One was named Pete and the other Repeat. And at another place, they had two twin girls. One they named Pete and the other Repeat. And at another place, they had two twin girls. One they called Kate and the other Duplicate. Anyway, it's like bits like that, right? I love Repeat.

I've heard the Pete and Repeat. I love that. And they don't do well, right? This is, he's not like a successful, he's not a breakthrough comedy star, right? He's also not what you'd call a breakthrough comedy star, right? He's also not what you'd call political at this point, right? He's not talking about a lot of left-wing stuff. Life is too lean in general for him to have much time for reading tracts, but he is aware

of poverty because it's the very air he breathed. And he does start tailoring his jokes to an audience that's in the same position socioeconomically. Here's one related in the book Ramblin' Man. They have raised the price of meat until it's getting so a working man can't eat meat. The nearest thing he can come to eating meat is oxtail soup and beef tongue. That's the only way he can make both ends meat. Get it? Because it's like from the tail and tongue. And the back of the animal. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Not a bad little bit.

So the traveling show is a catastrophic failure though. 1931 and 32 are bad years to try and convince people to pay for amateur entertainment in rural Texas. Yeah. Woody did not need to search hard for an explanation as to why his life was difficult. He had only to step out and look at the road each morning, where an endless stream of climate and economic refugees had begun tramping vaguely west, looking for any hope of survival.

He wrote, "'Most everyone that come had just recently lost everything they had in the world. The others were fixin' to lose it. This caused a lot of fights and feuds to break out between husband and wife, and caused sweethearts to haul off and quit. The crops was all dried up, and the banks was taken the place.

It looked like there wasn't no hope down here on Earth." So you know, this is the start of the Great Depression. This is the start of the Dust Bowl. And for a while, as he's watching other people's lives fall apart and the evidence of that, you know, and his life isn't, you know, going to stay together that much longer than this, but for a while he does have some hope courtesy of his uncle Jeff, who after losing his job as a cop had also sought work as a faith healer to survive. And we're going to talk about faith healing. And weirdly enough,

we're going to talk about a book that relates kind of directly to, uh, our immediate future precedent here. But first, you know what doesn't relate to the president is these ads. I hope not. Jesus Christ. I hope fucking not. There's a guy when we talk about Donald Trump, who was a big influence on him, Norman Vincent Peel, who was a big influence on him, Norman Vincent Peel, who was a big advocate of something called the power of positive thinking, right?

And this relates to a lot of modern sort of grift culture, right? You know, the secret, this idea that if you just start thinking hard enough about the things that you want, right? If you just start making affirmations, right? That that will, that will influence reality, right? That like, and so as a result, if you're not getting what you want, if you're not rich, if you're not successful,

it's a failure of yourself to believe in yourself, right? You're the only one you have to blame for not succeeding. This is the underpinning of the prosperity gospel. This is the underpinning of MLM culture, right? And Woody Guthrie at the start of the Great Depression through his uncle Jeff gets hooked on the very first sort of vector for this kind of nonsense, right?

In American culture. And it's through a series of pamphlets, The Secret of the Ages, published by an American self-help author named Robert Collier, right? What a good name. Yes, yes. So this is- The secret of the ages is to write things called the secret of the ages and then sell

it to gullible people. That's the secret of the ages. And that's exactly what Collier does, right? It comes in seven parts. It's a mail order thing. And it's all this kind of shit that's going to get wrapped up in the power of positive thinking, prosperity gospel, MLM nonsense, and kind of modern America.

And like subscription-based services, they were ahead of the curve. Yes, they really are. He would have been listening to this podcast, right? Collier would have had a fucking podcast if things had been a little bit further along, right, technology-wise by this point. Now the gist of the message in The Secret of the Ages is the power of positive thinking. If you just fix your mind,

you can bring yourself abundance and success. And if you aren't enjoying success, well, brother, that's on you. And I'm gonna read a quote from, oh, this isn't from the pamphlet that Jeff would have ordered, but it's from a book that he later makes based on the pamphlet. "'All cause is in mind, and mind is everywhere.

All the knowledge there is, all the wisdom there is, all the power there is, is all about you, no matter where you may be. Your mind is part of it. You have access to it. If you fail to avail yourself of it, you have no one to blame but yourself. For as the drop of water in the ocean shares all the properties of the rest of the ocean water, so you share in that all power, all wisdom of mind. If you have been sick and ailing, if poverty and hardship have been your lot, don't blame

it on fate. Blame yourself. Yours is the earth and everything that's in it. But you must take it. The power is there, but you must use it. It is round about you like the air you breathe. You don't expect others to do your breathing for you. Neither can you expect them to use your mind for you. Universal intelligence is not only the mind

of the creator of the universe, but it is also the mind of man, your intelligence, your mind. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. So start today by knowing that you can do anything you wish to do, have anything you wish to have, be anything you wish to be, the rest will follow. I love it. It's so politically confused. Are you a drop in the water or are you completely an individual and everything is your fault if you fail?

I love it. Yeah, it's definitely leaning more towards the other side of that. And Woody early, and it's worth noting like he falls hard for this as a kid, right? Yeah, yeah, whatever. This is, I think, going to be part of why he's a little bit less vulnerable to this as an adult

is because he kind of gets inoculated by this bullshit with his uncle, you know? Yeah. Now, what's remarkable to me about this book, which enraptures Woody and his uncle as their dreams die around them, is how similar it reads to a lot of modern self-help claptrap.

It's also, and this is one of the weirdest things that I was not expecting to see as I go through this book, it's focused on immortality in a way that you could take passages out of this and put these into like 21st century Silicon Valley, like fucking Peter Thiel shit, and it wouldn't sound out of place. And I want to read you a quote from that

because this really does sound like some shit Peter Thiel would have funded. Why is it that the animals live five to seven times their maturity when man only lives two to three times his? Why? Because man hastens to crepitude and decay by holding the thought of old age always before him. Dr. Alexis Carroll, Nobel Prize winner

and member of the Rockefeller Institute has demonstrated that living cells taken from a body properly protected and fed can be kept alive indefinitely. Not only that, but they grow. In 1912, he took some tissue from the heart of an embryo chick and placed it in a culture medium. It lived and grew for some 30 years until they tired of tending it and threw it out.

Dr. Carroll showed a moving picture of these living cells before the American Institute of Electrical Engineers. They grew so fast, they doubled in size every 24 hours and had to be trimmed daily. The cells of your being can be made to live indefinitely when placed outside your body. Single celled animals never die a natural death. They live on and on until something kills them.

Now scientists are beginning to wonder if multicellular animals like man really need to die. We've come full circle to vampires. We have. We've come back to vampires baby. That's right, that's right. Everyone just needs a blood boy. Yeah, we all do want a blood boy, Margaret,

but for different reasons, you know, for different reasons. I want a blood boy for purely humanitarian reasons. Oh, really? What's that? Yeah. Want to go into that further? I like blood, and I'm a human. Wow.

Groundbreaking. Yeah. So I do. What are the reasons I love reading shit like this, and incidentally folks, one of the best reasons to read history, even the history of Hocum like this, is because when you're going through, like if you spend part of your day job looking at the fucking network state Silicon Valley nonsense coming out right now about how like, oh, you know, Brian Johnson's found a way to reduce his fucking biological age back down to 18, right?

All this shit that people who like to portray themselves as like geniuses based on the fact that they have money and are good at finding desperate people to like market themselves to, it's the same shit that the same kind of people have been peddling forever, right? Honestly, since the days of fucking ancient Egypt, right? But like, there, a lot of people who think these folks

are intelligent, who think that they're special, who think that there's something new with our new Silicon Valley overlords, right? They're just too ignorant to know that these people have been peddling the same bullshit to hook rubes for a century, right? It almost sounds identical. Cool stuff.

Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. I love it. So Charlie's new wife, Betty Jean, a nurse fell in love with the book as well with Collier's book and she starts faith healing patients that medical science had failed to save. Everyone agreed she was a great faith healer and more importantly, she made money with her magnetic massages and it's one of those like everyone talks about what a great faith healer she is and how even the Richmond come to her for healing. And then it's like, well,

what's her method? Magnetic massages. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I think I might know what's going on here. Two of the oldest professions are now interacting with each other again. Yeah. I think I might have an idea as to why this works. Cure and male hysteria. Uh-huh. Woody is enthralled enough to start faith healing as well. Like Betty Jean, he often worked for free, but in short order, he was making more money doing this than he had at the whiskey store where he'd been working before. So he decides to go into business himself as a faith healer with a sign that read faith healing mind reading no charge

Right and obviously sometimes he gets a charge, but he's willing to work for free a lot He's not like a he really does I think believe for a while that he's got some Ability to heal people an ability to read their mind. I don't think he's a he's a grifter here I think he's a kid who's kind of Gets really excited by this shit that has enraptured all of the adults in his life too. And he's like, well, maybe I'm,

I've always felt like I was kind of special. My ability to draw attention, to get people to pay attention to me. Maybe it's because I've got these magical powers, right? He's more of a busker than a grifter anyway. He's a busker, right. And that's the other part of this. When I used to busk all the time for a little while,

we would just go and set up like a Lucy's advice stand. And we would just like set up, we'd build a little thing out of cardboard boxes and then be like, advice $1. And people would just come up and ask us for advice. It was really fun. Yeah, and Woody, that's what I get that vibe from Woody too. He is later in life embarrassed about this period

and he'll start to claim that like, oh, I only did like faith healing by accident. I never wanted to get into the business. Quote, hundreds of people got my name mixed up with Papa's new wife and come to my house by mistake. Finally, I hung out a sign telling him to come on in and talk it over. I decided that faith was the main thing.

But that's not really true. This is Woody massaging his history again. Yeah, magnetically. Ed Cray found strong evidence to the contrary. In 1935, Woody, who had started a local newspaper called News Exposé, wrote an article announcing that his pseudonym, Alonzo M. Zilch, had become a psychological reader. Guthrie advised readers to take your troubles to Zilch.

He's an expert worrier. The eyes of lots of people are on this man for good or bad. So he's writing under his real name about a psychological reader with a fake name he's created, who is also him. Oh, I love this. I love, I identify way harder with Woody Guthrie than I expected, even though he's been doing a lot of stuff

I don't approve of. He's a petty con man and a punk kid, right? You know? Not in a way where I think he's like a predator, but. In my first book I've interviewed all these people, one of them is me under another name and I just didn't even tell my publisher. I fucking love you, Magpie.

It's another good Bastards Pods character who has a lot of similarities to Margaret Killjoy as a young person. That makes sense. He was reasonably popular as a faith healer, which probably owes more to his charisma than psychic powers. Still, by the time the mid-30s turned to the late-30s, times were bad enough that Woody had started to wonder if maybe his future might lay elsewhere. The Dust Bowl had kicked off in the early 1930s.

Due to nearly a decade of drought, it lasted until 1939, right? This is like 31 to 39, something like that is the Dust Bowl. Like it's a fucking a long time that everything is just covered in dust, right? And it's the result of this of the fact that this huge number of people had moved these vast plains in the American interior and started farming. And they had over farmed. They had plowed too much of the native grass,

which had like led to this situation where when they have this drought and things dry out, there's nothing really keeping the top soil together. And then you get these huge wind storms, which cause these epic apocalyptic waves of dust, like ocean tides, to sweep over small towns and blacken the sky. Now economic collapse was happening kind of independently, but also related to this, right? These things feed into each other, even though they are not like entirely, you know, independent of each other. Farmers lose their farms, people lose their homes, factories close, and despair and desperation

becomes the normal state of affairs for everyone in Woody's life. Woody has a front seat for all of it, writing, They're on the Texas plains, right in the dead center of the dust bowl, with the oil boom over and the wheat blowed out and the hardworking people just stumbling about, bothered with mortgages, debts, bills, sickness, worries of every blowin' kind, I seen there was plenty to make up songs about." Like hundreds of thousands of Americans trapped in the dust bowl, Woody decided his last best option was to head west. He became one of 400,000 Americans to make his way to California.

The horror of the situation and his ultimate response to it contributed to one of his early songs for which we have an actual recording. And I'm going to play the whole thing, both because at this point it's clearly in the public domain, but also Woody had an understanding of copyright law and refused to copyright things for the vast majority of his musical career. And in fact, here, I want to read you, have you ever read the copyright notice that Woody Guthrie put in his early song books, MacBuy?

No. This song is copyrighted in US under seal of copyright number 154085 for a period of 28 years. And anybody caught singing it without our permission will be mighty good friends, Aaron, cause we don't give a darn. Publish it, write it, sing it, swing to it, yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do.

What I used to write as the copyright notice in my early zines was, for those who believe in copyright, this scene is copyright, everyone else is free. Yeah, Woody would have liked that. So anyway, I'm gonna end this by playing you our first full Woody Guthrie song, and we'll hear a couple over the course of these episodes. But here's So Long, It's Been Good to Know Ya. So long, it's been good to know you, So long, it's been good to know you,

So long, it's been good to know you, This dusty old dust is blowing me home, I've got to be rolling along. I'll sing this song, but I'll sing it again Of the place that I lived on the West Texas plains In the city of Pampa, the county of Gray Here's what all of the people there say Well it's so long, it's been good to know you So long, it's been good to know you So long, it's been good to know you, So long it's been good to know you, This dusty old dust is a-, and these people all congregated in their little houses. And in the room in the house that I was in there was 12 or 15 people and while we was there telling each other so long it's been good to know

you dusty old dust is blowing me home and I ain't got long to stay I've got to be drifting along well here's what happened happened. The telephone rang and it jumped off the wall that was the preacher paying his call. He said look at the shape that the world is in I've got a cut price on salvation and it's been so long, been good to know you, so long, it's been good to know you, so long, it's been good to know you, this dusty old dust is driving me home and I've got to be drifting along. drift in the lawn. The church houses were jammed and packed.

People were sitting from front to the back. It was so dusty. The preacher couldn't read his text, so he folded his specs and he took up collections and said, so long, it's been good to know you. So long, it's been good to know you. So long, it's been good to know you. This dusty old dust isn't rolling me home Gotta be drifting along

Ah, Woody. It's a good one. I like it. Uh huh. Also, when you see those photos of him, if there were anyone who saw the video of it, my assumptions are that man has been in a lot of fights and he's not particularly good at it but that has never stopped him that's my read yeah no that's a guy who does not back down from

many fights and doesn't win any of them yeah man well Margaret you got anything to plug here? My most recent book is called The Sapling Cage. It came out from Feminist Press in October and it is about a young trans girl who goes off and becomes a witch and helps alongside other people save the world. And I have a podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff, which I totally didn't rip off of from you with the Christmas episodes. Totally not. Not at all. It's like Christmas every day over on Cool People That Did Cool Stuff.

Damn straight. And, oh, if you listen to It Could Happen Here and or Cool People Did Cool Stuff, every Sunday in December 2024, we're dropping podcasts from the future. 30 years from now in the middle of the Dino War. That's what Cool Zone Media, we have tapes from the future and 30 years from now in the middle of the Dino War. That's what Cool Zone Media, we have tapes from the future and we're playing them all and General Lichterman is there and something's going on with Robert but we're not quite sure yet and you can hear about the Dino War every Sunday. Excellent. All right everybody, that's the episode, well part one.

Everybody, that's the episodes. Well, part one. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

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