Bittersweet Infamy - #85 - Rand Larceny

Episode Date: November 19, 2023

Josie tells Taylor about South Africa's crooked cop turned brazen bank robber, the infamous André Stander. Plus: the stone cold truth about the most iconic novelty gift of the 1970s—the Pet Rock.

Business notifications getting out of hand, buried under an avalanche of customer emails, texts, and social media messages? Keep your edge with Thrive Small Business Off-Dware and never miss a message again. Thrive offers one solution to communicate, market, and run your business, but simply, small businesses run better on Thrive. Get Command Center for free today at thrive.ca. That's THR-Y-V dot-A. Terms and conditions apply free plans have limited functionality. Welcome to Bitter Sweden. I'm Taylor Vaso. And I'm Josie Mitchell. On this podcast, we share

the stories that live on it in the... Strangin' the familiar? The tragic and the comic? The bitter and the sweet. I'd like to start this episode with an apology that I feel is owed from me to the audience. Oh, what'd you do, Taylor? I'm really unhappy with how many times I said the F word in the season premiere. Oh, I didn't notice. happy with how many times I said the F word in the season premiere.

I didn't notice. I certainly did. I said it like three times in one sentence at one point. It was a quick turnaround time on the edit and typically that's something that I would catch on a listen through. And it wasn't until the one live that I heard it. And so as my like, you know, I understand that we like our rimming jokes and so on here in bed or Sweden for me, we're not gonna act like we don't. But we were talking about your wedding and your relatives and stuff and stuff, and so I

thought it would probably be who you have a slightly cleaner mouth. So I am gonna challenge myself to see if I can make it for the rest of this episode without saying the F word. I'm gonna see. And that's the only, it's not. I can say shit. I can say shit. I can say bitch. I can say ass. I'm gonna try to avoid it because spooning leads to forking as they say. But let's see. Let's see how long it takes me to mess that up.

Can you say forking? Yeah, that's okay. I'm letting myself off the hook for that one. What a fun challenge. This will be good. Yeah, I'm gonna try to say like F-bomb, we're F-bleep, you know, I'll try to be. You know? You know, I don't, that's again, that's playing with fire. I feel like that's, you'll slip up if you do

that sort of business. Forking a spooning as you already said, yeah. if you do that sort of business. Forking a spooning as you already said. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, speaking of, here's a, here's a seg. Speaking of people who are doing pretty forking well for themselves. Ha-ha-ha-ha.

Your girl, my girl, our collective girl Rebecca Black recently showed up on a, uh, did you see this? No. They just dropped a new list of what is clearly a music festival program for like queer people because listen to this, listen to this lineup, listen to this slide. It's not like explicitly for queer people but listen to this lineup. Okay. In addition to Rebecca Black, if you go on June 1st in Brixton in the UK to the Mighty Hola festival. You can see Nelly Fertado, Kim Petrus, and Vogue, Banana Rama, Eve, Bewitched, and of course none other than Countess Luann will be appearing at

the mighty hoopla festival alongside Rebecca Black and Co. Did she say Bewitched? Some people say it looked like me dad. Yes, serious! Uh oh! Yeah, that one be wish. Yeah I know they were still performing. I gotta make it dude. This is how to rad and Rebecca black and Countess Lewand the Countess count me in Count me in count us in us. U-in. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Yeah, casters got an autobiography. Yeah, it is called the race to be myself a memoir

Memoir, well you kind of have to go again with that like a That that pun title. It's very yeah In the marathon of life loyalty is everything cat Carol Radsable real host of New York. There's a tagline for every occasion Mmm, they mostly have puns just like that. So what's told me, what is a, what else cast you're going to say? It's about her life and her struggles and how she's come through. And I heard her on the radio, on national public radio. And she's being interviewed about the book.

I'm just talking about how she felt. It was important to share her story because through all the tense emotional rigmarole that hormones put her through and the public eye put her through, she was very quiet and didn't feel ready or prepared to share her story and now she's at a point in her life where she is and she thinks it's a very important story to share as we obviously think. You in particular considering that you selected her story to share. Yeah.

Yeah, so it sounds like she's in a really good place. She wants to make her side of the story more personal and more known and I don't know, it looks like it's pretty good. It looks like it's pretty good book. Christmas is a common. And as we said, it's her story reflects the stories of other people competing in the same sport and other track events that are not as well known that don't maybe have the name, Cache, Caster Semenia,

but are similarly being discriminated against for medical traits and in a way that's like really yucky and plays into a lot of the bigger picture discrimination that we see against people who don't meet Leif at into our societal preconceptions of what is a man or what is a woman. Right, yeah. Thank you for bringing that. Thank you PR baby. Thank you MPA. ThankP.I. Thank you M.G.P.I. Me just driving around Houston to my little Prius, my little Toyota Prius, listen to M.G.P.R. You can make a difference, but you can't.

They hate me here. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I like you. I like you. Mm-hmm. It's nice to be hated in hateful places, I suppose. Fuck, that's metal too, so it's wet. Oh! Why do I get to do when you drop an F bomb?

Is it, can I like, oh I did it, I did it, I did it, I did it. Can I bring a little bell? No, I just did it. I just did it. Yeah, I just, I think it's great. I think you're doing really good. Well, I don't have to worry so much about that anywhere. It's a little bit of an albatross around off

from my neck, you know. Oh, okay. Well, I will be tallying you. I've got the pin. I'm still gonna try to clean up my mouth for this I really okay get some mouthwash brush your teeth So you want to you want to hear a little minifimus? Give me a little a little taster a little shot I'm gonna get you some port okay port me Port me up. Here we go, well. Port me up, Scotty. Sure, yep. And continuing on, the American dream, am I right?

Ooh. What do you interpret the American dream to be more or less? There's a lot of elements to it, but I guess the first thing that comes to my imping is home ownership. Okay. Or like property, ownership of property. Sure. So what I thought of when I first think of the American Dream, I think it's something like through hard work, you can achieve any, you can achieve bounty, right? Like you can achieve anything and often it's in the form of material things like property like yachts, you know, yeah

Yeah, it's it's in mesh with upward mobility, right? Right. Yeah, there is sort of a perversion of the American dream that I think is seen as Increasingly popular and I think like especially in like a satirical context That like you can sort of eliminate that notion of hard work to it, and just like, bounty is guaranteed you through magical thinking and luck. Yeah. Basically, what I'm trolling around to get here, what I'm sniffing around at. What I'm sniffing around at with my very specific interpretation of the American dream is I think that

there is perhaps a subset of person who, well, it's not quite a win the lottery fantasy. It's the idea that you can like, it's the idea that you can get rich quick with an idea. That like the idea itself, you just need to come up with one really good idea. And app. And then you will be an app and invention, a service, a I'm the first person, I'm the first person to discover that this is the more efficient way to cook toast, the better most chap, whatever it is. Yeah. And then you're on easy street and all it takes is just like the having of this one genius

idea and that will change your fortunes forever. Yeah. What's your big idea? Because I feel like most people have a big idea that they've either told someone about or not told someone about that you think that like if people would just listen to me about this or if I could get this produced, everything would change. This has not been in the hopper for long, so no one's stealing. Okay, it's coming out a little half-baked.

A little gooey might be careful, that might burn the top of your mouth, folks. Everyone be careful. This weekend my sister-in-law Nicole was here visiting, my sister-in-law Nicole was here visiting my sister-in-law my brother Frank we're here visiting Nicole is a Somaliay and I grabbed some champagne so that we could have mimosas in the morning and I kept referring to it because it's cheap and I like I don't know I guess it was a little embarrassed because she's a Somaliay so I just had referring to it as a brute force champagne because it was like a brute, you know, like BRUT. I don't even know why I don't

know, so I kept calling it brute force and Nicole took the bottle and she's like, how is brute force? And I was like, oh, I just made that up. I think she turned to me and she's like, We should let's do it. Let's go. Let's make a champagne and call it brute force So this is how you're making your million. That's how Nicole and I are gonna become millionaires So no, my count a million is We were talking about the value of Of the pun earlier you think this is the million dollar pun? Uh-huh, yeah. I will say that my family has these and they all seem to be Christmas related. My mom came up with one that was like it was a rug that you unfolded and it looks like it has

presents on it. They just pop up and it's for people who like don't have presents. That's really sad. But you can tell she's from the 70s. She's from the era of non-drought places having astroturf. Right, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. And then my brother came out one year with Christmas in a cup, and that was just chopped up, pieces of pine that were in a cup of water that he put in the freezer.

And it had some ceramic and you just poked it all and you sniffed it. water that he put in the freezer and like it had some ceramic and you just poked all and you sniffed it. I mean I do think Christmas is a good a good theme to base these off of because people spend money like crazy at Christmas. Wait do you have one? You cited family ones. Mine is I want to you again trademark me no-s doing. My one is that I want to again trademark me no-sdoing My one is that I want to do a tattooing place that is not like always just playing like fucking free god elish by corn and like I want it to be like you come in. We've got like different streaming services You can put on Anya. We've got like gaming systems. We've got like, you can get like a facial and a fucking man-y while you're there,

just like really be-gy tattoo place is my answer. And it's for like, you know, targeting like upscale, like fucking, basically like snobs and people who are scared of people with too many tattoos, but they want like a butterfly on their ankle. That's the demo. Well, what I'm about to describe is a little bit of child's play compared to all of those terrible

ideas that we just discussed, those terrible American-slash Canadian james. Today I'm gonna tell you the story of a man whose name resonates in the annals of getting rich quick and the unlikely and infamous idea that brought him success. It's late 1975 in California. Okay, bullshit. Okay, buckle up, it gets crazier from here. Freelance advertising copywriter Gary Doll is cutting loose after a long day of Mad Menning enjoying drinks with some friends at the bar Beers lead to bitching and the friends are going to town on their pets They're needy. They're always hungry. They set off your allergies. They piss everywhere and they destroy the furniture Sounds like they shouldn't have pets

So what and will you want them to kill them? Oh my god. Is this the Chiapet? Even you're you're you're thinking too big Okay Doll in his inebriation is visited by the spirit of the smart afts And he tells the group that he has a pet that never begs Bathers messes the carpet. He has Josie a pet that never begs, bothers, and messes the carpet. He has Josie. A pet rock. A pet rock.

Oh, there's rocks. Hey. The joke, much like Josie's own gets a solid laugh and the group starts riffing. No vet bills, you just need to scrape the moss off. Ha, ha, you know, yeah. Ba, yeah, yeah. It got, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It got hysterically funny, recalls doll. No one took it seriously at all. The subject moves on, but doll is unable to shake his big idea. When he gets home, he begins to write a tongue-in-cheek manual for his proposed pet, detailing its pedigree. Not just any old rock-in-diss. I agree. It's... Yeah, sure. That's not actually a rock pun. That's just its pet degree. Not just any old rock. It's... It's...

Yeah, sure. That's not actually rock pun. That's just a pet pun. But sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, shouldn't it take it. We'll take it. We'll take it. Listen. It's clear.

It's clearance. All goods must go. Get it out now. Better open it. It has been formally trained to do a number of tricks, including the most popular play dad, the booklet entitled The Care and Training of your pet rock ends up being 32 pages. Well, quote, your pet rock will be a devoted friend and companion for many years to come.

Rocks enjoy a rather long life span so the two of you will never have to part, at least not on your pet rocks account. Once you have transcended the awkward training stage, your rock will mature into a faithful, obedient, loving pet with but one purpose in life, to be at your side when you want it to and to go lie down when you don't. Doll also ingeniously decides on an iconic way to package the pets. Each rock comes nestled in a bed of excelsior, which, did you do know what excelsior is? Absolutely not, no. Is it like, I'm just imagining like Easter basket grass.

Yes, it is. It's like crinkly straw. I learned that soft straw of the type that you would find in an Easter basket is called excelsior apparently, which I didn't know prior to researching this. But is it plastic or is it real grass? Real grass. Oh, it's real straw. So it's real straw. I was gonna say, it's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass.

It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass.

It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass.

It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. It's a real grass. is increasingly small, but god damn it, here we are. They put this rock, they nestled in a little bed of Excelsior and they put in a little cardboard carrying box, none like a happy meal container. Airholes thoughtfully included on the side. And blazing with the slogan, this box contains one genuine pedigree pat rock. Like all freelancers, Dole is struggling with his bills and this might just be his way out. But first he needs investors. He convinces two friends, George Cochely and John Hagerty, to come on as funders for 10 grand or a little over. Guess how much? Give me a sincere gas 10 grand in today's money. 50 grand. 61 grand, so not too bad.

Okay, look at that inflation sucks. Yeah, oh, does it ever. Oh, rough. Look at that inflation sucks. Yeah, oh, does it ever. It seems like a real gamble to take on selling rocks, and it is, but the gamble is really on dolls marketing and production ingenuity. Right. He's able to source Mexican beetrucks for free, the straw for cheap, and tack the manual printing job onto the production of the boxes. So really, we're just paying to manufacture the cardboard boxes.

Oh my gosh. Whoa. the boxes. So really, we're just paying to manufacture the cardboard boxes. Oh my gosh, whoa. The whole kit in Caboodle is ready for the 1975 holiday season at the low, low price of $395. Says doll, Americans had never seen anything like this before. The country was feeling sorry for itself. There was Vietnam and Watergate and the recession. The country needed a laugh, so I packaged a $4 gg in a box. Okay. In August 1975, Dal launches the Pet Rock at the San Francisco gift show and it's a quick hit. Newsweek covers the story and Neiman Marcus orders 1,000. I'm sorry Neiman Marcus? Mr. Neiman and Mr. Marcus both come down together.

My mom always calls it Needless Markup. Got him. Fucking got him. Soon there are pyramids of pet rocks in the window display at blooming dales in Americans who need a four dollar giggle are happily adopting hardened new best friends. A hardened new best friends. Like a chew. You can do a pet rock. You could sell pet

rock. I think you could do it. I could. I think you. Thank you. I take that as a compliment. Yeah. By the holiday season of 1975, doll is selling up to a hundred thousand pet rocks a day to the tune 1.5 million rocks within just a few months. Oh my God. That beach in Mexico is nude. There's a lot of black to bald men. Yes, they are having some very intense erosion happening. Doll himself is making 95 cents a rock, and he earns over a million dollars on the project or about 6.25 million now.

Oh my god. Whoa. He uses the money to launch his own marketing firm which is called a rock pun. It's just just any rock pun that you got. Rock hard. The close rock bottom productions. Oh okay. Receptionist and through the phone with, you've reached rock bottom. Oh, that's good. Good for that. Yeah. Yeah. Investors, uh, Cochlear and Hagerty make $200,000 back on their initial $10,000 investments. Wow. And doll, gifts them both with Mercedes cars.

They still end up suing him for more money anyway. Watch out when you mix friendship and business. It can get rocky. Okay, despite attempts to juzh up the pet rock with ideas like a red, white, and blue rock to celebrate the American bison teniel. And spin off ideas like a grow your own sand kit. The craze craters after four months with remaining inventory being sold at a deep discount

after Christmas, 1976. Doll is fine with that. He approached the whole thing as a fat to begin with and besides he's gone his payday. He moves to a 5200 square foot house with a pool in the mountains of Los Gatos. Nice. He enjoys what he calls an eight yearlong vacation after which he continues to work at high levels and advertising as well as operating a sailboat brokerage. He also opens a bar called Cari Nations where patrons come around and pitch him on their

own big ideas, which he says usually involve packaging animal bun of some kind. Elephant poop paper? Is that it? Elephant is in there, yes. It's not that easy,. He says to turn any shitty concept into the next pet rock quote. We invented the novelty gift item and we destroyed it at the same time newscasters talk about this to that possibly being the new pet rock. It's a standard by which all is judged, but I'm fairly sure there will be no more pet rocks. Gary doll passed away in 2015. You can still purchase pet rocks online through an unaffiliated company to whom Gary sold the license. Inflation is a bitch as Josie observed earlier. They now retail for 29.99. I got a lot of my car. I was thinking because I did the little inflation calculation in my head very exacting and I was like,

it's gotta be like 1499, 1599. 29. 29. 29. 99. So if you don't wanna pay the toll and your adventurous impatient, you can also head outside to catch and tame a wild pet rock of your own.

That is the story of Gary Doll and his ingenious. Where should I say igneous idea? The pet rock parentheses just kidding their sedimentary. Oh, boom, they're not igneous at all. They're not igneous at all. I just said that for the word play. Well, if you picked up an igneous rock and made it your pet wouldn't that isn't that allowed? Is that not allowed? The ones that they sell, the official pet agreed ones that they sell via the kit are Mexican bee trucks. So if you want one of these counterfeit one of these one of these puppy millerocks. Why breed or buy when shelter pets die. That's what I say. You go down to a gravel pit. There's hundreds of thousands of pet rocks waiting

to adopt them. Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Wow. How you feeling? Feeling rock hard? I'm so... Not anymore. Not anymore. Well, we took my son's rock to the Fancy Pet Rock show. We were there just a little while and I knew that he wanted to go. He said, Dad, my rock's just a country rock.

He don't want to go too far. He don't care for the glitter and the lights don't want to be a big rock star. What you don't know about, don't know. I'm in love with my bedrock. What you don't know about, don't know. I'm in love with my pet love." Business notifications, out of hand, Thrive Command Center keeps your customer emails,

texts, and social messages all in one place, so you never miss a message. Small business runs better on Thrive. Get it free today at Thrive THRYV.ca. Terms and conditions apply. Free plans have limited functionality. Next episode we will be joined by Amanda or Teeze. This is Josie Tuss. A little bit about Amanda. Amanda or Teeze is a Houston-based non-binary poet, GoaMan, who I have the pleasure of working with in a house. Our office is in a house, I don't know why it has to say that, but it just feels like family.

And I'm really excited to have Amanda on the show. We have a lot of fun together and I'm excited to extend that fun to Taylor and our guests. And it's gonna be fucking rad. Yeah, Amanda's a very funny person and I love her to death. So I'll be good. Awesome. I want you to picture this. Okay. A cavernous bank in South Africa.

We're in the city of Durban, South Africa. Okay. And vaulted ceiling, stained glass, beautiful design. You're like an old-style bank where it's just like, sure, Art Nouveau, the teller desks or gorgeous mahogany wood, blah, blah, blah. It's echoing sound in there, the sound of people talking, of people walking,

la la la, hustle and bustle, it's the sound of people talking, of people walking, loud, loud, a hustle and bustle, it's the middle of the day. And there's a teller who's there, pretty young thing. It's like, what? Stop. I'm tired. I'm tired. I'm so tired. It's a pretty young thing at the top. You can't cure me, cure me, keep me keen. Thank you, man. Everything, everyone. Exactly. And we see this kind of dashing gentleman with a big handlebar mustache come up to the bank attendant there and they have exchanged a nice pleasantry and somehow for some reason the man who has approached the bank teller puts a bag on the desk in front of them, and the teller pretty young thing starts filling

the bag with wads of cash. Very interesting, huh? Very interesting. Yeah, very interesting behavior, but that behavior is because this handlebar mustash-y old man has a revolver in his hand. He's very calmly, very politely holding up the bank teller. Please put all the cash in there. No big deal. The bank, like I mentioned, is bustling, it's hustling, stained glass, gorgeous, all above us. Yes, hustling, bustling, talking, walking.

He rolls the top of the bag, just this paper grocery bag, almost grabs it. Puts on a chip clip. it fresh yeah yeah yeah and makes this way to the door where security guard sees him notices that he came in quite quickly and got everything out doesn't notice the revolver obviously nor did he notice all the cash being put into the bag instead the security guard opens the door for the gentleman and says, have a good day, sir. Great service, right here. A fantastic service. Out walks the mustachioed robber and by the Bing, by the boom, he's robbed the bank.

Past tense. And that's it. Robbed the bank. He gets in the car that he rented from the airport, drives calmly back to the airport, gets on his flight back to Johannesburg, where he, the next day returns to his job as a police officer in the Johannesburg police force. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, okay, yeah, of course. What? Huh? Taylor, I'm about to tell you the story of a very infamous South African bank robber, who this is just a glimpse of the start of his story because not only did he rob banks relatively politely as a police officer in disguise,

but he was sentenced to serve time in jail from where he conducted a prison break with two other men to create a even more infamous gang that went on a spree of bank robberies in the 1980s in South Africa. Okay. To the delight of South African media and population. Oh, you've got folk heroes. Steel from the, Steel from the, that we give to the poor.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the poor Oh, yes, yes, yes, right itself didn't didn't quite do the give to the poor thing but stealing from the rich and yes, you know Yeah, shooting just a few people here and there nothing too serious. We all who on us? Who am I know? You just want to go ape shit. Yeah, come on calmly go ape So I got it. They didn't have red dead redemption back then to channel those urges. Right. Yeah. This is the story of the infamous stonder gang. Does it ring a bell? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, I'm down. I'm down. That sounds really, really interesting. Okay. So you would be surprised to know not at all that my primary

knowledge of both Derby and Joe Hattensper comes from the real host types of Durban and the real host types of Joe But otherwise so I've seen glimpses of you know a particular affluent version of those places and the scenery there of But other than that, I don't really know that much about either city. I don't know much about South Africa at all, to be honest. No, I mean either. I know I know like the broad outlines of the major beats of their political history, even the very broad strokes of apartheid Mandela. I watch the movie about Stephen Beekacon, you know, these things. Yeah, but other than that, this is gonna be something of an education for me. And this story also seems like particularly juicy. So, why don't we go ahead and I'll tell you a little bit.

It sounds it, it sounds it. About this Andre Stander. Andre Stander, Stander, to his nearest. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, Rabbi's, Ban Crabri's are fun, Betsy. So yeah. I said like way back when we were discussing Desert Islands,

that there's an element of like wishful film into both the Desert Island because it like, it opens up this great imaginary scenario of what would you do and how would you do it and all that and would you are you capable are you ring what records would you are you up to it are you are you man or woman enough for the job are you gender non binary enough for the job all of these big these big questions like a and I think that there's like a commonality with the bank robbery story is because you start thinking like it's again It's this idea that like all you have to do is one thing just one thing really well And then you're set for life

Which is exactly what we were talking about before right? Totally. Yeah. Dream in some way one big score one big heist. That's all you need It's one of those things that you like to watch the heist come together, right? You like to think about like how would I do it? Could I do it? Could I keep a... All you've got to do is just be real, real polite and keep your face toward the teller and just... Do you know how you've got to hold the gun casual?

So people won't notice that you're holding a gun, hold it like... You may hold a pant or something, but you are holding a gun, you know? It's... Could you could you could you pull it off? Do you think you could pull it off? This is... and also I want to stipulate... Let's go air a specific so you don't have to worry about like exploding Die packs or yes, Wi-Fi

Fucking microchip behind the dogs here. No this shit. Okay. Just just good old fashioned 80-style handgun robbery Do you think you could do it? This isn't shando away and criminate me. This is not on the record It's being courted by some on the record. I could totally do it. Yeah Sick eyes. Just got a terrible soul evil. Yeah, so it's scheming. Yeah, always scheming record. I could totally do it. Yeah sick eyes. It's got a terrible soul evil Yeah, so it's scheming. Yeah, always scheming. Could you could you do it? I don't like guns. That would be I don't like guns I don't like guns. I'd have to use a sharp knife Seed bombs It would have to be a gun dude

I would have to when you're gonna run him in to see by a glitter bomb To be a gun you'd be silly not to use a gun. Yeah. I don't think I'd like to do it but what's my role though? I just can't I just don't know what my role is. Wait, wait you. Oh, that's right. Yeah. What do I do? What's my point? I could just like just smooth-ting I could just be like call the ember. Man call the Uber. You're not on my fucking rob the bank team anymore. You're leaving too many loose hands here. And I'm gonna kill the Uber driver now.

I would probably be like gunman number three who's just like, I'm mostly there as an empty threat. I'm just kind of there to make like, oh, that looks like a fun game, little girl. What's it called? Well, there's this like some crying little girl who's pissed herself and she's holding her eye pattern or whatever. I'll just be like, go.

I like Fruit Ninja. Yeah, I make video games. That's my role. That's my role. That's what I'm doing. In that capacity, yes, I think I could do it very well. Yeah. Hahaha.

Mertle Porter, murder reporter. Look it up. It's good. Look it up. You have to download Red but hold on. Your name is all over it. No, I think there's a deep fascination and love of big robber stores. I mean, body and Clyde, right there.

Like, they could become infamous in this way of, like, faults are kind of excused. And- Because they're outlaws. Because they're outlaws. It's the Bindi Joho thing, right? Like, we need to, I guess, maybe in way feel okay about like enjoying and identifying with these people. So we sand off a bunch of their very obvious rough edges. Yeah. Most of them end up murdering people as one point or another. You know?

Yeah. So our dude, Andre, Stander. So Stander is born and trans-, South Africa in 1946. November 22nd, so coming up. Andre Stander is born to a major general in the South African police force. His father's name is Francois Jacobus Stander. And he's from a fairly well-to-do Afrikaans white, if you didn't guess already, he's white. Family, he's a bit of a bad boy. His dad desperately wants him to be on the police force, that he's kind of, everything is about that.

Here's your Christmas gift for that. Here's this bad boy. Let's put the bad boys on the police force. No, right, great idea. I'm sure you got a whole story about how that's a good idea, Kevin. Yeah, exactly. And this kid is maybe not in the lap of luxury,

but certainly as a white South African born in 1946, South Africa, everything is built for him. Right. And yet, he still somehow finds a way to fail what is called the matric exam, which is essentially a high school graduation exit exam. matriculation. He should be able to pass us with flying colors. Like there is no reason why he should fail and yet bad boy finds a way. Unfortunately though, he really wasn't thinking this out because this gives his father the leverage to say, well you failed. Well now you have to ice-skid fucking cop. Now you are going to the Pretoria Police College. So

Love you son, head off, da da da. A few years there, and in 1964, Andre is the best recruit of his graduating class. I was gonna say there are sometimes where people like really respond to that kind of structure. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So sure, I'm trying to withhold judgment on saying things like Chalking a crook in a crook school and of course he excels, you know what I mean?

Yeah, right. Yeah, but without without see because you like listen Well, I said it, but listen, I want to give everybody the benefit of the doubt before I hear the story So please continue fair enough. That's very very wise very wise He graduates top of his class. He gets an assignment in the criminal investigation department in Kempton Park, which is a suburb of Johannesburg. Okay. And by the time he is 31,

he has quickly risen through the ranks to make captain. Mazeltaf. He's very accomplished between the police college and this placement. He did have military service that he completed in Angola, which sounds like it's pretty standard for any police college graduates to do some type of military service outside of the country at this time in particular. He marries a young woman who he's met and after two years they get a divorce. Her name is Leoni but she goes by the name Becky. But Becky is spelled B-E-K-K-I-E. Becky? Okay. So they were quickly divorced. They separated. Andre married somebody else that dissolved.

And him and Becky got married yet again. Oh, they got back together. They got back together, yes. You was missing those breckies with Becky. I, I guess so. I guess so. It was not a lasting second attempt because they did eventually get divorced again.

Who about us? Right, yeah. We love love. We love love. Yeah. What's the worst you can do? Get divorced again? Then they're done that. So it's a second time. Yeah, exactly. The stuff is already divided. It's great. So you can kind of tell that even though he has a very successful professional life, as a police officer, perhaps his personal life is a little harder for him to manage and to feel stable in. He fits the exact profile of the victim of a saw trap. If you don't mind me saying, a lot of like burned out alcoholic cops with like bad homie

who aren't, you know, hello, hello Andre I've noticed that you're not paying attention to your wife you know a lot of those a lot of those things oh yeah yeah you're right you're right but instead of that creepy saw voice it's the lure of Frank robbery I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Did you like my, did you like my jigsaw impression? I've never done that before before. I was. Thank you. I'm debuting it. Debuting in this post Halloween episode.

I haven't even seen Saw, and I'm like, whoa, fuck. Let's pull it out the best endorsement. I have no idea what that means for me, so I loved it. So he's pulled into this life of crime and the way that it happens. So there's a few reports that I think perhaps we're caching in on some of the sensationalist elements of it that gave the story such that he would rob banks

on his lunch break from his police officer duties. Okay. Yeah, he would knock off a quick bank, have a goger, and get back on the beat. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Which as sensational and wonderful as that sounds, most likely did not happen. What a shame. What he did do though was on his days off of work, he would drive to the airport and catch a flight to Durban, which is a short little puddle jump or distance, and he would immediately leave the airport and the beginning he would rent a car, and he would go to any number of banks, rob them as politely as I described, smiling handsome white guy walking through a hustling bustling bank, no big deal.

And he would go back to the airport in Durban and catch the next flight out and be home that very same day, no big deal. Wow, Yeah. Very, very efficient, very pre-911 airport strategies there. I'd have to say considering he could fly with a gun too, which is... They were offended if you didn't bring a gun on back then. A gun and a cigarette. You better have two lit cigarettes sticking out of each barrel of the gun, do you? Yeah. You better have two lit cigarettes sticking out of each barrel of the gun, do you? And he did this for three years. Okay.

Yeah. And how is he explaining this sudden shift in his fortunes? Cause he's, if he's knocking off banks for three years, right. He's going to have a lot of conspicuous extra money kicking around. No. So he got away with, with they assumed to be a hundred thousand brand, which, well, I'll say this, because I found a source that says a white middle manager at that time

would have had a yearly salary of 24,000 brand. Okay. So he's making quite a f**king amount of money. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot of money. And there really is no, he doesn't spend it extremely lavishly at this point. They think that he probably hit it somewhere. Duffel bag in the yard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit of, yeah, a little bit of hair, a little bit there. Yeah, yeah, maybe he bought a nice new car. He's a real click gear head. Barry, some of it put some of it in gold.

Yeah, yeah, bye Becky and nice, a nice gold bracelet. Nice J-T-R-A, yeah. Keep it really simple. Yeah, yeah, you don't need platinum bangles get gold. Yeah, you're fine, you're fine. He was very successful at this. One because he kept so calm in any of the robberies, as you can imagine, the other element here is that

he knew the exact way that the police would handle investigations. He knew where the security cameras were. He knew how a bank would run its security. Pretty intimately considering he was a captain in the Johannesburg, the source. He knew I assume also on the receiving end of that, what the evidence cleanup would look like,

how it would be stored, how what kinds of things you would need to do to obscure or destroy or falsify evidence if needed, etc. And also, I think the story reveals like how, just in a saintly different of an era, even though it was only 50 years ago, like, he could wear a hat and a pair of sunglasses and a wig and be like a whole new person. Like, that's how it was back then.

You hear these stories where like, someone shows up on the farm and it's like, mama, papa, it's me. And you're like, well, you have different eyes and race from my son, but sure. Yeah. You look exactly like little Jimmy. Come here. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's exactly that. People only got awareness of facial features in a boat. 1996. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, face blindness was a thing. Yeah. So he was, he was extremely stealthy, did it for the three years, and nobody really caught on until he started running that goddamn mouth of his. Nah. The story goes that he got drunk one night

and he told another officer in the force who was a dear friend of his. Dumb fuck. His best friend named Kar van Deventer. It's like a Dutch van in the middle of the lower. Van Deventer kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, like a lowercase van. Yeah, yeah. Who, I think you'll like this. He worked for the Bureau of the lower. Band adventure kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, like a lowercase van. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think you're like this. He worked for the Bureau of State Security, which gets shortened to Boss. He works for Boss. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, absolutely. I would be like, that's, I'm not much of a suit and tie guy, but if you were like part of the Bureau of State Security,

parentheses, boss, I would just have to walk around I'm not much of a suit and tie guy, but if you were like part of the Bureau of State Security parentheses boss I would you just have to walk around and like a fucking skinny suit and black tie all day hard to be a special agent or go under cover But that's the risk you take to work with boss So Andre stonder starts blabbing to his friend saying hey Do you ever think that you could you know know, like rob a banker, whatever? Like, when you were a man. Oh, but like we were, like we were, but he actually, he actually did it.

He's disclosing it. Silly boy. Yes, yes. Later, this friend who was talking about the quote-unquote confession from Stander said, quote, he admitted to me that the first few times were sheer agony. But after that, he couldn't stop. He began to enjoy himself.

He used to watch the faces of his victims. He was laughing up his sleeve when he committed his robberies. There was an element of sadistic bullying. I guess so. I mean, I guess I have to be willing to accept that this bank robber, this white South African bank robber has some flaws. But... Perchants. Perchants. So yeah, I guess there is like a kind of getting off on like the power dynamic of it all.

If you're a cautious sort, you do one bank robbery and then you laundry the money really well and you invest, right? Right. Yeah. you laundered the money really well and you invest, right? Like you need to knock off a bank, a bank, a bank, a bank, a bank, a bank until you're giving this much more than the national salary, right? Yeah, but if you're addicted to the adrenaline, the money's not the point. Give the money away. Throw in the power.

From the power that you have over these people in this moment, right? Which is like, you know, not a very nice thing, but like, it makes me wonder what all he said to this guy. I know. Well, one of the things that he did say was, well, what I do is I keep a car at the airport and I keep all my items in there. I keep my wings and my blah blah revolver and dead at a, and then I just collect it at the airport. And so his friend, Deventer, kind of like smiles and nods

and is like, okay, well, let me think about it. This is like, this is a big thing. If I am interested in doing this, I wanna have some time to sit with this. I'm gonna bubble bath and ruminate. I'm a Virgo, I wanna sleep on this. Every good decision involves at least one good night's sleep. If you manage it, I understand that something needs to be on the fly, but something like this. Every good decision involves at least one good night's sleep. If you manage it, I understand

that something you do on the fly, but something like this. A good friend, I suppose. He doesn't totally jump the gun and like raid the man. Instead, he goes to the airport. They stake out a car that they see, stonder go-to. And then once he has left left the car they go and they open it up and they see in the trunk that there is a balaclava, a number of wigs, a false beard. What a seedy boy. A false mustache. Is there a spirit gum for the beard? It hasn't been reported but I assume.

Okay, okay, go on, go on. I didn't it hasn't been reported, but I assume And the boot there are license plates that have false numbers. They don't run to anything and a role of masking tape. Oh my god Why would you this is so much incriminating evidence? All right there that you've told this other police. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe what is what a silly boy Was he trying to entrap himself? No, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's, yeah. That's two things. Number one, as Agatha Christie wrote in and then there were none. Oh, okay. Every great artist ultimately yearns for recognition. I think this probably some component of that.

Yeah. And then number two, don't drink dumbass. You're straight edge. Now that you rob banks all the time, you are straight edge. Yeah. No loose lip synchshamps. So it wasn't until two days after they staked the car that they went ahead and they intercepted

stonder at the airport. And they arrested him in the arrivals lounge. And on his person, he had... That's interesting. 4,000 Rand, Abala Klaava, a revolver, and a false mustache and beard in his luggage. And they're like, my dude. He traveled.

The beard is really, how many beers do you think he has? Oh. He changes them out. Oh yeah, yeah. That's part of the, like they dream. The bottom rush, yeah. Going beard shopping today, but I'll never tell. Sir, you're doing another play.

Another play where you need four false beards. Is that right? Why can I come and see these plays, the beard brothers? Oh, you know, it's just I can't. Oh, he and he scampers off with a fully erect penis because he loves it. He just loves it. So he is tried in court and he has found guilty on 15 charges sentenced to a total of 75 years in prison, but the sentences are run concurrently. So pretty much telescopes down to 17 years that he'll be in jail. After the trial, his father was quoted as saying, I forced him

to become a policeman against his wishes. He should have left the force years ago. Oh, that is awfully convenient for you to say now, sir. Yeah. What is slapping the face? Oh, I wish I hadn't pressured you so hard to become a cop and devote your entire life to that. Oh, well, oopsie. What's done is done. Someone should have done some of about that guy, am I right? Yeah. Come on. Also just like very martyr. Like it's oh my fault. Also just like very martyr like it's all my fault. Oh So he's sentenced to the 17 years in a maximum security prison named Zonderwater when he is in jail. Of course this story has been printed in the newspapers

It's on every news channel in South Africa because it's pretty juicy. A police officer on his days off, or if you're telling the story in another way, on his lunch breaks, of course, because it's so juicy, it spirals into folktale so quickly. So, someone makes a joke about it, and that joke suddenly becomes a true part of the story. Right, yeah, he robs a bake on his lunch break and then he goes back to that bank as the detective that afternoon and the teller is like, you know, they ask the teller, what did the man

look like and she stares at him deep and says, just like you, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But you're a clean shaven, it couldn't have been you. You're not wearing a beard. You're not wearing it. Yeah, be a beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard. A beard A convincing prosthetic makeup and facial hair could put one by me. If you like put on some sort of weird voice and effect, I probably wouldn't be able to clock it. Oh, okay, good to know. If you ever want to do something fun for my birthday. I know. Who is that weird old troll man who but I do think that there's something to be said about like a relatively attractive 30 something white man in South Africa can probably get away with anything at this point in history. Do you know what I mean?

Like he looks like the good guy and so therefore he can kind of and if you walk into any space with enough confidence and authority then you can kind of do whatever you want. Yeah, I know I got you. With enough confidence and a good or not even that good disguise, you can do whatever the fuck you want. And if you're a white dude. That typically helps. So the story is out there, it's big news.

He kind of falls into this genre of the love affair that we have with bank robbers. Yes. And in his testimony, when he's on trial, in terms of like his defense, he's trying to paint a story that will give him the best light in the juxtaposed eyes. And therefore in, you know, the society's eyes as well. It's all storytelling, man. It's all storytelling. It's all storytelling. Yeah. One of the things that comes out of his trial and his defense is this rationale that he is let down and demoralized by the apartheid government. And so he's trying to like get back a government by shurking his duties as a police officer.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, good, good, good. To paint this picture of the misused tool of the apartheid government that he's trying to paint. He tells certain people, he's not under oath when he says this, but it makes its way into the folkloric story, it makes a town in South Africa, where the Suite youth uprising occurred. There are many spots where this uprising happened, and this was one of them. Have you heard of this 1976 Suite youth uprising? Yeah. Okay. The general gist of it is

that the apartheid government had been set up in like the late 40s to separate white South Africans from Black South Africans. And a big element of it was about education. Because you know if you control education, then you control like the future of society. Yeah. You can control generations to education. So there was a system put in place in 1953 that made it so that black South Africans had a curriculum and had a school, a separate school system that was intended to prepare them and develop them for the role of laborer and worker.

prepare them and develop them for the role of laborer and worker. And that was, that was it, maybe servant, like a very, very racist, a very, very debilitating set of standards. And it continues without a lot of, I mean, obviously protest, but in terms of organized and governmental pushback, there's not a lot. And get to 1976 when the apartheid government takes it even a step further with this segregation and starts to enforce that all teaching in Black South African schools has to happen in either English or Afrikaans. Right, so colonial languages as opposed to indigenous languages? Yes, exactly. And this was the case even if instructors or students did not know Afrikaans. And the rationale behind it was,

well, if you're being instructed on how to be a laborer, worker, or a servant, your big boss might know English or might know Afrikaans. And so that's why it's important for you to understand it and learn. Oh my god. Yeah. This is so stupid because there's one language that can do it all in its Esperanto. True enough!

True enough! That can you name us all also Faka Paratype? Big time. Big, big time. So when they were trying to enforce this 1976 rule that Afrikaans in English be taught, it's also important to note that something that were, there was a dire shortage of classrooms for black students.

The teacher student ratios were abysmal, and they were just getting worse and worse. It went from one teacher to 46 students in 1955 to one teacher to 58 students in 1967. Oh, oh, oh, oh, how do you give quality instruction to 58 students? Yeah, do you remember the names of 58 students? You don't.

At this point in the late 70s, spending annually for each student, a white student would receive 644 grand for their public education, and a black student was budgeted 42 grand. Wow! 644 compared to 42. Wow! Oh, Jesus, that's awful. The facilities were abysmal. There was high schools that were intended for a capacity of like 3,000 students, and they were holding upwards of 200,000 students. And in 1976, with the implementation of the Afrikaans directive that everything had to be taught

in Afrikaans or English, there was a student protest. And at this time, 1976, a part-time government, any type of liberation movement or protest was totally banned. It was not allowed in any way, shape or form. Yeah, yeah. And so in the town of Soweto, there was a student protest that begun. It was triggered by the teaching having to be in Afrikaans, but like I say, there was a lot of other stuff to protest, a lot of other stuff that needed to be rectified. And the class of 1976, bravely took to the streets in peaceful protest,

signs, chance, the whole thing, and the apartheid government riot protection, quote unquote, opened fire on them and killed unarmed innocent children. Oh. Pretty fucking gnarly. Yeah, really terrible. The official figures were that 22 people were killed, but reports, other reports have

estimated that it was somewhere up to 200. And the numbers really hard to determine concretely because the apartheid government held a lot of the news organizations in the palm of their hands. So what was being reported was what they would allow to be reported. They were also doing the record keeping them sure. Exactly.

And like I said, it was such a big protest that it spread to other towns. So it left Soweto and it landed in the town of Timbisa, where supposedly understonder was stationed as riot police. Right. The tributary is flowed back into the river. According to a few stories from stonder, he was forced in that position to kill an unarmed man. There's other reports that say that he killed upwards of 20 unarmed people. The bulk of the story is that the savagery kind of unhinged him,

what he was forced to do and see made it so that he could no longer function in society. And so he turned to... It's a bank robbing. To bank robbing. Yeah. As kind of a like fuck you to a part-time government, like, I'm not your pawn. I'm gonna fuck with you.

It's interesting. Yeah. Interesting. It's an interesting angle, isn't it? Well, it would be a very convincing argument if... If? He were actually stationed at at Timbisa. I was wondering at the way that you were phrasing that. It is alleged that he has claimed to be at Timbisa.

Yes. So yeah, okay. But it doesn't really matter where you actually were. It doesn't matter if people believe you were. Exactly. But I supposed to claim it in the way that he did is pretty nice. No, that's what I mean. So I'm not going to defend it.

So if you told me that it was like one of the youth protesters robbing banks, I'd be like, OK, well that checks out. But for this guy to be like, he's a little bit of a blow in here, isn't he? He's a little bit of a, listen, I can't stop robbing banks and buying beards. They said I shouldn't set up a beard outlet at the Wigs store down in South Africa. I said, you don't, you don't know what I know about the market. There's a great untapped market and you get Durban, you get Johannesburg, you get Pretoria,

those are the three big cities you know after that everything Everything the fashion trickles out from the cities Fashion the fake beard fashion so yeah, and oh just a follow-up note on the on the youth uprising of Soeto it occurred June 16th 1976 and now in South Africa June 16th is National holiday known as Youth Day. So, Stander has this very kind of elaborate, very kind of emotional story that's like plucking at the heartstrings of the nation. This is the late 70s. The apartheid government is in its twilight.

Tensions are extremely high. And just like the bank robbery being kind of like this wonderfully sparkly story for folks of any nation, but add the turmoil. Yeah, we've got a Joker backstory. Yeah, now we have exactly a tragic villain. Who else, who better, right? And I have to hear it as I might say,

a hero if you want to look at it that way, you know, it's that perfect. Yeah, who we have created. And embodiment of our shared angst about this horrible thing that we that we endured right? Yeah. But he didn't endure it, he wasn't even there. No, he was. Just like, he was just a guy who like, shrubbed banks. Yeah, that's brutal. Man, okay. But it feeds the myth and people fucking love it. If it's true or not, people love the story, right? So the story is not over yet in any way, shape or form. No, there's the unionized story.

I'm let to believe. Yes, this is correct. But I think it is worth mentioning before we get to the unionization that as iconic as he's become in South African news and history, of course he's not going to be a perfect character because when he robs banks. But to there's another element here. He's also accused of raping two teenage girls. Okay.

Yeah, I don't really want to go into the details, but it involves him claiming to be a fashion photographer and taking photos. But he had seemed like such a moral man prior to him. I know, just robbing banks, that's no big deal. And those photos appear later in Stander's story when police find them in a home of his. Now, like all of this story, there's a little bit of this and there's a little bit of that. And everyone's adding a little bit of seasoning and a little bit

of sauce in the telling to taste. Exactly. He has these two rape allegations. There is a crime reporter, a female crime reporter at the time. Her name is Chris Stein Barlow, and she actually refuses to print that story because the story comes from the South African police. And she's convinced that they're actually planting the story and planting evidence to discredit him and make him look bad because he's making them look bad and speaking out against them. Exactly. You've really cut to the kernel of what this show is about in this one. Right. It's very, it's very, it's the brief, really fits the brief. It's very infamous. Yeah. but in this way, very, very, very sweet, very about the story and how the story becomes something bigger than the story, becomes bigger than the person

who created this story, but also like how much of that is just us believing things that it was opportune for someone to make us believe. Yeah, and we haven't even gone to the gang. So let's hop in. We haven't even gone to the gang, not even here yet, haven't even gone to the gang. So let's have fun. We haven't even gone to the gang, so I don't even hear you yet. Let's take me to the gang. Take it, let's.

Honk on the car. Get off of the gang. It's time to go bowl with the gang. Yeah, nothing like a little heist montage where we get to introduce all the next team of characters. Yeah. So, Stander is in a maximum security prison where he meets Patrick Lee McCall

who is also a bank robber, but also an expert car thief. So that's nice. And networking must be really good in prison, huh? Well, if you're like that kind of person, if you wanna gather the team, where better? They're all under one roof. Cause then he also meets George Allen Hale, who was a bank robber as well out of Pretoria.

Just this kind of like very self-destructive, not self-hating, not too happy young man, who sees in Stander like this kind of like shiny bright, like that's where I wanna be in my teacher. He's got a crush, He's got a crush. He's definitely has a crush, yeah. And, you know, Stander is extremely manipulative.

So when Hale says, I hate South African government, I hate the apartheid. I want, you know, I hate this system. Then- Understandable sentiments. Exactly. Stander is there as well saying, I I agree with you young man. I understand and you know as a police officer

I've seen your file. I think you're quite good at what you do. Oh My god. Oh my god listen. We're not supposed to approach these as critics but I have to say Portfolio fell across my desk. Slow clap, slow. First of all, that's my shot, cheekbones, cheekbones. I was like, is this a modeling portfolio? Oh, and then I got to the part about the aggravated assault and I said, wow.

Oh my gosh. When people say that young people can't, this is, this is, is this 30 under 30? What am I reading? Amazing. Amazing. I got it. Yeah. It was totally that. And looking back on it,

Hale about stonder says, and I quote, he was calculating. He was, I think, beyond emotion. So we're getting a lot of glimpses that the people around this guy seem to read him is something like a psychopath, yes? Yes, yeah. We're without without going full diagnosis or fucking talk getting into the psych of it all to fit it to a loose character profile. We're getting like somewhat sadistic, highly manipulative without emotion.

Yeah, charming. Handsome, Moustache-yote. A Christian bail in American psych, if you give them a fake mustache type. Amen. So now we're three, right? We're McCall, expert Carthie, hailed this disillusioned youth and stonder this calculating psychopath, handsome as fuck. Yes. So it's the late summer of 83. It's stonder and McCall who begin to make some very loud complaints about back pain that they're having. Oh my gosh. I just can't sleep. From Carrie in this conversation, where's this going? Well, what's this bit? It's bad pain bit.

Where's this going? What's this bit? Is Ben being bit? They want to make sure that they can get scheduled to go off-site to leave the prison and visit the physiotherapist to receive relief from such a... You tube chiropractor. Yes, yeah. And so it's Stander and McCall and five other prisoners who are transported to a physiotherapist office. And it's in the waiting room where Stander and McCall

attack the guards who are there to keep watch of them. Right. And they steal the physiotherapists's keys to her oboe, which I don't know what kind of car that is, but it's an oboe, and I love that name, so. That's funny. Yeah. Got it.

I love you actually, actually Vito, I'm pulling it up, oboe, fire. Oh, okay. Let me, let me, oh. So cute. Oh. Look at this little boxy guy all of my like matchbox toy cars look just like this And it's got the cut out headrests where there's like it's just that That's sick. I didn't even notice that that's so cool. You can put your ponytail through that bad boy if you want it

Yeah, yeah, oh Man great car. Sorry. I stolen. This is gonna be my new desktop screen. This Opal. Those are sick headrests. Yeah. So they hop in the Opal and they make their way a few kilometers away from the office and down a dirt road to a farm. And coming out of the house as a father and son, they overpower them. They have a shotgun that they have taken from the prison guards. And they instruct father and son to kindly, if you could, call the local police force and tell them to come out here, you have a complaint about one of your neighbors. And so, toodling down the dirt road, comes a local officer by himself.

Yeah, I think she's going to have to pour out some beer in front of some 15-year-olds or something. Right, exactly. And instead, there's Stander and McCull with a shotgun instructing him to take off his clothes. Yeah, I wonder if maybe. Classic, classic switcheroo. Classic switcheroo. So, Stander puts on the police uniform and gets in the police car. So, they instruct father and son farmers and the police officer to get into the back of the cop car.

See, no, this is no a Josie plan, by the way. The number of witnesses is ballooning exponentially here. Unless you're going to shotgun these people to death, which I hope they don't. I'll tell you right now they don't. They continue down the road, and the whole premise of this idea too is that they need to bail on the getaway car

on the physiotherapist's car. Yes. And they need to kind of switch things around, but they're thinking, you know what? But they've got a fucking hot cop car now. What are they gonna do? I mean, I guess it's the 80s. It's not like, again, they're not gonna fucking turn it off remotely, are they? You know what they're gonna do? They're gonna stop another car that's on the highway, on this deserted highway. They're gonna put the little lights on, whoop whoop whoop whoop whoop

that car very serenely is gonna pull to the side of the road officer. I didn't know my light was out. I'm so sorry. Oh wait, it's Andre Stander and he instructs her at gunpoint to get into the back of the cop car. Lock her in. It's a reconfligado. And takes her car. He's in more way than this is. Now, okay, okay, okay. He's like me when I'm real depressed and I'm playing GTA and I just don't give him.

I'm not doing the story of missions. I'm literally just like, I want to go and steal as much shit as I want to get my star rating up three, four, five. Let me see if I can get the tanks to come in. He wants the tanks. He's ready for the tanks. At this point, he's broken out of prison. So you're going to go hard or you're going to go back.

So my is what go hard. That's true. McCall and Stander lay low for a little bit. Yeah. They're in a suburb of Johannesburg. This is where it's surmised that Stander was able to access his loot from before that he had hidden. The duffle bag and the backyard kind of thing.

Does he regain access to his beard stash? I believe so, yes, I think that has. Good, good thank goodness, few. You need to shake, you need to dry shampoo those things every two days or they lose their luster. It's a lot of work, yeah, yeah, you gotta keep them, you can't bunch them up. No.

Don't keep them in a bag, you gotta lay them out. Check those things in a grocery bag out the fucking foot of your car, no, no, no, no, you gotta air them out, ventilate, you need to take them for walks at least once a bag. You got a lay-em-out. Check those things in a grocery bag out the fucking foot of your car. No, no, no, no. You're gonna air them out. Ventilate. You need to take them for walks at least once a day. This is work. Yeah. Sunkiss those beard locks. It's good stuff. Way more work than a pet rock for sure. Mm-hmm. Oh, it's true. McCall and Stander lay low for a few months until the end of October. When they roll up with a shotgun revolver to a trade education center named Ole Thonston. Like a job fair.

Well, I mean they know who they want. They walk in guns blazing. And oh dear. There's our boy George Hale and he is getting his trade certification taken a little test as you do. Oh, oh, oh, no. Let him let this man live. I quote, I was doing a test at the Oli Funston Trade Test Center and I heard Andre saying, come on Alan, let's go. I looked up and saw the five guards lying face down with Andre and McCall standing over them with their guns drawn.

We ran out, jumped into the Cortina, another car, and drove off with me in the back. Oh, dear. Let's see the Cortina. The Cortina, the Nativity Team, Cortina. Oh, yeah. Oh, do you same car, but longer, same car, but longer? Well, they mean that they got Hale in the back, oh, do you same carbon longer same carbon longer? Well, they mean that's got hail in the back though, right? So that's that's true. We need this we need a four door So yeah, well in the Cortina and we're having off toward Destiny. What what happens next?

They rented a house and a very Upstanding neighborhood of Johannesburg. What are they paying in cash? What is this? Exactly. They just open a double bag and go, oh, you could get away with murder. Literally, you could get away with murder. And it's clear to them that if they live in the lap of luxury, the police will not be looking there.

If they're hiding out a little ding-gee motel, that's where they'll be found. You know, I get making that logic work for you. The police are never gonna suspect me buying this massage chair. This is a little, so you're never gonna check the massage chair as these will be hiding in plain sight.

It's the perfect crime. No. The police are never gonna think I'm gonna buy these girl scout cookies. I think they hate girl scouts, because they're the bad guy. It's amazing. So once they've laid low for a few months and nobody has come in, okay, they start to rob banks.

And over the next two months, they rob 20 banks on one occasion, they rob four banks in one day. This is like porn addiction, huh? Four banks equals four banks is basically what this is. So let's call it what it is. Yeah, but like, say banks is where we're going. Yeah, it's game, this is some soggy biscuit,

but I'm not saying that for it, not this time. Yeah. I would observe that it looks like this is really something they get off on, huh? Like, that's really what it is. Part of it. Nobody needs to rob four banks in one day. They are extremely effective at what they do and what they do is robbing banks. And Hale writes later in life about the about robbing banks. I quote, there were rules. No shouting, no flashing guns, no planning, and no designer violence.

In fact, the outstanding feature of all the robberies was that they went off so calmly that they were actually quite mundane. The object of the exercise was not to terrorize people, but to basically get in and out as quickly as possible, because we were in the process of robbing three or four banks a day. End quote. Keep it simple, stupid. No, no, I've got multiple objections with that, may I? Take it away, am I not? So, okay, so here's my first objection to that is that I don't know if this is an objection,

but I would say that it flies in the face of what we heard earlier about at least Andre being a guy who did get off on terrorizing people. Yeah. His one person did say that. So, you know, perhaps he's maloed out by this point in his bank robbing career, I don't know. And then number two, the other part of me that loves art and loves the creative act makes me sad that like oh it's become so mundane You know this used to be the cease to be love now. We're just going through the motions Trying to recapture that you know is that sad? Oh That is that's tragic really. Yeah, it is this is the point in

All of the publicity that the moniker begins of the stonder gang, or there was a little foray into a hopper gang because they hopped from banks so quickly. I see how that one didn't pick up. It's just not as good. It's just a little like, this detail I saved especially for you, Taylor. Oh, thank you. It has a particular fake mustache that Stander really enjoyed. Was this like, they call it a horseshoe mustache, but I've probably got a little bit of a Fou Manchou situation.

Sure, sure. Just like a big drooping, you know, mustache going on here. It was caught on a security camera and published widely, you know, I suppose like, oh, this will sell papers. Also, people will see his face. I guess that might help. Yeah. What ends up happening is everybody fucking loves the mustache. And that style of mustache becomes extremely popular in South Africa. So hip, so hip. And ironic, I've got my stonder stash. I'm here to stay.

Boom. That's very funny. Yeah. It was clear that the stonder gang was making a fool of the establishment. And the, yeah, yeah, this cop turned bank robber. Just not, not the best look. And now the government is really paying attention

and they really want to stamp this out. So they create a task force specifically to take down the stonder gang. That's what it gets real. Once that task force, because that's the second act. It's headed by Brigadier Mani V Rensberg. You know, he gets in the press and he's like, he's on, he's on borrowed time that stonder. I'm going to take him down. So they're robbing like crazy. They're making Buku Rand. Now they're no longer renting. They're buying luxury houses in

luxury neighborhoods. They have up to three homes. They fill them with the finest designs. Stonders are really big. They eat in the finest gourmet restaurants. Their clothes are the best. They fill their kitchens with champagne. It's just their high class prostitutes are in and out of all three of these homes. It is the life, the luxury life that they are living, bank robbing at its finest, and still they're not

ever really caught. Well, until. Yeah, wait, because we know too, because we already convicted this guy for for wearing beards and robbing banks. Right. A bunch of people with beards start going around robbing banks again. They're not at least not. Well, I guess they roll up and stolen cars and they peel out so quickly. like it's not... They don't know where he is. That's the thing is, I guess, the mustache is so convincing. They really fucked up the facial recognition.

Of the early 80s in South Africa. At one point, it is confirmed. This is not a folktale. It is confirmed that the stonder gang robbed a bank under which was stationed then Rinsberg's task force headquarters. So that's just for fun. Yeah. That's just me. That's me when I'm playing Grand Theft Auto with like high level awareness of the mission. I'm actually looking to improve my strategies, looking for shortcuts. That's once those men's kick in and you're good to go, or maybe. Yeah.

I think I mentioned this in the very beginning scenario, but there's an instance to it's caught on tape where security guard opens a door for the gentlemen as they leave. Like for some reason, they are invisible in the South African banks. That's so funny. I wonder what that's about. So bizarre. So it doesn't take too long for them to realize that like, okay, there's this task force.

We can rob them under their nose maybe once. We're not, we're not going to be able to do that twice. Things are starting to get a little hot, we'll say. And only now, only now, only now, and they need to get out of South Africa. So the plan is they're going to buy a yacht and they're going to... I'm looking, yes. I love all these plans. I really am.

I can't. There's been a few of these. Here's the plan. Seen's now. Yeah. Great stuff. Continue. Right.

They're going to buy a yacht and they're going to sail it to Florida. They're going to dock in Fort Lauderdale and start new lives under false identities completely under the radar. This is all part of the Bank Robert fantasy. You go Red Dead Redemption, they're trying to get to Tahiti. Yeah. It's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, but it's Fort Lauderdale, which seems not like a good idea. Tahiti, Tahiti, the continent, okay, let's just say. Okay. So in order to get things arranged in Florida, the plan is that stonder gets a fake passport, a fake Australian passport, and he flies two-fort-lotter dail to set things up. Okay. And in the meantime,

Hale and McCall are still in one of the safe houses, but things have kind of leaked. The task force has heard from some of the staff of the yacht that some very high-rolling mustachioed men are trying to get out of the country. They do a little bit more research. They find one of the safe houses. The police descend on it in a huge raid. The only person who's there is McCall. It's kind of a dire shootout to the end for McCall. They throw in like tear gas grenades

and they're like, come out with your hands up, but in South African accents. And McCall is fucking naked, strapped with guns and he's like, I'm not going out without a fight and he's just like running around this empty mansion. Oh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Shooting guns, getting shot up. It's his, his, his chow young fat.

Yes. It's his, he's the second act of, he's the, he's the one. His bullet-ridden body is found in the house after the shootout. He's completely black naked. He went out doing what he loved. Do it. And what more can you say about that?

When you're doing this type of thing, you know that there's only one of two ways that you're gonna die and you know that one of them's more likely of them the other, you know? Yeah, yeah. You either get to Tahiti or you don't. Right, yeah, or for the other two. To say the same.

They're the same picture, okay? So, Hale is not in the house, but he does hear about McCall's death. And so, he hops on a plane with a false passport and he gets himself to the Greek island of Hydra. Sure. Why not? Yeah?

Yeah. Why not? It sounds like not here. Let's go. But then he starts kind of puddle jumping around He gets up to England and then he gets to Spain, but he's ran out of money and He gets encroached with a con man who should be able to get him back to England where he has money stashed But the con man of course conned him and sells him out to the authority. Like a lady, you live by the sword,

you die by the sword folks. It's a classic tale of the Gryft. He is arrested in England and serves time in England. And then he's extradited to South Africa where he serves more time. As good as they sounds like he probably owes time in a few places. Yeah, yeah, no exactly.

Stonder hears about McCall's death when he's still in Fort Lauderdale. And he's like, okay, well I guess I'm not going back. I got to figure my shit out in the Tahiti of Fort Lauderdale. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Fort Lauderdale, city. Absolutely. Fort Lauderdale City of Options.

Yeah. You can run your shell company out of here, sure. So he purchases a car, a used car, from just kind of a regular old used car sales lot. Have a mighty of fallen. Well, you know, start, you know, you gotta build. It's okay. Just be okay.

It's fine. He's Grand Theft auto rules, right? He is driving around in this car and he is stopped by a four-lotter-dale police officer who says, you know, your registration is off. Can I see your license? It's found that his license is certainly counterfeit. But, Stander has this whole kind of story that he is an Australian author by the name of Peter Harris. And he's there on business research blah blah blah. I'm a writer from Maine, don't you know my book's Missouri Chastain? It's a good, it's a good graph, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. The four-letter-dale police don't clock him. And so, they bring him into the station, they kind of write him up and then they let him go. They have no other pretense. They impound his car though. He's used Mustang. I thought you were going to say his mustache and I was like, oh my god. Is he okay? Yeah, he loves his mustache. His mustache was trending all over the faces of South Africa. So they let who they think is Peter Harris go. Stonder is without a car and he's upset. He's a mustache-y old gear head.

So he breaks in to the Fort Lauderdale police impound lot and steals back his used car Mustang. These are GTA rules. I knew it. I knew it. Get it back. Go the same one, get for him. Yeah, yeah, he liked the car. And he takes it back to the used car salesman and says, I love this car, I don't love the color. Could you possibly repaint it for me?

Here's a catch. Just literally how you get away from the cops and grab the computer. Yeah. You got your car repainted. Do you think it's based off of stonder? Maybe that's it. I think the stonder state might need like a 0.01 cent

royalty every time they move a unit or something. I don't know. Everything seems to be going smoothly. The Ford Lauderdale police have not been notified, even though South African government officials realize that they're trying to get to Florida. So they have sent word to Florida, but the APB hasn't trickled down to the beat cops in Fort Lauderdale.

I love when you speak Lauderdale in a way. Thank you. What has hit the general public in Fort Lauderdale, specifically the used car lot salesmen, he sees a picture of Stonter in the newspaper and he was like, I recognize that guy. And that guy is a funny accent. South Africa funny accent. Ha ha ha. He knocks his cup of coffee over and it spills onto the face on the paper in the shape of a beer. Oh my god. You know, it was the guy with the beads. Got it. So the used car salesman, I love this detail. He calls his lawyer first.

And he's like, what should I do? And the lawyer's like, I don't know. Call the police. Yeah. So then the police are notified. They figure out where Stander is staying, which is just like a little apartment complex, small kind of two story situation,

and they do a stakeout. They have the place completely surrounded, and they are waiting and waiting and waiting, but no one shows up. Until finally, this hollow, cheeked guy rolls up on a bicycle on this old mountain bike with like mere flat tires and they're like who the fuck is this fool? Sure.

Until one of the police officers is like that's Andre Stander. That's no fool. That's understonda. And he had borrowed a bike because his car was getting repainted I love the narrative tracking there. It's beautiful. It's as these small details paying. I mean, it's just it's the real-life story I can't make this enough Yes, too, and so the officer approaches him and Yes, true. And so the officer approaches him and

Stonder says I give up you got me no one could ever get me, but you you got me here. Yeah. How can I manipulate this? Your buddy now I've never met it into like like you take me yeah, yeah, and then as the officer is trying to book him Stonder scuffles with him, attempts to take his gun. Gun, yeah. The gun goes off and stonder is shot, fatally. He bleeds out in the driveway of this piddly little apartment complex and fort Lauderdale, Florida, before the ambulance can come to revive him. You live by the sword you die by the sword. And That is the life. That's where she goes, huh? Of Andre Stander.

Do you draw his one bad scuffle away from? Oh my god. From accidentally shooting yourself. Yeah. Don't try this at home. Folks, no, don't try this at home. No. No. Don't try this on at home. No. But I'm sure he thought that it would go his way because it always had before. It always had. Yeah. So, Hale, who as we discussed was imprisoned and brain- and then extradited back to South Africa. Right him. Yeah. He is released from prison in May of 2005 and he creates a new life for himself as a motivational speaker. Good.

So good. His catchphrase, if you will, because we all need a calf phrase is we must stop the violence. A motto to get through. He speaks around South Africa to businesses, to youth, to anybody he will pay to hear him. That, you know, he made some horrible decisions in his life, but he's, he's able to change things and get things back on track and... Good for him, good for him. I always love when it was like anybody in a story like this gets a happy ending.

So good for him. Yeah, yeah. And he has since written a book about his time in the Stander Gang. And he writes about Andre as he refers to him. The fact that Andre was a former police captain suited the romantic notion of good-turned-bad against bad. And that's where sensationalism became hysteria as never before or since. Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah. There's an African, South African rock band called Jack Hammer.

They've recorded a song Don't Go To Fort Lauderdale, which is a ballad about Andre Stander. And just good life advice, honestly. Right, yeah. Right. And 2003, there's a major motion film called Stander. That's the, you know, life and times of Andre Stander directed by

Bronwyn Hughes and Andre Stander is played by Thomas Jane Tom, yeah, Thomas Jane. He's an attractive You know white dude and moustache. You had white dude. Yeah interesting stuff interesting times Yeah, thank you for sharing that I feel very edified by that and it inspires me to up my game going in the season four There I were here. Where were her? Yeah, it is a pretty just the way that he Has been like canonized I think is I mean, but we have like Bonnie and Clyde and GTA like it's all over Yeah, everyone needs their version of that right? Yeah every every culture every community that he's in the zeitgeist at all is so

reflective of the Society at the time and like it may be perhaps an outlet that they needed like ups They were upset. I'm sure everybody was upset with the government because shit was going to pot. So this was just a kind of a light, seemingly light, happy story to cling onto. But of course, the truth is a little dirtier than that. It tends to be, yeah.

How many times do you think I said the effort? I don't know. I like how we're the first two at the front. So I think uh, fuck it dude, you know? Yeah, fuck it, fuck it. Oh, fuck it out. Oh wow. Oh, fuck, fuck, fuck. Thanks for listening.

If you want more infamy, we've got plenty more episodes at BitterSweetInfamy.com. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to support the podcast, shoot us a few bucks via our coffee account. At KO-FIN-FI.com-forward-slash-bitter-sweet-in-three. But no pressure. Bitter-sweet-in-famy is free, baby. You can always support us by liking, rating, subscribing. The sources that I used for this mint-famisin clue include Hart's Cell, a history of the Pet Rock, for mental flaws by Jake Rossen, August 22, 2019.

The rise involved the Pet Rock, a look back at the 1975 holiday craze by a rare historical photos from an article published March 17, 2023. The Pet Rock captured a moment and made its creator a millionaire on ABC News April 1, 2015, and the interstitial music was I'm in love with my pet rock by Albo hosted on YouTube by Best Awesome Night Music. The sources that I used for this episode were an article written by Christopher Othin on his website, Bright Review, Heist's History's Wars. The article about Andres Donder was entitled, Wider than White. Robin Banks in a Parthide era, South Africa, with police captain Andres Donder and his gang, 1977 to 1984.

I looked at an article from Rob Marsh's website, famous South African crimes. This page was entitled, The Stondard Gang, 1983 to 1984. Everton article published by CNN by Stephanie Snipes entitled, Police Officer Turned Bank Robert. New film tells story of South African Andre Stander. This was published August 11th 2004. I read an article from essaykissery.org entitled The June 16th Soweto Newt Uprising. I listened to a podcast from Times Live, a South African publication from their True Crime South Africa

series podcast entitled The Legend of Andre Stander. Lies, Greed, and Dark Secrets by Nicole Inglebricht hosted February 19, 2021. And lastly, I watched the 2003 Bronwyn Hughes film, Stonder, starring Thomas Jane. Shout out to our monthly subscriber, Jonathan Mountain. Thanks for all you do, Jonathan. And if you're interested in also getting your own shout out, consider donating to our copy account, KO-FIN-F-I.

.com-forward-slash-bittersweet-in-me. If you become a monthly subscriber like Jonathan Mountain you'll have access to the bittersweet film club where you can hear all of our musings about wonderful or horrible movies bittersweet infinity is a proud member of the 604 podcast network the song you're listening to now is T-Streamed by Brian Stewart.