Betrayal - S2: E7 - Knowing

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

As Jason Lytton’s release date grows closer, Andrea learns more about the psychology of perpetrators. We listen as Ashley and her therapist Jessica Baum consider how Jason’s arrest forced Ashley to confront other painful aspects of her life she had tried to suppress.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail].   To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's CyberTipline at 1-800-THE-LOST  If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children reach out to stopitnow.org  In the UK reach out to stopitnow.org.uk  Where to Find Jessica Baum and her book Anxiously Attached: www.jessicabaumlmhc.com/anxiously-attached See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Alphabet Boys is a podcast that takes you inside undercover investigations. In the second season, we've got an alphabet soup with the DEA, the CIA, and the FBI all mixed up in the same case. So you do personal security all over the world and you have somebody call you and say, can you get grenades and guns for this guy in Colombia? No, no, no. It's a mystery wrapped around an international arm's deal. Alphabet Boys, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Are you hungry for the inside scoop of Women's Soccer? I'm Sam Ues, and I'm Lynn Williams, and we're professional soccer players, best friends, and the hosts of snacks, the only women's soccer podcast hosted by active players that gets into the most recent news, gossip, and fun of the end of the sell, the women's national team and the delightful, delicious world of stacks. It's a weekly show that features great guests from the world of women's soccer, recaps and previews of the biggest matches, and the two of us hanging out with you. Listen to stacks on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Last year, Putin launched his full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Russian oligarchs suddenly started dying, more than a dozen in the space of nine months. Many of their deaths are suspicious with links to the Kremlin. In this new investigative series with me, Jake Hanrahan, we're asking the question, who's killing Russia's billionaires? This is Sad Olegarch. Listen to Sad Olegarch on the IHART radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners. Please take care while listening. When I think about him getting out, you know, I'm anxious. There's a tightness I get in my throat and in my chest. The closer it gets to him getting out, I'm kind of at a point where I'm scared. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Episode 7. Knowing.

We've listened to three different stories of women confronted with the terrible reality that their partner was mixed up in this awful dark underworld of child sexual abuse material. Getting through the arrest, the court system, and sentencing, the whole experience has been emotional to navigate. The other factor that weighs on all three families is what happens once these offenders are released. As we heard in episode 5, Mandy Hale was at work when the FBI called to tell her that her house was being searched and her husband was being arrested as part of an international sting. He was involved with one of the worst child sexual assault material websites in the world. Now, her ex wants to see their daughter, but he has not been forthcoming about the rules

of probation. In episode 6, we met Erin, a woman who felt so unsafe in her home, she fled with her two kids to another state, once discovering her military husband was hoarding a stash of illegal photos of children. At the time I record this episode, Ashley Linton is starting to face the reality of what it means for her soon to be ex-husband Jason to be a returning citizen. Earlier in the series, you heard Jason being sentenced for two counts of voyeurism and one count of sexual exploitation of a minor.

With his time served applied, he will be back in the community soon. Ashley expressed her anxiety to therapist Jessica Bount. You're about to hear a part of one of their sessions. Jessica and Ashley allowed us to record their conversations for the project. Jessica is a psychotherapist and the author of anxiously attached, becoming more secure in life than love.

We're dropping into the middle of their session here. When Ashley is talking about Jason, calling his daughter from jail. I allow him to call her. I have him call my phone so it's on speaker and I can hear it and monitor their conversations. But about a month ago, he told her something and it really, really scared me. He'd said to her, I now know that God sent me here so I can spread the gospel. And I was like, what the fuck? No, he's there because he chose to be a creeper. That's it. What's the fear? She just doesn't get it. I feel like he's manipulating her to think

that like his time there is for him. He'll tell our gods working through me to spread the gospel and stuff and I'm like, no, you're there because you're a pervert. Yeah, so not taking any like ownership or accountability ever. No. In denial of his own sickness. Yeah, and I just think that that denial is dangerous. Yeah, so dangerous. Yeah, I mean it's so valid. In your fear and concern makes sense. And whatever you can do legally but also just education-wise

and awareness wise to say aware and alert is needed to protect your kids. needed to protect her kids. Ashley's fears are justified. When I hear them, I start to go down a major rabbit hole. Will these men go back to reoffending? I'm assuming the system will eventually grant visitation of some kind, even if it's supervised. Will the children be safe? I have done hours of research, reading and interviewing professionals, trying to understand the motivation of these offenders, and what these women are up against, once these men are released. I often think of what Ashley's close friend Emmy said to me. Her husband and Jason were best friends. She was really there for Ashley. Before sentencing, Emmy submitted

a letter to the judge, or she expressed fear for the future. He is a threat, a danger to everyone around him. Each day, he is in the presence of what could be his next victim, a child walking to her from school, a child at a grocery store, or even a gas station. That thought haunts me to my very core every moment of my life now. I have seen the devastation his actions have caused. I pray that justice will protect this young family and allow them some semblance of peace to pick up the

pieces of the Lides Jason has shattered. Today it's Ashley and Mandy and Aaron's family, but we're all living in communities with people looking at CSAM. Do a quick internet search for child pornography and arrest. It's a sobering experience. I'm not an expert. I'm just someone who wants to root out a growing problem. It starts with understanding what drives these offenders, how people access CSAM, and why our government

is struggling to get a handle on it. I started by speaking with some people to help shed light on the psychology of offenders like Jason. Dr. Jonathan Bone has spent years studying and assessing sex offenders for nearly two decades. He has worked for the federal Bureau of Prisons, as well as in County Jail. A metaman is office in Salt Lake City.

I'm a clinical psychologist with expertise in forensic psychology. Dr. Bone has worked with many child sexual exploitation offenders. I asked about the correlation between consuming C-SAM and pedophilia. You could say that somebody who is consuming child pornography and masturbating to that and acting on their sexual urges

and treating that or downloading it, that they could be classified as someone who has pedophilic disorder. When I met with Dr. Bone, he showed me the definition of a pedophilic disorder straight out of the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, the DSM. But the DSM does not speak to consumption of CSAM specifically. Much of the general public assumes that those who watch CSAM are people with pedophilia, but the dialogue around the topic is nuanced,

and it falls under both psychiatric and behavioral. And there appears to be a leading school of thought about the behavior. Though why people consume this material, pornography, and its pervasiveness. Tom Squire is the clinical director for the Lucy Faithful Foundation in the United Kingdom. They are a charity whose sole mission is dedicated to preventing child sexual abuse. Through the foundation, Lucy Faithful runs Stop It Now, a deterrence campaign regarding the viewing of indecent images of children on the internet. Tom is a cognitive behavioral treatment specialist who has also worked with sex offenders for 20 years.

Thousands of the people who contacted us at Stop It Now have reported that their starting point was accessing adult pornography and then from there their online behavior and their sexual behavior escalated and they cross those thresholds and boundaries into abusive behavior involving children. There's also some research about the nature of adult pornography which focused upon the way in which it was described. So rather than its content, the language that was used to describe it on adult science, you know, very common terminology might be for teenagers or might be about kind of incessant pornography or voyeurism and so forth.

What was once considered taboo, incess pornography, step fantasy, school pornography, is now readily available and it's free. The availability of pornography feels like it's kind's turned the dial a little bit within society about where the boundary lies between positive and healthy eroticism and what I think most of us would use harmful and concerning legal adult pornography. But also there's something about that boundary becoming much more porous. And it's that that then means that some people's decision-making and

they're responsible for it. But it feels to them like an easier step to take because of the nature of the adult pornography that they might have been looking at already. And when someone watches a lot of this kind of pornography, Tom says wires can get crossed. School pornography says plus 18, but most of the girls are styled to look like school girls. And with repeated choices like this, interests can start to shift. From my experience facilitating groups with men who've offended in this way, I would expect, perhaps two or three of them to say that they'd always struggled with the sexual interest in children.

And then I would expect most of the rest of the group to say, actually no, for me, my sexual interest always felt pretty normal. I've had kind of relationships with appropriate partners. However, in the context of the internet, I started to kind of cross these thresholds and to seek out content that held my attention or that gave me a stronger emotional reaction or conversations with children where I could feel a sense of influence and control in a way that I couldn't with adults.

So our experience at the foundation and through our work suggests that perhaps the more common story is this kind of root-fire adult pornography, but it's not the only story by any stretch. In the podcast, Alphabet Boys, we take you inside undercover investigations. I'm Trevor Aronson, and in our second season, we have an Alphabet Soup, with the DEA, the CIA,

and the FBI all mixed up in the same case. At the center of the story is Flavio. But who is Flavio? I see movies with arm dealers on TV. Okay, I'm going there for C.A. but I'm going to die. When I land, there's Flavio in a suit. It's like follow me. And he slams down his badge in my passport.

And I'm like, uh, something's going on here. So you do personal security all over the world, and you have somebody call you and say, can you get grenades and guns for this guy in Colombia? Not, not 55 grenades, a lot of ammunition. It's a mystery wrapped around an international arm steal, who are the cops, who are the criminals, and is anyone really who they claim to be?

Listen to Alphabet Boys on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry for the Inside Scoop on Women's Soccer? I'm Sam Uis, and I'm Lynn Williams, and we're professional soccer players, best friends, and the host of snacks, the only women's soccer podcast hosted by active players that gets into the most recent news, gossip, and fun of the NWC,

the women's national team, and the delightful, delicious, wacky world of snacks. It's a weekly show about women's soccer, our friendship, the foods that we like, the places we get our haircut, the random things that we come up with in our daily lives, and we get to talk to a bunch of our friends all the time, which is like one of my favorite birds about it. That's also my favorite part too. Each week we have guests like Kelly O'Hara, Megan Rapino, Julie Fowdy,

all giving you an inside look at the end of your cell, the Roge of the World Cup, and Women's Sports Culture. So what are you waiting for? Listen to snacks on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or a VGAIR podcast. There's a ton of stuff they don't want you to know. Does the US government really have alien technology? And what about the future of artificial intelligence, AI?

What happens when computers learn to think? Could there be a serial killer in your town? From UFOs to psychic powers and government cover-ups, from unsolved crimes to the bleeding edge of science, history is riddled with unexplained events. We spend a decade applying critical thinking to some of the most bizarre phenomenon civilization and beyond. Each week we dive deep into unsolved mysteries, conspiracy theories and actual conspiracies. You've heard about these things, but what's the full story? Listen to stuff they don't want you to know on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your favorite shows. But Dr. Bone sees it differently.

If a 15 year old kid starts to look at pornography, I don't think that there's going to be this devolution of deviance or this evolution of deviance. I think that there's something else that's already in there, that then we have access to all the stuff that's out there that gets tripped. I think that for the most part, that's more of urban tale. My theory of pedophilia is that there is something biologically cross-wired that's going on either through development, or genetics, or for evolution.

Like something has occurred that would trick that person into wanting to consume that kind of pornography. You then get these other guys that just consume everything that there is. A child is not a sexual creature in our minds. But some of these men and women develop such a distorted way of seeing the world and seeing other human beings that they either believe or they convince themselves that that five year old such a distorted way of seeing the world and seeing other human beings that they either believe or they convince themselves that that five year old was coming onto them.

In Tom's experience, he has found that adult pornography has been the gateway for illegal content. But Tom isn't focused on the why as much as the how. As in, how did you get to this place? And how do we stop it before it starts? And you might be surprised, who stop it now, ask for help. Mind Geek are the owners of a number of mainstream adult pornography sites. Mind Geek owns PornHub and UPorn, among many other adult porn entities. The team at

Lucy Faithful persuaded the biggest purveyor of pornography in the world to post a warning message when someone searches for video content with children. That might be asking for young teenage pictures. A message would then appear on their screen to let them know that their search terms were both concerning, but also crucially to let them know that confidential help is available through us at Stop It Now, and that people could be directed to our resources. So for us, that was a really attractive option because we're interested in preventing people offending at the earliest possible opportunity and ideally before they have committed in the fence.

We want to get the message out to this very hard to reach group of people that there is help available and that there is a different decision that they can make which would minimize the risk of children being harmed. In a 2014 paper on the Treatment and Management of Child Pornography Use, the authors Michael Cito and Atticunle Ahmed classify different types of offenders who consume child sexual assault material, also known as CCAM. They found that in some cases CCAM use might be motivated by hypersexual or compulsive sexual behavior. In other cases, its use may be a result of reckless or impulsive behavior or accidental access or curiosity. This suggests there are different types of CCM offenders, a parafill group comprised

of individuals who would meet the diagnosis of pedophilia, a sexually compulsive or hypersexual group who would need assessment and treatment regarding their sexual self-regulation, a group of impulsive, risk-taking individuals who require more general intervention regarding their self-regulation, and a relatively low-need group of accidental or curious users. Depending on the classification, different recommendations, assessments, and diagnoses apply. I thought about Jason, Michael, and Joel, husbands, and fathers.

Which type of offender do they fall into? I think it's interesting to note, they all said it wasn't sexual. What else would they say? Maybe by saying that, they thought it would get them off the hook. Maybe make them less evil? So I asked Tom, what does someone get out of viewing CSAM? There are lots of needs at play and I think your audience would assume rightly that a keeny that's being met through the behaviour is a sexual need one of sexual pleasure and

a rousal, but that's not the only need and in my view there's almost always some emotional needs that are met through the behaviour. The examples of that might be that it might provide someone with a form of escapism from the challenges of their day-to-day life and the difficulties that they're experiencing. Perhaps those difficulties generate strong feelings for them, of feeling inadequate in some way, or might be affecting their sense of self-worth. So engaging with this sexual content, be it adult pornography or sexual images of children or abusive conversations with children online provides this kind of solace to people's sense of themselves, their sense of kind of worth in many ways, and provides them with this escape, and the escape then helps them manage their feelings.

Other examples might be for some people, this might be the one part of their life where they can experience themselves as being influential and potent, where they can feel like their decisions and behaviour are kind of shaping their experience and also shaping the experience of someone else. In addition to being convicted on one count of sexual exploitation of a minor, Jason was also convicted of two counts of voyeurism for filming Avea. I asked Dr. Bone, why someone would engage in that behavior? I think that there is an element often times of the sneakiness and getting away with

and I'm checking you out and that's kind of turning me on because you don't know that I'm looking at you. And there's like some power there, and there's just like, sneakiness. The Utah prison system has a rehabilitation program that starts with one of the toughest things for an offender to accept. Accountability. It is a process of confronting all prior bad acts. Even the ones, nobody knows about. So they get immunity, but they have to disclose everything that they've ever done. And they get it out and it takes 18 to 24 months to believe the treatment that you done does. So it's basically this immersive experience where they literally have to confront everything they've done. They have to write out their disclosure and then read it to their group.

It's kind of a pure accountability component to it. I wasn't sure what the point of that was or if people would be honest, but Dr. Bone sees a lot of value in the disclosure. Part of any use disorder, so alcohol or porn use disorder, there's a tremendous amount of guilt and shame, but I think that divesting oneself all this stuff in a forum where you know you're not gonna get into trouble is probably very relieving for them. The statistics are staggering.

According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, there are more than 29 million reports of suspected child sexual exploitation annually. That is over a half a million reports weekly. When we started this series, we were appalled at what we perceived as short prison sentences. In Joel and Michael's case, they did not serve their full time, and Jason's was comparatively low. I spoke with former Utah U.S. attorney John Hubert about what he was up against when he was in office.

The problem with child pornography is it is improper in our social morays if not the law and regulations to talk about it for what it is. I mean to say rape of a child, sawdame of a child. That's really gruesome. And yet, it doesn't capture the impact of that offense on that child. And it's an impact that that child and their family will live with for the rest of their lives. You can't erase that experience from a child.

And we know from social studies that that child will have a very, very difficult time in life. Why? Because someone stole their childhood from them. I asked John what he would like to see happen legislatively in Utah. Where could they do better? In Utah, it's not like the legislature is taking a pass on holding child offenders accountable.

In fact, let me give you an example. If a person videos themselves or has someone else film them in the act of sexually abusing a child, those people directly involved in that crime face 25 years to life in prison, minimum mandatory penalty in Utah State prison under Utah law. That surpasses the possible sentence that you could get in federal court for that same offense. So, this take this very seriously as anyone would and should. My concern is with the run of the meal cases.

This goes on constantly. Dozens upon hundreds of cases where you have these images and collections and trading images and bartering them like their baseball cards. It's those offenders that I am so concerned about because they're not getting the attention in court or according to state law that I believe they should. When he says run of the mill, he is referring to cases like Jason Joel and even the one his office prosecuted, Michael. Individuals who aren't necessarily hands on or creating their own content, but these offenders are perpetuating the trade and production of

CSAM by consuming the content. By doing so, they are sustaining and promoting an ever-growing market, which means more sexual exploitation, more child abuse. You think about the world of child pornography and the waves of offenders that are sweeping through our courts across all the states. Do we say, well, there's so many, we can't do anything? Do we need to think of a different way

to handle these offenders because there are so many or because some view it as an addiction problem? To me, there's a huge difference between someone who gets caught in a cycle of addiction and abuse of drugs and their life spirals out of control and they make very poor decisions The risk associated with that person even if they succumb to overdose and they pass away That price seems different than Price seems different than shifting the risk onto the community to say, we'll do our best on this vector of child pornography. And we'll try to give them chances to rehabilitate and such.

The risk there is to their next child victim. How can we say we can absorb that risk as a community or a family? The price is too high because the price is a child's life, and their family and their friends and that burden that they're going to have to carry because an adult took their innocence away from them. In the podcast, Alphabet Boys, we take you inside undercover investigations. I'm Trevor Aronson. And in our second season, we have an Alphabet Soup, with the DEA, the CIA, and the FBI

all mixed up in the same case. At the center of this story is Flavio. But who is Flavio? I see movies with arm dealers on TV. Okay, I'm going there forcière, but I'm gonna die. When I land, there's Flavio in a suit. It's like follow me and he slams down his badge in my passport and I'm like, uh, something is going on here.

So you do personal security all over the world and you have somebody call you and say can you get grenades and guns for this guy in Colombia? Not not certified grenades, a lot of ammunition. It's a mystery wrapped around an international arm steel who are the cops, who are the criminals, and is anyone really who they claim to be? Listen to alphabet boys on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry for the inside scoop on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Are you hungry for the inside scoop on Women's Soccer? I'm Sam Uis and I'm Lynn Williams. And we're professional soccer players, best friends, and the host of snacks, the only Women's Soccer Podcast hosted by active players that gets into the most recent news, gossip, and fun of the NWC, the Women's National Team, and the delightful, delicious, wacky world of snacks. It's a weekly show about women's soccer, our friendship, the foods that we like, the places we get our hair cut, the random things that we come up with in our daily lives,

and we get to talk to a bunch of our friends all the time, which is like one of my favorite parts about it. That's also my favorite part too. Each week we have guests like Kelly O'Hara, Megan Rapino, Julie Fowdy, all giving you an inside look at the end of your cell, the Roge of the World Cup, and Women's Sports Culture. So what are you waiting for? Listen to Snacks on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or a VGAE Podcasts. There's a ton of stuff they don't want you to know. Does the US government really have alien technology? And what about the future of artificial intelligence, AI?

What happens when computers learn to think? Could there be a serial killer in your town? From UFOs to psychic powers and government cover-ups, from unsolved crimes to the bleeding edge of science, history is riddled with unexplained events. We've spent a decade applying critical thinking to some of the most bizarre phenomenon civilization and beyond. Each week, we dive deep into unsolved mysteries,

conspiracy theories and actual conspiracies. You've heard about these things, but what's the full story? Listen to stuff they don't want you to know on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows. The price is high, and there is trauma all around. While no damage can possibly compare to the victims of sexual exploitation, the women we've met really are victims themselves. There's a growing body of research that perhaps the majority of partners in this situation would meet the diagnostic threshold for post-traumatic stress disorder that the impact of police investigations has huge detrimental effect potentially on all

aspects of their life, their employment, their family relationships where they're living and so forth, and that family members to share this fear of public exposure and stigma in shame by association. Because in the majority of cases there is no reason why other family members ought to have known or ought to have suspected this. Absolutely. I'm sure Erin, Mandy and Ashley would all love to hear someone say it out loud. On this side of the pond, I don't think any of them felt that they were treated as victims with PTSD. This kind of metaphorical bomb going off in people's lives and this moment of discovery that the person who was their partner, their husband, their adult son, their father has been behaving in a way which typically they never imagined in their wildest dreams

might be the truth of the matter, with devastating consequences for them. So there's a recognition in recent years and we're keen to kind of promote that awareness about the impact and needs of these people in their own right. I hope in the spirit of recognizing those impacted, family, friends and children continue to be a focus of support. Like Tom said, Obama and Ashley's life has been left picking up the pieces. She's been doing a lot of work in therapy in an effort to not let this whole experience break her.

She can't change what happened. But in this session with Jessica, they talk about what she has learned. I think I decide that's what life is. It's just a series of fires that we just constantly put out. Really, really hard lessons. I'm like, okay, I have the School of Life I've taken enough lessons for a little while. I need a little break. Yeah, I'm like, you know, skip me a week. Like one week.

Right. Just let everything go. Smooth. Yeah. I realized that I really don't let myself cry, because I think in any moment in my life when things have been really hard, I'm able to disassociate a little bit. Yeah, and some of that dissociating is like healthy in order to get through life.

And then in the right environments with the right people, it's okay to let that down because it's not about feeling sorry for yourself, it's about forming compassion and empathy and understanding. But there is one area where Jessica noticed Ashley would get emotional when it came to Jason. One of the things that came up for me was when he was in the bedroom and kind of distancing himself from you for months and you were just trying harder and harder and harder to

get back into connection. That's where a lot of the sadness came out. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because I was like, what's wrong with me? Like, what am I lacking that he doesn't want anything to do with? You know, and so I did a lot of like self-hate and really not good self-talk and things like that,

but I was just like, need to be kinder to me. Yeah, and so when we're being rejected, instead of seeing a problem with what's going on in their world, we internalize it, and it can be called developmental shaying, but then this inherent sense that something is wrong with me. It's actually been there a whole life, and it shows up in our romantic bonds, and we don't get the love and exchange that we want. We make it about us. We turn it inwards. And there was a

lot going on in Jason's world that Ashley was internalizing. We heard about the drawings, missing work, and sitting out of family parties. How many years of disconnection was there? I feel like it was kind of off and on. It started when I was eight months pregnant and he had an affair. That's when I really took those rose colored glasses off and just started noticing things. But that's when I really started to see things changing.

And then the last three years of our marriage, he was completely different person. He's always played on flag football leagues and he was a gamer, so he'd game and like, all that stuff. Every season for the University of Utah football games, we had season tickets with all of our friends. All of a sudden, he sold our tickets off

and he's had him for like 20 years. And then there was no adulting. Like I couldn't have a conversation with him about anything serious. I don't know, like teenager responses and behavior and everything. If I found out on a Tuesday that that following Saturday, we were going to be going to dinner with our family or something, I wouldn't tell him and tell maybe the morning of because he just could not handle the anxiety of it and he would make my life hell. Also, he'd started taking a lot of baths and would like be in the bath for hours.

And then we weren't intimate at all at this point. And then I started serving him like his dinner in bed. Like he'd just be in the room, so I'd bring it to him in the room. And that was it. So he's completely isolating himself at that point. I feel embarrassed almost because I was giving it my all in those moments. I feel foolish. Like I was on a whole in those moments. I felt foolish. Like, I was on a whole different planet than he was. Nothing would have been enough.

I'm so happy that you can see that now and the experience of giving, giving, giving, and self-abandoning is an adaptation that we learn to try to get into connection when we're terrified of losing connection to someone that we've been relying on. I think you're helping women by doing your own work, looking at your fears, looking at your trauma, understanding your adaptive strategies, the denial system that you had in place,

what you were really scared of facing. All of us, myself included, we stay in situations sometimes longer or longer than our intuition is letting us, because there's an underlying fear around losing our life or losing that attachment that's very valid. So a lot of these women, while the behavior out there is obvious, the fear of facing ourselves and starting over and facing our fears. It takes a courageous person and sometimes it takes a really horrific event. It is okay enough, this is my bottom. I need to move forward and detach.

It can be very hard. Yeah. I'm so proud of myself. Yes, you should be. On the next episode of Betrayal, a teacher in one of the country's best school districts is caught posing as a teenager online to solicit sexually-explicit videos from an underage girl. from an underage girl. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at patrialpod at gmail.com. That's patrialpod at gmail.com.

To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line at 1-800-THE LOST. If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to StopItNow.org. In the United Kingdom, go to StopItNow.org.uk. These organizations can help. We're grateful for your support.

One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review betrayal. 5-star reviews go a long way. is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I Heart Podcasts.

The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass in Jennifer Fason, who stood and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristin Melcuri. Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck, special thanks to our talent Ashley Litten and production assistant, Tessa Shields.

Thank you to Jessica Baum, Dr. Bone, Tom Squire, and the Lucy Faithful Foundation, audio editing and mixing by Matt DeVecchio, Tom, Dr. Bone, Tom Squire, and the Lucy Faithful Foundation. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Tavecchio, Patreil's theme composed by Oliver Baines, Music Library provided by Mybe Music, and for more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts. Alphabet Boys is a podcast that takes you inside undercover investigations. In the second season, we've got an alphabet soup with the DEA, the CIA, and the FBI all mixed up in the same case. So you do personal security all over the world and you had somebody call you and say, can you get grenades and guns for this guy in Colombia? Not, not, not. It's a mystery wrapped around an international arm steal, alphabet boys.

On the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry for the inside scoop of Women's Soccer? I'm Sam Ues, and I'm Lynn Williams. And we're professional soccer players, best friends, and the hosts of snacks, the only women's soccer podcast hosted by active players that gets into the most recent news, gossip, and fun of the end of the sell, the women's national team, and the delightful, delicious world of snacks.

It's a weekly show that features great guests from the world of women's soccer, recaps and previews of the biggest matches, and the two of us hanging out with you. Listen to stacks on the iHeartRadio app Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Last year, as Putin launched his full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Russian oligarchs suddenly started dying, more than a dozen in the space of nine months. Many of the deaths are suspicious with links to the Kremlin. In this new investigative series with me, Jake Hanrahann, we're asking the

question, who's killing Russia's billionaires? This is Sad Olegark. Listen to Sad Olegark on the IHART radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.