Betrayal - S2: E8 - One Step At A Time

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

Ashley and Erin regroup to discuss how the series has affected them. Andrea shares listener emails with Ashley and Avaya.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail].   To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's CyberTipline at 1-800-THE-LOST  If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to stopitnow.orgSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The True Crime Podcast, Sacred Scandal, returns for a second season to investigate a led sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine, that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the Apostle. Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHR radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 911 what's your emergency? It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. An Achiller?

Who is still on the loose? In the 1980s we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members. We weren't safe anywhere. Would we be next? It was getting harder and harder to live in Mompine. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Get your tickets now at AXS.com for our 2023 I are already a music festival coming back to Las Vegas tonight September 22nd and 23rd one

state. A T-Mobile Arena streaming live only on Hulu is the I already a music festival by your tickets for our 2023 I already a music festival now. Starting at just $55 plus taxes and fees at AXS.com. Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners. Please take care while listening.

Hi all, we have some exciting news to share. ABC Studios has turned the trial season one into a documentary. You will get to meet the people involved in season one, and you'll hear from people who have never spoken before. And you get to see where the whole story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. You can start streaming it on Hulu on July 11th. But now let's jump into the episode. Doing internet search any day of the week for people who were arrested for possessing, producing, or downloading child sexual abuse material. You'll find something like this. Homeland Security investigators say they arrested this Walt Disney World employee on child pornography charges. 41

year old facing three counts of on child pornography charges 41 year old spacing three counts of distributing child pornography elementary school teachers also a youth pass to accused of using a cell phone to commit sex crimes involving children police officers behind bars this morning charges this ship child pornography a stunning turn for a mayor in his second term in office police say he both possessed and distributed images and videos of his own. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, episode 8, one step at a time. It's been about a year since Ashley Linton first wrote into us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com.

That's how this all started, one email, then another, and another. That opened my eyes to the crime of sexual exploitation of children that's happening everywhere. And the shocking reality that those involved are community leaders, friends, neighbors, loved ones, and partners. Three courageous women, Ashley, Mandy, and Erin, told us their story so that we might better understand

the reality of what our families and our kids are facing. Now here's something I haven't told you. A lot of people urged us not to tell this story. They said, nobody wants to hear about this topic. It's a loser for a podcast. Some were friends, and some are in the business. But you've proved them wrong. You stayed with us.

My boss backed us, and I heart said, yes, we believe in this. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. This is the last episode of the regular season. So I wanted to go back to the women who made this whole thing happen. I spoke with Ashley, who lives outside Salt Lake City, Utah, and Erin who is near Fresno, California.

Both took the bold step of turning their husbands into law enforcement upon finding C. Sam in their homes, knowing they were ending life as they knew it. Erin lived with her husband Joel and her two kids outside of a military base in Texas. She fled to California after her discovery. Ashley's husband Jason was also filming her daughter Avaea and was ultimately charged with voyeurism. Now that they have been a part of the series and have gone public, we wanted to reconnect. So guys, I wanted us to get together today to talk about the season and see how you guys are doing after hearing the majority of the episodes.

I mean, you both kind of had very similar experiences, like even down to calling your brother and laws that are in law enforcement. So I guess I'll start with Erin. Erin, what was it like hearing Ashley's story? I felt super validating to hear such a similar experience, but one thing that really, really blew me away was our origin story, like having a sick mother, and I don't know how Ashley described her father, but like mine was emotionally unavailable, You know, and just like having that dynamic and then seeing how that led to our attachment style and potentially some co-dependence there.

It kind of felt like at the longing. I was like, I have somebody that's met me in this same crossroads. So it felt really validating for me also. It's not a tribe you wanna be a part of, but you also don't want to be alone in either. And so like you said, we're not the victims according to C-SAM. So I found little support there. Other divorces and even people on dating apps, they don't understand how I feel

or that I feel like I did nothing wrong in my marriage. So it's just really, really alienating, but then to find somebody else in those crossroads is like, oh, thank God, I'm relatable to somebody. Yeah. With everything you've both been through, can you even imagine or be open to allowing yourself to be vulnerable? To be in a relationship again? Would you even consider a new relationship?

I knew for sure that I never wanted to date again. I couldn't reconcile how I would bring somebody into like my safe circle that I've built over the last year, especially with the children. However, there is a good friend of mine that has been really supportive and really patient and really kind. I had known this particular person from years before and he'd reached out just to see how I was doing and then asked if we could go get

coffee. At that point I still can even leave my home. I didn't feel safe enough to even go to the grocery store. So to think about going in public, not even just with me, but with another male by myself, I physically couldn't do it. So after a couple of weeks, I agreed to go to dinner with them, you know, as a platonic thing. We'd kind of talked here and there. And we got to the dinner place and I was like, I can't go in. And then he's like, well, do you want to get drive through? Like, what's your favorite food? And I was like, okay, French fries. He's really had to endure quite a bit to stay involved in my life because there's plenty of times if I were him, I'd be like, this is a lot.

But he's been really cool. For me, when I heard you actually say he has to deal with a lot because of me or whatever, if he wants to be in your life, he's going to have to. I just want you to speak highly of your life because you've done so much to get to where you are. And I don't want you to talk about what your experience is in any shame or put that down because you

didn't put yourself in this situation. Jason did. I think you're totally right. And I think there might be something that Erin's already processed through that I haven't, because it's been in stages. I don't feel like I have a big banner above my head that says, hey, my name's Ashley.

I have three kids. I have a great career. Oh, and guess what? My husband, Jason, arrested for a child pornography. You know, so it's not like that anymore, but I feel like I'm still hiding it behind my back. You know, like it's still there. Right. It defines every single day of my life. Anything that goes wrong or not as planned, I still am like, fuck you Jason. That's really what I think. Right now, what he did still defines so much of the kids and I in our days

and how we move forward, but you know, slowly going away. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. What about you, Aaron? How has this affected your ability to trust and your openness to relationships? Initially, I felt similar. It was really scary and it took me some time to open up to people. But over the course of time, I kind of swung the other way. I'm hyper-independent, as far as attachment styles. I'm more love-avoidant, where I can cut somebody off quickly. Also being a therapist, I'm working on myself

and I'm thinking about that, some feelings and systemic behavior all day long, every day of the week. So I'm not ready in a position to not be relatable to most men. The emotional IQ just isn't there for me. So I do try to online date, I do try to connect with people, but if it doesn't work out for me, I'm quick to shut that down and move another way because my life is good. I've done a lot of work to clean up that part. We don't have baggage moving forward. I have the custody of my kids. My kids were young

when this all happened. So the only person I have to blame for their behavior is myself because I'm the only one who's been raising them and has this attachment to them. I'd like to think as far as the package that I put out moving forward is, hi, I'm Erin, I have a great job, I run my own business, I have two wonderful kids, this is us, and the rest of it is just background noise at this point. Wow, you're amazing. Yeah. Sacred Skando, one of the best new podcasts of 2022, is back with a closer look at the darkness

surrounding mega church La Luz del Mundo and its leader, Nasson Joaquin Garcia. They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the Luz del Mundo had an incredible control on his community. That began in Mexico and then grew across the United States

until one day. A day of reckoning for the man who's millions of followers called him the Apostle. Their leader was arrested and survivors began to speak out about the sexual abuse, the murder and corruption. This is just a business and their product are people. They want to know that they will kill you. Listen to all episodes now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts.

911, what's your emergency? You shot her! Oh my God! It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. And a killer who is still on the loose. My small town rocked by murder. There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss. In the 1980s, we're in high school losing friends, teachers, and community members.

One after another, after another, for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere. We're teenagers terrified to leave our own homes. Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why? In that moment, I saw rage. And why do you some want the town secrets to stay dead and buried forever?

I'm not sure why you're digging up all this old stuff again, but I'd be careful. Don't say I didn't warn you, Nancy. Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Facing evil is back and we're bringing you conversations that truly matter. I can't tell you how many times she had said he's going to kill me. I will never escape him, he will find me and he will kill me. We're talking with experts and change makers devoted to making a difference in these tragic true crime stories.

Our system failed us and we need to make sure that that does not happen again for anyone in this country. We are all trying to bring the light to the darkness. The main aim of spreading a story in the teach everyone that everyone deserves equal rights. Everyone deserves to understand that history is taught and shared so that it can never be repeated again. New episodes of Facing Evil are available now.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. If you had a chance, Ash, would you go back to your old life before you found out everything? Wow. I'm going to be super honest. I miss how naive I was to all of this ugly. I miss the mother I was. I miss the routine. I just miss that boring mundane life

that many people, when they're married for a decade or whatever however long you're like, this is fucking boring. I miss that. I miss that with every single ounce of my soul. So I don't know. I can't fully 100% answer that. I totally understand that.

But through my therapy with Jess, I also know that I would have never been able to deal with some of my core wounds that have led me to some of the choices that I made or not valuing myself and not trusting myself. Maybe me being who I was then would have made it worse for the children than actually dealing with how we got to this spot.

So for the first time in my life, I feel joy that I've never felt. It's like living in a black and white world my whole life and then all the sudden I see color and I know what I like and I know what I want. I'm like you are smart and you're beautiful and you are worthy and you are a good mother and this is a good choice. I have to actually have that self-diolog down. Erin, you first found out that your husband Joel was consuming C. Sam in 2017, so it's been considerably longer. You seem to be able to separate what happened from the life you have with your kids now. I was a wife because I liked that role. I was playing. I liked that dynamic that we had,

but it really had nothing to do with him. I didn't like being his wife, but I liked having those family values, you know, having the potential to have children and go to soccer games and make breakfast in the morning. I love doing all of that stuff. And that's because that's my character. It has nothing to do with what he deserves or what he didn't deserve. I would have done that stuff anyway. Yeah, it was free, it was unconditional. Would I want to go back to that life? Fuck. No. That was a lie. That was a hail. Yeah, facade. Yeah, a total facade. Now, I think I actually have the chance at being unchained and real and authentic with someone and like what a blessing. And we're young, we've got tons of time to do this right. Listening to you talk makes me emotional on such a cryer. I just want to hold you. I feel like you're a past version of me.

I hope you're a future version of me. That's such a supreme compliment. But I just want to say, it's going to be okay. It's going to be better. I wish that people that we interacted with or tried to date understood what a fucking blessing it is to be with someone like us Because we stepped up and we did the right thing We have integrity we have strength. We know what we want. We know how to deal with difficult situations And sometimes that just gets me when people Maybe misunderstand me as a burden because I think I'm fucking awesome. You are.

And you're gonna be awesome too. Our goal was to unearth a betrayal going on in homes across the country. A new friendship between these women is an extra gift. Another gift is hearing from our audience. We set up an email, betrayalpod at gmail.com so you can send us anything, your own story of betrayal, thoughts about the podcast, even complaints. We get a few of those. But mostly we've seen letters of support or similar experiences. We asked

Ashley and her teenage daughter Avaia who was the victim of her stepfather Jason's voyeurism, sit with us and read some. How's been everything since we launched the show? I've been thinking about you. Good, really good. I've had a lot of girls reach out to me about the podcast which is super cool. So this one says a veia. Hi, I'm sure a veia has heard she's an inspiration.

I'm sure she's heard she's strong that she's persevered through the worst thing imaginable. As someone who was abused by their mother's fiance at 12 years old, Avaia is more than that. She's a role model. I'm 24 now, and I never told my mother what happened, even though she knows. I was groomed and abused by my father until I was 15 15 and I never told anyone about it until I met my husband. Avaea's strength to come forward and give the biggest middle finger to Jason felt so cathartic to hear. She's laying stones for healing, helping pave the way for the kids who are going through all of this, and will unfortunately go through this in the future.

I hope that they know is how inspirational her bravery and strength is. I wish Evea Ashley and the whole betrayal crew the best. Thank you for telling the story and bringing awareness to a dangerous oversight in the criminal justice system. Thank you so much. Jay. Oh, it's really awesome to hear other people's stories and like them have the strength to come forward and talk about it. Even them writing that email is such a big thing too. Right, because even putting together an email could be scary to somebody.

Yeah, yeah, clicking send could be the hardest thing that they've ever done, you know. Right. Hello, I just started season two today and my heart is pounding. I was also a victim of a partner who committed a crime with child pornography. He worked with underage girls as a youth wellness coordinator and accessed the internal records at his work to track down his victims on Facebook and groomed them. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about it still, but hearing others on the podcast talk about going through the same thing has been really helpful

in the process and processing my trauma. Thank you so much for making this podcast, Emma. It's just mind blowing to me. I never would have imagined people from across the world reaching out to us telling us their stories and how they feel. When she had said the way that her partner had groomed his victims, it made me remember the shame that I felt

and how terrible it wasn't when she said that she was able to work through some of the trauma by hearing this story. It's another one of those things where I was like, okay, this is exactly where I am supposed to be right now because of women like her. The next one, I just want to say to Ashley, thank you for being there for your kids. I went through something like your daughter went through, but it turned out differently. My grandfather violated me, my sister, and my cousin for years.

It started when I was four and only stopped when I was six, and it's because my cousin told the police. My grandfather first started out with C. Sam, and then all the way up to what he did to us. When my mom found out what had happened and the things he did, she couldn't believe that her father could do such terrible things, so she didn't believe any of it. She refused to face reality to protect her children, and it's why I haven't spoken to her in years.

Ashley, you have saved countless little girls from being severely traumatized and hurt by Jason. I can never, ever thank you enough for that. You are an amazing mom, and I just wish my younger self had a mom that was even half as brave as you are. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Wow. I think my biggest fear through all of this was exactly what this woman has wrote in. I always thought that there's a possibility that someday,

my children will be upset with maybe the way that I Originally handled Jason being caught and one day they choose not to have a relationship with me because of the way that I initially had Reacted you mean when you went back into waithy mode and supporting him after he got out of jail the first time Yeah, but I also know that once you know I kind of went through that grief and really got over some of the denial and really looked at it straight in the face. I realized a couple things. One of them was, in my opinion, the criminal justice system isn't there for the victims.

I'm so grateful that this woman heard us and I'm grateful that in 10 years, 20 years, that my children and other children and other women can look back, and they'll know that this was my fight. This was the only way I knew how to fight for them. Yeah. Thank you. When we first went out to Utah, here's what Aveia told us about the podcast.

So when my mother had first told me about this project, I kind of was like, what is she? She's crazy. She has lost her mind. Something is wrong with her. She is her, she batshit crazy. She thinks that she's getting on a damn podcast. Aveia, do you think your mom's so bad shit crazy for getting on a damn podcast? Um, no, no. I definitely don't think so now.

This podcast has changed my mom's life. It has made her a completely different person and I am beyond grateful for this podcast and I guess I didn't really understand it as much at first, but now that it's really like inaction and going on, I really understand the help that it's brought to my mom and I definitely don't think she's about to shoot crazy anymore. I definitely am beyond proud of her.

Sacred Skandal, one of best new podcasts of 2022, is back with a closer look at the darkness surrounding Megaturge La Luz del Mundo and its leader, Nasson Joaquin Garcia. They believe that he was Jesus Christ on Earth. It wasn't even so much that he liked sex. He wanted something to pray. It's the largest cult in the world that no one has ever heard of. For three generations, the Luz del Mundo had an incredible control on his community that began in Mexico and then grew across the United States, until one day.

A day of reckoning for the man whose millions of followers called him the Apostle. Their leader was arrested and survivors began to speak out about the sexual abuse, the murder, and corruption. This is just a business and their product are people. They want to know that they will kill you. Listen to all episodes now on the iHeartReadyUp Apple Podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. 911, what's your emergency? You shot her! Oh my God!

It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. An Achiller? Who is still on the loose? My small town rocked by murder. There are certain murders I'm scared to discuss. In the 1980s, we're in high school losing friends, teachers and community members. One after another, after another, for a decade. We weren't safe anywhere.

We're teenagers terrified to leave our own homes. Would we be next? Who is killing all the kids? And why? In that moment, I saw rage. And why do you some want the town town secrets to stay dead and buried forever? I'm not sure why you're digging up all this old stuff again, but I'd be careful. Don't say I didn't warn you, Nancy.

Listen to the Murder Years on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're talking with experts and change makers devoted to making a difference in these tragic true crime stories. Our system failed us, and we need to make sure that that does not happen again for anyone in this country. We are all trying to bring the light to the darkness. The main aim of spreading a story in the teach everyone that everyone deserves equal rights. Everyone deserves to understand that history is taught and shared so that it can never

be repeated again. New episodes of Facing Evil are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. At the beginning of this series, I told you about flying into Salt Lake City and the inviting shadowy mountains that welcomed us late at night when we arrived. We had come here to meet Ashley Linton and learn about what happened to her family. I told you about the sinister things that had happened in her home, all of the conflicting feelings of grappling with the beauty and the darkness. Before we left Salt Lake City, we drove up to the Utah State Capitol one afternoon.

The building sits at a high elevation overlooking downtown Salt Lake City. A grand staircase sits up front with symmetrical Corinthian columns along the width of the building. And signed peak, a hill with religious significance to Latter-day Saints, peaks from behind. The building reminds you of a mini version of the capital in DC. It was cold, but there was a clear blue sky when we arrived. We entered through a side door. There was security there, a few police officers.

And we stood there. We were waiting for a metal detector. Maybe someone to go through our bag. Something to happen. It was a little awkward to be honest. Finally, my producer said with all the authorities she could muster, we're here to see the Attorney General. The cops looked at us, bemused and said, well, what did you do? Okay, we're from Philly. This was so different from what we'd expect. Yeah, it's the people's house, sure, but we're still checking

your bag. Not here. Nobody was checking anything. Third floor was all they said with a wave. We had some extra time so we roamed around the building. Built in 1916, the Utah Capitol building has a dome supported by striking marble stones, dotted with skylights and murals depicting early pioneers. We walked around and peeked into the chambers, where the state senate and state house meet, and then we met up with Attorney General Reyes's chief of staff for a can trial. Okay, there is one thing you should see. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. is not like Jordan Washington or something like that. It's these, there, where you can see on each side, they kind of dips down. At first, I couldn't tell what Rick was talking about.

They looked like normal steps, but then it became clear. Oh my god! I noticed on the right side, you can see an indentation in the marble. Worn down, created by a hundred years of footsteps. That's literally just like hard work, wearing terror of people that is going to work. Since the statue of democracy carved by literal democracy. Negotiating, working, evolving to make change. Change for the better.

During the project I thought about the staircase often. Sometimes it can be frustrating, wondering, well, things ever change. But these stairs reminded me it just starts with one step, and dedication to keep moving forward and upward. We can make laws. We can tell our representatives what matters to us and what we expect of them. If they don't hear us, we can find new representatives. We can hold people accountable

when they hurt our children. But trail starts with the people brave enough to share what's wrong in their relationships and in our greater society. My hope is we'll all do something to make it better. greater society. My hope is we'll all do something to make it better. I'm Andrea Gunning and you'll hear from me on a bonus episode soon. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team email us at patrialpod at gmail.com that's pat patrialpod at gmail.com. To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line at 1-800-THE LOST. If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children,

reach out to stopitnow.org. In the United Kingdom, go to stopitnow.org.uk. These organizations can help. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I Heart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass in Jennifer Fason, who stood and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Thederman and associate producer Kristin Melcuri.

Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck, special thanks to our talent Ashley Litten, Avea and Aaron. Thank you to production assistant Tessa Shields. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DeVecchio, Petrails theme composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mybe Music, and for more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The True Crime Podcast Sacred Scandal returns for a second season to investigate a led sexual abuse at Mexico's La Luz del Mundo Mega Church. Journalist Robert Garza explores survivor stories of pure evil experiences at the hands of a self-proclaimed apostle who is now behind bars. I remember as a little girl being groomed to be his concubine, that's how I was raised. It is not wrong if you take your clothes off for the apostle. Listen to Sacred Scandal on the IHORP radio app Apple Podcasts

or wherever you get your podcasts. 911, what's your emergency? It's a nightmare we could never have imagined. And a killer who is still on the loose. In the 1980s, we were in high school losing friends, teachers and community members. We weren't safe anywhere. Would we be next?

It was getting harder and harder to live in Mount Pine. Listen to the Murder Years on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Get your tickets now at AXS.com. For our 2023 I Heart Radio music festival coming back to Las Vegas tonight September 22nd and 23rd one state global arena streaming live only on who the is the I already a music festival by your tickets for our 2023 I

already a music festival now starting at just fifty five dollars plus taxes and fees at a excess dot com I art radio music festival now. Starting at just $55 plus taxes and fees. At AXS.com.