Blank Check with Griffin & David - Hook with Lin-Manuel Miranda

Episode Date: April 6, 2025

Everyone knows Captain Hook got swallowed by the crocodile at the end of Peter Pan. But what this movie presupposes is…maybe he didn’t? Let us go back to a time when the coolest thing a kid could have was a clubhouse that looked like a skatepark…when the worst thing a dad could do was own a cell phone…and when the craziest thing a filmmaker could do was agree to make a movie that started off as a child’s drawing. Lin-Manuel Miranda - most famous for starring as Captain Hook in his sixth grade production of Peter Pan - joins us on a trip to Neverland as we unpack Spielberg’s 1991 fantasia Hook. Bangarang, Blankies! And RIP Rufio. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your  pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack So your... no, what the hell? Your best... I said your best, man. I don't have a good one. So your adventures no, what the hell? Your best, I said your best Maggie. I don't have a good one. So your adventures are over. Oh no, to podcast. To podcast would be an awfully big adventure. Oh sure, why aren't you Scottish?

I don't know. I'm not like, I'm not about to say that I did a good Maggie Smith. No, I did a terrible Robin Williams. Oh, to podcast. Oh, I went too gravelly too. I went a little. But you sound Scottish.

To podcast? You sound like you're from the mountains. I'm trying to find the, oh, oh. To podcast. Now, he's tough to do. He's tough to do. In that he's inimitable. Like, you know, he has a specific thing.

I'll say this. I think I can do an adequate, terrible impression of Robin Williams doing comedy runs, which is kind of what everyone can do an adequate terrible impression of Robin Williams doing comedy runs, which is kind of what everyone can do. Drama Robin is a little harder to do. Say it's not your fault. I don't know, David. It's not your fault.

Yeah, see, I'm going... Do the monkey with me. Yeah. It neesons on you every time. It neesons. Someone has called out that I basically only have three impressions. Okay, so one of the three. And one third of them get drawn towards Nisen.

Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Nisen. Uh-huh. And I'm trying to remember who the third one is. I don't know. They're like, they're only three that he can actually do kind of well. And everyone else, he's trying to draw them closer to one of those three pillars. Oh.

Verhoeven. Oh, my Verhoeven impression. I think we both do Verhoeven. Which means we both do Goldmembereven. Sure, fair enough. Which means we both do Goldmember. It's just Goldmember. It's just, excuse me, please. You know we somehow didn't talk about the entire Oscar season?

The invisible man would attack people. What's that? The Oscar-nominated director of the substance. Her last name is the way that Goldmember says father. Coralie Farge. Farge. Farge. Farja. Farja. Okay, yes.

I didn't, I didn't know that. Isn't it weird that we spent the whole Oscar season not talking about gold member? I don't think it's that weird that that never came up. I think it's weird. Okay. No, but Robin, Robin. It's a whole, there it is.

See, I'm getting too, I don't know what's happening here. You sound like a troll guarding guarding a gem in a mountain. Well, don't tell Jimmy Fallon, he's going to put that in his SNL audition. Wait, I don't get the reference. That's a very specific reference. Jimmy Fallon's SNL audition was him doing- Lots of impressions.

The troll company auditioning new celebrity mascots, spokespeople. So that was his way to do a lot of impressions. Yes. And then I went to see, when I was, I guess, 12 or 13, the Strokes play at the Roseland Ballroom and the opening act, an incredible concert to see at such a young age. Although I saw the Strokes around that same time and they were truly like, they came out for 35 minutes and they were like, we don't do fucking encore since just left.

But carry on. This was the Is This It tour. They did a proper set. Yeah. And I believe it was the strokes, the Monis Suzuki, and the opening act was Jimmy Fallon. Wow. I think this was before maybe Bathroom Wall had even come out.

But he's famous. Oh, he's very famous. But he hadn't done the album. So I want to say he didn't even do Idiot Boyfriend. And he did the Trolls routine. And I was like, where did this come from? Did people like it? Yeah, kill.

Was that crowd into it? I'm just saying, doing comedy in front of a rock show can be... It was humongous. But then years later I saw like in one of those SNL, like, I bet you wonder what their auditions were like, and I was like, that was his audition piece. And he's now going and doing it at fucking rock concerts. A thing that lives very large in my mind that for most people means nothing.

That could be the name of this podcast. That. That could be the name of this podcast. That's why I like it so much. Well, we have a lot of similar detritus in our heads. Detritus in the head is another name for this podcast. That's why I like it so much. Well, we have a lot of similar detritus in our heads. Detritus in the head is another name for this podcast. Exactly, just floating bits of garbage. Mental spring cleaning.

You know what I mean? What is the actual name of this podcast? Can't check Griffin and David. It's blank check with Griffin and David. Yeah, I kinda. Put some respect on the articles. All right, you're right. Yeah. You're right, you're right.

I'm Griffin. I shouldn't rush it. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies and detritus in our heads. You're right. You're right. You're right. I'm Gryffian. I shouldn't rush it. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies and detritus in our heads. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear

and sometimes they bounce, baby. Yes. Do you ever think about how Robin Williams, banning Peter Penn in Hook says that- A spoiler. To live would be the great adventure, right? And Hook says to Smee like death is the only adventure he has left. Just interesting. Peter Pan is such an interesting text I'll get into it. Mm-hmm like the Big ol'

Bolly yarn that is Peter Pan. It's a mini-series on the films the early films of Steven Spielberg the first half of his career It's called Podrastic Cast. That's right. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing. Wrong. Not a thing. And today we're talking about Hook,

and our guest today returning to the show. Long overdue. Long in negotiations. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, it just took a while to get here. There were a couple things flowing around. I think this was the right place for things to land.

You know him best as the man who asked us all, as a people, to consider the coconut. Something we somehow did not discuss. The last time you were on the show, something that loomed so large in David Knight's mind. Well, wait a second, when was the last time? It was quite a while ago, right, Lin? All that jazz.

Well, I remember that. I wanna say it was 22? Yeah, I'm trying to remember that, right, Lin? All that jazz. Well, I remember that. I want to say it was 22. Yeah, that's not, I'm trying to remember that too. Cause like, did I have a kid? Yes, you had a kid. Was my kid maybe nine? So now I have seen, I mean, obviously I'm a big fan of a lot of your stuff.

Lin-Manuel Miranda. Let's say, our guest today here is Lin-Manuel Miranda. Hello. I love much of your work, but now I have seen Incanto and Moana four billion times because I have a young daughter. And I am now just so deep in the work there. Like I just think about it all the,

and very, very densely. I'll get a late night text of, you guys don't understand how well this is structured. Yes. And we'll be like, yeah, no, we know. And he's like, no, you don't understand. I've watched it six million times. If you watch, you don't talk about Bruno, right?

Like that many times, you do have, we don't talk about Bruno, so. Like that many times, you do have, we don't talk about Bruno, sorry. You know, you have to start just like thinking about every single moment of it. Sorry, Len, I know this is boring, but yes, anyway. Well, I guess that didn't come up last time. I probably was- When we did Musgra and Clements in 2020, which I feel like was when maybe

you started messaging with us that you'd been listening to the show. I feel like- Yes, that's probably right. It was in response to a lot of those episodes. But when we had recorded them on app, so we did not, we were in no way aware you were listening to the show. Yes, I'm aware that you were not aware.

But we're both so locked in to consider the coconut as a line. It's a great line. We have a lot to talk about today. My little David Foster Wallace nod. This is my question. Where did that come from? Was that where you thinking about considering the lobster? I mean, listen, you get a lot of materials David Foster Wallace nod? This is my question. Where did that come from? Was that where you're thinking about considering the lobster?

Well, I mean, listen, you get a lot of materials when you're learning about the world and the culture that you're writing about. And one was this document that was all of the different uses of the coconut. And so, yeah, I think I pulled, I mean, I'm a big fan of the David Foster Wallace essays. So I thought that would be a good opening line to... to, you know, introduce the verse where we're gonna use... we're gonna tell you all of the uses of the coconut in song. There's also a profundity to the simplicity and the directness of it.

To just be like, I'm gonna tell you the uses of the coconut, and the way I'm gonna open this door is just, consider the coconut. Consider the coconut. And I mean, it's fun because it's one, just really interesting how many uses one can get out of a coconut. Right, which is the point. And two, also like, man, is she gonna be staring at the water and like getting out of there?

Because it's like, it's coconut for dinner, it's coconut for breakfast. So we're re-litigating this? Yeah. He's a really good kid. She's a good kid, but right, it's, you know, the coconut is very, very crucial for the first act of Moana.

Their coconuts aren't working, they're getting the bad coconuts. Yeah, this is true. And then you got your whole little bad guy gang who... The Kakamora. The Kakamora wear the coconuts as armor. Which was giving Lost Boys energy, kind of. That's true. Yeah, I mean, I think it's as Fury Road inspired as it seems like it is.

Right, it's very Mad Max. But I'd say it's like half Fury Road, half Hook specifically. Something about the build of their ship looks like the Hook Lost Boys. That's a nice segue into it. Right? I'll take it. Yeah. The hideout.

Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing about that hideout is, and I mean, we may go in order, we may not, but like, it looks so fun in Never Never Land. It kind of, it's the thing that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie did by accident. When you get to the Foot Clan hideout and you're like, this looks dope. It's a connection.

There's video games and pool tables. Exactly. There's a half pipe. There's a half pipe. Yeah, well they have track. If I were a wayward kid, I would end up here. Our friend JD Amato, who you know, directed the My Brother, My Brother, Me TV show.

We, there are a couple other times in the last couple of years we've reached out to you and you've gone, maybe I do this, but I don't know. This and that. You know what it is, I felt so overprepared for all that jazz because I had been working on Fosse-Verdon and- Yes, you came in with a lot.

You came in with the script. I had, like, stuff and some of the movies, you guys pissed me. That's right. And so for the, you know, I just wanted to be prepped. I will say this. This is an issue we are starting to put up against, I'd say specifically with filmmakers, where we will reach out to people and they'll be like, I only want to come on if it's a movie I feel like I can talk about backwards and forwards, like I need to be this prepared.

And we're like, what have we done wrong in our framing of this show to make people think they need to be prepared to talk bullshit with us? Yeah, I mean, all I have is vibes, and I rewatched the movie recently this time. I did not come with source text. I just, like every kid who was 11 in 1991, this movie rocked my shit. Spielberg was really big.

Is really big for you. It's humongous. Is totemic. Reached out, I think gave you like first crack of just like, we settled on doing this anyone and you write back hook Right. It was just no question. It was hook finger pointed there JD had thrown out that he wanted to do hook and it wasn't just he said close encounters or hook Yeah, be clear. He did not he did not crack

Yeah, and we said well, you know and we were like we're gonna put you on close encounters Lynn wants hook and he was like, I can't believe I'm being bummed for Lynn We were like, we're gonna put you on close encounters. Lynn wants hook. And he was like, I can't believe I'm being bummed for Lynn. But the thing he immediately put his chip down on was, I insist that you guys talk about, and it's what I would have come prepared, loaded for bear to talk about,

is the 90s movie micro trend of the hideout that is a skate park. Oh yeah. Right, it's turtles. He was linking those two immediately. Sort of three ninjas kind of has that vibe, right? Like that early nineties, like it would be fun to be a kid and a ninja, like, at the same time.

And it's not quite the same thing, but I think Blankchick and Richie Rich both have this element of like, what if, like a perfect kid's play space that felt a little dangerous and humongous, all encompassing. It's levels. Levels. Yeah, right.

Which I think require skateboarding experts. I think of Kramer in Seinfeld when he starts adding levels to his apartment. It's a good, you know, levels is good. That's ambitious. I would say though that what these spaces all have in common is no parents allowed. No parents allowed. Yeah. All though, what these spaces all have in common is no parents allowed. No parents allowed.

Yeah. All right, so your relationship to Hook, well maybe your relationship to Spielberg first though. I don't know. Sure, I mean, I think you're probably with me here that like for me, if you wanted to make movies as a little kid, they'd say, oh you want to be the next Steven Spielberg.

It was literally shorthand for director. Yes. And for like, Wunderkind, right? Like this sort of like, yeah, he started young. Like he was a movie nerd and he got to, you know. But also I think especially in the nineties, if there's like a representation of a director in any other form of media.

Yeah, he was also playing himself as a lot of stuff. Very often. I think of him in- He was a personality. Yeah, he was also playing himself as a lot of stuff. Like, I think of him in... He was a personality. Yeah, he was in the Goonies Are Good Enough video, where Cyndi Loppet goes, Mr. Spielberg, help us out! And he goes, I don't know what to do. And you're like, first of all, the fact that that video

had both Nikolai Volkov, Andrei the Giant, and Steven Spielberg, and the entire cast of the Goonies. And it was like, they didn't quite know how videos worked yet, so they just do two videos that encapsulate the plot of the Goonies and play the song twice. I believe, uh, Rowdy Rowdy Piper and Captain Lobo— Like a lot of wrestlers are in there, right? Yeah. I have seen it.

The Goonies before my time, so I've always struggled. Like, hook a little bit more my time. Sure. The Goonies— Down here, it's your time. Yeah. Ha ha. Um, okay, soies. Down here, it's your time. Yeah. Okay, so yeah, all right.

So Spielberg on, right. The first director any kid learns about in our generation, essentially. Yeah, it's Spielberg. Oh, you wanna be Steven Spielberg in your love. Do you remember the first one you see? Like, are you hearing the name repeated before you're understanding who he is,

or were you already developing a relationship and then it's me who said it? In the same way that you'd hear West Side Story as synonymous with musicals. Spielberg was synonymous with the movies. I think for me, probably the first one I saw was ET. Which- Probably not in theaters. No, definitely on DHS.

And my grandfather owned a video store. So I remember- I don't think I knew that. Yeah, this is big. In like, upper Manhattan? No, in Puerto Rico. So when I'd go for the summers, I'd go hang out at Miranda Video and I would like see the different Jaws covers.

Like there was Jaws and then there were like the subsequent ones he didn't make. And then for some reason, I associate... The big thing you also need to know is my grandfather owned a video store, so I was just unsupervised watching movies all the time. And also my grandparents had cable and my parents didn't. One thing you also need to know is my grandfather owned a video store, so I was just unsupervised watching movies all the time. And also my grandparents had cable and my parents didn't. And so what was playing on… Was this a summer thing?

It was a summer thing. Okay. So like, what was playing constantly on HBO that those summers when I was a kid was Jaws 4. It was like Michael Caine and the shark following him to the thing. And also Richard Jenner's standup routine about how dumb Jaws 4 is. How the shark follows this one family, too. So, yeah, so I remember...

I have to ask, quickly. Were the VHSs dubbed, subtitled, or neither? A little bit of everything. Interesting. And usually they were just in English with Spanish subtitles. Yeah. And then my grandparents, sure this wasn't legal,

but they were always making copies, like with two VHSs on the movies in the back. And that's where I saw the really inappropriate stuff. Cause there was a porn section of the video store, like in the eighties video store. The old red curtains. And you would just hear those movies being dubbed in the back of the,

oh, my parents are gonna be really upset when they listen to this. You should, I think you should open a video store now. You should revive Miranda Video. Miranda Video? Mm-hmm. I mean. It's kind of physical media, you know,

it's getting hot again, it's sort of this cult thing. I think it'll be cool. And I think you should bring back the porn section. I think I'd get a lot of positive press. Listen, I never went, like it was back in think you should bring back the porn section. I get a lot of positive press. Listen, I never went, like it was back in the day, it was curtained off. There was a Double Dragon 2 console in the video store,

so I played a lot of Double Dragon 2. I watched that poor 4-bit girlfriend get punched so many, that's how the game starts. Punch the girlfriend, throw her over the shoulder, then you gotta go. So we have really ventured from my Spielberg- No, but this is good. This is good. This is good.

But so, Hook, 1991, you said you were 11? I was 11. So you saw this in the theater. I definitely saw this in the theaters. I also did. I was but five, but I still, I think, was still whatever, like locked in enough with, you know, whatever. I was gonna go see Hook, the Peter Pan movie, right?

You clearly, you wouldn't have, you would have been very smart. Well, I'm just, look, I'm gonna get this out of the way. He no likey Hook. I was gonna go see Hook, the Peter Pan movie. You clearly wouldn't have. You would've been very smart. No, I'm just like, I'm gonna get this out of the way. He no likey Hook. I don't like Hook. Okay. I struggle strongly with Hook. It's a polarizing film.

It's a tough movie. It's because... Yes. The parts that are good are so good, and it takes us a while to get there. So I... I didn't see it. And you share that opinion with Spielberg. I do, which has always been my defense. And I will say in the history of doing this show, right, we covered the second half of

Spielberg's career eight years ago. We're finally getting to this now. I've sort of like just taken strays at Hook over the years and been like, and obviously we all know Hook sucks. And every time I would do that, our listeners would get really angry and being like, what are you talking about? And what is this assumption? This is not the like norm opinion.

Which I feel like I grew up with my parents went to see hook. I was two, three when this came out. Yeah. He would have been like, yes. My parents definitely went on a date night to see it. When I'm the one child before my brother is born. And I just remember growing up in a household where hook was used as shorthand for like folly. And the thing I've sort of had to like work through in doing this series is realizing that I grew up in a weirdly anti Spielberg household. Right, not just Hook. They were generally a little skeptical.

But Hook is the turning point. Uh-huh, sure. It is. Like, my parents just still, and even recently, like, we had a family dinner, and I brought up, like, Lynn's coming on to do Hook, and they were like, God, that movie sucks. And it's like this, it's this very, like, raw thing for my parents. They still are like, man, we got a babysitter.

We went to see that in a hook. And they've just like, anytime they have liked a Spielberg movie since Hook, they say it almost begrudgingly. Wow. They're just like, it's weird how good Bridge of Spies is. And I'm like, it's not weird. It's not weird, he's Spielberg. But so I grew up in this house where Hook is just this like cloud.

I weirdly felt like I had Hook toys growing up and they'd just be like that movie sucks like they just walk by me so it was like not something that was like Presented to me. I'd see it at friends houses. Everyone else loved hook other friends would have the VHS Generations youth right certainly the film was got mixed reviews when it came out It was seen as a bit of a disappointment by grown-up critics, but not us kids. What was the movie he made just prior to this? So it's a weird point in his career,

because the movie he makes prior to this is Always, probably his most forgotten film. Have you even seen Always? I have not seen Always. Richard Dreyfus, Holly Hunter, Ghost of... Remake of Golden Hollywood Rom-Com. Ghost of Fire Pilot drama. I have this awareness of being aware

that Hook was over budget even when I was 11. Right, it became so... It became a thing of like, they're having trouble making Hook. And I remember being a kid anticipating, it would be like, sequel to Peter Pan, like let's go. Look, I'm not reading Premiere and Movie Line Magazine when I'm two, but by the time I'm seven and I'm reading it, they're still using Hook as shorthand.

Yeah, I'm definitely reading Entertainment Weekly by this point and aware that like, they brought in, they're like having trouble. Carrie Fisher's doing rewrites. I don't know if I was aware of that. Maybe you were. But I was aware that it was over budget and that people were worried about it.

Like by many accounts, this movie, The Ultimate Budget, was close to $80 million in 1991. And that's $80 million with a huge asterisk, which is Spielberg, the Borg. Spielberg, Hoffman, Williams, all for rent salaries. And Roberts. No, but those three, no salaries. Oh really? Right, the deal was they get zero upfront money and they get, was it 40% of first dollar earnings?

A lot of the money, the gross. JJ has it in the dossier, but break it down. It was an insane structure. So it was $80 million without paying the three biggest people. I think Roberts was paid a lot. Because she was newly hot stuff at the time. So I wanting to be this kind of like savvy,

wise movie kid was just like, yeah, we all know Hook sucks. My parents taught me that Hook sucks. You use Hook as shorthand for like failed 90s blockbuster. I'm actually flinching every time you say it. Yeah, just, you know, take it easy on our guest. Come on, he's a special guy. Had seen it piecemeal over the years many, many times.

Sure. But had like never really sat down and watched the whole thing. Then I feel like- Oh, you never saw it as a kid. No. Oh, wow. Then I feel-

Received wisdom. That is weird, it's weird. Yep. When I'm in my early 20s, my friend Jake makes some reference to Hook and I'm just like, Hook. And he's like, you didn't grow up with Hook? And I'm like, I actually don't think I've ever seen the whole thing all the way through. And he's like, we're watching Hook tonight.

We watch Hook. I'm just like, God. I remember having time in your 20s. Absolutely. And you would be like, you haven't seen this? Clear the next three hours. We're doing this now. It was also the era where Netflix was the only streaming service

and it had every movie. You just knew you could immediately go like this and pull hook up. Watched it that night was just like, this is completely missing me. Sure. I just don't get this. You don't have the kid grounding at all.

No, and I had, I feel- You don't have the thud butt at a formative time in your life. The world's biggest pin in thud butt. We'll talk thud butt. We'll talk thud butt. He's coming. We better talk thud butt. Oh, he's coming.

And was just like, I struggle with this thing. And then just went on making straight references. You've never liked Hook. It's never stuck to you. Three months ago, four months ago, it was playing at the Nighthawk Theater in Prospect Park. Lovely place. And I was like, we got this series coming.

I was there last night. Lynn's gonna come and do an episode. Yeah. I deserve, it deserves a proper reconsideration on a big screen. It was advertised as a 35 print. It ended up being a DCP. I went to a weekend matinee of Hook. I walk out, fuming. Fuming.

I go on Letterbox, I log it as half a star. Careful of the things you say, children will listen. I log it as half a star and immediately the whole blank you say, children will listen. I log it as half a star, and immediately the whole blank check text thread is like, Griffin, what are you doing? What point are you trying to make here? And I'm like, walking down the street, like, harumph, harumph, harumph. Yeah, you're fuming. Yes.

Now, admittedly, I had had dental surgery like 10 days earlier that had gone poorly, and the recovery was bad. Ben and I are exchanging a knowing look. Yes. I saw some other movies in that period that I liked, but I do think in a certain way where if you have a headache and then someone starts making a high pitch noise, it's going to hurt twice as hard. I was like, this movie has never worked for me, but when I'm in mouth pain, when

my whole skull hurts, I was like, please make it stop. Hand in fire and dental work don't mix great. The whole thing was just really rubbing against me. So then I gave it another rewatch. Sure. To prepare for... Correct. And I'm now just back to just like, yeah, I don't know. Well, all right. Like I'm not angry about it.

Let's close the book on you. Establish. Establish. Establish. Yes, all right. But that's my history with it. I am like most people my age, I'm a little younger than Lin, but like I say, I saw Hook as a kid and I was like, this movie rocks, it's got sword fighting in it,

it's got Rufio in it, like this is great. It is the only movie with Rufio in it. Unfortunately. Hoffman like made me laugh, me made me laugh, right? You know what I mean? I remember as I grew up learning that like Julia Roberts' performance in this was considered bad, and me me being like I don't get

I don't get that at all Like yeah, and then yeah, I grew up and hooks nostalgia has curdled for me slightly. There's things in it I don't like at all. I do think it's way too slow at the beginning. I think it is a fascinating I agree. Yeah, I think it is a fascinating like Spielberg text like it is a fascinating like Moment in his life on screen he I look you actually know Steven Spielberg I'm a little bit a little bit you've chatted with Steve Yeah, I don't know if you've ever talked hook with Steve, but I feel like he's usually fairly dismissive of it He's kind of like ah that, that didn't work. Right?

Like, I mean, like... Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I'm just going by his own doc. Like... He's just, yeah. But have you ever brought up to him, are you like, would it break... It would break my heart to tell him I like Hook and have him make a face.

No, no, no. It's not my... Also, it's like, I mean, if I have to list Spielberg favorites, it's not even that high up there, but... Of course not. The man has a... In the early Spielberg and where it landed on my life, again, and it's interesting to watch this as an 11 year old in the theater and interesting to watch it as a 45 year old father of two.

But the other micro trend that this falls into besides skate parks as club houses is dads who just don't have time for their gosh darn kids. That's cell phone! That's cell phone. I can't get... Is this the first cell phone movie? Because that became such shorthand for like, oh, he's a workaholic. This is 91.

Not a lot of people have cell phones. Not a lot of people have cell phones. It is an era that I actually think will be hard to explain and contextualize to younger generations. I couldn't even explain to my kids when I watched it with them, they're like, oh, their computer's not even in there. It used to be crazy that you had a cell phone. There is a 15-year period in family film where if a character takes out a cell phone,

the movie is basically saying he deserves to be shot in the street. This motherfucker doesn't look at his kids. Unless he learns a tough lesson. He doesn't know his kids' middle names. And physically holding a cell phone is the same as holding a Nazi Glock. Liar Liar is a perfect example. One of my favorite movies,

One Fine Day, which the entire plot is the two workaholics switch cell phones. Basically, the entire Disney live action Tim Allen canon, which was big for me, is all predicated on this guy spends too much time on his cell phone and then- He wears suspenders, he goes to an office,

he has his cell phone. He's a huge part of it. There's a baseball game and or dance recital that he is late to or doesn't even make it. They even had to struggle to justify the baseball game. Here's a Christmas series baseball game. It is one of the immediate things in Hooker. I'm like, why the fuck are they playing baseball in December?

The catcher is wearing a Santa Claus beard it's a Christmas season This movie's doing so much we don't really know where they are in America before they go to London But like if they're in the Northeast, they should not be playing baseball in December. It's very cold. It's called. Yeah. Okay anyway Yes, I watch it now and I'm like, it's kind of a movie that's similar to me. There's other kids' movies like this where I'm like, kids do like this movie, as we have discussed it.

Did you watch it with your daughter? No, no, she would be baffled by this. She's a little too young for this movie. Did you watch it with your children? I watched it with my kids. Had they seen it before the first time? No, they've seen it once, yeah. Okay. And actually, I saw it way back when and they basically... Had they seen it before it was the first time? Uh, no. They've never, they've seen it once. Yeah. Okay.

And actually I saw it way back when we decided we were doing this. I was like, I'm, so this was like last summer, last fall. It was scheduled very far. It's taken us a long time to get here. Um, but yeah, I watched it with them and they were so into Neverland. It takes a long time to get to Neverland. It takes a full 35, 40 minutes. It's half hour to Neverland and they're still in pirate land for the first 20 minutes,

and it's 52 minutes till they meet the Lost Boys. Which is, you know, and beyond that, which, you know, the first half hour of this movie, where it's just Spielberg being like, I'm such a workaholic, and I'm like, you're making a movie about Peter Pan for children, my friend, this movie is rated PG, like children are coming to see it, they don't care about your cellphone, like, you're making a movie about Peter Pan for children, my friend. This movie is rated PG. Like children are coming to see it.

They don't care about your cell phone. Like, is my take. Now, again, kids like this movie. But then just like the sort of like the softness and the kind of like emotional, like it feels too dad to me in a way sometimes. I'm like, we need more fun. We need more like kid energy in this and less like sad dad energy in it. But it did also kind of work on me as a bit of a, in this and less like sad dad energy in it.

But it did also kind of work on me as a bit of a, as a bit of a sad dad. You know what I mean? Like I'm watching it now and I'm like, and he's talking about his happy place for all that. I'm like, this isn't gonna not get me, you know, come on. Yeah, see, it's, it's so doesn't get me. But I also will say that like watching it again this morning

with my mouth in good condition, a balanced set of teeth. I was digging into more the weird messiness of how much this movie is him at odds. And sort of like a crossroads point in his career. I think the movie, I don't want to say the movie suffers because of that. I think the movie is basically a monument to him being in this like, I don't know. And there's a quote that JJ pulled up in the dossier that I'm like, that's the whole fucking movie for me now. And upon reading that I'm a little more engaged with watching the film, but your

question of where he's coming from, right? Just to like snapshot it. He has this insane dominant run of blockbusters. Then he has this eights period that's very much him trying to like grow up and make serious movies. He wants to win an Oscar. Clearly. And people are just like, get over it. Right? There's this like weird wave of people being like Spielberg's a little boy who makes theme park rides. And he's like, great, I'll make serious movies. And they're like, go back to making your theme park rides.

Who are you kidding? And the one part of it that's weird for me, the existence of hook is that like hook kind of makes sense to me as him being like, fine, I'll go back to doing what you guys want out of me had he not just made last crusade, like that's the other part of the puzzle, right? Which is the movie before all right. Is that like in between temple of doom and last crusade, he does color purple. He other part of the puzzle. Right. Which is the movie before Always. Right, is that like in between Temple of Doom and Last Crusade, he does Color Purple, he does Empire of the Sun,

he goes through the whole Twilight Zone calamity, he has his first child, he makes Always, which is like not a serious movie, but it is ostensibly trying to be a movie for grownups. Sure, like a soft grownup movie, like drama. But he like comes back and does another Indiana Jones that is a big hit and that people like, and is him kind of doing the Spielberg roller coaster again.

So it always feels weird to me. Man, and Last Crusade is such a good roller coaster. I love Last Crusade. It's my kid's favorite Indiana Jones. And it's him being like, I'm still good at this, by the way, and everyone's like, yes, you are. I think, and I think that's yes you are. What? I think... And I think that's why I was so excited

to just going back in time. That's why I was so excited to see Hook in the theater, because I had seen Last Crusade on a thousand sleepovers with my friends. The guy does action. Yes, yes. This was probably your first theatrical. Yeah, probably. Yeah, so that's huge.

Yeah. But like right after this, which has its whole like the press is having a field day over this movie, the expectations for it were basically either this is the biggest movie of all time or it's a disappointment. And you read like the immediate press and they're all sort of like, well, it's a hit, but it's not a mega hit. And he's at the sort of odd like junction point. And then two years later, he does Jurassic Park

and Schindler's List in the same year. Right. Right, just the most dominant shit. Take that, take that, all time. Where I'm like. It is a, it's a real, you know, sort of like, it's over. He has nothing left to prove after that. And Hook, he still has stuff to prove.

Right. And he's not quite getting there. If it went straight from Hook to Schindler, I'd be like, okay, so he's like, you know what, that's past. I'm not doing that kind of thing anymore. I've grown up. Here's my kind of movie. But the fact that he does Jurassic in the same year,

and he's like, I can still knock this out of the fucking park if I want to. You want me to build a roller coaster, I'll build a roller coaster. I mean, it's hard for kids to understand now, but at that time, when you found out Spielberg was directing Jurassic Park, Jurassic Park was such a hit book.

Like, sixth graders were carrying around Jurassic Park when I was in sixth grade, and everyone was like, how are they gonna do the dinosaur? Like, literally, this is not possible, because they'll never make them look real. And so it was like, he delivered on that in the most incredible way possible.

And then the movie still just fucking rips. But he actually did the like it was like it's hard to overstate how much sure as part felt like you were watching the impossible happen in 1992. I mean, is that right? That's right. But he has talked about the fact that Jurassic was kind of an impersonal movie for him, and it's the reason he did Lost World where he's otherwise been protective

about not trying to do sequels. He had the agreement with George, where he had to do the Indiana Jones sequels, but otherwise he's always kind of backed off. And he was just like, look, Jurassic Park was me just like having fun. Yeah, just doing a good time. Look, Hook is about-

Last Crusade are both very personal in our hands of- Hook is about a child who became a man, you know, going to war with a man who is a child who is basically like, come be a child. I only want to, you know, I want us to be children again and fight and play and Peter, you know, like it is, it is his, it an ego like doing battle on screen.

Like it is the most psychologically rich shit. And yet Spielberg is kind of like, oh, the sets were too big. And I should have made it a musical. And like, you know, Julia Roberts was getting on my nerves. You know what I mean? He won't acknowledge this. I read about that. This was almost a musical that there were these John Williams, Leslie Brickus tunes that got cut.

I mean, is this like I'll do anything level? This was a musical got cut. I don't know, because I'll do anything. They filmed the musical. I've seen the sequences, was a musical got cut? I don't know, because I'll do anything they filmed the musical. Have you seen? The sequences, right? The musical cut of all the rest? No.

Hey, Lynn, you might get an interesting email at the end of this. Oh, yes! It's quite interesting. Yeah, they were... I don't mind the non-musical version of that movie, but... They were fully recorded, mixed, rehearsed, and then cut. They were never filmed. Right, right.

I think there was recently a limited CD reissue where the third disc was the tracks. But like, as JJ dug up, one of the songs was supposed to be an older Wendy and they had gotten Julie Andrews to record it and Maggie Smith was going to lip sync Julie Andrews singing John Williams Williams musical numbers. Oh my god, we could have had it all. It got that far along. It's fascinating to consider. And he basically welched, like, I think a month before film.

So, Steven Spielberg has always loved Peter Pan. There is the sequence in E.T., right, where Peter Pan's being read to the children, right? Yes, yes. But he's also just like, the idea of Peter Pan's being read to the children, right? Peter Pan? Yes, but he's also just like, the idea of Peter Pan on screen being the depiction of flight is this sort of like leveling up in the imagination. Anytime anyone flies in a movie, it's riffing on Peter Pan.

E.T. flying on the bike is riffing on Peter Pan. He has always said his mother is Peter Pan to him. And obviously if you've seen the Fableman's, like that makes sense, the sort of like, she seems to have the energy of this kind of like fairy woman, right? This kind of delightful musical person who would read him Peter Pan and all that. With a pixie haircut and yeah.

Yes. And then of course, as Spielberg becomes a famous filmmaker, everyone's like, this is Peter Pan. This is the boy who won't grow up, right? It's the easiest thing to tag him with. So in 1984, news breaks, Steven Spielberg will be making a live adaptation of Peter Pan in London. No one has ever done a Peter Pan movie at this point, since like the silent era.

Like obviously this is the Disney film, but no one's done a live action Peter Pan. Yes. His quote was, there has never been a live action picture except in 1924 silent version. This is the first real motion picture version of Peter Pan and I'm really excited about it. You will believe a boy can fly. Right that's basically his pitch is like the Disney one is the definitive one if I can pull this off in live action and pull off the impossible I make the definitive version of this story which is insane to consider now where there's a new Peter Pan movie every 24 months. Like, post-Hook, it has not stopped. Hoffman is attached as Captain Hook

pretty much from the beginning. Michael Jackson is heavily interested in playing Peter Pan. He really wants to do it. Michael Jackson, as people know, may have had a bit of a thing about Peter Pan. You might guys, you know, they had the Neverland Ranch and so on and so forth.

Spielberg waves him off. Supposedly, Michael Jackson hired a witch doctor to cast a curse on him. That is like one of the many Michael Jackson stories that's out there that may or may not be true. Who knows? Spielberg's response in an interview was, what else is new? But in 1985, I'm sorry, it was this is bizarre, but what else is new? Wowie.

Spielberg has a son in 1985, and Spielberg says his appetite for Peter Pan goes away once this happens. I think partly because making it was going to be this giant London production, like, you know, whatever, like with sets and shit, where he's just like, I don't have time. I don't want to be away from my child. I want to, right, I want to be with my kid, Max, his first kid. With Amy Irving. With Amy Irving, a friend of the show.

And past and future guests. We'll get her back, right? We'll get her back. And so Peter Pan goes away. But there's the other part of it. Backburnered all the way to the back. He's like, this has ended my permanent adolescence. A child is born, I look at it,

suddenly I have responsibility in the world. And he sort of talked about the- It's Peter Banning's happy thought. Basically. Yes. Yes. Yes. Where he's just like, immediately I found myself becoming my parents and the way I told myself I would never be, the transformation happened, I couldn't stop it. I no longer connected to Peter Pan as a character.

So, Jim V. Hart, who is one of the credit screenwriters on this movie, an interesting guy, like his career is interesting, he picks up the project as, you know, writing it and shifts it to what Hook is, which is sort of a sequel to Peter Pan, right? Like what if Peter Pan grew up? What if Captain Hook wasn't dead? Like what if Captain Hook, you know, was merely lurking in the crocodile and then escaped? I don't know.

They don't really get into it, do they? It was, look, it's a good kid logic pitch where his little son draws a picture, Captain Hook and the crocodile, and he's like, what's that? And as the son's describing it, he's like, it's Captain Hook and the crocodile, but the crocodile didn't actually eat Captain Hook,

Captain Hook got away. And he goes like, ping, what if Captain Hook's still alive? Somehow Captain Hook has returned. Nick Castle, who famously plays Michael Myers in Halloween. But there's also like a, how would you describe him, Griff? Like a sort of low to mid-budget genre filmmaker at this point. I just want to call out.

Makes the last Starfighter, makes TAP. Yes, I just want to call out Hart. It's a two-pronged thing. There's the what if Hook survived? Yeah. And then he's like a year or two later, his son goes daddy, what happens to Peter Pan when he grows up?

And he's like, he doesn't. And he's like, well, what if he did? And then he's like, are you a fucking executive song? I'm buying in the room. Yes, truly. Right. Right. Then immediately.

500 grand up front. I locked up the rights. That's a good fucking hook. You're asking big questions. Yes, Nick Castle is... He comes aboard. Interesting genre figure who obviously has the roots and the carpenter stuff, but then does last Starfighter film.

I adore. But kind of was one of these guys who was always like making movies that felt like they should have been huge hits, but always stayed a little cult. Were never making... There were never bombs, but he was never totally crossing over. Pictures at this point ended up at Sony TriStar. And Mike Medavoy, who was Spielberg's first agent,

comes on as a producer and Spielberg is basically brought in to displace Castle. Castle's bought out, given 500 grand to leave the project because Robin Williams and Dustin Hoffman want Steven Spielberg. Like they know he had sniffed this project before they obviously want Steven Spielberg. It's kind of the beginning of the mega packaging where they were just like what if we put all our biggest clients on this they go to Spielberg he's like I would never want to be responsible for another director getting kicked off a project. They're like too late. Well,

great news I fired him a week ago it's yours. They basically set it up so that they were just like, the toes have already been stepped on, my man. You can't stop this. And so Spielberg's coming aboard a project that isn't his project exactly. He wanted to make Peter Pan. At this point, it's now evolved into the Peter Pan sequel concept, right?

And he's like, that's a good idea for a movie. I'm not sure it's my idea for a movie, but okay. And he brings in Mallyia Scotch-Marmo, the other screenplay writer here, who reshapes the character of Hook, I guess. Carrie Fisher famously did a lot of rewriting. I think a lot of other people did too. Hoffman had basically always been a board.

Spielberg had almost made Rain Man with him a while ago, so I guess they'd sort of been circling each other. He was so close to doing Rain Man, but was contractually obligated to do Indie 3. And unsurprisingly, Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise had a lot of script notes, and the development of that movie took a long time. So it was all three of them together working on it,

and Spielberg had his moment where it's like, if I haven't started filming Rain Man by this date, I will not be able to then finish in time to go do Indie. And he left Rain Man and then watches someone else win Best Picture and Best Director. True. Hoffman. Which probably has to get to him a little bit.

Spielberg, Hoffman, Williams all declined salaries, as you say, instead they're gonna split 40% of the gross from the movie. Which is a lot of money. But they get, there's a weird structure where it's like, they get 40% of the first 200 million and then it goes back to Sony and then they get everything after that.

Who cares? Julia Roberts, who's 24 years old. See, we saw Robin Williams and Justin Bieber. Deadline. Yeah, deadline. Julia Roberts is only 24 years old. Pretty Woman obviously came out a year before her. A thing that is insane to consider. She had just gone through a very scandalous tabloid-y breakup

with Kiefer Sutherland, where she supposedly left him at the altar. I think in actuality, she called off the wedding a few days before. JJ has four pages of notes devoted to the fact that she actually broke off the marriage three days before the wedding, not at the altar. Fair enough. Vindication.

It's the most strange I've ever done in days. I think because Julia Roberts has become this very sort of gentle celebrity, like people are just like, yeah, Julia Roberts is chill. She's like been married for a zillion years. She kind of lives in San Francisco doing it. It is hard for younger people to remember, to know how much insane scrutiny she was under

in the early 90s. Like the most insane press bullshit around her at all times. She is 24. She's already been nominated for two Academy Awards. She's the biggest female star in Hollywood. She's already had like relationship drama that's burning up the tabloids. Yeah, she was in a real like-

Is this her only Spielberg movie? Certainly, I think they had, they did not enjoy working together. the tabloids. Yeah. She was in a real like... Is this her old Spielberg movie? Certainly. I think they had, they did not enjoy working together. I think now they are like, we were both just not, it's too bad. You know, it's not like they still hate each other. Like they talk about it like this sort of like, hey man, we were both in bad places and it just wasn't working. And of course, almost all of her footage is just on a blue screen with nobody around her.

Which must have been a huge bummer. Like once in a while, I think Robin Williams would come to sort of do lines with her, but that's about it. I think the biggest nod to that era that you see in the movie is there's just these random cutaways of her just grinning that beautiful pretty woman smile. And it's like, you almost can hear the exec be like, where's the smile?

Do the move. Do the move. Yeah. Because, you know can hear the exec be like, -"Where's the smile?" -"Do the move." Do the move. Because, you know, obviously she sold a lot of tickets on that dazzling, and her incredible performance in Pretty Woman. But she said basically... But it feels cut in. Like, there'll be like, the Lost Boys will be playing,

and then they'll just cut to the... They're obviously like... She doesn't have a, yes, a sort of, right, role in this film in a weird sort of a way. You know, like... It's a weird Eponini, role in this film in a weird sort of a way. You know, like... It's a weird, epinene-y... Like, she does. She does have...

She's there, and she's crucial. But she's playing this weird, unrequited love. It's, she's speaking the unspoken subtext of Tinkerbell and Peter Pan, which is that Tinkerbell is jealous of Wendy. But like, it's now these monologues. It's now these monologues and her grind fully sized and putting on essentially a wedding dress to talk to Peter Pan Pan where you're sort of like, we already knew this. We didn't quite need it spoken about.

It needs to be that overstated because you've hired Julia Roberts to do it. Like now you need to justify why she's the third name above the title. It's the equivalent of like, well, if she's singing in it, she's got to have a second act solo. That scene is her second act solo that they wrote because Julie Roberts is playing the part. The scene of her getting big for four minutes feels like her being like, can I have one scene where I stand on a set?

With a person. In front of a person and make eye contact. Just a girl in front of a boy. Right, she basically was like, Hoffman did off camera for me one time, Robin did it a couple times. I was mostly in a harness, surrounded by crew guys in front of a blue screen. I was mostly in a harness surrounded by crew

guys in front of a blue screen. As Spielberg put it at the time, this is 1991, her personal life fell apart and she reported to work on the same weekend. It was a bad time for her and under those highly charged emotional conditions she was a pro. But in 99, Roberts did complain about Spielberg calling him a turncoat. Said that he basically didn't like defend her in the press enough, I think. I think she was getting so much shit and she wanted a little bit more backup from him. She didn't like what you actually said.

She didn't like that his line became like, it was a bad time for us to work together. Yeah, and she was going through a lot of shit. So under those circumstances, she did fine. It's true, it's a bit backhanded. I don't know, man. They figured it out. Everyone's doing fine.

They're all rich, they're all successful. They all have Oscar. Everyone's okay. Because even 1999 Julia Roberts is different from like 2009, you know, like she still hasn't won her Oscar yet. She's still like just sort of putting this turnaround, you know, anyway.

Can I call out my favorite quote that JJ found here? New York Times interview when the movie is about to come out. Uh, Spielberg says, I guess I had to get a little older to see that I wasn't done regressing. I've given up trying to be Martin Scorsese, Kurosawa or David Lean. Maybe this film is about my finally growing up. I guess I've given up avoiding me. Everything I find textually interesting about this movie is this feeling of him being like, I guess you've given up avoiding me. Everything I find textually interesting about this movie

is this feeling of him being like, I guess you've got me figured out. Ah, that's interesting. Right? Like him sort of being backed in the corner, and it's like, I guess you're everything I say I am. But you know what's fun? I mean, when I think about the parts I love in this movie, it's none of that.

And again, like, sometimes you have to wait a bit to get to these good parts, but like, man, the wonder he finds in Never Never Land when we finally get to the Lost Boys. And the other thing I just want to call out is the fact that, like, it's pretty much all white people until Never Never Land. True.

And that's the other thing that I think is so incredible about this movie, is that, like, when he creates joy and, like, fun personified, suddenly the rest of the world is allowed to be in the movie. And there's Hispanic kids and Black kids and Asian kids, and we have an Asian leader of the Lost Boys in Dante Bosco as Rufio. Um, and it explodes in color in every single sense. And that is, I mean, again, like, it is hard to overstate how much Rufio meant to kids.

I wonder how much he knew. Like, I spill, like, do you, cause it does feel conscious in the movie that like the lot of lost boys are kids of color. Especially when you consider when in the scene in the, at the fundraiser when they're honoring Wendy, all these old white men stand up. Right.

And are like, you raised me, Wendy. You raised me, Wendy. And then we go to the real Never Neverland, and they're, you know, the United Colors of Benetton. And you're like, well, when did, when did Neverland start letting us in? Is that what kind of felt? Dante Basco, I'll read his quote.

So he was from, you know, he was from basically like Compton. He was from California. Well, he was like, I'm a, I was adjacent to Compton. Sure, okay, fine. I think, you know, I'm not, but like he, he says that like he grew up around like gangs and friends, you know, friends and gangs. Like there were things about The Lost Boys

that resonated for him as a young, I mean, how old is he in this film? Like 14, something like that? He only auditioned one time and then he read on tape and then he met Mieczla Spielberg and apparently Spielberg said out of all the kids he saw, Dombasco is the only kid who scared him, which is a great, like, he does have, like, I mean,

it's the, I think it's an incredible performance and I think that... He's incredible. Rufio became something of a sort of, like you're saying, like, you know, folk hero to kids our age. I think Rufio is 50% of this movie having any stickiness in any legacy. But you watch it as an adult. Because as a kid, I was like, oh, Rufio's tough and scary and interesting.

And like, you know, then at the end he dies and you're like, oh, this is moving. As an adult, you watch it and you're like, this poor kid, it's such an emotional, we'll get into it. But just like all the emotions of like the dad left and his back, like the way he loves Peter and resents him. Absolutely. He plays it so well. He's a great, I mean, I love Dante Basco.

I mean, to me, that's one of the great moments in the films when he draws that line, it's me or the pan and then, you know, I mean, when I think back on this movie, if you were to sum this movie up in one sentence, it would be, there you are, Peter. Like that's the moment. And then John Williams comes in with that music

and they all crossed the line. I mean, like, I'm like, why the fuck am I crying? The fact that he later got to be Zuko and have this sort of like lovely second act to his career is so great. I mean, I love Avatar the Last Airbender and all that, but he's just amazing in this. The reason I call out the Compton adjacent thing

is because he made this point of being like, I wasn't in gangs, but I grew up next to kids who were in gangs. Like he has this right balance of just sort of like, I'm not a tough kid, but I understand what tough kids are, which maybe makes me the right amount of scary for a Spielberg, Peter Pan movie. And also has that vulnerability.

I mean... And also, I think, again, like, that final battle between the Lost Boys and the pirates is also what doesn't work about this movie to me, is that like, you never quite understand the rules of death and consequences in Neverland. It's like, the Lost Boys are doing Home Alone and they're doing the Barbie Beach fight.

They have a chicken egg lane. And the pirates have guns and knives. And like, by the way, like, painted ladies for the record. Like, I did not catch Smee being like a friend to all the painted ladies in town the first time I watched this movie. Smeehorny. Like, they're adults and they're killing motherfuckers. It's not catched me being like a friend to all the painted ladies in town the first time I watched this movie. Like, they're adults and they're killing motherfuckers.

And everyone else is, like, the Lost Boys are throwing eggs. And so when Rufio dies, you're like, wait, that can happen? Right, right, the Lost Boys can die? Is this not just like an eternal play? But it also happens very late. Look, I don't want to be like nitpicky, but this is like a chorus thing. I do't want to be, like, nitpicky, but this is, like, a core thing. I do. To be fair, Peter Pan has this oddness to it as well.

Like, the core text that is Peter Pan. But I'm pulling at this only because you presented it. It is a core issue I have with this movie, which is, like, I do not understand the way that Neverland operates. I agree. No, I think it is, like, he has two giant sets, right? There's like the pirate ship and the docks. And then you're like, this is Pirate Land

and this is the Lost Boys hideout. And I'm like, what's happening in between them and what is the relationship to each other? Just, I don't need like hard brass answers. But you're thinking you're like an adult. It's a fairy story. Kids don't care about rules. We're happy to fly with us.

I mean, also Peter Pan is very strictly a fairy story of like, yeah, there's the pirates, there's Tiger Lily, which this movie cleverly is just like, we're gonna brush by that. They reference it, but they don't go there. Yes, there's the Lost Boys. Like, how do you get there? Second, start on the right, fly on to...

It's all just like kid logic. The whole thing of Neverland is kid logic. But you're right, one of the things that makes the film squishy and not quite certainly work for you is that like adult logic comes into it. And you have grown people from all over the world entering. And you have grown people from all over the world entering. Yes.

But they have to let it go. And it's a half hour of set up from grown-up land. Yes. I'm also not asking for like an explanation of the municipality of like Neverland. That's why Hook is a good character because he is a kid's impression of a grownup. He's not a real grownup. He's a cartoon character.

Yes. And like, it's like one of those Star Trek episodes on the holodeck where like the holodeck comes to life where they're like, I'm Moriarty? What's my purpose? I just exist in opposition to someone? Like, that's not a real person, right? Like, Captain Hook is just,

and the whole thing with Peter Pan is, as Lin knows, and I'm sure you guys know, classically, the same actor plays Wendy's father in Hook. And it's this insane Freudian shit, like baked into Peter Pan. The only movie that ever did it was the PJ Hogan movie had Jason Isaacs do it, which I always loved. They actually obeyed that rule.

And I know, I assume it's partly just theatrical convention of like, well, we need this actor to do more than one thing, right? Like, you know, yeah, we don't want to cast two people. But that hook is this kind of dark side, right, of grownupness. Like, that she goes to this place where her dad is suddenly the mean villain But that Hook is this kind of dark side, right, of grown-upness. Like, that she goes to this, you know, place where her dad is suddenly the mean villain who wants to, I guess, stop everyone and having fun.

Right, exactly. But that, like, the concept of Hook is so clever, of like, Peter Pan's gone and Captain Hook's like, what do I do? I'm fucking stuck here? Like, just being Captain Hook against nobody? This blows! Like, where's Peter Pan? Like, I exist only to fight Peter Pan. And, like, he just needs to, like, finish this hero's journey

or villain's journey or whatever. It's so sad. I think the other squishy thing for me in this movie, and it really stuck... It was weird to me when I first saw it, and it's even weirder now. And I did a little reading on this, and I understand why they did it, but apparently, Jay and Barry wrote in a later story

that Peter Pan ran away from home as an infant, which makes... Which is in this movie. You see, like, the carriage running away. Yeah. Oh, man, but the things we could have had if they hadn't done that, because it's the part that strains the most credul—

Like, every parent goes and gets the stroller back, and you get your— Like, no child has ever run away from home from being a baby helpless in a carriage that rolls away. Like, that just— It doesn't make sense in a literal or metaphorical sense. It doesn't make a static sense. If Peter Pan had actually been a ten-year-old kid who ran away from home to become Peter Pan... Yes, to avoid puberty. To not grow up.

It needs to be a choice. That's the problem. It needs to be a choice. A baby cannot push his own carriage away. He sure doesn't in this movie. I get to that whole extended sequence, right? That basically starts with that through to, like, him seeing Gwyneth Paltrow for the first time. As we all do at some point in our lives.

We all remember. We will all be tempted by Gwyneth Paltrow. He imprints upon her like a fucking twilight. He's just like, I'm calling dibs on that baby. I'm really gonna kiss her. Move over, grandma. Yeah, yeah. But like that through to what you said is like the thesis of the movie, of having the moment where he sees his son and he's like, this is why I wanted to grow up, right? I'm like, this should be the core of the movie.

And in a certain way, I think this sequence has the most power. And yet I think it's basically botching every part of what it's trying to say. And it starts with what you said where it's just like two adults being like, and then he's going to go to business school and this and that. And I'm like, I'm locked. Your baby rolled away. This is the thing. I'm so locked into that idea. Like that is something. It should just be a kid you're saying, you know, it's a little weird that it's a baby.

You might be surprised to hear that that is a thing I relate to very strongly. Of being a child and hearing adults be like, and when you're a grownup, you'll do this. I mean, being like, fuck you. I'm out. But the second it's like, I'm a baby, and I remember hearing them say that, so I magically willed my stroller away until Tinkerbell came and flew me over.

And again, I think it comes out of a fidelity to a J.M. Barrie text, but that's the other thing that gnaws at you while you're watching it. You're like, your grandmother's name was Wendy Darling, and you've never questioned... And the movie starts with him watching his daughter playing Wendy Darling in a play. There's no examination of the like, so how are we... Did Jen and Barry are neighbors?

Right, here's another thing I find super fucking smushy. So he's doing that, right? Take her belt flyers him over. He meets Wendy. He goes back and visits her. She becomes an old lady. He falls in love with Gwyneth Paltrow. He's like, I gotta stay here.

Then it basically hard cuts to he's Robin Williams with the suspenders in the delivery room looking at the baby and going, here we go. This is why I want to be a grownup. What happens in between those two points? When does he stop remembering that he's Peter Pan? She says like he doesn't remember anything before he's 12 years old. But you're telling me that he like jumps through the window

when he's 12, sees this 12 year old is like, yes, please. Erase my memory. Kind of. You adopt me, raise me next to your granddaughter. By the way, I just want to restate, dibs. No one else can date her. They date all the way through having their first child, and then he's like, there we go. This is why I'm here. Yeah, I also, I mean, I rub up against logic of like,

if they took him away when he was a baby, how'd he grow up in Never Neverland? That's right. Why couldn't he have just gone away at the age when he'd be Peter Pan? That's always been the Peter Pan logic. Which as you said, like maybe the J.M. Berry thing starts with him being a baby. That's a good like note that other people came up with when they readapted it. To be like, oh, it's actually better if he stays the age he ran away at. That's the whole point.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steven Spielberg, just to finish out the sort of context here. This film was supposed to take 76 days to shoot. It took 116, so way, way, way over production. It was supposed to be like 40, and then it ended up somewhere between 60 and 80. It's this era for Spielberg, I think, where he's too famous.

People come visit at the set. Obviously, there's all the celebrity cameos in it. It kind of, and he builds these crazy sets. Although Glenn Close is legit great as that one pirate. She acts. I mean, like, she's doing that. Um, but, uh, like, I think people... He has these sets. She's really funny. People are swinging by.

Come see this fucking crazy set, right? I mean, you're saying you see the Lost Boys lair, and you're like, I want to hang out there. This movie looks like the best like theme park walkthrough attraction of all time. And it does feel like he just basically half of every day was a party where he would give people tours and be like, don't you wanna go down the slide?

The boat, it's the Jolly Roger cost a million and a half dollars is the most expensive like thing ever built in a Steven Spielberg movie. Tom Cruise, Demi Moore, Whoopi Goldberg, Michelle Pfeiffer, Warren Beatty, Annette Benning, Mel Gibson, Prince and the Queen of Jordan, among the people who visited this. I'm just like, no wonder he's getting distracted. No wonder things are taking too long.

He's too kind of wrapped up in this madness. And to touch on the musical thing, as we said, there is five to eight songs that Williams writes with Leslie Bricus, is that it? Leslie Bricus, yeah. Who is that? I don't really know. Leslie Bricus.

Who's the lyricist, honestly. Yes, the lyricist. Oh man, I'm gonna forget. But Leslie Bricus wrote a lot for the theater. He did, I'm seeing here Dr. Doolittle, like Talk to the Animals, stuff like that. Goodbye Mr. Chips, The Pure Imagination and the Candyman from Louie Wonka. So a lot of movie musical stuff.

Oh, it was like Partners with Anthony Newley. Right, so Spielberg basically chickens out, he says. Obviously he's always wanted to make a musical, he finally does it fucking 30 years later with West Side Story, but my guess is he's kind of like, if I'm going to make a musical, I really, really want it to be like something where I'm fully invested. And maybe these songs feel like more of like an add on. And he's just like, I can't deal with it.

Like, I mean, it's already a lot of movie without it being a musical. It's only 20 minutes long, which is insane. But when you watch the theatrical cut of I'll Do Anything, you have the thought, how could songs possibly fit into this, right? And when you watch the cut that you may or may not receive a Google Drive link to after this episode, you're like, oh, they fit in oddly. This doesn't, like, solve the movie. This is very weird and uncanny to watch, right?

Hook does feel to me like a musical that the songs were cut out of. Like, I'm like, everything in its tone and its stylization and its level of performance and even just sort of like, it feels weirdly stage-bound, even though it has these ginormous sets. They are sets. Right, and it's sort of like two big locations that you're ping-ponging back and forth

through where you're watching people jump around these like jungle gyms. One of my favorite scenes in the movie in terms of just like Spielberg operating on Master level of visual storytelling is when hook is being introduced where the hook is on the pillow Moving through the set and all the pirates are going like hook hook, you know And like, you know the music starts to go crazy and then like we go and he comes out, you know It's you're just like, right.

Spook was really good at that. I like that sequence. I like the children. Yes. Obviously my favorite image in the whole movie is just the fucking hook on the window. Those feel like musical sequences without a song being sung. Right. Right. You know, by the way, like barriers to entry for younger kids watching this. That looks like poltergeist when those blankets come off those kids. That that that whole part is I think I loved it. The thing that freaked me out as a kid, I remember,

is the nannies screaming, the children, the children, like when they get home. Yeah. It's a little like unnerving. So the first half hour of this movie, like we're getting into Hook, Peter Banning, he's a workaholic lawyer. Cell phone.

He's got this fucking cell phone. Right, he can quick draw better than anybody. These are the real pirates. The gorgeous and charming Carolyn Griddle, who's really good in this movie. She doesn't have much to do, but when she's crying at the end, she's so involving. I agree. Later reused in Schindler's List as Mrs. Schindler. Is his wife. They have two kids. Charlie Cosmo obviously is the door of the door of Jack Banning. Another MVP of this movie. I, however, love little Amber Scott.

I don't really know if she ever did anything else, but she's so cute. Maggie, the little kid. When she sings the song and she, yeah. Which is also the same melody as A Penny for Your Thoughts from Waiting for Gov'ment. Oh. A penny for your thoughts. That's why we have Mr. Miranda on the show.

Die for your dreams. It also, look, it feels like Kissing Cousins with Somewhere Out There as well, coming out of the Spielberg system. Yes. Maggie has the incredible insult, you need a mother very, very badly. She really puts the mustard on that line.

I think I just have a kid with her energy. Maybe that's why I'm, but he's a workaholic. Then I also want to speak up for Charlie Corzine, who by the way, he left the business, he's a lawyer now. Yes. And he is so good in this. And he was also in Dick Tracy. He's the kid.

He's the kid. And he's great in Dick Tracy. He's great in Dick Tracy. He's the kid. He's the kid. And he's great in Dick Tracy. He's great in Dick Tracy. He's also really good in Can't Hardly Wait. Yes, he is. His last role, I think. He had like an incredible run. He's just got a great face.

He's just got a great kid, 90s kid face. He's what a 90s kid looks like to me. He's the ultimate 90s kid. Yeah, but this was, this movie was festooned with our favorite child actors. I want to point out Jason Fisher, who is like just one of the Lost Boys, but he was also the Kid and the Witches. Right, right, right.

And he was DeMar's son in Parenthood, which is what I remember, when he lost his retainer and like flipped out. Those are his three roles. That guy was three and out. Those are his three roles. But he was great in all of those. He's great, yeah, yeah, yeah. God, Charlie Cosmo had What About Bob as well.

Oh, yeah. He was just on a heater. You know, I did Little League Baseball. Did you do Little League Baseball? I was forced. Exactly. Basically at hook point. I just like, so like I think Charlie's like

little baseball obsession. That's what it felt like, really. Yes. I was just like, yeah, this is me. You know, like I am, right. I don't know, I identified very strongly with little Jack Banning as a kid. But Jack Banning loves his dad, loves baseball,

but his dad no attend baseball game in Christmas time. Yeah, but David, he sent a cinematographer. He sent a cinematographer to catch all the action. Yeah, a video. That feels personal. Send someone to film it. Yeah, that's... That'll really resonate with that kid when he's scanning the bleachers looking for daddy.

Very quickly after this, though, they get on a plane to go to London where Peter was raised as an orphan by Wendy from Peter Pan, who's now Maggie Smith in old age makeup. It's one of those funny things where you're like, this is actually Maggie Smith younger. You know what I mean? Like they're aging her up. They're aging her up to McGonagall levels.

Right, we know what she's gonna look like and they kinda nail it. Yeah, they really nail it. The mind glitches watching it now cause you're like, how the fuck did she live another 40 years? And the answer is she's like 57 in this, but they just absolutely correctly predicted the exact way she would age.

They nailed it. They do. And she's really good, and obviously, I'm sure she was just cast because she has instant mega presence. Maggie Smith is the greatest. Was she a dame yet? She probably wasn't even a dame yet. That's a great question. When did she get the DBE, as they call it? It does speak a little bit to the hubris of this movie, though,

where it's just like, he's Steven Spielberg. For every single role, you're gonna get the single greatest person you could possibly find for that moment, you know? I think Bob Hoskins, to me, is maybe the best performance in this movie. She had just gotten her game hood in 1990. She's freshly damed. But in a way that... She has two Oscars already.

Unbalances the film a little bit for me. Prime Miss Jean Brody, one of my mom's favorite movies. An incredible movie. And then the OK California Suite, her other Oscar win. But like when you have Bob Hoskins as Smee, just throwin' fastballs. Yeah. See, my parents forced me to play baseball.

I understand what a fastball is. I explained this to Ben for some unclear reason. Yeah, Ben. A fast ball is a ball that goes very fast. Some of the balls aren't as fast as others. Good to know. And a curve ball, I'm gonna guess. Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you, the fucking Jack Banning can't hit a curve ball for shit. Yeah, he cannot. Yeah, Robin's like, no, not the curve ball. The scouting report on this guy is easy, like breaking balls, you cannot hit them. I felt it in that I was sucked at baseball. Oh, you did?

And I especially was bad at batting. Uh-huh. I've talked about this before, but I was left-handed and like two foot negative six. And what my little league teams would do was they would put me up to bat when bases were loaded because they'd call me the walk-on kid, and children could not pitch to me.

Because you had no strike zone, and you were a lefty. So they would throw the ball, and it would hit me, and it would hurt, and then everyone would cheer and give me a thumbs up and go, Griffin, good job, and I would limp with tears over to first base and get them a run. Barry Bonds over here, great OBP. But it speaks to my torture relationship to sports is just like, if you're willing to

undergo physical pain, then maybe your dad will be proud for 30 seconds. So what I was going to say is that Bob Hoskins is so good throwing fastballs as Smee, that when he's on screen, I'm like, oh, right. So this whole movie is about Smee, right? And it's like, no, he's Smee. He's like one of the parts of this thing. He's number two to Mr. Hook. Right, but he's giving you so much that you're like,

well, this film should be called Smee. It's Peter Pan retold from Smee's project. Smee and Rufio would be a very successful spin-off of this movie. You know, Hoskins is... Take what works. ...right at the peak of, like, somehow this guy has become a Hollywood movie star. Like, you know, where it's like Mermaids is the year before Roger Rabbit,

a couple of years before then. Mario Brothers is coming up where it's kind of like, yeah, I guess this like five, six cockney guy needs to be the lead of movies. That's what's crazy though. It's not just that he had become a major movie star, but it was like kids love Bob Hoskins. Which we did.

We did. I would see that guy and I would be like, there's my friend Bob Hoskins. My best friend. Yes. And like then only later do I realize like, that was like a serious actor. That's like an Oscar nominated serious thespian. I mean, that's the Hoskins clip that I watch all the time

of when he gets the Mario role. I mean, that's the Hoskins clip that I watch all the time of when he gets the Mario roll and his kids are like, we played Mario and he's like, what? And they load it from this and he's like, and I watched this little boop boop and he's like, I used to play King Lear. But he signed on not knowing it was a game. He's like, what a wild idea for a picture. I mean, I think he signed on with whatever the zeros on the chat quarter. Right, the script was made in a sandwich which between million dollar bills.

So, all right, but so Peter Banning, okay, so he goes to England, it's this snowy sort of fakie England, like this like total fantasy of England, like does not snow like that in England ever. And like, it just feels like they'd like go to a Christmas card, right? You know, like they go to this lovely big home, this big kind of Attic-y room, right? Like it's like they're going into Peter Pan world already. To throw out a thing that already drives me crazy about the movie at this point.

Is it? I do really like the plane scene where Jack's giving his dad the... Not surprised you like that. And draws the picture of his dad dying in the plane. Without a parachute. Yep, it's pretty funny. Yes. Which is a nice nod to this movie's pitch coming out of a children's drawing. No, it did, Dustin Hoffman is the voice of the pilot giving the warning turbulence, which

is their subtle nod to the idea of double casting hook in some way. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Hoskins is a street sweeper very late in the movie as well. Yes. What are you not like? I think I'm saying nothing controversial here. Robin Williams at his best properly applied

one of the most effective actors in movie history, right? But the legacy of Robin Williams across many decades is sometimes going like, Robin, you shouldn't do that. Come on, man. Right? That's not the right thing for you to do. Like wrong instinct. Robin Williams on paper playing Peter Pan in a Steven Spielberg movie.

You're like, well, that makes the most sense of anything in the world. But it's also part of the inherent tension of what I struggle with in this movie is that it's like, so what is the idea? It's like Peter Pan grew up and has to remember to reconnect with this child made by two people who kind of never grew up. And this opening section, I feel like they do not totally know how to depict his boring normal life. Where I'm like, I think Robin Williams has too much comedy energy in this section of the movie. And then I think in the midsection where he's in Neverland

and is like, oh, I don't know. I got a little closer. That was better. Yeah. That was better. I feel like in the midsection, his energy just goes down to zero when he's lost. And that's what I kind of want him to be at the beginning where I'm like, he's

having too much fun being a shitty businessman, the quick draw shit and the bits. And when he does like the fundraiser dinner and he's like, Oh, I'm nervous. I'm not much of a public speaker. Whoa. I'm getting, I'm getting closer. You're warming up. Yeah.

Good morning orphans. They fucking do the bit. Smee does like, good morning, Neverland. Yeah. I immediately, I'm like, this is the wrong story choice when it cuts to him at the banquet and he's delivering his shitty jokes, but he's killing. It's a bit of a Robin Williams problem.

Like it's very tough for that guy to not be on. Like he's a natural state. But in the midsection, I think he turns off. But even in Robin Williams problem. Like it's very tough for that guy to not be on. Like he's just a natural state. But in the midsection, I think he turns off. But even in Robin Williams hits, there's just like the sections where they let him go full Robin. Absolutely. And I feel like that was like the one, they put him in front of an audience

and I think that just happened. I think you're doing Jim Carrey where like Peter Weir later said like you had to make him, you have to wear him down. Take over and over so he would just stop being Jim Carrey. Right. You would get it out of his system. I just think the most effective version of this movie is,

you're watching the first 30 minutes and you're like, oh my God, where has Robin Williams gone? There's none of that spark. And seeing it come back feels like such an exciting, cathartic thing. But it should also be ten minutes. It's way too long. It's just crazy how long it is. And it would make more sense if they were really, like,

firmly setting up the lore. Instead, as you guys are pointing out, the lore is pretty vague. It's a little hard to parse what exactly happened here. Finding Nemo problem like this movie should open with Maggie Smith narrating the explanation of how he ended up staying here and growing old. And then it cuts to 10 minutes of him being a shitty dad. Because when it's 30 minutes, he needs to have jokes in there, because otherwise the audience is going to be bored to tears. I want ten minutes of him just being like, ugh, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh, like kind of trudging

through life, because you also need to be like, he's not even really enjoying this. He's on autopilot. And then when he gets to Neverland, he's sort of trying to find himself, and then the last act is like, we got full Robin, he's fucking swashbuckling and doing impressions of William F. Buckley or whatever. He's doing his genie bits. Wait a minute. Jimmy Swagger in Neverland. Yeah.

I just always feel like his performance is miscalibrated in the arc. I understand. Yeah. His children are kidnapped by Captain James Hook, who leaves a note saying essentially like, I took the children, come get me. And then Tinkerbell arrives to sort of bully Peter

into getting to Neverland with her, right? Can I just say about the note? Yeah. What a way to leave a note. Hook on the door, like a knife on the door, sorry. Yeah, I've never done that before, but. Oh, you haven't? That hasn't come up? You know what? You haven't been like, you know, went to get milk. Yeah, door, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I've never done that before. Oh you haven't that hasn't come up You know what? You haven't been like, you know went to get milk Back in 20, isn't that how you propose marriage to your fiance? No, will you marry me dagger? No, I use the ninja star

and We exit snowy London and enter Neverland Which is kind of tropical. Like beyond the fact that it's like an island with water and shit. Like it has this sort of like tropical energy to it. Would you agree? Very, very colorful, obviously. I'll tell you what it feels like to me. Well, it feels like the like water park adjacent to a major theme park.

Yes, it does. It feels like a theme park. Right. Yes. But all the like Disney and Universal have their sort of like, here's our fourth does. It feels like a theme park. Right. Yes. But all the Disney and Universal have their sort of like, here's our fourth gate. It's called Water Island. But it's also...

It's weirdly volcano themed and kind of half thought out and it's just got a bunch of things that spin. But it's also this fake reality that doesn't know what to do with itself, right? The pirates are there. They be pirates, but they have nothing to, you know, go and pirate. Right. Right, they're not setting sail and doing pirate stuff. They're just kind of stuck.

Yeah, I don't want hard shoe leather on this, but I do want the movie to give me a little more of like, what the fuck have they been doing for 20 years? They, I think you're overthinking this. Yeah. I'm going to finally call it out. You're overthinking this. Time doesn't move for them like that. They don't exist in time. They don't age. But I think the fun thing is the idea that it's like, if Hook doesn't have Pan...

Or that there's this feedback loop of fun that's happening. They fight the boys, the boys hang out with the Tiger Lily, Tiger Lily fights, helps them. Like, it's this feedback loop of endless adventure. Right. But the great unresolved thing in Hook is that he never got to defeat Pan, right? That that's been driving him crazy in this, like, interim period, which then also deflates for me a little bit when he's just like, you're not Peter Pan. Anyway, I'm going to go back to fighting the kids.

All of this to me is quite fun. I enjoy just like the pirates being pirates and Hook being Hook. Yo-ho-ho. Yes. Like I, I, this, this. A bottle of fun? Hmm? Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of fun.

And a bottle of fun. Thank you very much. You're welcome. The Glenn Close. The Glenn Close. Right, you know, like that whole sequence of like, someone amongst us is not who he's that, you know, right? Like, and it's Sid Robbins assumes it's him.

That's so fun. I gotta call out my favorite cameo in the movie. The Boo Box. Uh, who? Well, you know, Phil Collins has the... Phil Collins is the cop who's like, oh, seems like part took your kids. It's a bit weird giving that you're a fucking pen or whatever.

I'll see you later. Yeah, something hooky in the air tonight. Yeah, right, there's something. When Tinkerbell drags Peter through the sky, and there's like errant pixie dust falling down, and you have like the very kind of matte painting-y bridge in front of Big Ben, uh, that, uh, the couple's kissing and they elevate into the sky, they start flying

as they're kissing, do you know who that is? George Lucas and Carrie Fisher. Oh, I do! Isn't that weird? I love it. George Lucas Smooch and Carrie Fisher. Oh, I did. Isn't that weird? I love it. George Lucas, Smooch and Leia. But do you think that was just because they were on set that day? Could that have been David Crosby and the Queen of Jordan kissing?

I think 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? If they had visited that day. Slap a wig on the Queen of Jordan. She's a pirate's life for her. You're kissing David Crosby who is already dressed as a pirate. David Crosby obviously is. Wait, so pirate's life for her. You're kissing David Crosby, who is already dressed as a pirate. David Crosby obviously is.

Wait, so that was David Crosby. That's David Crosby. That is him. I was like, he looks so much like him. David Crosby is 90% of the way to being a pirate in his daily life. Yeah. God bless him. He swashes. God bless him.

He buckles. Is it actually insane that this is the only time David Crosby has played a literal pirate? I mean, do you know that it is? I'm asking. I'm sure he's got other uncredited pirate roles. There must be. He hasn't told us about it.

Because otherwise, what a waste. Yeah. And he gets kicked in the nuts. He gets a full on nut shot. He gets kicked in the nuts. Yeah. So, yeah, what is there to say about... I mean, like, so Peter is, you know, this is the dismal failure of Peter. They put a ticking clock on it.

Give me three days to get him into shape. But it's a tough scene. By the way, also another cameo, Apollo Creed's manager is one of the pirate, he's the only black pirate that I clocked. Duke? Yeah, Duke. That's Apollo Creed's manager in the Rocky movies.

He's in all six of the Rocky movies. Yeah, Tony Burton is the actor's name. I did not like Tony Burton. Hook. Let's see. Dang. So everyone just kind of wanted to go have fun. Hang out with Spielberg. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, the pirates are great. The costuming is great. Like, you know, like everyone's having fun. Oh, Jimmy Buffett is also one of the pirates.

What? Because he, of course, is best friends, was best friends with Frank Marshall. Yeah. Yeah, that's the homies I know this in my professional life. It's a Frank Marshall Frank Marshall put in for it No, no, he produced the Jimmy Buffett musical. Yes. Yes. Yes And now Frank Marshall who obviously had a long career as a producer and also made, you know Congo and Ragnophobia and a lot like he made movies, now just churns out music documentaries.

Like that Bee Gees one was so good, he's since done Carole King, James Taylor. He did the Beach Boys. And the Beach Boys, and something about like New Orleans Jazz Fest. He's just like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. He's just doing what he wants to do now. That must be what it is, right? That's a blank check, yeah.

Yeah, like where he's just like, can I just interview people, like, and have fun? Right, yeah, talking about... Like music, I like. Yeah, exactly. But no, the shaming of Peter, again, like where it's like, save your children, go fly for them. And then he's humiliated in front of them. It's, I think as a kid,

this is like quite transgressive to watch. To watch a dad like get humiliated like this. Yeah, you can't save your kids. Right, it's really kind of unsettling. I think you're bumping on this again as having not seen this as a kid. No, no, no, no. Here's what I'm reckoning with. In a world of mom and dad save the world type of movies,

to see an emasculated dad basically be like, your dad can't do shit. Like, Bowser doesn't try to be Princess Peach's dad. Like, it's weird that Captain Hook, with the help of Smee, quickly alights on, like, I'll be their father. Like, the dynamics of it are so strange. It's speaking to the original, like, Peter Pan mythos. I do think that's the most interesting idea in the movie,

that Smee is like, you actually want to, like, fucking hurt this guy. It's not going to be through a sword fight. Right, if you're fighting a kid, you fight with your swords. But, like, now, right, the way to get at him is to like, he grew up and he has emotions now. So either you're going to like outbid him. Right. On the like merger they want to do. He brought parental dynamics to a knife fight. Right.

That's what I'm saying. Yes. He's and the hook's like, oh, good, good, good. Like, let's just get them toys and Stockholm syndrome is child. Right. And have them do good baseball. This is what I'm trying to process. In a childhood where my parents were saying like, and most of all, remember hook socks every morning. If you remember, let our legacy be.

Right. My dad was like, stay in school. Putting your backpack on. Never get a tattoo. Hook socks. Right? Those were like his three things. I do remember as a child being like, that is a potent idea for a movie. And I probably worded it the exact way. I stroked as a child being like, that is a potent idea for a movie. And I probably worded it the exact way. I stroked my chin and I went, that's a potent

idea for a movie. No, but like as a child, you're like, fuck, what if Captain Hook never got over Peter Pan? And Peter Pan grew up and he forgot that he was Peter Pan. And when I would catch bits of it on TV at friends' houses or whatever. This was the section I do remember sticking with me. Of being like, this movie's bad? That feels kind of interesting to have Hook be like, what if I raise them better than you do? And listen, I mean, two things. One, like, as an 11-year-old whose dad did work too much

and did have a fucking early cell phone, like, that notion of I could get revenge on my dad. And find a different found dad. And that's very potent and powerful. Did your dad have a cell phone? Oh, yeah. The big brick. I remember my dad had a big car phone.

Of course. I love those car phones. Because when should you really be talking on the phone? In the car. In the car. Crazy. No, but I do think that's the power Because when should you really be talking on the phone? In the car. In the car. In the car. That's crazy. No, but I do think that's the power at the center of the premise, right? More than anything is what if Captain Hook realizes the best way to get back at Peter

Pan is being a good dad. Not just trying to go after the kids, but like the scene I remember as a child catching glimpses, feeling like it had a little juice, was the baseball game and him watching Cook provide the actual attention and support that he wasn't giving. Right. That it's not just that he's like,

I'm giving you rubies. Yeah. Right, he's saying like, I love you boy. Yeah, and you're gonna succeed and you're gonna be right, like, paid attention to. I like that, you know, it's really all centered on Jack, though, Maggie, they're just kind of like, eh, we'll figure her out. I was gonna say, I do feel like-

Maggie doesn't like me, we'll lock her to closets. Yeah. If they hadn't caught her song by him. She would disappear from the movie. She's the cutie pie, though. She's cute. Do do do do do. So, Peter is given three days to become Peter Pan, would disappear from the movie. She's the cutie pie doll. She's cute. Do do do do do.

So Peter is given three days to become Peter Pan. He goes off to the Lost Boys with the help of Tinkerbell and he joins the Lost Boys. He should have taken Duke with him because that guy's good at training people into shit. He does get four mermaids. A very strange moment in the movie. He gets dunked into the water

and a bunch of adult mermaids make out with him and then he goes off to the Lost Boys. There's no tongue, they're breathing into him. That's true, that's a good point. You added the tongue. Resuscitation. I didn't say anything about tongue, I just said they kiss.

What do you call an open mouth kiss with no tongue but a lot of breathing? Where you're just kind of going like, whoosh, like oxygen delivery. It is a really interesting, it sort of feels like the nod to the rest of Never Neverland in this weirdly grown-up. Yes. That's what I think I'm more getting at.

Not that I'm like, how does this city run? But that I feel like in all other depictions... What's the economy here? What kind of money are these people making? I don't care about any of that. It's a magical land. I want to be a magical land. I feel like every other depiction of Peter Pan has a little more of this. And it's maybe part of what you lose by like removing Tiger Lilly,

which is the right decision. But the sense sense that like there's a bunch of other shit going on here too right i've always liked in depictions of pan where you're like what goes on in that forest here's this tribe here's this clique here's this species whatever it is you sort of just have the 30 seconds of let well, I mean, it's a pretty hot kissing. It's about an hour into the movie or a little before, Lin, when he's finally at the ramps. Yeah, it's 52 minutes when he finally gets to bangerang. Right, so the Lost Boys, similar to Hook, it's like Hook has been stuck in like,

I'm a villain with no enemy, really, and the Lost Boys are like, we're having fun, but with no like whatever, like organizing purpose, I guess. So what do we think of the Lost Boys? What more can we say about the Lost Boys? We've already talked about how fun the set is, how cool the tracks are. It's this insanely diverse crew. They are child star all stars

that we've seen in other movies. I mean, and that there you are Peter scene is the scene. Like that's the moment where Spielberg like, pulls like just magic out of a hat and like that music swells and you feel stuff. Like that's, if there's a metaphor for what Spielberg makes you feel when you're watching like his best movies,

it's that. He pulls your face back. He goes, there you are. There's your inner child. And everyone goes, holy shit. It can feel like this. Isaiah Robinson plays pockets. I, he's maybe my favorite of the kids,

but I don't know how much of it is that moment. I will say I am pretty allergic to Thudbutt. Oh man, I could not disagree with you more. Thudbutt is a very 90s kid. He's the most 90s kid. He feels like he should be on The Mighty Ducks later, or whatever. He's just kind of like a 90s kid.

Rashawn Hammond is the actor. Maybe it's what I like the most about The Mighty Ducks. Is that Thudbutt isn't on the team. What do you think of Thudbutt, Lin? I love Thud Butt isn't on the team. What do you think of Thud Butt, Lin? I love Thud Butt. Thud Butt is A-plus all around for me. He's very funny. How about when he sits on the bench, it moves the gravity of the bench over and he goes, don't crowd me.

I mean, he's getting effortless laughs. David just solemnly nodding. That's a good one. I like Thud Butt's beret plus tie combo. I like that they have this kind of mix of like, greaser energy but like, Dickensian child wardrobe is sort of a funny way to present them.

I bump on. Rufio's kind of punk. Rufio's completely different. Well, it also, it gives you the sense that different kids have wound up here in different times. They have different ties. Different eras, different cultures. In the same way like ghosts can be any century, right?

He's just got the triple mohawk thing. He's got like the shark teeth or whatever, whatever is dangling on his jacket. He's got like ripped up the vest and the ripped up pants. He's a little older. He's like the oldest. He presents as the oldest, why he's the leader. He's got the coolest name in the world, Rufio. I don't know where they came.

This is an entirely original character, right? There's no naming of the Lost Boys apart from the ones we know and love, which is funny. Right? I'm just like, yeah. Yeah, in the original thing, it's like Toodles, Nibs. Slightly. Slightly. Yeah, that's the one I always remember.

Curly and the twins are the original Lost Boys. And, you know, the Disney cartoon basically hinges with that. Right. Yeah, they're all made up. Yeah, I mean, Thudbutt, when he turns himself into a perfect sphere. He does do that. Can we talk about this for a second? Can we talk about this for an hour? We were texting with JD this morning, and JD brought to our attention that in 2018.

No, no, I found it. Oh, you found it. I'm sorry. So here's the prop. It was auctioned off in 2018. It's a little ghastly. This is Thudbud in ball form. We will post this on our social media.

So obviously right, Thudbud has a special move. All these kids sort of like Pokemon, like they all have like a power. Yeah, they evolve. And Thudbud's special move is where he sort of folds his legs up to his shoulders and turns into a ball and rolls. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this.

And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to do this. And then he's like, oh, they all have like a power. Yeah, they evolve. And Thud's Bud's special move is where he sort of folds his legs up to his shoulders and turns into a ball and rolls and it's a pretty obvious shift from actor to prop in the movie when this happens. Spielberg is a still filmmaker. Please post that. We will post it.

This prop which was auctioned off in 2018, price undisclosed, you know, age has not been kind to it. It probably looked better in 91. Spielberg's a good filmmaker, so he knows what angles, how to light it, how long to let the shot last, versus a head-on, bright, direct light photo of a 25-year aged prop has not been kind to it. He fully sonics.

He does fully sonics. He does. He fully sonics. That's so true. I responded with the Mattel Thud Butt action figure, which on the back has the illustration of the instructions of how to get his play feature activated, which is you can turn him into Thud Ball mode. Thud Butt is certainly,

he's the biggest ask of all these kids. The rest of the kids most acute. He's so much. You hate him so much as I said? No, I just said he is a lot. He's a lot. I just basically bump on everything he's doing. But his scene with Robin got me too,

when he's like, mine's my mother. Do you have a happy thought? Mine's my mother. Oh, butt, butt, making. He's got chubby cheeks. I mean, this is very much, it's sort of like the Ewoks in Jedi, where I, right, like there's... Yeah, if you were a kid, you liked it. If you weren't, you didn't like it.

Which, I love the Ewoks. You know, the Ewoks are, you know, the Resistance would have failed without the Ewoks. Yeah, they took out the power. Yeah, you know, the logs smashing the... Also, when Thudbutt realizes he can step on planks and hit people in the nuts, that's how we get David Crosby getting hit in the nuts. That is true. Now, I mean like-

Sure, I have to thank him for that, I do. The, as Lynn was saying, like the logic of, they stab and shoot, but the Lost Boys are a little more like we knock you over like bowling pins, right? Like that's more what they're aiming to do. But Death is present, but only so present, it's never explained or it's never delved into. How much peril everyone's in.

Yeah, it's also interesting how late Rufio dies, because obviously it takes 50 minutes to get to the Lost Boys, right? But you could see the more obvious structure being, Rufio dies at the end of Act Two, and that's what motivates Peter needing to come into his own and really start to like lead the guys. Versus like Rufio being a sacrifice

once Peter has all ready. Rufio died for our sins exactly what he needed to. He does die for our sins, yeah. He does. And so Rufio, right, as I already sort of said, he's kind of the juice of the movie. Because he's not just a problem. Like he could just be a script problem for Peter.

He's returned to the Lost Boys and the Lost Boys are like, hey man, you left. Like he could just be a script problem for Peter. He's returned to the Lost Boys and the Lost Boys are like, hey man, you left. Like the leadership has changed. Rufio's in charge now. You have to beat Rufio. But Rufio loves Peter Pan and misses Peter Pan just as much as more than anyone.

And he is Spielberg like, you know, missing his dad. And this movie is made when Spielberg is reconciling with his father. As we talked about on our Empire of the Sun episode, like right when Spielberg is finally realizing that his dad didn't abandon the family exactly, but sort of stepped aside from the family because the mom wanted to be with Seth Rogen. Whether or not that was the right decision,

he's trying to process these things. Right, right. He's trying to protect his mom a little bit. Right. Right. And it's like this whole movie is about like the father returning, you know? And like stepping into the childish role,

but also into the... And that is where like the juice is in the movie. It's such a rich soup. Our friend Bill Garberi on our Empire of the Sun was saying that his big theory is that there is this like, bifurcation. This is the dividing line. In Spielberg's career, that the first half of his career,

he's making movies from the perspective of a son, the second half from the perspective of a father. And it's basically just like clean, like a line is crossed and at one point, past the other, right? I always feel like Last Crusade is that pivot point movie because it's basically this guy being like, my dad hates me and I hate him,

forced to go on an adventure with him and being like, fuck, we are kind of the same person, aren't we? Like, I hate that I now kind of get him, right? And he has to begrudgingly be like, I understand the value in what you do. Your silly Indiana Jones stuff has some power, right? That's really real. Right. So then to me,

I'm like, there is like a clear takeaway in that movie of Spielberg, like processing some stuff and like finding some middle ground with his father. And then this movie, I find it, I find the reckoning interesting. I find the fighting with itself interesting. I just like do not know what the end conclusion is here. And I'm not asking for like an answer narratively. Yeah, I know what the end conclusion is here, and I'm not asking for an answer narratively. I'm sort of like, does Spielberg,

is anything settled in him by making this film? Which is not what I ask for from a film, but I also think a lot of the most interesting movies ever made are someone kind of needing to get something off their chest and realizing in that sort of James Lipton way of like, oh, fuck, I didn't realize Close Encounters was about me trying to talk to my mom and my dad, right? And this, I'm just like, if this is a therapy session, does the therapist go like, I have no idea

what to make of this. You've thrown a lot at me, but I actually can't tie any of this together. Certainly, all of it's being like, fucked. Like the simplest answers or whatever, like the most pat being, like, fought. Like, the simplest answer is, or whatever, like, the most Pat answers is, like, Hook is like, you are afraid of dying. And Peter Pan's like, no, I'm actually afraid of living, but in confronting you, I have realized it will be great to live as a grown-up. Like, to be a grown-up. Like, it will be fine. Because, yes, Peter Pan had already become a grown-up, but he's bad at it.

But now he's like, no, no, no. I understand that living and raising my children and growing old is going to be fine. And so I no longer return, long to return to Neverland and be an eternal child. So that's what Spielberg, I guess, is realizing. And if you take this as the kind of dividing line of like, right, Jurassic Park and Schindler's List, those are movies made by a dad.

You know what I mean? Like, not movies of childlike wonder, but those movies are, you know, right? Like, that's... Yeah, I just think... Now, if I say this to Spielberg, he'd be like, I don't know, man, that movie was annoying. The sets were too big. It was a headache. Queen of Jordan was on my ass. Like, maybe that's what he would say.

I don't know if he would, like... But I don't need him to be able to explain it. Like, a lot of times, you make a movie because it's something you couldn't say in words, right? You were expressing something greater within you. I think the best artists who are in touch with something, like... But I feel like, and it's part of the weirdness of the, like, Robin Williams, Steven Spielberg,

Captain Hook, Peter Pan movie, that sounds perfect, is like, but these are twoberg, Captain Hook, Peter Pan movie, that sounds perfect, is like, but these are two guys who kind of like defied the odds and had it both ways for most of their career, right? Like these are two guys- Yes, Robin got to be a kid forever in a sort of a way. He always had the impish thing.

And same with Spielberg where it's like, you both got to be kids forever and grow up, right? They both like became parents. Yeah, like what's Spielberg have kid energy now? Like, what's he like? Yeah, I can tell you the one time I ever was on a set he was on, he was filming West Side Story in Washington Heights. Right, of course. It was the same summer we were writing.

It was one of my all time top favorite days. We filmed the finale of In the Heights on 175th Street. And I walked two blocks to 177th Street where he was filming Maria, which is and then I walked home I mean it was truly a top five day for me, but I remember He was like a little and he was filming like the balcony scene But he was me, like in the 10 minutes I got with him on set, where he was like waiting for something to be set up, he was like, look at this, I did these tests with my camera.

And he's showing me like him trying to figure out how to film, and he's like, I did this test with my phone. And it was like a kid making his first musical. And by the way, that to me answers the question of why Hook wasn't a musical. It was like, I wanted to do it right, I wanted to do my favorite one,

and I waited till that was possible, and I wanted to come at it like a student. Do you like West Side Story? I... It's tough for me, but... Yes. Loaded question. I love the original. I think that is an incredibly made movie, and I think it's even more incredible

because Jerome Robbins got fired midway through, Robert Wise took over, and it still works. Like, there's still incredible filmmaking in that movie. And what I enjoy the most about Spielberg's West Side Story is I can tell the sequences that made him want to do it. Like, when you watch cool, you're like, got it. This is why he wanted to make this movie, so he could stage cool.

That sequence is crazy. And then there are the ones that are just like, I think the first movie was more successful in doing it. he wanted to make this movie so he could stage cool. That sequence is crazy. And then there are the ones that are just like, I think the first movie was more successful in doing it. And I also associate it with a certain high I got for seeing a musical for the first, like seeing the American number for the first time. Like, I'm sorry, even Spielberg can't meet my sugar rush

or whatever that rush was in seeing like, are you kidding me? Like, this is what the best musical is about? It's about like Puerto Ricans trying to figure out whether they should let like re... What? So like nothing's ever gonna match that sequence for me. I think a lot about... And Rita Moreno on a rooftop.

Well, even Spielberg may agree with you. I think a lot about what you said the last time you were on the show. Where you were like, my goal as a filmmaker is to like, only make movies of musicals that are not like, canonically already. Sort of like elevated. That you want to be able to like, adapt the things that in a way you're sort of introducing to people. And West Side Story for me, I'm like, that's like an eight out of ten movie to me. Which I think our listeners often think I'm really root for.

And great performances. Like, there's not a bad, like, everyone's wonderful in it. But it's like fighting two? And it's in the shadow of another. That's my thing. I'm like, A, my bar for Spielberg is so fucking high. Yeah. Where if a movie's not a 10 out of 10 masterpiece, I'm like, oh, it's a little disappointing, which I don't really feel that way with almost anyone else.

And then secondly, it's like him riffing on a movie that already has this like insane power to it. So it like has to fight this thing that like, you're not fighting with tick tick boom, which is sort of like, there's a lot of room to interpret here. Absolutely. What was I going to say before?

You're talking about like Stephen and Robin as eternal children. Yes, I think they're both these interesting guys who had this balance of like never losing the childlike Glee and being able to connect to that and being able to communicate that while also maturing, you know becoming responsible parents becoming like moguls within their industry and people who like move like the tenor of the entire like pop culture landscape with them and could like

stretch into different types of work and do it in a way that didn't feel like a kid playing a grown up in a school play. And so I think a lot of the Captain Hook, Peter Pan dynamic is based on an ideological binary that these guys in a weird way kind of can't relate to because they've been able to marry the two. It's connected. And I feel like that's the conclusion that this movie needs to get to that they maybe couldn't quite figure out how to verbalize, which is like, what is the version of being a balanced person, having your cake and eating it too?

And this movie basically goes like, he reactivates being Peter Pan long enough to defeat a hook and then he goes back to being a better dad. Well, no, so Peter Pan can be within him now without it being a problem. He's merged, you know, like he's one person now. It's so fun. I mean, it's again, because like I'm thinking back to like when Spielberg was just shorthand for you want to be an artist.

Sure. And that's how it was presented to me as a kid, and that's how I processed it. Because I also, as an adult, I think so much about what I hold true to being an artist is keeping the channel to your younger selves open. Like that's what the best acting is, what the best writing is. It's like being connected to all the versions so that when I have to write from the perspective

of a 12 year old, we have to write Moana trying to get off land, I have to be able to connect to who is Moana? What is she doing there? What does she want to do? If I have to consider the coconut, I have to consider. You have to consider the coconut. The key to being an artist is what Peter Banning does

at the end of this movie, is staying connected to your younger self and being able to access that channel whenever you need to. Because you... I think a lot... I think a lot of the decisions we make as adults are just like promises we're keeping to a younger version of ourselves. And... That's a big statement. Yeah.

I'm just thinking on that. Yep. And your job as an artist is to be able to access that and be like, all right, well, if I were 16, what would blow my mind? Like, what do I wanna make? What do I wanna see? Like, that's a lot of, I think, how you form your artistic impulses is like, what did you like as a kid?

What did you not like? And then like, that's how your tastes form. Like, if our parents told me I hated Hook, I'd be like you sitting in the corner nitpicking the economy of the greater Netherlands. You're on my cell phone trying to acquire companies. Does Bruno have a little hook Peter Pan to him? He's an eternal child in a way.

Bruno in the walls. I'm just thinking about it. Bruno's so scarred, right? Yeah, I guess so, but he's funny. Bruno's funny. Loki is very funny. When he got John Leguizamo like, you know what? When he puts the helmet on his head, what's up?

We don't talk about Bruno on this podcast. We don't talk about him that much. We don't this podcast. We don't talk about him that much. We don't do that. We don't. We don't talk about him. I'm not saying we can't. I'm just saying we don't do it very often. Just Bruno aside, since you took us there. Please, please tell me something about Bruno.

I love to think about him. Um, that was probably the easiest, not easiest song to write. That's crazy, because it's quite a complex song. It's a very complex song. And I was, I knew it was comp... Like, I remember actually, we were in lockdown at the time. So I was living with my in-laws and my brother-in-law.

Sounds fun. That's a lot of the secret... Wait, is Enkanto based in that? A lot of the secret sauce of what's in there, the juice in there is like... Stuck in a house with extended family. What are we allowed to talk about in front of your mother? This is making a lot of sense.

No, and as someone who lives with his in-laws, no wonder he can't really resonate with his in-laws. But I do remember, like, actually stealing away and going to another place to write Bruno and being like, let me go write this somewhere else, because it's a lot to work out. But the idea for it of, like, it's gonna be a spooky Montuno and every story they tell about Bruno

is actually easily explained away, because we're gonna have to see it from another angle. Now when Dolores says that she can hear him, she can hear him. Well, she has very big ears. But she doesn't know that it's like she thinks she can just like, right? Like Dolores doesn't actually know he's in the walls, right? She's got the little aside where she's saying she can hear him, but I think she's more thinking of it metaphorically.

I like to think of it that Dolores is known the whole time, but she also has learned, like, we don't talk about it. So it's just a thing. Dolores is my favorite character. Cursed with knowledge that everyone, you know, that's, you know. Dolores, the ultimate gossip, because she can hear everything. But that's the thing. She could be the ultimate gossip, but she keeps all these secrets because she hears everything in the town.

Now, see, I have neither seen this movie six million times nor written all the songs for it. But my interpretation, maybe this holds less water. I will also say, I think Camilo's powers are crazy. The fact that he can shape shift, he mostly uses it to like hold other people's babies. There's a lot to explore with Camilo. Oh, he was much more nefarious in early drafts.

That makes sense, because he's like a little... And then they were like, we like this kid. So then, yeah, well, it became like we are in service of the town. Of course, right, right. It's like a heroic duty kind of to give back. Yeah, he was just doing it to fuck with her a lot in the early drafts. I was going to ask, because her ears are so big, is there an interpretation that she can hear Bruno, but she doesn't think he's is there an interpretation that she can hear Bruno, but she doesn't think he's that close?

Like, she's like, well, of course I can hear him, but he might be like 40 towns away. I can hear everything. I don't know. I think she echolocates him pretty easily. Okay. So she's just following the rules. Although there are weird magical rules in that house. Like, the fact that he's top of that tower. In incontour? They're magical rules.

I just mean in terms of where in space he might be, actually might be tough to echo over. The rooms are bigger on the inside. Rooms are bigger inside. They're all Mary Poppins bags. And is it true that when Stephanie had to do the Family Magical live, you were like, I don't know how you do this live by the way. Like, sorry, this song was not written

to be performed live. So again, I showed up to, you're talking about the Hollywood Bowl performance? Yeah, so I- Hey, we'll do not written to be performed live. So, again, I showed up to... You're talking about the Hollywood Bowl performance? Yeah, so I... Hey, well, the song's live, have fun! I got there, like, as they were in mid-rehearsal, and I think Jamal Sims, who choreographed the sequences for the animated movie, staged that,

and I think he staged it unbelievably. The one thing I would have said was, like, let the other people sing the chorus, so that Stephanie can breathe. Right, it's overwhelming. Yeah, I just, I, that's the one thing where I was like, we could have given her a break here, and no one would have minded. Like, the company could have swept in and be like,

welcome to the fan, and she could have breathed so that she could get ready for the next session. You also could make a big out of her breathing. It's an eight-minute sequence. Yes, and like the run at the end where my sister... You know, it's like, I don't know how you do that. Anyway, I love the content. I was...

I hope we get like a, like I get a crack at like figuring out what the theatrical version of an encounter would be. Love, love, love to see it. Because it feels more suited to it. There are a few movies I have seen that are more... Right, because it's somewhat suited to a location. Yeah, yeah. But still, you know.

Yeah, it feels like a very obvious conversion. Now, will my daughter ever realize that Maribel's name is Maribel. She just calls her in canto She knows they were like there was like an interview Like they got audio footage of Trump at the Kennedy Center and he was like and then Betty Buckley's gets up and sings cats I was like she doesn't sing cats. He's he sings memory Anyway, let me... His Broadway depth of knowledge is both insanely off and you're kind of like, what?

It's like three years. It's like people who hyperfixate on the SNL cast when they were like 18. Those are the ones. Maybe Les Mis. Right. Oh, boy. Well, we all agree on Les Mis.

Yes. Good show. Yeah. So, we haven't discussed Hoffman. Yeah, I all agree on Les Mith. Yes. Les Mith's great. Yeah. So, we haven't discussed Hoffman much. Yeah, I think we should discuss Hoffman. It's not like he's not a comic performer. He has given other comic performances that are very funny.

I think he's almost underrated as a comic performer. Exactly. Like Wag the Dog. Especially because his reputation for being so intense was overwhelming that even when he made giant hit comedies, they were like, yeah, but Dustin Hoffman's the most serious man alive. Tootsie, obviously, is this like big hit comedy

and he is funny in it, but it's somewhat of a dramatic performance that he's giving. Right, he's playing a method actor. Yes. Who stumbles into a comedic situation. But he's both so funny in the self-parody and also then like Dorothy Michaels is a very funny performance, which he plays

with depth and integrity. But when you think about Hoffman at this point, it's like he wins the Oscar for Rayman in 88. That's his second Oscar. Obviously, that's this like insanely big Methodie performance, right? He follows it with Family Business, which is basically forgotten the Connery, Broderick, Hoffman. A movie I'm obsessed with the notion of a Sidney Lumet film in which the poster is, of course, these three people are related. Connery, Hoffman, Broderick.

Dustin Hoffman fathered Matthew Broderick. They all have the exact same voice. Then Dick Tracy, in which he is Mumbles. You're right. And I think that was shot the day after he won the Oscar and he had like a 103 degree temperature. There's some story about that. All that makeup.

Billy Bathgate, a sort of notorious flop of 1991. And then Hook is the, so like, it's just like, it feels like he is going for something completely different post Raymond, right? You know, he is like, I want to do... He's having a blast. He's a three time loss. I want to have fun. And by the know, he's like, I want to do... He's having a blast. He's a free time to have fun.

And by the way, like, his sword fights with Robin Williams are like legit good. It's one reason I like the movie, like, you know, or I forgive the movie, sometimes it has fencing in it. Any movie with fencing in it, I'm serious. It's how I feel about the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I'm like, if you're gonna give me fencing sequences, we don't get those in movies ever.

Maybe I just don't really care about fencing. You don't like sword fighting, but you like Star Wars. I love Star Wars. Do you like lightsaber fighting? I like lightsaber battles, of course. Which is just, of course, sci-fi fencing. But maybe I just need the swords to glow. So you don't like your classic Errol Flynn-y stuff,

like you never got into your No, I like. And Princess Bride. And Princess Bride. And I like Robin Hood, but I've always been cooler on the Pirates movies than you. I do, I do love, I like sword fighting. Yeah. It's really, because it's like dance.

I don't think I dislike sword fighting, but I'm just realizing it doesn't activate me maybe in the same way. I think there were two blades coming out of at the same time, like... I think that's on purpose. ...Duel of the Fates. Right. I think Hoffman's sword of thing, and this is also impressive, because he's wearing that coat and stuff. Like, and the stockings and the wig and everything.

He's got so much presence in this movie. It is a wildly committed performance. Like, they're... How about the lip twitch shot, where you just see the mustache? Like, I mean, there's... He's just... He's acting... He's really going for a living cartoon. Kind of similarly to Mumbles. I mean, there's, he's just, he's acting all... He's really going for a living cartoon, kind of similarly to Mumbles, right?

Zoom out in this Hoffman context for a second. Because there's some things here, Lin is leaning back to zoom out. Yeah, zoom all the way out. His 60s and 70s are obviously huge, right? He pops at the end of the 60s. Back to this thing of of him not being thought of as a comedy performer, he breaks through in The Graduates. He's so funny in The Graduates.

Tootsie's like, his highest grossing films ever are Tootsie and Meet the Fockers, right? And Kramer versus Kramer was like a gigantic hit. Yes, you're right, you're right. But I'm like, Rain Man is a comedy. It is, it's a dramedy. It's a dramedy, but it's like, yeah. But a lot of it is funny and he farts and so on and so forth.

Right, like one of his two Oscars is for a comedy, you know? Like a lot of his biggest films are comedies. I mean, calling Rain Man a comedy is interesting because I'm sure, I'm gonna triple check, but I'm sure it won the Golden Globe for like drama or whatever, right? Like. It's very similar to Terms of Endearment in that sort of like, it is a very funny movie

that then gets to some very heavy places. Right, right. Do you like Rain Man? Rain Man's kind of an under-discussed movie for our generation. Yeah, I... Uncomfortable. Yeah. I mean... I mean, we know so much more about that than we did then. And it's treated as this weird, curious quirk, but...

But yeah, I remember, like... I actually weirdly remember the Oscar montage where they showed Hoffman's clip of him being scared of burning the baby. Like I remember that clip and then cutting back to Hoffman being like, oh yeah, I killed it. To me, Dustin Hoffman. Right, exactly, yeah.

There was a clip I'm obsessed with and I sent the group chat and I'll have them reposted on social media, but it was 98 or 99, I want to say. Golden Globes, they gave Dustin Hoffman the Cecil B. DeMille award, and he's sitting there with his wife, and they play a clip from... Why am I forgetting the name now? Little Big Man. And he leans over to his wife and clearly mouths, good makeup, right?

And he's just kind of like sitting there and they're playing clips and he's just kind of like making little commentary on it. And then they play a clip from hook and he looks frozen in his chair and he's like grimacing and he's like, and I think it does sort of speak to in that moment. He doesn't like that. It's just that movie wasn't enough of a hit. Or do you think he's like, Oh, I'm going too hard. I had a very strong memory of it in my childhood,

especially growing up in a household. I'm going to end in a hook household. I think he's cooking in Hook. Yeah. Lookie, Hook is cooking. I think he is doing a very committed work in Hook. I think there was no reason for him to be embarrassed by anything he did in Hook.

And I was sort of like, do I have a false inflated memory of this? Cause I remember him having a really bad reaction, and I rewatched it and it was bigger than I remembered it from childhood. But he has this weird 80s, after winning his first Oscar for Kramer vs. Kramer, he does start to get into this period of like, is Dustin Hoffman too difficult?

You know, this like, sentiment that people would repeat of like, life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman for everything he gives you as an actor. Famously ornery guy. You're gonna get stuck in like four years of notes and he's gonna battle you on every single thing and he doesn't make many movies in the 80s. He made four movies total in the 80s.

Right. Yeah, so it's, I can find it, but it's basically Ishtar, Tootsie, Rain Man. Ishtar, Tootsie, family business and Rain Man. Yeah. That's it. Right. And so like 90s- He also did his Death of a Salesman,

which was then broadcast on TV, which is this like insanely polarizing performance. Some people are like one of the best Willie Lomans ever. Others are like, he doesn't understand that role at all. Like it's always being debated, that performance. Yeah. But like Tootsie was kind of like a comeback movie after he had only recently won the Oscar.

And then he disappears for a bunch of years, comes back with a movie that is shorthand for flop, even though we love Ishtar or I love Ishtar. Yeah. And he's really funny. And then he gets his second Oscar and it's like, he's coming into the 90s. Like I'm here to stay. Right. He made a lot of movies in the 90s.

Dick Tracy, Billy Baty, Hood, Hero, Outbreak, Sleepers, Mad City, Wagon Arts, Fear. But this feels like such a big swing for him to be like, can I do a whole movie where I'm the title character, you're sort of framing the movie around, wait until Hook gets here, right? Like that is the sell of the movie. Yeah.

He's first build and Dustin Hoffman's gonna go fucking hard as Hook. He looks incredible. I think, I mean, saying all that, I think the fact that he looks like he's having so much fun is even more impressive. Like he's got the veneers in, he's got all the stuff on. He's doing this accent. And he still looks like he's having a fucking blast.

I think he looks like he's having a great time. Ben, do you like Hook? He looks awesome. His costume is incredible. Good form, Good form. Good form. I think he really nails also the, when Peter like humiliates him back near the end

and robs him of his wig and suddenly he's like, you know, on the floor and he looks like an old man. Don't you forget my dignity, Peter. Right. And he's like, oh, I am, please Peter, my dignity. Like he's, you know, you feel for him or whatever. You know, like he's this odd, tragic, like, shadow to Peter. Like, he only exists in opposition to Peter. You're sort of rooting for him to get to play. You want him to have fun. There's the bit, I'm biased, but our friend David Lowery's Peter Pan

and Wendy, which I like a good deal, has the bit that I love, which is a spoiler for a movie that went on Disney Plus four years ago, there is a midsection where Captain Hook believes he has successfully killed Peter Pan, and Jim Gaffigan is me, and Hook's kind of like, so what do I do now? And he's like, let's check the to-do list, and the to-do list has one thing on it,

which is just kill Peter Pan. Go Peter Pan. And I just, while watching this movie, I think back to this bit over and over again. It just makes it like textual in this, but it's just like the guy's got nothing else going on other than his hatred for this kid. Other things I need to say, the food sequence. Yeah. The, you know, you have to access your inner child to see the pretend food that we eat

sequence. What's up with the Dayglow pastries? You know, you have to access your inner child to see the pretend food that we eat sequence. What's up with the Day Glow pastries? They're not appetizing. That to me feels very Nickelodeon-toted. It's just like green, pink, but it's also just like bowls of frosting. I guess that's sort of the idea.

Kids like to eat turkey legs and then a big old bowl of frosting. Because I'm saying, like, Thug Pud's clearly preparing a sandwich. He's doing his object work, he's laying it in, and then all anyone has is just globs of color. Thug Butt does his object work when he turns into an object. That's his ultimate object work.

Yeah. You think he did that in his mad TV audition? Here's my impression of a ball. Peter's insults to Rufio kind of largely don't hit except for nearsighted gynecologist, which is one of the craziest things ever said. It's weird. It's weird. It kind of, I'm also just like, what is the insult that you're calling him a perv? It is funny.

Yeah, I guess it's sort of like someone who's sort of like, well, wait a second. I need to get closer. I don't know. Yeah. I think Robin Williams came I don't know. Yeah. I think Robin Williams came up with that himself. Yes, it is an example for me though, I've seen the movie where I'm like, he's maybe going full Robin too early.

Well, that is supposed to be when it's starting to bleed over. It's starting. Yeah. Yeah. Is there other, you know, I'm just trying to make, you know, is there other things, Lin, in your notes, are there any things we need to

think about here? Leading him to Wendy's house. Yeah, yeah, and all this sort of flashback-y stuff. That's when he really- Classic Peter Pan stuff. That's when he remembers. Yes. That's such an important moment. I know.

The emotion of you are my happy thing, you know what I mean? It's one of those things where I'm like, I find it trickly, as a kid, I think I was sort of like, can we get back to the Lost Boys, please? Now, like I said, you know, I can't help but resonate with me a little bit. Yeah, we're cats now, it's different.

It's different. But it is part of my problem with Hook, where I'm like, who is this for? Right, you know, like I'm not sure. Right. But with the caveat that yes, I enjoyed it as a child. You know, so like I sort of defy my own logic there, but as an adult, I'm like, this isn't for kids enough.

Like it needs to be for kids more maybe, but I don't know. And maybe I'm just, you know, being a bit of a mud, you know, but. Can I call out a thing I do like in this movie? Please. I like Hook's closet or I guess a secondary ship full of clocks. His room of clocks, right, his house of clocks. Yeah.

And his way to blow off steam is to just beat the shit out of clocks. Yes, he hates clocks as the original Captain Hook hates clocks, of course, because the crocodile has a clock in him. Yeah, that's fun. The clock-smashing sequence is very fun. The baseball sequence is great. The final sequence is interesting, because it's goofy at times,

and it's like an episode of Nickelodeon's Guts at times, and they have a chicken laying eggs into an egg shooter. The chicken is the clip in the gun. The chicken is the clip. Fucking rule! Yeah, it does rule. And yet at the same time, you're like, Rufio died. He will never draw breath again.

There were casualities. And it doesn't really make any sense. You just kind of have to wash your hands. They brought a chicken to a gunfight. Like, forget it, Jake, it's Never Neverland. Like, I don't really know what sense. You just kind of have to like wash your hands. They brought like a gunfight. Like forget it Jake, it's Never Neverland. Like I don't really know what you're supposed to say like to all of this, except that it's like,

this is actually just a psycho drama that Peter is resolving within himself. Right? You know what I mean? Like this is all fake. Peter just needed to learn to fucking be a kid and a grownup at the same time. Like he had to liberate his kid self and, like, return to Never Never Land a whole...

Return to England, Englandland, a whole person, with his children in, right? England, Englandland. You know what I mean? Like, don't think about Never Never Land too hard as, like, a real place that children are stuck in, right? Because then you will go insane. That's correct.

But then again, you do have toodles in, like, the real world, being like, yeah, I used to live there Thank you for leaving my normal left them there who is who plays toodles? Arthur Malay He's in Mary Poppins. Oh, he's the He's the right-hand man to the the next-door neighbor. Oh, mr. Dawes, Jr. Yeah my favorite bit It is crazy that in Mary Poppins. they put up with a guy shooting a cannon every hour. Or is it just once a day that he shoots the cannon?

Uh... You know, where they all have to be like, he's about to shoot the cannon and hold all the paintings. I'm trying to remember. I think it's once a day. Maybe it's just once a day. I think it's at noon. Still, nonetheless annoying.

Noon and midnight. Just noon and midnight. Yes. You know what else is crazy? Maybe it's just once a day. I think it's at noon. It's noon, yeah. Nonetheless, in the way. Noon and midnight. Just noon and midnight. Yes. You know what else is crazy? That movie introduces them before it introduces the Darlings. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, because that's a slow entry, right? Like, let's learn about the road they live on first. It was a thing that, like, really stuck with me as a child. Like, that's a movie that is, like, so deeply imprinted in me and went to see it recently screened. I've watched it a lot when I don't. And I was just like, every single part of this is like tattooed on my brain and I've spent so much time trying to unpack.

I love Mr. Bank so much. He's such a funny motherfucker. It's one of the greatest performances. So funny. But like just that little detail of just like, and just before we even get to our main characters, we want you to know... They live next to a canon guy.

Right, it's like... And this is never gonna like pay off in a bigger way, but it's gonna continue to be here. Just texture. Yeah, just texture. Yeah, just anything else we need to say about Hook, I'm just asking. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just sort of... Just, no, Rufio rules. Rufio important. To the point where I'm on a rap song about Rufio with Dante Bascone. Now, we said we would talk about this, you and I.

So, you tell me more about this. What is the song? So, my friend, Prithvitha Amputkar, he's on this. He's probably most well known for the series Ghosts. Oh, he's part of Freestyle. Yeah, but I've known him since Freestyle. And he's in Pitch Perfect, he's in Blarney's Funny. We've done a million things together, and he's one of my best friends. And he kind of just like does singles every once in a while.

And he was like, I'm doing a song. He was like, do you want to be on any rap song I write? And I go, I don't really do that. I'm not like a rap, like I write hip-hop music, but not really for myself. And he goes, but it's Rufio with, and Dante Basco is going to be on it. I was like, okay, I'll do it.

Yeah. Like it was pretty much the way you guys pitched me hook. I was like, okay, I'm going to do that. Yeah. And we lied to him, said that Dante Basco was's gonna be on it. I was like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah. Like it was pretty much, it was pretty much the way you guys pitched me hook. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do that. Yeah, and we lied to you and said that Dante Basco was gonna be here. Dante's on it? Okay, I'm in, I'm in. And so we just wrote this song about how much Rufio rules and not going up and Dante has this kind of spoken word

section at the end about what Rufio meant to kids of just like, you know, he was like what we had. When it comes to representation, just like this absolute fucking badass. I think it's so crucial. Who dies young and for our sins and, but rules. He just rules. JD in texting with us this morning.

Do we like the cockadoodle do? I really like that moment. Sure. Okay, fine. Look, this movie's not my cup of tea But JD JD was making the case in text this morning that like part of the interesting tragedy of Rufio is the idea that he has Had to be the one to maintain this and Peter absentee He's had to be a quasi grown-up himself right that there was a sense of resentment

Right in the fact that he was left to manage this and then everyone's just the whole time waiting for like, and when is Peter gonna come? Yeah, he's like the kid who's been told he has to be the man of the house. Who has to be the man of the house. He has to be the only grown up in fucking Never Neverland. Yes, yes, and that is why when Peter returns,

he's like, I don't believe it, you're not Peter, because he left. Like, and it would just be easy, whatever. Oh, Lester Acker would do a worse job with it. And Rufio, you just really feel like this is an abandoned kid who really has a ship on his shoulder about it. Plays the emotion beautifully. It's a wonderful performance. My hat is off to the great Dante Basco. We did our very long episode on ET. Sure.

A film. A show about ET. And my favorite Steven Spielberg movie. But I think part of the power of that ending for me is the idea that it's like you are seeing on Henry Thomas's face the notion, the feeling that everything he has just experienced has like created a point of no return for him. He has been forced to mature in a way that he probably can't even put into words or process, but the intensity of the varied emotions and stakes he has felt over the last week or two that you have witnessed have like pushed him over a line in a way

that I think is Spielberg expressing this feeling he felt of his parents divorcing, disillusioned that relationship, him starting to become more of a parent figure to his younger siblings, all these things. As much as Spielberg got stuck in this permanent adolescence, he also was someone who was pushed into a kind of maturity, started his career very young, was like a young whippersnapper trying to convince old, funny-duddies that they should trust him with money, that this interesting, like, one foot in both worlds thing,

right, is like the core of Spielberg. And I think there is a feeling of insincerity in this movie that ties back to that JJ quote, that I think is probably what he bumps against in rewatching it, and that it felt like, I guess this is everyone telling me this is what I should be doing right now. And versus Jurassic Park also being a theme park rollercoaster movie where he's like, I just want to make something that's fun

that knocks audiences on their ass. I don't need to get serious and nuanced here. And the difference between those two movies is structure. Like, yeah, Jurassic Park has an incredible structure. It's so clean and so gassed. And this has like a mushy, how did we get here? Don't think about it too much. This movie has so much to explain.

Jurassic Park is like, you've been invited to look at Jurassic Park. The juice in the stuff Spielberg cares about is all still there. He just does, the structure doesn't support it. Because Jurassic Park is obviously about, uh, like, a guy who has to learn to be a parent. This is what I'm building up to here. Right? He's gotta be with these kids. So I think Alan Grant is so unlike Spielberg as a character, and yet he is finding a way to express something more clearly through Alan Grant,

which is like, hey, look, I'm just serious about my career. I just want to do my work. I don't have time for children. Right. And with Alan Grant, you could argue this is partially subtext, but Spielberg talked when he was younger about like, look, my parents did a number on me. My childhood was weird and sad.

I don't want to start that cycle again somewhere else, right? But the self-seriousness of Sam Neill playing Alan Grant with full intensity doing a real little boy's dream thing of, I dig up dinosaur schools all day. And being like, please, let me do my serious grownup business. I have no time for children. And needing to just... And the shots in that of like them seeing the dinosaurs, that's like the childlike wonder.

And it's us too. Holy shit, they did it. They made dinosaurs real. I'm looking at dinosaurs. Right, and he needs to understand how to like relate to children as people. Which is the thing that Spielberg talked about through like making ET and working with child actors,

starting to be like, oh, maybe I could be a parent. I'm like understanding it now, not thinking of them as like an alien species. Versus like Peter Pan on its face and Peter Banning even more so, feels like more of a one-to-one to Spielberg. And he was talking about this era, he had made Amblin, he had become a mogul,

he had 80 plates spinning at all times. Anytime he makes a movie, it's a big production. He's doing the math on how long am I gonna be away from my kids? Do I feel guilty for owning a cell phone? A great crime. Drag me to the Hague, right? But I just think, and maybe is what makes this film interesting.

But as someone with zero, like, childhood connection nostalgia to it, and in fact was predisposed to dislike it, I'm just like, I don't know where he's landing here. And I don't want resolution or like a cleanness, but it just feels like confused to me. Hook, Ben, anything you want to say? Obviously the Lost Boys are very Ben coded in general. We touched on most of that.

Yeah, we touched on a lot. They have skeleton armor that hangs from spider webs. Well, that's what I wanted to say. When they get battle ready. That's pretty exciting. They put on their stick armor that is hung by spider web and they just go into it. Yeah, they weren't waiting for this day. That's how you get dressed every morning.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, spider web hangings. Um, that image has really stuck with me, that visual. Another element that really stuck out to me was giant slingshot. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fun. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, they have fun. A lot of practical stuff. We're in a double dare era when this movie is being made.

It is. That's exactly it. Cool stuff like this is existing. It was the whole thing with guts. And that shit I all love. Which I watched, of course, with the aggro crag, you know, where it was like, kids don't know how to use bungee cords. And they're like, well, they're gonna use bungee cords on Guts. And some of them are gonna be good at it, and others are going to spin in the air, completely lost. Well, my level of frustration.

There's a cast member in Hamilton, Gregory Haney. He was also in a show I wrote called Bring It On the Musical. He won Global G guts as a kid. He's got the aggro crag statue. Got a piece of that radical rock. As a kid, I would have been like... The aggro crag to me was like the fucking great pyramid of Giza. I'm like, that is one of the most important places on Earth.

It is. It is indeed. And it is the most impressive thing anyone has ever told me about themselves. Full stop. The aggro crag and the Travelator impressive thing anyone has ever told me about themselves, full stop. That, the aggro crag and the travelator from Gladiators. I was just like, these are like, right, these have existed since time immemorial, I assume. Our friends at Podcast the Ride had Mo from Global Guts on their show. Whoa. And I reacted when I saw that episode title drop the way you just did. She was the referee, right?

Yeah. Let's go to Moe with the leaderboard. And she was talking about, they filmed that show at Universal Orlando. And during the day, the rest of the week, she just did various jobs around the Universal Orlando theme park and they were like, what do you mean? And she was like, yeah, that show paid nothing. And we would do like 15 episodes every two years. Right. And I'm just like, as a child, I was like, well, that's the most important person on the planet.

Yeah. One of the top five, at least. She's like the head of the UN. What do they pay her? $5 million a segment? She had to pick up work on this side? Well, I was gonna say, watching those shows as a child. You shattered my reality.

I know. When you would watch like Legends of the Hidden Temple or Nick Arcade and you'd be like, these kids are driving me crazy. If I could get in there right now, I could do that so well. And then you get older and you're just like, wait, they were like on camera in a set that doesn't make sense backwards,

looking at the wrong side of the thing. Nick Arcade, they can't see the fucking shit behind them. They're like punching a blue screen. Between that and like being able to correctly place every country in Africa in 60 seconds on Carmen Sandiego. These are impossible childhood tasks that we watched many times. I was so locked into anything with maps and... I never saw anyone beat the last thing of Carmen Sandiego.

It was kind of like how the Ultra Zord never actually appeared. It was like one time the Ultra Zord appeared. And like there was no YouTube back then. It was just the playground. It was like, watch fucking Power Rangers? They actually did the Ultra Zord. Remember they had to like call in a third Zord from a volcano to do the Ultra Zord.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just, I'm responding lightly because I never did see the Ultra Zord. It was just fun, I never saw it either. I was so mad about it. Now I watch it on YouTube. Does that make me happy?

No. This film came out December 13th, 1991. Unsurprisingly, it was a big Christmas release. Yeah, a big Christmas release. Yeah. A big family movie. And it opened to $17 million and made 120 domestic and 300 worldwide, which was plenty of money. The film was profitable,

unsurprisingly also a massive VHS hit. It just wasn't the phenomenon I'm sure Sony hoped for. You read the press excerpts from the time, and they were doing the kind of hand-wringing that we're used to today, but I think was a little more unusual at the time of being like, our back of napkin math says that the film won't reach break even until it hits $500 million. Which was not true. No, but there was the opening weekend, okay, so it's a hit, but is it a big enough hit?

This is another interesting thing, just to quickly mention, is like, this film is getting to quickly mention, is like, this film is getting off the ground, bless you, very shortly after Sony buys Columbia Tri-Star. Like this was a big flag in the ground that was part of the big maneuvering of like, we're getting Hoffman and Spielberg and Williams to do this movie together is like, we need a giant movie.

And you look at the 80s in the 90s and It's just all the studios fighting over trying to get one Spielberg movie Now he didn't have exclusive deals anywhere and I just like if we could just get one fucking Spielberg hit we'd be so good It was the fourth biggest hit of 91 like you know big head so the top film in 91 is home alone You know, it was a big hit. So the top film in 91 is Home Alone? Terminator 2. Terminator 2. Home Alone comes out in 90.

Home Alone's 90. So is, and then Home Alone 2 is 92? Don't ask me when Home Alone 2 is. Yes, it is, you're right. I think Terminator 2 is my oldest son's first R movie. Hell yeah. It's a good first R movie. It's a perfect R movie.

I was like, let's do this right. Yeah, exactly. If you're gonna see one, let's make it, let's start with the really good one. Is number two Beauty and the Beast? Number three is Beauty and the Beast. Number two, you won't get it, is Robin Hood, let's make it. Let's start with the really good stuff. Let's all fuck around. Is number two Beauty and the Beast? Number three is Beauty and the Beast. Number two, you won't get it, is Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. Which is one of those things where you're like, we forget how much of a phenomenon it was.

Not like we've forgotten it. I tried to suck the song all summer. Everything he does, he does it for you. And where's Silence of the Lambs? Silence of the Lambs is number five. Right below Hook. Yep. And right above JFK. And then you got Naked Gun,

Two and a Half, Adam's Family, Cape Fear, and Hotshots. What a ten. What an era. Number one of the box offices, Hook number two of the box office, new this week, is the opposite of Hook. Talk about an R-rated movie, an action comedy filled with swearing and guns and boobs.

Swearing and guns? Only some boobs, I think. But it's just like, it's a lurid ass 90s action movie. Is it like a Shane Black? Yeah, you got that right. Is it Last Boy Scout? That's right. Okay, there we go. Tony Scott's The Last Boy Scout.

Bullet Through the Football. Bruce Willis, Damon Wynn's Fun, a really peppy movie. Feels like that movie really had some, went to the bathroom and came out feeling really energized. You know what I mean? That movie took a very effective nap during its lunch break. Last Boy Scout is also new this week. Interesting counter programming to talk, right?

It's like, you know, anyway. Number three of the box office, it's a sci-fi sequel. It's sci-fi sequel. It's a sci-fi sequel. It's a solid hit. In December 19th. We've covered it on this podcast. We've covered it on this podcast. It's not a Trek.

It is a Trek. It is a Trek. Is it the Final Frontier? Nope. It's the Undiscovered Country. Star Trek VI, the Undiscovered Country. Do you care about Star Trek one? No, not a Star Trek.

You've got a lot of interests. I feel like Star Trek would be like a lot for you to take on. That's my one big pop culture blind spot me. It's like doctor who in Star Trek I just I missed the boat you track it always much to catch up on I've been trying to correct it slowly over the last couple Years yeah number four the box office. It's a big family comedy big smash hit the sequels way better the sequels way Oh, it's the Addams Family the Adams right family, right? Which is one of the best movies ever made,

but of course Addams Family Values is the single best film ever made. I like The Addams Family. It's just I do feel like Addams Family Values just sort of has everything down. Yeah, it's incredible. But I think sometimes you undersell the first one a little bit.

And you know what, I haven't seen it in a long time. It's really good. It's got great stuff. Yeah, Values is the great role. The greatest of all time. I mean, do you agree? I mean, like, I really feel like... Yes, I agree. He is one of those guys where it's like,

if I had a time machine, I would like to go see every, like, Broadway role we ever play. Absolutely. I would want to go see him in Meryl Streep at the Delacorte in Central Park. In Tainy, the Shrew or whatever. Yes.

It is the shame with him that you're like, there is a handful of fantastic film performances, but if you dig in, people are like, yeah, but like 90% of his important work happened on the stage. And you'll never be able to see. He's one of the most important Puerto Rican actors to ever live, right?

Like one of the earliest Puerto Rican success stories in America, like on a whatever, on that scale, on the sort of A-list. Going to listen to him just singing some crazy, charming shit is Two Gentlemen of Verona. Had you ever listened? It's the same composers as Hair, the musical. It's like a rock version of Two Gentlemen of Verona.

And it's just Raoul Julia being charming as hell over, like, banging beats. Him and... One from The Heart. That is just like bottled liquid charm. He's very, very charming. He is. And he's great and he's in that movie, which is out and is making a lot of money. Number five, The Box Office. It's an animated film.

Is it Beauty and the Beast? Beauty and the Beast. Beauty and the Beast. It's also good. Do you like Beauty and the Beast? I eat six eggs. I eat six eggs. You must like Beauty and the Beast.

I love Beauty and the Beast. Right, right. Yeah, right. The Beast is so good. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's an absolute stone cold glass. I mean, look, we talked about it on this show, but it's just like when you actually zoom into...

It's a recurring theme in your work and the figures that you're obsessed with, but the level of work that Ashwin put out in such a short period of time is crazy and the impact and the lasting, like, echoes of it. It's just insane. That's the one where he comes in late, right? Where he's busy with Aladdin, and they're like, can you come fucking take a look at this Beauty and the Beast that's not working? Like, right? Like, he, like... Yeah, yeah. They brought Ashman and Minkinon, I believe,

onto that already in progress. And then they wrote this crazy opening number where by the end of it, you understand everyone and everything in the town. She fucking, it's just ridiculous. She goes in there and is like, let me tell you about Jack and the Beanstalk. The guy owns the library and she's trying to tell him

about Jack and the Beanstalk, he knows about it. It's an uneducated town. He's just in it for the money, for that sweet, sweet library money. No, but he writes like those three movies in like 18 months, basically. Right? Yeah, yeah. And basically simultaneously.

I recently watched Oliver and Company for the first time with my daughter. I like that film quite a lot. It's fun. It's fun. And he's got the one song. That was the only Hispanic representation in the Disney canon for many years. Cheech. This is torture.

Chain me to the wall. That's it. That's a good cheat. I've seen that movie. That one I saw in me to the wall. That's it. It's a good Cheech. I've seen that movie. That one I saw in the theaters for sure. And of course it's very different. Now you also have Cheech Mariners Ramon in the Cars universe.

It's true, it's true. They brought him back. I'm very happy to hear that. Also in the top 10 you've got My Girl. Oh sure. Another family classic of our youth. You've got Cape Fear, not a family classic. Well it is, it is.

It's about a family movie. It's about a family. It's a family film. You, it is, it is. It's about a movie. It's a family film. You've got Four of the Boys, the Bette Midler James Kahn musical dramedy. Lynn is saluting. Absolutely. You have a little movie about a little guy called Fievel going west.

That was one of the earliest films I saw in theaters. That I definitely saw in theaters. And you have the adorable John Hughes comedy, Curly Sue with Jim Belushi. Which I don't think I've ever seen. And Sis Eisenberg. That's Jessie Eisenberg's sister is Curly Sue. Is that right? Is it really?

Yeah. Really? I thought it was... I thought Curly Sue was someone else. Sis Eisenberg was obviously the Pepsi girl and the girl from Pauly, which I swear by. Is she not also Curly Sue? She's not Curly Sue. Oh my God.

Pauly Eisenberg. I conflated them all into one delightful curly haired girl. Because I was sort of like, she's too old. She's too young, right? She's a little too young. Allison Porter is Curly Sue. I've never seen Curly Sue. What's it about?

I think I've never had either. What's it about? I'm doing this in my mind purely from the poster. She's a con artist? She's like a cutesy orphan. Yeah. Alison Porter, original cast member of the Broadway revival of A Chorus Line. Of the Broadway revival of A Chorus Line, okay. That seems to mostly do.

I don't know from the Broadway revival of A Chorus Line. Okay, well, I'll have to tell you, though. That's what's top ten at the box office. I like the different snobbery we've seen on display here. We have the anti-Hook household and the like, a revival cast. The original cast pulled it off. Okay, Kelly Bishop.

Lynn, this is what keeps the show fresh after 10 years. It makes me so happy. The dynamics are constantly switching around. It's what keeps me listening. Well, that's very nice of you to say. And it's been very nice of you to join us to discuss Hook. Thank you. I'm sorry, I couldn't bring more primary sources this time.

I just really brought my own feelings about Rufio. You just brought your own feelings. You brought your truth, you brought your truth, and that's all we asked for on this show. Thank you. I was talked out of bringing a Hook to the recording. We should have done it. Which I'm kind of bummed about.

I think we could have spent a little time just discussing hooks in general. Ben, I don't want to embarrass you, but I just clocked something. Did you hide the chains because Lynn was coming? No, they're, they're at the gallery. Okay. Yeah. What chains?

I, uh, then usually as a display of chains. Okay. My friend created, um, a sculpture for the office, which is, it's a chain display. It's various different sizes of chains sort of hung from some pipes. Ben loves chains and pipes. It's just an aesthetic that I've always really appreciated

in cinema and just kind of in general. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but whips and chains excite you. Yes. Precisely. God. Wow. Well, that's amazing. chains excite you. Yes. Precisely. Wow. Well, that's amazing. What a wordsmith.

Oh, I wish I could take the credit. That's pink. But no, I would have had a spotlight on it. Yeah, okay. I just want to make sure. I just want to make sure. I don't want you to be hiding your truth. No, not at all.

I'm also, as we're saying goodbye, so I will keep it very short, remembering my other connection to Hook, as we're saying goodbye, so I will keep it very short, remembering my other connection to Hook, as he mentioned, whether we should have brought Hooks to this recording. I played Captain Hook in the sixth grade play. Whoa. I was Captain Hook, and it was like, it's the old-timey Broadway version, which has a weird hodgepodge of, like,

Rodgers and Hammerstein contributed some material, but then they brought in Ringers to write other songs. It's like, it's actually a weirdly collaborative score. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was.

I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was.

I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think that's where I was. I think be my look going forward. I'll wait till this grows in. I'm almost surprised you didn't play Pan. Yeah, well, Evan Newman was just a much better singer than me.

Well, I mean, you're not gonna beat him. I'm not gonna beat Evan Newman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a lot easier to get the financing with him as Pan. It's true, he was a great Peter Pan. He's a wonderful actor. I feel like classically Peter Pan played by an adult woman, right?

Like that's, yes. That's true. The sort of Alisson Williams approachically Peter Pan played by an adult woman, right? Like that's true. Yes. A lot of Jan Alison Williams approach in Peter Pan Live. Yes. Sort of notorious moment in pop culture. In Peter Pan history, yes. Lynn, I feel ridiculous asking this, but anything you want to plug? Is there anything relative to when this is coming out that feels...

The only crossover, I have nothing to plug. I'm here because I adore you guys. You're too kind. But I did have a chance to talk with Frank Marshall because I did write a musical adaptation of a movie early in his filmography, The Warriors. Absolutely. Oh, yes.

So I wrote a... I will say, The Warriors, the vibe of The Warriors does feel like a... You are maturing up from Rufio and the Lost Boys to The Warriors. I want to make it clear, the Warriors exist before- Warriors are also very stylized gangs. But I imagine you watch this first and then discover the Warriors?

God bless. I wish. Again, I will refer you to my unsupervised childhood. I saw Warriors when I was four years old. Wild. Like, older brothers VHS, like, friends older brothers VHS cassette. And like that, I imprinted on that as like, oh, that's what where I live is like at night. And like, needed to write a whole musical with my friend Issa Davis to like work it out.

I saw, uh, uh, Cinemal Mats The Wiz again recently, which is one of my absolute favorite movies and one of the movies I've watched the most in my life. I was an Adapro backup in The Wiz in sixth grade too. That's wild. But I had a similar thing where for the first time I think I unlocked why I'm so hyperfixated on that movie. And it was, I think this movie spoke to the way I felt as a child

living in a city I love that feels inherently hostile. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. If I'd seen The Wiz sooner, I'd have been printed on that. But I saw The Warriors first. And so, yeah, so anyway, that's an album. You can get it now. A lot of amazing people are on it. Yes. Miss Lauren Hill, Ghostface, Nas. It's just great. We got a crazy because it's an album and not a thing people have to do eight times a week. We just got the all-star cast of our dreams to play different parts on it.

I mean, it's awesome. I've listened to it many times. Hopefully if it goes to Broadway, you can book Eric Newman. I hear if Pan wasn't... God damn it. Evan would be great. Evan would go on to play... I directed West Side Story my senior year in high school and he was my riff. Hey.

Yeah, no, no, Evan's the real deal. He's great. Excited for everything coming up, whatever it is, be it that or other things. Excited for our coming up, whatever it is, to be at that and other things. Excited for our next episode, Griffin, which is... Dress Park. Jurassic Park. What's that about? Dinosaurs.

With the great Sean Fantasy. The great Sean Fantasy. Well, enjoy. Quite good, that episode. That was recorded 18 years ago. It was recorded a long ass fucking time ago. Weirdly, that episode is when we first met. We meet on mic in that episode. And we're like, should we do a podcast?

I am actually excited to listen to it because I have no memory of that conversation. I'm glad you've frozen Amber and you will... That's right, exactly. That episode will be brought out of Amber. It is really frozen Amber. By Mr. DNA or whatever his name is. Thank you for joining us again. Thank you so much for being here.

That's it. Poke, come on, take us out. Bang. Yeah. Thank you for joining us again. Thank you so much for being here That's it. Come on. Take us out Thank you all for listening Please remember to rate and review Tune in next week for Jurassic Park and as always Lynn, I'm sorry to do this, but one final piece of housekeeping I must ask this this is this is not I just need this is purely question. This is no request It's a question. I need to close a loop that started on another podcast the great doughboys podcast I don't know if you're familiar our favorite podcast. They review chain restaurants Nick Weiger and Mike Mitchell Sure funny sure I recently when I was in Los Angeles went and did an episode on Chuck E. Cheese with them

Okay, there is a song that plays in the rotation at Chuck E. Cheese now. That is 100% there is a song that plays in the rotation at Chuck E. Cheese now that is 100% Chuck E. Cheese doing Lin-Manuel Miranda. No shit. I haven't been to a Chuck E. Cheese in ten years. It's called The Perfect Day. And the Doughboyz associate producer, Emilio Marino said, I think they got the real Lin for this. It sounds so much like him.

I am so sorry to burst this bubble. I promised I would get an answer. I have never heard of this song in my life. So I just want to conclusively for the record. And I try to avoid taking my children to Chuck E. Cheese whenever possible. I can't lose them in the pits. But we just need to settle this issue.

You have never written an original song for the Chuck E. Cheese restaurant. I have never had the pleasure of working with Charles Entertainment Cheese. Yet. Yet. Never say never. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims.

Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Bardy Salinas and our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. and is Minick.