Blank Check with Griffin & David - Meet Joe Black with Richard Lawson

Episode Date: July 7, 2024

He’s hot. He’s got frosted tips. He loves peanut butter. His lil swimmers may or may not look like skulls. He’s death, baby! And we’re meeting him this week! Vanity Fair’s Richard Lawson returns to the pod to chat about 1998’s three hour long “symphonic metaphysical romance” MEET JOE BLACK. How does this film play in a post-Succession, “eat the rich” context? How do we feel about the infamous Jamaican patois scenes? What are our memories of the weekend the Phantom Menace trailer came out in theaters? All that and more awaits you on the other side of the bridge. Read Chad Hartigan’s article on Meet Joe Black  Read Richard’s work at Vanity Fair Listen to Little Gold Men Listen to Still Watching This episode is sponsored by: DrinkTrade.com/Check (CODE: CHECK) ExpressVPN (ExpressVPN.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack Love is passion, obsession, someone you can't live without. I say fall head over heels. Find someone who can love like crazy and who will love you the same way back. How do you find him? Well, you forget your head and you listen to your heart. And I'm not hearing any heart because the truth is, honey, there's no sense living

your life without this. To make the journey and not fall deeply in love, well, you haven't lived a life at all. But you have to try. Because if you haven't try, if you don't... Just keep going. You have to try. Because if you haven't tried, you haven't podcasted. That whole time I was staring at Griffin, dewy-eyed like Claire Fellani.

I thought you were going to hum the score underneath. I think I would have embarrassed myself. I think you would have nailed it. It's hard to do Hopkins doing 50% of an American accent. I don't think it's easy to do Hopkins period. He's supposed to be from Newfoundland in this. He's got this mode that I feel like we all just accept where he's like, I just I sound like Anthony Hopkins. I'm not full Welsh. Right. I was about to ask that. What is the most American he's ever like had to play?

Richard Nixon. Right? Am I wrong? I guess so. But that right. He played that as like a not greatest American. Richard, ten comedy points. But Nixon, he kind of like, look here, you know, I'm yeah, I'm from California, but he still sort of has the wealth.

I agree. Who is he in the world's fastest Indian? That's a pretty American. In that film, I believe he played the world's fastest Indian. He played a talking car in that one. That one's actually about a talking car. Acting credits. List of Anthony Hopkins performances.

Let's just roll down this list and like, is there someone called like cowboy Jack in here? You know what I mean? Like, am I forgetting about someone? You've introduced David in the past, the blank check Hall of Fame, certain actors across our nine years, we've covered across multiple mini series. Right. And you never, it's not that one director liked them. Lots of directors. And we covered a weird array. And if you look at the six performances or whatever, we have covered a weird swath of Hopkins now. You did the whole Hearts in Atlantis season. We did one season just.

Early podcast days. We did one Hearts in Atlantis minute. Yeah. Where we went through it one minute at a time and pretended it was the only Stephen King adaptation ever made. No, we've done Silence of the Lambs. We've done Amistad. Sure.

This. He's played two presidents. Right. Spoiler, we have already recorded our Elephant Man episode, which will obviously come in the fall. An excellent performance. And kind of his first movie breakthrough, at least an American film. Obviously Silence of the Lambs is like complete transcendence.

I think there's one other, well, we've done the Thors on Patreon. No acting required. You have the Humanstors on Patreon, no acting required. You have the Human Stain Patreon coming up. If we did a Philip Roth Patreon, I'm just saying, there's juice there. The only problem is all the movies are bad. Juice?

Did you say? Yeah, there's juice there. I just wanted to clarify you said juice. I've been fired as a professor for saying there was juice in the Roth series. I'm an American professor. I have never seen the Human Stain. Looking at-ftree on Patreon charts, podcast charts rather, if we did a Philip Roth series, we'd probably go up to number one. I think.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but we were like, this man had no flaws. Right. That's how he gets in the book. These guys are pissing on the third layer.

Would be inviting us on. $5 million a month. You want to talk about Philip Roth? The pod against America. Yeah. I mean, I read it. Finally these guys are pissing on the third where would be inviting a son at five million dollars The pod against America's yeah, I mean it writes itself. Are there any other Hopkins we've covered impossible to on patreon sure Ultimate paycheck mode. Yeah, he really gave a shit in that one. Oh man. Did he care so much about the performance he gave. Um... Amistad, we have yet to do Zorro, though we must. Yeah, we are the two Popes, that's a competitive advantage. We are.

You and I. Which is which? Which is which? Who's Benny and who's Frankie? Yeah. They should have called that movie Benny and Frankie. Have you not done Dracula? No, we've never done Coppola.

That feels kind of inevitable in some form or another that we will cover that movie. Or Patreon series Hot Monsters Who Fuck has been my other pitch for a while. You haven't done Ed Zwick. We'll eventually do Ridley Scott. We haven't lit the Zwick. We'll do Ridley Scott and do another Hannibal. Sure. We could do Oliver Stone and get some Alexander in there.

And some tricky Richmond. My favorite Hawkins performance. We're forgetting of course Beowulf. There it is. There we go. That's right. Well, it's okay that we forgot that. He's in it.

David, come on. I just don't remember that he's in it. Wolfman we'll do one day. Joe Johnston. He's in that. Sure. Hot Monsters who don't talk. Does he that he's in it. Wolfman will do one day. Joe Johnston. He's in that. Sure. Hot Monsters who don't talk. Does he know he's in it? Probably not. Spoiler for those who haven't seen the Joe Johnston Wolfman.

Anthony Hopkins turns into a wolf in that movie. And? Fights his wolf son. And? Does he do a good job? I want to wager that he is not the one under the makeup. You're kidding. I want to say that Anthony Hopkins was not really in the last 20 minutes of narrative of that film. But his character wolfs out.

I think we'll do James Gray someday. Armageddon time, a wonderful performance by Tony H. A performance I gave my blankie award for Best Supporting Actor. I mean, think we'll definitely do a Michael Bay series one day and he introduced us to The Last Knight. And introduced us to Cogman. His psychopath butler Cogman. The human-sized robot who does not transform and beats fish. We've overlapped with him many times and we'll'll overlap with him many times more but he has conclusively Never convincingly played an American in his 50 years

But what I would argue is a perfect example of someone where that doesn't fucking matter There was a break Brian Cox in succession. Yeah, there was another actor. I was just thinking about Where I'm like, I don't think they've ever actually successfully done an accent that overrides their national, natural speaking voice, and I don't care. Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson's a really good example. A lot of these guys, it's just like, it's gravitas, and it's also that they attack these things with a lack of embarrassment. And I think if you don't see the actor struggling with the accent,

you just accept it. Like, confidence goes a long way. I think the accent thing is is we just have to buy it in the movie. Yeah. People who get really hung up on the direct accuracy, like Jody Comer and the Bike Riders. If that's not exactly Chicagoland,

like I don't really care, I like it in the movie. I could leave it in the movie. David was very eager to start this episode because as he said, this is one of the richer texts we've covered in a long time. I agree with this. We're starting Hopkins heavy, but I want to put forth this this point about this movie.

In ninety nine point nine percent of actors careers, this performance would be at their absolute top tier, even in a movie that was this derided and largely forgotten. I hear what you're saying. Right. Ninety nine point nine percent of people putting in this performance, you'd be like, holy shit, he tapped into something incredible in this. Just the absolute presence. And Hopkins standard of quality is basically so good that you're just like, yeah, this is in the top 50%.

Maybe. I think this is truly seen as in his kind of phoning it in era. He's so fucking good in this. Do you think he's good in the film? You can say no. I think he's good in the film. Do you think he's good in the film? You can say no. I think he's good in a good movie. Yeah. Wow, this podcast. Ben, you're gonna have to resist. What's up?

Did you like me, Joe Black? Which will introduce the show and the guest and everything else. You seem a little out of sorts, Ben. Oh no. Ben. Yeah. I just locked into it.

Ben, Ben Hoss. For the listener, Ben is standing still, kind of looking at us a little oddly and speaking slowly. His tips are not frosted, but imagine if they were. You seem a little confused by the room you're in right now, as if suddenly. And you know what? I just picked up on the reference you were making in your sound check, Richard. You weren't even here or were you here? I was fucking right here. I forget!

Yeah. Let's just go around, I wanna say, I think Anthony Hopkins is good in a good movie. David? Did I like the movie? I think he's good in a good movie, yes. Yeah. Okay.

Listen, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography. David, what are you struggling with? How are we gonna talk about this? No, we can talk about it. I think there's lots to say.

It's just kind of crazy that we're all like, coming into land, three planes in a row, with like, good movie, and the air traffic control is like, what's going on? Go around, George. Your letterbox blog was, what if I don't hate this? And it felt like the Internet started sharpening their knives. And perhaps that's a better way of putting it. Like, I unilaterally do not hate anything about this movie.

Not but like not since Marwin have I been watching a movie being like, I can feel my appreciation for this bubble. You're insane for that one. I maintain you are still insane, but this is a podcast about filmography. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers, such as making a blockbuster so big, Netflix is making sequels to it fucking 40 years later still.

Has anyone seen that thing, Axel F? Is it out? For all I know, it's out. That's the thing with those Netflix. They just did their big premiere and everyone's on their fucking press tour and I think it comes out like a week from when we're recording. Yeah, it comes out July 3rd. Yeah. You know what I fucking hate? All the posters they have up around New York City for Beverly Hills Cop Axel F. Okay.

Say coming exclusively or streaming exclusively on Netflix, plans starting at $6.99 a month. Yeah, what a bummer. There's now like a dollar sign underneath their fucking posters. Great company. Anyway, they're given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Boy, does this qualify. This is this this check was so blank.

It was clear. Yes. It was just like there was not a check. Actually, it was just. Yes. It was just like there was not a check actually. It was just... They just opened a vault and were like, Right, they were like, here's the blank check, but they were just handing over air.

Pure air. It's mini-series on the films of Martin Brest. It's called Podverly Hills Cast. And today we are finally meeting Joe Black. At long last. Is this the first movie you guys have done where literally a studio had got fired because of it? Well, this is a great question.

I do think that studio heads have been fired for some of the things we've caught. Let's pull out though. This is the same season. Fall 98 is the same season as Babe Pig in the City. And that is the two punch that gets them fired. It's both movies we've covered now. Right. I was reading, I think he was fired before Babe came out, but I think it was such

a disaster. Like, I think it was tracking badly or something. Yeah. And so they were just like, you're out of here. Yeah. And that was it. Who are we talking about here? Casey Silver, I think his name is? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He should have met Joe Black. His career sure did. Why settle for Silver when you can meet Joe Black? I think I've seen this movie. Ben is staring very intensely at a cup. As if he's never seen anything like this.

You're kind of like the Bluey episode, born yesterday, I'm just gonna say. That's kind of what you're doing too. I know no one here has seen it, but just for the listeners. Ben looks incredible today. He looks good. I don't know what it is, but he's glowing.

His eyes. He looks dead, but good. He just said nutted butter to himself. There's like the lights like are catching your eyes so beautifully. Or I guess the other way around maybe both. And when I asked you guys how you know Ben you were really caging about it and said he's just an associate. And we took 20 minutes to say his full name.

Yeah. Ben. Ben. Good name. Oh yeah. I like that name. Mr. Hasl- Ben. Okay. So Shout out for the name Ben. Mr. Haas, Ben Haasley. Okay, so that would make his name Ben Haasley.

Okay, okay, all right, all right. Just that there's a peanut gallery being like, Joe, oh, Joe, Joe, that's a name. No one can deny it. And is there any more or are we done? He's a pro. Pro, he's a pro-doer. That's enough of that.

I don't even want you to start on that road. Three hours later. Grip and finishes. That has to be the nickname. It's just meet Ben Hosley. Meet Ben Hosley. Fine. Sure.

Great. Ben's posture is incredible today, by the way. I just need to keep calling out certain physical attributes of Ben's body language. The way he's smiling is more Clifford than... This is true. He's doing a ghillie, I would say. It's a ghillie, yeah. That's what it is. I miss ghillie. Bring her back.

Yeah. To do a Nick Weigert bit. Bring her back. Bring her back. Bring her back. Our guest today. Return to the show for... Oh.

You want me to check? I don't know, actually. It might be the 10th time. Oh no, it's more than that. No, it's more than that. Really? Yeah. 12?

Let's see. One, No, it's more than that. Really? 12? Let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13th time! A Goodman's dozen. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, cause you forget Button. You and a smambulant pit are- I didn't say, you got a bit of a running theme now.

Yeah, I'm locked in on Brad Pitt's weirder epics. Yeah. Oh, can I do Legends of the Fallen? Sure. Yeah. For our Zwick series. It is it is I kept doing this mental exercise while watching this movie. It just speaks to how like the

particularity of the time in which a movie comes out. Where it is in everyone's career. Where the industry is at. How audiences are feeling. Where you're like, you could absolutely see the reputations, or let's not even say reputation. The at the time receptions of Ben Button and Joe Black being completely flipped. Sure. That's interesting.

For both movies, I would argue existing in a current similar status in legacy. You could be like, oh yeah, me, Joe Black got nominated for like 13 Academy Awards, made $150 million and everyone is kind of puzzled by it now. Right. Versus Benjamin Button came out, was a big flop and was sort of totally blank by awards bodies. I guess so. Both had sort of fra blank by awards bodies. I guess so. Both had sort of fraught productions. Right.

Like, yeah. They both exist in a very similar zone now. It's true. Except Benjamin Button was not on my cable, my college cable movie channel. So I haven't seen that. And I believe this was my 10th time seeing it. Your college cable movie channel? There was a channel at college.

Boston College TV. Well, it was many universities paid for the same thing. I'm sorry, your college cable movie channel? There was a channel at college. Well, it was many universities paid for the same thing. And they added like four or five new movies every once a month. I think it was once a month and they would just play on repeat. ColorArts was like this. So like it was Hannibal one year. It was, uh, Meets of Black was definitely on there for some reason, even though that was years after I was in college or like like, the movie came out before I was in college.

I feel like this thing was on TNT all the time. I've watched sections of it. I'd never watched it in full before. Oh really? Oh, I've seen this movie so many times. And part of it is, I've said this in other episodes leading up to this in the series. Richard Lawson, by the way, Vanity Fair, Little Gold Man. Happy to be back. Hi Richard. As such a breast fan, who's so dismayed by the latter half of his career,

As such a Breast fan, who's so dismayed by the latter half of his career, I've always resisted watching this because I wanted to believe I would secretly think it's good. But there's the Schrodinger's cat effect of like, if I watch it, I'll know for sure. And what if I don't like it? I think the thing about watching this movie in the context of how you guys are watching all of these movies is you're like, oh no, Gilly is the thing that did it. Like this was probably a heartbreak for him, Joe Black was, for Breast, but like, and a frustration, but like in the fullness of his career,

this is not what killed him. But also, Scent of a Woman is a disaster. Well, that's true too, that's not a good movie, but it was a success. It was a success. And it won a big Oscar. It was the wrong kind of success. This film is better than Scent of a Woman.

Unquestionably. I think so. Right out of the gate. For success. This film is better than Scent of a Woman. Unquestionably. I think so. Right out of the gate. For one thing, it's not called Scent of a Woman. For one thing, Al Pacino never once yells about pussy in this movie. He actually does. You just can't hear him. He's just he's in the background.

He's way. Yeah. He's not mic'd. He's yelling. He's just running around. I wanted a hooah from the other audience or something, but yeah, other than that. No, that movie is horrendous. And you're just sort of like, how the fuck did Breast make this?

Whereas for all of its peculiarities, this movie makes sense as Martin Breast trying to make a prestige film. Sensible Woman feels like all of his instincts are off. And this is like warts and all in line with the first four films of his first three films of his career. It certainly feels very tied to going in style. Hot Tomorrow isn't going in style, baby.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the first four. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a little less so to the, you know, fun movies that entertained people, which I cannot deny this movie is not fun and entertain nobody.

No, but I do. Like, you know, those are the issues with the film. I think Sensible Woman is like, modeling in ways that make me want to vomit, and its comedy is galling. I think this movie, what is now its main legacy is clips of it going viral and people are like, what the fuck is this? I didn't even know this movie existed. Is this a bit? And in context of the movie, all of those scenes are admittedly insane, but within the context,

you understand the intentional comedy that Martin Brest is aiming for there. Whether or not he pulls it off, you can question it. But if you take those scenes on their own, you're like, how could this ever make sense? And watching in context, you're like, this makes sense from the guy who made Midnight Run and is now trying to evolve to something more emotional,

more contemplative, but still has comedic bones in his body. Yeah, it was just like, I mean, on the one hand, it's like, okay, was Meets Joe Black dated? Was it an old fashioned epic at a time when like Oscar plays were getting a little bit more modern? The Indie Revolution had taken over, studios weren't doing well at the Oscars anymore, movies were getting rougher.

But also there was like, I mean, not that this is some big success, but there was like bagger vans around the same time. Like this movie was not alone in its like big sweeping magical realism. Titanic wins Best Picture the same year this movie comes out, which is kind of the last of those, I would say. It's the last of them to actually work with the Oscars on that level.

Big, grand, broad, emotional. Depends how you feel about it. Shakespeare in Love. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, sure. Shakespeare, but Shakespeare in Love's obviously funny. That's the difference. So much more of a comedy versus this being so po-faced. And this didn't have, you know, a monster, albeit good awards campaigner behind it, you know, like Shakespeare and Love did. And Lord of the Rings, Gladiator, those movies are very old fashioned, but they're the old epics, they're the huge production design.

Technical modernity, that's the thing. Right. This is a movie about movie stars looking at each other. And very expensive practical sets. Yes. And same things with deep meaning. And just being like, we demand this be taken seriously. As Thomas Newman fucking wilds out like animal. It's like someone melted a James L. Brooks script on a radiator,

and it just kind of spread out. It's like honey didn't. It's like this kind of like ad like adages of like wisdoms. They were like, what does that actually mean though? But it's just slowed down. It's just everything is. Yeah. And it's, it's an unbearably earnest film in a way that I think can just make some

people like absolutely choke. I will say, you know, I think it was my 10th time watching it. Uh, I've seen it so many times. I like the, I like a lot. It looks so good. I liked that they were spending all this money on it. I like that a lot of it was filmed in Rhode Island where I live. But

And it's filmed. The final scene is filmed at your house. Yeah, no, it's a documentary about my dad. Yeah. But I had never really been emotional with it before. Watching it this morning when when Forlani at the end says, because she's accepting that her dad's gone, I wish you could have met my father, which is an objectively insane thing to say to someone you just met. Yep.

I burst into tears. I will say, and we're going to talk about this a lot, the final scene, the second of two scenes between Brad Pitt and the Jamaican woman made me cry this morning. And that should be impossible considering what Brad Pitt is doing in that scene. He's doing Cameron Diaz's original voice from The Counselor. Yep. And I just think the profundity of her performance and the directness of the writing there, it was one of those things where usually I do not cry at movies unless something is building for minutes upon minutes upon minutes.

It really has to accumulate. There was some turn within two lines where suddenly I was misty. Thank you. David! Yes? You were sleeping. Oh, I really want to be. Nodding off on Mike again.

Uh-huh. You gotta change your life David. Okay. You gotta pull it together. Okay. And you know what in fact? You gotta change the way you experience coffee at home. How do I do that?

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So Griff, you'd never seen this film. Nope, not in full. I had also never seen it because I never had a week to devote to it. It's just difficult to clear out a week. I didn't, I thought you guys were both like, like versed in this movie. Nope, I knew that he got hit by the cars and I knew that he said everything was gonna be ivory

No, it was Sebastian the crab Choosing to do Martin breast before David Lynch ended up winning March Madness What Twin Peaks the return will now only be the second longest thing we've covered on main feed It'll also be the second thing in which someone effects an insane accent. No reason. I don't want to spoil anything for you. Yeah I knew this movie to be sort of legendarily kind of slow and Sleepwalking expensive and sort of right lavish and I knew it to be kind of the peak of like Brad Pitt is like pretty boy Who kind of just stands there and like when he's making fight club?

He's like I can't do this movie starting crisis I have to stop like this and seven years into bed There's there's this all right, you know these kinds of movies where it's right specifically the period between his seven Twelve monkeys year and his fight club year, there's four years there where he cannot figure out what kind of movie star he wants to be. It was grim. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, Forky comes in, you know, I've got this on, obviously. Asks a question. Says, what are you watching? Yeah. She's like, why have you been in here all day watching one movie? And I'm like, well. Your beard has gone gray.

Right, exactly. Spilling down the floor. Why are there, why are you sitting in the couch with there's spider webs all around? watching one movie. And I'm like, well, uh, your beard is gone. Right. Exactly. Spilling down. Why are there spy? Why are you sitting in the couch with their spider webs all around? Your child is like walking out of the door in her high school graduation. Right.

It's like the mayo truck commercial. Fucking click in here. I think it's a mustard day and he has commercial go on. And I'm like, yeah, well, the deal with this movie is that it's, uh, you know, it's, it's this like very slow moving kind of Tony drama. And then once in a while it makes a choice so insane that you're like, what is that? That is what it is. But I think I got it.

I think I got what he was going for. I don't think this is a movie I would tell people to watch. I don't think this movie is totally successful. I agree. I understand why this film did not bowl people over in 1998. Absolutely. But I get what he's going for.

But I do think I look at certain prestige movies that were very popular with the Oscars. I mean, this is kind of to my Benjamin Button point, that were popular with the Oscars and box office successes in the 90s that you look at now and go, what the fuck was everyone thinking? I mean I was a big fan of the movie at the time, but like this is a better movie than American Beauty

It's a better movie than American. This is a better movie than American. It's a better movie than scent of a woman I was you might have more to say but not in a good way You know what I mean American Beauty just kind of like is of its moment in a way This city to this movie's focus and and what he's sort of digging into. I also, I was thinking of another movie that comes out a year after this and is a huge hit and gets a bunch of Oscars. And now everyone looks back on it and is like, what the fuck were we thinking? Green Mile?

No. Yes. Yeah, Green Mile. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, that movie could have just as easily been received at the time of its release, the way this movie was. I'll say this though, Griffin.

People have... I have noticed... I have mentioned before that the Green Mile is ponderous and bad and kind of insane. And people have expressed surprise at that take because I think it did become something of a cable classic. Yeah. You know, like... Well, Derebond had that contract with TMT where he was like, he will show all my movies movies right? Yeah, and it's sort of lodged in people's brains like the birds to me The green mile is shitty like you know you look at that 1999 Oscar crop versus the 1999 movie crop And you're like how the hell did that's me?

Right yeah versus 98 being a pretty good Oscar year I generally wonder if this movie would have been received a bit more warmly in its day. Had I'm not really exaggerating, had Brad Pitt had a different hairstyle? Possibly. I just want to restate. I'm not saying I'm surprised people didn't go for this. No, I'm not either. I'm only surprised in perspective when I hold it up against other movies I am astonished people went for.

Yeah, it's not nearly as bad as reputation suggests, which is always kind of a frustrating thing to discover. But the hairstyle thing, Benjamin Button, the big scene where he comes back and it's the first turning point in the movie where they're going like aggressively de-aging him, where he's crested the midpoint, right? And now we have to get Brad Pitt young. And I think the key image that was like the money drop shot of the trailer was him walking into the

dance studio and he looks perfect quote unquote. And David Fincher said the thing we aimed for was me Joe Black. Yeah. As much as that's his hated movie, it's like this was the perfect snapshot of Brad Pitt at his peak beauty before he starts getting so uncomfortable with it that he's like, I need to fuck it up in some way in every movie. And if I'm not fucking up my look, I'm throwing off my energy. I refuse to be a Kindle anymore. It was him at-

And he said he became a Kindle. Yeah. He became a Kindle. You can read him. It's him at peak pretty. And then some would say that peak hot was Fight Club. Yeah. Right.

But that's a huge shift, that he stops being delicate and he starts trying to- It's like when I first saw DiCaprio in The Departed. And I was like, wait, he's got like scruff and he looks kind of like he hasn't slept in two days. And I was like, this is a whole new thing, but I'm into it. You know? And that's kind of what Pitt was about to do after this. It's nowhere near as good as the two performances I'm about to cite.

But I think this performance, in terms of the arc of the careers... I'm excited. No, get excited arc of the careers. I'm excited. No, get excited. And the directors that were, whatever, is very paired with DiCaprio and The Departed and Tom Cruise and Eyes Wide Shut, where it's like three guys who are like, I'm trying to level up. I'm trying to break out of my thing. I'm handing myself over to someone.

And part of what's compelling about the performance is they don't quite have control of what they're doing Right there being used in a way part of the like energy of the performance is them struggling if that makes sense I think pits performance and this is fascinating because I think at times he is transcendent Lee good and I think at times he is like borderline inept and I would basically say the times he is Transcendently good is when he's playing inept and when he's trying to play transcendence He is inept. Yeah, I go with that But there are moments of such raw power in what he's doing that like he talks about I was lost

I was stumbling. I was sad. I was going through personal things My eye was off the ball every moment in this that works is because of that. Is because of him not having a handle on this. And Breast kind of understanding the weird, like empty beauty of him. Yeah, that makes sense. I think Breast is the answer to everything. He seems like he's just kind of giving himself over to him. And there's stuff that works better than other stuff.

I think my favorite part is when he, and you guys might not have noticed the spell, he does like a Jamaican accent at one point. And I just thought that was so good when he did that. He tells you that everything's going to be alright. Did you watch that scene again? And you're like, nothing that is being said here. It happens twice. It happens twice.

It happens twice. Long scenes. But you're like, this didn't need to happen because like, they can communicate, which he doesn't need to do this. Yeah, of course he needs to. There's already abstraction. He's in the body of another person. It's not like he's a walking skeleton. Right? It's not like he shapes it. Well, I thought about it. I thought about a lot of stuff. But also this scene, look, this scene makes more sense and is less jarring.

Hypothetically, right? Just thought experiment here. If the woman doesn't speak English and everyone's stunned that's like, oh my God, suddenly he's bilingual. He speaks to her. Versus speaking English in a patois. It's the first note.

It's the first note. It's the one where I'm like, my first note is that the lady should be Chinese and he just speaks Chinese. He speaks the Chinese language and that's it. And he's just slaying Martin Pick any fucking language that isn't English. This is the script. And if Martin Bruss is like, I'm not changing that, I'm like, I will never make this movie. Never, ever, ever. I will never make it.

That is my one note. Everything else we could talk about, this will never be made. Your movie will be laughed out of theaters for a thousand years. They will invent something called YouTube. You don't know what it is yet, but that scene's going on there and everyone's going to watch it, my friend. Marty, I will let four additional cars hit Brad Pitt if you change the language. You can fucking do a street fighter chain attack. He floats in the air for 10 minutes. We can make it look like that scene is stuck on a loop and he's just bouncing

backwards between cars. You can add a full hour to the runtime just with the fucking car ping-ponging if you just change the language there. Or you have to have other scenes where he does something similar like he goes to order a pizza and he's like, get two slices, you know, like it would be better. Right. If it was, it wouldn't be good. But if it was like an Italian lady and he was like, hey, don't worry about it, honey. Like, why are you breaking my balls? I'm dead

But what you're you guys are joking as underlining the bizarreness of him being like like why does it have to be that Martin? I'm just gonna think like her there's no language goal and her daughter is gonna be like whatever. Yeah What a nice man. Yeah. Yeah that said that actress she's wonderful She's a legendary name. Yes, like a cultural heighten delivers in those two scenes, especially the second one. She destroyed me. Yeah, destroyed me. And I'm like, this is the central tension of this movie.

The most absurd, wrongheaded thing is happening simultaneously. Something that I find so pure and direct and thoughtful. Maybe the dossier can answer the question. All right, Martin Breslau. I'm opening the dossier. What's your question? Just like, is he just why? Just why? The question is why? I've read through the dossier and I hate to tell you that there is no answer for that. So I guess the answer just has to be that he's like,

I made Beverly Hills Cop a Midnight Run, then I did Sense of Woman. They probably all thought that sounded stupid too and look what happened there. Yeah. So I'm right. This will work. He was bound to determine I read an old interview with him in Premier magazine. He was determined to prove once and for all that death is heterosexual It's the greatest shit on earth. The great mission of his life that he can't make. Can't make death yet. Yeah, death is even asked if he's gay in the movie and he says no. No hardcore. No, bro No, that's on you guys' numbers. I think the answer, David, the movies you just listed all kind of have a scene like this, right?

Beverly Hills Cop and Midnight Run and Scent of a Woman all have a scene where someone enters a room and affects a weird persona to like code switch into to pass with the other people for whatever ultimate game. This is what I'm saying about this movie being a straighter line between comedy breast and prestige breast than scent of a woman, where you can see him being like, well, the point is the heightened comedy of it. The point is how bizarre this is, but you watch it and it's really kind of hard. I think for a lot of people.

Yes. I else would work. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Even if he was just like, look, I know death is a spicy meatball, but you're going to eat it up and whatever. David knocked five things off his table. Martin Bresch.

The thing it's nominally based on, Death Takes a Holiday, which is a play and then a movie, is like it has little funny details where like a guy jumps off the Eiffel Tower and can't die because death is not working. Yes. Plants come back to life. So there's whimsy to it. There's much more comedy based around that. That movie's also 75 minutes long. And if there was whimsy in Meet Your Black, the patois would be like, okay, well this is just part of this weird little world.

This is like the one scene in the movie where he has Bruce Almighty-esque powers, which makes it sound out more, where it's like he's doing a weird thing. He has Evan Almighty powers the whole time. The whole time. But Bruce, just this once. Martin Brest makes big movies in the 1980s. In the 1990s, he starts making remakes of movies that he saw at the American Film Institute in the 1970s. Based on Italian comedies.

Right. It's based on an Italian comedy called Profumo di Donna. Meet Joe Black is based on the 1934 film, Death Takes a Holiday, which indeed is based on an Italian play. Thank you. And a Broadway adaptation of it. He, I think was initially, I think Hot Tomorrow's

is a little inspired by all this. Right, all the way back when, right? Death is like his central concern. But obviously it's very important to going in style as well as he says like death mortality you know i saw that film when i was in my early 20s uh i just he says he turned on the tv and was sitting on her bed and he put one pant leg through my pants and the movie was on and he watched the entire movie before he put the other leg in his pants now only 75 minutes so minutes. So, not as big an ask, but still.

And he then spent 20 years trying to make this movie. Like, trying to figure out how to do this. We've talked about in the past, like, we've joked about it, but like movies as a child that I was like, how dare you screen this for children? It has death in it. This is not funny. 100%.

Right? My version of like, Aukerman, well, the Casper movie more so, but the Aukerman Joker bit, like you guys are laughing at this kind of thing. I can totally see the way he talks about his obsession with death as a child. That feels very paired to my own experience. I can totally see Martin Bress watching the original film at 20 and being like this movie is unspeakably sad and dark. This is a light comedy,

but if you're actually digging into the text of what it is, it's fascinating. And like it just having this permanent hold on him. It's a very solid comedy. It's what's his name, Michael Leeson, who directed a lot of Preston Sturges scripts before he started directing his own films, Easy Living and Remember the Night, which are both as solid as hell.

Very fun. Yeah. Have you ever seen Remember the Night? Never. Fucking McMurray and Stanwyck. Good guys. Good shit. We like them.

Yeah. What are they doing? Remembering the Night sounds boring. Oh, is that, is that the one where they go, is it like kind of a road movie? Yeah. And you know what? It's actually a little bit Midnight Run where he's a lawyer. A bracelet and then they have to go on the run.

She steals a bracelet, he's a lawyer representing her. She's like miraculously good at that. She's going to be held over for Christmas. He spends the night with her. But she's kind of the grodin. It's Christmas. Yeah, that's a good movie. I've seen that. Meet Joe Black. Kevin Wade is the first screenwriter that Breast works with.

This film has four accredited screenwriters. Kevin Wade had written Working Girl. He Breast works with. This film has four credited screenwriters. Kevin Wade had written Working Girl. He wrote four drafts over the years. Then Jeffery Noe and Rob Osborn are a team who were from Moonlighting. They take some swings there. But then he brings in Bo Goldman who wrote Scent of a Woman poorly in my opinion. I agree. His worst script. Yes, but obviously a guy with credits, a tremendous writer at

his best. Yeah. And Bress says, look, death is a blank. It's nonexistent. So we realize the movie is about life and what life is because it's about to be taken away. What's the major component of life? Love. So what's love?

Really? There's father, daughter, love. There's romantic love. So that will be the movie. It'll be about those two things. It is the way that everyone talks about the Benjamin Button development. Where like 15, 20 years of everyone trying to make this movie, no one can figure out a script.

And then Eric Roth writes this thing and everyone in Hollywood responds with like, this guy has tapped the raw nerve and this is now fast-tracked as hell. It just sounds like Bo Goldman comes on and everyone who reads this, let me note, 130 page script. Mm-mm.

A fleeter version of this movie was like, yeah, this is, I get what Brest wants to do here. I see the appeal. Death Takes a Holiday, just to note, is not about that stuff. Death Takes a Holiday, right, is just like, death is like, why does nobody like me? I'm going to pretend to be like a fancy man. And then is horny and falls out Death takes a holiday, right? It's just like, death is like, why does nobody like me? I'm gonna pretend to be like a fancy man. And then is horny and falls out, falls for someone, right?

And then she decides to go with him. Right, that's the big, the ending is flipped. The ending is, right. But she knows what she's in for. Yeah, I mean, there's similarly, he's there ostensibly to claim a man who he wants to use. His fanciness. They're ostensibly to claim a man who he wants to use his fanciness

Have him serve as a tour guide The difference is that it's the daughter of his rival rather than being his daughter who he falls for And the whole movies in Jamaican Patagon. Yes, right And of course, but it is of course still about a proposed merger between two businesses. And it spends lots of time on that. But as Richard said, it's much more leaning into the comedy of what happens in a week where death does exist. Uh-oh. I think this movie is not addressed. Yes. They don't want to do it in this way where you're like at the end, you're like,

OK, but wait a second, where was the coffee shop guy this whole time? The sister he was on the phone with? Did like, did she go to a morgue? Like what happened? It's been many days, if not weeks. And I kind of do wish, I like this movie a lot, but I do wish that it just gestured toward that stuff a little bit.

Richard, where's the time? In this movie. I was about to say, in a movie this stuffed, that's the thing where you're like, oh, it's three hours long, and you're like, yeah, but it's got like four characters. So I mean, of course it's long. You're like, yeah, but it's got like four characters. So I mean, of course it's long.

Joking about how much a business merger sales shit there is in this movie. Do you know that unlike we've talked about other films recently where they'll put all the deleted scenes in to be able to fill a longer block on on movie channels, this movie universal cut down to two hours and they did that by taking out all the business shit. And breast disowned it. Alan Smithy that shit hard. But it would be a fascinating alternate version to watch. I would be fascinated.

I'm surprised this movie wasn't at Fox, because it is in some ways like, don't worry Rupert Murdoch, you're going to heaven. It feels so Foxy. Like it's just like, Yes, no, yes, yes. You know, wonderful media type. Right. It was like, lift a beautiful- You media tycoon who's lived a beautiful life.

You're actually a very good man, Richard Rupert. I think that he's the unseen tycoon is Murdoch. That's how I take it. That he's like, I won't merge with that guy. He thinks he can run the world through a communications firm. Yeah. Sort of. Right.

Like he, I mean, right. It's not like, I mean, we don't delve into like what a noble life Anthony Hopkins had to earn this massive largesse running a com firm or whatever he does. But like the way he talks about this person we never see. Yeah. Does kind of make him sound kind of Murdoch or Maxwell or whatever. Sure. JJ, this was not in JJ's dossier, and I'm always hesitant to cite something that is

unsourced. But I saw a number of places on the Internet. So I qualify this, I tagged this hard as rumor and legend, say that when Bo Goldman was writing the script in his mind, he was designing the role for Gene Hackman. Sure. I mean, that's a different movie, but he's right there. I bring it up for this reason. It is interesting that when this movie starts out, Anthony Hopkins is pretty soulful and in touch. Perhaps, you know, like once he knows death is knocking on the door, he's like, spend more time with my family, reprioritize a little bit. But the scene in the helicopter with Claire Forlani, where he's like, actually live a life,

comes before death has like... That's the point. He's already there. Hackman, you could see doing a version of this movie that's maybe a little more traditionally cathartic for the audience, where he starts out as a little bit more of a Scrooge figure, and Joe Black lightens him up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think that part of, this time watching it, I was thinking about certain narrative choices. Like, it's interesting that the wife has already died

before the movie starts, which I guess is supposed to soften him and bond him to his children. But I just kind of wonder, like, it makes it, it makes it a little grimmer that these people are about to be orphaned, but also like, I don't know, I think there would have been an interesting tension if he was the first of that generation in the family to die. Because, I don't know, something's crumbling. It's Claire Forlani and Marcia Gay Harden's first experience of loss.

But that it's going to be the second one, I think, sort of softens the impact of the movie in a weird way. Even though it is a tragedy. I don't know. I'm not really explaining what I mean. The sort of maintained... I know, I totally get what you're saying. The maintained pathos is like kind of the Hopkins superpower, where if you're hiring him, that's what you want out of this movie. Like, the thing I find... The opening of this film of just him sort of tossing and turning in bed, grabbing his chest, and then just in voiceover,

Hopkins' own voice whispering yes, as like Thomas Newman is like creating a fire on those fucking strings. Thomas Newman's score is very subtle, you can barely hear it. There's something immediately kind of grabbing about it. Right, ear horn. Right, of like this movie is starting from like a very palpable sadness and loneliness. You can barely hear it. There's something immediately kind of grabbing about it. Right?

Of like this movie is starting from like a very palpable sadness and loneliness. Sadness and kind of whispering, I mean literally like mystery. I just think it's like to plop down in the fall of 1998 at your local multiplex and like this is what greets you. We don't really have that much anymore. And I think that's one of the reasons I appreciate this movie as much as I do, because it's like a huge swing that isn't afraid to immediately announce itself as something sort of strange and metaphysical. Yes. That takes a holiday.

As Griffin noted, the scripts, according to everyone who worked on them, were more like 135 pages. They don't know how this movie ended up three hours, except that, as Wade puts it, this must have been on Marty's mind for a long time and when you own it in your own way, you want it all in there. So coming from Marty. Martin Brefs. There's a quote later in the dossier where Martin Brefs says when people complain about the length of this movie, I think they're really complaining about the pacing and I own that. He's right. He's right. The issue with this film is the pacing. That's the thing I don't understand about the,

oh, they made the two hour cut where they took out the business. Just take out all the pauses. You could pull a lot of this out. Ben David Grabinski, friend of the podcast, texted that exact thing to me today. Take a vacuum cleaner and go like. It is crazy to watch this. You could cut 45 minutes out from pauses.

Yeah, oh, easily. It's so wild to watch this movie and Joe says to Bill, all right, we'll do it tomorrow after the party. And then it cuts to, okay, it's day of the party, y'all. And then you look at the time thing for you. And you're like, oh my God, there's like 15 minutes left of this movie. Like, and there's so many instances in that 15 minutes

where you could just tighten it, not lose a single bit of plot. But compare it to Scent of a Woman, which I would argue feels 18 hours longer than this, has scenes that are so fucking repetitive, and the 30 minute fucking kangaroo court at the end that is beyond unnecessary. On paper, if you just look at a scene by scene synopsis

of this movie, you're like, doesn't feel padded. Feels like a two hour movie. That looks normal. There's no scene here that sounds stupid on paper. I'm going to mention a few other things when we get to them. But right. I think there's a point to the pace and the slowness of the movie. But I do think it's maybe a little much.

It's a little self-defeating, but it does successfully conjure a very specific tone and feeling. That's it. Which I understand. But you're harming a lot of things by doing that. Brad Pitt, Brest sees him in California, a terrible movie. Yeah, and an insane movie to cast him in this off of. Decides he's terrifying in it.

And says, I love the idea of this good looking young man that's going to kill this older man, investing the, we get it. It's a, Oh, death's this hot young guy. Who's straight by the way, as an arrow. Breast calls him an old fashioned gentleman. Uh, some, there's someone out of another era. Tells us a story about meeting with him and they were in a hotel room and he kept

opening the window to smoke out the window. Right. He like, Breast is like, I was smoking a cigar and fucking stinking up the room, but Brad was still opening the window to blow his smoke outside. And Brest said, you don't have to worry about it. And Brad was like, that's all right. And he liked this old dignity of that. What I find surprising about California being the thing he cites is it doesn't

feel like scary is the main thing this movie is looking for out of him. When he is scary, it is because he feels a little blank. And I think Brad Pitt basically had two modes at this time, one of which was, let me go as crazy as possible. Let me torture myself, fucking bloody up my face, which he was very good at. And then what he struggled with was just kind of holding the center. And that's when he kind of comes like blank beautiful baby And sometimes the movie around him like legends of the fall can kind of use it properly and other times You're like this guy is fucking checked out and the blankness here is an asset. I

Would say yeah, but I think audiences thought he was absolutely right. Well, it's, let's say, let me put it this way. It's an asset now. I get it. Yes. In the future, when we've seen Brad Pitt come into his own as a performer versus in 1998, I can imagine people are sitting there going, is there nothing there? Are we all totally reading something into this guy? Which is also kind of what the movie is doing.

Like Claire Forlun is falling in love with a baby who won't stop eating out of a jar and doesn't understand anything. It's implied he's wearing a diaper too, right? Of course. Yeah, he doesn't know what it's doing. It comes so fast. Pitt, correct. Was my letterbox blog was death comes prematurely?

Pitt correctly, in a way, says the film sounds on paper like a Whoopi Goldberg concept movie. But then he says I read the script I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like this is a guy who does this job, right? And this is Pitt during a mad era of his careers, he says, where it's like, I can only imagine what it was like. Like to pick a project must have been a daunting thing. You were, you're wanted for everything, right?

Like Brad Pitt in 1998 probably basically be in any movie he wanted barring like five to six O-Tor projects maybe, where the director's like, no, no, no, I wrote this for De Niro or whatever, right? Like that's it. In his age class, like is he the number two choice behind Cruise? I think so.

And there's a giant gulf between the two, but Cruise is very picky. But Cruise is doing his own special thing anyway, right. And Pitt was so pretty and so desired. I mean, obviously Cruise was too, but Pitt had this specific thing that I think a lot of straight men rolled their eyes at. But he needed straight men to want to see the things he was in and cast him in things and direct him in things.

And so it's such a delicate dance that he had to do in this period of time. And he picked a lot of... He picked wrong a few times, but like, I just, I don't envy the sort of like, if I make one false move, I'm going to, I mean, he did for this win a Razzie award, you know, that doesn't mean anything. But like, it's just that it was such a... It should have made one false move. Good movie.

Yeah. So later he says this film was a bit of a mistake in terms of the project he picked. He says, I got lost in the wilderness of fame a bit There's all these opportunities you're supposed to be taking and I got really discombobulated Then he says like you mentioned this that would subpoena called my loss of direction and compass I'm dod I dogged it. I muffed it. I shouldn't have been there in the first place. I should have been decompressing I didn't crack the piece someone could have been better in it He's like Hopkins fucking nailed it.

Like he has full praise for that. And they were already very close from Legends of the Fallen. I think they had a very good relationship. Yeah. And obviously, as we've mentioned on our Fight Club episode, Fight Club is his big response to like him getting slaughtered for this movie, basically. Yes. The term he uses now when he talks about his struggle and like he sort of gets back on track after this and then Troy was kind of contractual obligation

movie that's the last time he's sort of playing a blank and then he really doubles down on like I'm making my choices very specifically after that. The term he always uses where I think about a lot is I needed to find directors who wouldn't put me at the center of the frame. Sure, right. Who wouldn't just make the lazy choice. Hopkins also loves the script. That's why he signs on. Loves Pitt. Likes working with those young guys. Claims he wrote him a fan letter after Seven Among 12 Monkeys.

I'm sure that was a normal letter. Hopkins, have you ever read any of his fan letters? I know he writes a ton of them. He's a sweetie pie. People will post them and they're very, they're very effusive. It's funny to send a fan letter to him when he'd already worked with him. Yes. Right.

But maybe that's, it's that kind of thing of like, Brad, I want you to know, I see what you're doing. Love Uncle Anthony. That kind of thing of like, Brad. I want you to know I see what you're doing. Love Uncle Entity. And Forlani, I don't really know. I mean, she's a thing at this point, right? I want to zoom into Forlani for a second. Yeah.

But before that, I just want to like fully. There's not much on Forlani in the dossier. We can talk about like what she'd been doing. I want to talk about her. But like Pitt obviously breaks out, 91 Thelma Louise Johnny Swade, right? Then like 92 Cool World River Runs Through It, 93 California True Romance,

that's him trying to rough it up a bit. 94 Interview with a Vampire Legends of the Fall. It's like women are 1000% on board with this guy. And he's had two hits in one year. Basements across the nation flooded. Right. 95, 7, 12 Monkeys as we said, it's like now guys like him. Now he's worked with two weirdo tours. 96 Sleepers, I'd say that's almost net-neutral for him other than like putting him in a class of guys. Framing him on a tier, right? He was also cushioned by an ensemble.

Like he wasn't the lead lead of that movie. And then 97, Devil's Own, seven years in Tibet. You're like, Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. u. This is in theory what he should be doing Devil's Own and Seven Years in Tibet are interesting. Well, because in Devil's Own, he's trying an accent that goes disastrously, and that production was a disaster.

And then Seven Years in Tibet is just this earnest, kind of dull movie, but the thing that people most talked about was how blonde his hair was. It was just like, oh, it's a little too blonde now. That was, no one cared about the rest of the movie. He looks just a little too perfect to be framed in a movie in any way, but look at how perfect this guy looks.

But at the time, and not to be cynical about it, but at the time, like the Free Tibet movement was so big. Oh yeah, yes. And this, I remember reading about this in like Entertainment Weekly, because I was like about 14, 15 when this was all happening, and being like, oh, Seven Years in Tibet, like that's his like serious actor. It's a period piece. It's kind of a somewhat esoteric true story, you know.

It's one for him, is how that movie was treated. But you watch it now and you're like, no, this was a big Hollywood. Like it was not like a some little indie he went to go make. Claire Follani, Mallrats is like her first major American studio film. Yes, so Mallrats is basically where first major American studio film. Yes, so Mallrats is basically where she emerges. She's British.

Well, you have to remember that she was in Police Academy, Mission to Moscow. I always forget the Police Academies. You are right. As you would, but she apparently played a Russian in that. Okay. I guess they're going to Mission to Moscow. You're after Mallrats, she does The Rock and Basquiat,

which are both small parts, but in movies that get good notices and she's good in both of them. Yeah, she pops in Basquiat, are both small parts but in movies that get good notices and she's good in both of them Yeah, she she pops in Basquiat. I would say and in the Rock too, but obviously the Rock is like big lab movie I just you know, you're just kind of like oh like there's clear for me. I'm gonna get ahead of this 1999 mystery men Unsurprisingly, I would say a very formative crush for me. Sure Yeah, just the way she relates to the unbearably neurotic, insecure, angry Ben Stiller in that movie.

I was like, oh, this is what an adult relationship looks like. And she's the most striking woman. I've never been a fan of hers. And I don't particularly like her in any movie. Interesting. I'm sorry to say it about Claire Forlani. She's fine. I just don't like her that much. I've always liked her. She's fine. I don't hate her.

I was always a little surprised by how like completely her career derailed after this. In a lot of ways it feels like she got hit harder by this movie than anyone else. Oh yeah. Universal has her clearly in Mystery Men already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's already along for that then, but she gets one, she gets an Amy Heckerling movie, Boys and Girls. That's Amy Heckerling, right? It's not. It's Robert Isco. Oh, no. No. What am I thinking?

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm thinking of Loser, the other Jason Biggs movie. I thought it's Donald Petrie. Am I wrong about this? You're wrong. Boys and Girls is a film directed by Robert Isco. And she does Antitrust, the Tim Robbins is evil Bill Gates movie. Boys and Girls is so bad. What everyone wanted then. And then Antitrust, she's just kind of like the girl in it. She just, it's not like a...

No, the problem is it's her and Rachel Lee Cook, two girls who aren't quite hitting with kind of short hair. You know what I mean? Unsurprisingly, my two greatest. Two big griff girls. Yeah. But I think you're right that Forlani, like, this wiped her out. Can I tell you why I wiped her out?

Why? She's not that good in it. And like the movie, there's a lot of weight on her in this movie. She's fine. Yeah. It's not like Sofia Copeland Godfather where you're like, oh my God, get her off the screen. This is, I'm hard to watch. Like I feel like she's suffering.

But there's a little bit of a Julia Ormond in Sabrina thing where it's like you're framing this movie around someone being undeniable, right? And beyond just acting ability, it's just like this movie is asking you to just accept fucking it factor off the charts, holding the screen with like wizened movie stars. I think the central issue with this movie, which is maybe an insane thing to say for a film that is three hours long and has four of the most insane scenes ever committed to film. I think the central issue with this movie, the first, let's say, 15, 10, 15 minutes where it's her relating to Anthony Hopkins, I'm like, this is what I liked so much about Claire Filani. I find her really striking in all the scenes with Hopkins. I like their dynamic a lot.

I think the scene where she meets real Brad Pitt, pro bono lawyer in the diner, absolutely does not work. I think a lot of it's Pitt's failing of this is the exact thing he's not good at doing at this time. He becomes so much better when he has to play a blank rather than a quote unquote, a real guy. I just think the chemistry is not there with them. And any time the movie focuses on the two of them together,

it doesn't work. I agree with you, she's not working, but I think it's a mutual both of them aren't working, and they're absolutely not in sync. I do think she nails the final scenes with him. She's nice in those scenes. Well, she's so good at being half crying and, you know, sort of whatever. Yeah, that's it. Right. She can just kind of sort of stare with her eyes.

But I find the romance scenes, the seduction scenes in this borderline like too cringey to watch. Agreed. Like, it's rough. Agreed. The only one that beats it for me is the sex scene because it's so bizarre and owning its bizarreness that it kind of goes all the way back around. Anytime they're like talking to each other and flirting, the movie does kind of make me want to rip my flesh off. It's rough. And part of it is, Pitt says this, I don't remember if this quote's in the dossier or not, but that his take that he felt like he didn't totally grab was to do something, a little being there.

And that's kind of the balancing act this movie is trying to play of like, it's the poor things thing as well, right? Like, everyone being very taken by this charismatic, beautiful movie star that they don't notice that they're basically an idiot. Right. And like, I don't buy that she's falling for him in spite of how weird he's acting. I don't like what you're saying right now. I'm sorry, Ben. But I think her last three scenes, I think her goodbye to Hopkins, I think the scene where she puts together that he's death is really well done and I think it's also good writing and that they don't write it. That I like.

I like the way the scene is constructed. Ten minutes of two closeups. Which is insane on paper. And like, Brest says for him, that's his proudest moment in his entire filmmaking career. And I totally get it. I think it's insane that that's his opinion because he has better work. But I understand what he's saying.

I remember, I think the first time I saw this movie, it would have been fall of my sophomore year of high school. I believe I cut school to see it, which was a common practice of mine. Got hit by four cars on the way to the theater. Yep. I cut school to see a movie once and I couldn't get in, so I to go see Flubber for the second time because I was already at the movie theater. Do you remember what you were trying to see instead? When was Flubber? 98 as well? 97? 97. Oh, I believe I was trying to see Boogie Nights. If they were out at the same time, I think they were both fall.

Yeah. Oh, 100% Flubber's, of course Thanksgiving 97, baby. Anyway, but I feel like because I had read about this movie in like fall movie preview various other things in EW and one of the things that excited me about it was because I'd seen Mallrats, and I was like, okay, I'm now at the age where I'm going to watch my movie stars emerge. And Claire Forlani was going to be, she got the lead in the Big Brad Pitt movie. And even at the time-

You were watching the pipeline. Exactly. It was exciting. I was like, I was here on the ground floor. On the ground floor, right. And then even watching the movie the first time, by the end, I was like, oh, it didn't really work for me. She's not nabbing it.

It just didn't... It's something doesn't connect. No one walks out of that movie being like, I want tons of Claire for life. It might walk out being like, she was good. But like me skipping this and going straight to Mystery Man, I was like, why is everyone not hiring this person? Obviously, we all saw Mystery Man. That was about superheroes who were crazy. The bowling balls. and going straight to Mystery Man, I was like, why is everyone not hiring this person? Obviously, we all saw Mystery Man.

That was about superheroes who were crazy, the bowling balls. Let's also call out the fascinating reality of her being married to Dougray Scott for like the last 25 years, two people who kind of have identical career tracks. Yeah, where it's like end of the 90s, the studio was like, we're thinking, yeah, big time. Yeah. And oh, God. And then 25 years of like, oh, right. And they just will pop up and stuff occasionally.

Sure. Yeah, they're both still working. I remember her being in television ads as the spokesperson for some Scotch, like 10 years ago. She's still around. She did some TV show recently. What was it? Maybe not actually. It's actually been a while since Hawaii Five-O, which it seems like. She was on Hawaii Five-O. She was. She Maybe not actually. It's actually been a while since Hawaii Five

Oh, which it seems like she was on Hawaii. I thought she was she was not like full time, but she was in a Peacock original called Departure, which was about I think like air traffic controllers. Okay, look, what's important is that on set, this may stun you to hear if you've listened to any episodes of our Martin breast series, but he was a bit of a perfectionist and asked for a lot of takes. What made you laugh, though? What made you laugh? The wind up. Oh, OK, OK. I thought you had a funny back. No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, I mean, the budget balloon to 90 million dollars. It went several months over schedule. This movie looks expensive and it has movie stars in it. But I don't think it should have cost that much money. You get two fancy locations, your work is done. But it's time, David. I'm aware of why, believe me, I know why the blue bunch of blue. I'm just saying like, you could make this cheaply.

Of course you could. Of course you could. As much as the estate itself, I'm sure was very expensive and it's the primary location of this movie and we've talked about like making movies about rich people as expensive to replicate their lifestyle. It is the primary like 60, 70% of the movie set in the one fucking grounds. The matrix cost what? 65, $63 million a year later.

That's all in the matrix. That it was just computers. David was so right. There was's all in the Matrix, that it was just computers, David. Right, there was just everything in the Matrix that cost money, just someone going, boop, boop, boop. But also, why did, how did you know it cost 120 million dollars? Because the guy wouldn't call cut. It's all on the screen. What are you talking about?

Are those real Rothko's, you think? They might have been. Probably. But they bought them for the movie. My dad was almost in the party scene. Really? Well, he could have been. He was almost in it What was at your house? I mean, it was established. We were in Rhode Island where we spent summers and my dad was reading the Providence Journal

and they had like a little ad in the paper that was like, do you own a tuxedo? Are you a man over 50? Do you live near in the Newport, Rhode Island area? Come in. And my sister and I were like, you could be in a Brad Pitt movie. And he had a tuxedo because he was singing in a chorus thing or whatever Sure, and we were like you should do it and he almost went and then he kind of the last minute decided not to do it And I forever well, he would have been at the mercy of Martin Bress being like take 82 That would have been it I would have seen him walking over a bridge with Everyone back to marks. Yeah everyone. there's like 400 people in this scene.

Yep. Everybody plays. You're like, why'd this movie cost $90 million? You're like, if the guy's going to do 50 takes of it, that takes four years. Yeah. I mean, with these scenes playing out at the pace, they're playing out and every take requires a 20 minute fireworks sequence. As, as Pitt says, I would hate to go shopping with the guy.

Funny line. Pitt's always got a funny one He's got something. It's so fine-tuned. He's like a conductor directing an orchestra He brings up the strings holds them and cuts them off like that and then in comes the bass drum He's so precise with the tuning. He's a maestro, but I do think that's you know It's tough. This movie does feel symphonic Absolutely, and that's why the slow listen slowness makes sense on paper of like right I'm building a mood very very very carefully and it's consistent and the emotions are gonna come up now

the only thing I'll say that is disrupting that is Thomas Newman going like The whole time because that's what Thomas Newman fucking a little allergic to Newman and I'm an easy lay I'm a little allergic to Newman and I'm an easy lay for him. I like Newman's scores. It just kind of gets me every time, even when I think he's doing the shittiest version of it. I like Newman's scores on the phone. He overwhelms movies sometimes. I think especially in this, I don't like when the score gets into the percussion, whatever, the brass, the shh sound. That's too much. But I like everything else. But to the specificity of what Breast is doing, toward the end, when they're having their

third goodbye basically between Brad and Bill and Joe, and Hopkins says something like, it's hard to leave, isn't it? And Brad Pitt says yes, and Hopkins goes like, oh, well, that's life. What can I say? And as he says that a firework burst of light is reflected on his face and the score kicks in and it's like that is so carefully calibrated to exactly that head movement, motion, exactly that line. Like, you know, it's it's a, that's a lot of detail that like seems like, oh, that's easy, but like a lot of directors do not think like that.

Take 50. That is, that is like, he figured it out. You know, I want it to be exactly here right and Hopkins has talked about consummate pro is like I'm like a three take guy. Yes, you give me three takes I'll give you three really good options with a lot of variety in them You're gonna get three perfectly crafted different approaches to the piece you're asking me to do give or take I'll maybe throw you two more

if I'm in a good mood. He's just like, you're not getting anything different out of me on take 35. This is Hopkins in 2022, so he hasn't let go of this. He's not saying this recently. Yeah, he is saying it recently. He's not saying it at the time. He's saying it recently to now, exactly.

Monty Bress, the director, lovely man, he'd be doing take after take after take. I never knew why. I said to him one day, I don't have much longer to live. Can we finish this? And in fact he did. In fact, that's the thing. In fact he did.

In fact he did. When they say early on this is his 65th birthday, I was like, is he playing young in this? I realized he's 62. Right, yeah, no, it makes sense. There's just that weirdness of Hopkins being a guy who basically didn't become a movie star until he was in his mid 40s, where you're like, he only kind of exists as an old man. Even when he was 45, he played.

That's why it was tough to build a movie star career for the guy after he won the Oscar. But I mean, like Hopkins, like making this movie and being like, I'm old and then being like, oh, don't worry. In 22 years, you're going to win another Oscar. For playing an old guy.'re playing an old guy. Soon fucking home. Yeah, right. And Lois Miller, the Jamaican woman in the hospital, only died in 2020.

At the age of 102. Yeah, so death took another holiday for both these people, I think. That's true. And as you say, Griff, he does think the scene where death reveals who he is to Susan, the most accomplished he's ever been involved with, Breast thinks this. It's what you said, that they say it without saying it, that it's all faces.

He's like, can I do this with everything tied behind my back? Exposition, visual effects. It's not like lightning will crackle out of this guy or anything like that. And then it's echoed when she accepts that her father is dead and says the line, you know, I wish you could have met my dad. It's like, that's such a good way of not being like my dad's dead. I mean, it is funny to think that there's a crumpled body across the bridge bridge, but like, you know, that they're going to have to deal with. But yeah,

I think that that is really well done. And I agree with what you're saying, David, that even if you don't like her, this is specifically the kind of thing that Claire Frolani was good at is the sort of like laughing through tears Sort of like half rye Kind of like I can't believe I'm showing my emotions. This is embarrassing kind of thing There's the quote in the dossier about the the principle of plating in

Cuisine correct. Can you read that? We can, Brad, this is Brad Pitt again, talking about Nouveau cuisine. No, no, sorry, I'm sorry, this is Brest. Yeah, I think so, I was confused for a second. He says, Brest, Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad. You know how in Nouveau cuisine, they'd serve one piece of something on a very bare plate, and that one piece of whatever better be a very high quality because it wasn't smothered in something?

The nature of this film is there's not a lot of technique that covers the actors, it's just them working. Funny considering that Sensible Woman is like drowned in freaking Bernier's sauce basically. That's exactly why I not only think this film is infinitely better, but is a much stronger showcase of breast as a filmmaker. Even if you think this movie is bad, I think it's right. I think it's hard to argue that the person making it isn't like a real film artist versus sensible woman. I'd be like, and this was made by domestic terrorists on the run for the law. Yes, the frustration about the way this movie was treated at the time and has been since

is that like it's treated as like it's treated like it's Bagger Vance where it's just kind of like which you know, there's style in that movie. Sure. But like where it's just kind of like, which you know, there's style in that movie, sure, but like, where it's just, oh, it's just toss off Hollywood product and it's like, well no, if you actually watch the movie, this was like very carefully made. None of this is like accidental or they didn't luck into any of this,

they didn't stumble into it, you know? And I just think that like, that it gets kind of derided for its, you know, corniness or its slowness or whatever is okay, fair. But like, we don't have shit like this anymore in the same its, you know, corniness or its slowness or whatever is, okay, fair. All valid. But like, we don't have shit like this anymore in the same way, you know? And I just wish that we'd valued it at the time, but we didn't know what we had. David?

Yes. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ Why are you angry? The nerve. The nerve of what? It's so unfair, David! What, are you talking about the fact that Netflix hides thousands in shows and movies from you based on your location? And that has the nerve to keep increasing prices on you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the sound of my teeth grinding! The only thing you can do is cancel your subscription and protest, right? Yeah! Wait a second. What?

Be smart. Okay. Make sure you're getting your full money's worth, like I do. Use ExpressVPN. God, David, that just washed over me like a warm bath. Netflix is always hiding stuff from you based on where you are. ExpressVPN lets you change your online location. You can control where you want Netflix to think you are currently located.

They've got servers in a hundred countries or more. You can gain access to thousands of new shows and never run out of stuff to watch. David, I was George C. Scotting out so hard and the calm, the inner peace I feel now. Look, Disney Plus it works with, BBC iPlayer, lots of like these kinds of services. And it's really easy to use. What about Crackle? I think so. You can get Crackle Australia for all I know. What about Gem? I don't know what that is. I think that's the Canadian one. You can fire up the app, you click one button to change locations.

It works on all your devices. If you know you change your VPN Wi-Fi location. Phones, laptops, tablets, smart TVs, more. And you can stream in HD with zero buffering, okay? Blazing fast speeds. It's not gonna mess with any of that stuff. And that's cool, in my opinion. Do you agree? I agree. I'm just trying to pull up again what the names

that the Canadian streaming services are because they're funny. And I don't say this mockingly, but they're funny. And so you can just look around and see what's available on what country's service. Wow, there's a, I'm looking at a giant service now. Did you know this? You're looking, what are you doing? Like to see what's in what country.

Okay. Like Friends is available on British Netflix. Did you know that, Griffin? I didn't, and that's gonna change my life. Monty Python's Flying Circus, a classic. Yes. That's available on British Netflix. Okay.

Like these are things you can get through ExpressVPN. Okay? All you have to do is open ExpressVPN, select whatever country you want, tap one button to connect, refresh Netflix, and there it is. Is British Netflix spellable to you? So be smart, Griffin. Stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content.

Get your money's worth at expressvpn.com slash check. Don't forget to use my link at expressvpn.com slash check to get an extra three months of ExpressVPN for free. Sounds good. Big Chivo shoots the film coming right off of Little Princess. He's first Oscar nom. Yes. He likes another Little Princess, Brad Pitt.

He looks like a pretty little princess. Dante Ferretti, of course, a three time Oscar winner, mostly a Scorsese collaborator and a Fellini collaborator at this point in a Pasolini collaborator. These are like a list like top shelf crew guys. Exactly. Nancy Meyers did all the interiors. That's why it cost 90 million. Yeah, everyone knew the film was going to be long. Marty and you have to respect it said this is the movie he wants to make, says the editor, Michael Tronek.

Casey Silver agreed, Bo Goldman left it. We could have put together an alternate version in a week. That was not the case. We knew it was long, but movies released free holidays, The Prestige Factor, there's a lot of long movies. Sure. There's another line in the dossier. Let's see if it's the one you're about to read. Because I do movies so rarely,

I just wanted to pack so much in. It's not one of my more popular movies, true. But it's a movie I'm very proud of and it has very powerful advocates. That makes it sound like Thanos. What does he mean? The Saudi government supports each other. And it has its detractors. People complain about its length.

I think what they're really complaining about is its pace, not that it's three hours, and that's a legitimate complaint. But Scent of a woman is 92 Sent of a woman is 1992, right? He's like become a movie every six years guy He that's what he is and then he became a movie every never guy Yeah, after making a little film called G Lee which we can talk about when we record that episode but I Talk it in my alpha remote, you know, to order the film. By the way, I do want to promise that we will talk about that movie when we record that episode.

That's a guarantee. And I just, I, you know, I press speak on my Apple remote and I go, Glee. Guess what? Apple doesn't know what I'm saying. It's like, Giggly, what are you talking about? Do you want to read reviews of Vanessa Hudges's production of Gigi on Broadway? Like, I just kept being like, Gilly. And they're like, right, that's not a word. You can just say that. Anyway. Another classic like Marty, we'll give you a green light if you called the movie and the character

anything else. And it be called anything else. I love that you got Ben and Jen. Come on. Call it Vinny. You can call it Gobble Gobble for all I care. Who's not G. Lee? For crying out loud. Call it Eat Me Out From Behind.

We'll put that on a fucking poster. The title of the movie is You Won't Believe What Justin Bartha Does In This. Would it make more money probably? Yeah. David's head's in his pants. The Bartha performance. The Bartha performance.

It's astonishing. He got hired in other films after that. National Treasure is after that. It's crazy. in his hands. The Barth of Performance. The Barth of Performance. It's astonishing. He got hired in other films after that. National Treasurer is after that. It's crazy. It's after. After. Isn't The Hangover after too? Yeah. Way after.

Yeah. But it's like National Treasurer is then being like, I think we can put him in a blockbuster. I think we can make him the Pesci in this lethal weapon. So Men in Black, I mean, Men in Black is a great film about aliens and stuff. Meet Joe Black, however. I was like, how the fuck did we get the Men in Black? Was Men in Meet Joe Black the porn parody? Where he's decidedly not straight? No, it's just Meet Joe Black. I'm going to find out about that.

It's Joe Black's Meet. Let's be clear. It took three passes, but Joe Black's meat is the title. There we go. Bill Parrish, Anthony Hopkins, is a media mogul of some sort. I don't know, it's succession vibes, right? We don't even really know what he does. I would say something in comms and yeah,

like he is contemplating a merger with another media giant. But something else is happening. Marcia Gay Harden's planning a birthday media giant. But something else is happening. Marcia Gay Harden is planning a birthday party for him. Something else is happening. His other daughter Claire Forlani is maybe going to marry Jake Weber. One other thing. Taxis are striking down pedestrians.

Look at that. He keeps hearing his own voice whisper to him. Which I find just very evocative. Right, it is very evocative. Here's another thing I immediately clock in this movie, talking about like just the time capsule of 1998. You're like, oh right, this is when like the richest people in the world had taste.

Like now when you see anyone like this character's house, you're like, this is the ugliest shit I've ever seen in the world. And you're like, this man lives in like the fucking beauty in The Beast castle I get it. Yeah. Yeah, he lives he lives a nice life. It looks nice to photograph Yeah, sure I mean I would say right this film has no interest in engaging right with like has he led a somewhat evil life like Cuz like like you say that there's the right the Gene Hackman of like, what have I built and I'm about to die.

And instead of the opposite is like, yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm really close to my daughter, yeah, Marcia Gay Hart and like, sure, she's, she's always busy, but we love each other too. And it's a nice place I've built for myself. To the extent that at the end, when, um, in one of the th the three goodbyes, Hopkins says to Pitt, um, should I be scared? And Joe says with the life you've led, no. And it's like, oh, don't worry, Media Mogul. Like you've lived an unimpeachable

life. The movie actually takes pains to tell you that. The critics at the time, several of them noted that this film is like seemingly a weird rebuke to the it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to walk through the eye of a needle thing. And I was watching and I was like, if they made this today, they would not let the guy be a billionaire, right? Like no one wants to see this movie

about an uber wealthy guy, but it is kind of tied into the premise that it's like death, who is like a baby, is like, well, who would be the best person to show me life? And what he sort of learns in the process is like, this guy isn't like haunted by his mistakes. He's not like morally corrupt, but there is some deep intrinsic sadness in him.

And what I do think Hopkins plays well and is cast well for is a guy suddenly faced with the like, you can't take it with you aspect of it. Not the like blood on his hands, but what was all of this worth? That like you can build a great empire, but like you are going to leave it at some point. Right. What does this all fucking add up to? And I don't know if I have a second, a minute, a week or a month left. And you're not going to inject yourself with teenager's blood

like our present day billionaires are doing to stay alive forever. I can't say- Let's say- Doing it off screen. Yeah, and have incredibly young-looking penises. I mean, for the record. Those guys look great. The thing about- A perfect example of,

we don't make rich people like we used to. We really don't. It used to be Joe Parrish. It did used to be- Ward Burnish's offices, not injecting his son's blood into his dick. I sit here and I do my work and yes, do I love my daughters? No, no. I'm a noose man. Right, yeah. And yeah, now it's like, I'm so young. And this guy who looks like he's been like through a car wash.

Right. Looks insane. And everyone lives in like fucking Jared Leto's home from Blade Runner 2049. And they're all in like the Maldives or something. It's like, why do you live there? It's like, uh, reasons. I eat dirt because they're telling me you'll give me two more years of living. They're also on Twitter replying to people and you're like, I don't know. You're rich. I eat dirt because they're telling me you'll give me two more years of living. And then they're also on Twitter replying to people and you're like, I don't know, you're rich.

Surely you don't have to do that once you're rich, right? Surely there's a private rich person version of this. No, fuck you, lol. I'm like, aren't you rich? I'm so happy, but everything strangers say makes me cry. Isn't your life just like Minecraft? You could just go like boopop, boop, boop, boop, boop, like I built another building. There needs to be a scene in this movie where Marsha Gay Hardin explains to Anthony Hopkins what the crying face emoji is,

so he can get a preview of what wealth is gonna look like. But all these- The sideways crying face. All these horrible people of our modern hellscape that we're talking about are people who are just like, infinitely distracting themselves with things, right? Right, right, because they hear the voice. They hear the yes. Well, they don't hear it. They're blocking it out. Well, but they know it's coming, though.

Hopkins hears the yes immediately. That's kind of the key to this character is like, especially because his wife has passed. I do think that's the reason. It's already on his mind. Right. He's already kind of one, not foot, but toe out. He's like his his career is about to end. There's something waiting for me on the other side because my wife is already dead. Marcia Gay Harden is like planning what's sort of essentially...

It's supposed to be a birthday party, but it's kind of a retirement party in a way of like, you're going to do this merger, you'll be the grand old man. And beyond that, it has this energy of like, who knows how many years dad has left? Like, this isn't his death party, but why not go big now because who knows? Meanwhile, Susan goes to a coffee shop up on Morningside Heights. I've been there myself. Good job. It's the Broadway Diner.

Did you get home okay? Well, I love to when I cross streets in New York city, stand in the street for 15, 20 seconds, just kind of see what happens. Whisper, he's smiling. Yeah, exactly. No, it's weird. He got home. He did like eight double takes.

What's weird is he got home okay a week later. That's true. Showed up wearing a tuxedo and his wife seemed to be continuing a conversation that he had no memory of. It's, yeah. She has a meet cute with a straw-haired man in a suit. Right? I don't know how else to describe this scene, right?

Where they're both, she's quasi engaged to, to what's his name? Weber, Jake Weber. You already have the scene in the helicopter where Anthony Hopkins is like, look, I love the guy. He's my best Lieutenant. I think he's sharp as hell. I approve, but do you love him? Open conversation. I really don't sense any excitement there and I think we deserve more. She goes to this coffee shop, she connects to this guy, it's like sort of classic bold gold mini, like he's on the phone arguing with someone, you think it's his wife, it's his sister, he cares so much, he's a lawyer

who doesn't make any money. He has all these... He would make money if he had a wife to take care of and she wanted nice things or whatever. Right, they're just immediately matching on these sort of like abstract ideals of what do you want out of your life? That immediately is a more meaningful conversation than any she's ever had with Jake Weber. Jake Weber, I think a very solid actor, who I always forget is British. Yeah, he's a good douchebag.

Oh god, that's right, fundamentally unimportant person. Right. A guy where you're just like, he's not gonna matter. Because a lot of British guys playing roles like this go full Patrick Bateman, lean so hard into douchebag where you're like, I want this guy to be shot between the eyes. Webber's just a little bit not it. And sometimes that in like a business. And sometimes that like a business context, sometimes that in a romantic context. In this movie, it's both. He's in the Pelican brief just on video

as a former whistleblower lawyer who was mysteriously died. And he's really good in that. And then weirdly, like he was playing against type in Dawn of the Dead, which I think he's very good at. And that's sort of like this guy has a little more depth than you thought.

That movie has such a good cast that movie like Pfeiffer Maca Pfeiffer being rames ever type of all you're just like type or else really good in it Michael Kelly's really good It was the start of a great directing career with lots of great movies after that I mean it is I can't believe I haven't watched the scar giver. I'm so mad at myself. I watched either of them I want waiting for the fucking theetro Black length cuts coming. I'm like, why should I even watch these if you're telling me these are bad? It's kind of true.

Okay, the car accident scene. After this meet cute, they walk down the street looking- I just want to repeat, I think doesn't work. I think they're just not insane. You don't feel what they're feeling. Oh, the scene doesn't work. You don't feel what they're supposed to be feeling. No.

It's still stilted. And then when they're looking over the shoulder at each other over and over and over again, which out of context on Twitter or whatever looks even more insane, but even in the movie you're like Jesus we get it. You know what I mean? It feels like they're kind of inflating them the point just so that you get it in our current like media language It does feel like fucking lonely Island your sister editing where you're like the oh well the bid is that you're another over the shoulder like right And then of course pit gets hit by two cars and he goes boink boink and Rachel Handler vulture wrote a scene a scene She wrote a big story about this scene considering how it was made apparently breast wanted it to be done with a real stunt man

Can I do the quick summation of this as in the dossier from JJ? So breast was like this has to be a hundred percent real I want not a lick of CGI which obviously is not where it is today in 1998 They hired the stunt guys. They're like if you want to do this in camera It's gonna take three weeks of concentrated stunt rehearsal three to four weeks like non-stop and they kept on being like, okay We'll get started on that next week. And the stunt team is like, guys, if we're going to do this, we have to do this. And they're like, wishy washy about it.

And at some point they're like, could you film on five days? And they were like, no, fuck this. Stop shutting it down. I'm not letting this happen. If you do this wrong, someone gets horribly injured. They're like, we can make a dummy. Breast is like dummies are fake. They're like, we can make a dummy. Breast is like, dummies are fake. They're like, we can make the most expensive,

high-end, fully articulated, the fingers have proper bone structure dummy. They do a life cast of Brad Pitt's entire body. Poor Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt goes into a hotel room in a G-string and they like lather him in baby shampoo and like put him in the fucking castor and get everything correct.

And they're like, we'll have glass eyes and every hair fall with a punch. Destroy what you make. Yes. Like never use this again. Locked in eye contact. You have to promise me the molds are destroyed. I'm so worried about a black market ring of Brad Pitt,

realistic sex stalls existing. And they make this perfect dummy that they like hit multiple times and they were like the only part of it that CGI is we shot the dummy I'm sure considering breast many many many fucking times and then they shot hit in front of a green screen I think without telling breast and they built a perfect foam replica of the front of the car so they could get real pit being hit full speed by the front of the car with no damage in the exact position the dummy would be in

And then you just about 15 frames of cgi they say yeah, it's truly just for the impact transition crazy Cables to make the double hit work, but they never explained why they built the jeffrey tamber dummy Well, that was for black market pit requested that. It was in his contract. I don't know. It's actually every movie he makes, he's like, tamper dummy? Tamber's not in this one. He's like, tamber is so in the pocket in this.

Tamber's excellent in this film. The problem with that scene is that it doesn't make any fucking sense. Why doesn't he just get hit by one car? That's enough, he would die. Why does it have to be this comic thing? Because because getting back to it's like breast, innate, absurdist tendencies. This doesn't make any sense with the tone of the scene. I'm not defending it. I'm trying to psychoanalyze why he made the decisions. That's all I'm

saying. It's especially maddening to hear how much work people had to do for one of the most mocked scenes in like 90s movies. And a scene that completely just like, you know, to the romance you just watch paid out. I get the joke of like, right, and then in an instant maybe a bounce off two cars and it's like hackier in a way for him to just go like, ah, right. You know, like the old fashioned car accident. I think in the exact same camera setup, right?

It was just one car. Yeah. And then you cut to black the old fashioned car accident thing. I think in the exact same camera setup, right? It was just one car. Yeah, and then you cut to black the second of the impact. Again, that's the boring way to do it, but it's why people do it that way. The old thing is like, oh, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow. Just have it be a bus and it kind of almost pushes him off screen or something. Yeah, and have him not stand in the middle of the street like an idiot. I do like the moment of him almost getting hit backing up and then getting hit by the car.

Aiden Quinn and Prashful Magic. We've talked about this when you have guys like David Dobkin and Peter Farrelly. Shit like The Judge and Green Book. Which are obviously both much worse than this movie. Great films that you want to be mentioned in this same movie. But these broad comedy guys who then are like, I'm ready to grow up, they still can't avoid like having downy little bit of silliness. Hits on Krumholtz's shoes.

They can't avoid the double pizza fold. That like the shit like that. I think this is like the 5% of like Hot Tomorrow's still in his brain. Because if this happened in Hot Tomorrow's, it would not stick out at all. You'd be like, great. Well, it would stick out and then you'd be like, damn, this movie suddenly has money.

Nailed the effect. Sure. Yes. But you're like, if you cut out two of the look backs and he gets hit by one car. Yeah. Yeah. This scene. Lightning. Just zap.

Zap. That would be fun actually. Yeah. If there's like a thunderstorm, he's the first person in New York City to get hit by lightning. There's like skyscrapers everywhere. I just like, car just barely clipping him. He steps back, whoo, lightning bolt. Grand piano.

Or like on Bunker Sunday, goes like, bang! Yeah. But this is like, we're talking about early dossiers. Brest is- What if Shealy shot him? A call forward. A call forward. At the end of the credits it says Shealy shot him? A call forward? A call forward. At the end of the credits it says Shealy will return.

The early dossier's breast was saying like my like film education was not sophisticated. It was like three stooges and little rascals. This is kind of like a three stooges bit. Oh yeah. Right? I'm not defending the decision. I'm just trying to understand where it came from.

I think it was immediately greeted as silly. I think even defending the decision, I'm just trying to understand where it came from. I think it was immediately greeted as silly. I think even at the time, I'd be watching and be like, well, that was weird and jarring and shockingly violent. And it weird with the tone of a film that's largely very somber and slow and thoughtful, that you're kind of like, did that even happen? Do I remember that? In the context of how, again, men felt about Brad Pitt, it felt a little bit like they were punishing him like Hehehe look at you. Yeah, yeah, it's comic. It's like Paris Hilton getting decapitated in House of Wax

Except that this didn't actually happen in real life. Good movie. I think also you didn't get the cap You guys did. Chad Michael Murray's season right? Yeah, but we could do a Jean Colette Sarah season I consider Chad Michael Murray to be the primary tour of his films. Yeah, but we could do a jump collect Sarah season. I consider Chad Michael Murray to be the primary tour of his films Yeah, totally. Yeah. She certainly is in the Brooke Shields film that I just watched. He's in a new CMM BS movie. No the one that was out. I just watched I just watched for the first time Apparently CMM is in Freaky Friday, too Thank God, which was in Freaky Friday, of course. Yeah, I think his first role actually No, he was on Dawson's before that I think nice first film roll. Yeah, you're right. Of course

He was not he was excuse me. He was on excuse me before he was on Dawson's Creek. He was on Gilmore Girls He's Tristan people forget. Okay people Forget one also save in watching Twin Peaks for Lynch series. It's so crazy I already knew this because I'm a Gilmore Girls freak, but it's even more prominent when you rewatch Twin Peaks. How many people Amy Sherman-Pell, you know, pulled from Twin Peaks for Gilmore Girls.

Like, she clearly was like because there's so many they share so many actors. And she was clearly like, I'm also making a weird small town soap. Yes, mine is not Twin Peaks, but like I kind of like embracing the weirdness.

It's so obvious like Sherrilyn Fenn, Machina Ame, Kathleen Wilhody. Like there's all these actors she pulls in. It's really cool. Anyway. Family dinner. Oh, God. Yes. Family. Well, does well, he meets death before the family dinner, right? No. During during during the maid comes by and says, oh, there's someone at the front door.

Or no, he says, is there someone at the front door? He gets the whisper that says, I will be outside the front door. Right, exactly. And he's like, he asked the maid, can you go check to see if someone's there? And then it turns out. And she goes, you're right, there was someone there.

This guy. Goes in library. I think the scene is very good. It's arresting. I like the way they manifest a sort of shimmery non-corporeal form thing. I agree. And there's the other thing, until he comes out from behind the glass, it's still Hopkins doing dialogue with Hopkins, where you're like two great

actors working together. Yeah. And that's how he runs lines back at home in Scotland. Yeah. With himself in the glass. Whales, whales, sorry. When Pitt comes out from behind the glass, he's certainly so striking looking, but you do immediately feel the shift of he cannot sell being this like eternal force. It's a tough thing to do. Hopkins can.

Hopkins can, of course. Like, I was thinking about like, you know, I feel like I was thinking about personifications of death, Griffin. So obviously think at this time, you know, Neil Gaiman's death in The Sandman. Sure. Great character. Where he right. Imagines her as this kind of like peppy young woman. She's like a goth, but she's got like all the energy in the world. And it's like such a clever reversal.

You know, it's now it feels obvious back then. It was like that's just brilliant. Think about Terry Pratchett. Do you ever read those books? Discworld is that what you're talking about? Discworld books. I never did. Death. Did anyone ever read the Discworld books? I'm sure some of our listeners did. Death is a character, big character in Discworld.

There are several books just about him, but he's in all of them because he is Death. And like that's this clever where it's like he looks like Death, like the Grim Reaper. He's a skeleton with a scythe, but he's actually this kind of like quiet philosophical person who really likes people and wants to get to know them. You have multiple movies all wafting off the Bergman, like...

Yes, you've got... Bogus Journey and Last Action Hero. Anything with it's like, right, like a let's do the pale guy in the robe. The hooded knight with the scythe. Right. Yeah, Scepter. I'm trying to think of... Scythe. I guess it's a scythe.

It's a scythe. Death's scythe. It is. It is absolutely. I'm trying to find it like, in film. Like other... I guess the seventh seal is probably forever the king of that. Right? Scrooge stuff.

Sure. Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come is kind of... Your Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. The of... Your ghost of Christmas yet to come. Film's about the personification of death. Here, well, we've got a whole list. OK, give them to me. Death Takes a Holidays on here, a little film called Meets Joe Black. Home Again.

Pico is actually playing death all along in that one. Pico Death Alexander. Honestly, we kind of named a lot of the big ones. Monkey bones on here. Yeah, whoopie Goldberg is death. You know, it's like Brad Pitt's point of it sounding like I got some cool for you. Whoopie is death is a little more I would say in the Sandman varietal of it like of like, oh, this person's not scary at all. This person's fun. But also kind of like stressed out, overworked middle manager. Do you know how much my job sucks?

So here is death. And he's specifically intrigued by the speech that Hopkins gave his daughter. That's what has piqued his interest in appearing to him specifically. You seem to have some understanding of how life should be

lived. And if I'm going to try a week of living and try to make sense of it, you seem like a good guy. Not to mention, you got resources. Right, not to mention a pool. I get to sleep in a mansion. Peanut butter. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

You got all the stuff. Have you ever had peanut butter though? It's so good. It is. I love peanut butter. I had it growing up. I don't even have it with toast. You just eat it.

You just spoon in it. That's what this is. You must be a lot of the child, right? Whose child? OK, we're back on track. The thing is, he doesn't actually do much of that. He does a little he does some of the stuff of like, what is this? Oh, interesting.

But he's not like walking into a door and being like, what's that? You know, like you have to open it like, you know, that's what I think into a door and being like, what's that? You know, and they're like, you have to open it. Like, it's like, he knows how to do a lot of stuff. This is what I think Pitt's good at though. It's like, Pitt is an incredible eye actor. Pitt is so good at like looking at the other actor in the scene and having his eyes dart around, trying to figure out what they're saying. Yeah.

And he does this incredibly well where they don't overplay the like head tilt. What are you talking about? Yes He could just be sort of holding a movie star close up and there's just a certain weird searching blankness in his eyes But I do feel like most People thought he was too blank right like that was the reaction He hasn't shown you yet that he really can play a guy like this with depth You're watching and you're like, well, this is a movie revealing this man's blankness. If he did it now, people would be like,

oh, yeah, he nailed it. Exactly. I think people would be more interested. Yeah, right. I do. Right. Like think of it. I know this isn't a one-to-one, but think of like, uh, uh, De Niro and Jackie Brown, where he's similarly playing this guy who's weirdly kind of like blank and checked out. Yeah. And when you're watching that with like three decades of De Niro being able to load up better than anyone in your back pocket, you're like, it's incredible that he just scooped it all out and gave us nothing. And same with Peter Sellers and being there.

But in this you're just like, so far I know if you wind Brad Pitt up he can like freak out and like fight against his masculinity Or he can stand pretty Right stand pretty but he's too soon to do this kind of thing and I understand why he wanted to do it to prove Himself, but it was just like not the right timing. Who's the right person? Nothing, but you know there's things I like about Brad's performance or whatever, but is there someone else? It hit me really hard while watching it that the other guy in his class who makes a ton of sense, but I also think this would have been out of reach of his craft at the time is Keanu. I mean Keanu would be interesting, but I think it's out of reach. But wouldn't it run into the same thing?

No. The same criticism? No, I'm saying it would have. Yeah. It would have. Yeah. the same criticism? No, I'm saying it would have. It would have. I think he more inherently fits the vibe of what Breast is looking for, and probably would have been better at the romance,

I want to argue, but would have had similar like absolute nonsense. What is this? This is out of his reach. He looks dumb as hell scenes. But you kind of, I mean, maybe I'm just thinking this, but like you can't really do it with just some random actor you picked out of RADA or whatever.

Like, it has to be a movie star. No, you have to be... Yeah. What about Joe Alman, though? Bring him in. Circa 98, too. It would have been what, like six? Cuckoo cuckoo?

I just like... Eating out of all kinds of jars. Butler and Elordi, who are both being talked about as they're like building their movie start careers as sort of like adjacent to early Pitt on similar trajectories. Both of those guys out of the box, innately better actors. Just like innately have better command of craft. And have been given projects that asked them to do that. Totally.

Whereas Pitt, it was this thing, and it's sort of interesting as a counterpoint to Hopkins, right? Where like there are some people who just arrive fully formed or build both aspects up together at the same time. And then you have people who are just like innately movie stars long before they actually figure out how to act.

Right. But there's a thing there. I think we just have less and less of that. Right. And Hopkins is a guy who took 45 years for him to become a movie star, even though he was undeniably a great actor. And here's a movie where like these two guys undeniably hold the screen equally well. But there's a huge gulf in terms of their craft. Yes. Well, certainly. I will say I saw Jacob Elordi in the Paul Schrader movie at Cannes. It's about a national anthem, right?

Oh, yeah. You what? Yes. It's called O Canada. Oh, my God, it is. It's very boring. But Jacob Elordi plays the younger Richard Gere, which totally they look exactly one to one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I found myself thinking, I think that Jacob already might be too tall. He's it's quite it looks like he was sitting in baby furniture like it like.

It was just a little too much and like it felt like Capaldre had to like tilt the camera up like he was kind of like on his tippy toes just to get him in frame like the opposite of when Marco Rubio sat in that big chair. Remember when he did that? You remember what I'm talking about? Yeah. OK. But it's an interesting question.

I agree with you. It has to be someone who has like that undeniable formed level of like command and presence and just like magic happening under their skin and behind their eyes. Another unsourced thing, I saw people saying that in Goldman's mind, and he's writing this for Hackman, he was writing it for Cruise. And Cruise has too much. Like, Cruise would have been too in control for this. He would have been too menacing, too.

Yes. Yeah. And I think DiCaprio would have been too young. But if they did this five years later with DiCaprio, that would be fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. But we've kind of talked through everyone who could have fit into it. Yeah. There weren't that DiCaprio, that would be fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. But we've like kind of talked through everyone who could have fit into it. Yeah, there weren't that many pretty boy movie directors.

Because you need the gravitas of like, this is death. Yeah. He, they have this conversation and death is basically right. Like if you are my guide, you will not die. That's the deal, right? And so- As long as I'm here, I'm not taking it.

And I like that he's like, I'm not saying you're not going to die, but you get extra time. You can hang. How much longer? Who knows? Depends how much fun I'm having, he says. Am I going to like peanut butter? Right. We're going to find out. And then there's how exciting your meetings are. There's an incredibly right. There's an intrigue happening at your company. And I want to go through all of merger shit. Is there like a merger thing happening?

I came here to do three things. Eat peanut butter, fuck your daughter, and learn about the IRS. And I promise you, I'll come into your daughter so fast. It's gonna be so fast. But the scene's gonna be long. The scene will be long and my semen will be dead. It's so funny that her response is, I don't know how to put this, but

it's almost like having sex with someone who's never had sex before. It's such had sex before. It's such an accidental insult. She says it like she's sort of charmed by it. She really actually does a good job making herself sound charmed by it. Like, yo, you don't know how to fuck. Joe Black, there's a really, really brisk, tiny, like five second scene where they explain what his name is to everybody. It takes no time at all whatsoever. And it's definitely

not. It's like one of those Shakespeare play things where someone's like, and will you betray me? And the guy's like, betray you. And then he like turns the audience. It's like betray him. I shout, but I won't tell him that. You know, like, are you just like, do they not know what's going on? It was like, the guy's name, names, what is his name? I'm thinking his name is Joe. And then they all have to be like, yeah, Joe's a name. Or he's just like, what a beautiful name, Joe. And it's like, no, that's not how anyone would react.

It's like, hey, this is my friend Joe. Joe, now that's a name. Joe's a good name, I love the name Joe. Joe, what? And does he have a last name or are we done? If we're done, that's a name Joe's a good name I love the name Joe! Joe what? What do you mean? And does he have a last name or are we done? If we're done that's fine let's just find out. This scene has real GriffBit energy of like if you never stop hitting it it will only

get funnier right? You do the England bit every single time? And then even though, even though, this is a new bit, even though this is he doesn't know the bit. That's funny. We're not talking about the bit. The bit is not being discussed today. It's not the bits a new bit. It's the uber bit.

Even though this film is 180 minutes long, I would say that after Joe Black is introduced and lays out his whole deal practically nothing happens until the end. Yeah. A couple things happen. That basically takes and well that takes almost yeah no that's a long build up to him I wouldn't say it takes an hour but it takes a good chunk of time. I'll admit I've watched 40 minutes. I watched part of this movie at night before sleep part of this movie again upon wake. Uh-huh. So I was like time coding certain points. First bite of peanut butter is forty five minutes. That makes sense. Right.

And then it's like what happens after that? There's the merger drama and Jack gets Joe Black gets with Yeah, Claire for one. And the party must be a crazy thing where you have the dinner scene where they meet Joe. Yes. And then for whatever reason, Bill is like, I want to do dinner at my house again. And to the point that his secretary is like, but didn't you just do that last night? And he's like, and so we just go back to the same scene. And when he shows up again for dinner, everyone is crying, being like, you want to see us again? Yes. There's this weird tone,

right? Or he's just like, no, don't worry about it. I mean, I know you're all planning a party for me, but I want to hang out constantly. And this guy will be here the whole time and don't worry about him either. But he certainly does not seem like an absentee father. That's the thing. I really love the Marcia Gay Harden scene later. One, cause she's an exceptional actor, especially this is her era where you're kind of like,

ah, she's always good. Like, you know, when's she going to weirdly win an Oscar? Right, when she quietly wins an overdue Oscar two years later. Um, but, uh, that scene where she's basically saying, saying what you're saying, where she's like, you have always worked and, you know, we have our own way of talking to each other, but you have never really not been there for me. Right. It's a nice scene.

Yes, it is. And like that lays out how you imagine Hopkins has been. Because yes, Claire Follani is clearly the darling apple of his eye who's not annoying. Marcia Gay Harden's a little annoying. But this feeling of a guy who is very present, but also in some ways, maybe a little inaccessible, while being friendly, supportive, generous. He's not making anyone do boar on the floor or whatever. There's an age difference between Harden and Farlani where you're like,

maybe when Marcia Gay Harden was younger, he was a bit more distant, you know, whatever. And then Forlani was like, she's like 10 years old baby. And yes, Forlani at an age where he is so conclusively made it that he can control his schedule a little more and he can choose his battles. And she's the do over where he can be more connected with her. I mean, this is sort of breast stuff where I'm like, in anyone else's bad version of this movie, there isn't that much thought into the dynamics, which isn't to say this movie is like, subtle, but you're just like, it is clearly thought through. And that stuff sort of like bleeds into

the sort of text of the movie. And that is sort of like 50 take shit. You know, to a certain extent of just like forcing these actors to live with this shit over and over again to try to find some... Totally. And I think that like, you know, watching the Marcia Gay Harden stuff, she's so good at it, she really elevates the material, but like, you could look at it from one angle of like, oh well, you know, okay, straight guy has to write this, you know, middle-age-ish

woman character and what's her thing? She's just obsessed with flowers and parties and whatever. But what you're actually, what you kind of are learning throughout the course of the film is that like, oh no, this is how she forever is trying to prove to him that she loves him and just trying to get him to say it back, to thank her, to whatever. So it could be anything, not a party,

maybe it's something else, you know? And so I think if you actually look at it, it's actually a very sensitive depiction of that relationship that would be flattened out and cheapened in less caring hands. I agree with you. I also think there is intelligence to the characterization of Quince,

the Jeffrey Tambor character, and their relationship, which is on its face, the way this movie is front-loading the don't marry Jake Webber thing, you're like assuming the movie's gonna point to the hardened Tambor relationship as this is the marriage you don't want. A guy who works for your dad who's kind of a dunce, right?

And unlike Jake Webber, this guy looks like Jeffrey Tambor. Right, he's kind of silly. He's at like, Pete Hanks Kingsley, he can't stop fucking up, kind of mode. He drinks a little too much. Right. And instead you're like, there is a meaningful relationship there. He's fundamentally a good guy. He's a little goofy and embarrassing, but she's with him because she actually loves him in spite of everything that's a little silly. Right. Exactly.

This movie is crazy. It's insane. Right. Like, the. This movie is crazy. It's insane. Right, like the plot of the movie is that Jake Webber is the one pushing for, this is the A plot, honestly, is pushing for this merger with some sort of corporate giant. Hopkins is initially on board, because why not, I guess, and now that his legacy is all he has to think about,

he's like, no, I don't want to do it. And he slowly realizes that Webber is basically just like a corporate raider sent over by the other guys to strip the company for parts, right? Like that's what's going to happen. And Tambor is his loyal deputy who has kind of betrayed him, right? Is kind of using being used as a wedge. Yeah. But he loyal deputy who married the boss's daughter. Exactly. And he loves Anthony Hopkins. Yeah. Right. He's not a wom scam. Right. In the way that he's like in love with his power. He actually likes the guy. He loves this guy. Yeah. And you're just watching this being like, is no one here? Like, I mean, yeah, Weber, I guess, but he's like, you know, like no one here is kind of like a cold blooded, like, you know, rich person. Yeah. Like, like

Tambor is just like oh I actually love the old man and you're just like it just you can imagine audiences being like where is like the grit to this movie because it's nowhere and as I mean if that's the a plot which I think I agree with sort of is then the B plot is like B A B and C right like they're like 1B 2B 3B the three romances PB the three romances are for Lonnie and Pitt yeah which is the most straightforward in a way right then there's Hopkins and Pitt which is sort of like Hopkins learning to accept the idea of death right it's kind of moving through all of the movie

and learning to love life or appreciate, understand it. And then the third one is like Hopkins with his daughters. Yes. Learning to finally connect with them in the most meaningful way in his final moments. And that's all meaty shit. It is kind of corporate espionage. Should I? It's kind of like whatever. Well, also, it's just weird because it's Hopkins going like, won't do it we're not gonna do it right I say no right and everyone's Like yeah, okay. That's kind of a disaster for us. Also Who's this guy and obviously he's just here. Don't worry about it. Like what are you talking about?

I like just have a guy here I like it shows up to every meeting and he refuses every time they ask who he is. He stammers as much as in the introduction at the dinner scene. One of the board member guys is like, he's had advisors before and it's like, how many times has this happened that he's brought some weird guy? It's just like, welcome, it's James White over here. He's just like collecting people and then hunting them or something. It's also a little bit of what we've talked about with like the Dwayne Johnson problem

of every modern Dwayne Johnson movie. Every time he walks a room every character should be like who the fuck is this? What did you do? How did this happen? How are you looking like this? He's had other advisors before. You're like like this guy? Exactly. But the tension as it were, obviously the main tension is that Hopkins must die. Tension, as it were, obviously the main tension is that Hopkins must die. The one day this will all get cut. You know, the original title of the Aaliyah Jet Lead. Correct. Right. They were trying to knock him off. Yeah. And he was too fast for him.

He's slippery. But then the as death, Joe grows closer to Susan Forlani, there's this sort of tension risk of like, wait, what does this mean? Is he going to essentially take her to the underworld? We dealing with a Persephone here? I feel like we've seen- Like, what does it mean? And like Hopkins goes from,

no, fall in love with the prettiest straw colored haired person you ever meet. And then he's like, well, I would be careful about Joe Black. I don't want to say anything about the guy, but he's not going to be around forever. You know? The, uh, I feel like there were a lot of, like,

supernatural comedies like this. His cum is filled with skulls. Where the thing you're building to, his cum is filled with skulls, and it comes faster than you could ever imagine. That was the post. That was the line in the original poster. Meet Joe Black. His cum is full of skulls.

And he comes fast. Cumming and the O is a skull from October 1998. poster, Bicho Black, his com is full of skulls. And he comes fast. Coming and the O is a skull from October 1998. Coming to theaters too soon. And actually it did probably come out too soon. It probably did. The original trailer, the Benny Hill theme, is playing the whole time. Of course.

And he's just splooging everywhere. The original trailer, the Benny Hill theme is playing the whole time. Of course. Yeah. He's just splooging everywhere. So many movies like this, the obvious like solve at the end is the guy has to give up his supernatural status and become a human being in order to stay with the woman. There was an interesting tension that this movie is setting up where it's like, that's not even in question. And you're sort of watching it going like, are they gonna fucking bail themselves out by doing that, which they don't.

And it is interesting that the original film just has him fucking take the woman. And she wants to do it. It's a voluntary thing. And I but I like the way that they kind of deal with that in this where Bill, when he hears this plan, he's like clearly terrified and doesn't want that to happen, but he can't... But he knows there's no point in overreacting and screaming and pleading. He's like, that's not how this entity works.

And also realizing that, sure, death as embodied by Joe is learning to feel and whatever, but he's been some version of a stone cold sociopath since time began, you know? And so he doesn't see anything wrong or anything like a big deal with taking. Because he's barely a consciousness. He's basically just an idea that is like a function.

And again, the movie has no interest, possibly wisely in asking questions about this, such as, right, what does it mean that he's taking a holiday? Are people not dying? What does that mean? Not asking that question? Where is he from? What does he do all day? Like what you know, right? It's it's it knows I think that like if you do that you're gonna get in trouble Does no one die until they walk over bread? He says something about everybody. Is he like Santa Claus? Can be everywhere at once like and he says

Does he meet everybody? Is he like Santa Claus? Can he be everywhere at once? And he says the thing about making infinity, like times that by infinity or whatever. There's some reference to how he can be everywhere at once or whatever. But they're not, and it's like, again, it's not like, which is kind of the same as Sam Man Death or whatever, where they're always like, where am I going? And she's like, don't worry about it. Like, I'm here to take you. That's what my job is. This is one of the ideas I find kind of interesting in this movie, as much as it doesn't totally know how to unpack it, is they're not treating it like death is a guy in a hood with a skull face

who holds a fucking scythe and lives up in the clouds or lives down in the fucking underworld. And now he has taken a human body. It almost treats it like this has never been a consciousness before. And now- Right, death is like a force. Exploring being a consciousness. Right, our friend Pilate's great line

about Hayden Christensen in the Star Wars prequels that every line is delivered like he's never said anything before. Yes. Yeah, that's good. There's that quality to Joe Black that's not even the baby thing. It's like, how does this, you know, Sweeney too, also really good at that.

I would say. Sweeney, Jake Sully running around in his avatar body like this kind of feeling. Um, it's almost, it's almost AI becoming sentient or something. Yeah. Yeah. And this like, by the time this drops, This final 45 minutes, not to zoom all the way ahead, but the final 45 minutes of like four, three 15 minute long conversation shot and tight closeups. Right?

While Thomas Newman is like almost dying, like right. He's playing all 10 toes on the piano as well. Thomas is fucking the cello. He's not Joe Block style, exactly, not fast. They are kind of trying to wrestle with the darkness of this idea that feels like the thing that stopped Martin Bress from putting his second pant leg on, right? Which is like, what the fuck are you talking about? What does it mean for someone to go with death?

Where he's sort of presenting his romantic idea, you have the moment and he keeps on saying like, I'm not going to be here for long. Hopkins is saying he's not going to be here for long. She's saying I'll go with you. He's saying you can't. And you're like, when is rubber going to meet the road? And the moment she puts it all together, she immediately is like, oh, you're right. I can't go with you. What the fuck are you talking about? What is this? And also, I think he quote unquote, you know, death, whatever, you know,

it realizes like, no, you love this, this body, this person that this once was. You don't love me because why would you love me? I literally just stand around eating peanut butter. Writing of like when he walks into the dinner party, she says like, oh my God, I expect to see you again. He doesn't hear the full story when she's actually quoting the shit back to him He's like our entire relationship is built on a dynamic that was established by a different person That I'm not and also if he has been taught anything about life and what its value is

He understands how selfish it is for him to take her away That's what I like about the Hopkins confrontation where he basically says to Hopkins like look I'm probably gonna take basically says to Hopkins, like, look, I'm, I'm probably going to take your daughter. And Hopkins is like, like you say, he doesn't get too mad because he knows what's the point, but he is like, you wouldn't be saying this to me if you didn't think it was wrong. Like, you know, there's something wrong about what you're proposing and that's why you're

mentioning it. You would just do it if you wanted to do it. He's not even responding like you aren't actually in love. He's like, what's scary to me is I do believe both of you feel in love with each other and you're not thinking through what is actually being presented. Talk about a bad boyfriend. Well, sure. Dad, can you meet my new boyfriend?

Oh, what's his job? He's the Grim Reaper. What's his cum full of? What? It certainly, it trickles out slowly after multiple hours. Full of fleshed heads with hair, right, yes. Tips unfrosted, I hope. Certainly it trickles out slowly after multiple hours. Full of fleshed heads with hair, right? Tips unfrosted, I hope.

Chad Hartigan. The Jelly Man, yes. The director Chad Hartigan loves this film. I read his article about it. Did you read his article about it? I did. On TalkHouse.com, where he talks about how much. It was a very fun article. Because I saw on Letterboxd that he rated this like five stars

and it's like, this is one of the most important films to me, I understand that's basically not true for anybody else and that's fine. Yeah, I, after recording, well it's another future episode, but I was, I saw a screening of The Wiz recently, there was a summer in the park screening of The Wiz that similarly is a movie for me where I'm just like- A big movie for you at the right age to

Three hour movie that everyone else is like everything about this is wrong and I'm like it just all makes sense to me I can't argue it works, but I'm just so on the wavelength of this thing even though I think parts of it are unbearable But Hartigan talks about how obsessed he was with Jim Carrey when he was young much like many people our age age and doing Jim Carrey impressions and seeing all the Jim Carrey movies. And then when he saw this movie with a girl in the theater when he was 16 years old, it was like one of the quietest, most grown up movies he'd seen at that point in a theater. And like, you know, what a like, you know, obviously films about the meaning of love and the meaning of life, right? And all this stuff. And Pitt, obviously, is the opposite of a Jim Carrey performance in this movie.

He's silent. He's observing. He's doing zero bits apart from one bit about how things will be. This movie would possibly be the single worst version of this movie. What is this stuff? He's just full majestic, hyper earnest. Yeah. The whole hospital scene is just him talking up his butt. And that, well, that sounds pretty good.

That seems funny. I did have- And like, he basically taught me to like, be a good listener, right? Like to how to behave as an adult, to stop doing fucking Jim Carrey bits. Yeah. And then he says like, I've seen the film 30 more times. I really feel like, yeah, it's this symphonic, you know, beautifully realized,

like, gorgeously mounted production, blah, blah, blah. But I recommend reading the article just because it's just a funny read. I co-sign that. And it is. This film just does feel kind of unique. Yeah, it does. I was watching, it wasn't on this rewatch, it was one previous with all the fireworks at the end.

And I was like, oh wait, that's why in every play I wrote in college, there is either a stage direction that says fireworks or characters referred to there being fireworks later on. And it's like, it's because I was obsessed with this final sequence. It felt like the ultimate emotional heightening of and then fireworks are going off in the background

while all of this catharsis is happening. And like, wouldn't it be lovely if all of life, all lives had that sort of happened at the end and a grand party and you know, I just, I find as ponderous and probably repetitive as the final 30 minutes of this movie are, I find them captivating. I agree, I think they're kind of a triumph. I mean. The ending is the 30 minutes of this movie are, I find them captivating. I agree. I think they're kind of a triumph.

I mean, the ending is the best part of the movie. It's just as slow. Yeah. But right, you're kind of on the hook at this point and you're like, what is the, like, how will this all play out? If the movie was like half an hour shorter, I don't think there's any version of this movie that totally works for everyone. Right? But you're like, if the party starts at an hour and 45, this movie's a lot more manageable.

There's a friend of mine, Josh Perillo, who directed a comedy show I did years and years ago, used this term once that has always stuck with me where he was like, you got like three pause tokens. You got three tokens in your pocket for when you can choose to slow something down to make it feel like it has more impact. And if you use that trick more than three times, it suddenly means nothing. And it starts to get repetitive. And this is a movie that's like pockets full of pause tokens.

Falling out in its pockets. Whereas like if the last 45 minutes,, if everything once you got to the party slowed down to this pace, it would feel like levitational maybe, of like, I cannot believe the state of like, meditative, concentrated conversational intensity this film is at. It would be like Cemetery of Splendor.

Kind of, yeah. I like Joe Black pretending to be an IRS agent. As much as I don't care about the plotline as much. It's a fun solution to that plotline. But the writing all of a sudden becomes something totally different. It does. It becomes Beverly Hills. It's fucking Axel Foley pretending to be a different guy.

Yeah, because Pitt has that like mini little monologue where he's like talking about the levels of whatever and it almost sounds like pseudo Kevin Williamson or something. It's very weird. The script just kind of veers into this other thing. Not to repeat what I just said, but it's litmus configuration. It is this type of scene that Brest did a bunch in his comedies,

where a guy just finesses his way through a situation by committing really hard to a bit. Yeah, yeah, it's weird. I also- But it's fun. Yeah, there is just, there's an energy to that scene of like, it's time to wrap this up. This was the tension of the movie, but it's not actually important at the end of the day. And like, let's just get to the happy ending, which is like, Weber, you are disgraced.

You know, company saved. Tambor redeemed. Vindicated. Right. Right. You know, Hopkins can sort of leave this being like, great. My legacy is in safer hands. There's like a catharsis to this scene wraps up all of this

in a tidy bow so the movie can go back to the emotional shit and only worry about that. And done. Yeah. And if I'm watching this movie in the theater and I paid, you know, nine whole dollars or whatever I would pay in 1998, I might be kind of like,

why did we spend so much time on this given that it just kind of gets wrapped up in one neat like fell swoop, whatever, but whatever. like, why did we spend so much time on this, given that it just kind of gets wrapped up in one neat, like, fell swoop, whatever, but whatever. You talk about in episodes, in our next two consecutive miniseries that we have already recorded about hating alternate, unofficial cuts.

I do, I mean, not hating, but like, especially, right, the type of where someone's basically like, I kind of made a cut. Yeah. That's not totally sanctioned, but it's out there if you want it. I have no question that to quote Elaine May, the no business cut of this movie, let's say the unmoleted cut of this film, right? It's long everywhere. Party in the front, party in the back.

Right, a lot of party. Yeah. Big party. I have no question it messes with the ecology of the back. Right, a lot of party. Yeah. Big party. I have no question it messes with the ecology of the film. I'm sure it does. I'm sure this two hour version, right? Yeah, it doesn't really. I would be very curious to just see how the movie plays.

Well, you just don't focus on that shit. Go back in time and watch it. Was that on a plane or yeah, on an air TV? I don't know. If any of our listeners have any ripped a version of that or a lead on it, please let me know. But this film is not like G. Lee where Breast is basically like after the fact, like look, they kind of fucked with the movie

beyond recognition and like this is the free, you know. This is the movie he wanted to make. Yeah. Like, and yeah, as he says, if you don't like it, right, he'll own that, right. Like, you know, you don't like the pacing, I understand. I kind of love that his attitude isn't people were wrong about that. No, he's like, I hear you.

Yeah, I can't argue with that. This is exactly what I made and what I wanted to make. And obviously someone like Pitt, right? Well, like people like to get those soundbites from actors of like, ah, what the fuck? I'd mess that one up. But usually, and I feel like this is the case with Pitt here, it's him being like, I think I could have done a better job.

Not him being like, oh, that movie is just a calamity. Like, you know, he talks fondly about what Brest was going for. Yeah, it's interesting. I can't think of many movies that Pitt throws under the bus. There are a lot of films where he's critical of himself and says, I shouldn't have been there. He's critical of himself in California. I remember that. Like, there's a few, you know films where he's critical of himself and says I shouldn't have been he's critical of himself in California I remember that like there's a few you know where he's Troy

He he always talks about that way of just like that's a boring character to me. I shouldn't have been there I didn't have a handle whatever but I think it's always like Incredible production. I was surrounded by good actors. Well things good at that kind of thing He always kind of avoids being like that movie was boring Yeah, the film do we have anything else to say about me Joe black before I tell you about the release of me Joe black He always kind of avoids being like that movie was boring. Yeah. The film, do we have anything else to say about Meet Joe Black before I tell you about the release of Meet Joe Black? I mean, I want to actually talk about the two Jamaican patois scenes for a moment.

I don't think we should talk about it for that much longer, but the niceness of the meaning behind it. Everything that's bizarre and jarring about it. But yeah, I think the actual meat of it is the core of what Breast is trying to do here, which is this elderly woman in a hospital. If we remove all of the cultural context of what the scene is doing, that is so distracting, right? This elderly woman with a mother who's about to go in, with her daughter rather, pushing her in her wheelchair, is about to go in for surgery with Claire Frelani.

Brad Pitt's there to visit her and this woman immediately like recognizes him as a demon, like starts calling him the cultural name. She's like, you've come for me. Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, she's close enough. I think the idea would be right. Like on the edge of death, that she sees him and she's right. At the thin place. Yeah. And the inverse of death takes she sees him and she's right. At the thin place, yes. Right. And the inverse of Death Takes a Holiday, which is getting a lot of comedic juice out

of a world where death isn't possible. This is a movie where no one's talking about the idea of people not dying, and in fact he does kill someone on screen. But it is in this sort of like dance of intimacy, of almost being like, I mean the way people talk about like death doulas. Sure. intimacy of almost being like, I mean, the way people talk about like death duelists. Sure. You know where it's like he exists to try to help give her a seamless transition to the other side as she's trying to come to terms with this thing. And Hopkins dies in the film as well, although in a much more metaphorical way. Very elegant, I guess.

Which I also think to the sort of like visual simplicity of what Brest was doing, the sort of like visual simplicity of what Breast was doing, I do get choked up at just fucking Hopkins stoically walking over that bridge with Pitt and Pitt walking back alone. And I get choked up at the dying woman saying like, you know, I know that you saw a little pretty, you know, took a lot of pretty pictures, but like, you know, we're all pretty lonely here on this side, down here too, you know?

And asking if she's ready to go and he's like, did you get enough pretty pictures? And she's like, yeah. Like, the idea that like, yes, there are nice things in life, but they are not, nothing is permanent. Like, I just, I think it's kind of... And all of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, it's a, refreshingly for a studio film in 1998, it does not have, it has a comforting outlook on death, but not in the way you'd think. You know? Yes, and consider that within a month of this movie's release, Universal puts out Patch Adams, which if you're talking about like fucking death bed,

bigger bedside manner scenes, a huge hit. Yeah. Right? Like that's the movie that's doing the absolutely disgusting saccharine version of this. Versus like Meet Your Black, which is kind of saying something bracing, which is just like, there maybe isn't any true happiness. There maybe isn't any real meaning to this. It's like collecting the moments. Telling a manifestation of death itself.

Death actually isn't that scary if you think about it. Because life doesn't really make that much sense. And as you said, you just hope you come away with it with enough nice moments. Yeah, it's like in Let Them All Talk, you know, the cruise is actually life. All of life is a cruise. You're just on a journey from one place to the next, and it's full of weird, you know, whatever. Like, and that stuff can be corny, but I don't think it's corny in either case.

And there is a bluntness to her performance and a lack of, like, razzle dazzle, like fireworks. You know, the stuff that Brest is trying to avoid in the making of this film that's very similar to what Hopkins is doing, where it's just like, this is lived in. This is someone who is speaking from some real well of feeling and does not need to dress it up. And then it's this perfect encapsulation of the entire movie that scene is playing against

an uncomfortable looking Brad Pitt doing the most ill-advised dialect imaginable. It's just kind of the whole movie is right there. It is like the movie's greatest profundity and its greatest mistake. Yeah, there it is. Literally in conversation with each other. Whoa, guys. I don't even know how to say, I just,

I feel like I've been microdosing. OK. I don't even know where that episode went. What episode do you think we're recording right now? What's the last thing you OK, I don't even know where that episode went. What episode do you think we're recording right now? What's the last thing you remember? I don't even know. We've been jumbled up in our recording schedule so much. I feel like I might have been acting weird. I'm sorry about that.

Well, no, we were at the coffee shop. Yeah, right. Right. And we remember that. Yeah, we were all getting horny. There was a four way. eye fucking contest going on. This is maybe crazy. Were you talking about cum bones? Yeah, we were talking about cum.

I might have cum up. Cum skulls. Not my finest hour. Seamen bone. Wait, cum skulls. I don't know if I came across as acting kind of goofy, like walking into scenes, kind of just not saying anything and like, you know, chewing scenery you know, I actually thought you had a lot of presents I will I will say Ben. I really wish you'd been able to know my father. There is a weird backlash

I will say though against what you just did that's kind of building out there. So watch out for that People are mad. But then people are gonna I don't see anything behind me Ben just talk you through this. this yeah people are gonna be mad Yeah, then they're gonna totally forget about then but then yeah Just do some other stuff and they'll be fine and then like 15 years from now get a lot of attention Maybe for the wrong reasons, but it's kind of innocent and innocuous keep an eye out for you, too. Yeah Do you think when YouTube was created breath? It was like fuck they're gonna put these like a car crash and the fucking Jamaican pet Brad Pitt was like, fuck, they're gonna put the fucking car crash in, the fucking Jamaican patois.

It's so screwed. And the peanut butter, which is kind of like, is this the first major Brad Pitt eating movie to this degree? Yeah. I can't speak to like Johnny Swade or Ray. Those really early ones. I haven't seen them in a long time. It's definitely not the first time he ate on camera, but the idea of multiple scenes

where you're just watching him lick a spoon for minutes. Yeah. I was kind of doing a Brad Pitt face. But all bits aside, this movie does really watch like your friend took three hits of acid and is just trying to act normal in front of your parents. That is what the acting is. You're not.

And then your parents are like, what's your friend's name? And they're like, ah, yeah. I'm gonna tell you his name. It's coming. First name's gonna come first. Some of the scenes where Pitt. Almost there almost there walks in in like a loose suit and you just see him not know what to do with his Hands that I think are borderline subtle

Yeah, there's just choices that are right that are actually more than just he's standing there Like it's he's not just like going limp and blank. Like there is choices. Did this movie hit you at all emotionally, Ben? Or were you too? No, the end was effective. Got me for sure. Yeah.

There's stuff in here. There's stuff. For sure. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what else was in Meet Joe Black. The trailer for Star Wars episode one, The Phantom Menace. Yeah, this weird thing black the trailer for star wars episode one the Phantom Menace yeah this weird thing where the trailer was not exclusively attached to this movie this was a universal

movie and that was a fox movie true it was on some other releases i remember the weekend this movie came out not to get ahead of box office game although this would have been a more limited release i remember being it was a no, no, what I'm about to tell you. Okay. Okay. I remember being very angry that as weekend movie outing with the family, my parents voted waking Ned divine when I desperately wanted to see me Joe black because of the trailer and I was so fucking grumpy being dragged to waking Ned divine and then the fucking Phantom Menace teaser popped up before it and the relief I felt where I was like, well now I can enjoy Irish people.

I mean taking a child to waking that divine. I had a great time, especially when I was fucking running off the high of Jar Jar Binks. Right. Yeah. It is true that yes, this film has acquired the reputation of being the movie that you had to see to see the Phantom Menace trailer when in fact, the trailer was attached to everything that was in theaters. And then there was this belief of like, well, everyone bought tickets to Meet Joe Black and then left after the trailers and didn't watch the movie,

which doesn't explain why this movie opened poorly. Like that math has never mathed for me. Yeah, maybe it would have opened even worse. I don't know. That's the question. Are you arguing that this movie would have made a $10 million opening weekend if there weren't any cool posts about the trailer maybe being in front of it? Maybe. The film didn't do very well. We'll talk about the box office in a second. Did it okay overseas? Yeah, because of the pit factor. It ends up making one... office in a second okay overseas yeah

no one's happy I remember this getting a guy obviously not obviously no awards attention. Sure. Which it was supposed to. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A two disc, high-end packaging, special edition DVD at a time where two discs had barely been breached as a concept. It felt arrogant almost to do. It was hubris. And I remember holding it up at the video store and being like, this got two discs? And it's like, oh, the second disc is Death Takes a Holiday.

Oh, that's fun. That was the thing, which I thought was fun, but I was like, it's not like you did like fucking 20 hours of special features. You just put a second movie on there. Film film got bad reviews. Ebert liked it. Ebert, I think, liked it more than Scent of a Woman. Possibly.

He gave it three stars. Everyone else of the big critics, I think, did not really like it. Thought it was trickly and slow, which it is. Yeah, you can't argue with that. I can't deny that. Right, both of those things. It's not a movie any of us are gonna argue as a masterpiece that everyone's wrong about.

No, I'm not going to argue that, but I was interested by how much I sort of vibe with what it was going for. I could see myself rewatching it. I could see myself getting in the mood. Will I ever watch it straight through beginning to end in one sitting? I don't know, but if I heard there was a rep screening happening of this, I'd be a little curious to see how it plays.

In a theater, sure. If they were like, there's a 35 millimeter print of me, Joe Black, and you can sit in a room with strangers and see how people ride out. And it was like a hundred degree day. I'm like, Hey, great. Get me in there. Absolutely. The film came out November 13th, 1998.

It's opening. Flubber time. Flubber season. We already covered that was a year earlier. Flubber is 97. But the same time of year. But it is right. That's what I meant.

It is forever. It's what Hollywood calls Flubber season. What kind of Flubber season this year? Well, Wicked. Wicked. Oh, it's got the whole kind of Flubber. Which is green. What color is Flubber? I What kind of Flubber season this year? Well, Wicked. Wicked. Oh, the Flubber season. Which is green. What color is Flubber, I was gonna say?

Green. She's sort of Flubbery in a way, and that she's green. And there's the mad scientist. You remember when Flubber came out and they had not advertised that it was part one of two, and people got so mad. People got so furious.

It ends with Flubber ascending into the sky. Yes. And you're in coming evil. The cars start flying, and you don't know if it's gonna land or not. Speaking of Flubber, Marcia Gay Harden. Yep. Is she in Flubber ascending into the sky. Yes. And you're coming even. The car starts flying and you don't know if it's going to land or not. Speaking of Flubber, Marcia Gay Harden. Yep. Is she in Flubber?

Is she in Flubber? That's a sign that I haven't seen Flubber since 1997. You're forgetting that the opening of Flubber is that Robin Williams. I'm forgetting everything about Flubber to be clear. Gotta give Flubber another spin. Alright, so there's the professor. Have you heard of that? Another bounce, please.

A true bounce. I mean, it is a bounce about but I'm just saying lover bounces Yeah, that's what I'm saying The opening of that film is that Robin Williams is so busy working on perfecting his recipe for flubber He forgets to show up to his wedding That's right Of course It's a remake of the absent minded professor and the way they update that for my time says he's so absent

He doesn't show up it opens number three at the box office Griffin 15 million dollars And where was flubber in the box office Griffin 15 million dollars. And where was Flubber in the box office? Flubber is not seen here. I do not see Flubber. A year later was already out of theaters. It's already out of theaters. It's not in its 50th week. It was like bend her. It just kept coming back. Number one at the box office is a holdover from last week. Okay. It was a gigantic hit. In what genre? Comedy! It's a funny, it's a laughter. Oh it's a... I just want to see if he gets it from this. The waterman? What? Jesus Christ. It is the water boy. It's Adam Sandler as the water boy. Yeah. I still say, anytime I'm saying to

my partner or anybody you can do it, I say, you can do it. You have to. I can't, and that's 25 years of that. 26 years of that. There is simply no choice. You can do it. The Waterboy might be the stupidest fucking movie he ever made, right?

I did a pretty serious. It's funny that Kathy Bates had Titanic one year and then that the next year. I did a pretty serious. What stupidity? What? Tanler. I would check with your time code right to find the super part. Sorry. I mean it. Zero, zero, zero, zero. And then watch until the end of the movie and you're going to see it. All right. What were you saying? Griffin? I did a pretty

serious blind spot filling and rewatching and that movie just is so strange. It is so weird that that was like his breakthrough. That's where they're like, congratulations, you are now the ultimate A-lister. It's the moment also right where it's like, whatever you pitch is greenlit. Yeah. Because if this worked this big,

like yeah, you must just like be good at everything. I think it was when he was on Conan's podcast, but he was talking. Conan was saying how strategic Sandler always was about his career, that people thought he was dumb and he really thought about things at length. And he was like, well, like Wedding

Singer was a point where I felt like I need to try to play slightly more of a real guy. Let me test the people by me as romantically crucial to his career. But he did that. And that comes out I think in February of 98. And then Waterboy is November of 98. And then May or June of 99 is Big Daddy. Waterboy is sandwiched between two movies where he's

trying to find the middle ground of like, stunted adolescent rage, but I'm playing a real guy. You can have real emotions. He's playing a guy who pays rent and knows where his keys are and can make pasta in a pot. And in between he made the most bananas. Yeah. Where you're like, do you think the guy in Billy Madison was a little too put together and smart? Great.

Here's the water bottle. And that was the one where America was like, congratulations, you were elected mayor of Hollywood. It's also like after years of him being on SNL everyone being like I'm kind of sick of The guy who just does that fucking voice. He's like well the whole movie is me doing that voice That is almost as sweaty as Ratatouille where you're like, what is the internal logic? His anger is so repressed that if he visualizes the football as something

else, he can kick it really hard, but only if he can redirect the anger and then it can turn into something else. The water boys number one, it's making $24 million in its second weekend. So it's made 80 mil in two weeks. It opened a foot. It did. Yeah. And it's gonna end up making $161 million. Cumancus. Number two at the box office. And I think this is the one it kind of stings to be opening below.

The Waterboy you can at least beat. I'm sure Martin Brest watched the Waterboy with a pretty straight face. Like I don't think Martin Brest was like a worthy opponent. Like, but at least he's like, look, the movie's a phenomenon. That's what I was gonna say. It's a big hit. It's a phenomenon. This was like a worthy opponent. Like, but at least he's like, look, the movie's a phenomenon. It's a big hit. It's a phenomenon.

This one is a horror sequel and it's opening to $16.5 million over Meet Joe Black. It wouldn't be, it's too late for Scream 2. It's not a Scream, but it's certainly in that ballpark. Is it, I still know? It's I still know what you did last summer. You don't wanna lose to I still know? It's I still know what you did last summer. You don't wanna lose to I still know. Where like the whole joke is the title.

They've done no other work. Correct. They're like, I know what you did last summer is a great title for a horror movie. That movie is fun. And they're like, should we just do a sequel that's called I still know? Should we just do that?

What if we, yeah, it was like a joke that then they were like, but wait a second. And someone else, we're like, let's just fucking do it. Like someone's like, should Brandy be in it? Like, let's just put Brandy in it. What's this fucking thing? Jack Black in it. Yeah. And he's a Rastafarian.

Everything's going to be irie. So I still know what you did last summer, which I think I've seen, but I have no memory of. I've never even seen the first one. The first one is fun. It's not like a brilliant film, but it's, you know, it's perfectly good. The fisherman? He's, yeah, he's a, he's got a hook.

Yeah. And he knows what you did last summer. But certainly he doesn't still know. He must have forgotten by now. He'll always know. Okay. Right? That was the third one.

Top tier Ryan Felipe in that movie too. I believe they're making a new one. Yeah. Top tier Ryan, but that's in, I know. I still know the only a new one. Yeah, top tier Ryan. But that's in I know. I still know the only survivors. Spoiler alert are Jennifer Love Hewitt and Freddie Prince Jr. The rest have died at the hands of the hook guy. Including Pete Sampras' future wife.

Brigitte Wilson. Yeah. Indeed. So that's Beating Me Joe Black. Number four at the box office. Oh, he mentioned this director. Thriller, big movie star. That's beating me Joe Black. Number four at the box office. Oh, he mentioned this director. Thriller, big movie star.

I think this movie's kind of bad. Is it Gibson? No. Is it Gere? No. Is it, it's not Cruz? No. Big movie star, like that A-list here, it's not a four?

In my, I am oh yes. But it's a little debatable? I mean, to me, no. But to others? Maybe, I don't know. Adult thriller. Yeah, it's a big action thriller. It's kind of like a, you know,

what if this terrible thing happened kind of movie. I don't know, it's really hard to describe this movie. Huh, and it's the director we already mentioned. Yeah, we mentioned him. What studio? The studio is, uh, 20th Century Fox. It's not Con- Well, you said it wasn't Mel. I was gonna say conspiracy theory.

It's not any of the state. No. It's a little closer to the vibe. Director we've already mentioned. What if this happened? So it's got a big star. Oh, it says it's it's the siege. Wow. I was about to start queuing up the Bruce Willis as well. Fascinating movie. It is politically fascinating, but I do think it's stupid.

It was kind of the Civil War of its time. In a way, if you read all the hand wringing in the press leading up to its release. Yes, I would say it's stupider than Civil War. And I might have my issues in Civil War, but I think the siege is a little dumber. But yes, right. You know, speculative, like the day after tomorrow kind of like terrorism is suddenly everywhere and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Denzel and at Benning, Bruce Willis. It's a big, big trio. Yes. Bruce Willis with the and.

Mm hmm. It's Ed Zick, Ed Wick movie, obviously. Number five at the box office is an animated film. Is it Anastasia? No. Is it the Rugrats movie? No. 98?

Mulan. Nope. It's not yet A Bug's Life. That comes later. But what is it? If it's not A Bug's Life. It's Ants. Ants! Ants with a Z! Ant with a Z. Ants. But what is it? If it's not a Bugs life. It's ants.

Ants with a Z. Ants. You ever seen ants, Ben? Oh right. You haven't seen any movies. No, he's back. Oh right. You're back. Sorry. You ever seen ants? No. OK, great. Written by... I saw Bugs Life. Written by our friend Chris Weitz.

He did write it. Number six at the box. Ants is... It was a big movie for me when I was 12 years old. I thought it was so clever. I had the score on CD. That's weird. Are you surprised? That's fucking weird.

Who did the score to Ants? It wasn't Henry Gregson Williams, I don't think. Oh, the score, of course, was done by Harry Gregson Williams and John Powell. Yeah, there we go. Number six is Jonathan Taylor Thomas's I'll Be Home for Christmas. Well, you shouldn't let me guess. I could have guessed that too.

That movie, you saw that opening. You're telling me this movie opening at three mil bombed? Because... You seen that one, Benny? His rival in that movie went to my college. And so Beal was at Tufts and she would come visit him on campus. And it was like a big thing. There he is.

That was like his one kind of transitional to grownup movie. I think so. Yeah, it's the only time they're trying to put him above the title. Basically retires from acting after that. Yeah. Well, he was above the title man of the house. He just had to split it. But you're splitting it with the grownup. Right. You know, when he got even with dad or who knows? No, title of man of the house. He just had to split it. You're splitting it with the grown up.

Right. You know, when he got even with dad or who knows? No, that was man of the house. What about Wild America? It was him and Chevy. Right. Wild America was him above the title with Sawa and Bearstow. Right.

This was this lone... He'll be home for Christmas. He's in a Santa suit. And he's... Yeah, I remember it sucking. It's just, yeah, I don't think there's any defenders of this film Oh my sister you can probably shake number seven of the box office is pleasant film Yeah, no ready the box office is some weird old movie. I've never heard of called the Wizard of Oz

Thinking wicked. Yeah number nine is Yeah, we did the the Triple Crown in this one episode. No, we didn't talk about Oz the great mouth Well, that's a quadruple crown. You can't mention him. Number nine of the box-office is Living Out Loud. The... Oh, Richard Le Gravener. Yes, Danny DeVito, Queen Latifah, Three-Hander.

Just a perfect, the obvious three amigos. Big three. DeVito, Hunter, Latifah. I honestly remember when it came out, but like that was a film right where I'm when I'm a kid I'm like, well, this is for grownups. I assume that's just about them having to like do their taxes or something like it's so beyond if I watched it today, what I think it's like a Mike Lee film. Would I be like, possibly it might be good.

Yeah. It was like a TIF movie, you know, number 10, a film I like practical magic, getting a legacy. Love. But as much as I like Practical Magic, them being like, we're doing a Practical Magic legacy. Well, I'm like, you guys are officially done making legacy sequels. Did you, and it's not a legacy sequel,

but it just dropped today. Did you guys see the red one trailer? I did, but then my eye went blind. One second in, I lost my sight. I was about to watch it, and then Joe Black showed up in my apartment. My ocular nerves detached, and then when it was over, they reattached,

and they were like, don't do that again. Joe Black grabbed my laptop out of my hands and carried it over a bridge. I agree. Before I could finish watching. It's one of the bleakest things I've ever seen. Really, for a film based on an idea by The Rock's ex-brother-in-law? It's even bleaker than expected, I will say.

What's it about? I just threw it on. It's basically a serious quote-unquote franchise version of the fucking Black Hawk Down Santa Claus South Park episode. I guess so, yeah. Santa Claus is kidnapped and they have to send in specialists. And Santa Claus is like a ripped- Supernatural bounty hunter. So J.K. Simmons. He's a ripped monster, J.K. Simmons.

Academy Award winner J.K. Simmons is Santa with muscles. He is, he's doing reps. I will say he's lifting. And I think like Dwayne Johnson is like- Dwayne Johnson's like his bodyguard, what the fuck? He's like an elf and Chris Evans is like a bounty hunter. Yeah. Yeah.

And then like they fight like Krampus. Loosie. No, they don't. Or they're quiet. And then they fight big snowmen. David, you might be surprised to hear they think it has huge franchise potential. It could branch out to all the other holidays. Why does every movie have to be about like Easter egg one?

Pumpkin one? Arbor one. Oh, there's a polar bear. Groundhog one? The polar bear is sassy. I just hate this movie where it's like, did you just say tree? You know Chris Evans being like, you know, hey my job is I drink coffee and I got a beard What do I do? Don't worry about it. And then it's like, sir, listen, you don't know this, but red one has been kidnapped. What are you talking? Santa Claus? And then like a polar bear shows up and he's like, what's going on? That seems to be the vibe twice a year. Chris Evans, you just hear whispers. That's like, he might be done with acting.

He's getting disillusioned. He wants to walk away from it all. And I'm like, here's my advice, buddy. Stop making red wine. Don't you have enough money for the love of God's don't make red wine. You're going to do fucking like ghosted gray man red wine. Like there's an uninterrupted five movie run. You're right. That is absolutely astonishing. It's crazy.

Yes. Yeah. That's like, I would quit the business too. But instead he seems to be addicted to shit. To eating shit on screen for no one's entertainment. For like 50 million dollars upfront. He makes knives out and everyone's like, man, this guy has the juice. What's he gonna do next? He's finally hung up the shield.

I'm gonna fart into the wind. Goodbye quality. And also like basically be complicit in like the destruction of the industry by taking these insane upfront residual buyouts. In a way they actually kind of had to happen. Like Netflix had to make these 250 million dollar movies that zero people remember. And then like it just kind of has reordered things back to yeah Netflix movies are DTV garbage or art house, you know, objects of interest. They are not making blockbusters. They tried, they failed.

No one's going. No one cares. The end. Here's his entire career post Knives Out, right? 2019, hangs up the shield, end game, goes out on top, Knives Out, people are like, he might have a good post Marvel career he does eight episodes of defending Jacob for Apple TV that we all remember people watched that but no one remembers he defended in 2021 he plays Chris Evans in the movie free guy oh I have to go

and don't look blind again he plays the role of Devin Peters that which I would argue is basically Chris Evans in the movie don't look up I don't the role of Devin Peters, which I would argue is basically Chris Evans in the movie Don't Look Up. I don't even remember that. He appears in the movie about where he's playing, whatever. But like both of those are him parodying his own thing. He does two cameos in 2021. 2022, Lightyear and Greyman. 2023, Ghosted and Pain Hustlers. Yeah, and Pain Hustlers is a Netflix movie, but in theory you're like, oh, okay, that's like a true story drama.

Is there something there? I mean, I haven't seen it. Nothing. I assume nothing. It's not good. And then 2024, Red One. I mean, Emily Blunt is good. That's the whole run.

But isn't he, didn't he finally take some- He's doing Celine Song's movie now. Okay, so that's like, all right. And he's doing the new Cohen movie. Yeah, Honey Don't. Yes. Which is a funny title.

The singular Cohen. And he did return to Scott Pilgrim. Cook. He co-starred with him in Scott Pilgrim Tech Song. We spent so much time together. So he did do that. He sort of, you know, right? The menchie move of like,

yeah, I'll be Lucas Lee. He did it for scale. Yep. And I'm sure he'll be filming the red two or three, you know, because the movie is going to do so well. And there's so many numbers. The trailer actually takes embarrassing pains to say it's going to be in theaters.

And it's like, who's going to say it? Yeah. And theaters are like, seriously, you don't have to. You know, we're just going to re-release Inside Out 2. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I know we've been complaining about not having enough product, but actually. We found this old print of a movie called Meet Joe Black. We think we're going to put that on.

He's making a movie with Romaine Gavras, who made that movie like Athena, that like that action movie. He's finally got to line up with Anya Taylor-Joy and Brendan Fraser. It's taking some risks. Where you're like, right, that's sort of interesting. Yeah, he's got like three real movies in a row lined up. But he's also got Red One. Well, Red One was also shot like three years ago.

What are you talking about? Red One had normal production, nothing weird happened. They had one script that they worked on. Everyone showed up on time. People only peed in toilets. No one was hired. People peed in toilets privately. Duran tired. People peed in toilets privately. Yeah. urine went to the one place it should go. That's what it says in the end credits. It's just

no animals were harmed and also also people peed normal. Every bottle empty. Yeah. You can check. We have the bottles. No weird smells. Richard, do you have any closing thoughts? I mean, I don't I wonder if anyone listening to this because I sometimes listen to your episodes where in this movie I haven't seen. Very kind of you. Too kind of. A lot I do. But I

It's the kind of thing of like would I recommend this to somebody? Yeah. The only thing I would say is I don't personally feel it's bad in exactly the way it got a reputation for being bad. I think, I mean, I like the movie, but I think that like, if you think it's just like 90s studio pablum, it's not. I think it's firmly not. And I know I basically made this point already, but I'd restate that all of the most insane things you've seen abstracted into means from this movie

remain insane in the context of the film. Fully. But there is some internal logic to the insanity. Which is not to say that they work. No. But when you see the clips, you're just like, how could any movie get to this point? Right. It's like that clip that went around of the editing from Bohemian Rhapsody in that one scene. And you're like, I mean, that movie's not good, but I think that in the case of

Meet Joe Black, the context does help a little bit because you're, for me anyway, I'm more on the movie's side. And so I'm like, oh, this is, I probably shouldn't have done this, but it doesn't detract from what's around it. And it's also just fascinating where you're like, okay, this being a failure and kind of being the first genuine bounce of Brecht's career, not kind of really being, yeah, the only like unqualified bounce of his career up until this point, you're like, so how does he pivot now? Does he go back to comedy and try to go back to his roots? This is what he tries to do and fails at? Or does he like stay in this adult prestige zone,

but figure out how to like get it a little more under control? Show a little more discipline. I wish he'd stay, I mean, knowing what we know about what was to come next. Like I wish he'd stayed because I think, you know, Minghella had what, two more movies in him at this point? Or three, I guess, if you can't, Ripley was, yeah. But like, you know, Minghella was near unbeknownst to us

nearing the end of his run. And I just think that big, high-grade, meticulous, epic filmmaking, we love, I mean, you know, I would have loved to see if Brest could have been one of those people, because the promise is there in this movie. Yeah. Yeah, and I do think in 1998, as much as heads rolled over this movie, the sense of a woman still looms so fucking large. Like, there's a certain amount of cach cache you still swing around from being like,

this is the guy who won Pacino his Oscar. And that movie is like, going to play on fucking cable TV forever. Yeah. Now it's... It's a relic. It's just like... It's a relic. Tom Sizemore is guarding it in a museum.

Well said. Linda Hunt's there too. Yeah. Good movie. Penelope and Miller, right? Yeah. Richard, anything to plug? Oh, you can read my work at VF.com. You can listen to my podcast, plural, Little Gold Men, which is like award season movies and then still watching right, I don't know when this is dropping,

but I think we're still covering week to week HBO's House of the Dragon, which is a spin-off prequel to a show called Game of Thrones. Never heard of it. This is a July episode, right? Yeah, July 7th. We're doing it Sully style. We'll still be in Westeros talking about... Child murder and cannibalism. Characters who all have this aversion of this. There's a Reyna, a Reyness, a Reyneira.

It's just like, come on, throw us a bone, please. I can't wait to never watch this. And part of the rule is that like we really are supposed to refer to the character names, not the actor names. Yeah. And I basically have like a lexicon in front. I just have this huge guide in front of me. Luckily they all have the same color hair.

So it's really easy to distinguish between Targaryens. This is why I think the show is successful, but where they were like, we're going to do a whole Targaryen show. I'm like, all the Targaryens look the same and have the same name. That's the whole deal with them. They should probably be off to the side. There's like 40 of them. I want to make it very clear. Unlike what some people think, I don't like not watch

Game of Thrones in some anti like I'm not like the other guys kind of thing. It's just lack of interest. But anytime anyone talks about it, I feel such a sense of relief of this being a pop culture blind spot for me, where I'm like, I'm not even saying I think I would hate it, but it just sounds like work. It's work. I enjoy House of the Dragon and the podcast is fun, but it's just funny to be like, I remember recording the first episode of the season and being like, holy shit, I'm never going to get these names. There are characters who are named, a twin brother is named Eric and Eric,

and you're supposed to keep them apart. Yeah. But then they fight. Then they fight. I mean, I read the book. I know they fight. Okay. That episode will live air right now. So anyway, that's the longest plug. No, yeah. Cool. Meet Joe Black. Yeah. If you see Joe Black, let us know. Obviously watch out for him. Yeah. still at large. Joe Black, call your local authorities. Yes, call 911 on Joe Black. And if your cum is full of skulls, immediately call a bromad or H.I.M.S. or whatever can probably sort that out for you. If you have cum skulls. A.G.1. Many of our sponsors could help you in this area.

Thank you all for listening. Please remember rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Ree Bardy for helping to produce the show, AJ McKeon for editing, also being our production coordinator, Joe Bowen, Pat Rollins for our artwork, J.J. Birch for our research, Lay Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. You can go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon blank check special features, where we do franchise commentaries.

We're finishing up the turtles. We're maybe just ending the turtles and moving on to the tabletop games. We are, of course. Yeah, we still got a couple turtles left. We got one turtle left. Actually, next is our Spreadmaster Delight episode. Oh, well. There you go. Look at that. Look at that is our spreadmaster delight episode. Oh well. There you go.

Look at that. Look at that. By popular demand. I guess? Sure. David is very patient with me in that episode. Am I? Are you being annoying?

You remain even keeled. I don't have no memory of that episode. Hurry up! Oh, you take forever being like, eh, my five. I'm sorry I don't have fucking 80 years locked and loaded. Yeah, maybe you should. That's the exercise. Maybe lock it up.

That's the exercise. Tune in next week for the end of her Martin Bress series. Of course, he goes out with a bang G-lead 20 years ago. G-lead. And as always, everything can be ivory.