Bittersweet Infamy - #99 - Country Lessons

Episode Date: May 12, 2024

Josie tells Taylor about the controversial 2016 CMA Awards performance by Beyoncé and The Chicks, and how it inspired Beyoncé's 2024 album, Cowboy Carter. Plus: it's full speed ahead on the Road to the Melties as Taylor and Josie prepare their ballots for episode 100 of Bittersweet Infamy!

Welcome to Bitter Sweet and Food. I'm Taylor Basso. And I'm Josie Mitchell. On this podcast, we share the stories that live on in Infamy. The strange and the familiar. The tragic and the comic. The bitter. And the sweet.

Episode 99. Oh my god! Welcome to the 99 bittersweet infamy synth store. I'm really glad we had you write that theme tune. Paying dividends and dividends. 99, a full Gretzky as we say up here in Canada. Is that a fact? It's a fact, it's as fact as it right now. It's, we're getting, we're inching ever closer

to episode 100. In fact, you might say're inching ever closer to episode 100. In fact, you might say this is the last episode before episode 100. It's the last inch. The last, the final inch. Inching of the inch. We're tucking back the balls. So.

I know, I know. I almost made it to, I almost made it to a minute this time before. It took me, it took me a second to understand. But then I visualized it. The visualizer turned on and I got it. I'm sorry. No, I feel illuminated.

I feel closer to a hundred. I really do. Truly. Well, I have a, this is, oh God. The problem is I was actually gonna seg into our Road to the Melties thing with a really dirty joke, but it's a dirty joke. Okay, so how about this?

It's a dirty joke I told to like a very elderly woman in a hospital to lift her spirits. So, if you have the constitution of a 98 year old on an IV, you can handle this. Can I be a 99 year old on an IV, considering it's. Can I be a 99 year old on an IV considering it's- I guess so. I suppose so, I suppose so. Okay.

It's a dirty joke about nuns. So if you don't like that, then maybe this isn't the podcast for you. However. Do you wanna hear it? Of course. Yeah, I'm sure imagine if you said, no, we just have to move on.

Wasted time, wasted breath. So these two nuns are riding their bicycles down a little used back alley. And the one nun says to the other one, oh, you know, I've never come this way before. And the other nun says it's the cobblestones. And if you feel those cobblestones right now it's because we are on the road to the Maltese. Now, yeah, the seg.

It's the seg that got me, to be honest. It's the seg. You know, it's both parts of the joke are important for the overall execution. But what I'm really getting at is we're on the road to the Maltese. And Josie, what are the Maltese? Road to the Maltese.

The Maltese are a award show where we award ourselves awards. No, no, that's not true. They award us awards. We need you. We need you, the listeners, to vote on the awards. The listeners vote, but we do award ourselves. Well, Viola Davis wasn't picking up her fucking phone. Okay.

Fair, fair, fair, fair. picking up her fucking phone. Okay. So it's actually a fan voted situation. And if you want to vote on the melodies, which we would really love for you to do, we would love more votes to be candid. But if put it to this way, if there are a low number of votes right now, which spoiler alert there are, that means that if you vote,

then your vote weighs heavy in the bucket, as it were. That's a fact, yeah. That is a fact, Jack. And Taylor, we don't quite really have a limit on how many times you can vote. Oh no, oh no, we don't. Technically no. I mean, honor system. Take a candy.

Leave enough for the other kids. But like, we don't have a ring cam set up. That's true Yeah, so if if you have strong Divergent opinions You want to hammer home? Let all the multitudes of you sing. Yes absolutely And whatever your opinions are whatever amount of episodes of the show you listen to we want to hear from you You can go to tinyurl.com

slash infamy 100. That's tinyurl.com forward slash infamy 100 to vote. And if you haven't already voted, well you need to get your shit in because voting only runs until May 19th. May 19th! That's a Sunday at 11 a.m. in the morning Pacific time. May 19th is a memorable day Sunday at 11 a.m. in the morning Pacific time. May 19th is a memorable day to date to remember because that is the last time you can get in your votes for the Meltes and we need those votes. We want those votes and we respect those votes.

We love democracy here. May 19th, 11 a.m. Pacific time. So if you haven't voted yet, or even if you have, you're in luck because Josie and I are going to be completing our ballots right in here, right now. Live. Live. On the air.

Live on the air. Live on this recording. If you can't call up the network, they're gonna say they're in, we can't talk to them right now, they're on air. They're in the studio casting their ballots. The red light is on. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go through

this list, category by by category and explain the ballot and walk you through because you have of course already pulled up tinyurl.com slash infamy100 and you're voting right along with us. Tiny URL. What a musician you are today and in general in life. Absolutely no trading. Wow. Wow. you are today and in general in life. Absolutely no training. Wow. Wow.

Let's vote in the mail. Oh God. So, best special segment is our first category. And so you'll notice that phrase special segment. This is for like, like this, what we're doing right now is kind of a special segment. We're just, but I can't vote for this. But you can't vote for this. No, and doing right now is kind of a special segment. We're just... But I can't vote for this.

But you can't vote for this, no. And nor should you. Like honestly, it would be a waste to vote. But there's a few things in here. First of all, we've got the April Fools Factor Fiction Mimfimus. You'll remember this if you listen to our past couple of episodes because we just did a couple of these. You can also vote for the first ever Miltese that we did all the way back in episode 50. You can vote for on Christmas, Christmas day-ish. Josie and Mitchell brought a guessing game about Hallmark Christmas movies. It was pretty decent, pretty decent.

Yeah. We've got the choose your own adventure story that Josie and Mitchell prepared back in episode 83. That was our season three season 83. That was our season three season finale. That was our pre-wedding special. Yes and I believe it was kind of haunted house. Haunted house theme. Taylor in a... Yes. Yeah a trampoline was involved. Yeah a trampoline was involved as in the best times that we share. We also have bittersweet ambush. Now this is the the game show segment

that I ambushed Josie with that was sort of a trap within a trap within a trap that was back in episode 90, our game show cheating scandal. I'm not certain if I'm out of the trap. I look over my shoulder every day. I'm caught in a trap. Is this an ambush?

No, it could still. Is this another sweet ambush? There are ambushes in the distance. There are ambushes yet to come. And then last of all, Josie brought in for episode 94, a little round of fuck, marry, and kill, if that's your poison. Josie, which of these six?

Do any of these jump out to you? I feel like I'm choosing between two. Yeah, what are they? The Hallmark movie Guessing Game. I really liked that one. There was something very like, homey Christmas about that. And then of course, I'm a bittersweet ambush.

I'm scared not to have some fun. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Yeah. It's hard. We've got a lot of strong contenders, April Fool's Factor, Fiction, Mimphimus, a stalwart, a standby. Yeah, that's true.

Classic. I was very touched by the Choose Your Own Adventure that you did, because it was right before your wedding. You had like, really important things that you were planning. It was really cool of you to do that. And then, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I put a lot of work into bittersweet ambush

and I would like to see it do well. Yes, okay, fair, fair, yeah. All right, I think I know who I'm voting for. Okay, me too. All right, so onwards. Our next category is best multi-episode series. So these are series that lasted more than one episode. So a segment is just, a segment can be over.

You blink. You- Within an episode. And a segment is over as Hanson is fond of saying, but a multi-episode series tends to linger a little bit longer. For example, we've got our finalists here, our bittersweet 604.

That was the live in-person Vancouver material that we did back from episodes 76 through 79. We've got bittersweet romance, which we did more recently. I wanna say episodes 91 through 94. That was our romance-themed block of programming for February. Every Sunday in February, we showed up in your ears. And then there is Trick or Treat Infamy.

Now this one's an interesting one. There have been five Trick or Treat Infamy episodes split across 2023 and 2024. That's right. Two years worth of Trick or Treat Infamy we're auditing here. There is the Bittersweet Film Club for all of you coffee exclusive fans.

Now mathematically, I don't know if Bitter Sweet Film Club has legs in this, but maybe it does. Maybe we can't say. And then there's of course the Bitter Sweet Mixtape, which we release every Christmas at a coffee. And you can go and listen to that one for free. Josie, which of these is jumping out to you? It's down to two again for me.

And I think Bitter Sweet 6044 near and dear to my heart. Yeah, BC based stories. Yeah, large and in charge. Truly large and truly in charge. In and amongst. Maybe I'm leaning towards that one because it was like, oh, I got to hang out with you in person. Yeah.

We did some cool stuff on that one. We did some like, oh, here's some us having a, in the fairy gift shop and whatnot. And that was, it had a little, its own little intro and whatnot. I have to admit something though. What's that? I lost that friendship bracelet. That's okay.

It fell off. That's what they're supposed to do. That's okay. Gosh. And then a fairy gets its friend. A fairy gets its horn. Er. Yeah.

And then, okay. But then what's your other one then? You said you were way in between two. A fairy gets its horn. Errr. Sweet. Yeah. And then, okay. But then what's your other one then? You said you were way in between two. The bittersweet mixtape, I think is one of the finest bittersweet infamy. Products, multiverse. Offshoots, multiverses out there.

You really should give those bittersweet mixtapes a listen if you haven't. I would say mm-hmm Yeah, what are you leaning towards? I'm not gonna try to be so obvious in all my picks, but I am leaning toward bittersweet 604 Oh, I think that just in terms of the totality of it. I really liked how the individual episodes came out They've all got really different feels from one another a lot of like care was taken I really enjoyed our time spent at the 604 podcast studios.

I enjoyed our time spent at, or sorry, 604 records, I should say. I really enjoyed our time spent in recording our little thing in the van and in the woods and Shanta's episode was great. I'm really happy with how it all came together. So I would say 604 for this one. Although like, you know,

we've done a lot to boost our own selves, but I'm proud of all of these. Yeah, it's hard to pick your favorite child. In fact, I think there's a lot of books that say don't do that. None that I've read. It's the way that I get around that is I've only taught one of my kids to read.

So. See, you're always thinking, dog. You're always thinking. That's what is necessary to be a good parent. That and what's it called? Stake your loyalties, pick faves early and reinforce them. Yeah, exclusionary practices and pick your favorite. And speaking of picking your favorites,

we've got the bittersweet infamy Hall of Fame. Now this is something new that we're trying. We want to establish a Hall of Fame. It's gonna be a digital hall of fame at first until we can get together a down payment for a brick and mortar location. But, I don't know how many, by the way, I don't know how many of these

that we're gonna decide to induct. I think we're gonna see if anyone gets a majority, like a certain amount of the votes, let's say. And we don't know what that is yet, but we'll figure it out, we'll figure it out. Right, yeah, yeah. We've got a lot of a bittersweet, infamy favorites here.

Did anyone jump out at you here? I feel like Brian Steele, T Street composer stands out to me. Yeah. He's a real life person. He is a real life person, which will make it all the more awkward if he were to win, cause then we'd have to like follow up with him, right?

Oh, right, yeah. But you know, Raisins, they're up there too for me. I think raisins have really turned it around. Yeah. You know, we came in real hard, like a bunch of old raisins, but now we've softened like a bunch of new raisins. Yes, in the sun, yeah.

Yeah. Those are good picks, I gotta say. For me, I don't know if I'm picking her but I think that Barbara Streisand will win I think that like she's just too entrenched in the lore. She's just too she's appeared in too many episodes Yeah, she's she was in our first episode. She was in the infamous of our 16th or of our 17th some sort of episode she's in the DNA baked 17th, some sort of episode. She's in the DNA. She's baked in there. She's cloned in. Yeah. And I gotta say, I really gotta give a little bit of credit

to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle because he tends to pop up in stories where you wouldn't expect him to pop up. Just based on knowing, not knowing anything about him other than he's Sherlock's dad. He tends to show up in just the strangest places. You're talking about a cult that's being run out of, run out of Nanaimo and boom, start thing Conan Doyle in there

to stick his word in and get his two cents in there. So. Yeah. It's hard. That's a hard one. This is a hard one. Cause really this category says a lot about who we are. It does.

And I also think that it's down to the voters cause we've got some very sincere picks in here. You know, Sinead O'Connor, the Silent Twins, some kind of more sincere picks. But then also we've got like Shelly Duvall's It's a Bird's Life for the 3DO, or Tim Cain. But you know, people- He won't win. He won't win. So it's hard to pick out faves among your children, isn't it?

Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it is hard. In fact, it's the opposite. You should do it. Yeah. You should do it. Now, this is another one where we're gonna have you select your top three, but there's only gonna be one winner this time, and that is the best minfamous.

Best minfamous. This is hard. Dang. This is a stacked category. Which one is the minfiest minf? So let's stick in a good word for some of our favorites here. I think one that I would like to rise above the fray here and submit is that I really like the minfamous that you did in episode 62 about the Butterheads, the Minnesota State Fair. That was our first episode on the B604 podcast network. I thought it was like a good like

pracy of what a minfamous is and can be and kind of what the Way that it sets up the rest of the show. I really enjoyed that one. I really liked loud things Sunchip bag, Vuvuzela and Krakatoa Really? The triptych of it the fact that a Sunchip bag could be that goddamn loud Very loud Sunchip bag very loud Sunchip bag. Yeah, that loud. Very loud Sunchip bag, very loud Sunchip bag. That got me, that really got me in the best way. Spare a thought for La Mona from episode 64, that was the large naked woman statue

that the artist ended up living inside. I thought that one was pretty good. And TJ, yeah, yeah. I like Cassandra the Exotico, I liked Snuffy's Parents Get a Divorce, the Sesame Street episode where Snuffy's parents get a divorce. That one was good.

Yeah, I love the Kissing Cousins of the Sailor Moon dub. Okay, okay, so there's- Oh my girl, yes. Look at all of these options and a bounty for you to vote on. The murky relationship between Jack and Meg White with the white stripes. That one was good. I forgot about that one. That one was good, I forgot about that one.

That one was good. I think my favorite part of that is that you never answer the question and why? Why should you? You shouldn't. I think the question answers itself. Who am I to get in between family? That's not my style.

Yeah, oh, I mean the poo poo bus. The poo poo bus was solid. Hey, ooh, unfortunately. Okay, I've got... Wing. Wing. Wing, the unlikely pop star. Yeah.

Oh, love my wing, girl. The Ghanaian bootleg movie posters. There's so many, I know, right? You gotta narrow them down. And then our last category, and some would say our bittersweetest category. In fact, probably most people would say that because it's the only one with bittersweetest in the name.

It's our bittersweetest episode. This is something like our best picture award. So this is gonna be a great one for us to like accidentally give to the wrong episode, you know. These sorts of things. We wanna cause an escandalo. La La Land, what? No? La La Who?

That movie I put that on to sleep in a plane and boy did it knock me out. I've never seen it I'd like to keep it that way. We've got our final category the bittersweetest episode So a way that is helpful perhaps to do this is to pull up a website like Spotify Apple podcasts Wherever you listen to your podcasts and kind of That's a really good note. A scroll down because then you can see where the summaries of each of the episodes, some of them can be a little bit I don't know you might not know to look at it But the night the hills lost time is about a UFO a series of UFO abductions good episode by the way number 72

Great title. That was your title. That was good. Josie, this is another one where you get to pick three episodes, your top three, but only one will end up getting the first pass of the post, as it were. Which of these is really, actually let me start. Let me start. Yeah, you start, you start.

Let me start, let me start. I got a lot of really good feedback from all kinds of listeners on episode number 51, Pregnant Don't Want To Be, Call Jane. That one made my brother cry. Good, he deserves it. That was cool. And uh.

Sorry, Punchy. That was a, I think a real standout Josie episode. And if we're talking standout Josie episodes, I also do wanna ping it back to number 63, Rays in Hell. I thought. Oh, oh yeah. I thought that was a very strong episode. If I had to ping it back to number 63, Rays in Hell. I thought that was a very strong episode. If I had to round it out, if I were making a Josie-centric top three, which really can't go wrong with any kind of Josie episode, I would say number 77, the right side of the tracks was really strong. That was the one about the militant mothers of Raymer who stood

on the train tracks in East Van until the train stopped running to during their kids' school hours and threatening their physical safety. And I got to record the actual tracks with Lucia. Fun, lots of fun, lots of fun. Speaking of Lucia, I can't say enough about all of our excellent guests, Chandelier, Amanda Ortiz, Lucia, Gerard, I think,

Gerard Cletta, everyone's been really, really excellent. I highly recommend any guest episode that we recorded to be celebrated. Not to pick just one, but I will say, I'm particularly fond of number 68, Cult of the Cleteris, because it has Lucia's killer main story, all of our guests do really killer main stories, but I specifically really, really liked Lucia's main story.

And then you've got the April Fools' minfamous featuring Dave Matthews' poo poo bus and Josie's now legendary Fran Drescher story. So that was a pretty strong guest episode, but like Shanda's was excellent, Gerard's was excellent. I love chatting to you, getting to know Amanda. Their story was really excellent. So we've got options, baby, options.

Yeah, Gerard's was, it is finished about the true crime murder in Australia. Yes, the Tamamshud case, you might know it as, very famous, infamous Australian murder case. Amanda Ortiz took us down the wormhole from 9-11 to 50 Shades of Grey. And then that was good. Yeah. Then that was uh what was that one called again? Self-insert. The provocatively titled number 86 self-insert. Yeah. The Empress of Canada. Yeah. Was chandelier.

Yeah the established chandelier. Yes. About Ted North. Yeah. A civil rights figure from Vancouver. Those were our guest episodes that are available. I'm looking at these and yeah, our guest ones are frick nugget rad, but I'm in love, I've always been in love with number 69, Made in America. The American Apparel episode, okay, sure, thank you. I liked that one, that was a lot of fun. That was very cool. I don't know, that's a story that feels very bittersweet and for me,

and it kinda hit home. I think during the recording I was wearing American Apparel. What a shame. And then kinda shortly after that, number 71, Elizabeth Shrugged. Ah! That one just got me. I loved that character. Rolled you like a three wheel car.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. It really took me places. She's a really interesting, I agree, she's a really really interesting, I love my flawed protagonists. Yeah. And the more like complicated their flaws are, the more I tend to enjoy getting to know them. Oh and Gotta Get Down on Friday, number 84, about Rebecca Black. That's quite a beautiful story. And how you kept a concert secret from me for months on end. That, you know, that I maintain is not a trespass of mine because I don't... What have I told you about my day today?

What do you know that I had a gooseberry this morning? No, because I didn't... Because who cares? Another one that I really love is the last one on this list. Number 96, all 33 of us are safe in the shelter. Really? That like, I loved the way that you told the story of like 33 individuals as like a group,

but as individuals and- Yeah, lots of good ones in here. Lots of good ones in here. So many good ones. I also liked your Emperor's New Groove one, number 70, Finding the Groove, very good. Yeah, God, how am I gonna pick only three? I will say, I like the odds for number 58, the White House Party Crashers, because the Real Housewives of DC just got back onto Peacock, and I think that it might be at top of mind for some folks.

Ah. Wait, there's two episodes missing here. 61 and 62 are missing. Sinead and... Oh my God, Sinead. Sinead and Godzilla. Sinead and Godzilla are missing. Oh no.

So they ain't gonna win, cause they're missing. But Sinead is so good. Well tough shit, she don't win. No! I'm gonna like double voter, triple voter. You guys you really need to get in there and vote before May 19th. Vote for Sinead. Yeah. Vote for Sinead. Number 62, fight the real enemy. We forgot to include it on the ballot. Now you need to go back and re-include it on the ballot. And then also number 61, lost in translation about poor Godzilla.

He's left out in the cold here too. Just to clarify, number 61 and number 62 are now on the ballot. So please go and vote. All right, I'm ready to hit send. Are you ready to hit send? It's submit actually. What the fuck?

Yes, submit. Are you ready to submit?? Are you ready to hit send? It's submit actually. What the fuck? Yes, submit. Are you ready to submit? I'm ready to submit. Three, two, one, submit. Your response has been recorded. I didn't get that, hold on. I'm just gonna submit it like five different times. I got it!

Okay, sweet. Woo! Yeah, okay, we're in. So if you haven't already, vote along. You go to tinyurl.com forward slash infamy100. That's tinyurl.com slash infamy100. We're gonna be putting a whole ton of work into the melties. We're gonna be having a little melties after party

over at coffee.com. We're really putting our whole butts and genitals into this process. And tucking the balls. Tucking them back, tucking them, Just so you get that succulent extra inch and We really really hope if you've liked the past 100 episodes as much as we've enjoyed making them And it's really crazy to think that's been a hundred episodes Please please please vote in the melties, and we really hope you like what we've got for you coming up

Also, if you're like whoa that looks long I can't remember all of them go in. Just vote for what you remember or care about. Less party baby. And if you get bored scroll down to the bottom and just hit send. It's a 99 episodes on the way here. We've been through- It's been one week since you looked at me. Precisely. Sorry. Thank you. No, it's good.

It's good that you did that. I'm gonna say it's been a long road. It's been full of ice storms and capital riots and heat waves. Feel good cobblestone. Those cobblestones always hitting that G spot, but you have a very sacred duty to deliver our last,

our 99th and final conventional story that we do to tuck us in to episode 100, which is gonna be, I mean, it's not gonna be a regular episode, folks. We're not gonna tell you what it's gonna be, but it ain't gonna be this, so. True. So cling to your normalcy while Josie provides it to you in the form of Veth. Veth, our 99th story.

Just make it part of the dance. That's what I say. As we continue ever closer to our destination of episode 100, we still have a little ways to go. And we're going to take a little pit stop here at episode 99. And we're going to keep talking award shows. Sure. Last episode we got a chance to talk about the Oscars Award Show. I'm gonna take you to another award show but for this one Taylor I need you to get your cowboy boots out. I need you to get your your 10 gallon hat, some

spurs. What do you got? What do you got? It's hard because we don't do gallons up here. I got my six shooter. I got my six shooter. I got my chape song. I got my... Listen, I play... I play and have played a lot of Red Dead Redemption in my time. I can pick out a gross at 100 paces maybe. Well, it's all on full display in 2016 at the Country Music Awards. Okay, okay. I don't know where this is going. 2016, it's November 2016. And what a time that was in our collective lives. What a fucking fragrant month that was for every conceivable reason. Oh, my God.

We are six days before the U presidential election when folks were, at least folks in my circles were relatively certain that Donald Trump could in no way win that presidential election. Ousting, beating Hillary Clinton. Yeah. God. It's one of the most partisan elections of American history where many a liberal American learned how truly white supremacist and misogynistic American culture could be. Oh, and an unfolding lesson. Yes, exactly. So we're in this, what did you call it, a fragrant month. Yes. Yes. Yes. We didn't have our own readers. And we are at the Country Music Awards as they're getting underway.

We're at the Bridgestone Arena in Nashville, Tennessee, the cradle of American country music, Nashville. And not only is this all happening, the air is ripe with partisan election, but it is also the 50th anniversary of the Country Music Awards. So it is a big to do. They are pulling out all the stops. Did they get Reba? They got Reba, tell me they got Reba.

Oh, they got Reba, dog. Martina McBride? They got Reba, yes. Carrie Underwood? Look how gay I am. Yes. Morgan Wallen. This year, the Willie Nelson Lifetime Achievement Award was being presented to Dolly Parton. Two of the greats. So just like, huge greats. And then in the tribute to Dolly, we get to see our girl Reba McIntyre up there on the stage. There's Kacey Musgrave in this tribute.

Even Pentatonix pay homage to Dolly's long and almost sincere. Even the Pentatonix. It's crazy. It's crazy. But those weren't the only country music stars present. Brad Paisley, Alan Jackson, Luke Bryan, Tim McGraw, George Strait, Dwight Yoakam, Brooks and Dunn, Charlie Pryde, just to name a few, who were not only in attendance, they all performed on the stage that night.

This is a star-studded arrangement, isn't it? It is a huge fucking deal. And because it's- Well, nobody fucks it up. Because it's the 50th anniversary award show, they're not just looking at like, oh, let's look back at 2016, they're not just looking at like, oh, let's look back at 2016,

or let's look back at the 2015, 2016 season. Much like the Miltese look back on 100 episodes of Bittersweet Infamy. Yes. This CMA, which is Country Music Awards, this 50th anniversary of the CMAs is looking at the entire history of modern country and really trying to cover all the...

I mean, Dolly Parton is winning her lifetime Willie Nelson Achievement Award. It's the big time. It's towards the end of the night, though. I think we're probably about two-thirds through the performances. When Out steps onto the stage, one of the CMA's most controversial acts to date.

The CMA producers had kept it hush hush all up until these artists walked out on stage in order to create this big surprise. And it's kind of a question of like, were they creating the stir and trying to drum it up? Did they get fucking Roman Polanski? Who is this? Or were they trying to keep it quiet so that they get a Roman Polanski? Who is this? Were they trying to keep it quiet so that there wouldn't be a whole bunch of pushback?

Question mark remains. But Alex steps onto that country star-studded stage was none other than Queen B. Beyoncé herself. Right. Accompanied by the chicks whom at the time. Yes, we're still called the Dixie chicks. Yes. Yes. Yes. So not Roman Polanski. Not Roman Polanski, but if you have not heard the chicks as they are referred to now formally the Dixie chicks in 2020 June of 2020, they changed their name, dropping Dixie. They said they had quote unquote, picked that stupid name as teenagers, end quote, and they've

been wanting to change it. At the time they'd been wanting to change it for years. Right, because of its association with the Confederacy, which you know. Exactly. It feels like there is a lot, there was a bill of goods that was sold about the antebellum South via movies like Gone With the Wind and biased stories from prejudiced older relatives and the general whitewashing of American history, et cetera,

that doesn't really hold up under scrutiny. All that, yeah. And I can imagine them not realizing that it was as charged a term as it actually is. And they were inspired by the George Floyd protests of the summer of 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement. Much in the same way that Lady Antebellum changed their name to Lady A and then a black lady was like, that's already my stage name and then they were like, oh sorry about that. Yeah, which is interesting because the chicks, they did have to check in with the New Zealand duo who had previously owned the name

The Chucks? Um, just... The Chucks! The Chucks! That's true, that's it, yeah. And once they cleared it with the Chucks... Okay, see this is good because when we did that New Zealand episode I felt bad because I was just doing an Aussie accent that whole time. That was some New Zealand specific accent humor.

You are welcome. You are welcome, New Zealand. For the gift that is me. They said of that summer of 2020, the chicks, it definitely lit a fire on us to be on the right side of history. Sure, of course. And part of their name change too,

they released a single protest song called March March. And it had a music video. I don't know if you remember seeing that. But I was there. So just a note, I will, it's kind of interchangeable sometimes because in quotes and that kind of thing, they're still referred to as the Dixie Chicks. But I think we got you. Yeah, any contemporary commentary, it's the Chicks. So Beyonce and the Chicks are on stage and they're performing an original song from Beyonce's recently released Lemonade album. Right, a very significant album in terms of its messaging especially around like Black Empowerment. The song that they sing is called Daddy Lessons.

Yep. You know it? Okay good. I don't know if I could hum it for you, but I know the title. Yeah, I mean, Beyoncé's albums, her last, her last few have been long. They've been like more than albums. They're like experiences. I feel like as she's gotten, as she's like matured as an artist, it feels like each of her albums has a lot of very specific intent put into it. And a lot of research. We're gonna get into that. Okay. Don't you worry. Robert Deaton, who at the time in 2016 was the executive producer of the CMA Awards, he says, and I quote, I was in LA when lemonade dropped. When someone like Beyonce puts out an album, you listen to all of it.

Daddy Lessons came on and I was like, man, this is so Texas country. This would be great for the CMAs. So he talks about how in that same trip when he's out in LA, he sees a lot of people talking like on social media and articles and that kind of thing that like Beyonce has released a country song. Beyonce has released like a CMA performance essentially with this song. And so he's kind of thinking like, well, that was my first reaction. And so he's kind of thinking like, well, that was my first reaction. And now it's kind of out in the ether. I'm gonna reach out to Beyonce's publicist and manager

and see if I can't get something going. So he says, I sent a note to Beyonce's team that same day going, I don't know what your plans are, but the CMA awards are November. It would be a great performance for everybody. End quote. He puts out a few of these feelers a few months go by and he gets response. And they say, yeah, maybe. Okay. We'd love to. But we'd like to bring the chicks with us.

Chucks. So that might seem like, okay, great. Yeah, makes sense. The Dixie Chicks at the time, the Dixie Chicks, the chicks, they're wonderful country, western musicians, absolute virtuosos of the genre and the tradition. Oh, hell yeah, it is. A karaoke jam for the ages. It also helped that the main singer of the chicks, Natalie Maines, she became obsessed with Lemonade when it came out. She said that she watched the visual album, which is another amazing thing that Beyonce

is able to do is create these really intricate and wildly rich videos that accompany her songs. Natalie Maines is watching and rewatching Lemonade, a visual album, and she and the chicks get permission to cover Daddy Lessons. They cover a lot of songs actually in their performances and because Natalie Maines fell deeply in love with Daddy Lessons, they covered it a lot on tour. When Beyonce's folks approach the chicks to perform alongside her at the 2016 CMAs they jump at the chance. That might seem like well they're country and western whatever like they'll be maybe the part of the welcoming wagon for Beyonce when she arrives in Nashville.

But you have to remember in 2003 the chicks got in a lot of trouble. They surely did. They very surely did for exercising freedom of speech I would point out which is a little ironic. It's true, it's true. March 10th, 2003, nine days before the invasion of Iraq, the American invasion of Iraq. Yeah, what a time. What a fucking time that was. The Spider-Hole era, Jesus. I know, I know, I'm taking you back to like 2016 and then the start of the Iraq war. No, dude, this is the Americana tour. And we're better than the CMAs, right?

True enough. So the chicks are in London. They're performing at Shepard's Bush Empire Theater. They're on tour for their sixth album, which is entitled Home. And they're about to introduce one of the songs from the album called Traveling Soldier. And Natalie Maines, the main singer,

tells the audience kind of in, you know, as they're transitioning and tuning guitars, she says, and I quote, just so you know, we're on the good side with y'all. We don't want this war, this violence. We're ashamed that the president of the United States is from Texas. That's a bold ass statement. And I mean, props, props for the such a bold ass statement. Yeah, right after she says that, her bandmate, Emily Strayer adds, but you know we're behind the troops 100%. Okay.

I mean, they are about to perform the song, Traveling Soldier, you know, like, it's not totally out of left field trying to cover their butts, but. As a pacifist myself, I don't harbor animosity toward the individual soldier per se as much as I harbor animosity towards the grinding years of war that keep certain people very wealthy and keep us at each other's throats and things like that. No totally, totally.

And I think there is something about Natalie Main's pulling in Texas too. There's something about that country persona and that like country music, conservative, traditional culture that accompanies Texas. Texas is a state with an idea of itself, and I don't mean that negatively. I just mean that as a statement of fact. Texas self-nock ologizes Texans by large the Texans I've met are quite proud that they're Texans. Yeah to include the chicks to include George W. Bush to include Random family members of yours that I've met, you know what I mean? Like I've tends to be the case totally and so I can imagine like now you're speaking for Texas. So that's tough

Right. Yeah. Yeah, if you wanna if If you wanna go off on some liberal limb over there, then fine, but you don't get off the Texas. Don't mess with Texas as they say, Alamo or go home. Alamo or go home. You know, Don't Mess With Texas was an anti-litter campaign. No, that can't be right, really? Yeah, yeah, it started as that. How's the litter down there? How's that going? It's pretty bad.

Oh damn, that's a shame. At least in Houston, it's a shame. It's not great. You have a big problem with litter here. So, the chicks. They're saying this in London and it gets reported back to the US. And the backlash is monumental from the country

music community. Oh yeah. They are essentially blacklisted from Nashville. Dude. Country radio stations across the nation stop, just stop, boycott of their songs. Which that has to be their primary market, right? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Radio stations also like provide trash can bins outside. Oh, we're bulldozing Sinead's albums. Come and throw away your Dixie chicks. Why is this is such a common... listen, oh god, it's it's dusty American, right? I don't mean disrespect, but it's a dusty tactic, this bin with the the CDs. So, country radio stations, they are boycotting, setting up trash cans. Um, one of the chicks' own tour bus operators quits as protest. The thing about freedom of speech is that other people

are free to react however they want to what you say. Yeah. If this guy is pissed off by what they said and he wants to quit, that's his right, right? No, that's true, that's true. Lipton Tea pulled their promotional deal with the chicks. You pussies Lipton Tea, how dare you? Natalie Maines said of the whole ordeal

that she found it quote unfathomable, but that we quote are learning more and more that it's not that unfathomable to a large percentage of the population. Natalie Maines, the whole band felt this way. It wasn't a secret that they were more liberal. They had a song called Earl has to die. Right. It just takes that, what was it? It wasn't a secret that they were more liberal. They had a song called Earl Has to Die. Like-

Right. It just takes that, what was it I said about like, God forbid a woman speak about politics? You know what I mean? Yeah, true enough. How many of those have we fucking been through now, including like last episode, including Sinead O'Connor, including people who didn't even say or do things that were like, particularly all that controversial.

And it just kind of, I think it was a little bit of a perfect storm, right? It was post-911, like, rah rah America, don't say anything bad. And country music, which is taking that sentiment, like, to the nth degree, right, at this time. And so the chicks are kind of left flailing they still remain a band yeah they are nothing really changes interiorly for them they still release albums and they were right to some degree vindicated by history but we all know that doesn't come for at least fucking 20 until the podcast start right right? So yeah, the fact that the chicks are being invited to the CMA stage, that alone is monumental.

And now they are accompanying Beyonce, who's known previously as an R&B star, as a pop star, six days before Donald Trump's election. Right. And you know what? Here's the thing about Beyoncé being like an R&B star and whatever. I was always very conscious when I was writing that I'm like, oh, I feel like my work just would be de facto put in queer literature just as a genre categorization because of the person who is making it. And I think to a degree that like, who the fuck says black people can't make country music, right? Or that country music isn't already black. Yeah, exactly. I think that like, things like musical categorizations are helpful in so far as

they help us find music that we like, and they help us, I don't know. They're like, each genre has its own history of performers and tropes and things to draw upon that's really interesting. But at the end of the day, I'm sure if you ask Beyonce, like, Oh, are you an R&B and musician? Are you a country musician? You have pop music. She's saying I'm a musician.

Right. Yeah. With like diverse interests. She'd probably just say, I'm Beyonce. First of all, how are you? How the hell did you get in here? What is this interview? Yeah. Ha ha ha ha.

But I think it's also important to remember that 2016 was the year that Beyonce performed at the Halftime Super Bowl performance. Yeah. And she brought another song that features in Lemonade called Formation. Yeah, I remember this. Yeah.

And this is, of course, we're just easing in to, like, take a knee fucking era, right? Like this is a very big like all the flash points are starting to flash in terms of, you know, the particular moral panics that the American right starts to seize on around this time in my observation. Yeah, yeah. And you're right, the football is is kind of rife with With a few of these things. Yeah, and

Beyonce along with I always forget that Coldplay was there and Bruno Mars, but oh for guys she Look at the stars. Look how they shine for you Kermit Hey Josie Chris Martin couldn't be here, so I took the job. Miss Piggy wants to put a new wing on the house. So Beyonce shows up with a troupe of all-black female dancers, all sporting wonderfully large afros capped with berets that are inspired by the Black Panther's uniforms. Okay, so there isn't, we're not being ambiguous here in the message that we're putting across,

and rightly so. Beyonce has the wonderful like black leather suit that has the bullet bandoliers also kind of inspired by a Black Panther look, and she's singing this song, Formation, Get in Formation, which kind of in this context now has some militaristic aspects going on. And the dances on a football field, which a football field and the bands that perform on a football field, especially in Texas, it's an extremely militaristic practice. So Beyonce does this performance at the Super Bowl, which is like, you know, baby Jesus and apple pie American.

Truly, truly, yes, absolutely. And a lot of white America is confused and enraged because they see this homage. Exactly, they see this homage to what is considered and through American history as being a very militaristic group, the Black Panthers. But history hasn't actually painted the full picture because the Black Panthers are responsible for some really wonderful neighborhood community initiatives throughout the U.S. like free lunches for kids. That was a huge program that the Black Panthers were in charge of. If you want to paint them as militaristic, sure. So is the broader American cultural apparatus. I don't really see the difference. You know what I mean? Yeah. America hates militarism. Like what are you fucking talking about? I know, right? Of course this is all all very broad strokes, right? Like, but I think the CMA crowd that is sitting in the

Bridgestone Theater in 2016 is seeing Beyonce as this artist who is dissenting against white America by performing at the Super Bowl with this show. Right. Right. Right. And so they're already kind of like, that's not acceptable. And now you're here on this stage, excuse me. And you brought the chicks. You brought those fucking traders back with you. Yeah. There's a lot of tension in the room as they walk out into the stage. Paul Miller, who was the director of the CMAs, he says, quote, I think we all understood the symbolism of Beyonce appearing with the chicks and the connection between them. They all came from Texas. Yeah, true, true.

Obviously, she felt it was important to make the statement that she respected the chicks and acknowledged who they were and what they were about. It was a big deal. Sure. Very funny way to play that. Yeah. I think the initial Robert Deaton, you know, initially comes from the fact that he's like, this is a great country song. Yep.

Let's get it on the CMA stage. And if we get Beyonce on here, like think of all the other people who are going to be tuned in and watch this. Which, you know, from a marketing standpoint, okay, yeah. Do you want to watch the performance of Daddy's List? Sure, sure, yeah, I'd love to. Let's do this. I'm surprised, oh my daddy sent you. Oh, my daddy sent you. Sweet girl.

Where there's a right hand on his rival, he's pouring it on the Bible. My daddy sent you. Oh, my daddy sent you. Shock of shocks, Beyonce's an excellent performer. She's one of the best, really, really one of the best. One of the best to do it. Yeah. I thought the chicks, Chucks, I thought they sounded good.

I thought that the audience was pretty game for it. They did a couple of cuts to the crowd to mix, you know what, there were one or two people who were not feeling it. Yeah. Not Mike McConaughey, he was loving it, he was digging it. But he was going, man, I slept with Willie Nelson, this is great.

No, there was one or two people, and it's here where I excused myself for, in general, being quite bad with faces and also not necessarily, like, I don't know the luminaries who are at the CMAs, so I don't know who that little bald man in the red shirt was who seemed so upset, but he didn't look pleased.

Yeah, I don't know who that is either, but he did not look pleased. No, there's a couple folks in the crowd who are kinda, seemed displeased, but I would say that they, based on the camera shots and based on what we heard to be, the crowd reaction would be in the minimum. It didn't come, I don't know what you're about to tell me,

but it didn't come across as though the crowd was like hostile to the performance as a majority. Right. Like for example, when you think back to like the Sashine Little Feather episode that we just did, that crowd was- Audible booing. I would say they were broadly supportive,

but there was, you could hear people booing. That's very true. And that wasn't here. Yeah. You don't hear that. I mean, what you hear is how Beyonce doubled the horns on this song. The recording had a certain amount and she just went ahead and fucking doubled it. Like it's a big sound that they're making. I like I love it. It's a cool effect. It's um it seems like it would be a great like kind of rollican foot stomping performance

to be in the room for to experience live. Yeah. It was about shooting. So you would think that would go over well. Yeah, the second amendment was brought up. This was insane. Yeah. Stand your ground laws, castle doctrine.

Like we're hitting all the hits here, right? I agree with you. There's like kind of a mixed reaction. Even in like the televised documented, you know, go search up on YouTube version, which we can imagine is probably the most sterile one out there. There's still this like feeling from the crowd that the folks who are enjoying it might be kind of like aware that there's other people watching them enjoying it. Other people who are not. Oh no, we're having fun at the concert. it might be kind of like aware that there's other people watching them enjoying it. Other

people who are not. Oh no, we're having fun at the concert. At the Beyonce concert. My God. My God. Why deny yourself good live performance? And there's even the uncertain truth that country star legend Alan Jackson walked out in the middle of the show. Oh, so this is his, his John Wayne had to be held back by the armed guards kind of moment. I think so. It's a little bit of like, yeah, was it six?

Was it two? Was John Wayne really sick that day? Yes, yes. And do you care? Yeah. So there's a Nashville manager who is, does not give his name when he's quoted in the paper, but he says,

I think it was a flat performance overall. And a lot of the industry people I have talked to were not impressed for a variety of reasons. The overall show of the whole award show was great in my opinion. Right, but the sound mixing was just off for the Beyonce part and it was a weak performance. He says, it seemed out of place and felt forced.

And it just didn't, it fit the night to me, celebrating the 50 years. And the Dixie Chicks seemed like a backup band on it felt forced. And it just didn't fit the night to me celebrating the 50 years and the Dixie chicks seemed like a backup band on it without enough of a real shout out to them. I was sitting behind Alan Jackson and he actually stood up from the front row and walked out in the middle of the performance. So I think that spoke volumes for the traditional real country acts.

End quote. Shut up. Shut up. I'm not, I, ugh. Eugh, eugh, eugh. Eugh. What? See, if you don't want a particular message there or if you don't want a particular type of person there, then their inclusion will always feel forced to you

because it will feel like an intrusion to you. Because you've already unwelcomed them in your brain. Yeah, exactly. So like, that's the thing, and you can fucking talk about this in the context of like, gamer gate, and like forced diversity in video. Well, it's all gonna fucking feel

like forced diversity to you, isn't it? Yeah. For some reasons that are not entirely your fault, E.G., you've been spoon-fed centuries of like, Leave It to Beaver, and fucking minstrel shows and all of these false depictions of what is and isn't pure and squeaky clean and what is and isn't attributable to certain types of people and shit like that.

We've all been brainwashed by society, that's part of it. But like also, just, it's a fucking good, just shut up and dance, it's a good song. Yeah, yeah. It's fucking, good, just shut up and dance, it's a good song. Yeah, yeah. It's fucking, you don't, you need to go? Alan, come back. Yeah. Wait, Alan, wait.

He left his phone, yeah. The reactions online were even stronger as they tend to be. Oh my God. It's big industry country music fans too, I think. These are white people with Twitter accounts. Yes. One such wrote figures they would pair up, speaking about the chicks and Beyonce.

One who has no respect for the American military and another who has no respect for the American law enforcement. Ashamed they would be allowed to perform at the CMAs at all. Another. Yeah. All caps. She does not belong. Oh. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point she does not belong.

Oh. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. When have this, this is pretty bad. When have they ever invited any country singer to their BET awards? Never. Bullshit.

I bet Alan, George and Vince think CMT has gone nuts. End of dumbass tweet. It's like there's a lot of grossness roped in that. That's like a nakedly racist sentiment. No, exactly. That's very troubling. Yeah, not to mention there's like a long history of like crossover and collaboration between, I don't know, Black musical artists and white

artists who are practicing in what are not seen as the quote unquote the typical Black music genres. Kite And there's also been a lot of instances where white artists have appropriated Black music and profited off it. Ben Oh, that's the history of music. Kite Yeah, this is true So it wasn't just CMA White racist fans on Twitter who were sharing their negative reviews that created this controversial reaction Is he really running for election again? I can't do this

No, it's not that. I'm serious. He's done here. He's done. Okay, good. Okay, good. Good, good. But that gives, but like, that gives, I'm using Trump as like a stand-in for like the Fox Newsification of it all. It's very tiresome, dude. It's really frustrating that y'all have like a hardcore propaganda channel that people just watch all day.

That's fucked. That scares me. But it wasn't just CMA fans sharing their negative reviews that created a controversial reaction. According to the Los Angeles Times reporting, shortly after the performance, a number of media outlets, including TMZ, so you know that it's like Legge and very real. The meticulous zone.

So according to the meticulous zone, they accused the CMAs of scrubbing their social media accounts of Beyonce's performance clips and the links following the online backlash. Now in the statement, the CMA awards, which they supplied generously to TMZ and the Los Angeles Times, they denied doing so and they said, CMA has not erased any mentions of Beyonce's performance on the CMA Awards.

Okay. In advance of the broadcast, CMA removed a five-second promotional clip from ABC.com and CMA's Facebook page. The promo was unapproved and CMA removed it prior to the broadcast. Beyonce's performance with Dixie Chicks was a highlight of the evening and we are continuing to share the amazing full length performance, period.

Sure, okay. Does that hold water to you? Yes and no. It's kind of like, this is the 50th anniversary and if this is the biggest, hugest deal and if there's a controversy around her, you are extremely careful about what you put out and what you take down. Yeah, but you never know. It's a big, it's a big, fine, uh, fine organization. It's not like you and

me where we're just running the fucking company Twitter for the arts orgs, right? It's not like that. They got, They got that shit on timers and ponies and levers and all sorts of shit. It's like there's a boot that kicks a pail of water and it's a whole process. If it holds water, it's not very much water to me. Okay. I'll say that. Of course, the chicks are feeling this. Natalie Maines, who we know is an outspoken gal. Oh yeah, I know she's a, she'll nuke her career just changing over the amp, dude. She doesn't give a fuck.

Yeah. Which, you know, I love- I admire that. More power to you, dog. I admire that quality in a person too. I'm someone too who would probably be best advised to shut up sometimes and then I'm like, you know what? I shouldn't have said it, but I still believe it.

So where does that leave me? So she does have a few choice words uh one of her tweets at that time though is if we all turn this up really loud together we can drown out the hate which sure that's that's nice yeah okay but it is implying that she's feeling the hate. This is not just, I mean, obviously there's a lot of horrible racism. Well, this won't be unfamiliar to her, will it? Exactly, yeah. She knows what it's like when the fire gets turned up under you because it happened to her 20 years ago or 12 years ago or whenever it was relevant to the story, right? No, exactly.

Now Beyonce's reaction, we won't get that for a few more years. And that's kind of a typical Beyoncé thing. Kite Virgo Queen, close to the vest, baby. Never let him see you sweat. Karly There's this really great, it's an SNL bit and it's Maya Rudolph playing Beyoncé on Hot Ones, eating hotter and hotter chicken wings. And the idea is that Beyoncé would never go on Hot Ones because she would never be seen drinking milk in public.

Which I really like. And Maya Rudolph does a really wonderful performance and it's just like milk everywhere. It's gross. It's nasty. Beyonce, like you say, Virgo Queen, she keeps her cards very close to her chest, extremely close. But we do get a glimpse. And this glimpse comes in the form of an Instagram post that Beyonce or most likely Beyonce's people. I was like, one of Beyonce's social media gays. Yes, yeah. And it hits the social platform March 19th, 2024. So just a few short weeks ago, very recent, it's to announce the 10 day countdown

to the release of her highly anticipated country album. Yep. Act 2, Cowboy Carter. Cowboy Carter. Yep. Okay. And I was, I was actually thinking as you were telling me this, I was like, I wonder how much of Cowboy Carter is a response to this exact moment. Oh, dog, oh, dog. Okay, so it's a longer post that she writes underneath an image of the album cover. I think I've read this. Oh, yeah, you might have, yeah,

because it's like three million people have liked it. Well, I- Over three million. I wouldn't have, I like to play it quiet. I like to think that if I don't like it, Beyoncé will be like, Taylor didn't like it. Why not? And you know, maybe she'll think about me just briefly in the course of her day. But I did read it for sure. I'll read a little section here. At this point, she has released singles from the album, so she references those and how well they're doing in the charts. And then she says,

this album has been over five years in the making. It was born out of an experience that I had years ago where I did not feel welcomed. And it was very clear that I wasn't. But because of that experience, I did a deeper dive into the history of country music and studied our rich musical archives. Wow.

It feels good to see how music can unite so many people around the world, while also amplifying the voices of some of the people who have dedicated so much of their lives educating on our musical history. The criticisms I faced when I first entered this genre forced me to propel past the limitations that were put on me. Act two, referencing Cowboy Carter, is a result of challenging myself and taking my time to bend and blend genres together to create this body of work.

Good for her. And it goes on and da da da. But the final thing that she writes, the final like paragraph stanza, she says, this ain't a country album. This is a Beyonce album. This is a Beyonce album This is act to cowboy Carter and I am proud to share with y'all Y'all y'all exclamation point. I love the word y'all by the way

It accomplishes something that like the English language doesn't have which is like a strong you plural and gender neutral I felt like I was I guess kind of appropriating it when I moved here. And then I realized actually the spirit of y'all is that anybody and everybody can and should use it. Yeah, it's super inclusive. Y'all come back now. Wow. Yeah, no, interesting, interesting, interesting to know.

Yeah, I didn't know about this performance and I didn't know how directly it had influenced her production of Cowboy Carter. And what a cool thing to come from such a moment where you feel ill at ease or unwelcomed, which is just like the, one of those universally yucky feelings. Nobody likes to feel like they don't belong in a room,

especially a room full of people this big. And, and, and, and, and, which is again, something that like, in a way, what a good thing to have the chicks there as backup because they know what that's like. Yeah, that's true. And in fact, it was these fucking people.

Yeah, the same group of people. The exact same group of people. And so I think what a cool thing to be able to be like, why don't I just take this and make like a kick ass piece of art out of it that millions and millions of people can enjoy and take their own inspiration from and listen to on the way to work and shit like a kick-ass piece of art out of it. Yeah. That millions and millions of people can enjoy and take their own inspiration from and listen to on the way to work and shit like that.

So it's not like obviously incumbent upon anybody to do that with that, but it's been helpful to me in similar situations to do that with it. Yeah. And then again, we talk about, you know, the Dixie Chicks know what it's like to have the heat cranked up.

Beyonce lives in the fire by virtue of being like, exactly one of the preeminent black women celebrities of the day. She gets that on the regular. So I'm sure this is just like another shitty, another shitty room full of people trying to say no to her, but historically she's not somebody who no works on. And you'll notice that she does not say

the 2016 CMA Awards. I think it's pretty clear what it is if you do a little light research. Well, I read this and I didn't, because I didn't know about the CMA Awards, I assumed that she had like a bad meeting with some industry types or something. And that's, it could be that it's in combination

with that too. Yeah, of course. There could be a lot, obviously, her experience was not limited to just walking onto the stage and walking off. But Taylor, what is your relationship to country music? Do you listen to it? Do you like it? I like country music, I do. I think it gets a bad rap, country music.

If you'll forgive me mixing my musical metaphors. I think rap gets a bad rap too. I feel like there's that famous thing that everyone says like I listen to everything except rap and country. I like rap and country. I think that like I don't know that I always feel like seen by all country but like I like a lot of women country. I like, like I say, I like the country, that sort of gothic country atmosphere, like the night the lights went out in Georgia, or Goodbye Earl, where we're singing about how somebody,

like it's these kind of like folky narrative songs about how someone got like killed or something like that. I think those are sick. I even like a good like, you know, and, take it out into the pontoon, grill some brats and put it on a hat,, you know, and, and, uh, take it out into the pontoon, grill some brats and put it on a hat and you know, that shit. Yeah, that's pretty good. Get in the truck.

Yeah. Dog and waft. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. That shit. Yeah. It does, it does kind of get a bad rap country music and I think some of it

could be deserved. Let's, I mean, obviously there's a lot of shitty country music. That's just the same way. There's a lot of shitty music though, could be deserved. Let's, I mean, obviously. There's a lot of shitty country music. That's just the same way there's a lot of shitty music, though, to be fair. I think the ways that maybe country music can be shitty can be influenced by. The politics underpinning it. Exactly.

Yeah. I don't like the ones that are like, truss sucking dick in a small town, but I don't like those ones. No. Those ones make me feel like I might get my fucking teeth busted, because I'm at a gas station in the small town, but I don't like those ones. No. Those ones make me feel like I might get my fucking teeth busted because I'm at a gas station in the wrong town, you know?

I don't like those. Yeah, and that's not a good one. That's not a nice feeling. And there is a lot. I'll listen to the country station. I mean, there's a few here in Houston. And I would say probably 90% of it is male artists. And when they are female artists,

they're usually like pretty big, big names. And the songs are like- Dolly, Reba, Kacey Musgraves, Carrie Underwood. Lainey Wilson, yeah. And they tend to not be, it's not my favorite songs of theirs that are being played. It's like Heart Like a Truck. Heart Like a Truck!

I do like that song. Is that a real song? I got a heart like a truck. That's like that song. Is that a real song? I got a heart like a truck. That's sick. How do you say no to that? Stuck in the mud. Wow. Runs on dreams and gasoline.

See, how can people not like that? That's what I don't get. When people say like, I don't like country, I'm like, you don't like that? That's come on. It's pretty good. Did you just salute? I did just salute.

I heard an eagle go by, dude. I gotta say when it is at like full throat, when it is at full pitch, like red, white, blue style, Americana, there's nothing bad. I'm very much a professional wrestling fan speaking here, weaned on years of Vince McMahon shoving this shit down my throat. USA, USA, that shit is, there is something to it. I don't like it, I think it's, like, to be clear I think it's evil. But it's catchy. It's catchy.

It's catchy. It rolls off the tongue, dude. I love that. It's evil as fuck, but it is catchy. It's catchy. It's not nice. No, uh-uh. So according to uh Ken Burns who is an American documentarist and who made a 16-hour documentary called Country Music so

we'll just trust whatever he says. Okay well I'll put it to you this way if it's 16 hours long I hope it's good for his sake. In other words, than a shitty 16 hour long documentary. So he's talking about that kind of bad rap that country music can get. He says, I don't know why we denigrate country music. We superficially label it, you know, pick up trucks and good old boys and hound dogs and six packs of beer, when it is in fact dealing with the fundamental questions of the human project, which is love and loss, end quote. So Kenny Burns goes kind of philosophical,

I'd say with it, but there is that famous line from Harlan Howard, country music is three chords and the truth, which is catchy. That's a very catchy way to put it. It's catchy, not necessarily evil. But not evil. I do think too, I do think that like in terms of the political aspects that underpins it, I think that to some degree people's distaste for country is somewhat analogous to some similar people's distaste for rap, and that there's a little bit of an element of like thinking you're

better than, you know, I'm not a gangster, I'm not a hillbilly, like because you have these stereotypical ideas of who is the type of person that produces this type of media. Yeah, yeah, and you don't want to be associated with that. Right, and that's a very, so it's a very like, I don't know, it's a very lefty thing to poo-poo country music when like there's good country music the same way that there's good R&B, the same way that there's good trip hop, the same way that there's good anything. It's a genre.

There's always gonna be all these different things in it. But I do think that we're talking about maybe all these different facets of country too, right? It's a genre, so it's very wide. And I think this post-911 country music can be extremely jingoistic. It can be extremely exclusionary and politically minded. Because it's all about like, rah rah, America, America. And there's not a lot of room for dissent, which is part of, at least outlaw country music, it has a long history of that.

And yet kind of like post 9-11 country music, you can't say anything bad about the president, obviously. Yeah, oh God, no, you'll get jumped out of town. Throwing a trash can. But I think that really right wing association with country music actually goes even further back. Cause in the late sixties, at the end of the Civil Rights Movement we see country music starting to get tied to the Republican Party. Okay. So Nixon

actually invites quite a few country music stars. Those girls told me that country music was popular. Yes, Nixon's star of the well known documentary, Dick. Yeah. Listen to it over at Bittersweet Film Club. Nixon was really into country music and probably from what we know of the documentary, not because he actually liked it someplace deep in his soul. Nixon didn't really like things, I don't think. No, I don't think. Treachery.

I think that's a fact. Yeah. Evil. Okay. But he was looking for something catchy. He wanted to be able to speak to that Republican, that working class, that white population that was latching on to country music and the traditions that it embodied because there was so much civil change happening in America. So that becomes kind of this dividing point for country music being aligned specifically with a political and conservative viewpoint. Now I'd say that country music even before then, like country music is about examining the past and upholding traditions, right? So it's always going to be somewhat... My wife left me,

past tense. Yes, yeah, exactly. It's always going to be somewhat conservative leaning because it just looks at the world through a lens of conserving things, of conserving land, of conserving traditions, of conserving ways of life that are quickly leaving. And so it's going to be conservative by its very nature, but does it have to be right-wing? Does it have to be white supremacist? Does it have to be misogynistic? I don't think so. I would argue no. I'm not a country music expert, but I don't think anything has to be that, if it don't want to be. Right, exactly. So this all denies, though, the very real fact that Black musicians and a lot of musicians of color have been involved in the creation of country music and are integral to country music. Certainly. So country music itself, if you break it down in terms of the musicology,

which I am not a musicologist, but it can be traced to Irish and Celtic traditions, as well as African musical traditions. If you think about a defining instrument of American country music, the banjo. Yeah. The banjo. The banjo directly comes from West Africa. It is a West African instrument.

Yes. Damn. Yes. Fun fact, tell a friend, folks. Here's your fun fact for the day. Don't say we don't keep you fed. Yeah, exactly. And then if you think about the fiddle,

which the chicks play, they use the fiddle in all their songs. Chucks, yes. That comes from Ireland and Northern Europe and yodeling. That's another element from Europe. It is this amalgamation of cultures. So to say that it is kind of this one monolith thing is not looking at the history. It's very convenient.

It's not looking at the history. It's very convenient. It's not looking at the history. It's choosing the history that you look at. And it's also, you know, country music is an American musical tradition. And by that very definition, it is therefore intrinsically black. Cause American history is black history. Black history is American.

There's no way that you can. Especially when we're talking about like art forms that generate from the American South, like are you fucking kidding me? Come on. Exactly. And I do think that music as an art form does have this ability to kind of mend and mold in... It can be one of the more flexible art forms. Yes. And in ways that can transcend culture alone. Yes. Yeah. When we talk about American country music, things kind of get tracked to like the late 20s because that's when it starts to be recorded. So there's the birth of the Grand Old Opry, which is a venue in Nashville,

which has now become like, if you are a country artist and if you hit the Grand Old Opry stage, you have made it. This is like the end all be all down home, good old boys. Like this. Yeah, but keep going, keep going. No, more country things, more and more, keep going. Okay, cowboy boots, fringe. More. Hot dogs.

One more. Beer. Good job. We can do that. I think you kind of like went into like carnival at the end. That's okay. That's okay. Yeah, I think I did. Hot dogs and beer.

So there's a really wonderful historian of country music and her name is Alice Randall. She's a fiction writer, she's a professor, and she's also a country music songwriter. Fun. She is also a black woman. She has a really wonderful book out that it's a few years old now it's called Black Country. She's a really wonderful writer and she's also kind of like invoking a lot of the lovely language of that can accompany the folksy Americana vibe. With which she'll be very familiar as like a scholar and writer of country. Yeah. Interesting. What's your name? Alice Randall. Alice Randall, thank you. This book has, it's a history

and it's a memoir actually, which is really fun and I think kind of in a country tradition. But she tracks the contribution that Black musicians have made to country music. And I'll give kind of a brief overview, because she starts with a harmonica player named DeFord Bailey, who performed at the Grand Ole Opry in 1927. I, sorry, I don't mean to correct you, um, Grand Ole Opry? The Grand Ole Opry. Ole, Ole Opry? The Grand Ole Opry.

Ole Opry. So, according to Randall, DeFord was able to defy and evade the structural obstacles created to keep his voice off the radio and to keep him out of the public. But he never did have the same opportunities that his white contemporaries had. So this is a recording of DeFord Bailey playing a song called Fox Chase, and he's playing the harmonica, and he's on the stage of the Grand Ole Opry. The next artist that she highlights is a Memphis-born black pianist. Her name was Lil Hardin Armstrong.

And she was recorded on numerous albums including Blue Yodel No. 9, which is kind of like a hallmark track of early country music. This is Blue Yodel number nine. Is that is that about the vibe? Yeah, dog, that was it. You nailed it. It actually sounds like this. This is a recording of Lil Hardin Armstrong playing the piano accompanied with Louis Armstrong, her husband, and the famous country singer Jimmy Rogers. Standing on the corner, I didn't mean no harm.

Alice Randall writes, particularly this time, but I think it's really relevant for how we don't know this history. She says, often they took the exact same recording that a black country artist and a white country artist made and they marketed it one to a white audience and one to a black audience sometimes changing the name of the group. There's a lot of cultural redlining that is actually separating things that are not intrinsically separate. I love that phrase cultural redlining that is actually separating things that are not intrinsically separate. I love that phrase, cultural redlining, because that redlining happens in American real estate, it happens kind of all over the place, but the cultural redlining of this creates separate

history where there really is none. It is a shared history. It's a very economic way to put the point that I was kind of fumbling around for earlier which is like the sort of like what makes Beyonce quote an R&B artist who has no business being in country. It's because it's it's cultural redlining right to a degree. Yeah. That having that notion I mean to say. Yeah you don't belong here right like that one fuck tweet. Yeah exactly. So another name this mentions is Charlie Pride. Do you know Charlie Pride? Nope, you mentioned him earlier. Yeah, because he was at the 2016 CMAs. Interesting. He came up in the 60s and the 70s as a Black country star. And I did not know this, but he

actually started as a picture in the Negro leagues. He played baseball. He was a professional baseball player. Fascinating. A man for all seasons. Yeah, It is really, really gnarly. Like he played with Jackie Robinson. And Jackie Robinson jumped into the quote unquote major leagues, which included white players. And Charlie, Charlie didn't, he was successful enough, but he chose to go with country music instead. And fair enough decision sounds like we're still talking about him, right? Yeah. He appeared at the Grand Ole Opry in 1967 and there's a large gap between him and the first performer. He's the second black performer to be on the Grand Ole Opry stage since 1941. So that's like, it's a long time. Yes. He wins entertainer of the year at the country music awards in 1971. He's a really well-known black country artist. They did a

lot of promotion for him where his face was not seen on the records. They wanted white audiences to first accept his voice and then to then to learn later. A little visual JK Rowling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But he still had a pretty successful country career. He died in 2020. RIP. So relatively recently. But he was a contemporary of Willie Nelson. Him and Willie got along really well. That's a good guy to get along with Willie Nelson. Yeah, yeah. In the research that I found for Charlie Pride, he talked a lot about feeling the need to stay quiet a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah.

And he was very clear about it. He's like, it's not that I didn't want to say anything, and it's not that I didn't have a lot to say. It wasn't safe for him to say anything. He essentially said like, I just wanted to pick my battles. I just wanted to pick my battles. And in fact, you know, one of those battles

was that Willie Nelson used the N word as a common parlance between them. Ah, Willie. Charlie was asked about this, like how could you listen to that? How could you take that? And Charlie just said, you know what? I know Willie.

And Willie's my friend. Willie would stand up for me. And I'm going to stand up for him. And he didn't mean it that way. We had a relationship. I knew what he meant. And, you know, like, to each their own, Willie, like, fucking get your shit together.

Willie, Willie, Willie. He's up on that. He's up on that stuff, man. own. Sure. Willie like fucking get your shit together. Willie, Willie, Willie. He's off on that. He's off on that stuff, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think Charlie was working. There were a lot of forces.

Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it. Cause Charlie came up in the sixties and the seventies during the civil rights movement, as we see the, the shift of country music to become more conservative, more white supremacist, more misogynistic, all of that. What a shame.

Yeah. So here's Charlie Pride doing a live performance on the Marty Stewart show, singing one of his classics called Kiss an Angel Good Morning. One of the main men of all time in the Country Music Hall of Fame. That's right, superlatives. How about a hand, ladies and gentlemen, for Mr. Charlie Pride. Where are you, Mr. Pride? Oh! Thank you. Hello, Sam. Thank you.

Wherever I tend to be, some old friends on the street, Linda Martel is another important name. She's the first black female country artist to perform with the Grand Ole Opry. Linda Martel came out with an album in 72 called Color Me Country. Hey. I really recommend it. It's a great album. OK. It has a nice kind of 70s swing to it. Oh, you know what I like, babe.

You know what I like. Yeah. And she's great. She has a wonderful voice. And she's in a few other bands before she land, or a few other genres before she lands in country. But she is kind of a mainstay of, in particular, black female country artists.

And she actually is featured on Cowboy Carter. Cool. She has like a little interlude discussion about genres, which I remember. I remember. Yeah, that's Linda Martel. Cool. Yeah.

So here's a track from Linda Martel from her album, Color Me Country. And I think it's my favorite song on the album. It's called Color Him Father. And another important Black country artist that Alice Randell mentions is fucking Ray Charles. Georgia, yeah. Bad tracks. In 1962, he comes out with, well, he's given the creative freedom to kind of do whatever he wants to do.

And what he chooses to do is a record entitled Modern Sounds and Country and Western Music. Cool. What he produces is, like, he's taking Hank Williams songs, he's taking kind of these like, you are my sunshine is one of them, like these very traditional country sounding songs, and he reconstructs them in kind of like a big band style or like a jazzy style. Like each one is a little different. Alice Randall says of Ray Charles's album, it was a constructing and deconstructing of country music, something of a spiritual predecessor to Cowboy Carter by Beyonce, which I think is kind of interesting because even Ken Burns points to Ray Charles's

country album as being like one of the greatest country albums. Interesting. I have to give this a listen now. I'm not a huge fan of kind of the Sinatra style ballad or like the kind of jazzy big band. That's not- That's spreading the news. I mean, I love it when you do it, let's be honest. Thank you, thank you. Look at that.

Let's spread the news, right? It's really cool. It really is interesting to hear kind of these country standards put in another context, especially kind of knowing more of the history that I've been able to learn. So this is Ray Charles' version of You Are My Sunshine as it features on Modern Sounds and Country and Western Music, Volume one and two. So Ray Charles brings us back to Beyonce and Act 2, Cowboy Carter.

And of this album, Alice Randall says, Beyonce is not just racking up downloads and inspiring TikTok dances, which is, you know, like a pop singer, I suppose, is what she's alluding to there. And it's also like a signifier of popularity. Commercial metrics, right? An icon, yeah. But yeah. Alice Randall says, Beyonce is also drawing attention to the whitewashing of a genre that has long

silenced its black voices and predictably drawing backlash from country music gatekeepers. Nobody likes to hear the truth from what they perceive to be an outsider. It just never goes over well. Yeah. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen, but it can be a hard sell at the best of times. Cowboy Carter, having been released only a few weeks ago, it has been in the news and it has been getting people asking the question, like, what is the relationship between Black musicians and country music? Like, how are these separate? How are they together? Is country music Black music? Is Black and country music. Like, how are these separate? How are they together?

Is country music Black music? Is Black music country music? And we've gone over briefly some of the history. And like, answer is yes. And yes. And yes. And it is kind of funny though, because that CMA performance in 2016,

the song itself as it's recorded and as its like lyrics are listed, starts with the repetition of the word Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Texas. Dude, this gimmick has legs. This gimmick has legs. What a shame I didn't have it together for the episode that was entirely New Zealand, hey? Have to bring it out during the fucking CMAs episode. I'll bring you another one. I'll bring you another one, okay?

Thank you. The chucks. Oh, the chucks. The chucks. So Beyonce is from Texas. She's actually from Houston. She was from New York. Yeah, H-Town, baby. Yeah. Which is just over there. The most famous Houstonian I wager currently living. I was from Air Ford. Yeah, HTI baby. Which is just over there.

The most famous Houstonian I wager currently living. I'd agree with that. I definitely agree with that. Her mother is Creole from Louisiana and her father is African. My daddy Alabama. Yep. I know Beyonce's specific ethnic makeup so well she tells me often. She really does.

She really does. And Fairfax to her. Good for her. I told you my specific ethnic makeup last episode i'm not judging. did you know that beyonce is her mom's maiden name? no interesting. i don't think it's the exact spelling because beyonce has an accent on the on her final week. right she has an ex-sante gear. yeah i didn't i didn't know that that was kind of cool. she went to high school for performing and visual arts here in Houston. Yeah, she went to one of those fucking fame high schools. I know, HSPVA is always like, Beyoncé went here, Beyoncé went... She went there for like a month. Why not?

Why not? I know, at that point. You're not gonna hang your hat on it. And it is a fantastic school. It really is. Oh, I would have liked to have gone to a school like that, I think. I think that would have been cool. I know.

As a little theater kid, you know, it would have suited me. Beyoncé has had a deep interest in country music. And we can see that in Lemonade, we see it with Daddy Lessons. She alludes to it in her notes that she wrote ahead of Cowboy Carter, I think that she's like, oh, it seems like something she's had a lot of conversations with people about. You know, the question of like, well, why is it coming out now? It's like well because it's exclusionary and she probably didn't feel welcome in it. Like there's a lot of different reasons. Yeah.

Also what do you want like it takes a second to produce a piece art. Calm down bud. Yeah. Go have a canapé you know. Yeah. Very Canadian. I don't know why. I meant it very Canadian. I meant it very Canadian. I don't know why. I meant it very Canadian. I meant it very Canadian. Good, good, good.

She's had this like deep love for country music for a really long time. And I think if you kind of like unearth her discography, you'll find even more bright crumbs and traces of it. But I think another interesting thing about Beyoncé is she's really interested in the way that musical cultures kind of mix and mingle together and it's not just country music. When she was kind of more in her R&B phase in the early 2000s, she released like a Norteno version of one of her songs. Okay. And she's sung in Spanish. Yeah, I know that Beyonce has done a couple songs in Spanish Which I think kind of like if you're gonna challenge Beyonce on like why are you doing a country album? It's like well, she's an artist

She can do all these different things cuz she has the skill and she has the Stephen King Why are you writing a comedy book? Cuz he got a fucking board man. Chill out chill out yeah it's not that deep no exactly exactly and in her post that she shared where she talks about kind of the research that she was doing for cowboy carter and the time that she took to do it too it is pretty apparent because she does have all these different artists on cowboy carter with her I mentioned Linda Martel, but she also has Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton. She also invited a number of black country musicians to join her. And that includes Robert Randolph.

He plays the pedal steel guitar, as well as Rihanna Giddens, who is a Pulitzer Prize winner in music for a contemporary opera entitled Omar. And she's also a Black country artist. She's maybe one of the bigger names there and I think maybe also one of the bigger influences on the album. If you listen to some of Rihanna Giddens', they feel that kind of like big sound that Texas Hold'em, one of the singles from Cowboy Carter, has that like kind of like overwhelming Louisiana, like New Orleans street band sound. She has a lot of that. And so I think there was quite a bit of influence there.

I like when Beyonce dips into the New Orleans sounds. I think she's really good at it. Me too. Yeah and I think Daddy Listens, that CMA performance definitely has that there. Oh come on. I was gonna say you couldn't tell by the fucking 68,000 brass instruments. No. In fact, Rihanna Giddens was at that CMA performance. She was one of the performers. Yeah. Oh interesting, fun. So there's like a little bit of a connection there too then in terms of like we know that that was a foundational moment in pushing Beyonce towards this album. And certainly a collaborator. And Cowboy Carter debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, of course. And in doing so, Beyonce became the first woman and second artist overall to debut her first eight albums at number

one. Jesus Christ. The chart topper that Beyonce references actually in that Instagram post is the fact that she with Cowboy Carter, debuting number one at the Americana slash folk albums and top album sales of country albums She is the first black woman to have a number one country album, which is a great fuck you To that guy in the red shirt from Like this you're gonna hate what I do next. I love the storyline, I love that trajectory of somebody receiving that bad energy and just being like, I'm gonna jiu-jitsu this energy and just throw it right back.

You haven't even seen my final form yet. You don't even know what's going on. Yeah, no, exactly. It's so good. Yeah, and in a very high road kind of way too. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. She never names the scene. No, just has a great artistic

and professional accomplishment out of the whole thing. Good for her. And it's clear that the negative responses to Cowboy Carter and even just the constant kind of questioning of like, is she allowed to have a country album? I think it's definitely fueled by racism and misogyny. Yeah, misogyny too, that's true. And it's America, so we can feel pretty confident in those. And that determination.

It's evil, but it's catchy. It's evil, but it's catchy. It's evil, but it's catchy. But I do think there is room for criticism that is not engaging in that type of negativity. Yeah, I agree. There's a really wonderful Black country artist. Her name is Yasmin Williams, and she plays the steel guitar. And her stuff is really cool sounding.

She's really awesome. She had an article published in The Guardian that was a review of Cowboy Carter. And I'm going to read a bit of it here. She says, I'm an internationally touring acoustic guitarist from Virginia who has studied American vernacular music. The promise of Beyonce's country album was exciting to me, as were the personnel on its two lead singles. Rihanna Giddens, who we mentioned, playing banjo and viola on Texas Hold'em. Banjo, West African instrument. Spread it, spread the word. And Robert Randolph, who played pedal steel on 16 Carriages, another single. 15 Carriages, I remember that one. Good.

These are black country and folk artists who work within Black traditional lineages that deserve to be highlighted and celebrated for their specificity. However, on hearing Cowboy Carter this weekend, I felt as though little work had been done to utilize the breadth of knowledge of Beyonce's collaborators or the Black country traditional music community at large. Okay. Beyonce settled for using Giddens banjo and Randolph's pedal steel as props to back up the overall prediction on the record instead of boosting these traditions to the forefront

on an album with an artificial sheen. Moreover, it felt in greater conversation with an exclusionary mainstream and like a capitalistic gesture to insert itself into that world." End quote. Fair. Absolutely. Yeah. Fair and spoken by, like I am not an internationally touring guitarist from Virginia with knowledge of the vernacular extensively, right?

Like so I take what's her name? Her name is Yasmin Williams. I take Yasmin's critique to be much more informed than mine. I think Beyonce to a degree kind of comes with that sheen. Yeah. You know what I mean? She's shiny. She's very mainstream.

She's subversive in her ways as an artist. And like, I wouldn't say that like her message is always like, especially in recent years as she's done it, like we say like formation and da, da, da, da, da. I wouldn't say that like, it's always something that's like palatable to like the widespread of America. She has clear political stances and good for her. But I do think in terms of like her packaging as an artist, it's that Virgo thing, right?

It's like, I don't put it to this way. I don't really like her Jolene because I think it takes a song that was wrenchingly vulnerable and totally strips the most interesting thing from it, which is that. And interestingly enough, because Dolly Parton has an interlude before it, and Dolly Parton maintains that vulnerability. She says something to the effect of like the red-haired maven of my song, God bless her soul. Like she, you know, like she says something. It's nicer than bless her heart because bless her heart is like mean. Everyone's on to that one by now. Yeah, yeah. It's 2024. It's 2024. If I'm in Canada and I know bless your heart is shade That's no good then you need to get the council of old conservative white ladies together and come up with a new one

Yeah, no, I yeah I agree with you I like that I really liked the album broadly like it definitely had that sheen but that's to me that's sort of a Beyonce sheen, right? she's so she's so she's so big and she's got and so beautiful and she's like I've never seen her fuck up a performance and she's like a bit an a++ plus Megalist star with all this money behind her I think that to a degree it'll always kind of feel a bit shiny coming from Beyonce and engaged completely and wholly with the mainstream yes because Beyonce gets three million likes when she explains her album. And if you or I were trying to take some random person

on the street and explain our art to them, they would literally be, they would walk into traffic. They would be like, who the fuck are you? This is depressing me. Yeah, that feels right. Yeah, and I guess I kind of struggle with the idea that like the metric of that critique is that she's too mainstream, but it's kind of like, but it's Beyonce. So why, like, why are we even engaging? But she also made the points, points to the effect of like, Oh, I thought that like, these

people who were used in sort of an almost cameo capacity could have been better utilized. I'm sympathetic to that. I think the other angle of that too is that Act Two, Cowboy Carter is meant to kind of be this like black country music, full on, like here you go America.

Like you didn't think it could happen? Well, you know who can make it happen? Beyonce can make it happen. Naturally, naturally. Yeah, which is, that's not true. There's been all these other people behind you. I do agree with Yasmin Williams. I don't think that there's enough of a collaboration.

Like, I think you said cameo. It's very Beyonce forward. Which like, who can deny her that there's enough of a collaboration. Like I think you said cameo. It's very Beyonce forward. Which like who can deny her that it's Beyonce. Yeah. But I think that there's this idea that Cowboy Carter as an album itself is responsible for the discussion and responsible for a transformation. And I think that is where that gets a little unfair because just because Beyonce had the biggest megaphone

to speak it into doesn't mean that other people haven't been asking that question and engaging with that situation and really trying to create understanding. And just because she has like the loudest voice in the conversation, I don't think means that she should get all the credit. She shouldn't get all the credit,

but I do think that there is something special about having a sizable platform that you've built through your own hard work, right? That you like to use a large platform in a good way is I think commendable. No, that's true. It doesn't mean that you get like it doesn't mean that you fucking Invented glue or anything, but no, it's not what she's taking credit for why glue Taylor. I don't know That's it's it's your the nine palaces. It's throbbing tonight I'm giving some of my best out put in here. It's all it's all the horses that we've we've been referencing Yeah, absolutely all the glue and I'm giving some of my best out put in years. No. It's all the horses that we've been referencing.

Yeah, absolutely. All the glue. And I'm sympathetic to her. I've always said, as a matter of fact, the phrase that I've always used about fame is, I wanna be, and this has since changed, but when I was younger, I thought about it in terms of what level of fame do you want?

And I would always say, I want Kelly Rowland fame. I think Michelle Williams, there's someone else with the same name who's more famous than you, not good. Yeah. Beyonce, everything you do is put under a microscope and everything you do is endlessly discussed by people like me and Josie who don't even know you.

But then you got that Kelly Rowland thing where like, if you just don't wear makeup and put on a ball cap and some sweats and go to like the, you know, the corner, so you can probably get in and out, right? Like you're pretty good. You can still swing like. Some invites to some cool stuff. People still know and love and respect Kelly Rowland.

She still has some hits, but like, she's not Beyonce famous where like, you can't fucking everything you do really is put under this microscope. I find that quite intrusive, right? And so to that degree, I think I'm like, I kind of soft peddle my criticism of people like Beyonce. I mean, I, I'm saying some more critical things, but the fact remains that I love Cowboy Carter and I listened to it a lot. I think it's really a great album.

Does it ever like throw you off that she says this ain't Texas, but you look around and it is? Does that ever create a problem? The GPS has to kick in. Certainly. Certainly. Yeah. I know that it's funny that like that single, I think it is in direct relation to Daddy Lessons where she says Texas, Texas, Texas. And then her next country song comes out and says, This Ain't Texas. But I do really love the album. And one of the ways that I really love it is it does feel like I can like country.

I grew up listening to a lot of country, like a lot of folk, a lot of like singer-songwriter country music. Right. like a lot of folk, a lot of like singer-songwriter country music, because my mom would listen to it. And I didn't really know what to make of it as a teenager because I was like, you know, because it was the early 2000s. As good as the 2000s and you really left. Country music fucking sucks. I hate Bush. I like the Dixie Chicks. I was a big like Dixie Chicks fan. But it was really hard to kind of reconcile it for me. It's hard to sometimes reconcile yourselves with the fan club. Yes, yeah, and I do feel like there's plenty of other country artists that I

have enjoyed without having to do all of that work and a lot of them are women and I love Dolly Parton. And there's all these ways that I've really enjoyed it, but there is something really marvelous about Cowboy Carter is mainstream country. And that I can find maybe a way to understand other mainstream country if I know that Cowboy Carter is there, kind of booing me, you know, which sure I'm grateful for that. That's cool. That's a nice thought.

I mean, not that I'm going to hear any cowboy Carter on the country radio stations here. That's I'm going to get. I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free and I love to watch the eagles fly and drop their shit on me. Now I got you. That's good, Doug. That's really nice. I'm quick on the fly. But I think one thing to remember with Cowboy Carter

is that it is only act two. Uh-oh. We have another act coming. How many Beyonce? How many acts do you have? It is a trilogy. She said it was a trilogy. OK, OK. So we have one more act coming. But who knows? How many acts do you have? It is a trilogy. She said it was a trilogy.

Okay, okay. So we have one more act coming. But who knows? Maybe there'll be like part one. Sub-acts. Listen. It's Shakespearean structure and so on. Interesting. Taylor, what's your favorite country song? And can you sing a little bit? Not that you haven't graced us with them. I've been performing all fucking night. I think it was- All night, you really have. I think it was being in proximity to Beyonce and the Chicks.

I felt like I needed to step my game up or something. I'm not sure. The Chucks? The Chucks. Things are set me straight. I would say, yeah, I got it. I'm fucking, I'm the real star, me. Yeah.

No, I would say, what are some of my favorite, okay, first of all, I wanna say shouts to, can't believe we didn't mention it, Old Town Road, Lil Nas X for like, black and queer, you know what I mean? That's cool. Yeah, black and queer, and Orville Peck. Yeah, so there's like a non-conventional,

even like Casey Musgraves, it's just chill shit, right? Like it's nice, it's nice to have variety in the landscape i will say if you want to go like um i want to say Jolene probably just by this much it is Jolene it's just such a it's it's a perfect song i think and maybe that's why i'm not uh fair to Beyonce's elaboration on it but i think that the original Jolene is a perfect song i don't think there's anything that needs to be touched about it. It's, it, it does ex- it's... I can't think of a song that does what it does, certainly not as economically. Dolly sounds a treat. It's Jolene. Fancy number two.

Okay. Number three, any Martina McBride song where a woman or child gets beaten to death. Which there's a lot. That's like most of them. Yeah dog. That's great. How about you? How about you? There's there yeah I think there's there's quite a few by Dolly. I really do love 9 to 5. I think 9 to 5 is really good. Yeah yeah. See I don't even think of that as a country song. That's so like um. That's true. I guess maybe because it's like a movie soundtrack. So I like I I mentally sorted into like film score or something.

I don't know. Yeah. You know, that kind of like brings this question up yet again. Is it like, is it the person who sings it or is it the genre of the song itself? And then the genre of the song kind of like falls apart and disassembles. And so where, where does one thing end and the other begin? So I was just thinking about this one today, so I'll say this one too. My mom really likes Lyle Lovett, who's a...

Right, of used to fuck Julia Roberts fame. Yes, exactly. So he has this song, it's called That's Right in parentheses, You're Not From Texas. And it goes, that's right, you're not from Texas, but Texas wants you anyway. And my mom- So sort of the opposite of don't mess with Texas almost. Yeah, it's kind of like y'all, it's a y'all song. Yeah, it's a welcoming in.

Come on in. And my mom, who is from Texas and raised her kids in California, she would play that for us. It had this like special meaning of like- It was significant. It was connecting you with your roots. You're not from here.

Yes, but you're always welcome. And now I've lived in Texas for nine years, so... That's it. That's a job well done. It's a job very well done. Job very well done, I would say. Very worthy of being the mantle of our last episode before the Miltese. Vote in the Miltese. We will see you at the Miltese.

Please vote. Please vote. Don't make us feel like silly billies. Vote for Sinead O'Connor. May 19th. Sinead O'Connor. We're going straight bald on the ballot this year because there was an error in the fucking typing. You're voting her for the Hall of Fame and you're voting episode number 62, Fight the Real Enemy as the best episode. See ya in number 100! And you gotta vote by Sunday, May 19th, 11am Pacific Time. tinyurl.com slash infamy100. Y'all come vote now!

You here? Whee! Thanks for listening. If you want more infamy, we've got plenty more episodes at bittersweetinfamy.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to support the podcast, shoot us a few bucks via our Ko-fi account at ko-fi.com forward slash bittersweetinthemy. But no pressure, bittersweetinthemy is free, baby. You can always support us by liking, rating, subscribing,

leaving a review, following us on Instagram at bittersweetinthemy, or just pass the podcast along to a friend who you think would dig it. Stay sweet! along to a friend who you think would dig it. Stay sweet. The sources that I used for this episode include excerpts from the book, My Black Country, A Journey Through Country Music's Black Past,

Present and Future, written by Alice Randall. Came out April, 2024. I also looked in the article on Vox.com written by Avisha Artszi entitled Beyoncé's Country Roots published March 26, 2024. I looked at Beyoncé's very own Instagram. I also read an article in The Tennessean written by Andrea Williams entitled Superstar Beyoncé called out country music. That's huge. That was published

March 22nd, 2024. I write an article in Billboard.com. Here's why fans think Beyonce is calling out the CMA Awards written by Hannah Daly published March 19th, 2024. Another article from Billboard.com, Beyonce and Dixie Chicks Duet, one of CMA Awards' buzziest moments absent from show's website. Update. This was written by Adele Platon, November 3rd, 2016. I read an article in the Los Angeles Times, conservative country music fans lash out at CMA performance by Beyoncé and the Dixie Chicks Written by Randall Roberts published November 3rd 2016 I listened to an NPR interview the conservative evolution of country music with a music historian Lester Fader and it was posted February 18th 2007 another interview from NPR

2007. Another interview from NPR entitled, Ken Burns gets to the heart of country music. This was posted September 14th, 2019. That review by Yasmin Williams and The Guardian was entitled, Beyonce's country album drowns out the black music history it claims to celebrate and it was published April 2nd, 2024. I looked at the Wikipedia page for the chicks. The musical clips that you heard throughout the episode, they all were from YouTube videos. The first one, Beyoncé and Dixie Chicks, Daddy Lessons, Live at CMA Awards 2016, that was posted by Beyoncé Lives December 10th, 2016. The recording of DeFord Bailey's Fox Chase was posted by Robert Montgomery October 20th,

2008. The recording of Blue Yodel 9 with Louis Armstrong and Lil Hardin Armstrong and Jimmy Rogers was posted by Mool Zilla July 24th, 2015. Charlie Pride's Kiss an Angel Good Morning was posted by Marty Stewart Videos, January 5th, 2009. Linda Martel's Color Him Father was posted by GD73, December 21st, 2009. Ray Charles' You Are My Sunshine was posted by Ray Charles February 21st 2019. That's right. You're not from Texas provided to YouTube by Curb Records.

Special shout out to our monthly subscribers Jonathan Mountain Lizzy D and Erica Jo Brown. Thank you for your support. If you too would like to support head over to coffee.com slash bittersweet infamy to make a donation and access some exclusives including the bittersweet film club. Bittersweet infamy is a member of the 604 podcast network. The interstitial music you heard earlier was by Mitchell Collins and the song you are listening to now is Tea Street by Bryan Steele. ["Tea Street"] Texas won't you anyway That's right, you're not from Texas That's right, you're not from Texas That's right, you're not from Texas

Texas won't you anyway Texas won't you anyway