Bittersweet Infamy - #108 - Satan's Last Stronghold

Episode Date: September 15, 2024

Guest host Erika Jo Brown tells Josie and Taylor about the evangelical Christian fervour that led American missionary John Chau to contact the voluntarily isolated people of North Sentinel Island—with deadly results. Plus: get to know Erika Jo with a harvest-fresh game of Bitter or Sweet?

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we share the stories that live on in infamy. The strange and the familiar. The tragic and the comic. The bitter. And the sweet. Josie, that is an awfully fetching flannel shirt, overalls, and pitchfork you're sporting. What's that about? I got these from the back of the closet. So that's where we leave them every year.

Right. I was surprised they were dry cleaned. I didn't know that. I wanted you to have a nice surprise. Pastor Josie did that for future. Well, okay, sure, Pastor Josie. Oh no, that was you, oh thank you. No, no, it was Pastor, let's just give it to Pastor.

Anyways, point being, we are coming weekly to your earbuds for the bittersweet harvest. Josie and all your natty farmer duds, why don't you tell them what the bittersweet harvest. Josie and all your all your natty farmer duds, why don't you tell them what the bittersweet harvest is? Bittersweet harvest is four weeks of back to back infamous. To back to back. Bittersweet episodes. Fuck yeah.

We had one last weekend. Now we have this week. That was the back. This is the tobacco. And then, yes, yes. We're tobacco farming basically. That's what's happening. Yeah. As part of our celebration of only the wheat of infamy,

no chaff, chaff-free, chaff-less, assless chaffs, the whole thing. We are bringing to you a finely curated selection of guests and I believe when we went out to the field this morning, we saw a little shank of hair popping out from under the ground. So we grabbed onto it like a carrot, like a root vegetable and we yanked up.

Who did we yank up? It was my pubis. Oh no. Oh, I put it back. Whose pubis was it, Josie? Erica Joe Brown. Coming in hot, talking about genitals, like first thing. It's like you were here the whole time. This is so good. How are you Erica Jo? Hello, welcome. Hi. Hi. It is autumnal here in Philadelphia.

I don't know how autumnal it is in Houston, but when you were describing Josie's flannel and pitchfork, it sounded like she was going to go lynch the beast in Beauty and the Beast. It sounded like she was a French townsfolk. She needs six eggs, but it's too expensive. I was silly girl number one. Were you? In a camp production. And my mom, she just always referred to me after that as silly

girl number one as if I, it was like an achievement. It was. I was going to ask, was there any competition between the silly girls? No. Well, we were too silly for that. It was camp. It was more. It was all a bit of camp.

Yeah. Exactly. This is so exciting. It's so nice to have Erica Jo Brown on the podcast. And you might recognize this name, dear listener, because Erica Jo is a monthly subscriber, a monthly contributor. This, too, could be yours. That's right.

That's sweet. Yeah. OK. All right. I've been meaning to address this, because the edges just so someone doesn't seem like, I was asked to guest before I became a subscriber. Yes, let's make sure this is clear.

It's not a pay to play situation. Listen, we accept all forms of payola here at Bitter Sweet Infamy. Sure. Grease our palms, we're happy. This is true. Yeah yeah you have been on the on the list of guests and it's more just like scheduling stuff that made it that we are only recording your episode at this later date silly girl stuff

silly girl silly girl number one also we had to we had to wait for her to ripen underground ripen underground is that what they do? Okay, yeah, I guess. Yeah, I mean, they're not, they don't listen. We're podcasters, not farmers. So, Jo, what did she tell us a little bit about EJB? If the listeners want to find out more about Erika Jo, what's her deal? What is, what makes this woman so special? They're saying, explain. Oh, Erika Jo Brown is a poet from Philadelphia. Are you are you from Philadelphia now? No, I'm from Long Island. And you should remember this because there was an a rat a rat a rat a rat a rat whatever the hell you accuse me of being from Staten Island at one point.

Same fucking thing. Immediate letter to the editor. I know. I. So sorry. Same fucking thing. Immediate letter to the editor. I know. I'm so sorry. Staten Island is built on a trash heap. I was gonna say. Long Island, the trash came after. I'm just impressed that someone from Long Island

knows how to write and post a letter, that's all. Oh shit. I didn't even have to do that. That's not even in play right now. I know how to like bedazzle things. Ooh, at an Olympic level, I'm sure. Yeah, I know all my nail shapes. Perfect.

Okay, so you know exactly what you're doing. Don't let me come for you. You've got the priorities straight. Yes. No, no, you can't. You can't come for Erica Jo Brown. We're gonna have to do a bittersweet Long Island. Long Island, take us there.

A little stent on Long Island. Buddafuku, I think would be the Joey Buddafukos from Long Island. That's it. The Hamptons are on Long Island. Yes. Hamptons, yeah. Technically. Yes, we can talk about Quagg, the Forgotten Hampton.

We can do it all. Gatsby was written about my general eggs, West eggs, East eggs. Oh, oh, okay. My ova. Oh, wow. Damn. Your origin story. Damn. Yeah. Kajow is the author of the book I'm Your Huckleberry, which don't get confused because that's also the name of Val Kilmer's memoir. But this is a book of poems. What happened there? I had the title first, and then my mom was trying to go after Val,

even though it is his line of dialogue from the movie Tombstone. Okay, so that explains. You've got it as like a Val Kilmer illusion, and I guess so does he, to a degree. That makes sense. So, yeah. So unlike in this podcast, I did not write a letter. Yeah, letter to the-

It's symbiotic. That's a symbiotic situation. And I met Erica Jo when you were living here in Houston where you received your PhD in creative writing and literature at the University of Houston. You're the one. Yeah, I earned it. I earned it. Doctor, wait, Doctor Erika Jo Brown.

Doctor Brown, yeah. Paging Doctor Brown. Yes. And if I had done the paperwork when I married BJ, I could have been Doctor Brown Love, but you know, I'm not trying to do paperwork or hyphenates. Or anal, so... I'm like, ooh, but it's worth it for the gag! Dude, we had this conversation when Mitchell got married to Josie about like, is it worth changing your name for the gag?

Mitchell Mitchell. And I think we landed on no. Or I think we landed on no in that none of you seem to have done it. How about that? Yeah, I think it's a paperwork thing. That's a tricky. The joke instinct and the paperwork instinct run against each other, so it's hard to bury them. They cancel each other out, yeah. It's hard to do a bunch of bureaucracy for a bit.

It's just not that fun. But I remember meeting Erica Jo and thinking, oh, she's so cool, She'll never be my friend. And you were right. Luckily enough. And she's here to fucking end you on the podcast today. No, but ever since then, Erica Joe and I, we've hung, we're tight, we're close. I love it. And there's so many, like, I was trying to think of all these little snapshots that can display

in like this little photo album of all the reasons why I love Erica Jo Brown so much and A few of them float to the top Remember once that's the week. That's the week. We're talking about the week. I went harvesting. I was out in the field. Hey, I Remember being at your house Erica Erica, and at this point, you had Watson was like starting to come into the house. So Watson's a neighborhood cat who Erica Joe lovingly lured into her love. And you had, I think, I think it must have been Asta. You had Asta curled up against your side over here and then

Watson came in and curled up on your other side and you were just kind of basking in all this pet love and you looked up and you were like, see girls, you can have it all too. So I've said this before that I think my highest calling is a piece of cat furniture. Like when he's on me and BJ's like, don't you think you should like get up and like brrrr likey. And I'm like, no, I believe that I'm serving, like this is what I was put here. I should have a little rope bracelet on so that they can paw at it. Yeah.

And yeah, your nails are in the pet budget because they're good for, for scratching. So they were in the mental health budget for a while. Yeah. Move it around. Move it around. Talk about paperwork. Yeah.

So it's like, Jerry man do that shit. Yeah. I'm just trying to sustain life over here. So, yeah. And I, I love, I think we were talking on the phone once. And we were talking about going and doing something. And you're like, you know, I don't really

want to go and do that. And then you kind of had this beautiful, I described your mind as glorious in the other episode that got cut. In the found footage. But this glorious thought, and you were just thinking aloud to yourself, you're like, you know, it's kind of witchy to say no to stuff.

I'm gonna lean into that. It's really witchy. And I'm like, yes, it is. Oh my God. I love that. I love that so much. I love it. And Erica, Joe and I are also,

we co-write for the blog, Sack Lunch Bunch, which is not actually a public-facing blog. It's just a movie group that we started. How many movie groups you in now, sweetheart? This is the first, this was the original. Yeah, this is the OG. This is where we learned to synchronize.

How did we get started with the Sack Lunch Bunch blog? I think part of it was COVID, and we were so used to kicking it with each other. And then I was like, have y'all heard of this thing called WhatsApp? Because it's synchronous. It just got to Texas in 2020. Yeah. And so we did that and we decided no consensus early on. You have to be dictator for the day.

Because there are else you can never decide on a movie. Fuck yes. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. It's just a great site for creativity. It's fertile grounds. Yeah. Get really high on a Friday and watch a movie and then text each other about it. Yeah. I'm like, have you guys seen Ace Ventura? It totally holds up. You what is it that you particularly hate in movies again? Oh, I don't like when there's like an exhibition of talent that people within the reality of

the movie are supposed to be impressed by. Because I'm like, fuck you. That is such a setter. Someone sings, you know, and people, oh, wow. You know, it's so manipulative. Don't tell me what to be impressed by. I can't unsee it. I can't unsee it.

Right, slow clapping. Don't you tell me. I swear to God, I only have so much free time. It's fair. That's very fair. This is a great actually, what do you like, what do you don't like? We found a segue? Yeah, because for my little Mimphemus that I am bringing today, I realized that I love and know Erika Jo and I want all of our

listeners to know and love Erika Jo. So we're gonna play a little game. It'll be Bitter or Sweet. Is it bitter or sweet? Because the name of the podcast is Bitter Sweet Infamy. Oh, supervise. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I'll make sure no one gets injured. How about that? I'll be the referee. Okay. I was thinking when she said either bitter or sweet, I was like, but what about when it hurts so good? Like, you know, so maybe you should watch someone doesn't get hurt. There's a possibility here. There can be a scale if you need it. Bitter sweetness is a spectrum.

Yes, exactly. If you want to find something in between, but you have to state your rationale. Of course. Always. Always. Yeah. Are you ready for your first one? Of course. Of course. Always. Always. Yeah. Are you ready for your first one, Aka-cha?

Mm-hmm. Bitter or sweet Instagram accounts where people speak as their pet. I knew it was going to be this. It's quote unquote the pet's account and they speak as the pet. Thoughts. All right. I sort of also felt like it was going this direction. Love it.

Okay. Really? Make your thing about your pets There's someone from work. I think she was like I have an account with my dog, you know, do you want you know? I don't know. She just brought it up I immediately followed it and then she was asked if I want to follow her personal account and I was like no Like that is an instant decline. I just want to know about your dog Milky Fantastic name. I know That seems to have divided the crowd into bitter and sweet. I mean.

It better be a white dog or a dog that can't stop last dating, I guess. Cause those are, what else do we do in here? It could be both, but it's definitely white. Okay. Next one. Staten Island. We got a little taste of this. Stop it.

But let's get the real stuff. They're separated by the bosom of New York Harbor. Okay. I'd like everyone to know. The milky bosom of New York Harbor. Um, Staten Island is technically a borough of New York City, whereas Long Island is not. Okay.

And I will say this for Staten Island, there is a ferry, it is free, and it does serve alcoholic drinks. Okay. That sounds pretty sweet to me yeah that's more about the ferry but like i mean stan island i'm neutral about it's neutral no no not okay no i disagree joseph common during your game we're gonna need an answer he's the referee come down on the side please if it wasn't there then this the ferry wouldn't exist Come down on a side, please. If it wasn't there, then the fairy wouldn't exist.

And I feel good about the fairy. The island justifies the fairy. Yeah, so. Got it. I'm hearing sweet, this sounds sweet. You sound like you're having a real hard time getting there, but it sounds like you're leaning sweet. I would say that is accurate. Okay, okay.

Next, September. How do you feel about September? The month in which we find ourselves. Is it or is it the Earth, Wind and Fire song about which my in-laws and I found are very few areas of common ground. I was in Iowa, Long Island girl in Iowa visiting with my in-laws and we were sort of like what should we watch?

And you already know my opinion about choosing things by consensus. It doesn't work. To be by consensus, it doesn't work. Direct democracy and choosing doesn't work. But we were trying to find something and then we lit upon like a Earth, Wind and Fire concert. And so the Reverend Love and I were like, yeah,

we were both into it. So. Your father-in-law, the Reverend Reverend Love. Yeah. Uh huh. Wow. It mends generational gaps, perhaps. Right. Yeah. Generational geographic, like all kinds of things. So September, sweet. September. What's the date in the song? The 21st. 21st. Night of September. Okay. September September good. I like that you grad school that one Okay define this term duvet covers go I Also like duvet covers, although I'm deprived because BJ just needs like a thin little quilt.

He's like, I just want a thin little quilt. Separate blankets. The answer is separate blankets. That is the answer? I know that we have been, let me take over. We have been indoctrinated by years of you need to be in the same bed with the same comforter or you're not in love with each other. And the fact is people sleep differently from one another. You think big blanket would be on board

because they can sell more blankets this way. People sleep differently from one another and it has nothing to do with how in love they are. Your bodies just regulate things differently. I think you should get a second blanket. Go ahead about your game. No, I agree. I handled that one Josie. Yeah, you solved it. You did the policy recommendations. Let the think tank get the report back to you.

And you know, I think there is a Scandinavian, because Scandinavian like linens are very particular and like, like fresh minded. And I think there is a way in which you have two different covers for two different people in a bed. Chelsea Rose does this in her bed. And I, some way that you can like layer two smaller blankets in such a way that when you make the bed, it looks like it's a full. But why does it even need to look like that?

Why are we fronting? What is this lie that, God forbid they see that we have two blankets, they'll think that we don't fuck. Who cares? We should have more than as many blankets, as many beds just pointing at our bed. Do you recognize this bed, Erika Jo? Yeah.

Hey. I don't wanna get too, I just feel like it's so easy to get weird with that. I know. Is that Erika Jo's old bed? Yeah. I don't want to get too, I just feel like it's so easy to get weird with that. Is that Erica Joe's old bed? Yeah. Super glad. It never feels weird, like when we went and got it from BJ, that didn't feel weird when we set it up. It doesn't, but you're right, when we like walk in here and we're like,

this is Erica Joe and BJ's old bed. People are like, uh, okay. I have the blanket Josie got fucked in when she was like 16 and I talk about it that way. and we're like, this is Erica Jo and BJ's old bed. People are like, okay. I have the blanket Josie got fucked in when she was like 16 and I talk about it that way. That's true. I remember that actually. Like that's a thing from this podcast I learned and have like retained. You'll never let it go.

I still have the virginity blanket. I'll drape it on myself right now. I'll walk around like this is my own private kingdom with this blanket as a cape, okay? Okay, next, bitter or sweet. Are we ready? Okay. Philly cheesesteaks.

Oh my God, girl, you're about to be in trouble. You're gonna be in trouble over here. Do it, bring the bridge. Well, you're a fresh Philean, Philadelphian. That doesn't, Philadelphian, yes. Philadelphian? Or like a Philly, which makes me

feel like a small horse. That's fine. Like a lady horse. They're trash, they're garbage, they're a bad sandwich, they're a bad sandwich. They like, even here they're like, we prioritize like no seasoning in the meat. And also like you must use Cheez Whiz and that is the OG. Like it has to be like rank American white people shit.

It has to be the yeah, it is a terrible sandwich and you can't even get around like the first time I had one here I got a chicken one and I was like, this is also bad. So Good don't like them. They're bitter. I feel bitter about I was about to be like, oh, I'm so I like everything Look at you. You found I'd like all these things and then but there are a few things that I'm like, I hate that I know that'll be my response to many things. I hate that. Your person in the world, come on, yeah.

Balance, baby. If you liked everything, you'd fucking snap. You'd lose it. Okay, let's see how this one goes. Croc charms. How do you feel about croc charms? Bitter, sweet. Those are called, those have a name.

They're called like gibbies, I think. Jiblets? I think it's giblets. Jibbits, gibbits. Like think it's giblets gibets gibets Like I said giblets. Yeah gibets. It's jib Bitz. Tm if we're gonna be doing crocs spawncon, which this is let's get it, right? I Like too muchness and I feel like this falls in the realm of too muchness Yeah, so it's like I like you can put a little extra shit Yeah, put a little put a little extra shit. Yeah.

Put a little bedavling on it. You do that. You go ahead and do that. I agree. Yeah. Leopard print it up. I see. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Last one. Ooh. Canada. Bitter or sweet? So it's sweet. I mean, and I don't know if I, I don't know what my response would have been.

Let's not get into hypotheticals, but- If I weren't here or- No, Beige and I went to Niagara Falls this summer. For lovers I heard. The good side of it, the Canadian side. And we like farted around Toronto for a while, and the border guard was a hot guy. Yeah, I mean, so I was like, hey, welcome to Canada. Like it was, I liked it. They had a public pool. We went to all the things I love. A public pool.

We do have public pools in Canada, at least one. Yeah, there's one in Toronto. There is one that I went to. The Toronto pool, yeah. I liked that one. It seems lovely. Thank you. We try. We try to look nice for you. All right, that's all I got. Yeah, I generally like things. Yeah, that seems to be the case. Yeah, yeah, sweet. The world is sweet when you're wearing Erica Jo glasses. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not Philly cheesesteak. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't even have crocs on which to put charms, but I'm like, fucking A! Do you? Like, it's not hurting me.

Yeah, I don't know. Mitchell has a pair of crocs and recently got some croc charms. Jibbits. They're called jibbits. I refuse. We're refusing to acknowledge that. Get with the time. Quit. This is... You need to move forward and stop looking back, okay? We've picked an infamous beauty for this month's episode of the Bittersweet Film Club. It's only the 2019 Cat-tastrophe, Caps, starring Judi Dench, Jennifer Hudson, Ian McKellen, Idris Elba, Taylor Swift, and more. Now you know that even with our perennial special guest Mitchell

Collins, we couldn't match up to the all-star cast of Cats, so we had to call in some reinforcements in the form of friend of the podcast, Ramon Esquivel. What should have been a highlight of the film instead becomes this moment where I, and I'm sure every other audience member, is like, holy shit, look what they did to Jennifer Hudson. You can look forward to the Film Club discussion of that and our upcoming discussion on 2017 sports biopic, I, Tonya, over at ko-fi.com. That's k-o-h-i-f-i.com slash bittersweetinfamy. Become a monthly subscriber and we'll see you at the movies. where each week we talk about what we're watching. And examine our favorite pop culture moms up close

to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn, and grow with us as we look for the best tips. And maybe a few what not to do's from our favorite fictional moms. From Good Morning America and ABC Audio. Pop culture moms, find it wherever you get your podcasts. I've been so looking forward to an Erika Jo story. And I should tell you, Taylor, Erika

Jo gave me a few ideas like months ago, but I don't know what story she's about to tell. Interesting. What is your interest in uncontacted people, uncontacted tribes? Okay. Right. If any. Right. If any. Also known as Indigenous peoples in voluntary isolation. Got it. That doesn't... Okay. Involuntary, but... Involuntary. No. They are voluting. They are like they are in voluntary isolation. Okay, okay. In isolation voluntarily.

See, this already opens up the problem with maybe that phrase is just to scan it with your ear. It can be tricky. Yeah, this is true. And isolation is often a misnomer because they are in like people's tend to be in contact with their neighboring peoples, just not like whatever the power structure. Karly Or they're in contact with their community, doesn't mean isolation. Kite Yes. And as a matter of fact, I was thinking about the story as I was being like, I want to make some weed brownies for my neighbor, but I don't know if that's,

cause outside at like 7 a.m. smoking, and I was like, let me help you so you don't have to do that at 7 a.m. I'm going to give you an Ed Bull. That's so sweet. Cause I feel like I am, you know, I personally can feel very isolated, but then the people in the communities

are not actually isolated as you were. Yeah. Anyway, I'll talk more about that in a minute. No, I got what you mean. I got what you mean. In terms of my own familiarity, there's a couple of high profile stories, I would say that I am somewhat familiar with,

but I largely mostly just end up feeling bad for the relevant people because of all the attempts to contact them, usually. Right, right, right. So the evidence you see for these people is usually, it's like aerial, you know, like drone footage, photos, or like people shaking like sticks and you're like, oh wow. Uncontacted people. So they're contacted typically through colonial powers who want something like natural resources,

lumber, farmland, oil, or you know. To convert you to Catholicism? I'm against that. So this is about evangelicals. I think I might know what you've got, uh, sailing toward me, but I'll zip my lip until the big reveal. How about that? Good, because, okay, I hope you do, because sometimes I'll bring this up to people and be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. How about that? Okay, I hope you do, because sometimes I'll bring this up to people and people will be like, I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm like, but it is the most interesting thing to have happened.

Yeah, right, so a lot of this is in the Amazon. You'll have uncontacted pupils, you know, and some reasons sometimes why they're contacted, people just want some land to traffic cocaine through, you know, commercial development there, which has obviously decimated people through disease and poaching. And the Amazon, at least one of the examples is a man who was known as the man in the hole.

He died in 2022. If you're familiar with this, yeah, he was the last surviving member of his family and tribe. They don't know, people don't know what language he spoke, but they do know that he would make all these temporary huts and have giant holes next to them. And people were like, Oh, maybe it's for food storage. Or like, maybe it's spiritual. People don't know the man, the man of the halls. And then there are several in the type of Indonesian type area. Michael Rockefeller was of that fortune family disappeared because he went to go collect art in Papua New Guinea. Oh, another extractive situation.

Sort of disappeared. Right. Indiana Rockefeller. Exactly, exactly. And people are like, well, we just, we don't know what happened to him. Although... He fucked around and found out, it sounds like. He definitely found out that you can't just be like, knock, knock, knock.

Gimme, gimme. Yeah, gimme your art. Artifacts. Yeah right artifacts. Um so this story we're going to a tiny island in the northern area of the Indian Ocean. Okay. So it's like between India and Thailand an archipelago called the Andaman Islands. The Andaman and Nicobar Islands, which are, you know, hundreds of islands. And most specifically, we're looking at North Sentinel Island, which is five miles long and about four miles wide. And I looked it up because I was like, that's pretty small.

Its area is equivalent to Manhattan, which I guess you can fit a lot of people there, but it does seem small. How many long islands estimate it for us, please? Long Island is truly a state of mind, so it depends. Ah. It depends. It's an area of dense forest. There's evidence of giant terrestrial crabs.

No, thank you. As well as something that this podcast loves, some wild boar. It's true. You know what? We've, we've, we're familiar with a boar too. A boar too. And so in this case, the wild boar, it makes people wildly enthusiastic because it's an indication of good stewardship because mostly if you're on a tiny island and there are some

boars, you're going to hunt it to extinction. But these folks haven't. We don't know, mostly we don't know about the Sentinelese. People are like, there's somewhere between 50 and 200 of them. And they were maybe there for 60,000 years. Right. But we don't know that because they want to be left the fuck alone. They want to be left alone. If you Google it, you get one of those blank things that you are, the Google Earth. It's like you get one of those like, fuck you things. They couldn't send the Google car over. They couldn't send the Google car over to take the headshots.

And another connection with this podcast is that the Andamanese were potentially an inspiration for the Skull Islanders of King Kong, the King Kong cult. Interesting. Interesting. That scans, yeah, in terms of like sensitivity. Read insensitivity in cultural depictions of quote unquote tribal peoples, right? Exactly. Exactly. But also it is 30 miles west of a,

it's over the water, but it's 30 miles west of a city, which is Port Blair, with a population of 140,000 people. So they've managed to stay uncontacted more or less or isolated, in voluntary isolation for a while, but how long will that be able to? Well, we'll see. Especially as global warming isn't fantastic for the islands of the Indian Ocean. That's right.

And these people survived the 2004, there was a massive tsunami in 2004 in the Indian Ocean. They survived it. Holy shit. Yeah, they are survivors. The city of Port Blair, just fun fact, which is like the administrative head of the Andaman Islands, was a former British penal colony. Here we go.

And one of the early, early structures that was a panopticon. So scary. Scary panopticon. So the Andaman Islands is technically a territory of India and the area is patrolled by their Navy but the Indian government respects their wishes for self-government. And in my notes I wrote, this is a Republican wet dream of self-determination. Even though there's a lot of things that probably aren't in line with that. We know that they are in voluntary isolation because they shoot arrows at anybody that comes near.

So they shoot arrows at boats, they shoot arrows at- It's more than an implication. At low-flying planes, they're like, get the fuck away. From their perspective, almost every encroacher to their island has hunted them, or is one way to think about it, has hunted them, captured them, measured them as specimens.

They're like, no more. Also, if it really is these folks that are on this small island, they have a finite amount of resources. There's a lot of reasons to not welcome people. And historically supported ones, you go back in time. When has letting a bunch of colonizers onto your island ever been good, ever?

And so there are some other people in the archipelago who have let people come in. And for instance, there was a people's called the Great Andamanese, which sounds like Adam adam and eve which is a whole other thing because people think that these are like uncorrupted edens and we are going to get into the bible too but um that they have disappeared the verb is weird because you don't want to say gone extinct because that feels like i don't know We're talking about a bird. Exactly. They're not birds. Right. Right.

Or the Ongay, who are now confined to small reservations. Oh, that sucks. They have less friendly neighbor relations, but when they did, they saw what was going down and they know that, you know, white people are purveyors of disease. Yeah. Too true. So it is illegal to force contact with the Sentinelese. Cool. They have a three mile exclusion zone that you're not supposed to go into. And the Indian government

will not prosecute Sentinelese for killing people who venture ashore. Okay. They just don't play. They don't mess. They're like, again, about fuck around and find out. They're like, don't do it. Just don't. Yeah. Yeah. Don't just don't do it. Which of course is we've talked about so many times in the podcast, the taboo makes it more tempting for any. Yeah. It's like an erotic quest to annoy these people. We need to be the ones to make contact. Oh wait, why are they shooting at us? Because they've shot at everybody who's done this for decades. In 1981, a freighter ran aground. It was immediately surrounded by Sentinelese islanders and the crew got airlifted out. The crew was airlifted. Yeah, they radioed out. And there's later

evidence that metal salvage from the ship was used as iron tips on sentinelese arrows and spears. So, you know, it's not like some people are like, oh, it's a Stone Age people. And no, it's... They're being protected. They adapt to things. They're sophisticated and petty. Yes! Which, like, I guess that's part of the allure for me. Like, saying no is richie. You see a little bit of yourself saying no is richie.

Saying no is richie. Saying no is rich bit of yourself there. Yeah, saying no is richie. Saying no is richie. And they are very clearly saying no. They're saying no. They're saying, stay the fuck away. We do not consent, no thank you. Um, in 2006, a couple of fishermen sort of like, they're apparently drunk, I don't know, they wafted over there, they were killed.

I'm gonna say that's a little sad. They were drunk, that was an accident. RIP. Well, but drinking is a choice. Oh no. Okay, okay, Dr. Brown. Unless it's not. Unless it's not. Unless it's not, yeah.

Unless it's not. Unless it's not, okay. This is about the death of a 26-year-old Christian missionary named John Chow in 2018. Which brings us to the other primary reason for contacting uncontacted people that Taylor knew immediately, which is... Converting.

Evangel. I don't know how to say it. Evangelism? Evangelism? Evangelism, evangelism. Evangelism, that's what it is. That's what it is. Evangelism. That's what it is.

I lost it. I had no idea. I know this will shock you for a progressive New Yorker that I am culturally Jewish and that is like the extent of it. Evangelism. Right. Okay. We're all learning.

John Chow was born in Alabama. Oh. He is the son of Linda, who is a white mom and a church activist and father Patrick who is a psychiatrist who immigrated from China during the Cultural Revolution. Okay. And Patrick will come up a few times because he he's an interesting guy. He left during the Cultural Revolution. He's like, I'm not into indoctrinating people. And yet, I'm yet I actually have a lot of respect for Patrick. Okay, good. Because the day after John's body was discovered, he put an Instagram post that was like, I forgive, you know, I do not hold any grudge and sentinelese.

He said, quote, extreme Christianity led to his son's quote, not unexpected death. Like he was pretty clear eyed and lucid about this whole thing. Oh wow. Okay. So it sounds like, wow, interesting. Really, really interesting. The nuances of it all. Yeah. Yeah. And you have discussions with his son about it while this was sort of leading up and he actually feels like he was in a documentary produced by National Geographic and he said, the reason why I'm in this is to benefit parents whose kids may be wandering towards extremism or the romance of colonial exploration.

Wow. He sounds like he's really got his head screwed on. He has all the right words. Yeah, his calling was based on a fantasy with a hidden imperialist agenda. Like he knew what was what. He sounds like very maybe like both quite emotionally and book smart kind of intelligent. He's really sussed out lucidly like you say the components of the situation to whatever degree. Right, right. And I feel like so often Christian fundamentalism is underrepresented as a domestic terrorist group. Yeah, this is true. Yeah, vote November, everyone, if you are able.

Patrick, he went to med school on an army scholarship. This is the dad, Patrick. At dad, Patrick, at Oral Roberts University. Ooh, so what can you tell us about that for our non-American listeners who might not understand the significance or our American listeners who are just not doctors. What can you tell them?

So Oral Roberts University is a Christian evangelical school. I'll tell you a little bit about, actually I'm gonna return to that when I talk about John's experience because he wanted following his father's footsteps and also attending oral Roberts. And so I know more about it from this time period.

Can I just interject and say that it's really fucked up to name a Christian man Oral because his wife is never getting any. I mean, could I? And that's just the sad part. I couldn't agree more. Like a hardcore evangelical, like Oral Roberts isn't, I'm not talking about the lay Christian,

but Oral Roberts wasn't abnormal. Abnormal. Noral, really. While we're talking about his family, an opportunity to acknowledge that, like his family is still alive. John's family. Yeah.

You all always cover things with such sensitivity. I hope so. We try. Maybe that's all in the editing, but I wanted to have a moment and be like, I am empathetic too. No, of course. Well, I think, no, the point that you make is well taken. When we make these, you literally never know when you put something on the internet who's going to listen to it. So it behooves you not to be weird rubberneckers and to like actually kind of come correct in whatever way you can.

It doesn't mean that we can't have jokes and it doesn't mean that we can't bring levity to the discussion of pretty much anything, because that's life, but we try to be respectful. And so thank you for bringing that lens. Okay, and now I'm gonna shit on, no, okay. Dude, that's the hard part, is that you then have to shit on it right away, or make the awkward tonal transition and it's brutal as hell.

Enjoy. And just for the record also, John has two siblings who followed, um, their father Patrick's footsteps became doctors, their disability specialists who work with veterans. But John took a different path. Like you, doctors like you. Doctors like me. Without borders, doctors without borders.

I'm like, ah, what's a slam rhyme? Okay. John born in Alabama to these parents, raised, this was also something that I wanted to bring on to this podcast, in the Cove. He went to Vancouver Christian Academy or Van City. I don't know of it. They called it. No, it's not a place you frequent. They don't. They're not calling you to guest speak.

The closer that I get to the Christian Academy, the more it just burns, like ah, ah. I start taking, start taking like two HP of damage for every couple steps I take, you know what I mean? This is where he went to school. Got it, got it. In high school, he actually started an accountability group with a couple other boys

To not like porn. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's a thing dude. That's a thing when they said accountability group. I was like for homework Yeah, I didn't really know I was like for a poor We're giving each other team viewer passwords and we can see each other's best pops kind of shit Yeah, and so they interviewed one of his friends that was in this group and he was like we were all looking at porn other team viewer passwords and we can see each other's desktop kind of shit. Lord, yeah. And so they interviewed one of his friends that was in this group and he was like, we were all looking at porn, but John wasn't.

Oh. Oh, he really took it seriously. Well, he made the group. Yeah. Come on, let's get, this man is about to get fucking brutally killed. Let's give him something. He made the group, poor guy.

He started an accountability group, took mission trips to Mexico. This is his high school life. Then he also attended Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma. Okay. Go Pods. Fun fact about O-R-U, which I mean, I don't even want to use that because it makes it feel like fun and flirty.

Like, I just want to keep calling it oral Roberts so we know oral Roberts is pretty fun for me that's true oral your Robert yeah exactly damn well a year before um John's death uh oral Roberts was granted an exception to title nine allowing them to legally discriminate against lIA plus on religious grounds. Good. We shouldn't be there. It sucks. I know. Dude, straight up. Straight up. That's the best thing. I feel bad for people who are like, fucking, I'm in the closet, but I have to go to like Brigham Young University because I live in fucking Utah and I'm a Mormon and that's what we do. I feel bad for people in that situation. Don't make me go to fucking Oral Roberts because my fucking mom wants to send me there to straighten me up, dude. I want to, it's like, don't ask, don't tell. I kind of feel the same. Like it's great that we're

equal. I don't want to get drafted. You know? Can I just call it gay? Please? Yeah. So you can here, I guess that's a really silver lining on limited civil liberties. I was gonna say, on the civil rights violation, yes. I could not be ripped away from the Oral Roberts website, the page of their strict behavior and conduct regulations. You were crazy for oral. Absolutely no dancing. Yes, no, no quote, no social dancing. I was like, is this fucking footloose? I didn't

actually think it was like... So all these regulations are based on interpretation of scripture. Whose interpretation, you might ask? Whatever. No profanity, no sexual promiscuity, including quote, any homosocial... No, all their behaviors are homosocial. Any homosexual behavior or premarital sex, no drinking, no, quote, social dancing. There's a whole section on horseplay and the various horseplay that's not allowed. What about pot play?

You can't have water balloons. You can't, I don't know. But it was so weird because it'd be like, no sex. And then right underneath that it said, no unauthorized use of copy machines. And's like that's not the same. This is not, this feels like... The meeting, I could imagine the meeting where this came together. Are you putting in the thing about the coffee machine? Yes! We're putting the thing about the coffee machine. They have a whole section on this page of nighttime jogging. So talk about your sexual outlets.

They're like, are aerobic centers open 24-7? It fucking better be. Because if these people can't be horn-dogging. How's the milking machine? Is that open 24-7? They have lighted tennis courts open until midnight, like there. Get that energy out. Get all that sexual energy.

Just jerk off. Are they allowed to jerk off? They're probably, Hondo, not allowed to jerk off. That's what God's little soldiers, you're firing into that napkin, isn't it? So speaking of God's little soldiers, there is a lot of this language. I mean, I watched a bit of a recorded lecture

that was about winning a million people to Christ, like winning them over to Christ. The accounting of souls, as Josie once put it. Right. And so I'm researching the Andamans and then I'm researching Oral Roberts and I was like, wow, Oral Roberts seems like a really specific, isolated culture. Involuntary isolation. You were drawing Theven Motif.

There's that doctorate at work. Thanks. So, John Chow, he was a sporty guy. He was a good looking guy. He majored in exercise science. Should have stuck with it, dude. He managed the soccer team. He hiked, kayaked, rock-climbed, clummed?

Rock-clummed? I don't know. Yeah, that's it. No, that's right. That's right. Is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He rock-clummed.

He was a certified wilderness medic. Wow. He was a very sporty guy. He worked actually for the park service after graduation in California in a park named Whiskey Town, California. Ooh, wow. Sounds like a good time. Yeah. Hard time for John Chow, perhaps. I imagine he wasn't a big drinker. A colleague did ask him out and he was like,

I'm like really gotta focus on Christ or something. I feel bad, dude. Dude, I feel sympathy for that because, how do I say this without alienating every person who's a listener of faith? If you're not a person of faith, you look at that and you go, oh, he devoted his entire life

to a person who maybe isn't there. Yes, he devoted it, he lived it, and he died for it. And if it turns out, and I'm not saying that this is the case, don't email me, please don't email me, but if it turns out that Jesus isn't really the son of God watching over everyone, what a shame. Yeah, I know, like I said, he was a good-looking boy. Yeah. What a shame for John Chow's sake, at least. Mm-hmm. And all of those indigenous peoples we've been talking about who have Yeah, I know look I said he was a good-looking boy. Yeah, what a shame for John Chow's sake at least Mm-hmm, and all of those indigenous peoples. We've been talking about who have been beset upon in the name of said

Yes, what a loss One more thing though about Whiskeytown, California. So he had a cabin There when he was working there and the year he died in 2018, a giant forest fire destroyed 97% of that park. It was the most, on the National Park System website, it's called the most destructive fire in the history of the National Park System. Whoa. What a shame. Because like you do with most fundamentalists,

you start looking into his backstory about was there an inciting incident that caused this person to sort of get untethered. Full devote to Christ in every absolutely every aspect and movement, especially when we know that his dad seems pretty secular, if anything. I mean, his dad seemed to be like, I will take this army scholarship while not being totally sold on the army and I will go to Or army scholarship while not being totally sold on the army. And I will go to Oral Roberts while not being totally sold on Oral Roberts

as a means to an end to like get his. Yeah. People go to fucking Catholic schools and religious schools all the time because it is expedient for them to get an education there for whatever reason. But John seems to be a true believer. He attended a bootcamp sponsored by the All Nations Church that specializes in converting remote tribes.

So he went to a boot camp. Oh my god. I'm just going to repeat that. I was like, so he, so, so All Nations Church, I was like, geez, that seems pretty inclusive. If it's all the nations, that's not what it comes from. They're taken all by force. I was like, oh, okay, geez. So yeah, it's like missionary training.

Their mission is, quote, preaching the gospel to all nations is our first and the most important purpose. And their homepage is like, be part of reaching the neglected globally, the least, the last, and the lost. That's such an ugly way to even think of these people. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so the colonial language is a lot of overlap here because there's a section on the All Nations Church website that's about the Kingdom expansion initiatives. I guess they're talking about the Kingdom of God, but it certainly, you know, it could be like King whatever Henry.

Because those were equated over history. God was the King. It's so it's all such wishy washy. I get real angry when I talk about the history of like Christianity specifically as the source of like war and Occupation etc. So I just won't do that and I'll hand off to Josie, but I'm setting you up or Erica It's the accounting of souls. Very American. Manifest destiny, baby. If you can turn over this many leads, you get a bonus. Yeah, it's like that. It's a multi-level marketing scam.

Find your downline. That's what it is. Go to North Sentinel and find your goddamn downline. Yeah, and that was a fresh market. Yeah, exactly, untapped. Did John go to this boot camp before or after the destructive fire? I guess it was before. This was all sort of working up to.

Okay. Right. And actually, no, so how he was making his money was BonCon because he has a beautiful Instagram page. And so there was a turkey jerky company and there was like a rugged outdoor sandal like a gear So people come down on different ways about His brand and basset or ship some people were like, oh it was a purposeful thing to make him look like a dude, bro No, so his thing would come I don't know one

Whatever this person may think about the devil being in the Sentinel Islands, the devil truly is in the details and turkey jerky, great detail. Number two, this guy being an influencer kind of scans to me with his general persona and I think he was probably just doing spawncon because it was a way to pull in a little bit of money. And wouldn't we? We just haven't been offered. We'll do it. I don't know what SponCon is. I'm so far out of that loop. Okay. Sponsored content. Okay. Jesus. Sponsored content. So anything that has hashtag ad on it is SponCon.

For as much as y'all talk about Kim K on this podcast, for you not to know what SponCon is... Not me, Josie even. Josie does. on this podcast for you not to know what's Fon Con is. Not me, Josie. It's me. Josie does. Involuntary isolation. Yeah.

So yeah, so as you were saying about the mental gymnastics, they did, I read an interview with the director of mission services from this All Nations Church who said that she feels that it is a human rights violation to deny people the knowledge of Christ. Ploop-de-doop, she got going there. You know what? Here's the thing. If your thing is really that you believe that we're talking heaven or hell, that's a powerful

motivation. Sure, it's not my motivation. I haven't quite found a way to convince a person who believes in heaven or hell that it's actually probably a really bad and destructive thing to go and convert a bunch of people to your religion. I don't know how to talk someone out of that. You haven't been to anti-missionary training camp? I couldn't pay the sign up fee this year, I'm sorry.

You need to eat more turkey jerky and put it on your Instagram. There you go, that's the answer. And final thing on this All Nations Church, because I just like went down a rabbit hole, the one near me in Philly has services in both English and Korean. So you know, all nations. It is possible that Chow's primary motivation was concern for the souls of the Sentinelese. Sure. And or to hasten the return of Jesus. Now here's where things get a little fuzzy for me. Okay. Oh.

I guess one of the things about evangelism... Why can't I do it? Evangelism. Oh my God. It feels like... Anyway, I don't know why I can't I do it? Evangelism. Oh my God, it feels like, anyway, I don't know why I can't get the thing. Is that if everybody knows, everyone just needs to know. Know about Jesus and that trips the switch. Yeah, trips the switch. I do wanna take a moment now, cause I set this up like no one has ever contacted

or had friendly contact with the Sentinelese. This is not true. There was an Indian anthropologist in 1991 by the name of Matumala Chatupadhyay. She is an Indian anthropologist who made peaceful contact with the Sentinelese in 1991. What are some differences? I was going to say, what's her secret sauce? Well, the Andaman Islands was the subject of her PhD thesis. So this particular place and people and culture was something she was quite familiar with. She learned related languages. Oh, okay. Right off the boat. I mean, right off the bat and the boat. We have some differences there. So rather

than going to a boot camp to forcibly convert remote peoples, it was like she actually did research and language stuff. Sounds pretty lucky still. Dr. C approached the island on a small vessel, small team, and I might not say dropped coconuts for days, which sounds like a, like a euphemism, but it's not. Yeah, Kamala 2024, baby. Yeah, so she gave a lot of gifts. They're not sure, I mean, I couldn't tell if the North Sentinel Island has coconut trees

and it was like, oh gee, thanks for what we already have. But she would just do gift giving, gift giving, gift giving. Love language. Yes, love language from the boat. Their boat drop offs. Okay. And then she worked up to jumping into the water and sort of sending coconuts in their

general direction. Approach them gradually. Approach them gradually. At that point, there was a man who aimed a bow at the group, but a woman seemed to urge him not to shoot them and kind of like let them get away and they accepted the gifts. And there's actually all kinds of photos of this event happening. So if you look up the North Sentinelese, this is basically some of the only photos that they have. Obviously the ones that make them seem like warlike

and that they are pointing their spears and bows and arrows and things are the ones that are the most circulated, but they were dancing, they were chilling. We've got to sell copies of Nat Geo. Actually Nat Geo was, it was funny to watch a documentary about this because historically National Geographic were like, oh, sorry for like sending explorers places and like being the titty magazine of talking about. Yeah, extractive. They were the titty magazine for a while. Kat Yeah, they certainly had a place in romanticizing this whole endeavor.

Oh yeah, on that note, John Chow, needless to say, Red Tintin and Red Robinson Crusoe and probably old National Geographic. Kite Fucking Tintin. Kite To prepare himself, the boot camp and Tintin. Kat Right, right. It was part of his preparatory. It was part of the curriculum. It was part of the reading.

You don't need to know their language. Just read Tintin. Yeah, there we go. And then Dr. C eventually worked it up to... The Sentinelese actually boarded the anthropologist's boat, had a look-see, and then that's when she was like, okay, I don't want to spread disease, you know, because there are these concerns about. Yeah, uncontacted, quote unquote, people have not been contacted by the same viruses.

And this isn't even, this goes way back into blankets full of smallpox, right? Like this is a long standing thing, the decimation of indigenous peoples by unfamiliar disease. And she said about that experience, quote, you feel that you are there to study, but actually they're the ones who study you. You are foreign in their lands. And also, quote, never ever in my six years of doing research with the tribes of Andamans,

did any man ever misbehave with me. The tribes might be primitive in their technological achievements, but socially they are far ahead of us." That makes sense. So she wound up after this experience, she worked as a medic vaguely in neighboring islands and also discouraged anyone from ever visiting again, which like easy for you to say.

You guys are happy. Do as I say, not as I do. Exactly. There is very much do as I say, not as I do. Exactly. There is very much do as I say, not as I do to deal with that. But I wonder if there was her note about, and I was thinking it already, but her note points to it again, the fact that she's a woman, too.

There isn't something that's like, if that doesn't diffuse. I mean, your note, too, about the guy with the bow, and then the woman seems to have said, please don't. Of course. Yeah. That's universal across cultures. That's like don't get in a fight with a cop, baby.

Yeah, right. That's... Yeah, but it's interesting that you said that because actually John reflected in his journals that it's a good thing that he was biracial because then he could sort of look like maybe a Karen Indian type person. Okay, he could be red.

Okay. And he even said like, God chose me for this mission when I was still in my mother's womb because I was gonna, I don't know. That's some good motivation right there. John's preparations. He created a document called The Plan, capital T, capital P. And was it ever?

The Plan had sections on Intel, landing access, long-term plans, legality, and he shared it with a few contacts in a password-protected email because he knew what he was doing was illegal, this whole scheme. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Because you're not allowed to contact the Sentinelese. any password protected email because he knew what he was doing was illegal. This whole scheme. That's right. Yeah. Because you're not allowed to contact the Sentinelese. Right. The plan is interesting. I'm just envisioning a Google Doc. That's pretty much it, right? Like, oh, I was like bar a napkin until you started going into the final points. No, there are like charts and like, but it feels like so much of these preparations, I don't know, like how far is a chart gonna go?

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. No, and also like information about the legalities that I'm sure this guy sourced himself off the internet. He's not an expert in international law. Yeah. Right. He's like a 20 year old guy from Alabama doing turkey jerky spawn con, hashtag ad. I really want turkey jerky now y'all.

If this phone call works, that's how the spawn call works. It's experiential learning right there. So part of the deal of the plan and this password protected email was to ask for support. So he would sort of cryptically ask hardcore people, including admins from Oral Roberts, who he got close with, for financial support for a project, his project. Capstone. Is it understood by these people

that his project is something like this and that he's just kind of talking in code? Totally, yeah, because once you get into it, then it's like my project is to go to the animal, it's illegal. It's just like, don't put it in writing kind of thing as much as possible. I mean, it's of course part of the allure is that it's illegal. It's treacherous. You're like sneaking around. You're like a bad boy kind of, I don't know. It also has that high adventure vibe too.

Right. Which has motivated so many idiots in our stories over time in Memorial, right? Just like the notion of there's an adventure out there somewhere. And you move to the Galapagos Island without shoes. You get crushed by a tree while looking for a gold mine. You have sex with a dolphin.

All these things. All these things that you wouldn't be doing otherwise. One of his plans in the plan was like, he made a few considerations. So he thought he thought like maybe I should discard a surfboard in The three-mile exclusion zone to like make it look like this was not a purposeful Trespassing to make it look unintentional. What a stupid plan Don't agree.

I don't agree. But they just fly out the window, huh, Taylor? It's just, it's funny that you said that because when you, like, I'm remembering Dr. C's coconuts and it's like, oh, is that what he's doing? He's trying to say like someone's in the vicinity, but no, he's just trying to cover his own ass legally. His own ass.

That's the wrong way, the wrong way to come through. But he did have like basically a cabal of enablers. Good point. It's not. That's a good way to put it. And it was never his parents. So speaking of it about this, Patrick, we're revisiting Father Patrick, who's a psychiatrist. Around during this time, he was busted for prescribing Xanax to undercover agents and

had gone an 11-year probation. Which first of all, I think Xanax is a human right. So, like, give the people their Xanax. If Jesus Christ is a human right, then Xanax is certainly a human right. Like, you're welcome, agents. gives it to people who are Xanax. If Jesus Christ is a human right, then Xanax is certainly a human right. Like, you're welcome, agents. Like, we all have hard days. Also, I mean, aren't there other bigger, more serious drugs to be busting out there?

Like, that does not make sense. Yeah, I don't care. I don't care. I know. I don't care. Whoops. I mean, I understand why the medical board cares. There should be some regulations on that, whatever. Me, Taylor Vasso, oh, honey, last week

someone lied about being in 9-11. It gets so much worse. Right, but I mean, I guess the destruction of Whiskeytown, his father being put on probation, these are things that people are sort of grasping at as to why he did this, but. Everything, I'm sure, influences the guy in some small way. But there's also this like colonialism bootcamp that plays a part too.

And like you say this cabal of enablers who are like glorifying what he does. Because you want to win the people and also the bootcamp seemed to be like middle-aged ladies in like middle management who would like show up behind trees with like a spear and it was like how do you respond I mean I don't know it didn't seem to have those very similes. Oh Debra you're not similes. Debbie's out there, Helen, Carol you know them. They're doing their best. They're showing off. John's other preparations including, so he packed a Bible of course. And then he packed dental forceps for arrow removal. He took a class in learning unknown languages.

Like Elfen or something. Which feels highly conceptual, maybe. And he got thoroughly immunized. Which kind of feels like a sad detail. Like, get your shots. I don't know. Your shots. Yeah, well.

Good for him. Yeah. Good for him. Oh man. He flies to Port Blair, that city we were talking about that was originally Penal Colony and the Panopticon. He stayed in what was termed a safe house, likely with Oral Roberts missionary people. Yeah, other missionaries.

He stayed there for 11 days because a cyclone delayed his plan. And I'm like, if that's not a sign from God, I don't know. Yo, man, this isn't me telling you to chill out. He was very, very driven or seemed to be very, very driven. He also kept a journal with meticulous notes. That's how a lot of this information, we have his firsthand account of how things went. So Cyclone delayed his plan. He eventually found a couple of fishermen

who he bribed or paid to get him into the three mile exclusion zone. Kite This before you go further, I will just say like, there's a version of the story in which he is an evangelist in this area. He learns about this island. It's very intriguing. Oh my gosh, like I'm going to do more years of preparation and then he goes and you know, whatever he it's still a. Oh my gosh, like I'm going to do more years of preparation and then he goes and you know, whatever he it's still a bad idea. But this version is like, he is in his cabin in Whiskeytown, California reading National Geographic, or he's like, on Instagram flipping, and he sees this and he's like, I want to do that. I want to climb that mountain. I want to dive into that

underwater canyon. I want to contact these uncontacted peoples. Yeah, check it off the bucket list. It's a bucket list. Yes. And there's something like particularly insidious. Maybe I can do sponsored content with the Sentinelese. SponKong coconuts. I mean, his Instagram was beautiful. It was so many beach scenes and travel. Very aesthetic, as the kids would say. This guy should have just been a travel blogger.

Yeah, he should have stuck with that. But I guess there was some kind of calling. Yeah. A calling. Which... Yeah. The call was coming from inside the house on this one, it sounds like. It sure the call was coming from inside the house on this one. It sounds like it's sure the hell was Patrick later reflected

That he was quote selectively collecting whatever preachers doctrines were in favor of his self-directed self-governed self-appointed plan Patrick was very much like this is you this is not God. This is this is you a 26 year old boy Wanting to do adventure and wanting to do tin tin. And if you were listening to signs, as you say, Ericka Cho, then the fucking cyclone that comes in and delays you might be a sign, I don't know. That's a test. That's a test of faith.

The signs are what you want them to be. See? It could be interpreted that way. And when I was watching, and I can only watch a little bit of it, but several sermons about this topic, it's difficult to tell the lines between what is metaphorical language and what is not because it's like we need to recruit soldiers and it's like souls and soldiers and like, you need to go to the darkest forest and like

God might not. It might seem like he's not there, but you need to go to the darkest forest and like God might not. It might seem like he's not there, but you need to, yeah, go forward, go forward. Yeah, no, yeah. This is all directly quoted from the Bible by the way. I think this is the Leviticus. Uh-huh, uh-huh. 115 to 128 maybe. So I guess he's fishermen and documents all of this

that he detaches his kayak from the boat he paddles over and he says this my name is John oh my god he's speaking oh yeah English my name is John you want to introduce yourself though I mean that's rude to just I love you and Jesus loves you Jesus Christ gave me the authority to come to you. Here is some fish." Okay. Symbolic fish. The fishermen. Well, yeah. Well, so here's the thing. Unlike coconuts, which the jury is still out on, the people of the North Sentinel Island absolutely can find their own fucking fish.

Yeah. It is not a gift. Yeah. It's an island. Bring them a Snickers bar. Bring them, yeah, something they might not have. Bring them a Snickers bar. King size, I hope. Also want to note that it seems relevant that those fishermen didn't join him. They just dropped him off. Oh, fuck no. Yeah. I mean, and so his journal reflected that they were true believers, but they also could have been true people who wanted cash and like capitalists.

Yeah. Give me money. This like idiot wants to go to the earth. Yeah, I was trying not to. Okay. So no, but no, it's there. It's there. It can be. It can be all things. I know. I feel that I know what you mean. So let's just name it. Every time I say something like this fucking idiot, I feel bad because I know he ends up getting killed and that I don't want to call someone who gets killed an idiot. But also like, I don't think this plan is very good either. So here we are. I know. And I was even like, oh, try to resist the impulse to even call it like killed. So I'm so just call it like, but I guess I guess manslaughter is killing anyway. Like he was killed involuntary. He was voluntarily killed. I mean, he knew. I don't know. Why don't we let's get there and we'll judge

Taylor can run down what the charge is. but we understand that this is a very specific Cultural context that exists. Mm-hmm But I mean even the fact that it's like the third sentence Jesus Christ gave me authority to come to you feels like it's up to Interpretation I would be like, okay, first of all, who the fuck is Jesus Christ? Second of all, what the fuck are you saying? Third of all, let's kill him. Yeah, those would be the thoughts. Yeah What the fuck are you saying? Third of all, let's kill him. Yeah, those would be the thoughts. Yeah, because uninvited Bringing weird fish talking in a language and also like preacherly so it was like it wasn't like oh, hey guys Like my name is John. It's like, you know all the sermons that you hear like can I get myself in trouble? Yeah, that's again. This is the setup

I am luring you Okay, go ahead. With no disrespect, again, meant to any Christian listener or otherwise, one of the things that can sometimes frustrate me about setups like this is sometimes I feel like Christianity. It is set up in a hierarchy where a guy who is like this guy is the top of the heap.

A man who speaks with authority, regardless of kind of whether he knows the subject, a man who speaks with authority is God-like because God is a man who gives these sermons and Jesus is a man who gives these sermons. So it enables really toxic guys, Jim Bob Dugger, various mega church pastors. Joel.

Who? Joel Ope. My father-in-law. Oh no, you're talking about Joel Ope. I'm talking about Joel Ope. Okay, forget Joel O. My father-in-law. Oh no, you're talking about Joel. I'm talking about Joel. He's like your father-in-law. Got it, got it. But I don't know.

No, he's a good, oh shit. Sure, Joel O. Whatever, it empowers guys like that to ape the figure of the Christian God and be these men who proclaim and we're just supposed to listen because that's what the Bible says. So John's there, he's on the beach, he's waving a Bible around and he gets shot in the Bible by a child. By a child. Oh Jesus. Now we're not even trying with the symbolism anymore.

That's the sign, you gotta go. What? Aim? Great on a child? Damn. Because the Sentinelese, when they shoot you with an arrow, they do not miss. They do this for a living. So the kid was, you know, this is what he was aiming for, to get as a warning shot.

But John did not take it that way. No. He returned to the fishing boat and then in his journal, he claims that the verse that stopped the arrow. Oh no. Yeah. Although you feel like it has to probably have punctured several pages,

but he's saying that was Isaiah 65, one, two, that said Isaiah 65, one, two, that said, quote, "'I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me. "'I was found by those who did not seek me, "'to a nation that did not call my name. "'I said, here am I, here I am. "'All day long I have held my hands out "'to obstinate people

who walk in ways not good pursuing their own imaginations. Now I didn't double check that with our house Bible, which we don't have. Um. Okay. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. If that is in fact where the arrow is stopped, I would be like, yeah, that's a sign from God I'm going back.

Ha ha ha ha ha. I mean. No, but he's saying that that's the first unpunctured page. Yeah. That was, that's where God put the bookmark. Right. Yeah. This is the bookmark. So he reflects on that in his journal and he also says, I felt some fear, but mostly was disappointed. They didn't accept me right away. And it's like, Oh, so he feels left out. But what would give you an indication at all? You understand as part of your reason being here that they're hostile. Yeah, but, and so I was like, oh, that's, I don't know. Felt like vulnerable, but also like incredibly short-sighted.

Yes, yeah, yeah, the vulnerability. What were you expecting? The pathos of humanity, huh? It's a tough one. And he also wrote in his journal that night, like, I could still make it back to the US, but I would have failed my mission from God. We all fail our missions from God. No, no, no, no hardcore Christian line of thinking.

It's not okay to fail a mission from God. So. So yeah, I mean, it's just that little glimmer is so heartbreaking for me that he's like, I could go home, but I won't. And I'm not. And he didn't. So he went back to the fisherman's boat with his kayak. The next day he returned, but the exact circumstances of his death are unknown because he stopped

journaling. That'll do it. Yep. That's how that ends. But he was clearly killed by bows and arrows and his body was left on the beach. So it wasn't like a disappearance, it was like a, hey, we told you. Yeah. Hey, we killed this guy. And the fishermen were later arrested for abetting a crime.

No! Yeah. Well, they did. They did. Well, they did. A bribe did occur. Like, you don't take a bribe if you're not doing anything wrong, right? The Indian police report said, because they investigated it, and they said Chow died as a result of

quote, and the adjectives here are so good, of quote, misplaced adventure in the highly restricted area while trying to interact with uncontacted people with a history of vigorous rejection towards outsiders. Well put. Yep, that's true. Yes, that was death by misadventure for sure. Outside Magazine, which was one of my main sources for this. Did you read it inside or outside?

Oh, you're so cute. You. I just wanna know. Did you take it outside? Were you like, I should go outside to read this. Good lighting out there. No, because I didn't have a physical cop that I was using then.

Internet, internet, yeah, no, print media and stuff. Outside Magazine said that Chow was characterized at best as a dumbass backpacker and at worst as a Christian supremacist indifferent to genocide. And I was like, yes. Yeah. And, like. There does seem to be an at-best and an at-worst scale for his story certainly. For me I'm able to see like a lot of like the nuance of the situation not in such a way that I'm able to like condone what he's done or really even hold the

Sentinelese responsible for it. I certainly don't hold them responsible. Yeah, I certainly don't hold the Sentinelese. But I'm able to view it as a tragedy also, you know what I mean? Like it's kind of one of those stories where like, you see someone making a series of very bad decisions and there seems like a lot of opportunities where that could have stopped before he died. And that's not

nice, like even if you think that the guy was a dumbass in the way that he went about it, which he was, or if you think the overall mission that he was on is like toxic and deleterious to humanity and its specifics, which I personally think that it is, I think you can still feel a little bad too. I feel a little bad even though he's like, I don't know. The more I interrogate that feeling of badness, the more I try to tell myself, but tailor this, but tailor that. I feel like maybe it's like a storytelling thing too. I feel like maybe you can't help but sympathize with the protagonist of a narrative no matter how misguided they are.

In the documentary by National Geographic, they interviewed, this is really interesting, and they interviewed a missionary who worked in the Amazon for 30 years, and then ultimately was like, I don't believe in God anymore, like forget this. He decided to examine his situation purely based on practical impact. Yep. And was like, yeah, just erase the whole conceptual,

there's a God, there's a heaven, whatever, like this is my mission my calling my whatever he said what this does is it introduces disease it introduces poor diet and like he lost his faith he lost his i mean his family the way he puts it because he had a wife and kids and they were like they're still true believers and he said we live in the 21st century and still have people believing a first century myth and who are willing to die for it. Whoa. Yeah, he's definitely lost his faith. Yeah. And I was like, oh damn, though, that

is a first century. That's yeah, that's a really, that's a way to put it. Yeah. What stands out to me and what he's saying too is like the practical nature of it. Right. And like, in my experience of Christianity, having grown up going to church and all that kind of stuff, the practicality of it is that it's community, and that it's a place where like you can find... Totally. You can find people, you're not in isolation, you can have discussions and understandings of concepts and ideas that are really large and untenable, and you can discuss them with other people, and that's really important and really helpful. But once you're going into a community where it seems to me, if they're a community that is still around, or that is functioning on any level, they have something in place like that. When you're coming in and saying, exactly, no, but this community is better without knowing anything about theirs. I mean, that's, that's very easy to

understand. But I think the approach of what is the practicality of Christianity, it could have done wonderful things for your life and your community. And you know, whatever, whatever else you want to chalk up to that if you believe that it's done wonderful things for your nation or blah blah blah. But it's impossible to bring to somebody else. STACEY Yeah. KATE Like the last take was the anthropologist, Dr. C. The tribes of the islands do not need outsiders to protect them. What they need is to be left alone. But of course they're not alone. STACEY Right.

KATE Like we're talking about, they're deeply connected as a society to each other and their traditions and... Yeah. And voluntary. I think something that appealed to me is that I am very interested in challenging the assumptions of civilization as linear and as positive. I do feel that we are quite isolated. There's a loneliness epidemic, you know, in whatever you want to call it, industrialized, westernized places. And so I was like making brownies for my neighbor being like, I don't know, is it annoying to

bring brownies over? Whereas meanwhile, John Chow was like, Iies for my neighbor being like, I don't know, isn't it annoying to bring brownies over? Whereas meanwhile, John Chow was like, I'm gonna bring everything. I'm gonna flip the fucking table. Civilizing, like civilization. Oh, Western society, I'll say blatantly what you're being polite about. Western civilization blows chunks in its current state.

What the fuck do we have to offer these people? Right, I was like, health insurance forms? Like all of these things that we spend our time doing. Is our time meaningful? Are we meaningfully connected to the past? Do we have spiritual life? Do we have like, whatever? Are we in connection with the food we eat?

Are we in connection with the nature around us? Are we in connection with the nature around us? Are we in connection with our neighbors? Right, like is our new God Ozempic? Maybe. I don't know. Taylor does love lonely people in apartments as a theme. I wonder why I'm fucking lonely and I live in an apartment. Live in a studio.

I live, that's fucking less than an apartment. That's half an apartment. I don't know. I think that the point you make about community is well taken because like as someone gay I associate organized religion and the Christianity around me with like a sense of like exclusion from community. Possibly due to my own baggage like there are branches of Christianity that are local, that are very accepting of gay people and will marry you and whatever. But I think about, I think growing up I thought of it as like religious communities expel

and judge you for being queer in whatever capacity. And I also think that like maybe because of that, I'm very inclined to throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of like, first of all, I understand that people read the Bible in different ways and have translated it in different ways to mean different things, et cetera. So I don't wanna like position myself as a historian on the history of the Bible.

But when I look at, you phrased it as like a first century myth or whoever whoever phrased it that way, when I look at this I'm like oh this is a book that someone wrote a couple thousand years ago that's the reason that everybody hates me now because I happen to be gay. Not everybody right? Like that's being very broad but that is the way that I kind of being very broad, but that is the way that I kind of enter that sort of organized religion. So when I see someone like this young man who shows up like, hey guys, Jesus divinely appointed me

to personally change everything about your centuries old culture, even though you have loudly and repeatedly made it clear that you are not fucking interested in this newsletter. That's tough. That rings a lot of my personal bells. I'm like, yeah, leave me alone. And I think also maybe coming from like a Jewish heritage

also always felt, you know, with a sense of outsider-ness and a sense of always being annoyed that the presidential candidates have to tap dance which churches they were members of and if they're a good Christian and how they're a good Christian. Yes, yes, God is on the money.

God is in the Pledge of Allegiance. Right, right. And so, but then maybe that's easy to want to rage against the machine. I don't know. It must be nice to come at it from like an insider's perspective to just be like someone who's really enmeshed in and gets the whole organized religion thing and is like, yes, we will stop watching porn.

I mean, a sense of meaning would be nice occasionally. That's nice. Like, you know, one feels like one lives in, you know, godless whatever postmodern times. Yeah. The sense of meaning is nice. The lack of fear of death is probably pretty chill. That sounds like a good one. But I do think that makes Patrick a very interesting element of the story is that he does come from that he does understand that and he still says

this is an inflated sense of ego that overtook my son. Totally. Erica did you ever bake the brownies and give them to your neighbor though? I did actually. So how did your neighbor receive said brownies? They were a hit. They were. Yeah, because they're fucking free weed brownies. Of course they're a fucking hit. How could they not be a hit? Yeah, they were tasty too. And I cut them just aesthetically. They were enormous. And I was like, these are not... Scoot the brownies as they should be.

I didn't tell him they weren't dosed. So we just took one to the face and I was like chatting with him across our porch and he was like, I gotta go. Yeah. I gotta go put my cheek against something cold for an hour. Give me a sec. Got it. Although it's funny because actually the other day he like called me and he was like, I have

something for you now. And he gave me a beautiful, like a beautiful thing of bud. And I, but then I said, I was like, oh God, now we're just going to be exchanging gifts back and forth throughout the, throughout a beautiful thing of bud and I but then I said I was like oh god now we're just gonna be exchanging gifts back and forth around the throughout time I was like I just wanted to do one nice thing and now I'm in a relationship like I love that I'm good friends with my neighbors if there's a moral to be had here as we've recently been revisiting our morals it's perhaps that kindness starts locally. Yes!

If you're thinking of contacting an uncontacted group of people who have very clearly stated that they would like to remain uncontacted, perhaps you could bake a tray of brownies for your neighbor. Put them on a little floaty and send them their way. I like that. Send them into that three mile isolation zone. For the best. Yeah. Yeah, float

some coconuts. Yeah, see what happens. Good pick, Erica Jo. Damn. Yeah, Erica Jo, thank you so much for this stopping in and giving us this episode and also thank you so much for your ongoing support of the show. It means a lot. I love it. I feel like you baked us a plate of special brownies. It's really... Yeah, that shit took us to Mars. Truly. Truly did. Thanks for listening.

If you want more infamy, we've got plenty more episodes at bittersweetinfamy.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to support the podcast, shoot us a few bucks via our Ko-fi account at ko-fi.com forward slash bittersweetinfamy. But no pressure, bittersweet infamy is free, baby! You can always support us by liking, rating, subscribing, leaving a review, following us on Instagram at bittersweetinfamy,

or just pass the podcast along to a friend who you think would dig it. Stay sweet. The sources I used for this story include an article from Outside Magazine entitled The Last Days of John Allen Chow by Alex Perry, an article from The Guardian called The Life and Death of John Chow, The Man Who Tried to Convert His Killers by J. Oliver Conroy, Wikipedia pages for John Allen Chow, Conroy, Wikipedia pages for John Allen Chow, North Sentinel Island, The Man of the Whole, and various other related hyperlinks, as well as the National Geographic documentary, The

Mission, which I think was later changed to The Mission to Contact because they made a reality series called The Mission About Missionaries. Anyway, directed by Amanda McBain and Jesse Moss. Big shout out to all our monthly subscribers. Jonathan Mountain, Lizzie, Dylan and Sacha the Cat, Erica Jo Brown and Soph. Thank you all for being lovely subscribers. If you too would like to be a monthly subscriber and get access to Bittersweet exclusives,

you can head over to coffee.com slash bittersweetinfamy. That's K-O dash F-I dot com slash bittersweetinfamy. Bittersweetinfamy is a proud member of the 604 Podcast Network. The interstitial music you heard earlier is by Mitchell Collins. And the song you are listening to now is Tea Street by Brian Steele. You want to say stay sweet to wrap up the show?

Oh yeah, so just stay sweet? Yeah. Stay sweet! I'm gonna go like this.