Blank Check with Griffin & David - Dances with Wolves

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

In a first for Blank Check, we’re covering a filmmaker who has acted alongside our own Griffin Newman! In our premiere episode covering the directorial career of Draft Day co-star Kevin Costner, we���re unpacking his 1990 Best Picture winner, DANCES WITH WOLVES. Costner as personal mythmaker, Costner as “movie sports guy,” Costner as “hot guy who women all want to sleep with (?)”, Costner as man who decided - at a crucial (and early!) point in his career - to take a huge risk by making a 3-hour epic in an old-fashioned genre. He’s a fascinating figure. Come west with us, listeners, as we discover the frontiers within ourselves and within Lieutenant John Dunbar. This episode is sponsored by: Quince (quince.com/check) Zocdoc (zocdoc.com/check)  Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack There were people so eager to laugh, so devoted to family. I gotta start this over. Okay. Young Costner, Young Costner. No, you were fine. There were people so eager to laugh, so devoted to family, so dedicated to each other.

The only word that came to mind is podcast. Mm-hmm. What's the, what's the weird thing about this? Harmony? Good writing. I can't tell in advance if this is one of those episodes where everyone's gonna get mad at us. Oh boy, what a way to kick off.

But here's a hot take right off the top. I just noticed that an Academy Award winning screenplay. Yep. Carry on. Do you know this one, the Academy Award for best picture? That I knew. That one I can actually explain more than best screenplay, but go ahead.

We'll talk about this. We'll talk about all this I think and excuse me if this is a take the people been throwing around for years that I've just missed or I'm standing alone on a ledge here this movie's improved if you cut all the fucking voiceover out the voiceover is not helping anything and I'm not one of these people who always thinks voiceover is like fucking lazy crush by no means. I think in particular, I think the writing in this movie is never worse than in the voiceover. And I think the voiceover plays to all of Costner's weaknesses as an actor. Whereas the rest of the movie is mostly designed around his strengths.

Every time they go to the voiceover, I'm like, I would be fucking angry thinking about Good Fellas losing to this in 1990. Good Fellas, a movie that uses voiceover as well as any movie ever? It's a great point. The divide between those two. They went up against each other, it's true. One of the best voiceover narration jobs of all time versus a really pitiful one. Used well, well written, well performed. This movie also drops the voiceover.

Like, and whenever you drop the voiceover midway into your movie, that also suggests to me that you never should have had it. But then it will like, it'll be gone for 20 minutes and it'll come back and every time it comes back you're like, oh, fuck. And it's the kind of thing where it's like, does Cosner trust himself that like, because it feels like, oh fuck. And it's the kind of thing where it's like, does Cosner trust himself that like, because it feels like often he does. He is sort of historically an actor who's like, cut down the dialogue. I can convey this with a look. That's a lot of his power as a movie star and as a storyteller. And there will be sequences where he'll look at something, you'll be like,

it's all there on his face. And then Cosnergo goes, in that moment I was thinking, I liked these people. And it's not built around his journals, right? No, like loosely. It's not like someone later finds the journals and is like, oh, these are good. Yeah. Like maybe does that once where the voiceover is like coinciding

with like him writing in his journal. He's got a gurnal, but you're right. It's not over the like, it's not like he's doing a captain's log at the end of every day. What's this podcast? This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography. I am David. Yeah, you guys could, could you redo it as if you're writing and you're- It's a podcast about filmographies.

Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. That's kind of the energy of his voiceover. I'm not saying I have the voice right. A little low energy. Yeah. It's stoic. That's kind of the energy of his voiceover. I'm not saying I have the voice right. Yeah.

It's stoic. But talk about a fucking crazy hit right out of the gate. They said it couldn't be done. Everyone doubted this guy. He makes this movie. It makes fucking $400 million worldwide and wins Best Picture. We're talking about Kevin Costner. Kevin Costner. We're talking about Kevin Costner. Kevin Costner! We're talking about the Costs, a man who this year is beginning his four-pronged...

Yes, is riding right off a cliff into either Valhalla or the pit. Yeah. The pit of debt. Yes. It's one of the big stories of film this year. Coppola and Costner, the two guys who are open up their own fucking checkbook. The check is blank, but it's tied to their own fucking personal funds and are making the crazy passion projects that no one else will let get made. The only other time we've covered someone who's done something like that is George Lucas. Sure. Right. Like this counts. Shyamalan counts a little bit on a smaller scale.

You're right. On a smaller scale. These are all guys who essentially write, write their own checks against themselves in a way. Now, someone like Coppola is not like, I need this to clear. He's more like, this is what I'm going to make, you know, near the end of my life with all my money. near the end of my life with all my money. Costner, Shyamalan is like, my movies are kind of designed to make a profit by opening weekend. Costner's kind of in the middle, where he's like, look, my kids end up broke, okay. That's the thing.

They got to roll the rainbow. I don't want them to. Right. We're like, yes, no. Costner's made it clear, he's got a reasonable amount of exposure. He's got money on the line, he's rich. Is he like? I don't think he's gonna like join Cameo if these movies don't do well, but like, he's got money on the line. He's got a lot of money on the line. He's rich is he like I don't think he's gonna like join cameo if these movies don't do Well, but like he's got money on the line. He's got a lot of money on the line

He's not totally wiped out, but this isn't a fucking parking ticket for him We're talking about Kevin Costner. He's an actor writer director producer Ben Ben Hossley our producer Kevin Costner is an American movie. He's an American multi-hyphenate movie star. Yeah He is what do they call it again the lonesome crowded West? That's a mountainous mass. I see in the modern West Yeah, but I just I look at The first line of his Wikipedia is Kevin Michael Costner is an American actor producer and director correct No, usually when they list what someone's nationality is you're just like that's just getting information out, but you're like no He's definitively an American actor producer and director

Kevin Costner we are covering his career. Yes, because he has a new film out this year. That is a classic, you know crazy wild blank check swing, but he has been some we've always discussed because Whenever Kevin went behind the camera Yeah, there were three options huge hit giant flop or Subtle low-key masterpiece that actually did pretty well Open range is that it sort of defies that thing It's like right huge hit huge flop Strange yeah on base double that over 20 years has

aged into being like a secret masterpiece. Yeah. But it is what the variance of those three movies and their reputations and the responses they got at the time. And I also say to some degree, the films themselves is just kind of like

a perfect three, which always felt a little short to do. Yes, right. Just doing three Costner movies, maybe Patreon. Joey's felt a little weak, but now there's Horizon and American Saga on the horizon. Perfectly timed to this series. Yes. The day that I fucking beautiful minded our spreadsheet. He's so proud of this.

So because I was like, we should do Costner. He's got these movies coming out. And you were like, I don't like how it looks. Well then you're slotted into other guys. Let me just say this Dave don't eat. I don't know what he's about to say. David's pitch was David's pitch was we go right from McTiernan no, I'm sorry from right from Satoshi Cohn into costner and that would have meant we cover three cost or movies, right? And then we and then three weeks later. We do one horizon It's not like I was like I'm putting my career on the line for this idea

I was more like we should do Costner was like this is a Shit, I've ever seen put breast in between I've beautiful minded it and then it was like oh we could start the series Right, I'm beautiful minded it. That's about a mentally ill man. He's not doing well. It's not good. Paul Bettany isn't real. Underline the difference here. Nothing you said makes me change the way I just described what happened.

Mentally ill man who is not doing well prides himself on figuring out one good calculation. This is a mini-series on the films of Kevin Costner. We are doing a mini-series on the films of Kevin Costner, the five films he's directed plus Waterworld on Matrium, which he didn't direct but he kind of directed. What's it called? You know, I wish we could have figured out a way to put Robin Hood in there, but the timing got- Robin Hood isn't- It's not the same. That interesting.

Like, Robin Hood is like an okay movie. Like Waterworld, it's everything we're talking about with Kevin Costner. His 90s are very similar to Ben Affleck's 2010s, where it's like, oh my God, you've just proven yourself as a serious filmmaker, so you're going to keep making serious films, right? Right. And he is like, vacillating between like, what do I wanna say versus do I just wanna be a movie star? But even when I'm a movie star,

how much control can I possibly cede? And I think Affleck was a guy who, in that period, was like, maybe I just wanna be like Batman for hire. Or, yeah, well. And not being in control. I'm now just convinced he's he can't experience joy because whenever Ben Affleck achieves more success it just kind of feels like he's like great how do I get the wheels off of this car

while it's in motion which is what I would argue interesting about him yeah totally well but that's not the man we're discussing now I feel like he has come to terms with that like he's, I'm not looking for the magic solve when he does interviews. I don't believe him. I don't believe him. He tricked me with his good interviews. And now I'm just like, no, wait a second.

You're just doing what you did last time again. Possibly. And you're just, you're gonna be fucking Professor X all of a sudden and I won't have even seen it coming. Like you're gonna do it again. Kostor on the flip side is a guy who almost seems to feel like he's never failed like in his own perception they just released at the time of recording this his like timeline of my career video and in the wind-up

for Horizon came out. He's doing press all of a sudden. I watched it last night. He's got a movie coming out. Great fucking point because as we'll cover in later episodes he says I don't talk to the press unless I got a picture to sell and then he he opens the bottle Yeah, and he's so self mythologizing in a way where you're just like who fucking talks like this like it's kind of beautiful That everything he says is presented in like sort of mythic terms But in that timeline of my career video they talked about Wyatt Earp, which is one of his biggest flops. Certainly, and a man who's made a lot of flops. Yeah, and he frames it as, you know,

it was a shame, the sort of space race we got into with Tombstone, and Tombstone's a fun picture, but it was just sort of not fair for us to be compared that way. And the way he keeps talking about it, he keeps framing it as if he made the better movie. That everyone agrees won.

And it was unfair to Tombstone to be compared to Wyatt Earp. And it's like, my man, no one liked Wyatt Earp at the time and people haven't come around to it. Yeah, exactly. It just still sucks. This guy who is like so earnest in everything he does, but also like so focused, so bullheaded. And sometimes he is wildly right.

And sometimes he's wildly wrong. When he connects, he truly connects with audiences and he matters a lot, you know, in the history of movies, sort of Hollywood movies or whatever. And then every time people are kind of like, OK, wow, it's enough with Costner. He does something like Yellowstone or whatever, where he's he's truly back, at least with a portion of people, you know, white people, as I'm referring to there. No, no, just, you know, like, you know, like it's like his

particular kind of star gravitas is somewhat unique. And does resonate. And we've written it off many times. And it might be time to write him off again. We'll see. Like, it might be time. This might be us writing him off again. But he is, you know, he is someone I think about more than I think I thought I would when I was younger.

Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. Yeah, I do think he is someone who just kind of needs to be reckoned with many times in many ways. It's hot in here. A little bit. The cast is overwhelming me already. 1990 he makes a film called Dances with Wolves.

What's the film called? A podcast with wolves? Oh, a with Wolves. What's the, we're called Dances with Podcasts with Wolves? Podcasts with Wolves is the name of this mini-series. Ben, of course, he's made it clear this isn't fully a new phase. No. He's just wearing a neckerchief. Little bandana. It felt right.

A bandana. A bandana. Well, okay. Well, okay. I love that. Okay. But just a little jaunty handkerchief that I've tied around my neck. Ben?

Yes? What was your relationship to Costner growing up? Because I would argue from a certain vantage point, there is a solid corner of the Costner canon that is like black label porch movie. High thread count porch movie. Like you're saying like elevated. Yeah, like what he was best at is something like Field of Dreams where you're like that movie is like high populist art.

Yeah, yeah. Right, that movie plays on a porch. It plays at the American Cinematic. You know, like that movie just, it has that sort of, as you said, David, when he hit, it was like he really tapped into like something primal in the culture that has like stuck. Yeah, but also, and right, and this sort of thing where you're like, I thought that was old news. And he's like, it's new news again. And you're like, I also and right. And this sort of thing where like, I thought that was old news. And he's like, it's new news again. And you're like, I guess it is.

I mean, OK, dance of the wolves. The Western is back and whatever. Like Yellowstone. Feel the Dreams definitely watched on a porch. Yeah. Robin Hood. Yeah. Watched on a porch. Sure. Here's the thing, though. Not a memorable movie. Robin Hood. No, I mean, Alan Rickman is sort of the memorable.

But it did give us Robin Hood Men in Tights, which for me is a huge movie. I feel like for people who are like six or seven years older than us, Robin Hood is like humongous. Even if they don't love it. It was just a huge movie. It had the huge song it had. It was such a fucking cultural moment. What's the song?

Everything I do, I do for you. Are you fucking kidding me? It's the love theme from Robin Hood. Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the Kevin Reynolds film. It's so funny how their songs like that are just so like part of culture. And then you find out it was made for a like a fucking Robin Hood movie. But that's the thing with Costner! Who let the dogs out is from Rugrats in Paris, the movie.

We all know that. We all know that. But here's one thing we don't know. Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Who? That's why I went to the theater. I said, I'm praying for answers and they gave me none. I guess this is a good time to announce I'm launching a true crime podcast trying to get to the bottom of who

Whom let the dogs out? This is a podcast about America. You know, all those podcasts are always like this is a podcast about justice. You know what? Serial is kind of like Kevin Costner and I keep thinking it's done. They did their first season six years this fucking top of the charts again I don't know a single person's listen to one episode. What's it about? What's it about? It's about is it about Guantanamo Bay? Yes, it is. Yeah, Guantanamo I was really worried about being wrong there. Yeah

Caning is back What's her pant caning Sarah? Okay, that being wrong there. Yeah. Caning is back. What's her name? Caning, Sarah? Sarah, that's her name? Yeah. This is a podcast about dogs. Who let them out?

Who? Who? Who? I remember- I think that's sustainable for, I don't know, 12 to 24 episodes. Someone playing it when I was in like the fifth grade at my school. Playing Let the Dogs Out.

Yeah, and everyone going, who in unison? And when my mom was there, it must have been like some fair at school or something. I don't know, like, and she's just witnessing, and just like, what the hell is going on? It was a great moment. We were all loving it. Who let the dogs out? What are about I'm doing right now? Great question David someone rings the doorbell and your response is to stay at your desk and say hello I know it's been a while since anyone knocked on our door

But why don't we walk up and open the door and see who's there Creek? Hello, who's this? It's me, David Byrne. Oh, famed musician David Byrne, thank you for joining us on Bike Check. My pleasure. I woke up this morning and I was very disoriented. Okay. I opened my closet and I said,

this is not my beautiful shirt. Here's the thing. These are not my beautiful slacks. And I'm just talking. What are these clothes and how did they get here? Sometimes we're handed ad copy that has a sort of interesting little prompt. Oh, I'm sorry. Am I interrupting an ad? That our audience doesn't see. Sure. And then our performers on the show sometimes will run with that prompt in the ways you just don't expect. Well, David, anyway, coming from another David, it almost sounds like what you're saying

is kind of an interesting way for your co-host to keep stuff fresh. I think what happened, David, is that you- Maybe that's less for the audience and more for you. I think what happened is that you went shopping at Quince. No, what happened is I didn't go shopping at Quince. I opened my closet and I don't recognize any of these things because I shopped poorly.

Oh, okay, so you're looking at your clothes and you're like what I get this And I'm wondering if you're the gallant who did it correctly. I recommend you shop with quints. Okay. Well, what a great solution We finally got there and more hits because quit has I had several psycho Good one. Kesskissing. Well, that's okay. Quinn's has all the seasonal must haves, like 100% European linen shirts from $30, performance polos, versatile active wear. All items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And because they partnered with Top Factories,

Quinn's cuts out the cost of the middleman passing the savings on to me and you David. Oh and everyone else. Yeah what about me? Yeah you too Griffin and Quince only works with factories that use safe ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, you too Ben, along with premium fabrics and finishes. That's pretty cool. David I have a question for you. Okay. Are you just reading ad copies or do you actually have personal experience with this product? I have personal experience. I got myself some polo shirts baby and they are great. So you're telling me I'm a black polo guy?

So I I have a lot of black polos in my in my life. So I know a good one when it shows up and these merino polos that they sent me are very nice. So you're telling me that these anecdotes are very comfortable. True stories. Good movie. Look, David, you can fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with. Quince, go to quince.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q u i n c e dot com slash check to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince dot com slash check. get free shipping and 365 day returns queens dot com slash check this is my beautiful polo. So Kevin Costner we're going to talk about him we're going to talk about his films he's directed dances of the wolves the postman open range horizon and American Saga part one we will do water world on Patreon we will not be talking about some of the best films he was ever in. Bull Durham, The Untouchables. You know, what else? The Bodyguard, not a great film, but a big hit. JFK. I mean, no way out. Incredible movie. We're going to crack open the dossier. Tim Cupp, Dylan David Sims. But yes, it's like between Dances with Wolves, obviously Field of Dreams, and The Postman,

he has his last batch of home runs with the start of the decline. But leading up to Dances with Wolves, he just has a pretty absurd run. We will talk about that, but first we should talk about his history as a man walking on this earth. And his name is Kevin Costner.

And he's born January 18th, 1955 in Linwood, California. And his dad was an electrician who became an executive at Pacific Bell. It's a telephone company. Now his family's Irish and German descent. Supposedly they were always moving around California. Went to four high schools. That's crazy.

There's only four years of high school. Yeah. So, went to four high schools in four years. You often hear a lot of actors or comedians, that is their background. Where they're like, there's something about needing to learn how to ingratiate yourself in a new environment over and over and over again.

Have you noticed this? Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, yeah. There was a storyline where it's like with a lot of performers where they're like, my family, my dad, I was an army brat, we kept on moving every year I had to make new friends. So Kevin Costner, what does he say he was interested in? According to a time profile in 1999,

family, sports, conflict, movies. Great heroism, great love stories sent chills down my spine. I was particularly intrigued by dilemmas. What? I was intrigued by making out and like, you know, hanging out with my friends. Not dilemmas. This is the fucking thing with Costner. Yeah, a dilemma is wanting to kiss a woman and not doing it. Once you do it, it's action. Action is fine. I understand what it's about, but you have to understand where it comes from.

This guy just talks like this. We should acknowledge that this guy just talks like this. Yes, I, of course, worked on the movie draft date with him. He does just fucking talk like this all the time. And it is incredibly sincere. Like I was reading Zach Barron's profile of him in GQ. I want to pull out this line. I'm just like seething with jealousy about it.

Yes. And then I'm like, right, but he just him in GQ. I want to pull out this line. And just like seating with jealousy about it. Yes. And then I'm like, right, but he just talks in this highfalutin ridiculous way the entire time. He's just loading you up with these quotes. What do you want to highlight? The London bred Sienna Miller, one of the stars of Horizon, told me that when she got cast on the part,

Costner told her, I will show you an America you have only dreamed of. When I asked her if Costner always spoke that way, she responded, yes, that is how he talks. Have you not spent time with him? I'm like, Sandy Miller it's like, sure she's English but she's been to America. Yeah. But maybe she hasn't seen the horizon. But also when I read, I will show you in America you have only dreamed of and imagine Costner whispering that to me, I get goosebumps. He's good at that kind of stuff. Now, he likes sports.

Obviously, Costner makes a lot of sports movies over his career, which we're not gonna talk about. Nope, but you know what? I put it down on a fucking brainstorm list. Costner Sports Movies has huge future Patreon series potential. Is there another well for... Draft Day, I think there's another culture after that.

And then we don't do for love of the game. We don't need to do that again. No, but then maybe we do a special episode where we play baseball. OK, just the three of us. I don't think so. Do you think that would be engaging audio? That's the Farland USA, a sportsman. Yeah, which is good, by the way.

You like that movie, Nikki. Anyway, you saying we play baseball gives me the exact opposite physiological response to imagining Costner saying I will show you in America. My shoulders like locked up. Sports, besides the obvious competitive aspect, is about sharing and being fair. I've always liked to roll in the dirt. That's what Costner says. When he was young, he was like primarily a sports minded kid,

athlete. But David, he was very short. He was 5'2 as a sophomore. I'm 6'1 now, but I still relate to those feelings. I didn't date in high school and didn't get my growth until college. I never got over being short, he says. I do think that's a little bit of a key for him.

So he really wanted to play sports and tried and I think played baseball in college, but was not really an athlete. But he was always performance oriented, he said. He did sing in an all-boys choir. That's when I realized I could manipulate audiences. Yeah, Jesus Christ. And didn't really consider acting until college at Cal State Fullerton. Bored in one of his accounting classes, he read his college newspaper and saw

a casting call notice for Rumpelstiltskin. And he asked his friends, like, does Robert Carlyle go to this school? And they said no. He's like, great, then I have a shot. Squeezed like 10 seasons out of it. Didn't get the role. What if next cost ren announces like, I'm making my Ruppelstiltskin movie. I'll show them.

But he was sort of saying, like, I psychologically still thought of myself as a Ruppelstiltskin, even though I'd had the growth spurt at that point. He probably didn't make a ton of sense for Ruppelstiltskin. I was now handsome enough to play the prince, but I didn't have the tools.

It's such a good Koster line. Yes. So so suddenly he's bitten by the acting bug. Starts going to the South Coast Actors Co-op. But being bitten by the bug is him being like, fuck, I've just been told I'm not. I don't know how to do this. I walked in here assumed I could charm my way through and just have the right look.

And they were like, you have no craft. Now I want to prove myself. Yes, he marries his girlfriend, Cindy Silva, in college, flying back from his honeymoon from her in Mexico. He finds Richard Burton in first class, the famous drunk actor. Sitting alone because he had bought out all the other seats so no one could bother him. Yes, he asks him for advice, then impatiently waits as Burton was like,

can I finish my book first? I just want to paint this picture Richard Burton alone in first class, right? Probably giving a fuck-off vibe right? Costner asked probably why is no one else in first class? He bought all the seats because he hasn't won anyone talking him. Costner sits there. He's like I should talk to him Goes up to him is like, can you tell me how to be an actor? Richard Burton is like let me finish my book Costner just sits there for like however fucking many minutes while Richard Burton finishes his book And it's like he passes the test and Richard Burton looks up and is like he has everything He's not let me tell you exactly what richard

He says that there's a lot of the conversation that he has still never shared Yeah, that's all costar is a big fucking lock box Like there was a thing that was said that i'll never repeat what he says is that he has still never shared. Yeah, that's all. Costner's a big fucking lock box, like there was a thing that was said that I'll never repeat. What he says is that he did ask Richard Burton, I did want you to know, does the drama of your life, you've been a brawler, you've had marriages and a lot of things, does that drama follow you

as an actor? I wanna have a life that's not filled with drama. And Burton looked at me and he said, you have green eyes, I have green eyes, I think you'll be fine. Good, good shit. Again, this is all Costner, the myth maker talking. So I have no idea. Richard Burton was probably like,

can I drink you? And tried to pick him up and put Costner in his mouth. It was like, also if you're Richard Burton and young Kevin Costner comes up to you on a plane, do you not go like, this guy's got some movie star energy. Probably. I mean, isn't some squirrely nerd coming up To me like I'm gonna be an actor. He's a Griffin Newman. Go back to your seat Yeah, he looks like a good-looking guy. I mean, he looks like young Kevin Costner. He's all right. Pretty fucking good

Costner starts working as a stage manager. Let's also mention the fucking end of the Richard Burton story What that he says good luck from a limousine window? I'm moving on. This is a long dossier. I like that. It's all bait up. You made all that up. I've never known that ever happened. I'm calling you up. Costner, you want to disprove me? This is the attitude you're starting a Costner series with? Yes. Yes. What's this? What am I pointing to, Griffin? The chair?

Yeah. You want to disprove it? You're doing a Clint with fucking imaginary Costner in that chair? No, I'm saying join us. Join us. Rebut me. Oh, boy. Come sit in Join us, join us. Rebutt me. Oh boy. Come sit in the chair, Costner. Wow. Chair's open for you, buddy. I don't think Richard Burton said two words to you.

Costner, do you like a fire walk with me? Maybe he does. Lord Palmer is a tragic sadness. It's about America. The sadness of America. He likes coffee. Costner? America. He likes coffee, maybe? Kosser? Probably.

He didn't list it as one of his favorite things. Did he drink coffee? You were getting him coffee in draft day? This is shh. Before you spilled it! Deleted scene. Does he, yeah, do you drink coffee? You know why they cut the scene out of the movie?

Why? Because I was supposed to keep the coffee upright. Right, right, right, that was the issue there. I fucked it up so badly they had to cut it that concert in the morning. You're drinking mud you know All right, okay cost here makes coffee in this movie coffee is a thing in this movie. Yeah Yeah, that's a real like on the Plains thing right yeah, yeah Okay, he starts working as stagewriter. He does a little too little film with

Appearances sizzle Beach USA and chasing dreams. I think those are both Rolled in a program to learn film budgeting so he could start getting on set jobs He just wanted to be close to productions and then that leads to him sort of similar to like the the you know Bill Paxton ended up ending up on front of camera on Corman movies through starting out in the art department or whatever. It's a similar sort of arc. And he does these sort of. Yeah, does a few undistinguished low budget. Well, that's him getting tiny roles in better movies.

Francis, which he gets his stat card for. He stars in a film called Stacey's Nights, directed by Jim Wilson. I assume you have not seen Stacey's Nights. No, but it is written by. It is written by Michael Blake. It ends up being one of the most impactful movies of his career, even though this movie.

It's like a gambling movie. It's like about a blackjack. Yeah, it's like a casino comedy, I think. In 1983, he's supposed to get his big break and is cut out of the big chill, only his forehead and his hairline are in the film famously. He plays the dead guy, but there's supposed to be a big scene at the end of the movie where you see him. And then Cassidy and Larry Cassidy, who made the movie, was like, it disrupts the energy

of the film. like it's no good Whole movie is about him. We've never seen this scene. It is like a generational cast It's it's still not in the criteria never Wow But the kind of thing that breaks a lot of people right like here was my big break and I was cut out of it And they never get over it. He shows in this timeline my career video He was like my friends were telling me the second I got that part I should start doing press because the movie's gonna blow me up and it's like let's see what this thing is like he was very sort of big picture about

everything he was always managing his career in like a very big picture way but the other part of it was everyone was like oh god this must be such a brutal blow to get cut out of it and he's like I got to fucking be on that set with all those people like Like that was the win. I was on a top tier movie. I worked with Kasdan. I held my own with him. Even if he cut me out,

I'd like that was the game, which did end up. Well, so a bunch of things happen. One, he makes a little film about selling tickets to customers called Fandango, directed by Kevin Reynolds. No, it's actually sort of like a comedy road trip movie. I've never seen Fandango.

It's like a brown paper bag comedy with like googly eyes glued on the top of the brown paper. Still making the Fandango. Remember those guys? Remember those guys. Bring them back. Bring them back, because Fandango is better than ever.

Look at load Fandango and it's like 18 pop-ups. He makes this dudes being dudes road trip comedy. That's pretty good. I've seen it. Have you load Fandango and it's like 18 pop ups. Like he makes this dudes being dudes road trip comedy. That's like pretty good. I've seen it. Have you seen Fandango? No, I've never seen it. That's what I'm saying. It's Kevin Reynolds who obviously would direct him in other movies.

So it's like this very character driven thing. But when Costner blows up and he doesn't want to direct a movie himself, Reynolds is the guy he hires. So Reynolds does Robin Hood, Waterworld, and the Hatfields and McCoys miniseries. And every time they work together, it ends with them hating each other, and shit talking each other in the press,

and being like, I'm never gonna fucking work with that guy again, and then they'll come back together. The weirdest thing is that the- But it all starts in this movie that is like, as far off from the movies I just described as you could imagine best movie camera Reynolds ever made didn't have Kevin Costner in it Which is Calamani Cristo that movie is awesome. Oh, yeah, like but he's not he's a totally okay Like kind of straight down the middle action sort of adventure maker filmmaker Anyway, after you guys cut out the big chill Larry Casdon feels bad bad, puts him in Silverado. Now, Silverado isn't like a huge hit.

Two relationships, like Reynolds and fucking Kasdan, he's going to be working with for decades. Silverado, not a huge hit, but he's good in it and like he's cute and fun in it. Like it's like he's a face, right? Well, he's as he describes it, he's like the wild young guy full of juice, right? And Kastner tells the story once again, self-mythologizing, but that when he's at the beginning of wanting to pursue acting, he goes to see a Western movie with his father. I don't know what it was.

And his father turns to him and says like, you could do this kind of thing. And Costner's like, I belong here. I should be making Westerns even when they're out of Vogue, right? In his mind, he's working towards being the Gary Cooper in the movie So when Kasdan offers him the like you're the wild color guy in Silverado He doesn't want to do it because he's like I want to like stare off into the middle I want to be the guy a few words and then the cast uncorks him and it fucking fine, right? words and then that has uncorks him and it fucking fine right it is and Scott it's a kind of fun movie but that that starts to make him that's the first

thing that sort of gets him on the but and then he's in this John Badham movie American Fliers but the most important thing is that in 87 he makes the Untouchables with Brian De Palma he makes no way out which is a horny as fuck fun neo-noir you've seen horny no no way out have which is a horny as fuck fun neo noir. You seen horny? No, no way out. Have you seen horny out? Great movie. That's the Hackman one.

No, Roger Donaldson. Oh, well, Hackman's yeah. Roger Donaldson, Sean Young. They fucking a cab. Two hits in 88. He does Bull Durham baseball movie, you know, romantic comedy, brilliant film. That's great. But a big monologue is the first of the like, hold the center movies and then Bull Durham is just like kind of the perfect Costner movie star text, right? Of course. So good.

And it's like, it's like, yeah, the thing where it's like he's a little washed up and he's still got all of it. And he's like, you know, he's just like pure, like alpha sex appeal, but like without giving a shit. Then he does feel the dreams in 1989, another baseball movie, which everyone says, don't do fucking two baseball movies in a row, this corny thing. Like, you know, what is this like? And obviously, that's a sort of hit at the time. I think it's not the best picture, but it's then just like a generational movie.

Yeah. But I think that starts to solidify. You cannot tell Kevin Costner what to do, right? Like there's so many reasons for him not to do field of dreams. Least of them just, you can't do two baseball movies in a row. This is too similar. And he's like, you don't pass on two scripts like this And now it's like Costner seeing the fucking matrix, right? He's like, here's my career. It's mapped out I'm going here. I'm going here and if people say no to him or doubt him

He just fucking drives through them. He also makes Tony Scott movie called revenge, which is a flop Which I've never seen one of the Tony Scott's I've never seen. Yeah, some people are this pick up for it We can we can talk about that never now which is a flop, which I've never seen. One of the Tony scots I've never seen. Yeah, some people really spoke up for it. We can talk about that, never. Now, Michael Blake, as you mentioned, and the producer Jim Wilson of that film, Stacey's Nights, you know, they get to know Kevin Costner when they're making that movie.

And then of course, after that, Kevin Costner goes off and becomes a superstar, whereas those two guys struggle to get anything produced. Now, Michael Blake goes and reads D. Brown's very famous novel book, Very My Heart, a Wounded Knee, which is like a big history of Native Americans in the West.

And he sort of starts getting into it. And he gets inspired by this one story in the book about a teamster who went out to resupply a tiny fort during the Civil War that was like way out on the frontier and there was nobody there and He's like, hmm That's an idea, right? That's what he's like. Do you think he's like? Hmm. That's an idea Yeah, I think it's a really good impression David. Don't know what Michael Blake sounds like I'll admit you know, this is all gonna sound very patronizing if I read these Michael Blake quotes, but yeah, you know, he loves how Indians

take great pride in the fact that they were partners with nature and their sense of community. He sounds like he's writing in a fucking journal and his name is John Dunbar. Yeah. You know, I love the animals with whom we share the planet. I love open space. I love the West as it once was teaming with Buffalo and wolves. It's like all this fucking fairy minded, rose tinted, sort of like, ah, yeah, things were simpler then. And the people who were here first, they understood the land and we don't, you know, all this shit. And he talks about it with Koster and Koster's like,

don't you dare write another movie, I guess guess because Blake's written a bunch of screenplays that have gone nowhere and he's like, write a book. You have a much better chance of reaching someone with a book. Now Griffin, I'm shaking my finger at you. I'm doing that because Michael Blake said, he shook his finger at him. Well.

Costner was shaking his finger. And so he took the advice of Costner's big American finger and went off and wrote Dances with Wolves as a book. Guess what? Nobody wanted to publish it. No interest. Watched Kevin Costner. Because I do feel like just to be clear, like people are like the Western was dead. The Western wasn't dead dead.

It was definitely not obviously the cultural phenomenon it was in the 50s. But the Western in the 80s, yes, it is more either comic or it's like Clint Eastwood doing Pale Rider Where it's this kind of stripped down very dark thing Where it's like let's try to confront some of the realities of this the romance of the Western is definitely a little dead And let's say Costner is first and foremost a romantic everything that Costner does is tinged with like some Romance at the same time. you've got fucking Reagan in office, who's got this whole sort of stirring like... It's morning in America.

Yeah, and like America, and what's about fields and shit. America's an idea! And I ride around on a horse, whenever Reagan gets shot or does something that makes him look old, he's like, I'm just gonna get on a horse and ride around, and people will be like, yeah, the Gipper's on a horse. America's stronger than ever.

Like it's a time of this kind of fucking nonsense feeling. Yes. Not to speak ill of America, of course, our greatest great country has never done anything wrong. But as I'm shopping, this is my country. Finally, a tiny publisher wants to do it. Gives him $6,500 to basically do a little paperback pressing of it.

And Kevin Costner, ring, ring, I'm going to option your book. I'm going to write a screenplay. Do you think he's angry when he's like, you fucking told me to write a fucking book. And the second I finally get this book published, you're like, should have been a screenplay. Adapt it for me. Right. He has Michael Blake adapt it.

Costner says he found it very charming. He liked lines like, I want to see the West before it's gone. Or I decided to assign myself clean up duty. He liked the simplicity of it. He liked the Dunbar character. What attracts me to film are little things, not the big ones. So things like that he wants to kill the wolf and then they become friends.

Simplicity is stifling. Cosner's a softy. Humor, poignancy. Cosner does feel like the book is entertaining, right? He's not like I'm trying to make like a lecture about like Native Americans and how we mistreated them or anything like that. But the quote here is,

I said it's about how the West was lost, but I'm not trying to set the record straight. It's about behavior, about ill people, ill equipped to deal with what was coming about the bigoted mentality of soldiers in the West. We had a lot of films portraying the Indians as the enemy, a few showing they were cheated. This film explores how they were felt being cheated. It's a very intimate approach to a big subject.

Now he knows this is a tough sell. Of course, right. We haven't mentioned Heaven's Gate, which came out in 1980 and basically bankrupted a studio. Did kind of make the big western... The western epic. Dead. Like dead on the ground. Too scary.

So no one wants to touch this. Beyond that cost, I want to make a film. There's no battle in it, really? It's not like a film with a shootout, exactly. Obviously, there's action sequences, sort of. But it's not like a film where it's like, and then we build to this epic climax, where there's a big battle or anything like that.

No, it's like, it's gonna be, a lot of it in the non-English language, it's gonna have a lot of animals in it. It's, it's, it's- As Costner's line was, and this was when he was promoting the film. Right. He says this, it's a to have a lot of animals in it. It's it's it's. Costner's line was, and this was when he was promoting the film. Right. He says this.

It's a dumb first movie. Right. Full of kids, animals, first time actor speaking in a foreign language, a period piece on top of that. On paper, it's an insane thing for him to do. It's the same thing for him to do, especially given that he's a star and he's putting a lot of himself on the line for it.

And at first he's like, well, I'll find a director to do this. Right. And every directory hires, he's sort of withheld the names of the people who came close to doing it out of respect. But he says there were three or four directors who he went pretty far along with developing it with them. And every one of them, they'd get to a point where they go and by the way, we cut the scene or we don't need to show him doing this three times,

or whatever it is. And Costner would go like, I'm sorry, this is, I disagree, fired, right? And eventually he goes like, I need to direct this not because I think I'm the best person directed, but because I think I'm the only person who can maintain what I think this thing needs to be.

But in everyone's mind, if he were just starring in this and hiring a director director do it, I think Hollywood would already have been like, this guy's really like over caching his status right now. He's got, he's on a good run as a movie star, but he's not invincible. This movie came out in 1990.

I would say he was not really a movie star until 1987. He's only been a movie star for a couple of years and he's like, I wanna direct a movie. This is like- It's folly. This is like if Chris Pratt, after Jurassic World, was like, I'm gonna direct Dances with Wolves, and you were like, dude, you just got fucking validated.

Yeah, no, 100%. So- You just got to the A-list. So then the moment he decides he's directing it as well, people immediately call it Kevin's Gate. They're like, this is his folly. So then the moment he decides he's directing it as well, people immediately call it Kevin's Gate. They're like, this is his folly. This guy's arrogance. He's going too fast, too far. And the movie goes over budget. It goes over schedule. Yes. So right. He funds it by selling the foreign rights. He gets Orion, which is sort

of on its last legs to jump on two weeks before production. They do guarantee him final cut. Wild that, as you're saying, Orion on its final legs. And yet this is only their second to last best picture winner. Obviously, they have Sons of the Lambs the next year. They filed for bankruptcy at the end of 1991, but not because of Tansys Wolves. Damn it. I think it was Clifford was the last movie. Well, that's the one that got delayed by three years.

Right. Yes. He does say, right, there were a bunch of directors that he worked with who were very well known. One said, get rid of the Civil War, start out in the middle of nowhere. Another said, cut the Stance of the Fist character. It's a cliche. That one I might take a note.

First note is dead wrong. I actually think the opening of this movie is the best part of this film. The opening of this movie is awesome. Well, it's interesting. Anyway, he insists on casting Native American actors and having them speak Lakota by and large. Now, I think there are a lot of sort of, you know, correct nitpicks about like the language is not quite right here. Lakota has this like gendered thing where it's like there's two different languages. a lot of sort of, you know, correct nitpicks about like, the language is not quite right here. Lakota has this like gendered thing where it's like,

there's two genders, two, you know, two forms. There's masculine and feminine versions of words. And Russell Means said that like, he saw it with a bunch of Lakota. And they were laughing cause it was like, they're using the female form here instead of the male form, things like that. Russell Means who then later ends up in

fucking Last of the Mohicans. Yeah. Watching this movie again, I did have a lot of like, oh, this is making me view some other movies we've covered in the past of this podcast differently. You cannot help but feel like Last of the Mohicans is Michael Mann being like, I'm gonna get so much more fucking accurate with this shit.

Right. Because of complaints like that. But I suppose it's worth acknowledging, right, that this was still, it was unusual to see a movie like this in 1990, certainly with, um, the language being used and like a vast amount of Native American actors. I mean, you know, which being used and like a vast amount of Native American actors. I mean, you know, almost everyone in the cast obviously because it's largely just Costner out in the wilderness with them.

And like this second lead in this movie, Mary MacDonald, yes, is basically new to movies has been doing theater for like 20 years. Yeah. She did not have made a one, not a one. Yeah.

That's the only one like major film. And that was not a right. Yeah, she's made a one, not a one. Yeah, that's the only one like major film. And that was not a right. Yeah, she's I think incredibly good in this film. She's great. I mean, Derek Donald's great actor. At some point, pin for later, want to talk about the best supporting actress category of 1990. Okay, let's talk about Oscar.

Certainly. Okay, so Graham Green obviously gets cast as kicking bird or sort of the you know, the biggest Native American role in the movie. He's a guy who's been in movies and TV, but this is his big breakout. I feel like he's still one of the most famous actors of like, you know, right, of all time, Native American actors of all time.

He rocks. I love him always, basically. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I always think he's good This is an absolute like just kind of stoic Stand and kind of a little humor and stuff to him. I don't you know, he's he's great I think the characters a little yeah sure as every single character in this movie is you know, thinly written. Yeah But Graham Green at the time is like, look, this thing is lighter on cliche, basically.

I'm sure the roles he's being offered, you know, at the time, mostly villainous or incredibly one dimensional. Yeah. You read the quotes of like Native Americans speaking about this film at the time of its release. And even the ones who are the most critical are kind of giving it faint praise awards, where they're like, it's really easy to mock. He does get some stuff better than basically the last 80 years of movies have.

Yes. I guess we give him a little credit for that. Mary MacDonald, he likes that she's kind of unknown. Costner says we saw more famous actors, but I felt like having a face people had seen over and over again would take something away from it. He also goes on about how she's a woman

not a girl. I guess she has like presence, but Costner just loves to hit these talking points over and over again. But you look at the poster for this movie that is basically just a Kevin Costner headshot. Yeah. Well, so I. Against a purple background of Buffalo and it's just Costner dances with wolves.

Like they're like, the only thing we can sell this movie on really is just people are buying Costner stock. What's the tagline? That's one of the worst taglines of all time. Lieutenant John Dunbar is about to find, discover the frontier dot dot dot within himself. Yeah, that's terrible. Now this poster, I don't like the tagline, but I think this poster is kind of amazing, which is just of the Buffalo.

Yeah. And like, which is my favorite scene in the movie. That is the one transcendent sequence in Lafayette. It's why I have long been like, I've seen Dance with Wolvesves a couple times over my life. It's not a big movie for me. It came out before I was, you know, even a kid. And I long thought of it as this footnote movie of like, yeah, be good fellas, fuck that movie.

And then I saw it and I was like, well, it's pretty. You know, that was like, that was always my take on Dance with the Wolves. And when I watched it this time around, I was like, I don't really like this movie very much. But I cannot deny that it is gorgeous to look at and the music is really nice. And basically everyone looks good.

Yeah, there's stuff in it. That's about what I have for it. But that one sequence. But the fucking Buffalo sequence is so cool. The Buffalo sequence is transcendent. And you're just like, if this was the whole movie, I would understand why this movie was as big as it was when it came out. The only other thing I respect about it is what I said, which is like,

it doesn't build to some silly climax, really. He's just kind of like, look, man, they're going to come for you, that's the end of this, and I'm going to get out of here, because, you know, I don't want to go back with them. It's been nice. Like, you know, like that's the ending is at least something to me for how much it is obviously cited as this like prime example of like the white savior, noble, savage, he joins the tribe and becomes the best of all of them kind of movie.

You watch this now and you're like, it is relatively subtle in its plot movements in that like, the stakes of the movie are relatively small. And the movie just ends with like, I guess it's time for us to leave. And then they mentioned like, within 13 years, everything was wiped out. This isn't a movie that has a last stand. Right. It's not the last samurai where it's like Tom Cruise and Ken Watanabe are the two remaining guys on the field at the end fighting together. You know, like it's like, no, they vibe with him because he's all right.

And they're like, he's nice. Well, like that's kind of it. Well, I think we complain about all the time is people complaining about Avatar. Yeah. And people love to make their fucking like dances with fur and gully jokes or whatever, right? And when people were shit-talking avatar when it came out the biggest talking point was just like he just did dances with wolves with aliens But I do think you watch this and you're like What avatar he turns it into the ultimate epic? This is for all the Marvels He truly the tribe has said you are the best that has existed in generations. You are Turok Mato.

Well, he does write for us. It's just in the film. He writes The Mighty Akron. Yeah, I think Mighty Akron, the biggest one, he becomes Turok Mato. Yeah, so I'm just saying like that's in the film and it's like we can't ignore that. Yes. But that's something that happened. No, no, no, of course that happened. And that's history. That's just fact. That's just fact that's something that happened. I did that and that's history That's just fact that's just fact that that's what happened But this is a movie that is more just about him living with them. Yeah, no I mean the thing about avatar which is a movie I enjoy but which is also of course silly nonsense

But we love the silly nonsense because it's about aliens and shit So you're like cool, but avatar Avatar is this battle cry of like, what if we actually fucking turned the planet against the colonizers and annihilated them? Hell yeah. And you're like, hell yeah. Dances with Wolves, right, is this kind of wistful like, yeah, you know, it was beautiful once here,

and I'm the beginning of something terrible that's coming, and it't time for me to move on You see his little butt you do see his little You're getting at my other problem here, which is David's I'm just adding half a star, okay Which is, David's... I'm just adding half a star. Okay. What you just said, the way you just described the movie, is the version of the movie that I totally wanna plug into.

And the problem is, one of my favorite movies of all time does that as well as any movie is gonna hit that for me. What's that? Which is The New World. Great movie. But I feel like that's Malick's take on that story is, right, it's like the beginning of the Paradise Lost thing. Sure, for sure, for sure. It is this guy comes, he's just like,

what the fuck is the world I'm from? This is the better way to live. And then with him, he brings all the sort of like death and destruction. I think that's a more cynical movie, but it's also a more poetic movie. It's more transcendent movie to me. It's more pointed film to me.

I think The New World is a better film than Dances with Wolves. I do agree with you on that front, yes. I... The thing that I just don't... I don't love this movie. I think it's okay at best. And the thing that is more fascinating about it to me

is just that America was like, yes, yes, this fairly low-key film that's three hours long and doesn't really have a huge ending. They couldn't have been more in. Over and over and over again, like huge hits. And it's like months and months and months of the press being like, stinker, Pee-oo, incoming, comes out immediately hits. Right. It wasn't like one of these slow burn things

Where it's like people came around to it even like unforgiven was like that We're really like I'm giving it out like a third of what this means Yes, like this movie was a huge huge hit yes in like a pretty fucking big year. Well, let's see 1990 can we I want to pull this open because now we've covered a good amount of the 1990 box office. The third biggest film of 1990. So there are three movies that are just like absolutely culturally transformative in 1990. I would say four, but go ahead.

Number one is Homolo. Correct. Yes. Number two is Ghost. Number three is Dances with Wolves. Yeah, I would say this is a four. The number four movie at the box office, I assume this is not what you're saying? No, it is not.

Number four is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. No, that's not what I'm saying. That might be worldwide. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is five domestic. Fourth domestic is Pretty Woman, which is another gigantic movie. Oh, you're right, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I fucking Box Office Mojo was doing in-year releases versus calendar grosses.

So it's Home Alone, Ghost, Sansus, Wells, Pretty Woman. I would even argue. Ninja Turtles, yeah I know. No, no, Pretty Woman. And? Weird. Weird that that was a huge movie. Yeah.

Here's the bottom half of the top ten, okay? Number six, Hunt for Red October. Number seven, Total Recall. Number eight, Hunt for Red October. Number seven, Total Recall. Number eight, Die Hard 2. Number nine, Dick Tracy, which is seen as a disappointment. That's the- Yeah, it is, right. But it's still a big hit, right.

Number 10 is Kindergarten Cop. Number 11 is Back to the Future Part III. So we've covered a lot of these films. A lot of them. This is an interesting snapshot year. We might do Columbus one day. We're probably not going to do Zucker. That's a ways away.

Gary Marshall is definitely not happening. Just because he made a ton of movies. Yeah, we have to do Penny first. It's an interesting time. Home Alone is obviously a children's film that performed at such a berserk level. But Ghosts and Dances with Wolves are these odd, like these are sort of like

Movie movies Yeah, yeah big sweeping grown-up ethics. Yeah, it's dance of wolves 13 I don't even I can't even that's a good question. I assume so yeah PG 13. Yeah, it's not like that violent It's got some arrows You know, it's got arrows. Yeah, it's got some arrow wounds some blood some surgery But it's like fairly tame, you know candlelit sex got cost her but it's got custom, but I imagine listeners Will write to us in letters that we immediately throw to the incinerator

Will write to us in letters that we immediately throw to the incinerator People who are older than us are going to try to like explain to us what we're not getting about what was going on in this moment I've just I remember I had an over you get more to this thought I'm trying to crack it But what are you gonna? I just remember like when I was a kid on the Oscar watch forums There were people there who are older who would talk about this. We were like, right. You just didn't understand. Like it was such a change to see this like very stirring old fashioned kind of epic, like it just was like, there just wasn't a lot of stuff on offer like this.

Costner fit the mold so well, like for that kind of old fashioned fifties star mustache, nice big hair, you know, like John Dunbar, you know. And so like, it was appealing for that very reason. It was just like, you don't get a movie like this anymore. You go to the fucking movie theater and see Dances with Wolves. Here's the other thing I wanna call out. Between 1980 and 1995, Kevin Costner, Clint Eastwood, Warren Beatty and Mel Gibson all win best

picture and best director oh I'm sorry and Robert Redford Beatty never won best picture but yeah sure all win best director yes and four out of the five win best picture ready maybe one for Reds we have one best picture one best director I'm sorry and I'm also adding Redford in there so that's the five right Redford and 80 yeah right there's the five right Redford in 80. Yeah, right. There are like five absurdly handsome a list leading men Costars the greenest Sidney Pollock Yeah, I Don't think he fits into the paradigm of what I'm talking about. But guys who were a list leading men

we're like raw fucking magnetism and we're just like I do things my way and Sort of did the big bet on themselves in all cases making the kind of movie They don't make any more in one way or if they don't make any more the kind of movie that was an Unconventional thing to sort of get my mom nobody makes movies like this about therapy Reds. What are you crazy? You're making a three plus hour epic about a socialist like it'll never work. It works What are the other movies are talking about? Dance to the Wolves? Unforgiven Clint westerns are over. You're you can't

Legacy you're deepening the well of what you used to represent. I told you I was guilty. Ah fuck Braveheart is the craziest one of all it's like no you're not Scottish What the fuck are you talking about? But you know again Is a juice to all five of those wins that is almost this like bizarre version of an underdog narrative of Like he proved us all wrong a little bit Yeah, and you're like wait who proved us wrong the guy who was already at the top of the fucking mountain Later yeah, this is what I'm saying.

This is what I'm saying. I think that is an X factor you cannot discount. You know, they kind of do it with Clooney when Clooney is hot as a filmmaker. Absolutely. Which is what I'm, which I mean now, of course, is hottest. Yeah, he put boys in the boat. They said it couldn't be done. He dared put boys in the boat.

He went to every studio and they said, boys must be on be on land and he said let me put some boys in the boat What is? We'll just wheel them in in the boat. They'll be rowing. So that and the studio is like no take those boys out of the boat That is the Oscar narrative, right? That is the X Factor And let's mention several of those times those are the guys beating Scorsese in this period where he's like am I cursed that the Academy hate me? Yeah, why are they giving it to all these guys over me, right? but I think they love the narrative of these fucking guys betting on themselves and just Being like oh you've gone from being a megastar to an uber star or whatever it is now. You're also an auteur

This movie is so much more commercially successful and popular with mainstream audiences than the other four movies I just listed. For sure. All those movies did well. Yeah, well, hits relative to what they were. Braveheart even kind of underperformed a little bit. Braveheart made less money than people think it did.

But then exploded on video. I'm very surprised. That was a huge video movie. It came out in the spring, did alright, and then won the Oscar basically a year later. It made 75 domestic. There's nothing wrong with it, but that was its budget. But that was below Mel Gibson's... he was basically a $100 million guy at that point. And Apollo 13 was supposed to win Best Picture and didn't. I mean, in that it was the

Favorite or whatever that was a slight surprise that double VHS was so ubiquitous and so many living rooms Dan Smith-Wilson must have been a double as well Yeah, yes, but it did. I mean as a kid you just be like, I guess that movie is important It has I very quickly was like that movie is boring important it has I very quickly was like that movies boring Well, I I think I would often not watch them, but I'd be like if I were a grown-up I would want to watch this that looks boring to me But the double VHS implies that there's something I'm not sure enough to understand I I wonder how much of it because there is like a western boon

That goes on for about four or five years after this movie and then kind of abruptly hits a wall. Yeah, because cyberspace comes in. Yes. It's in there. Yeah, we plug in. But in the course, you've got wide up, you've got Tombstone, you've got Unforgiven. What are the other big Westerns of the early 90s?

When do the Young Guns movies come out before this? Oh, those Young Guns. They were so young. They were the youngest of the guns. 88 is the first of the guns. OK, so they're the first young gun. I guess that's more in the Silverado. And those movies are more kind of like, well, there's Quick and the Dead, there's

Maverick, you know, there's the Wild Bill movie. And then there's stuff like Legends of the Fall. Right. These are some of the big flaws. Legends of the Fall and Far and Away, which like not Westerns, but they are Westerns. Like they're big American epics on landscapes, but they're a little right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of cool Westerns. And some bad ones.

In that fucking timeline of my career video, it's like speaks highly of Silverado, but also refers to it as like that's like, you know, it's kind of like a fun Cracker Jack Sunday, MacName movie. refers to it as like that's like you know it's kind of like a fun cracker jack sunday mac name movie no I think it had been a long time since someone had like made a western with this sort of ambition which you just have to wonder how much of it's like right place right time he did this well enough and people were like you know what it has been a while I think we're hungry for this I think he had the juice as a star so people are are interested in that. Undeniable, yeah. They're interested in a Kevin Costner vanity project then.

They may not be now. We'll see. We'll see. Well, the stakes on Horizon are, I think, lower than people realize in a way, because the budget on them individually isn't that high. He spread the cost. Right, we'll see how much people

sustain interest in it, certainly. But what is most bizarre to me is that this is his only acting nomination? Which, I mean, that's not surprising to me because he was a movie star and like Harrison Ford, they would kind of ignore movie stars. Redford, another one, where they'd be like, yeah, you just do your thing. Who cares? He didn't like, you know, turn into something. So we're not interested. How does he not get a fucking JFK nomination? That's the one to me. Especially since that movie was basically the front runner and he's going into that Oscar season.

That's probably his best. I don't know. Beatty beats him out, I guess. I don't know. We talked about that year. Hopkins, Beatty for Bugsy, Nero for Cape Fear, Nolte for The Prince of Tides,

and Williams for The Fisher King. So that is a huge year. It's a pretty good year. It's, Beatty is a fucking zero in Bugsy, so we should have kicked him out, but whatever. This year, him getting an acting nod is a little silly. I don't think he's particularly good in this movie. I think, to repeat the term, he holds the center. Yeah, some of his line readings really just like fucking just fall flat on the ground for me. Especially the voiceover. Especially the voiceover.

In the fucking GQ piece, they talk about how his whole thing is how like Spartan he is in his acting style, right? That Costner is the king of doing like so little and having it feel weighty and Massive and he's good at tossing off dialogue Yeah, he's he's a totally fine line reader And the other thing he's good at is the sort of like the boulder room the the mollys game where it's like begrudgingly You're forcing me to give a monologue, right? And there's this feeling of like I didn't want to share my emotions and now it's sp begrudgingly, you're forcing me to give a monologue, right? And there's this feeling of like,

I didn't wanna share my emotions and now it's spilling out of me. And I'm gonna explain to you exactly how things are. But this voiceover shit plays to like, his worst qualities. I would agree. David. Yes? Ants. Ants? Ants. Ants, ants, ants, ants. Ants, ants, ants, ants. I hate getting corner. Aunts? Aunts. Aunts, aunts, aunts, aunts, aunts.

I hate getting cornered by him. We all do. I knew that was gonna be a relatable conversation starter. Why aren't you getting married? What's going on with that promotion? Why haven't you moved out of Mom and Dad's basement, Griffin? Oh, those were directed at me? I thought they were, oh, now I feel attacked.

Get out of the basement, Griffin! She doesn't listen. She just judges, judges, judges. You know, you're getting together with your family. You might have to be in a barrage with these kinds of questions. Stay in there and grin and bear it. I don't want you feeling that way when you talk to your doctor about like a weird rash

or that you eat pizza and went too many times a week or something else. Unfortunately... You have read for filth by this head copy right now. a weird rash or that you eat pizza and went too many times a week or something else. Unfortunately, we have read for filth by this head copy right now. Unfortunately, the twist to this riddle is that the doctor is my aunt. But other people might have another one. I can't treat this patient. Enter ZocDoc, the place where you can find and book doctors who will make you feel comfortable

and actually listen to you. We're talking about. Tens of thousands of doctors all with verified patient reviews so you can make sure the vibes are vibing before you ever meet IRL. People, they think, well, what are the valuable attributes in a doctor? Sure. Big brain. Steady hand.

Sharp eye. Sure. Quietly. Eye of an eagle. Hand of a hawk! It's about the ear. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The ear and the heart. The doctor who can listen and understand.

Yeah, look, the whole thing with ZocDoc. Yeah. Well, there's lots of good things with ZocDoc. Many good things. It helps you see if a doctor has insurance. It helps you book appointments. Often you can do within 24 or 48 hours. Yeah, you could do a Nolte-, you could do a second Nolte Murray.

But you really can also try to see if a doctor will make you feel comfortable or prioritize your health. You can search by location, you can search by availability, you can search by insurance. There's no compromises here because with ZocDoc you got more options than you know. And they're not gonna judge you. Free eating, well maybe the pizza thing will come up, but the basement living probably won't. DocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare highly rated in-network doctors near you and instantly book appointments with them online. But immediately you don't have

to wait on hold with a receptionist and they've all got verified reviews from real actual patients Thank God cuz you know the unfortunate thing is the receptionist my other aunt Sheesh, yeah when I go to the doctor's office, I get an earful calling from basements Zoc doc, okay. Yeah, I use this and you should too. Mm-hmm Go to Zoc doc comm slash check and download the ZocDoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. That's zocdoc.com slash check.

Zocdoc.com slash check. You can get an appointment like 24 to 72 hours. Or in the middle 48 hours in Ulti Murphy, which I accidentally said is Ulti Murray twice. Let me get back to the dossier. They search around for where to shoot this movie. The novel is set more in like Comanche country. So they're thinking Oklahoma or Texas, but they decide to shoot it in South Dakota. It's why the tribe in this film of the Sioux because South Dakota still

has Buffalo. And they're like, well, that's good. The largest high private herd of buffalo in the world, 3500 Buffalo, is housed near Pierre, South Dakota. So that's where they shot the film. I'd say that was a great call. Great call. And also South Dakota does have lots and lots of Native American tribes that you can work with. You know, it's like that's a that's a state with, you know,

and it's also it's gorgeous. It's all this open space like, you know, it's like, that's a state with, you know, and it's also, it's gorgeous. It's all this open space, like, you know. The shoot was difficult, a logistical nightmare. Uh-huh. When I said 3,500 Buffalo, did that sound like it'd be difficult to deal with? You're right, difficult. You've also got horses.

You have wolves who are difficult to deal with, wolves. Most of them don't wanna dance. Right. You got wagons you got you know giant sort of sets you have to build out there all that stuff work day 16 hours uh it's gonna be fucking 100 degrees in the summer it's gonna be 20 degrees in the winter at night or whatever uh they go 1.5 million over budget costner was paid three million dollars to make the movie. He puts two and a half million back into the production. Classic cost. Obviously, Kevin's gate. They're all talking about it.

Kevin Reynolds is brought in to help. Now, the rumors that he helped save the picture, he says, nonsense, I just sort of helped with the Buffalo Hunt sequence, was just, you know, basically doing second unit. Which is impressive. I don't know how they pull it off. It's so cool. I'll unpack it. Some of the things I found out in a moment, but basically by all accounts,

when Warner Brothers offers Costner Prince of Thieves, he points to Reynolds help on the Buffalo sequence. Right, it's like this guy can help on the Buffalo sequence. Right. As like, yeah. This guy can handle the scale. Right. Yeah. That ends up being Reynolds guarantor along with just being friends with Costner, although

that will constantly be on shaky ground. They bring in Kathy Smith, who's an artist and a scholar who's worked on a lot of Westerns after this movie, to do do lots of historical accuracy stuff. They obviously have someone there translating lines into Doris Leader Charge is the person who translated the screenplay. It says, look, it is a very difficult language to translate. So they had to massage it as best they could to make it like actors able to speak it. I don't think they half asked that stuff at all. Like, I think, no, they they wanted the effort made.

You know what I mean? But then I do think that Dances with Wolves took on maybe a little too much of the metal of like, this is the movie that really took it seriously. And then I think there's a whole generation of like Native Americans who are like, that movie is bullshit, right? You know, because it's sort of presented as like, no, this is like the good one that like isn't like the old Westerns, right? Like where we're not just like one dimensional villains or whatever. And it's like, yeah, but it's so corny and we're not the heroes of it at all, really.

And like, you know, it's still about fucking Kevin Costner and all that. It is the frontier within himself or whatever. It is the thing that is fascinating about horizon being on our horizon. Is you're just like, what is his version of this like today? And certainly like all these movies are going to feel different post Killers of the Flower Moon. Yeah, sure. Which in a certain way feels like Scorsese saying like,

this is maybe the last time we should ever let a white person make a movie like this. Like that's part of the text of that movie in a lot of ways. And it does feel like we're probably on the cusp of like, there will at some point in the next 15 or 20 years, probably be an epic scale Western directed by a native filmmaker and it will feel

Impactful to be like we are finally letting someone tell the story from a different perspective versus what we you know dances with wolves starts like 30 plus years of explicit like kind of revisionist Let's be less racist westerns. Let's be aware of how bad we are. And obviously, look, there are Ford movies and Hawks movies that were like sort of working that into the subtext and what have you. But this is the first of the movies to really be like respect. I don't know. I mean, I'm not enough of a Western expert to know in the 80s.

Like, is there any? But it certainly gets pegged that way. As you said, it becomes just becomes the one standard bearer right yes now there's a four hour special edition Griffin you didn't watch this did you no it was one of the most foolhardy Griffin you know what I think I'm gonna do this and you just were like yeah yeah have fun with that and I by the way is the only version of it where you can get the theatrical cut for Whatever weird reason the extended cut has sort of become yes The fault not happy about no he says I didn't really work on the longer version It just has like a bunch of producing partner. Yeah, right Wilson does it I released the versions I want they're long. I don't need him for the... Yeah, obviously he had fucking directors cut on this. Like, John Barry wins his fifth Academy Award

for doing the music to this. I think the music is 50% of this movie. The music is unbelievably good. It is. And, you know, again, if you're in the theater and all you know is that busting makes you feel good or whatever, whatever 80s slop you've been served up, not that Ghostbusters is bad. And then there's just this stirring score out of an epic from a hundred, where you're

just like, what? It just, I think, I mean, obviously he did the same trick with Out of Africa, which is an even more boring epic that fooled the Academy a few years prior. This same year. But it's great. Columbus and everyone talk about when they were making fucking Home Alone. Yeah. Another stirring epic of the American frontier.

Well, they take the big swing. The Chicago Suburbs. Columbus is friends with Spielberg. Yes. He's like, do you think we could fucking get Williams to do it? And they throw the flyer at him. You wouldn't want to fucking score this kid does pranks on robbers movie.

And he's like, sure, I wrote Christmas as music. Right. Would you like it? It's the most beautiful score you've ever heard. And they hear his score and they're just like, he just made this thing a blockbuster. And with no disrespect to the rest of Home Alone, you do watch that movie and you're like, half of it's gross comes from that score.

That score gives that movie and you're like, half of it's gross comes from that score. That score gives that movie a sense of like... But that score, the Home Alone score by John Williams, is just like the Jurassic Park score by John Williams, where he's giving you this like beautiful soaring American symphony. And in Home Alone, right, it's for about an eight year old who brutalizes criminals. At Jurassic Park, it's about people getting eaten by dinosaurs. He's like, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba! You know, like everyone's so into it. Was not one of my movies growing up. I mean, I saw Home Alone, Azalea Dives. It's certainly a well-crafted film. But you could imagine the version of it where like,

David Newman does the score and it has slide whistles. And you're like, yeah, that's like a comedy that kids like. And the John Williams score makes it feel like a fucking movie. And there's a similar thing going on with the John Williams score makes it feel like a fucking movie. And there's a similar thing going on with the John Berry score in this film. Before we talk about the plot, the film was released in just 14 theaters, expands the next weekend, is a massive hit, makes one hundred and

eighty four million dollars at the domestic box office was never number one, was always just sort of like vibrating around the number two, number three. I think for a while it was the highest grossing never number one movie. Until it was dethroned by

My Big Fat Creek Winning. That still holds the record. Another movie about finding yourself in the American frontier. But if John Berry had scored that, it would have won Best Picture. The film won seven Academy Awards. Picture, Director, Screenplay, Score, Sound, Cinematography, and Editing. Sound Radio for three acting awards, wins none, Art Direction and Costume.

We'll talk about that later. The film Dances with Wolves is about John Dunbar, a Union officer in the Civil War, the American Civil War. You guys were at this one? Civil War, the American Civil War. You guys aware of this one? Not Alex Garland, Civil War. Thank you for clarifying. And he's been injured and he's going to get his leg cut off, as was the fashion of the time. People were losing limbs. I think this opening is pretty incredible.

It's awesome. It's a really interesting way to open the movie, honestly. And it opens like abruptly. Yeah. You're so dropped into it. Yeah. Here's just fucking like a medic tent with all these guys dying and bleeding out. And they're basically just like they just fucking cut the leg. We don't have the time or the resources. So crazy to say they were baby song. It's easier to saw this motherfucker off.

Well, because I mean, to be fair to the Civil War medics, like, they didn't understand much about medicine. They didn't have like, penicillin or any antibiotics or anything like that. They did know if your leg was shot, it would probably get infected, and if it got infected, you could die. So if you cut it off, that would stop it.

They said they were overworked. They were underpaid. They didn't even have civilians banging their pots and pans every day to show them respect Maybe they did you don't know maybe there wasn't a lot to do with those days people just doing that anyway They should cut in this movie to a Walter Brennan style old coot bang in his pots and pans They're gonna cut his leg off he's like fuck that I'll just get on a horse and ride out and die I'd rather die on my own terms, which is very costner.

Christ like arms out. My wife goes, Jesus Christ. And he basically spurs a successful charge on the Confederates by doing this. In 1990, when he does this, America is like, yes, please give me all you got. Costners are fucking Christ, right? In 1997, when he's pulling the same moves in Postman, people are booing. Everyone's responding the way your wife did. It's like, good job, buddy.

I guess his leg heals. It's not really addressed, but. Well, they get a special doctor. No, no, no. That's what happens. The officer. Right. Right. This is what he called. I mean, it's it's what's interesting about the setup where he's just like, I don't want to live a compromised life,

I'd rather kill myself on my own terms. And then he fails, but because of the accidental valor of his actions. Right, they're like, okay, let's actually take a look at your leg. Let's bring you to a specialist. And let's give you a nice horse. Right, he gets promoted. And pick, yeah, pick your assignment.

Where would you like to go? And I would pick, what do you think the easiest assignment is? It's definitely not what he picked. Oh, it's like Maine. I don't know. It's like, what's the furthest from the front, right? You know, all the way North, but somewhere where we've been there for a while. There's like running water. Maybe.

USO show. Were there USO shows in this day? Yeah, he should do a USO show. I would go to Nauhlin. Nauhlin. No, that's in the South. There's a civil war happening back there. I feel like there was some conflict happening

in Louisiana. In the South? A lot. Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, there's battles going on. I'm like away from that. I would sneak off and I'd go have a fricking mint julep. Well, yeah, but like I'm just saying like there's battles. I'm like away from I don't think Burbank Street was like chill in the middle of the Civil War I don't think you could just get a hand grenade and like it wasn't HBO's Treme with like, you know Ah, how am I gonna open my gourmet restaurant?

He goes to Fort Hayes a real place out there in the the west of Kansas more chicken fuck killing it Maury shake an incredible one seen the guy who is insane insane We're initially you're just kind of like oh is this guy just grumpy and then like two lines of dialogues later You're like, oh, he's like this guy's like a lunatic you go from is he just grumpy to how drunk is this guy too? Is this guy fully unraveling in real time? Which he does. Yes. Yes. So he's like, oh, this is going on with you. And Custer's like, I want to see the West before it's gone. He's like, uh huh. How do you feel about shooting yourself in the head?

I'm thinking about doing that ASAP. Like next five minutes. Anyway, go that away. Right. What he does to the salute, that's it's like so unhinged. His line is he says, like, I just peed all over myself and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Yeah, that's the quote I thought you were going to do. Right. And then Koster walks out and he shoots himself in the head, which is just like,

holy shit. He shoots himself by being like, he's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, knock it out of the window. He's like, check this out. Right. It's insane. The idea. This is also part of the setup where it's just like, no, hey, hey, hey, knock it out of the window. He's like, check this out. Right, it's insane. The idea. This is also part of the setup where it's just like. No one knows that he's out there. This is the idea, I guess.

When you're watching it again, you're kind of like crazy way to lead a movie. Insane. Right, he goes out there with the great Robert Pastorelli, who we probably discussed in. Michael. Michael. Had a very tragic end, but was a great character actor.

And then Robert Pastorelli gets shot by invading Pawnee, including a young West Judy. He's playing the Walter Brennan type. He is, sure. He's like, I'm crazy about farts. He does fart, again, right? Like our audience is shifting and there's like,

the Western Why is this guy farting? Have I told this story? I'm already taken the back I shoot himself Have I told this story before I don't know Griffin the story is there There's a scene in the motion picture draft day, which I can only speak to my own experience here But the takeaway I had from working on draft day was I think Costner kind of directs every movie He's in at least if every movie he's in. At least in the scenes he's in. Which isn't to say he's always like the secret director to the extent of say something like

Waterworld, but he is a guy who like kind of can't not think holistically about everything surrounding him, not just his performance. I also think the decisions he makes do not tend to be in the name of his own ego. You're like, he's right. Almost always he's right. He just has good fucking instincts and he'll block things and he'll take away dialogue from himself and give them to another actor. It's like, I'm saying too much. The camera should be here. Whatever it is. But there was a scene where we have like a bonding moment.

Where I try to talk to him, I catch him. One of my scenes where I interrupt him. Your laptop's broken. Not that scene. Oh, that scene's good though. One of many scenes where I interrupt him talking to Jennifer Garner, and he turns to me for the first time,

he tries to engage with me, and he goes like, Rick, women are tricky, or whatever he says. And then I'm trying to match him, and I go like, yeah, women are like, pfft. And I make this hand gesture like. Brain exploding. Brain exploding. Yeah.

And for weeks in the movie, Reitman kept on being like, tone it down, tone it down. Too broad movie, you gotta match Kevin's level, don't be like too over the comedy, whatever, right? And this scene, Reitman's just like, bigger, bigger, Griffin, bigger. And I was like, I've spent three weeks trying to like tone myself down to get your approval.

And now he's just saying bigger, bigger, bigger. And I'm doing bigger and he's still just like, not big enough, big, big. And he's like doing the hand gesture. And Costner's like, you really, you gotta go bigger. And I was like, it feels weird. And he's like, you really gotta go bigger. And I was like, it feels weird. And he's like, you gotta go bigger. And we do it and we finally get a take, whatever.

They finally feel happy enough with it printed. Next day in the trailer, Costner's like, can I like talk to you about the thing yesterday? And I'm like, yeah, sure. And this is like Costner giving me like a Costner monologue moment, right? How old are you? 24? This is crazy. Yeah. yeah, sure. And this is like Costner giving me like a Costner monologue moment, right? Where are you? 24?

This is crazy. Yeah. Continue. Yeah, I mean, this whole situation is crazy. Yeah, yeah. I was very, you might be surprised to hear, I was very overwhelmed on the set of this movie where I'm dealing with extreme personalities. He says, when I was doing Dances with Wolves,

I'm not gonna do the impression on this part. Yeah, when I was doing Dances with Wol'm not gonna do the impression on this part I was doing dance with the famous movie the one best picture I got the actor Robert Pastorelli is in this scene and there's a scene at the campfire, right? Where he's farting and everything right? That's very broad and He was like Robert. I need you to go bigger and Pastorelli's like a fucking like an Italian like this is not the obvious part He plays he played a lot of like street wise city guys, right? He's not the obvious,

like hooting and hollering eating beans on the campfire kind of guy. So I think this was out of his comfort zone. He's incredibly good in this. And constantly keeps on going like, go bigger. And he's like, Kevin, I'm like, huge. I couldn't go bigger. And he's like, go bigger, go bigger. And Costner's got the full picture vantage point of like, Kevin, I'm huge. I couldn't go bigger. And he's like, go bigger, go bigger. And Costner's got the full picture vantage point of like, I'm gonna cut it to a closeup of me stoically over voiceover saying like, here I was with the most poorly behaved man I'd ever seen

or whatever it is. He needs the contrast. And Pastorelli is just like, I can't go bigger. And he's like, give me one where you just go as big as you fucking can. Basically like forces him to do one giant take. And they print it and then they go to dailies and they all watch the dailies.

And the one take that Costner won the argument on, the whole cast and crew explodes and was like, Robert, that was incredible. And Costner goes back to his hotel and then like six hours later, he gets a call from security. and he's like, I think one of your actors is, like, maybe having a mental breakdown, and outside the hotel, Robert Pastorelli is, like, wandering around at, like, four o'clock in the morning,

muttering to himself, freaking out, basically having, like, a spiral, because he was like, how could I be that wrong about my instincts, about what it felt like, and you being right when I could feel it. You fucking got me. Yeah.

Uh huh. And he was like, and I had a thing on Silverado where I was just trying to keep my line about Kasdan pushing me in a moment and it felt too big and I didn't want to do it. And I watch the movie now and every time I'm just like, I should have fucking listened to him. Sometimes it feels wrong and you just have to like, trust. And I watched the fucking scene in draft day and I'm like, he's 100% right and I should have done the take that was 10% bigger.

But I do think it's an interesting Costner director story where like, he saw the big piece. Because I'm like, that scene should fucking work. Like, as you're saying, this is an insane way to open the movie you're like being shot out of a cannon it's it's a weird way to open the movie it's it's the pastor Ali chunk is totally so bizarre for ten minutes yeah but he knows what he's doing big picture which is like the moment when you remove pastor Ali when you place this guy alone on the planes it's gonna feel like a striking shift.

When the first 20 minutes of the movie have been so loud, so aggressive. Right. Yeah. Which is what happens. I'll say, I don't dislike these farting scenes, but they don't work for me that well. I think they work. They're fine. I think he's right. I don't know. I'd wonder how this would play in a theater. I've he's right. I don't know. I'd wonder how this would play in a theater. I've never seen it in a theater.

Probably is a gales of laughter. He calls him in a voice over the foulest man he ever met. Yes, that's the line. It's pretty funny. I mean, I guess there's also, it's like, it's a serious start. We're in a kind of a, this guy's kind of at a rock bottom, the Costner and Dunbar.

It might help to just kind of be like, you know I think it's the equivalent of the fucking the scene in in matrix Resurrections where like the sound goes out and I will be like finally gives neo silence for the first time Well, that's seen fucking rock right but you're like creating a cacophony of like shit Like fucking more chicken shooting himself in the head and our pastor Ellie farting now. It's like here. He is he gets to Fort Sedgwick another real place out there in Colorado and No one's here. Nobody is here. And now it's right. It's alright jump Dunbar. It's you and

Like, you know the empty horizon now if it was me I the like, you know, the empty horizon. Now, if it was me. I would maybe think twice about sticking around. Sure, I might be like, what was the way I came that way? Go back it. It doesn't look like anything could happen there. I mean, sure, the place. There's like a Skellington on the ground or when they're going there and

yeah, like the place is abandoned. But you also I guess, I mean, the idea is that this guy is operating in this weird mental state of like, I thought I was about to die. And now my life is taking all these weird turns. I'm like, he has like no grounding, you know? grounding, you know? And he's he wants he wants this experience,

this frontier experience. Yeah, you're also being introduced to this guy without like any backstory. You're just meeting this kind of like we never learned his back. Exactly. He's just kind of the shell of a man who's looking for meaning. He's he soon he meets stand to the fist played by Mary McDonnell, who is like out there alone, mourning, right. Mourning her lost husband and is, is mutilating herself for this reason. And he drags her back to the suit for her to recover, which is a bad look for him. You might think, but they do not, you might think. I would say, yeah.

But they do not kill him on sight or whatever. And instead, like they start to establish a bit of a rapport. They sort of trade things with each other. He starts to learn their language, learns their names. He meets Kicking Bird played by Graham Greene, who's sort of the medicine man. Like, that's nice. He's a kicking bird played by Graham Greene, who's sort of the medicine man. Like, that's nice. He's a nice guy. The rest of this movie is so boring to me. I'm so sorry.

Apart from the buffalo hunt, it's just boring. I basically agree with you. It's just people kind of being like, yeah, this is all right. They sense something in him though. It's that he's on his own. Yes. Yeah. He dances with the wolves. He dances with the wolves.

The wolf starts coming around. Two socks. That scene is so funny when they go, like we've. Yeah. He dances with wolves. He dances with wolves. The wolf starts coming around. That scene is so funny when they go, we've decided to call you dances of wolves. And he's like, what does that mean? They say it in Lakota. And they're like, dances with wolves. And he's like, why that? And they're like, well, the other day,

you were dancing with the wolves. And he goes like, oh, you saw that? He's kind of sheepish about it. He's like, I didn't think anyone was seeing me dance with those Dancing I'm doing a ballroom dance I Don't know what else to say about this move I don't either there's two hours left of the movie. Yeah to be clear when this starts That's the thing and it's a lot of vibing it takes

Just about a full hour to get to like cruising altitude with this movie, what the bulk of it is, which is him living amongst them. And then it's two hours that are just sort of like, yeah. Getting to know you. Yeah. The early falling in ones where he's inviting them over to his fort or whatever and like give serving them coffee. He, it plays, where he's inviting them over to his fort or whatever and like serving them coffee. He plays it really funny in that he's like

a desperate person who's like really lonely and is like having guests for the first time. There are things like that that really work for me. Things like when he rides to them with the flag and then the flag like blows in his face. He's like, yeah. I love how he's kind of they undermine Boonish at times. He he runs out and hits his head. Yeah, when I think the kids take the horse from him. He's not some

stirring badass hero. He's kind of a slightly loopy weirdo who cannot deal with I of a slightly loopy weirdo who cannot deal with, I mean, nor could I, being on the front of a gigantic, horrible war. So he's like, yeah, let me go out there and find myself. He's got kind of like a hippie thing, like a hundred years earlier. And hippies are annoying. And hippies will do shit, like, be like,

I got in touch with Native American stuff and now I know more, I, like, be like, I got in touch with Native American stuff and now I know more. I'd like, you know. Is that another reason why this movie hit so hard in this moment that you're coming like 30 years out of hippie culture? I remember this period of the 90s, seeing adults who were sort of like,

having this like Native American vibe, like wearing graphic t-shirts or just, I don't know, but you know, like that hippie, new age, pure moods kind of like moment in culture. I love pure moods. I do love a pure mood. Those albums hit. They do.

They're all on Spotify now. There's stuff in it like- They're good. Yeah, they are. Yeah, they are. David, yeah. Yeah. You're good. Yeah, they are. Yeah, they are. David, yeah, yeah. You're gonna like the way you moved.

You talking about him being like, this character being such an odd goof. What was the term you used? The term you used to describe this character. Loopy, hippie goof, I don't know. Whatever. They're similarly like, I kind of like,

in the slow burn of his romance, it does ultimately start to play out like deeply repressed teenagers. Like they're so fucking horny that they like can't stop touching each other. There's that sequence where they're in the woods and she keeps on pushing him away and then like jumping on him again.

That's kind of funny and charming and is just sort of bizarre and behavioral. But then it also starts to, we're starting to codify the things that make people ultimately get tired of Costner within the decade of just like, it's always this with this guy, where it's like, we're already starting to establish

the language of like, we're already starting to establish the language of like, well, you know, one of the things is women go absolutely insane when they meet Costner. I mean, yeah, right, right. They control themselves. This is the most sexual man who has ever existed that him just standing there like a tree makes people lose their fucking minds, which plays differently when you're the guy who's also writing and directing the movie.

And I'm watching that scene- It's like an insane manly project! It's easy to tag in with that. Totally. But he was hot stuff. He was! I'm denying that. And I'm watching these scenes and I'm like,

I'm altering back and forth, second to second, being charmed by this or being like, is this way too much? But then a lot versus other sections of the movies where I'm just kind of the poor. I think like Mary McDonald is good in the film. I think she's very good. I think Stands With A Fist is an excellent name, but like, you know, I do

wonder about these directors going like, can you lose that character where it's like, is this just like a girlfriend for you to have? Like among all the other stuff that you like is happening to you, John Dunbar, this character just kind of exists for, it's like, oh, it's someone for you to fall in love with. A convenient translator too. Right, right.

Well, which that I sort of, I get the dramatic necessity of like, we need someone who shares the language, each language. So, you know, they can, but I, you know, it just all feels like stuff we know to dodge now in this sort of storytelling. And for its good nature, like, and general distrust of like encroaching Americans and you know, the evil colonial white settlers and all that, like, which are not even, we don't even see them, but we just kind of know

this is the end of this kind of way of life, right? So there's the romance of that. Right. That's fine. The whole midsection of this movie is mostly about the threat of rival tribes. Right. That stuff is way less interesting to me. And I think that was the thing that a lot of natives had major complaints with, where it's like, you're just villainizing a different tribe that in a way that is not-

The Pony are one-dimensional. Yes, right. Right. And actually isn't historically reflective of the dynamic between... I think it's also the pony tribe now are like the Sioux tribe is much larger and more politically significant and like well known and You know they're the sort of stars of this movie and then we're just kind of like these secondary Villains who ride in and cause trouble like that's all we do in the movie. Like final 20 minutes of the movie Charles Rocket shows up. He sure does.

And is like hey, buddy I just want to remind you you're white Yeah, and he does his sort of like I have turned my back on you kind of speed fucking avatar I mean totally and then you think there's gonna be some last stand thing We're in certain ways. I respect that they don't do it and Basically, he's just like I should leave if I stay here. It's gonna fuck up There's a small action sequence of him being taken as a prisoner and then rescuing him. But yes, there is not a big showdown. Instead.

He's just like truly in hippie mode at this point where he's like, yeah, I've got feathers in my hair and I've got my like, you know, shawl wrapped around me and I'm fucking hanging out with everyone. Right. Looking like that. And... It's like you went away to camp, and all of a sudden you're wearing beads now. It's a little bit like that, and he's like, it's time for me to go. And they're like, well, we love you, man. Because they've already gotten married.

It's been really fun hanging this year. Let's also say, stay with this character. Let's say, it's not like I'm going to camp, okay? It's like a year abroad at college. Okay, let's give him that Right he spends a summer and winter with these guys stands with a fist character. Yes, Mary McDonnell Her family was slaughtered in front of her correct as a child. Yes. She was you know, probably like a Swedish settler Whatever, you know, whatever then she is adopted by the suit Graham Green and Tana Cardinal who basically the three of them are all the exact same age Tansy Cardinal looks amazing in this

she looks amazing in her hey obviously it doesn't it's not like egregious because they're adoptive parents it is just funny that they're all the same age yeah I think there's a mcdonnell three of them. I'll just go by now. She's 72 now. Graham Green is 71 now. Tantoo Cardinal is 73 now. Yeah, that's pretty funny. Yeah. They have raised her. She like has spent the majority of her life living amongst them. That is like her culture, right? It's not like Costner being like, I kind of like this. It is kind of weird. The end result of the movie is that like he's the outsider. He brings danger with him basically. There's this question of like, are the settlers going to come for us eventually

no matter what? Right? Like how long can we survive? But his big point is like, they now hate me. They hate me. I'm top of the list because I'm a traitor to them. Exactly, I'm a problem in a way that they don't want. Whereas long as I live amongst you, there's gonna be a giant bullseye, and they're like, should we move to a different area? And he's like, don't fucking move, I'll just leave. By the way, I'm taking her with me.

No, I'm not saying that- The new women will always whisper his name. She doesn't have agency in that decision, but it does feel like kind of a weird ending to be like well obviously you have to leave your family That's true. I don't know man Go make dances wolves to answer these questions Fucking Blake wrote a second book more dances with more wolves and Costner was like I'll never fucking do a single unless It's a part two to my American Saga

was like, I'll never fucking do a sequel. Unless it's a part two to my American saga. Yeah, the Buffalo Hunt's really good, okay? Yeah. Yeah, so I asked before, Griff, because there's so many shots in that sequence. I'm like, how did they do that? They shot for six days. That's awesome.

There was like one guy in the area who I think might have been the governor who had like the largest amount of buffalo He talks about this in that fucking timeline my career free this free range of you know Yeah Now and it's not the current governor of South Dakota who keeps shooting more animals to prove that she was right to shoot that first Dog right now kind of the opposite of her more animals to prove that she was right to shoot that first dog, right? No, kind of the opposite of her. But he had this like the largest percentage of buffalo and he had to keep on like pleading with him to let him shoot and they finally got it and I think they just had like helicopters, multiple trucks with cameras attached to them. And the way they

got this was just they just kept fucking doing it. Like when you say how'd they get so many shots, it was just six consecutive days of just doing the run over and over and over and over again and shooting each time with as many cameras as possible having Kevin Reynolds help him whatever it is. He said the first time he did it they did the run he was like so exhilarated and then looked back at the footage and then looked back at the footage and none of the native actors had fired a single arrow. And they were like, we just don't do shit like this anymore.

This is like wild that we were so overwhelmed by it that we weren't even thinking. Like we lost sight of the point of the scene. And then he was like, you gotta fucking quiver, arrows, do shit. We're shooting man, it's a buffalo hunt. Right and then said like all the actors got very competitive then so then every take after that was usable and they just kept on getting pieces and pieces and pieces and he kept on shooting it was like it was the

most transcendent shit it was like you can feel the energy of it that he was like this is the magic of the fucking movie I can't believe we're getting this. This is like so overwhelming in its reality. And then he was like day six I like called for another reset to do another take. I think I'm not acting in that scene he's like in the helicopter behind the camera and They call action and there's like a bull on the field and the bull none of of the buffalo move. And then the bull like charges towards the helicopter and almost hits it and they pull up and he looks in the buffaloer still. And he was like, that's like nature calling for a picture rep. Like he didn't frame it that way, but he was like, it was a moment where it was like, everyone

was saying to me, like, you got enough. The buffalo gave you six days to filming? Enough, leave them alone. Obviously they like to run around, but nonetheless. But like in unison, they all were just like, nope, we're done. Right. Costner, as he says in the dossier, he's like, more, more. If something's good, let's keep doing it.

This is good, let's keep doing it. Like, why would we stop? And in his Costner, like, everything has such great import way. He's like, that's a moment where nature was telling me, you have to listen to the elements. Shut up, Kevin. I want... Here's the thing. I want to like this movie. I don't come into this being like, well, obviously,

this is like the shitty film that shouldn't have won over Goodfellas. And I think if there's like a spectrum of like... ordinary people, Forrest Gump dances with wolves, which often gets cited as three of the most extreme examples of like the wrong movie one, right? Sure. There was the cool movie that has aged incredibly well. Right. That lost to like the big sort of emotional whatever that we've done our Forrest Gump episode that movie actually kind of like upsets me and I just find it very like manipulative now this movie doesn't like I don't bump against it in

the same way versus ordinary people where I'm like ordinary people rules ordinary people is very good I don't think it's the best picture of 1980. I don't either, but I think it's a cool best picture winner. Sure. It's not cool. Let's not go crazy. It is, because it's such a fucking modest, small, bottled film.

I know what you're saying. It's an interesting best picture winner. When you remove what it beat. But like Elf and Man are raging bull. What if it's also been interesting best picture winner. When you remove what it beats. But like Elven Man or Raging Bull would have also been interesting best picture winners. When you remove what it beats. I think this is kind of an absurd best picture winner. But no it isn't because it made so much money.

Like if it didn't, if it wasn't a movie that was transformatively successful, then I would say like they literally just gave it to this because they love fucking sucking movie stars dicks. They do. Which they do. Which they do. But this movie was such a gigantic hit. Like you said, what's above it? Ghost, which was also made for Best Picture, but is God bless it, a stupid movie with rocks in its brains.

And it's like fun, but Ghost is dumb. They couldn't give it Best Picture. They couldn't quite get there with Ghost. Right. And Home Alone. And that was a phenomenon. And Home Alone, which would be... It's weirdly snubbed for Best Picture. I love that movie. They were trying to swing the Oscars down to it on a paint can but they miss that would have been fun I agree. It would have been fun

Can we the crack of this Oscar year because there's a lot of fasting shit happening in this year I know we talked about it in our hunt for October episode because I was saying like It feels like hunt for October should have been nominated for best picture. I certainly think it's better than this film. Well, it's better than three to four of the best picture nominees this year. But there are also movies with strong narratives

where you're like, there was no way they weren't gonna nominate that. No, but the best picture nominees are Dancing with Wolves, big hit. Ghost, big hit. Goodfellas, it's a critical hit. And a solid box office hit. The Godfather Part III,

which probably has no business being here, but the last two Godfathers won best picture. And once again, in what world is it not gonna get nominated? It's probably gonna make it in. Right, it's kind of, yeah. And then Awakenings, which is probably, without a doubt, the least remembered of these nominees I like more than this film. It's a pretty like pretty well done charming like pretty okay movie. It's like kind of

the best of the like gentlemen six super earnest prestige e model and Oscar movies Yeah, and it's well acted. It's well acted, yeah. Now, like, if I'm picking best picture this year, and of course I'm not, I'm assuming I'm not allowed to pick like King of New York or to Sleep with Anger or Close Up or like, need movies from this time

that I love. Talk about movies that are in the conversation. Gremlin's the new batch. Right, right. I mean, Gremlin's the new batch should have won best picture of it. Goodfellas, Miller's Crossing, Hunt for Red October for fucking sure. Yeah. Am I allowed

total recall? I don't think you are. Am I allowed Wild at Heart? I don't think you are. Am I allowed Green Card? I think you are. And can I have Edward Scissorhands? I don't think you are. Can I have the Grifters? Yes. Got a great five there. Yeah. Thank you. And The Misery, like that's a movie that obviously is an Oscar player, but doesn't break through the top. Could have been. It is. Postcards from the Edge is a really good movie. This thought experiment of what you just did. Yeah.

So many of the genre films this year have not. Because Edward's Sister Hands is a big movie. Yeah, it was a big hit. Yeah. But have not just aged the best, but almost now are seen as like the more important serious films Oh, that's why the Oscars pissed away So as much as I enjoy the Oscars so much cultural relevance in the 90s by giving movies That were not zeitgeist II but did pretty well and got good reviews

But like we're just doomed to be forgotten, but is there a universe where like best picture is? be forgotten. But is there a universe where like best picture is dances with wolves, good fellas, Godfather Part 3, Edward Scissorhands, Hunt for Red October, and it feels a little more whatever. Yeah. Now I feel like there's no actor. Did you want to do actor? No, supporting actress is the one that I think is fascinating. Let me just give you actor first. Please. Because Costner was nominated. He lost to Jeremy Irons for reversal of fortune. Jeremy Irons is great in reversal of fortune. I think it's this combo of he's like doing an accent, Irons has been around for a while, the movie is so fun and lurid, I don't know, they like the kind of villainy thing, that's why he wins.

Yeah, it's also, I mean, he gets up there and famously thanks David Cronenberg and is like, this is kind of the residual juice of people saying I should have won for Dead Ringers. Kevin Costner is not made for Dance of the Wolves. De Niro is the pick for awakenings over Williams. Makes sense he's the one who's awakening. Although I do think Williams is the better performance. It's the classic Rain Man thing of like the showier actors getting in there. Gérard Depardieu is getting in for Cyrano de Bergerac. I would say that's a double nomination for that and Green Card. Like he's sort of emerging.

Not Green Book. No, I bet he likes Green Book though. I guarantee you he loves Green Book. He's good, I did no crimes. And then Richard Harris for the field, the Jim Sheridan movie, which rocks, in which he plays the angriest old farmer in the fucking world.

Kind of a forgotten movie, but Harris is like a legend. So it's sort of like a... Yes. Now, who are the Golden Globe nominees, Griff? I just wanted to, you know, like, who's on the outside of this, right? Will the Globes nominate Depp for Scissorhands for comedy? They sure do. Yeah.

They also nominate Richard Gere for Pretty Woman. They also nominate Patrick Swayze for Ghost. Do they nominate Macaulay? They also nominate Macaulay Culkin for Home Alone. So they nominate Patrick Swayze for Ghost. Did they nominate Macaulay? They also nominate Macaulay Culkin for Home Alone. So they nominate the stars of those big movies where they're like, you know, hey, like, congratulations, you were the big star of the movie this year. And the Oscars are like, do thank you.

The Oscars also ignore Al Pacino in The Godfather Part III, which is honestly an amazing performance. He's so good in it. It's the part of that movie. They pull him back in. He says that line in that movie. I think his performance is a little undeniable. He's really good in it, but I think they're just feeling stinky about it, and they actually

nominate him in supporting for Dick Tracy, a subtler performance as big boy Caprice. Al Pacino. It is very funny to think of this being, and obviously we just covered this recently, but Pacino is 20 years into a career, he has still not won an Oscar, and they're like, we're not nominating for you for Godfather Part Three and we're giving you this sort of pat on the back number Dick Tracy. You put on a bunch of makeup, good for you. Now, you wanted to talk about supporting actress.

This is an incredible fight. This is a year where, it just, what jumped out to me was, this is a year where arguably you could imagine every one of these nominees winning in a different year. So Whoopi Goldberg wins for ghost. Yes It's a seismically funny comedy performance. It's her second nomination one of the biggest movie of the year She was kind of should have won for the color purple. Yeah, and I think they know it She's rapidly becoming one of the most famous people alive really famous

It's all happening whoopee Goldberg You are the winner of the nominees Annette Benning for the Grifters, an incredible kind of star-making performance. An astonishing performance, right. Great performance. The performance that basically starts the run of Annette Benning being overdue. Sure.

Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas, in a lot of years, she could win, like a really, really amazing, super dramatic, big performance, lots of crying and yelling, another kind of star-making role. But they were like, go to the jungle. Maybe you can find me a medicine man. Do you not feel like in lighter years,

like either of those two probably would have beat Mercedes' role in The Fisher King? Yeah, yeah, sure. 100%. Let's keep it going. No disrespect to Mercedes. Let's keep it going. You've got Mary MacDonald in Dance of the Wolves. Yeah, an excellent performance in the movie that wins Best Picture. She's going to get another nomination, I think, the next year for Passionfish. Yes. Right, Passionfish? For LEAD. Yeah, yeah.

You got Diane Ladd for Wild at Heart. Which we will talk about soon. A legend. Yes. Acting alongside her daughter. She's crazy performance. She's so good. It's kind of wild. They were cool enough to nominate that in a year rather otherwise pretty conservative. That's true. So it's a great five Diane like the following year just the emotional Added punch of her working with Dern on rambling Rose that feels like that was more Had more juice to possibly be the career win

But like all five of those people are, that's an interesting category. This fucking win best screenplay over Goodfellas. That's so crazy. The Goodfellas screenplay is so good. They are just so thrilling in the tank for this. Cause it wins editing as well. It doesn't win cinematography.

No, it does win cinematography. Of course it wins cinematography. It would be insane if it didn't win that. Which it's a gorgeous movie. If nothing else, it is a gorgeous looking movie Dean Semler who'd done a lot of you know He did Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. He's an Australian guy. Yeah, a couple Mad Max Yeah, can we talk about the coolest thing that happens this year at the Oscars? Nick Park

wins best animated short film for creature comforts or even before right Nope Wins best animated short film for a great comfort. Oh creature comfort. So even before right? Well, nope Beating Nick Park for a grand day out, you know what? But that's what I don't like it I think a grand day out is better than creature comforts. Mmm, and I think the Oscars fucked up What do you think I disagree with the grand day outs my favorite well It might be my favorite It's not in close shave is Grand Day Out's my favorite. Well, it might be my favorite. It's not insane. Close shave is, or no, I'm sorry,

wrong trousers, wrong trousers. Yeah, it's between those two, but the simplicity of Grand Day Out, him saying Wensley Dale, just them being on the moon, the moon robot. I just love Grand Day Out so much. I love it, but Bruno Bezzetto, who's like a legendary Italian animator,

who Delegro N troppo which is like considered the Italian Fantasia you and I talked about him recently when we did the Kim's video video with ARP he's the third nominee it's Nick Park twice against himself he wins pretty cool he probably got up there was like hello and everyone was like this is what all English people are like creature comforts is incredibly well done very fun it's also just one of those things where you're like, Jesus Christ, what a fucking good idea. Yeah, it's a good idea. Nailed it?

It's a good concept. Yes. It's like Drunk History where you're like, how did no one fucking think of this? Got to show those movies to my daughter. Yeah, you do. She'll like grommet. Grommet? So Costner wins all the Oscars.

The tapes come out. It's the most popular rental of all time. That's the other thing, on video, it ends up doing better than Ghost. Like Ghost Out grows to theaters, Dances with Wolves remains big. They re-released the four hour cut, nine months later, it's already back in theaters,

making more money, longer version. People are like, give me all the fucking dances you got. Boring. But that's the story of dances with wolves three stars it's okay I don't know C plus B minus yeah it looks good it doesn't do it for me but I also don't have very strong feelings against it here's a provocative question not to get ahead of next week's episode. You're going to provoke me right now?

Yep. The whole time I'm watching this, I'm like, do I like the postman more than I like the postman? Wow. I was like, you're not going to ask that question, are you? But you did. You asked that question. I think I like this film. I think this is a more functional film than the postman. No question. I think I like this film. I think this is a more functional film than the postman No, and I like that it it you know, it explores a little nuance in its storytelling, which I would say the postman avoids I think there's a nuance postman asks a very provocative question, which is what if there were letters?

What if Tom Petty was the mayor of somewhere what if there was mail Ben do you prefer the postman I like talking about it. I like talking about Ben's about to physically kick me out of the studio. I mean, even asking this question. Crazy. Yeah. What do you think of this movie? But I had never seen it before. Yeah. That's a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. I paused it a few times. Yeah. It's a pauser. I might have split this movie in half. I might have had a Kit Kat approach to watching this film.

Made a sandwich, ate the sandwich, did a chore or two, came back to it, paused it again. I had about eight hours of sleep in between acts of this film. I mean it's a really simple story. Very simple. That is almost the thing as much as it sort of bores me that I want to commend it for the most. Yeah, there's something interestingly understated for a movie that is dealing with incredibly simplistic, reductive sort of story themes. Yeah, it is just telling the behavioral version of that story. Watching it now, it just didn't have maybe the same impact

as it did when it came out in 1990, which like, duh, obvious. But I don't know, it just, to me, I was like, wow, this just feels like a really outdated film. Yeah, it does. It feels old fashioned in somewhat embarrassing ways. And then also in ways you're kind of like, sure, I get it. I get it. I get it.

Flatliners was nominated for best sound slanners has cool sound, probably just the beeps. He truly that's my first. I don't remember. I haven't seen that movie since. That sound effects. I would like to befriend a wolf. Sure. That is as the away. I support you. Yeah, even a coyote which is a small a coyote chills with Coyotes that's your name. You want that to be your nickname for this series?

chills with coyotes November 9th 1990 David so frustrated that we've gone one hour and 49 minutes on dances with Walt. Let's play the box office game. People are gonna be so angry about this episode. Well, actually, I started us a little late, so actually we're at two hours. Oh, really?

Okay, great, box office game. So we're doing great. Let's go. We're doing fine. November 9th, 1990. It's coming out limited release on 14 screens, making 42,000 a theater huge huge limited release What that's why weekend its wide weekend is next week and know the weekend after next

Yes, the weekend after next and was it open to? Then yeah the white and mill But yeah, even then but but we're gonna we going to do this weekend because this weekend is interesting anyway. Number one at the box office is a horror sequel. Is it a Freddy? No. Is it a Jason? No.

Is it one of the canonical? I would say yes. It's a canonical series, but a little off to the side or sillier. It's not Texas Chainsaw 2, is it? No, no, no, that's way earlier. But does it have one of the icons of horror? I would say so. You love this guy. Chucky?

It's Child's Play 2? Child's Play 2. They call him! I don't know what they call him. This is my favorite one too, as well. Yeah, this is kind of the best one, right? I I strongly think so. Yeah, what happens in this one? I don't fucking remember Chuck. He's in it He's cutting a big jacket box on he has like an older sister

Kind of like looking after him and Chuck he comes back and no one believes him three is pretty bad Right, like people are kind of down on military Academy one, right? And then of course bride of Chuckie is sort of like, Oh, interesting reinventing it. All that. But this one got lucky there. I don't know if you remember. This one ends in the factory, right? Yes. Yes. Which is the best set. Cool. Yeah. Uh, but it's opening to a healthy $10 million. Yeah. Chuckie, child was played to doing well. Number two at the box office, a movie I do like a lot.

A psychological horror film. David's nodding profusely. It's not amazing or anything, but it's kind of like an influential movie in a lot of ways. Yes. 1998, psychological horror, influential. It's not Jacob's Ladder, is it? It's Adrian Lyon's film, Jacob's Ladder. Psychological horror, influential. It's not Jacob's Ladder, is it? It's Adrian Lyon's film, Jacob's Ladder.

Well, that's what it was. Starring Tim Robbins. Now, sort of famous for its twist ending in general, but also for the effect of... Have you ever seen it, Ben? It's about this guy... The twist is that it ends up being a shoot. He thought it was on a ladder. It's a shoot.

We both made not good jokes. And you know what? I think the audience is better for it. We're united, you and I. You know, it's about a Vietnam veteran who... He thinks he's going do do do and he's going do. Well, honestly, that is correct.

Have you seen Jacob Sider? Yeah, I'm speaking in metaphors here, but I'm kind of right. It's Adrian Lyons big fallout to fatal attraction. It's about this guy who thinks he's going crazy because he's seeing these crazy hallucinations. Are you going to spoil Jacob's ladder here on this podcast? No, but when he's having these crazy dreams, it does have a famous twist ending. But he sees these people like shaking their heads and they accelerate the head movement and it looks like their heads are vibrating.

And that is just like, becomes like, all horror video games use that. It's like Silent Hill uses that. The poster is just that and is very evocative. It's so cool. It's like the movie itself is a pretty good, spooky kind of clever, thinky horror movie. but it's got these little visual ideas in it. We're like, Ooh, that's juicy.

Number three at the box office. We talked about it a bunch. Also let's just, one of the biggest hits of the year. Home alone? No, that's opening next week. Is it ghost? Ghost. Ghost.

Ghost. Ghost has been out for a while at this point. Ghost has been out for 18 weeks, my friend, and it's number three at the box. They're going to remake that, right? Yeah. That's just like, that's destined to be made. That's a good call. I think Channing has said he has the rights, which makes a lot of sense. Now he has also said to his credit that he has not gone through with it because they have not come up with a good enough take. Sure, what if it was a ghost? Okay, came up with a take. I do like

Channing just kind of taking it off the board. Sure, good for you Channing. Either he has a take on it or just no one ever fucking does it. If anyone out there really loves Ghost, I'm sorry for calling it a dumb movie with rocks in its head, but it is. It's a tremendous amount of fun. It's fun, yeah, it's a fun movie. It's a deeply silly film. Yeah. I like all the scary parts, but there's not much of that. That thing I want to say about Ghost. What? What do you want to say?

The thing that's cool about it is it is a movie that is like 12 genres at the same time, to your point. Yeah, when it's doing like the ghosty stuff, it's kind of cool. And when it's like a very, very trickly romance, it's mostly lame. Sometimes it's like a body swap comedy. When it's a comedy, it's fun. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it is a wild movie for that reason.

It's kind of set in like my old neighborhood. It's cool. Oh, hey, David, what's next? Number four, the box office is a comedy. Okay. I can't say I know this movie. At all? Or you don't know it well. I don't, I know this movie at all or you don't know. Well, I don't think I really know it at all. I mean, I know the director and I know the stars and I guess it makes sense

that this star who is a sitcom actress is in her phase of trying to become a movie star. So it's a Shelley long. No, but you're close. Is it a kirstie alley? That's right. There we go. So it's not a look who's talking no

I feel like I was just digging into kirstie alley's movie from a legendary comedy director Not a guy who always made great movies, but Blake Edwards is it no, but I'm in the sort of right zone Sort of an old hand Recently died we lost him only in 2020 we 2020. The grand old age of 98. It was not Stanley Donah. No. He didn't live that long, did he? He lived really fucking long.

Stanley Donah. I think he lived to like 100. Who is it? It's a legendary comic director who died in 2020. Made a movie with Christianirsti Alley. Bill Pullman's in this film. Carrie Fisher. Sam Elliott. Who are the top two? I just named them. Well I'm saying, is it a Keirsti

Alley Bill Pullman vehicle? No. Keirsti Alley vehicle. It's a Keirsti Alley vehicle first and foremost. Bill Pullman, Carrie Fisher, Jamie Gertz, Scott Baculis, Francis Sternhagen, John Randolph, Paul Benedict, Sam Elliott, Ed O'Neill. The fuck is this movie?

Here's the tagline. Yeah, give it to me. Wait, let me find the full tagline. Oh boy. I feel like it'll help. Okay. Definitely won't help. The full tagline is of course, she did it and boy is she sorry.

Is it like a murder company? I guess so, I don't know anything about it. It was directed by Carl Reiner, I'll tell you that much. Oh, weird. Well, it's not Fatal Instinct. No. No, what is it? Sibling Rivalry. No fucking idea.

Never heard of this movie. Never heard of this. It made 17 million at the box office, so. That's wild. Okay. Why don't you chew on that? Number five at the box office wins best actor this you watch on that number five of the box office wins best actor this year we were just talking about it's called reversal have you seen it yeah I watched it for the legal draft reversal of fortune it's good movie class fun below it's pretty good he

killed his wife for diddy you've also got we've talked about you like that movie right it's fun fun like you know that movie, right? I like it, it's fun. It's fun, fun, like, you know, sort of see me thriller. I like it. You've also got the erotic drama White Palace starring two of our horniest actors, Susan Sarandon and James Spader. You've got... You weren't being facetious there. Those are two of our all time horniest movies.

That's what I'm saying. It was one of those things where it's like these two are in a movie together and I'm like, do they fuck? And it's like, that's all they do, man, yeah. You've got Quigley down under, one of the forgotten Westerns of the early 90s, starring Tom Selleck and Laura Sangiacomo. The movie always feels a little to me like Selleck being like, you know what, I'll do like an Indiana Jones type thing,

finally, I'll come back around to it. But he's in Australia, like, I don't know. He's like a cowboy who has to go to Australia. But that's his belated adventure film after not doing Raiders. You've got the war film Memphis Belle, which is about bombers in the World War II, flying the beasts, the B-17 bomber. It's like Matthew Modine, Eric Stoltz. Stoltz, Aston, Connick Jr. young faces.

Let's go. Not a big hit. I don't think the youngest of the youngest of them all. This guy's too tall to get in this fucking plane. Let me fly the plane. You've got Marked for Death, which I think is one of the less well regarded early seagull films. It's the one with Scott like some sort of like sort of voodoo villain. I guess that doesn't go completely about a movie that's probably age perfectly. And you have a re-release of Fantasia.

Those are the top 10 films and Dancers Wolves opens at number 11. But yes, the week after this, Home Alone comes out and the week after that, Dancers Wolves expands and begins a great box office run. So that's the start of our mini-series on Kevin Costaner. Like I said, three stars, C-, C+, whatever.

Yeah, two wild movies coming up. One of the most fascinating follies. I feel like we've covered in a while, although we did just do Martin for a series and and and then like a secret masterpiece. I guess not as secret anymore range. I think it's less secret, but I do still think like it's a movie more people should see and talk about and yeah, we have so much fun talking about the postman next week with Emily St. James. I'll reveal it. Yeah, reveal it. And yeah, we have so much fun talking about the Postman next week with Emily

St. James. I'll reveal it. Yeah, reveal it. Fuck. Should we reveal the Open Range guest? You guys have all been baying for it. No, don't say anything else. Well, yes, I don't know. Well, we don't say it on the open on the Postman episode. Just know. Good. Good.

Fine. Fine. Good. Fuck you. You know what? Trying guess. I don't know if you folks have noticed this episode is marking Maybe the first appearance of summer David think we're gonna have to run that AC guys. I'm debuting this notion summer David It's gonna have to go. I'm sweating you're wet wet. Yes come touch it if you don't believe me I don't believe it. All right good All right, Okay. So while

doubling down here, well Ben's ripped off a paper towel, he's ripped off a sheet of paper towel. He's dabbing at me. It would you say it's wetter? Damn. I'm going to have to say it's damp. Yeah, it's damp. We're not, I'm not, it's not pouring. I'm not like an airplane. I'm not what's his pants and airplane. Hayes Yeah, I always think about that could do a sucker series But we'd have to do sort of the tendrils of Zucker and then it's like there's the one who goes all right wing like yeah, right like it's you got to deal with how they that's the problem how they separate because there's that the zazz of it all but Like we could not cover Jane Austen's one off you Definitely could it would be like that.

I said it would be OK. If it's just the ones that the three of them did together. So do we one do we do Kentucky Fried movie? It's a land is obviously. But do we do it just as our part of our fucking land? I feel like land is we punt only to

page. So it's airplane. Top secret. Ruthless people. Yeah, a huge time. Yeah. OK. And then it's Jim Abraham's makes big business. So we do that. David Zucker does naked gun. We do that. Yeah. Jerry Zucker

does ghosts. So we do that. Yeah. Jim Abraham's makes welcome home Roxy Carmichael with Winona Ryder. Did we do that? Yeah. Okay. Back to David Zucker does take a gun two and a half. I don't fear. We're still right in the money Okay, we're still doing that. Yeah, right. Uh-huh First night. No, well, no, then Jim Abraham's does hot shots. We gotta do that I gotta do that game Ben Jim Abraham's does hot shots part two It's great the best mini sounds pretty good all time All right, and then I guess actually none of them directed Naked Gun 33 and a half.

So we maybe put that on Patreon or something. Then Jerry does first- That's Peter Siegel, I think. Yes, that's right. First Night, you know, the Arthurian movie. Okay. We're still cooking with gas. Oh, I forgot to mention Ghost, of course,

comes with Queen. You said Ghost. Oh, I did? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm losing my mind. Yeah. So sweaty. Okay, I'm losing my mind. Yeah, so sweaty Okay, then Abraham's made a movie. Oh, it's a made for TV movie. Forget it. What was it first? Do no harm like doesn't know street doesn't fucking but then Jim Abraham's made Jim Jane Austen's Mafia. Yep. Gotta do that Then David Tucker did baseball Yeah, probably gotta do that one. Yeah, I'm nodding.

Gary Zucker did rat race. Yeah. Gotta do that. Wow, they really do. Okay, then the end is a little tough, sliding. How many fucking movies does this make? Then it's two scary movies. Yeah, the thing, and now the other two have retired.

David remains, the right-wing one, and he does My Boss's Daughter. That one's. With Kutcher and Tara Reid. Rough as hell. And then scary movies three and four. And then the one, An American Carol. But that's the last one.

Which is the one where it's like Michael Moore plus Christmas Carol or whatever. Yeah. And like Trace Atkins plays like George Washington or some shit. John Voight plays George Washington, my friend. Trace Atkins plays maybe just angry American. Let's see. I'll tell you. Yes. He plays the angel of death. There we go. And I'll tell you crazy Kelsey Grammer plays George Patton. Great.

I think what you just described is a clean 15. It would be pretty good. Good and smooth. Maybe we'll put on bracket at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Nielsen plays Osama Bin Nielsen? What's going on there? What's happening there? What's the answer to that?

I guess we gotta do it. Now we gotta do it. I just Googled Osama Bin Nielsen and now I think I'm gonna watch this. Ay yi yi. That was truly in the era of like, Republicans can do comedy too. See? That was their first stand of the like, Republicans are learning humor

and the left is terrible. Jon Stewart is the only one making jokes. Yeah. What was the show? Fuck, what was it called? It was like the Fox News show. Oh, fuck. I can't remember what it was.

It wasn't called, this hour has no. 22 minutes. No, that's a different thing, right? It's a different thing. But it't remember what it was. It wasn't called this hour has 22 minutes. No, that's a different thing, right? It's a different thing. But it had some kind of name. That's a Canadian thing. Right. What's it? I can't remember. God. Yeah.

I just remember how bad it was and it was like, hell yeah. This rocks. This is the worst shit ever. Whatever. Anyway. Everything's fine now. We're doing great. You guys don't like Gut Field? That guy's funny. He's so now. We're doing great. You guys don't like Gutfield? That guy's funny.

He's so funny. Gutfield's incredible. The half hour news hour. There you go, that's what it was called. Okay, so I wasn't that funny. I knew, we both knew it was something with time. Who was the host? The host, of course, was Kurt Long.

I don't fucking know, man. I don't know. I just remember it started with like Rush Limbaugh as the president being like, I'm the president and the audience. Wait, saying here, Dennis Miller was a regular contributor. Get out of here, babe. What are you talking about? That's the kind of humor people had when Dancers of Wolves came out.

That's why this was such a big hit. Regular contributor. Dennis was contributing as much as Peter North at at a sperm bank babe. I don't know it's hard to riff a Dennis Miller joke in real time. How did he how did how did people like that? No one was funny. It was insane. He just said a bunch of stuff. It was insane. He even himself there's a really interesting interview with him where he is like I don't even think what I do is that funny. I'm not a good joke writer. I basically just have like fast recall and a deep filing system is how he described his approach to joke writing. He's like, I just have a lot of files with

references and I'm quick at pulling them out. Anyway, next week we're talking about The Postman. Yep, we're gonna be seeing games, really fun app. Yeah. You're Tom Petty in the mail. Tom Petty in the mail. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. David's giving a thumbs up to the clock.

It looks good. Thank you to Murray Barty. Thank you to Murray Barty for helping to produce the show. Thank you to AJ McKinnon for our editing. AJ McKinnon is also our production coordinator. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research. Lane Montgomery, Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song.

Pam Rowlands and Joe Bowen for our artwork. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit including our patreon blank check special features where we do commentaries on film series and we are rounding out turtles starting the board games tabletops. Let's see this one this episode is coming out July 21st so we are about to talk about on this very day Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mutant Man. We're closing it out with a movie that, spoiler,

Good. Ben liked quite a bit. I loved it. Is good, is good. Give me a major smile. But also Water World will be coming on that feed. Yes, on August 11th we will talk Water World. Yes.

One of the wettest fucking movies ever made, Ben. Yeah, oh yeah. And as always, Ben shows with Coyotes.