Betrayal - S3: E7 – One in Six

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

Struggling to find community, Tyler connects with actor Anthony Edwards and psychologist David Lisak. Anthony and David are not only survivors of sexual abuse, but leaders of 1in6, an organization that supports men who have experienced sexual abuse and assault.   If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail]  If you’re a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, or you know someone who is seeking support, go to 1in6.org. Find a path to a happier, healthier future. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From KT Studios, the number one podcast, The Idaho Massacre is back. The new developments in the University of Idaho murder case. It was an unimaginable crime. One house, four victims, only one accused. If this is true, then this guy is the real life Dexter. Listen to season two of The Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all new podcast,

There and Gone. It's a real life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why? Listen to There and Gone South Street

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guys, we are back. We are so excited. It is season two of your favorite new girl rewatch podcast we have got a new season we got a new name we've got some of your favorite people from the new girl universe we've got the creator and showrunner Liz Merriwether we got the Max Greenfield Olivia Munn we also have

some of your least favorites like like Jake Johnson I'm Warren. Hannah what's up? We do have Jake Johnson though. Yeah. Listen to the mess around on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do, do, do, do, do, do. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, in Paris. I'm Matt Rogers. And I'm Bo and Yang. And we're doing an Olympics podcast? Uh, yeah. We're hosting the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast. Watch every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympics

beginning July 26th on NBC and Peacock. And for the first time, you can stream the 2024 Paris games on the iHeartRadio app. And listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the early morning hours of September 6th, 2016, St. Louis rapper and activist Darren Seals

was found murdered. That's what they gonna learn. Own for death, own for nothing. Every day, Darren would tell her, all right, ma, be prepared. They are going to try to kill me. All episodes available now. Listen to After the Uprising, The Murder of Darren Seals

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On this episode of Betrayal, you're going to meet a survivor of male sexual assault. It's a Hollywood actor many of us have an infinity for, Anthony Edwards. If you watched ER in the 1990s or early 2000s, then you might have known him as Dr. Mark Green, and before that as Goose in the iconic film Top Gun. Pure, unadulterated rage,

anger that I'd never felt before. I wanted to take out a full page ad in Variety and say, you know, Dr. Green and Goose was assaulted by this man and have a wanted picture of him. ["Dreams of a New World"] I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal Season 3, Episode 7, 1 in 6. Justin Rutherford's betrayal of Tyler, his wife Stacey, and family opened my eyes to a whole new community.

It's men who are sexually abused and are carrying the trauma into adulthood. They are husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, and friends, and they have been largely silent and hurting. Some like Tyler are seeking a community. It's something he expressed in an earlier episode. There's no one that relates to you. earlier episode. There's no one that relates to you. You hit YouTube or Google and you know you're searching self-help videos or stuff related to your trauma and you're scrolling. There's not a lot of resources out there. We

found a resource that we thought Tyler should know about. It's called One and Six, an organization which helps male survivors through providing information and support resources. And the name denotes what research has shown that one in six men have experienced sexual abuse or assault, whether in childhood or as adults. So we arranged a meeting with the heads of one in six and Tyler. Stacey Tyler's mom was there too. It's huge.

and Tyler. Stacey, Tyler's mom, was there too. He's huge. We wanted to spend a day peeling back the layers of why it is so difficult for men of any age to seek help as victims of male sexual abuse and assault. Anthony Edwards is the chairman and national spokesperson for One in Six.org. I'm a professional pretender by trade. I've been an actor professionally since I was 16. Anthony has spent his career in the spotlight, but it wasn't until he was 52

that he came out of the shadow of abuse to tell his story. I was assaulted by my mentor, the man who had taught me a lot about theater and about art and was intimately involved with my love for acting. And as a result of the betrayal, I lived most of my life in fear, because my experience of having been assaulted as a kid set me up for being afraid and not trusting in people, places or things. Anthony is now a leading advocate for male sexual abuse survivors. One of the One in Six's co-founders also joined the discussion. My name is David Lisak.

I'm a clinical psychologist. I've spent my career working in the area of trauma and also violence. I've studied perpetrators and I've also studied primarily men who experience child abuse. I have spent the last 30-some years working in applied areas, training law enforcement and prosecutors. We wanted to give Tyler the opportunity to connect with someone who truly knows what he is dealing with. So we asked Anthony to share more of his story with Tyler. Men by nature minimize, deny, hide, and isolate. And that's the tragic result of what happens to people who were assaulted or traumatized as kids.

And I learned to survive by hyper-focusing. I think probably the reason why I worked so young and so hard is because that was the way to survive. That was the way out. Being an actor, achieve everything. The other flip side of that is that acting was something that I loved. It was really important to me before I met this person. And when this person came in and twisted it all, I still had that core of the joy of that. And that's what always I kept trying to reconnect to. So it reminds me of the fact that we can be damaged, we can be hurt, but that core of who we are is always there. And that's what recovery is about. That's what I've learned about recovery is that you're recovering the good.

You're not there to take away all the bad. When you were 52, what inspired you to start talking about this? What happened to you? Pure unadulterated rage, anger that I'd never felt before. The man who had been my perpetrator, been the perpetrator, we try not to say my because he's not mine. He is a perpetrator. Was back in the news 22 years before.

I had had the experience when I was 30 years old of being a new father, and I had run into him on a plane. And I said, hey, what you did was wrong. What you did to us as kids was wrong. And I confronted him. And he then spent about 20 minutes telling me as a walk from the plane about how it was the worst thing in his life, he'd gotten help, he no longer hurt children,

he'd felt remorse that he was healed and he was trying to lead a good life. And I bought it. In 52, when all of a sudden he was in the news, having been accused, I was so angry. I was so filled with rage. And I wanted to take out a full page ad in Variety and say, you know, Dr. Green and Goose was assaulted by this man and have a wanted picture of him.

Luckily, a friend took me and said, before you do that, why don't you go talk to this psychiatrist and start your journey of healing of what really happened to you when you were a teenager. So you almost turned that anger into purpose. I luckily did. And I think a lot of survivors don't. We've learned a lot from the Me Too movement. And there's a lot of women that were hurt and abused and they need to get together and get angry and shout out. My experience or our experience at One in Six is that a lot of men are already really

angry and they're already acting out. I asked Anthony how the trauma of his sexual abuse impacted important relationships. The same year that I disclosed was the same year that my marriage ended. The problems within that relationship were directly affected by my inability to be truthful and honest with myself and what my experiences were. So you'll see that when you talk to men in their 50s. They're at this crisis of looking at this because a lot of their life has exploded. The result of unprocessed trauma

will definitely manifest itself in unhealthy relationships. Tyler, what parts of Anthony's story resonate with you? A lot of it, having to like overachieve and just be super successful in life, having that desire to want to do something bigger than myself and like help others because of what I've been through and use my story for good.

At the end of the day, we've gone through the same thing. I can relate to them. I know you guys spoke a little bit in the green room, but can you give us a little bit, to the extent that you're comfortable, what happened to you? Yeah, so I was abused by my stepfather growing up, started around age nine to 10,

all the way up until right before I turned 16. He had assaulted one of my friends. And growing up as a kid, going through it, I didn't know that. It was terrible thinking I was all alone. And I'm not saying that it's good to know he did it to other people, but it let me know that I wasn't the problem, that this was just like a terrible man, and other people had felt that pain too. Again, not that that's a good thing,

but it makes you feel understood sometimes, like in some way. You learned so much, unfortunately, when you started uncovering these rocks, but the Predator in my case, very much worked with a group. We had a group of boys that were all into theater. We were his special group. So the grooming aspect, which you realize

that so much of this is about control and power and not, I mean, sex, yes, but the most important thing is the control and the manipulation and the power. And part of the silencing is the fact that you think, oh, well, I'm not being hurt as badly as Scott is. Scott's really getting the brunt of this. And oh, it's my fault that it's happening. So it's a way of keeping everybody silenced.

And then for me, I was always trying to bring friends over as much as I could, because it gave me a sense of safety. I thought this was only happening to me that he had something for me. I don't know why necessarily I didn't think like it was him. It was just he had something for me. Little did I know that I was bringing all those friends

into a dangerous situation because I wanted to be safe. And if someone would have told me, this is hurting all your friends and your family and you're bringing your friends right to it, I probably would have done it. That would have made me break my silence. Psychologist David Lisak heard something that didn't sit right with him.

I sniff a little guilt. Well, yeah, because you got like some friends who he had done stuff to. But who did it to him? To your friends? It was my stepdad at the time. Don't call him that no more. Yeah. I really don't want you to walk around with that guilt because it ain't yours. It's not your fault. I'd say that's probably like the worst thing of it all

to this day now, because I like worked on what my problems were, but not, I guess, that problem, because I thought it more so had to do with just feeling bad for those people, but more so it's feeling bad for how I went about it. Yeah, that kept me silent for a long time because my best friend Scott was the one who was repeatedly raped. And he was a gay man and he died of AIDS in 1994. My silence really weighed on the fact that I thought, my God, if I could have said something,

if I would have done something, would his relationship to sex and promiscuity have been different? Would Scott still be alive today? They make you feel responsible. And to this day, as David's pointing out, us sitting here, and here you are doing this heroic thing, there's still a part of you that's going,

fuck, why'd I bring my friends over? You know, that that's somehow your fault, and it is not your fault. And that's something we all work on and we carry. You're truly heroic and strong to be 19 and talking. Tyler's willingness to share his story at his young age really is remarkable. Anthony understands the significance and so does David. He isn't only an expert on child abuse and perpetrators. He's also a survivor.

I disclosed for the first time in Arizona in my 30s. I think the way in which the abuse that I suffered affected my relationships primarily was sort of a deep lack of trust. I was abused by somebody who was living in our house. He was a border in order to help cover the rent. We were pretty poor. And my mother was a refugee from Europe and this guy was a refugee from Asia,

from all World War II. And he would come into my brother and I's bedroom and he would wake me up by suffocating me. And then he would take me out of the room and between our bedroom and his room, there was a hallway about maybe eight feet. And in that eight feet, every night, I would be terrified knowing what is about to happen to me again.

And my brother is sleeping over there, ten feet from me. My mother is ten feet down the hall this way. And I'm alone. And nobody's protecting me. I was five years old. And that's where I lost my trust. You know, if my mother doesn't protect me, if my brother doesn't protect, I had no father, there's nobody's, I don't have trust in anybody.

And it took me a good chunk of my life to... Get out of that hallway? Yeah, to get out of that hallway? Yeah, to get out of that hallway. Exactly. Yeah. That moment affected everyone in the room. It was heartbreaking. Not only the awful abuse Steve had suffered, but the years it took for him to process and work through the trauma.

Anthony pointed out that Tyler was changing the pattern. You're setting an example not of success that it's all gone and done and we got rid of it. But the shame is less. You're not going to carry that. You're not going to carry what's not yours. You know? This was done to you, not because of you. Coming up, Dr. David Lisak explains how Tyler's experience was like living in a war zone. From KT Studios, the number one podcast, The Idaho Massacre is back. The new developments in the University of Idaho murder case. It was an unimaginable crime. In the early morning of November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students killed.

Police have no suspect and no murder weapon. A nationwide manhunt captivates the world. Moscow PD saying today they're now looking for a white Honda Elantra. Then a shocking arrest. There is now a suspect in custody. This is a PhD student in criminology. This is the guy. Will he be found innocent?

He claims he has an alibi. Or face death? Listen to season two of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Babe. Yeah, babe. Do you think they can hear us? Yeah, those are mics. Guys, we are back. Babe. Yeah babe.

Do you think they can hear us? Yeah, those are mics. Guys, we are back. We are so excited. It is season two of your favorite New Girl Rewatch podcast. We have got a new season, we got a new name, and we got a brand new episode every week,

starting July 2nd. Yeah, I am so excited for you folks to check out this mess around. When I say it's gonna get weird, I mean, it's gonna get weird. Just save it for the show. Okay, that's probably for the best. We've got some of your favorite people from the new girl universe.

We've got the creator and show runner, Liz Merriwether. We got the Max Greenfield, Olivia Munn. We also have some of your least favorites, like Jake Johnson. Lamorne. No, I'm just saying, if you're listing off your favorites, like he'd be- Lamorne.

He's still a favorite. Just, Hannah, what's up? We do have Jake Johnson though. Yeah. Listen to the mess around on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all new podcast, There and Gone.

It's a real life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son and in your your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are sitting with Stacey and Tyler as they speak with actor Anthony Edwards and clinical psychologist Dr. David Lisak.

Here's Anthony. To this day, I believe the perpetrator in my experience believed that he was doing it because that's what I needed, what I wanted, because there was a lack of that role model in my life. I didn't have a father figure. He was going to be the father figure. I didn't have a father figure. He was going to be the father figure. That exploitation of someone's desire is where they get in. Oh, you want to be loved? Oh, your dad's not around? Oh, you want this? You want to be part of a group? You want to have a career? You want to succeed?

And you learn that love is conditional. There's no such thing as unconditional love. If you're not experiencing it, that is love. Love is conditional. Yeah. So you don't trust, you don't trust. I say that's why I became a good actor, because I could go into a room and I could assess everything, because you need to know where you're safe,

where you're not, who you can trust, so you get really good at playing a room to know how to survive because surviving is the most important thing because when your spirits broken like that you feel like you'll die if you don't. Yeah, no, it's hard to find joy in things really. Like I would say I've worked past my depression and I've worked on myself, I've come very far, but it's hard to really find something I enjoy. Like I love watching a movie with my mom or my girlfriend, but like I couldn't do that alone. I wouldn't enjoy it. I don't know what I want to do. I know I want to do something big and important to make a change, but I have no clue really what

that is. It's interesting that you both felt this need to overachieve in your own ways. Where do you think that comes from? In my head, I like picture where I want my life to be. And like I just sometimes tell myself, I know I'll be happy when I have that dream job and I have that wife that loves me and that family that I wanted and that house that's paid off

and that maybe not sports car, but decent car. I'm not looking for anything crazy, but still that's what I want. But the irony of course, is that you're using all of these conditions to do it. I use techniques that I learned, which were conditional. Oh, if I do this, if I get this role, then that will take care of it. If I get this, I'll do it. I use techniques that I learned which were conditional. Oh, if I do this, if I get this role, then that will take care of it.

If I get this, I'll give it. If I find the right person, then I will have the perfect family. Like it was always looking ahead as opposed to right here and now. So I have to do all these things to get there. And that is a habit trail or a spinning wheel that is impossible to maintain your whole life. But as long as I was in the mindset of

this and this and this is gonna make me happy, it didn't work. It didn't work. Happiness is very hard to achieve when you're conditioned to have to do something to get love. Yeah, I live a lot in like what he was saying. You constantly tell yourself, oh, I'll be happy when I get this or as I'm approaching this, I'll be happy. And yeah, I'll frequently say that, but I've been trying to be better about it.

Anthony, as a child to learn that love is conditional, that's a really scary thing. Was it until you became a parent, did you unlock this unconditional love? It was directly related to being a parent. That's the miracle. Like, I found the strength to confront this, man. When you're a parent and you experience

that unconditional love, it changes you. With the stigma and the fact that men typically don't disclose until much later in life, could the number be actually? We know it is different. That's just what's been... I mean, David could speak to that. It's a notoriously difficult area to study because there's actually a couple of studies that have shown that even when you have documentary evidence

that a man was sexually abused as a child, and you then ask them later in life if they were ever sexually abused, the vast majority of those men will deny it. Some have lost the memory. Most probably are just not willing to respond. So as a researcher, I conducted many studies and found about one in six men were acknowledging that they had had some kind of experience that meets the definition of sexual abuse.

And I'm absolutely certain that it is only, you know, some fraction of the actual number. What the actual number is, I can't even guess. It's greater than one in six, that's for sure. The conversation about denial sparked a thought from Tyler's mom, Stacey. You even said, had it not been for the discovery of the cameras in our home, he intended to take it to his grave. I mean, that was just his thought. I mean, the plan was to get the hell out. I kept telling myself,

next year it'll stop because I'll be older. I'll look more like a man. And it never stopped. And I just kept telling myself I could push through high school. You know, it's important to understand that the intensity of Tyler's need for purpose, it's the same as soldiers coming back from war. The experience in a war zone is so intense. You're frightened all the time. You see death and it actually affects your brain. You know, your

brain gets kind of reset to live on edge and every second, every moment is charged with, you know, what if, what if, what if, and what do I have to do to survive this? When you live with the kind of daily fear that you lived with, you are in a combat zone. You know, it's the same thing. And it really recalibrates your brain and it takes really a long time to sort of recalibrate again, so that yes, you could

be in a situation where you are once again in that kind of a danger. But most of life isn't that way. It just takes a while to get to a point where your nervous system and your brain are kind of just a little bit more quiet. It's OK to just have a quiet day. You really were in combat, and you're coming out of it now. Stacy was sharing something with me this morning about one of her concerns for you. Do you want to share a little bit?

A huge concern for me is when I start to feel that something's not okay with you, you're kind of quieter or things like that, and you tell me that you're okay. You're trained for so long to be quiet and to lie to everyone around you about what's going on in your world and how you feel. But I worry that there are times where he's telling me he's okay and I'm still dealing with that child again who's lying to me.

You're bringing up just a really important part of all this too. Everybody's affected by this event, these traumatic events. Everybody who loves and cares about these individuals is affected. And in the same way that you have to give Tyler space for his change, he also has to, and you have to take the space for yourself as a parent to process what it is to feel that, oh my God, why didn't I do anything? How come I didn't protect?

And so you have to allow yourself your healing in this process because you can't only be good if Tyler's good. You have to be good unto yourself. But you can't make your happiness conditional on whether or not Tyler recovers. Yeah. Because he's going to and he is recovering. It's worthwhile to remember from time to time

that there's another part of the equation here. And that is that both of you were groomed. I've spent a lot of my career studying predators and grooming is an integral part of these predations and it's not just the direct victim who's groomed. We're in Boston here now and I was here during the 1990 Catholic clergy eruption of cases. I interviewed a number of both victims of John Gagan, one of the most prolific predators, and also the mothers of some of his victims. And Gagin was just a brilliant groomer. And he started by grooming mothers,

which gave him access to the children. And he would then pick which one of the children, mostly boys, because he understood that boys are less likely to disclose. So you were both victimized by that grooming process. And that's something that you are still coping with. Everybody can be groomed. Everybody.

What grooming is, is taking human trust and perverting it. It's almost impossible to detect it. And predators practice this. So they're not just doing this for the first time. They practice this over many, many years and they get better and better and better at it. So everybody is susceptible to it. You typically

hear from men that are much older than Tyler. Can you talk about the impact of a conversation that's starting with a 19-year-old on this public of a platform? What does that do to the overall conversation? Well, Tyler, let me turn a question to you. All right. Let's imagine that there's a 15-year-old boy who's in a situation like you were in. What would you say to him? Probably tell him to listen to the podcast.

Good start. I don't know. I'd probably tell him, it might seem like the end of the world, but it's not. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you it's going to be easy, but just like anything, you find ways to overcome it and it'll happen. It's possible. You just got to want it.

And OneInSix.org has tools to help. You can find not only therapists, you can find support groups, you can find peer support groups, you can find other survivors. What we are really focused on here is to confront and challenge the stigma that silences men so that young men like Tyler here who has the guts to come forward We appreciate what you're doing and we don't want you to be alone Like what he was saying men definitely minimize because I was talking to one of my buddies a while back and He was talking about how he had lost his virginity at like 12 and I was like yeah, no, that's That's sexual assault dude

Well, that's what you're doing me.. You're naming it, and you're just... Good for you. You're changing it. You're changing the world. But those simple conversations, that's what I also like to say too, is like, you don't have to be on a podcast to affect, you know. These are the normalizing conversation, and that's where the change happens. And you're doing it in a selfless way that is really, it's important and you will hear, I guarantee it. You will hear it because I know whenever I'm in a situation and there's a group

of 50 or 60 people and I'm sharing part of my story or whatever it is, one out of six of them are survivors. Coming up, we ask Anthony and Dr. Lisek how we can approach children who are holding back what has happened to them. From KT Studios, the number one podcast, The Idaho Massacre is back. The new developments in the University of Idaho murder case. It was an unimaginable crime. In the early morning of November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students killed. Police have no suspect and no murder weapon.

A nationwide manhunt captivates the world. Moscow PD saying today they're now looking for a white Hyundai Elantra. Then a shocking arrest. There is now a suspect in custody. This is a PhD student in criminology? This is the guy? Will he be found innocent? He claims he has an alibi. Or face death? Will he be found innocent? He claims he has an alibi.

Or face death. Listen to season two of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Babe. Yeah, babe. Do you think they can hear us? Yeah, those are mics. Guys, we are back.

We are so excited. It is season two of your favorite New Girl Rewatch podcast. We have got a new season, we got a new name, and we got a brand new episode every week, starting July 2nd. Yeah, I am so excited for you folks to check out this mess around. When I say it's going to get weird,

I mean, it's going to get weird. Just save it for the show. OK, that's probably for the best. We've got some of your favorite people from the New Girl universe. We've got the creator and show runner, Liz Merriwether. We got the Max Greenfield, Olivia Munn. We also have some of your least favorites, like Jake Johnson.

No, no, I'm just saying, like, if you're listing off your favorites, like, he'd be... He's still a favorite. He just... Hannah, what's up? We do have Jake Johnson, though. Yeah. Listen to the mess around on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all new podcast, There and Gone. It's a real life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their

truck and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire.

It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes he's innocent. But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As we continue our conversation with Stacey Tyler, Anthony Edwards, and clinical psychologist, Dr. David Lisak, we wanted to hear their advice on how to approach children who are afraid to share their abuse. How do we help them feel safe enough to disclose? It's a question that comes up all the time. How do we stop this from happening to kids? We normalize the conversation. We take the power of the stigma out of this by doing exactly what we're doing here today, so that that can role model for people to do it privately and quietly.

It's not about me going out and being public. It's about taking away the power which is done through secrecy and like breast cancer. Many, many women were dying of it because there was shame about even talking about it. When we started to normalize that conversation, the energy around it just lowered the numbers because that's all we're trying to do. We're not going to get rid of perpetrators. We're not going to get rid of this disease, the sickness of pedophilia. But what we are going to change is our reaction time to it and that place where a 12-year-old

or 13-year-old might be able to turn to a trusted aunt or uncle or brother or sister. I don't see how we can absolutely come up with a plan. Here's a plan or here are the rules, right? Follow these rules and it'll never happen in your family or never happen to your kids. But it's being willing to talk about this. There are a couple of big things that we could jump at right away right now and that's institutional protection. You shouldn't have a place where, you know, unvetered adults can go and spend three days in the woods with children. That's just not okay. And we accept these things because we're accepting institutional norms that need to be looked at. And institutions need to be held accountable,

especially when they serve children. And talking about it is really important. It's that simple thing of not calling it a wigwam or your horky dokey, whatever. It's a penis, it's a vagina. These are things on our body that we talk about. We don't have shame. We don't have embarrassment about it.

And I mean, it's that kind of thing, I believe, that will help. Saying it out loud to a safe and trusted person is the beginning of a new chapter. Literally that moment when they had that first conversation when they said, you know, something happened to me when I was a kid and someone listened and they were heard and they weren't hurt. That's all we're looking for those moments, because that's the beginning of recovery. And now we want to do is start people on their journey because everybody recovers differently. Isolation is the killer. No one gets out of this alone.

differently. Isolation is the killer. No one gets out of this alone. And finally, what advice do Anthony and Dr. Lisak have for Tyler? It's the beginning of a journey that's a good one. It gets better. It's worth it. It takes some time. You know, and that's what you're going to be able to share as a 19-year-old that we couldn't share as old guys. And there's one other thing I want to make sure you understand this. In all this time that it's going to take that we're telling you to really heal, you know, it's an ongoing process, but you know, it deepens you really does. Deepen you, you go through this process that you have already started on.

You're building yourself, you know, not your physical self, but who you are. And that gets bigger and stronger, and the trauma stays the same. And so the relationship between the size of that trauma and the size of you keeps changing. Until you'll find yourself as a full adult in your 30s or 40s and you realize that, you know, it's a much smaller part of you than it was. And in a weird way, the trauma has helped you grow. Yeah, it's true. Well, we just want to say that we appreciate you doing this for us. Thank you. This was huge.

On the next episode of Betrayal, Stacey goes back to the Berks County Courthouse for the final part of Justin Rutherford's criminal prosecution, where he answers for his plot to kill Tyler. I was prepared to testify. to kill Tyler. I was prepared to testify. If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, or you know someone who is seeking support, go to 1in6.org.

That's the number 1, I-N, number 6, dot org. Find a path to a happier, healthier future. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content news and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by

subscribing to our show on Apple podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Posted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Kerry Hartman. Also produced by Ben Federman and Trey Morgan. Associate producers are Kristen Mulcair and Caitlin Golden.

Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family, and to Anthony Edwards, Dr. David Lisak, and the entire 1 in 6 organization. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Zovecchio, editing support from Nico Aruca, the Trails theme composed by Oliver Baines, music Library provided by MIBE Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. From KT Studios, the number one podcast, The Idaho Massacre is back. The new developments in the University of Idaho murder case. It was an unimaginable crime. One house, four victims, only one accused. If this is true, then this guy is the real life Dexter.

Listen to season two of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all new podcast, There and Gone. It's a real life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire, but which victim was the intended target and why? Listen to There and Gone South Street

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guys, we are back. We are so excited. It is season two of your favorite New Girl Rewatch podcast. We have got a new season, we got a new name. We've got some of your favorite people from the New Girl universe, we've got

the creator and showrunner Liz Merriwether, we got the Max Greenfield, Olivia Munn. We also have some of your least favorites like like Jake Johnson. Lamorne. Hannah, what's up? We do have Jake Johnson though. Yeah. Listen to the Mess Around on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We all know what that music means. It's time for the Olympics in Paris. I'm Matt Rogers and I'm Bo and Yang. And we're doing an Olympics podcast? Uh, yeah. hosting the two guys five rings podcast. Watch every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympics beginning July 26 on NBC and Peacock. And for the first time,

you can stream the 2024 Paris games on the iHeartRadio app and listen to two guys five rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In the early morning hours of September 6, 2016, St. Louis rapper and activist Darren Seals was found murdered. That's what they gonna learn. Own for death, own for nothing. Every day Darren would tell her, all right, Ma, be prepared. They are going to try to kill me. All episodes available now.

Listen to After the Uprising, the Murder of Darren Seals on the iHeartRadio app, Apple You tried to kill me.