Blank Check with Griffin & David - Midnight Run with Alan Sepinwall

Episode Date: June 23, 2024

In a first for Blank Check, Ben Hosley produces an entire episode while handcuffed and under threat of legal action. What else would you expect from a MIDNIGHT RUN episode? The great Alan Sepinwall returns to the pod to talk about Martin Brest’s fantastic cross-country buddy caper, a film that proved that DeNiro could do comedy and that Charles Grodin might be the funniest man alive. We’re talking about the unofficial Larry the Cable Guy sequel (?), the famous casting what-ifs (Cher!), and the magic that went into making this movie so breezy, effortless, and fun. We didn’t how good we had it back in 1988, did we?l Pre-order Alan’s book, “Saul Goodman V. Jimmy McGill: The Complete Critical Companion to Better Call Saul”  This episode is sponsored by: MUBI (mubi.com/blankcheck) Zocdoc (zocdoc.com/check)  Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

I can't keep you cuffed on a commercial flight and I gotta check my gun with my luggage, but if you fuck with me once I'm gonna break your neck. I can't fly. What? You heard me, I can't fly. No, no, no, no, no, no. You're gonna have to do better than that, pal. No, I don't have to do better than that because it's the truth.

I can't fly. I suffer from aviaphobia. What does that mean? It means I can't fly. I also suffer from acrophobia and claustrophobia. I'll tell you what, if you don't cooperate, you're gonna suffer from podcastophobia. Ha ha ha ha ha. That was a good selection.

Thank you, it was layered. Now, my number one line from Midnight Run is, these things go down. Of course. Because like that's- I wonder why that speaks to you. Right, it speaks to me so well, but also it is so funny.

Like even if you're not afraid of flying, his delivery of it is so magnificent. So much of it is delivery. And when I was at Sundance last, so 2020, I guess. Is that the last time you were on a plane? Correct. You don't think you're getting out of this episode without talking about that.

It is, I mean, look. Someone asked us. I think I would have taken a plane since if... Obviously, COVID is the main reason there was no flying for a while, obviously. Right. And then most film festivals shifted to at least hybrid virtual. But I had a kid, so it really just...

All of it. Yeah. It like... The opportunity hasn't presented itself. I know some people have young children, and they're like, we gotta go visit family in California. We're getting on a plane. I don't have family that I need to visit. Like, go visit family in California, we're getting on a plane. I don't have family that I need to visit.

Like, my family's in New York. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's... No family in the United Kingdom? I do. I mean, I have some lingering... Well, well, well. ...more distant relatives in the UK. I do have some family, but you know what I mean?

Where it's like, there are some people who are like, I gotta take my kids to see my, you know, the grandparents. All the in-laws. And they live on a plane ride away. Right, right. And so it just hasn't happened. This came up in Blank Doe recently. And there are texts, right, about the Doe Boys. And you said that January 2020 was the last plane you had been on.

And you said, I genuinely don't know when I'll go on a plane again. By the way, David has already started biting his nails at this conversation topic. I stopped doing recently, so I'll go on a plane again. By the way, David has already started biting his nails at this conversation. I stopped doing recently, so I need to not... At the topic. But to finish my sentence... These things go down.

That's the thing. So I met lunch with Brigham Taylor, shout out Brigham, who works at Disney. Legendary producer. Right, fan of the show, who's a great guy. And I tell him, like, I think I was probably, like, maybe gonna fly the next day or whatever. I'm like, I'm kinda anxious about flying. Like, you know, I always am, and like, eh, you know,

I'm always in my head. And like, people, you know, Kobe Bryant had just died, obviously in a helicopter accident, which is different, but still, like, you know, it was kinda in the air, and everyone was kinda rattled by that, because that was really, you know, shocking. You're more afraid of helicopters than planes, right? Well, I'm... I've never been in a helicopter.

I'm certainly not... They're scarier than planes. Thank you. I just want to make sure there's a reasonable sense of sanity. There's a chain of logic. I would never get in a helicopter. Neither would I. I mean, I've had, like, rich sort of people who have been in helicopters kind of tell me, like, don't get in those things. Like, they don't make a lot of sense. There's that service blade. Oh, don't let's not.

Which I forget who owns it. I think it's like Uber. Yeah, Blade is Uber for helicopters. Right. Yeah. It's in Uncut Gems. I always think of Uncut Gems. Anyway. We're not exaggerating. It is truly like disgusting, rich New Yorker Uber for helicopters. Yeah. How do I bypass?

I want to catch a blade to write, you know, Foxwoods or whatever the fuck it is. I see them land. Yeah, you see if you're near the water, you can see the helipads. Like I think it's like on 33rd Street in Manhattan. It is insane to watch them land. It's really scary. The thing with helicopters is they both make sense in a way where you're like, okay, well, it just goes down like this.

Like, and then then you're also just like, but how does that work? No, the helicopter literally parallel parks. Yeah. It's so scary. This is also a movie where Robert De Niro shoots a helicopter blade with one bullet and the thing explodes. That's true. With a handgun.

With a handgun. He just kind of squints and gets it and you're like it does crash into a cliff Right, that's why he's sent it spinning out of control, right? Right, but it's also basically four feet away from that cliff at that moment. It barely has to spin. That's true. Yeah, that's true Um, anyway, I say this to Brigham and he just looks at me He's like these things go down man. They go down. He just kept saying it me, which is very funny. This is one of those movies where you're in the club Yeah, exactly someone else you're like I think you know and you can quote the lines back to them and the lines aren't like obvious

Well the way that's worded that could only be from a movie quoting in conversation things. You're not in a fucking regal ad, right? No. The quotes from this movie can be repurposed in normal conversation because so much of it is just the way in which they're set. Right. I was clocking while watching this. There's so many dialogue exchanges that I find so incredibly funny that are about like

a nine part back and forth that on paper paper, there is no obvious punchline. And it's just about the rhythm. And a lot of it is sort of like the anti-punchline that happens, where I was like, is this movie quietly, this is a take, is this movie quietly a big inspiration on Wes Anderson? Hmm, interesting, is it? Do we know?

Is shit like the Redwood conversation. Yeah. I'm like, that feels like a Wes Anderson joke. I will say my wife's favorite bit from the movie is one of those. In the chorizo and eggs scene, before the waitress talks about chorizo and eggs... Coffee, tea. Yes, exactly. You know, how much is the coffee? It's 53 cents. Yeah.

How much is tea? 53 cents. And then Grodin just does the perfect pause. Perfect pause. And just goesoten just does the perfect pause. Perfect pause. And just goes, I'll have tea. Well, he says, she says coffee. He looks down and it's like he's individually counting the coins on the counter, checking money he has. Yes.

Then he looks back up, he asks for tea. It's the same number. He looks back down for three times as long. Yeah. Like he's checking to see if the amount of money he has has changed. That feels like a thing in a Wes Anderson trailer. Now we he's that I googled couldn't find any, you know, moment of him ever saying like, you know, a movie absolutely

fucked Midnight Run PTA cites this movie all the time obviously made a sort of secret sequel to this movie. There are a lot of guys of this generation who are like that's quietly one of the best constructed American films of the 80s, if not ever. Right. So I wouldn't be surprised, and Wes Anderson always fucking cites heat.

That heat is one of his biggest expressions. Yes, well, no, that way he talks about that. Absolutely, yay. I just wouldn't. He loves Michael Mann. Yes. And Michael Mann's like, very methodical approach to filmmaking. I wouldn't be surprised

if this movie is in his soup a little, but there's nothing to back that up. I don't. But I could, like the Tracy Walter scene, you know, when Mosley finds him, that feels very much like a Wes Anderson kind of moment, now that you say that. Yes.

Yeah, there are a lot of them. And like, I read the quotes page, and I'm like, God, all of this is so funny. But I could see how if you hadn't watched the movie, the quotes page wouldn't make you laugh. Yeah. No, it almost sounds hacky.

Like the exchange we just read, you know, the fist and, you know, fistophobia, you're like, okay. I mean, right. We obviously performed it perfectly. No one has ever sounded more like Robert De Niro, a guy that no one knows how to impersonate. And I'm the first one to crack it Nobody nobody nobody knows Nobody knows

To be clear I'm not good at it I just know that you have to make it a question if you're and you have to repeat it multiple times Right the thing he does there and De Niro does it again on like I got two words for you Shut the fuck up and a couple other moments, where it's like, it feels like the stress of being in a quippy comedy is starting to get to him. Yes. Maybe the actor to some degree,

but certainly the character, where it's like, he's set a precedent that he has funny one-liners, but he thinks he's only gonna be with this guy for 12 hours, and now he's just sort of starting to surrender. So there's something in the way that DeNiro performs it, where like, fistophobia, if someone sold that with all their might, you'd be like, is that really an interesting joke?

But the way he plays it, he's like, I don't know, fucking fistophobia. I don't have anything better for you. He's tired. Everyone in this movie is tired. And there's the moment where Groden calls it out back to him, he's like, I know, I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna throw me down on whatever the thing is. That is so funny. He's basically called out like,

you have a mad-lip structure. Couple of ways you threaten me. Exactly. I thought that's what you were gonna do, by the way, for the intro, is shut the fuck up. Yeah. I mean, it's my favorite line in the movie. Here come two words for you, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's it's my favorite line in the movie. Here come two words for you Shut the fuck up. No Jack. You're a grown man. You have control over your own podcasts. I Mean every every line is good within its context. Yep

This is a movie we want to motion silence and rage. Yeah, it's huge for me. All right. Yeah, sorry gone No, this is a movie we want to do since the beginning. Breast, one of these guys, as we've been saying, fits as cleanly into the sort of thesis of this podcast as anyone. And this is one of my favorite movies, a movie I've watched many times. I watch at least once a year and is in that rare canon for me of movies that get better every single time I watch them. Every time I watch it, I go like, I'm noticing things I haven't noticed before. I'm able to appreciate the craft of the construction even more.

And in telling people that we were doing this series, because we have a couple short series in a row, we've been reaching out to potential guests, we'll send them a list of like 15 upcoming episodes and it's across three or four different directors. And the amount of people who've gone like, well obviously Midnight Run. When I go like, Midnight Run is claimed. And they go, well if anything happens, if anything shifts.

Nothing's gonna happen. And I'm just like, there has never been a harder lock on an episode in our history. And then I tell them who the guest is and every one of them's gone, Okay, that makes sense, right? I'm not gonna fight that I'm not jealous This is blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David It's a podcast about filmography as directors who have massive success

Early on in their career and given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want This is certainly his first blank check Yes, but it's a blank check to do the type of movie he's proven. He can do well with more creative freedom And it's right. It's sort of a casting blank check. Yes sort of a control blank Yeah, the next three are more crazy passion projects. This is him taking something That's an obvious sort of like commercial layup, right and being like I'm going to treat this like it is my magnum opus I'm gonna make this thing fucking diamond cut we're talking about the films of Martin Brest Podver Lee Hills cast is the name of the series and

today we're talking about what I consider to be his masterpiece Midnight Run it's the apex I would agree certainly I don't really even know if there's, well, I guess Beverly Hills Cop's very special, but no, this is a better film. Yeah. I watched that again last night. No, this is miles and miles better,

as great as Beverly Hills Cop is. I love it, but Beverly Hills Cop is a little bit of a lightning in a bottle movie. Yeah, it's almost a happy accident that it's so good. Yeah. Like, the talent involved makes sense that it's good and fun, but then you're like, huh, this is actually like a leaving a little better

than it should be. Midnight Run is beyond that. And it's all intentional. Yeah. You're like, this is just a perfectly made film. And this is the best version of this kind of story, the odd couple on a road trip. Yeah, the road trip movie, the one crazy night movie.

I know it's more of a- It is basically the platonic ideal of an action comedy, I think, in terms of like, the thing I always point to in this movie, that it gets better than I think anything else I can cite, is it stays funny from beginning to end, you care about the characters, and like, the center of the action movie plot is not nonsense.

It is intricately designed, but it is understandable, it is compelling. There are clear tension and stakes in every scene. And they genuinely get themselves into a thing where you're like, I don't know how they solve this movie. And it's incredible that the denouement of this film is like a non-action sequence that is so exquisitely constructed to be a pressure cooker. An hour after we've seen fucking helicopters exploding and cars exploding, now suddenly a couple guys talking in an airport is like the highest stakes things you could possibly imagine.

Right. And it's also, it's able to make all of those things coexist. Yes. Because Beverly Hills Cop was reverse engineered. I'm sure you guys have talked about it. Sylvester Stallone vehicle, they bring Eddie in. Eddie riffs a lot. It's really funny. The parts of the movie that are left over

from the Sylvester Stallone version stick out like a sore thumb. And everything here, like the comedy, the action, the menace, when it wants to be serious, it is serious in a way that seems like it fits along with everything else. And all the pieces make the other pieces better. When we go to Jack's house, that makes everything that follows funnier because we've understood how low he has sunken.

So many movies like this, Rush Hour film, I do think is quite good, the first one. Like when you cut to Tom Wilkinson, great actor that he was, and you're setting up the fucking serious part of the movie, everyone's, like, checking out a little bit. You're like, when are we cutting back to Jackie and Chris? This movie, when you cut to Dennis Farina, you're like, hell yeah, I'm in business. I mean, yeah, that's true. People forget.

People forget that Tom Wilkinson is third build in Rush Hour. And I remember when my mom interviewed him for, you know, some tonier and nicer project around that time, he was like, that was the movie that changed my life. Yes. Not getting an Oscar nomination for In the Bedroom, which happened like three years later. Obviously that could see better parts or whatever.

And not the Full Monty, which was a big breakup. Best picture not. It was being in a box office smash like Rush Hour. Anyway, not the Full Monty. That might be a five-timer club story now. You've told that a number of times. All right, fine, I've told it so many times. No, no, in a good office smash like Rush Hour. Anyway, not that one. That might be a five-timer club story now. You've told that a number of times. All right, fine. I've told it so many times.

No, no, in a good way. I've at least told it once before. I definitely, yeah. This is a movie where the shoe leather is all entertaining. The stakes are never compromised. There is a consistent sense of danger in this movie, where also sometimes you get to the part where the funny guy has to save the day. It's one of the reasons Beverly Hills Cop works is that Eddie plays that shit well.

But some other guys it's like, you're not serious. You can't coexist in this movie with a serious actor playing a serious villain. Or it's like when the movie starts to get caught up in the plot, you're like, can we get back to the jokes? This was fun half an hour ago, and now the movie is caught up in its own bullshit This is like like I I want you back my pick for the greatest pop song of all time My personal favorite is a song movie. I have a good song Great movie movie. I think it's better than most movies as a movie, even though it's a song

But that is a song where I'm like, the magic of that song is that the chorus and the verses are equally good. There's no part of I Want You Back where you're like, can we get through this to get to the better part? Where you're like, every section of it is good in its own way, and this is similarly the same thing.

Alan Sepp, I'm gonna... Oh, hi guys. American Scholar on Midnight Run. I'm just gonna say I am owed this appearance. Yeah, it's carved in stone. The check was there? Threatening to do him forever. We just messaged you and we went, it's happening.

Yeah. No, you never need to have me on the podcast again after this, because this is really all I wanted. If you want to have me back, I love being here. Especially the first two times you kind of took... Yeah, you took a couple strays. You took what? Invisible Man and what?

You took a couple tough... Memoirs of Invisible Man. Top of the Lake China girl. And memoirs of Invisible Man. Puss. Puss. Ugh. Ugh.

Don't remind me. We shouldn't even think about him during discussion of the fun film Midnight Run. I don't want a second of Puss Thought. Do you remember when that episode came out? I know, and some people said he was good. That we were too hard on Puss. We complained about that before multiple times as well.

Not that I'm saying, like, oh, you can have this, but what now would be the next movie where you're like, well, that's the Alan movie where you're like, well, that's the Allen movie. This is my number one favorite. Right, so now that it's off the table. I think almost everything, like you have this great collection of guests,

all of whom I think are mostly better qualified than me because I'm, okay. There are three movies that if you were to do them, I would again break into the studio and insist it was me. This is one of the three or three edition? Three in addition to this. And you may notice a commonality between the other three or letterbox four Which are these are not necessarily my letterbox four These are the ones where I feel like I could do better than anybody else

Okay, the Martian if you ever do Ridley part two sure Apollo 13 if you ever do Howard Write stuff if you ever do Kaufman. So after this is just space. Yes at NASA. It's it's my bag It's not what about rocket man because my mom has claimed rocket man No, no, but if you do October sky, which was based on a book called rocket man, then yes Yes, mom has claimed rocket man. You didn't I haven't listened to it yet. This is the on the diehard 2 Yes, correct. I haven't known my pockets are kind of yeah I mean I would have done diehard but you know Kevin Smith is slightly you know better qualified to do that then yeah some is there any chance we ever do Dexter Fletcher on the I didn't know No, it's a good point. Yeah

Care about rocket man. She might it was fine. I mean, I don't she probably enjoyed herself Did very enjoyable did she wasn't like if you ever do that? I? Mean you might do quarrel, and that's not that many movies. I could do gravity sure okay, so basically anytime we We screw on an astronaut helmet. We should at least throw it by you. Yes. I mean, if you want to consider me for other things, that's great. I, again, love the show, but I don't feel like I'm essential versus other people.

I don't remember when it came up in our friendship. Maybe it was just from you posting about the movie a lot, and I post about it a fair amount as well. And then you and I have had a number of conversations about it, both online and offline. And then was it last fall you did a number of conversations about it both online and offline and then was it last fall You did a screening of this film at IFC with Matt Zoller sites, or was it longer? It was sometime last year Yes, yes, which was my first time getting to see the movie in a theater

Which was incredible. Yes, and so then we talked about it even more then but I feel like for the last couple of years Whenever you and I talk about this movie, it's like, God, just fucking do breast. Like, it was an incentive to further push it up the chain, although I have just been waiting for you to come on and do this episode. I'm so excited. We're gonna be here for seven hours.

Yes. No. Yep. No. Eight. No, no. We are not. We can talk about films and love them without having to break running time records. This is a marker I am throwing down for this podcast.

Length does not equal appreciation. No, but this is a four hour episode. No it isn't. Although this movie is not long, long. It's basically two hours long, but it's roomy. Two, six. I mean, yeah. An argument could be made it's slightly too long.

Like I don't know that you need the car chase in the desert. It's wonderful. Sure. In and of itself. But then Elfman couldn't have his eighth sax solo without it. But it would carry on. I think this is one of Elfman's best scores.

I do too, but that's a controversial statement. Some people really hate this car. I know. No, it's incredible. It's incredible work. And do you guys know the lyrical version of the end credits? Alan, I listen to it all the time. As do I. It is on my workout mix.

Try to believe. Try to believe. Try to believe. But like, I'm just, my point on The Running Time is more just like, yes, like, there's a leaner version of this movie. It's probably still great. Yeah.

And a movie like this, you feel like, should be lean and fun, right? Classic, cable classic, right? But, and so you feel the breast roominess, which will only grow. But this is where he's found the perfect midpoint. Exactly. He's found the room for the character's career. Yes.

It's a hangout movie. Right, yes. You wanna spend as much time as possible with Jack and the Duke. Where a sense of woman is like, let's hang out with these two guys. And I'm like, Al Pacino screaming and a non-entity? Like, that's who we're hanging out with? Like, that's it?

Are we gonna hang out with anyone else? And he's like, no. I mean, if it was Pacino and Philip Seymour Hoffman, I would want to spend all day with them. We've recorded that episode. We certainly talk about that concept. We make that case. Yes.

How can you not make that case? But yeah, Midnight Run is, it's just all perfect here. And then he never quite has it again. But is Beverly Hills Cop 90 some odd minutes? Beverly Hills Cop is 105 minutes. So even that's like a smidge roomie. A smidge roomie. An hour 45.

This film has 20 minutes on that. And that 20 minutes does feel like it is character detail primarily. Like it is, whether or not it's earned, it all benefits the integrity of the movie. It's not wasted time. But then it's like, Scent of One then adds 30 it's really like sense of one then add 30 more minutes and me drop back then add 30 more minutes She's and then G Lee he's like I pulled myself back to two hours and you're like two hours is long

Yeah, cuz going in style is 90 basically right on the dot, right? going in style is I mean in my memory quite short 97. Okay, the thing with going in style is, I mean in my memory quite short, 97. Okay. But the thing with going in style is that also feels roomy. Yeah. Which I like. He's got very deliberate pacing.

Right, exactly. But this movie does move very fast. Well, it moves across the country. It moves across the country. Sometimes it's twice. And you're cross cutting off in between like five different sort of threads. Yes. There's the thing that JJ pulled up in the dossier, though I think we should read the

full quote at length at some point, but it was the turnkey on this movie. At length. At length. Slow it down. I mean, I'll open the dossier now, but yes. That it took him years to put together, but this movie is his riff on It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. Sure.

Which he cites as being his transformative movie experience as a child. And he was not consciously trying to emulate it. And in design, he was citing other movies. But then he was like, oh, I'm realizing that crystallized in my mind as a young child is like this is the coolest a movie could be. Just like fun characters, fun tension, constant moving energy action. And it does have that thing where like towards the end of the movie, fun, tension, constant moving, energy, action. And, uh, and it does have that thing where like towards the end of the movie, you're like,

there are like eight or nine different threads. You know, you're following Marvin, you're following, uh, uh, Serano's Henchmen. You're following Serano and Jimmy. You're following, um, Moscon and Jerry. Yeah. On top of obviously the Duke and Walsh. And Mosley. And Mosley. And Moscon and Jerry. Yeah. On top of, obviously, the Duke and Walsh. And Mosley.

And Mosley. And Mosley, yes. Yes. Obviously, the Duke and Walsh is... primary. And the other guys are in and out in terms of importance. But they're never dropped. And they're set up at the beginning. No, you need that. And they stay until the end. Because you need every time one of the men intersects,

another one can bash in, like, just as quickly. And it's got the mad Man bad mad world thing where you're like, it's basically always cycling through them There's no one where it's like you've been out of the movie for 45 minutes two questions, please One have either of you seen it's a mad mad mad mad world. Oh, I grew up like my family loved that I think it has six times and Griffin has just blown my mind I saw the quote today and it blew my mind. Have you seen it? Yeah, I was obsessed with it as a child. I have not seen it in a long time I don't think I've ever seen the foot that is a movie that is deeply indulgent

I have a lot of three hours long right as long as the shortest cut right three hours long was the studio hack job Right it was meant to be like three and a half Yes, it was meant to be for with an intermission. 202 was the original cut. Okay. One of the running bits in the movie is Sid Caesar is locked in a hardware store and he's doing everything he possibly can to get out and it's just Sid Caesar,

one of the great physical comedians in TV history, just getting beat up over and over again, trying different ways to escape. And by the end of it, he just looks like an utter wreck. That's Jack Walsh. Yeah. Jesus I mean and that movie for people who don't know was a comedy made by Stanley Kramer, right? Who's not primarily a comedy director?

No, like issue pictures and it was like an attempt to sort of make the original action comedy But also make like the biggest budget comedy imaginable that was... All the comic stars you could think of. Put every funny person in a movie and the setup... Have you ever seen this movie, Ben? I have. Right. Loosely remade as Rat Race. But Jimmy Durante dies, says there's a briefcase with a ton of money, buried under the Big W,

and the ten people who pull over to the side of the road and see him die all go off in their cars to try to get to the money first. And it's just like, one car is these two, one car is these two, like, and you're all these narratives, but it's it is in a way it feels like six different movies. I mean, the point is, when you're cutting from like Ethel Merman to Sid Caesar, they're in different threads. Yes, Phil, Phil Silvers winds up in the river with the kid, which then the Simpsons did and the Home of the Vigilante, I think.

And there's just the central thing of where everyone's after the same money. It kind of feels like a sketch movie. Totally. Yeah, 100%. It was like, it's a storage device for comedic ideas, right? Like, the premise is so big, and it's just,

we've got to get from here to here. And in that destination In that journey to the destination anything can happen. We can run into the three stooges for four seconds Whereas this is like it's very focused This is a weirdly plotty movie. Mm-hmm, but it is focused. Yes folk. Of course, it's not 16 different storylines like that, that are in parallel, like a rat race. No, and every piece of this movie moves a story forward. But it doesn't have Smash Mouth in it. That's a problem. It doesn't have Josh Lobbitt turning into Hitler, which would be one good part of rat race.

I think the squirrel thing is funny. You should have bought a squirrel thing as funny. There's some funny stuff in that. Like, that's a good gag. I think the Klaus Barbie sequence is the one like perfectly designed. That's like a clever sequence where you're almost like, this feels like it should almost be in another movie, right? Like, because that's what Rat Race kind of is. It's just like, well, what about this?

What about this? What about that? You know, like they don't have anything to do with each other really. But that sequence also has the sort of curb your enthusiasm thing where you don't quite put together what they're building the Barbie Museum to be clear They go to a they think they're going to love it's as part of a family. I think they're going to the Barbie Museum it's actually class Barbie the German Nazi

Monster their car breaks down And so they steal a Volkswagen from the Barbie Museum and then love its burns his tongue on the car Barbie Museum and then Lovitz burns his tongue on the car cigarette lighter. Yes, and his upper lip somehow gets smeared in... Right. Yeah, yeah. Look, look. You can imagine where this all goes. It's much like the Father Ted plot line where there is a weird square of dirt on the window that no one has bothered to clean and then Father Ted is in front of the square of dirt and starts ranting at someone and he looks like Hitler. Anyway. 10 out of ten. Alan, you saw this movie in theaters? That was my other question. When did you first see Midnight Run, Alan?

I'm not 100% positive, because I have a very strong memory of seeing Die Hard in theaters that week, because I went with some teen Hebrew summer camp travel thing, and we saw it. Yeah, exactly. Everybody went nuts with that. I must have seen it. I must've seen it. I must've seen it with my dad because it's the kind of movie my dad loved

and it was all rated and I was 14 at the time. So, you know, he would have had to take me. My strong memory of it though is just seeing it on HBO over and over and over again. The first strong memory I have of seeing in a theater is years later when they did a screening at the 92nd street Y where Groin appeared and was gonna take questions after. And I realized part of the way through the movie

that he was sitting right in front of me. And then he gets up afterwards and it turns out he does not wanna talk about the movie. He is there to discuss his charitable work on behalf of nonviolent criminal offenders, which is a very noble cause. but this is 100% him. He's a pretty serious dude. The last 25 years of his life were spent

primarily trying to get people off of death row. And that's great. And I get if you want to take advantage of the captive audience to some degree, but he kept steering almost every question back to that. Either that or he would start telling stories about feuds he had with different people in show business where he was always the wronged party.

Of course. Yes. I mean... I would prefer he was like trying to get maybe Clifford back off of... a naughty row. I don't know. I was trying to do a Clifford joke. These things go down.

You guys have left out what Griffin, what you said before, about how you notice new things every time. When I did it with my family a couple times ago, I'm always laughing so hard at these things go down that I had never before heard in the middle of the rant, he then says, it's too big, it can't go up. Oh, no, that's a huge part of it. Like that he says these go down and it can't go up. Oh, no, that's a huge part of it. Like that he says

they go down and it can't go up like one after the other is incredible. It's very funny. Which is, I mean, it's not my actual like source of my aviophobia or whatever is like, I don't understand. I don't understand how planes so big can go in sky. Yeah. But I do think that is like, everybody has that thought at one point or another when they're in a plane where they're like, this thing's made of metal, like how is this working again? Like I know physics or whatever, but like what the hell is going on here?

We'll get to it in a second, but I also didn't realize that that is truly the like root genesis of this movie, is that. In what way? The concept of this movie stems out of what if a bounty hunter was afraid of planes and you took that easy solve out of the situation. Oh, right, right, right, George Gallo has told this story.

That was his seat. Yep, he met a cop who told him like he had to transport a prisoner, the prisoner wouldn't fly, he got stuck in the car. Right, and Gallo was on a plane and had a panic attack and was like, if you build a road movie where there's a ticking clock and High stakes, but the plane is out of the question that feels like a funny starting point for a movie, right? I do think to what you just said

This feels like a movie that not one person would identify as a masterpiece or a classic their first time watching it No, I remember seeing a classic their first time watching it. No. I remember seeing this for the first time. There were people in my life who I would hear my friend, Derek's mother would always say, you haven't seen Midnight Run, don't you love movies? You haven't seen Midnight Run? Fair question.

We were growing up when I was like a kid, right? I remember this being part of like the third installment of I Love the 80s when they started like circling back and redoing every year. and they were like, okay What's like the eighth most important movie of every given year and they did a Midnight Run Segment and like a lot of the talking heads were talking about this is like one of the best comedies of the 80s And I'm like this is not talked about by people In the same breath as the major comedies of the 80s that I think of it's interesting that these guys are

Canonizing this to this degree and then I saw it on cable at some point a couple years later And I was like yeah, that's good That's rock solid and I got to the last scene and I got choked up and I was like, huh That's surprising that it hit me that hard emotionally because I didn't feel like I was that locked in until that point although I have no gripes with this film and then I rewatched it and I was just like, you know what? This thing's kind of undeniable and then I just keep fucking rewatching it and it keeps getting better for me It is one of those movies that did all right in theaters

but became such a cable TV mainstay and all right in theaters, but became such a cable TV mainstay, and I think like elevated its status because it is the type of film where the more you have to watch it, the more you love it. Right. Um. Saw this thing on a friggin' porch. Hell yeah.

First time, baby. It's a great porch movie. Yeah. I think as a critic or whatever, you put this kind of movie, if you're in a bucket of like, yeah, that's great entertainment. Right. It's not high art.

Like, so I wouldn't treat it like high art. And Roger Ebert had one of the most positive reviews. That's an A out of 10. Yeah, exactly. Of anyone at the time, which was three and a half stars, but even he was like, this is a very formulaic movie, but they do the formula very well. Hats off to like impeccable craft.

He wasn't like the film that everyone will be studying for the next 40 years. Right, and then I think as you, I think in general in criticism, there's been a movement back towards more sort of like a optimist kind of thing, as much as this happened in other mediums, media. Yes.

Of like, well, you know, we should actually have more appreciation for like formula done perfectly or right. Like, you know, like mainstream stuff. Like stagecoach or whatever. That transcends. And then, right, and then you talk to people like Paul Thomas Anderson, who you're like, well, this is an artiste.

And he's like, yeah, but what I admire most is like craft at the highest level, something like Midnight Run. He's like, this is a perfect invisible craft movie. Right, and you're like, well, you know, like, and I do feel like my feelings on that have shifted as I've matured. I'm so mature.

And I'm mature. You're, oh, deeply mature. Yeah. Damon Naflek always cited, it's the reason Naflek ends up in G. Lee. Like there's a lot of guys of that exact generation who are very high level in Hollywood, who are like, that's the

fucking like, the Rosetta Stone. Well, I will tell you, I will tell you. Much use turned off the shelf. I will tell you a story that is also a shameless plug, but a good story and relevant to this. Okay. So I have a new book. It's coming out next year. It's about Better Call Saul.

It'll be out in February. And I've been doing interviews with people on zoom and and I've got a Midnight Run poster in my... Great poster. Yes, exactly. No, it's the one of him dragging the Duke along. It's the other one. And it's over my shoulder on the wall behind me when I Zoom. And I'm talking to Peter Gould about Better Call Saul

and what a hard time they had figuring out what that show was gonna be. And finally he says, I'm looking at your poster and it reminds me, like one day I just had this thought in my head, what if it's Bob Odenkirk and Jonathan Banks handcuffed to each other, wandering through the desert, and that to me unlocked,

okay, it's that relationship, we will do that on the other show. Dead on. Yes. Cause when they first announced that show, it was we're gonna do a half hour sitcom. Wouldn't it be funny to transpose this character to a straight-up law office sitcom? Yeah, and also bounty-hunting, TV-friendly, like there's a new case of the week. And Breaking Bad was always, much like Sopranos and Mad Men, one of those dramas that is quietly

funnier than most comedies on TV. But Better Call Saul has this like incredibly bizarre tone. This weird balancing act that I think it pulls off perfectly that is, it does feel very indebted to Midnight Run. Yep, and they finally, like in the next to last season, they did the episode where they're stuck in the desert together. And he was like, we thought we would do that midway

through season one and it just took them forever to get to it. I do wanna call out, I don't know if you guys have noticed Ben is wearing something different today. He's wearing like a blue cardigan. Well he's wearing a blue cardigan, he's dressed pretty conservatively on the grand scale of things,

but Ben I've heard a certain item. What are you talking about? What did you do that? I just noticed that. Ben has handcuffed himself to himself. Oh these. Yes, those. He is engineering the episode Ben has handcuffed himself to himself. Oh these yes He is engineering the episode while truly handcuffed. It's it's just a misunderstanding

With you yeah Well, where did you get those? the Friendlies Corporation And I They're just not they're not too pleased with me right now. But I don't want to dwell on it. You told them that the money from the t-shirt sales was going to charity, right? You were trying to...

I did not. Yeah. Truly, it's gonna get worked out. It's not a big deal. But do you guys happen to have a handcuff key on you? Here's my question. No is the answer. Can you a handcuff key on you? Here's my question. No is the answer. Can you not handcuff someone on a plane? Like the way he's like, anyway, unfortunately I cannot handcuff you, right?

Maybe if he was an actual FBI agent. Yeah, right, exactly. The other thing Gallo said is he is like, I had written a couple of cop movies at that time. Cop movies were really big at the time. No one really was writing stuff about bounty hunters and bounty hunters are fascinating because they act like cops,

but technically everything they're doing is kind of illegal. Right, especially if they're using any kind of force or coercion. And they're kind of rude. And they'll just intrude on your home. Well, it's also just a bizarre like element of our legal system of like,

you can pay someone to go find someone. They can't do anything illegal, but also like their job is to basically bring them back. And if they succeed. And are they nice? Yeah, they're really nice. And they're in normal offices that aren't scary. If they succeed, then it's sort of like, all is forgiven. Whatever it took, ends justify the means.

But if you fuck up along the way, it's like, wait a second, what have you done across the last three days? All right, well, hold on. This is me going wildly out of order, but it's an important question that I've had often over the years, which is, how much trouble is Jack in at the end of the movie by letting the Duke go?

Because he's gotten Moseley to agree to drop all the charges for all the illegal shit he has done throughout the movie, in part because he's going to take the Duke go because he's gotten Mosley to agree to drop all the charges for all the illegal shit he has done throughout the movie in part because he's going to take the Duke into local court in LA and instead he lets him go. He's in no trouble right? Well with Joey Pence. Joey Pence can be mad at him but I don't think he's in any legal trouble. Joey Pence is also fucking financially ruined now. Yes, no he's ruined Joey Pence but like isn't Mosley, I mean, I know Mosley has another case against Serrano, but part of the case is the kidnapping. Like that's

one of the bigger charges and the witness for the kidnapping is no longer there. Right. But that's not Jack's job. Like to get it. I mean, one assumes Mosley can subpoena him and be like, you must appear in court. Like, as a witness. I'm just saying that was, they made a deal and Jack broke the terms of the deal. That's true, but it was a deal in, a verbal deal. But it's also the element of this movie that I think is so perfectly thought out, where it's like, the Duke has undeniably committed crimes

Yes. that must be prosecuted because of the way our law is structured. But everyone kind of agrees they like what he did. Yep. Everyone hates Serrano. They have a mutual enemy. And they're like, contempt for the Duke is like,

you fucking idiot, you thought you could get away with this. Not, we think that what you did is wrong. And they all kind of know that apprehending him is gonna lead to his death and is not gonna hurt Serrano at all. Like they're sort of working against their own better judgment when any of them are trying to apprehend him.

But it's also part of like the thing that makes it so effective in the relationship with Jack is he's this guy, he, you know, not that Grodin was a small guy, but he does not seem physically imposing. He's got this very sort of meek demeanor. He speaks softly. He's a nerd. He's an accountant. You do not expect him to be any kind of threat whatsoever. And he uses that. Like he just sizes up Jack instantly and realizes, Oh,

this guy's not very bright. I can just push his buttons on everything. And so, like, he should be the beta male, and he is the alpha in every single interaction they have, even when Jack, like, has his gun out and is screaming at him. And watching Jack get flustered is the most entertaining thing in the world. It does not get old. I also just want what I have always called

a midnight run tan, which is just how dirty they are at the end of the movie. That they're basically, they look like they've been on the beach in a weird way. Their hair's messed up. They're just caked in mud. It's so, so hot. Every stage of De Niro in this movie, I think is about as good as any man has ever looked in a movie.

It is one of the movies that makes me the most envious where I'm like, if I could pick, that's what I would look like. Everything about the fucking jacket and the hair. I bought a jacket like that almost entirely out of my love of this movie, and I wore it in my 20s, and I did not look like Jack Walsh. He just fucking wears the hell out of it. I agree. He looks fantastic. But also you're like, this guy's a mess. I still have the cuffs on.

Yeah, you think he's gonna fucking bail on the big? I can't take them off! Have you met my man before? What do you want me to do David? I showed up and I couldn't miss this episode. All right. He's a professional David yeah this episode brought to you by Mubi Once again those curated streaming service guys who are dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. The curated streaming service. Me turning to the camera, but I've got like a remote in my hand. They're dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe.

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with Franz Bajkowski. Apparently also, Koriata's film Monster will be streaming on movie us from June 7th. That's a which is a which one I think one the queer palm last year at the Can't film festival River of grass Kelly Rikerts first film which can oftentimes be tough to see stuff to watch too. Sorry Kelly It's good as hell though. Yeah, no, I like that movie. Yeah I know yeah monsters cool. I don't know if I didn't, yeah, yeah, Monster's Cool, I don't know. It's movie. This is the thing you just scroll through

and what embarrassment of riches you have here. Exactly. And for a limited time, you can try Movie Free for 30 days at movie.com slash blank check. That's mubi.com slash blank check for a month of great cinema for free. I've heard of the Sitting Ass Cow, but do you know they have Andrea Arnold's cow?

Do they? Yeah, they do. That's actually cool. That's a cool choice, yeah. Excited to see her bird. When's she gonna get through the rest of the barnyard? Sufjan style, didn't she make a promise? Chicken.

She'd work through the whole farm. I'd like to see horse. You sure would. With the runaway success of Beverly Hills Cop, the most profitable film of 1984 at the box office domestically. For 20 years, the most successful art-rated comedy ever. Or art-rated movie, period.

Right, before Passion or Dick Rice. Matrix Relay, I think, finally did. Or Matrix Relay, yeah, so it was for... 19 years, whatever, yes. So, Breast lines up another project, a remake of the Claude ZD French cop comedy My New Partner, written by W.D. Richter, the great W.D. Richter who wrote, you know, in Baku Banzai.

Yes. And other things. Claude ZD, like the preeminent French farce filmmaker who for a while there, Hollywood was remaking every single thing he put out. But were they bringing Claude in? No. No. No. No, say what or not. And he was the original Asterix.

No, right, no, he was the director of the first Asterix. Right, but he did the original Three Men and a Baby? Am I right about that? Probably, yeah. A lot of his movies were remade, yeah. So, this screenplay for this remake is written with Nicholson and in mine, but then Danny DeVito wants to do it and then it gets set up at Fox with Dustin Hoffman. True lies. I'm sorry, is the one, yes.

Yeah, La Total. Yeah. Dustin Hoffman is going to be the experienced cop. Sean Penn is going to be the young cop. Okay. Okay. Some new writers come in, Tootsie writer Murray Schigsel, Larry Gross, who did 48 Hours. Apparently, everyone's getting on famously, but then Leonard Goldberg, who fired Brest from War Games, which we talked about last time, is put in charge of Fox, and Brest is like, fuck you, I quit. Right. I'm not doing this again. I just raised my middle finger." -"Yes."

So then Dustin Hoffman are like, well, then what could I do with you? I want to do a movie with you. And so they find it, and Michael Ovitz, at that point, a super agent, finds them a little movie called Rain Man. Have you heard of this? I have heard of this.

And that was written, supposedly, originally was going to be Dustin Hoffman as Rain Man, which the role he plays, and Jack Nicholson as the brother. Yeah. Makes more sense age-wise. Yeah. Of course, instead, Tom Cruise comes aboard. Yes.

A great performance. He's just like, he's just oddly young for the movie. Yeah, but he sells it so hard you don't question him. Don't think about it. That's the performance in that movie that should have won the Oscar. I agree so hard. A hundred percent so

But this is the whole thing with Dustin Hoffman movies they all would just he just like insist on rewrites He would take all kinds of creative control He's I'm not speaking out of school when I say a gigantic asshole like one of the most notorious assholes in Hollywood history Yeah, and also just like an incredibly meticulous, neurotic, overly obsessive. Finicky, right. So, I mean, we've talked about it in our Ishtar app and others, but like he only made like four movies in the 80s. Breast calls...

Hoffman. No, I'm saying Breast calls Hoffman a doctor of microsurgery because... Well said. Anyway, so Breast is like, this is never gonna happen. I'm quitting. Quits that too. I'm just saying, Hoffman, a guy who basically began and ended the decade, was bookmarking it with Oscars,

was like as respected as anyone could be, and Hollywood was just like not fucking worth it. Like he was so difficult that even though he was a huge star and was at his artistic peak, it was just like, fucking life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman. You could see he and Brest getting along very, very well. They make a lot of sense as a pairing, but also it sounds like Brest at a certain point was like,

you know what, this is never gonna get done. As much as the idea of us working together is great, we're just gonna keep heightening each other's obsessiveness. OK. So let's put breasts aside. George Gallo sold his first screenplay at the age of 20. Worked as a truck driver throughout his 20s, though, because he could never get anything produced. 1986, he finally gets a screenplay made.

Brian De Palma's film, Wise Guys, a big bomb. Huge flop. One of De Palma's least remembered movies in a weird way. That's the Kirk Douglas Lancaster one? No. No. No, this is the Joe Piscopo, Danny DeVito one, which my best friend Mike and I, there's one line we would quote all the time,

which is they steal the credit card of a more important mobster named Acovano. And so then they're using it to finance their trip down to Atlantic City and everywhere they go, they hand the credit card and someone says, "'Thank you, Mr. Acovano. And they turn to each other and go, no, no, no, no, no. Thank you, Mr. Acavano. And that sounds sort of funny. It's the only funny thing in the movie. So I've, you've got to save for guys. Right. Yeah. Okay. It's tough guys. The

name of the other. Yes. Okay. They have very similar and Douglas and Lancaster Rob a train. And that was right. Kirk Douglas is Brenda Palmer movies. Of course, the fury. Yes. Okay, they have very similar titans. And Douglas and Lancaster rob a train in that one. Yes. Right. Kirk Douglas's Brenda Palmer movie is, of course, The Fury. Yes. So, okay, so- That bombs. Yes, that bombs, but Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer are intrigued. He starts writing a screenplay for them called Bulletproof Hearts that eventually becomes

bad boys many years later. Yes. And then he starts to conceive of Midnight Run, which is essentially the thing you're saying. The bounty hunter who is afraid to fly was his original idea. Right. He started with the idea of Walsh

being the one who's afraid to fly. Yes. And building the whole movie around that. It was based on, I guess, a moment where he stopped an airplane because he was so scared of it taking off, which is one of those things that I might be afraid of flying, but I am more afraid of the social embarrassment of being like,

I have to get off the plane, like, which I know happens. I know that that is a thing that could happen. But like, Jesus. But it is a good aha moment to like personally experience getting kicked off of a plane like that and then go, this is an interesting starting point for a movie. If I'm not allowed on a plane and I need to get to X, what now happens along the way? Right. And then you heighten that to, yeah, bounty hunter.

And as you say, you already mentioned this, but basically he was like, bounty hunters are interesting. They don't have to report to anyone. They are kind of illegal. It's not essentially kidnapping, but that's basically what they're doing. And they haven't been discussed enough in movies, like as cop movies are everywhere. He's working on the Paramount lot. He throws this idea at Marty Brest. First... He hasn't written it.

It's just an idea he's been percolating. Yeah. First throw some other idea at him. No, I've heard him say he had part of it written. He ran into Brest in the parking lot outside Don Simpson's office. And Marty's like, well, what are you working on? And he says, well, you know, I've got this little idea, and I don't want to waste your time with it now.

And Brest is like, no, no, tell me. And he starts telling him, and he says, have you written any video? I got pages in my trunk. Give them to me. Oh, wow. OK, but there wasn't a finished draft. I don't think it was finished, no. First, I think he mentions Bulletproof Hearts. Brest's like, eh, it's sort of interesting, but no.

Then he starts talking about apparently some sort of like gold robbery movie. They start talking about robbery movies, like The Hot rock or like friends of Eddie Coyle or whatever It's best at this point after Beverly Hills cop It's like you have quantified yourself as someone who's at the top level of doing this type of thing, right? It feels like he was being Strategic enough about his career that he's like if I pitch another star-driven Action comedy they're gonna give me a lot of freedom. I'll have an easy green light thing enough about his career that he's like if I pitch another star-driven action

comedy they're gonna give me a lot of freedom I'll have an easy green light That's the thing I'm the most right. Let me find the right piece of material to start on. Right and so the thing Gala finally says to him is like it's this movie you know bounty hunter white collar guy blah blah is that like I want it to be in a tight frame, right, a few days, because there's a ticking clock, and I sort of want it to be, like, the last detail. Like, kind of like a quasi-road trip movie with, like, an end in sight, right?

Like, you know, the kind of, like, we have to get here by here. It's one of the best things even beyond that about this film and its construction is that, like like early on, Mardukas calls out, you realize if I get sent to jail, I'll be dead within 24 hours. Like everyone knows that kind of part and parcel with delivering him. Right.

Is he's then at the mercy of the mob basically. Right. And he's done. He's technically. Right. This movie is a funerary March. Meet some bounty hunters. He says some guys are kind of like gentlemen, others are like cowboys.

So he kind of settles somewhere in the middle there for Jack, starts writing. And I think John Ashton's character ends up being the real cowboy type. Yeah, why am I forgetting his name now? Marvin Dorfler. Marvin Dorfler. Marvin, Marvin, look out!

Marvin! Does Marvin have CTE by the end of the movie, by the way? He gets some hard hits. There's some hard hits in this movie, that's true. Such a classic. Great punch, what a guy. Yeah, like a single punch and then your lights are out. Yeah, and with real kind of like cartoonish,

like old Western bar fight punches. And Jack never once like, you know, has to shake out his fist or anything afterwards. No, no damage to him. No, but the arc of the punches, they were like full Popeye swings with like the most robust sort of impact sound effects possible. So Gallo credits Martin Brest for everything says like, he really cracked the whip for me.

He turned me into a good writer. rigorous as hell. Right. Exactly. He would always say like, try to twist this one more time. Try to surprise me one more time, right? Like, you know, you know, don't just settle for, essentially, a rote version of this road trippy kind of movie. Which is, it is the magic of this film,

that every scene just plays out a little differently than you thought it would. Whether it's the plotzagging or the character handles a traditional plot scene in a way you wouldn't expect in terms of performance. Now, De Niro's first to board. De Niro, in his career, which is long and interesting, he has two Academy Awards, I don't know if you guys know that,

at this point. You guys know that? He got two within five years. He sure did. And two for characters very much like Jack Walsh, you know, very funny and loose. Right. He got two also just like undeniable Oscars. Like it was like, yeah, of course he's winning for Raging Bull, of course he's winning for Godfather. Anyway, after all that, you know, he does Once Upon a Time in America and The King of Comedy,

both of which are like, you know, well regarded now, but are kind of these like troubled things at the time I feel like the king of comedy does okay, right or did it not was a huge flop It was a huge flop Scorsese talks about that was a gigantic obviously I know it was like I freaked people out Yeah, no critics called the worst film of the year, and they were like Scorsese's lost it rules Right once a time in America was this very long drawn-out production that then cut to pieces It's so he's coming off of like two kind of follies now Once Upon a Time in America was this very long, drawn-out production that then gets... It gets cut to pieces. So he's coming off of like two kind of follies. Now, he is in The Mission in 1986,

which is a tremendously boring and misguided movie in a lot of ways, but it's gorgeous. It wins the Palme d'Or, gets Oscar noms. It's got the most beautiful score. But the most fascinating thing is, then he swings into this period in the 80s where he's like cameo guy. Uh, yeah. Interspersed with The Mission, it's a lot of supporting roles. The fascinating thing is then he swings into this period in the 80s where he's like cameo guy.

Yep. Interspersed with the mission, it's a lot of supporting role. It's Brazil, Angel Heart, and the Untouchables are the ones that we're thinking of especially. Right, where he's sort of like the looming figure in question. Right. He's the character the movie keeps talking about,

but he's not on screen much. He's good in all of those movies. I would go as far as say he's great in all three. Right, but it is an interesting moment for him, and clearly he's decided, yes, I enjoy doing these bigger than life cameo parts. Cool, that's fine. I like doing that, but maybe it would be nice to do a funny movie that people aren't completely bummed out watching.

That having been said, he's in this weird position where it's like, look, he's widely considered perhaps the greatest screen actor of his generation Yeah, I mean I wasn't alive in the 80s, but I think his rep was probably pretty strong pretty fucking strong Yeah, he has two Oscars under his belt that as you said no one can deny right But you're like what more does this guy have to prove right to sort of like hit that big that young that quickly Then it's like so what are you doing now? Are you chasing your own shadow? And increasingly, I think there was this reputation of like, he's actually not bankable. He's a beloved actor, he's widely respected,

but he's like not a box office star. And some of his movies have gotten complicated. I think him swinging into those supporting sort of cameo-esque parts was also him taking all pressure off himself as a leading man in Terms of his value as a star and just being like I'm additive to these movies Yeah, I mean, I was gonna hold it against me I would guess like Godfather 2 and Untouchables were by far his most successful movies of the box office

And he's not the lead in either one. No, that's a good point. No has to be I mean Taxi Driver did pretty well and The other ones didn't really yeah, I mean even time I mean obviously looking at the box. I'm sure these old movies can be hard, but yeah It was like a good hit for well for especially for a movie. That's incredibly disturbing and violent correct You know one of your classic porno theater date movies But but he's already been in this headspace of like maybe I need to do something lighter Maybe I need to shake it up This is a big thesis of mine, Alan, that we talked about before your screening,

where I think this is the first Robert De Niro movie star movie. I'm not just talking about the way in which it is received. I think because at this point in time, his reputation was also so chameleonic, De Niro goes so deep. He'll do anything to transform himself for a role. He's so malleable. This is the first time he's kind of shedding layers

and figuring out what his default on-screen persona is. Now later, 15, 20 years later, when there's the whole sort of like De Niro comedy wave, that is not riffing off of this. That is like parodying his tough guy dramatic work from earlier. That is, this is funny because it's Robert De Niro doing it. Right, but I also think this movie paves the way for like what becomes his default screen persona

in things like Heat. Yeah. Right, like his Heat character has more in common with Jack Walsh than he does like 70s Pacino. Right. Where he's so fucking intense. Yes. He starts to figure out like, what am I like just kind of existing on screen?

But I think he knew he needed to like expand. He wanted to do big very badly. He met with Penny Marshall a bunch. There were like a bunch of comedies like that. Or like Lighter Fair where he was was like can I play a nice guy? Can I be in a movie that isn't about me being dangerous or intense or scary or whatever it is right even king of comedy? He shows that he's funny, but in a way that makes everyone upset and He was like I think he knew he had to figure out who like

Robert De Niro above the title was in that kind of way right who like Robert De Niro above the title was in that kind of way. Right. Obviously the big question is who do you do? Brest is like, De Niro, sure, I'm interested. Yeah, great. Like, but then who do you want? They say he doesn't seem to totally fit the role

as written and he's like, here's my take. If Robert De Niro wants to do the movie. I'll figure out. You rewrite the role. Right, like it's, yeah, exactly. That's exactly it., yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. Charles Gordon.

Obviously, we needed people to read for it because it was a question of microchemistry is how Brecht put it. And beyond that, they're immediately terrified of a co-star being intimidated by De Niro. You're like, even if you get the funniest guy in the world, is he going to feel insignificant holding his acting chops against De Niro? And if you try to get another actor of his stature, they're gonna be funny. Right, right, right, right. He reads a scene from Heaven Can Wait.

He watches the movie. He does, but he says... Oh, no, you're right, sorry. I remember the scene in Heaven Can Wait, which Charles Gordon is very funny in, hot take. So funny. Where he just turned to another character and had a deadpan reaction that just knocked me off my chair. So, Brass is like, why is this not a guy

that everyone's trying to get? Grodin had a career that on a smaller scale was very similar to like Alan Arkin, where there was a period where they were a leading man. Like Heartbreak Kid for Grodin. You know, I kid for grodin, you know, I'm great, you know Groden's I'm catch 22 together right grodin stuff did not hit as hard as Arkans early stuff did and then after a couple years It's like grodin is a super reliable like comedy version of what De Niro was doing in the 80s He will pop up as the best friend or the CIA agent is Ishtar, or whatever it is, you know?

But it's like that was his zone, was this guy had a leading man run, the movies are well respected, but they weren't successful. I guess the audience doesn't like him as a leading man. Have him show up for a couple scenes and be funny next to Steve Martin, or Warren Beatty, or all these guys. And also he's just a pain in the ass.

Like it's, is it worth working with this guy if he's not gonna make you enough money. He's a curmudgeon Yeah, he's not a pain in the ass in the way that Hoffman is sure right? And and also his comedy persona now is curmudgeon He's one of these guys who's more famous for being a talk show guest than he is for anything else And his bid on talk shows is being like I don don't wanna be here, what are we talking about? Which is pretty like niche. So Brest says the best thing about De Niro, about Brooke Grodin is that he's not afraid of De Niro.

They would keep doing screen tests with De Niro and every actor was so intimidated by him. So Grodin obviously is not, G Groton reads the script as like, it was immediately clear if I was off with this part, it would be the best one I'd ever played in the movies. Like Heartbreak Kid, he considers maybe his best work at that point, obviously lead role for him. But this was more dimensional, more unexpected,

more human than any other part I'd done. So he does like an audition where they read all their scenes together. It's not just like a scene. They do the whole movie, at least their parts, right? Which is, you know, 75% of the movie. Two weeks later, he's flown to say it's between Robin Williams and you. Which is kind of an intimidating thing to say to him.

Like, Good Morning Vietnam is the year before, right? Or, well, maybe it hasn't come out. It came out the year before, he wouldn't have seen it yet. So like Moscow and the Hudson we're talking about. This is the exact point where Williams is trying to make the opposite transition of De Niro of can I add a little more weight to my comedy? Right.

Yeah. So, you know, he does another version of this three hour audition, similar to the first. Okay. Yeah. Paramount doesn't like it. They're like, this isn't starry enough, this isn't funny enough.

Casey Silver, the V for Your production, is basically like, we need someone else. Like, this isn't a movie star. So they do another series of what Brest calls sham auditions. Judge Reinhold, Sharon Stone apparently came in. Well, Sharon Stone was not at the level to do that. This is the thing. So the studio really wanted Robin Williams or Cher. Cher was coming off a number of hits.

Yeah, the Cher thing is not in the dossier. So I wonder how made up that is. No, I mean. That's a famous thing. It's been discussed so many times, right? Right, right Obviously share was some studio notion of like she was coming off a bunch of hits and they thought like oh Does this movie have more juice if there's also also sexual chemistry between them, right? Exactly The way Martin Brest frames it is that like he and De Niro had made a pact that they wanted Groden.

They knew the studios did not want to sign off on Groden. Yes. They kept making Groden do all these screen tests where he'd do the entire movie. Yes. And then they were sort of setting other people up as fall guys. Judge Reinhold is the one who's like that fucker Marty Brest made me do an audition with Robert De Niro who did not look up from the script one time. Right.

Like I could tell it was basically, like, them being like, oh, we tried this guy, didn't work. Oh, we tried this guy, didn't work. And I had just, like, scored really hard in his last movie. And even Sharon Stone is then being like, look, we're being flexible. We're considering every single option. And look, it's not as good.

Do you notice none of these are working? Is this when Bruce Willis came in? I don't know. I don't know about that one. No, because it's, I found this, Marilyn Beck in a column from September of 1987. Bruce Willis hopes in? I don't know. I don't know about that one. No, because it's, I found this, Marilyn Beck in a column from September of 1987, Bruce Willis hopes to make a film during his coming moonlighting hiatus, but thus far he has nothing set. Willis' agent, Arnold Rifkin, confirmed discussions for his client to star in Martin Brest's Midnight

Run. Wow. But Rifkin added that, quote, no offer was ever made. And I'm told an offer is now out to Charles Grodin. We'll have to see what happens. That sounds like, right, Rifkin, like, trying no offer was ever made and I'm told an offer is now out to Charles Groton. We'll have to see what happens. That sounds like, right, Rifkin trying to pump up his client. Because Universal wouldn't pull the trigger on Groton,

it was like, well, first Paramount and then Universal. Yeah, when does it? Paramount said a hard no. Then it goes from turnaround to Paramount to Universal and they're like, we want Groton and Universal's like, let's open this up to more people So then there was an additional way. That's when stone and Ryan Holden all those guys came in So it went through two different studios of both of them refusing grodin, but universal was less absolute about it They were like let's keep seeing other people

So it's a fucking good script with the director of the hottest comedy in years and the most respected screen actor and it's this jump ball where every fucking agent must be like, maybe I'm the guy who can send his client in there and have them kill a midnight run and cinch the part. Because even though it was sort of an open secret across town, they want Grodin but it's probably not going to happen. There's this famous story I love about Grodin that he was an acting class with Gene Wilder, with Uda Hagen, one of like the legends of acting. The other anecdote I love from this is that he one day told Gene Wilder like they were talking about their careers and their ambitions and he's like, buddy, you got to lower your expectations. And he was like, what are you talking about their careers and their ambitions. And he's like, buddy, you gotta lower your expectations.

And he was like, what are you talking about? He's like, you're not gonna be a movie star. Look at your face. Like, listen to your voice. You're not like the kinda guy with just sort of like, I have the right features and you don't. Which, yeah, it's like an asshole-ish move, but also he's like, right, like Gene Wilder kinda cites that as like incentivizing him

to prove him wrong. But the other thing talking about Charles Groban being difficult was in that class, he'd like sit back with like the newspaper and read it openly while other people were like tearing their heart out and stuff. And at some point, Uta Hagen pointed to him and she was like, look, look at what he's doing. doing This is compelling and then she made the entire acting class come around him and she's like this is an interesting technique

And he was like I wasn't doing anything I was genuinely just bored in the class and then she was like we're all compelled to see what his next move is and He yawned and she was like yes And it's so much of his acting process there Right is like the thing that it sounds like he kept doing in all these screen tests as other people were trying to like top De Niro yes, and he would take 30 seconds on a response. It's just funny He just threw everything underhand and he just seemed Completely uninterested in trying to impress anybody as much as he very much wanted this part. He wasn't like groveling for it

Film for them BAM began production in October 1987. It comes out in July 1988, but it was a long 17-week shoot uh-huh tons of locations Famously the cliff scene is shot in New Zealand. Yes, because the water was warmer Yes, so they had to fucking fly to New Zealand But obviously also in New York LA Chicago Arizona Yes, Sedona all these like genuinely ten locations. It's mostly in order crazy run Yeah An assistant director of much of the camera crew quit five weeks into production I think probably because breast is like a really meticulous pain in the ass. Like that seems to be the vibe he kind of cops to

it. Yeah also coming off of Beverly Hills cop where like Eddie Murphy threw the script out and just did different shit every take and it ended up working. Right. He every day is like sort of he's sort of become the Kubrick of comedy where he's like we're gonna do everything a hundred times because I'm waiting for you to do something that surprises me. And Yaffa Koto spoke very openly about how miserable he was making this movie. It really helps his performance, where his character is constantly miserable.

And I don't think it was intentional. I don't think Brest was trying to like... No, he doesn't... Brest doesn't seem like an asshole. He does seem like just a pain in the ass. Right. And he was like, I worked so hard to try to get what I thought breast Wanted and breast would go like okay now try doing the serious version of it He's like I thought you wanted the funny version and then I do it seriously pushed me further in that direction But then Yaffa Cota when he saw the movie was like I could not believe how good it was right He was right about everything and like these pieces where I was like every day on set. This is incompatible

How is what I am doing now going to cut together with what I did an hour ago, let alone what I shot two weeks ago? And he was like, he knew that he needed every single option and Brest, one of the reasons this movie went very over budget was he like at a time where it costs money to print film, where people would sit there with their script supervisors

and when a take looked good They'd mark print it and you only print the ones that feel like it's a great take to beginning to end and he was like print Fucking everything universe was like, what are you talking about? He's like I got Robert De Niro in a fucking movie I think I'm not gonna print footage of Robert De Niro on camera But also he's like sometimes you watch a take that otherwise isn't usable, but there is a twitch on a face in response to a line that doesn't happen on the other takes, and that thing is like fucking gold.

And he even keeps the camera running often, like, after the take is over, and some of that shit is some of the best stuff in the movie. Jack, like, taking the badge out of his pocket and turning around and flashing it, that's just De Niro fucking around after the take. Uh, like, taking the badge out of his pocket and turning around and flashing it, that's just De Niro fucking around after the take. Mosley saying, I'm gonna have a heart attack here,

that's Yafet Koto just losing his mind. Actually getting mad. Yafet Koto was straight up sick the entire time of filming too. He claims he had a fever every day he was filming. The way Brest puts it is the movie was written to death and they would shoot like a master of master, you know, of, like, let's do the script exactly as we have it,

and then improvise in every direction imaginable. Um, the sex with the chicken run in the boxcar, they apparently were just like, we don't really have a great way out of this scene or whatever, and Groden, like, came up with that after a while. It's, he says, you need to do whatever you can to make Bobby laugh. Because we have to convince people that this is the moment when the relationship turns.

And Brest was like, that's so funny, but we can't use that. And then was like, well, maybe I can use that. And that becomes his whole philosophy on the movie is anytime there's something where I go, that's so funny, but obviously we can't use it, it means it has to be in the film. Make this the movie where all that kind of stuff does make the cut.

The way DeNiro puts it is it's like swimming the English Channel. When you're in the middle of it, you know, you're like, what the hell is going on essentially, right? Like, and then at the end you're like, no, I guess that was how you had to do it. I mean, I don't know how else to put it. De Niro apparently would call Marty the principal. Like, oh, the principal's coming, you're in trouble.

Everyone on set called him that. De Niro came up with it. Sure, sure, the principal's coming, you're in trouble. Everyone on set called it that. Dineer came up with it. Sure, sure, sure. And as you say... Yeah, when he comes up from behind the camera, everyone's like, oh, God, what am I gonna fucking get yelled about?

Right, exactly. Now, apparently they did not have a finished ending while they're in production. And Brest was constantly hounding Gallo, being like, what's the fucking ending? Like, have you figured this out? And Gallo says, finally, I realized I'd been in my room for four days in a hotel in Sedona. My room looked like the son of Sam, paper all over the place. I was chain smoking.

I said, I need some air. I took my golf clubs. You can imagine where this is going. I went to get some air just to move my body around. I knock on John Ashton's door. That's the guy who plays Dorfler. And, you know, he's like, get your clubs. So, we go, the bus of the crew is leaving,

followed by Marty, the principal, in his car, Mr. Breast. He sees us teeing off on the first hole. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He swung around in that car and started screaming at me like I'm a kid. George Gallo, soul screen credit. You're on the fucking golf course We have no ending and you're on the golf course. Maybe he is a little bit of an asshole He was going berserk then he heads off in his car and the whole crew starts cheering and whistling like a football game I'll never forget that soul screen credit. He knew how to get me and I did finish the round laser great story

Yes. Oh, it's so good and the ending in this movie couldn't be better. It's so perfect and simple. It's so perfect and simple, you're kind of like, you didn't have this ending? Like, what a great ending. It feels like a classic. The movie was written backwards from the ending. And my wife was like, I mean, he's going to let him go, right?

And I'm like, of course he's going to let him go. Like, when she was watching it with me. Right. But the execution of it. Yes. And the details in it seem so obviously seeded throughout. You know, the runner about the watch, and he's already given away the Duke's watch after they steal the truck.

The money, the sort of notion of paying him off. That's another thing that I didn't notice until like five or six viewings into it. Maybe not even until we saw it together, which is in the bus station, when he's frisking the Duke to see if he has any money to help pay for the bus ticket. He's like, do you have any money? And the Duke says, yeah, I've got money. And he looks so pleased with himself.

He keeps seeing it throughout the film. And it's one of the great lines where he said, I know you said you had money, but you didn't say you had money. And it's just the emphasis. He says the same thing two times. De Niro says so many lines in this movie twice, and it's different the second time. Yeah, I mean, De Niro says so many lines in this movie twice and it's different the second time.

Yeah, I mean, De Niro at this point, a bit famous for saying the same line multiple times. You talking to me? Enthusiasms. Enthusiasms. There's a couple words he mispronounces in this movie. Oh, it's when they do the litmus configuration. Configuration. Yes, he stumbles over configuration.

And it's such a nice moment because you're like, De Niro is impressed that Groton is so good at this when he's been the one bullshitting his way through environments the whole time that he's actually caught a little off guard and he stumbles. I'm just thinking about just Farina. How he's always like to Philip Baker Hall like, sit down, relax, have a glass of milk. Like he just keeps saying that to him. A glass of milk and a sandwich. Have a cream soda, some fucking thing.

Every Farina line in this movie has one great specific. And none of them are obscure, but like if they don't do what I want, I'm gonna hit them all with a fucking blowtorch. I'm gonna stab you in the neck with a fucking pencil. The heightening. Right have a glass of milk like everything There's one specific that comes in of like there there is this man has an attention to detail. Yeah David do you have your 1987 ballot? Oh, yeah, sure My debate has already always been how many acting nominations do I give this movie? 87 is a really hot year my friend That is a tough year to squeeze people in on.

Do you have this in any categories? 88, I mean, right? 88 ceremony. Yeah, not 87, sorry. No, but the movie comes out in 88. No, it's an 88 movie. You're right, I'm sorry. I have this nominated for, yeah, a bunch of awards.

I mean, in my ballot. Yeah. What do you mean? Where do you have it? Well, picture. Director. Screenplay? Actor. Screenplay. Who do you mean? Where do you have it? Well, picture. Director. Screenplay. Actor. Screenplay. Who do you nominate for actor?

So, right here I have De Niro in lead and Groton in supporting, which is cheating, but not entirely, because Groton is not in the first chunk of the movie. But it's not that long. No, but I want to put them both here in my ballot. And here's the reason why I would put them both in lead actor. So you can get one of the many great supporting performances.

Farina, right? Farina, but also tempted to put Kodo in. Kodo is the one where I'd be kind of tempted. I want to do four nominations in two categories. Two double-nom categories. You should. I mean, I think you should do that. Right? And I'm gonna call up the Academy for Inbring. Two categories, two double nom categories. You should, I mean, I think you should do that. Right?

And I'm gonna call up the Academy for Inbring. It's a really good five lead. Who's your five lead, your five supporting? DeNiro, Midnight Run, Hoskins, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Bruce Willis in a film called Die Hard, it's like an art film from Bulgaria, you wouldn't have heard of it. Forrest Whitaker in Bird, incredible performance, and Jeremy Irons in Dead Ringers. God damn it. That's, that's okay. Really good movies.

Okay, and you put Gordon in supporting. Along with Alan Rickman in Die Hard, Michael Keaton in Beetlejuice, Kevin Klein in A Fish Called Wanda, and then Dean Stockwell in Married to the Mob, which is a true, like, I just love that performance. That's maybe the quote unquote weakest, although I think you got like an Oscar nom for it, right? Like it's not like it was like, yeah, it's a good performance. So also we've covered almost all those movies now, which is why.

Maybe it's time to do Charles Crichton and knock a fish called Wanda off. Cronenberg. Oh, I would want to be on the Wanda episode if he ever do Crichton, which will obviously happen. Here he goes. He's picking these. See, he's not retired. He doesn't need to be in space. I will still never remember when it was like Hitchcock in March Madness

one year and I just sort of text you like well if Hitchcock wins I'll do rear window right and you're like this was your bit for a while. You know when I realized okay I'm punching above my weight. If you twist my arm I would do Jurassic Park it's the kind of thing you would text us. We should do Alfred Hitchcock. Let's do him right now. Pause this podcast. Do you remember how much hand wringing there was to figure out how to split him up from March Madness? We briefly had this thought of like, could we make like four Hitchcock movements?

Right? Like, could we do kind of like four different decades or whatever? Yeah, that was fun to think about. All right, so just not to go into too much of a tangent, because it is related. You mentioned Hoskins before. I assume you guys have seen the screen test for Eddie Valiant, where it's Joey Pants. Yes. Okay, so A, I'm trying to imagine what Roger Rabbit would have been like

with Joey Pants, and then B, Joey Pants allegedly was one of the many people who was trying to get in to play the Duke. Desperately. How do you think he would have been in both of those roles? He's a really good actor. And he's got the energy required for both. Him as Eddie Valient, that's an ornery movie. Like, he would be loud and ornery.

I think his energy is too similar to Roger Rabbit. I think that's the problem. Like, Hoskins is deadpan in that movie. Like, you would just, I mean, obviously, Hoskins is just wonderful to Roger Rabbit. I think that's the problem. Like, Hoskins is deadpan in that movie. Like, you would just, I mean, obviously, Hoskins is just wonderful in the film. I'm not saying it would be a bad film, but it's like, there's no way to improve upon that. And I think the same thing with Midnight Run.

No one could have played the Duke better, but also no one could have played Marsh Skone better. Like, it's, um... But yes, no, Breast really wanted him to play one of Serrano's goons. So he had the in with Breast. And then he was like, I want to play the Duke. And it was like, I really want Groden, but you can read for this one.

This might. I mean, imagine how the studio reacts to, uh, now, okay, I'll drive, I'll drive Groden, Joe Pantaleone. Just like one of the best pants performances. It is. It's just perfect application. He looks like he belongs in that office. Yes. He does.

He looks like he lives in that office. I mean, full time. He has the desperation, the manic desperation of this guy down so hard. Anytime he's negotiating the numbers with people and he slips up And he says a little more than he should It's it's fun I mean there's that bit early on when in his first scene when Jack is complaining that he's trying to like reduce the rate

And he turns to Jack Kehoe Jerry and he's like does when have I does that phone ever? Finish a sentence This every every time He's doing like Nicholas Fane stuff I mean this up. Well you need to understand But even the thing when De Niro comes in he asked for his money And then he goes like Jack we agreed to a loan or whatever and he's like Jack pushes on Back for a millisecond and he immediately folds.

No, you're right, 1200. Right. Yeah, you're right, it was 1200. God, even down to how he's balding, but has still kind of like some long hair in there. Right, yeah. It's perfect. I've had many conversations with Joey Pants over the years about his baldness, his hair wigs,

like how when he's playing a part where it's supposed to be a wig versus when he's playing a part where it's supposed to be his realness, his hair wigs. Like how, when he's playing a part where it's supposed to be a wig versus when he's playing a part where it's supposed to be his real hair. Like he is like a wig master at this point. The Ralphie wig obviously is not revealed to be a wig until, spoiler for the Sopranos, Ralphie doesn't make it. Wait, what? Alan's never watched.

But was he aware from the beginning, like this is a hair piece? I think he was. I mean, I don't remember if we've discussed that, because the last interview I did with him for Surprises was before Ralphie dies. He also said recently that he based it off of Christopher Nolan, that he had just done Memento and he was like, this is the hair piece. It is that swoopy hair of Nolan's,

so it's further back on the head than Chris's. But yeah, yeah. And he based on Ridley Scott's Gladiator as well. The characters constantly. He's got the Dan Flash's shirts, right? Like the very loud expression patterned shirt. Wait, that is such a good call now. And then like the combination of like that

with the ties and the suspenders but no jackets. The Argyle socks. He keeps the money in the Argyle socks. There's this part of him that looks like a shitty birthday party magician. Yeah. And he's trying to intimidate everyone, but he just can't fully commit to it. And you started with this guy being in the hole of he's overextended himself. I mean, this movie, it's such an efficient setup, right?

But you open just like fucking De Niro turning down a hallway looking like a hundred million dollars Oh, this is gonna be movie where De Niro has a gun and he's cool, right where he's like a cool action star He's a badass. He don't fuck with him. He's trying to pick this lock. He drops the fucking paperclip bullet goes right above his head It's a thing. I love of this movie setting up basically with like from minute one. This guy's on borrowed time, right? It's not really talked about that much. He says it once But like I almost died tonight, right? Like this is my breaking point I do only reason I'm still alive is because I'm clumsy because I dropped a thing. It's also like just Exem emblematic of like his quote-unquote professionalism, which is like he's not unprofessional

No, but half the shit that he does right is by mistake. Yes, or weird luck Right ever and then even when he makes him get some stuff out of this situation successfully It's like and then you got a fucking deal with Marvin like Marvin's always there meeting you giving you fucking chin music That's the first like two three minutes of this movie that whole dynamic is set up This is what this guy's daily life is like Marvin's always on his tail. He goes to the precinct. They all know him They all have in jokes with him this weird sense of like why isn't this guy a cop? They all have in jokes with them this weird sense of like why isn't this guy a cop? Right he has an odd relationship with the police because it feels like he should just be one of them right and especially with Robert De Niro who I guess like his biggest police roles are to come, but you're like that's a guy you'd buy sure

Yeah in this type of role and then he goes over to fucking pan leone's office Palliano's office yeah fucking Panleon's office, Palliano's office, Panetone's office. And, yeah, that is where the movie starts to truly flower. And it's just, I mean, it's such a triumph of casting, because it's like every single, it's like the 27 Yankees of character actors are playing, like, you see Joey Pant, you instantly know who this guy is. You see Yafet Kato, you instantly know who that guy is.

Farina, everybody. Dropping Tracy Walter at the diner late in the movie for 10 seconds really feels like them just showing off. Look, at that point, they're just like, I don't know. We had to, right? Yep. But yes, it's 80s character director Avengers.

Yes. Jack Kehoe's so good. One of these things where every guy in this movie is interesting, so you're paying attention, It's 80s character director Avengers. Yes. Jack Kehoe's so good. One of these things where like every guy in this movie is interesting. So you're paying attention, which pays off when the guys end up working themselves more into the plot than you would imagine. Jack Kehoe's established. Jack Kehoe's the guy who keeps wanting to get donuts. Right. And you're just like, well, it's just kind of funny that you have this guy with this hang dog energy there.

And you're like, no, but he's the snitch. This is important. It is important. You need to be tracking it. And then the guys in the FBI van eventually figure this out. And it's just one thing after another. The thing of like, oh, you seem stressed out. Do you want donuts? You need to work yourself up. Do you want some donuts? Right. But when he starts doing it, I'm like, this is just a funny character detail. This guy goes to donuts for everything. And then you start to learn donuts is code word for,

he's ratting right? He's gonna make a collect call The movie's so smart about finding ways to through characterization and like charm Make every little detail memorable for one reason or another so that you are keeping track of everything David yes ants ants aunts David. Yes? Aunts. Aunts? Aunts. Aunts, aunts, aunts, aunts, aunts. Uh, I hate getting cornered by them. We all do.

I knew that was going to be a relatable conversation starter. Why aren't you getting married? What's going on with that promotion? Why haven't you moved out of Mom and Dad's basement? Griffin. Oh, those were directed at me? Apparently. Now I feel attacked.

Get out of the basement, Griffin! Uh, I got it. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. She doesn't listen. basement Griffin oh those were directed at me I don't know I feel attacked get out of the basement Griffin I listen she just judges judges you're getting

together with your family you might have to be in a barrage with these kinds of questions but in there and grin and bear it I don't want you feeling that way when you talk to your doctor about like a weird rash or that you eat pizza when too many times a week or something else. Unfortunately. We have Redford Filth by this head copy right now. Unfortunately, the twist to this riddle is that the doctor is my aunt.

Oh no. But other people might have another one. I can't treat this patient. He's my nephew. Yeah. Enter Doc Doc, the place where you can find and book doctors who'll make you feel comfortable and actually listen to you. We're talking about what I'm talking about. Tens of thousands of doctors, all with verified patient reviews so you can make sure

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you don't have to wait on hold with a receptionist, and they've all got verified reviews from real actual patients. Thank God, because you know, the unfortunate thing is, the receptionist, my other aunt. Sheesh. Yeah, when I go to the doctor's office, I get in the... Are you calling from a basement?

ZocDoc, okay? Yep. I use this, and you should too. Go to zococ.com slash check and download the ZocDoc app for free then find and book a top rated doctor today That's zocdoc.com slash check ZocDoc.com slash check you can get an appointment like 24 to 72 hours Yeah, or in the middle 48 hours in Ulti Murphy, which I accidentally said is Ulti Murray twice. The plot of this film is, is what you have to set up here,

is that he's got to go get the Duke, Jonathan Mardukas, a mob accountant. He is a mob accountant, right? Yeah. He was working for an accounting firm. He didn't realize that their main client was the mob Right. He embezzled 15 million dollars from the Chicago outfit He only realized too late how long he had been spending helping the mob hide their money

So then he started funneling it into charities, right? And then so he skipped bail. There's a four hundred fifty thousand dollar bail He has skipped so Walsh has to go get him within five days Walsh is like you you gotta give me 100 grand, and you know, and all this kind of thing ensues. Penaliano put up the money, because he was like, this is gonna be a big payday, but he didn't realize until after he had put up the money that it was the Duke,

how high the stakes are of the situation, how many people are gonna be after him, and he's basically like, I default if this guy, if I don't deliver him and my business goes under. You need to do this. De Niro is like, I almost died tonight. If I'm doing this, it's my last job.

And he's it's a midnight run. It's easy. This guy's a fucking wimp. Right. The idea being right, like how hard this could this be? This guy's not scary. He's an accountant. Right.

But Walsh is just at his breaking point. His thing has always been I want to go off and like just start a restaurant Live a normal life and have a coffee shop and everyone tells him like there is no version of you that will ever have a normal life There's no fucking getting out for you. I cannot see you being happy No, but he's like saying this is it it's a hundred thousand dollars or I walk away. I don't owe you anything Can I be the life changing amount. Yeah. So he has to, he's charged in LA.

Yes, this is the question I've always had. But he lives in New York. Yeah. And it's- Serrano's in Vegas. And Serrano's in Vegas. And it's just, it's unclear to me why he's charged in LA. He's hiding out in New York why he's charged in LA.

He's hiding out in New York. He's hiding in New York. But here's the- But his wife lives there. No, no, no, no. That's sort of their pit of terror. Oh, okay. You imagine. Or they're staying with friends.

The issue is this. They've both been hiding out in New York. When Mosley pulls him off the street and into the car and they have the banter about the sunglasses, Mosley says, I wanna take him into federal court. I don't want him being brought up on some bullshit local charge. What is the local charge in Los Angeles

that he has been arrested for? I can explain this very simply. The US federal court system is divided into nine districts. Nevada and California are in the same ninth district, which is headquartered in California. Like, that's what it is. He's being charged for Vegas crimes federally, because these are federal crimes, they're interstate crimes,

and he's being brought to trial in California. Like, that's what it has to be, right? No, but he's implying that he doesn't, like, it's some, like, minor charge that he was arrested for. Well, he skipped bail. Yeah, that Eddie, I don't know. It's one part of the movie I've never been able to figure out sure

What is yeah, but like I assume like that's why he needs to be in, California, right? Like that's right. That is the purpose of this movie. Yes for getting him to California, right? That's where he was arrested and that's where he skipped the feds want to use the Duke to finally take down Serrano That's their hope and Serrano wants to do anything you can to make sure that the Duke doesn't live long enough to help them. It's not because that's where he's at, it's because he committed federal crimes in the 9th District of America, which is, he did it in Vegas.

His crimes are in Vegas. Serrano or Duke we're talking about? The Duke. Okay. Serrano is a Chicago mobster. But he had to have been arrested in Los Angeles because why else would Eddie Mosccon be his bail bondsman? Right

Good question But yeah, that's fine, right? But you know like or he was brought to he was gonna be charged there and he skipped bail Okay, right. I don't know. I mean, I don't think it matters It's just the one part that I've never been able to put two and two together There's a lot of stuff in this movie that if you slowed down you would kind of be like well That doesn't seem practical or that doesn't follow that but it doesn't really matter at all. Yeah. Sure.

Not that this is a sloppily written movie but like you know, across town. But it's fun watching. Across country. Jack Walsh's sort of like all his techniques at the beginning, him calling the woman, pretending to be Mosley, getting the record of the tape, tracking the address back, you know. This is the quasi-illegal shit that bounty hunters do. Right. We're like, that's against the law. And that process stuff is fun.

And for this chunk of the movie, you're like, this guy is good at his job. How is Charles Broden going to outwit him? Right? That's true. Then he annoys him to death. Yeah. Right. Just to set it all out, of course, you have the Duke, right?

Robert De Niro wants him to get Robert De Niro's bail bonds paid, right? Yeah. Obviously, Joe Pentliano wants him for the same reason, right? Yeah. Yaffa Cotto wants him because he's a Fed who wants to bring him, you know, who needs him for this trial. Alonzo Mosley. Correct.

Yaffa Cotto's character. Dennis Farina wants him to off the key witness. Yes. He is the you know a mobster John Ashton wants him Martin Dorfler wants it because he is basically the Constantly being pitted against Jack Walsh is a rival. He's the Del Taco And it's yeah, basically when it takes to near more than a day and paniano hasn't heard from him He's like I'm calling up Marvin I'm gonna break the bank for you $25,000 because Pans has real stakes because he'll lose

Yeah, yeah, so those these are the five sort of elements that want the Duke right I have set them all out Yeah, and right this movie is just sort of them constantly bumping into each other as Jack's dragging So like when they're in Chicago it Mosley has them arrested and then Serano's stupid goons start shooting at the FBI and Jack and the Duke are able to get away. And Serano basically isn't leaving his penthouse in Vegas where he sits with Sidney, who's a sort of like sad sack fixer man. And who's like the kind of lawyer who's like, no, you know, if someone is like, I want to kill that guy soon.

He's like, I can't hear that. I can't hear that. I mean, he's not, you know, that's the vibe. But he's got these two stupid goons, his, his bebop and rock steady who he sends out, who are the ones who are actively going after and wooing Jack Walsh directly and saying like, we'll fucking pay you four times as much. And in a brilliant choice by of course course, former Chicago cop Dennis Farina, a real, you know, beef on whack of a person.

We've talked about him from Michael Mann movies and stuff. Is that he doesn't yell. He's always just like, listen, if you don't do it, I'll stab you with a pencil. All right? You know, like he's not doing the like, ah, not the crazy scary guy. It's another day at the office.

It's what makes him terrifying The scene in the limo. Yes, it's like, you know, I came here to tell you two things One is you're gonna die tonight, right? Two is I'm gonna murder your whole thing. I'm gonna go home gonna have a nice meal Yeah, I'm gonna find your wife. I'm gonna kill her too. And it's so matter-of-fact. Yes. It's terrifying I do think this is I won't say greatest it is my favorite Chicago accent committed to film and Even amongst the Dennis Farina canon is something about the dialogue in this film and the way he's able to hit certain words If I never like need to for the sake of comedy do a shitty Chicago accent the phrase

I repeat my head is stab you in the neck with a fucking pencil You know, yeah, I think he says stab you through your heart stab stab you in the neck with a fucking pencil. You know? I think he says stab you through your heart. Stab you through the heart with a fucking pencil. Is this more on number one? Put more number two on the phone. Yeah, we haven't really talked about more on number one and more on number two yet. They're great.

They're great. Okay, so all right, what happens? Okay, like you say, Walsh seems to do his job. Mostly pulls him aside is like, don't fuck this up for us, and he's just like I don't work for you I don't like cops. I don't like the government right. I don't know what you're talking about He's making fun of their sunglasses, but Mosley hates him immediately not only is this guy like obstructing justice in his mind But the guy is like fucking having a laugh at him at the same time, right? And then of course quietly steals his badge

and starts using it. I had a weird breakthrough with this movie a few months ago because we'd watched it again. Now it's like the whole family's seen it, so we watch it periodically. 4K re-release came out the last couple of months. And not long after we did like our umpteenth re-watch of Casablanca and you watch them in that order

and like, holy shit, Jack Walsh is Rick rewatch of Casablanca. And you watch them in that order and like, holy shit, Jack Walsh is Rick Blaine from Casablanca. The guy who once believed in something. The former idealist, right, who then got screwed over. He's now out for himself. He is great with a quip. He's got a line for everything. And Rick is one step ahead of Jack

and then he got to start the restaurant that Jack wants to start. Yes, but he wants to. He even ends with guys in an airport together who have probably become friends. The bond has occurred. Yes. And similarly, the heart of this movie is the notion

that Jack basically let his wife and daughter get away for their own good. Yeah. Right? That like when you set up the my wife, my daughter, don't talk to me thing anymore, you're like, what did this guy do to fuck things up or is he like? An absentee father did he run away and instead you get to that scene which we will talk about later Oh my gosh That is so heartbreaking where you're like this guy basically knew he had to leave them

Right because he's such a mess right and. And because they were in possibly danger. Right. You could be better taken care of by the exact type of guys who ruined my life. Right. Corrupt cops. That he has, in this very Rick kind of way, made this sacrifice in his mind of like, the ultimate expression of love is to like, make sure you never see me ever again. And at the same time, as a result of that,

I will stick my neck out for no one. I will not help anybody. And then in the end, he like rediscovers the sort of joie de vivre of being a cop. He's so excited to be getting the wire put on him. Right, and you watch this movie and you don't think the first time, oh, there's obviously some tragic backstory for Jack Walsh that's going to get teased out. You're like, this is default Robert De Niro kind of tough guy shit Fuck you don't talk to me you buy it just as sort of like a persona

They tease it out so fucking well I was talking to I saw monkey man yesterday with my friend, right? Which is an incredibly okay Agreed and is most frustrating I would say on a plot level like it works as an action movie and the extra 30 plus minutes of like story shit are not that compelling But it also very early sets up like he's on some revenge mission What's the reason and you get flashes of stuff and you're like, okay I think I basically know the shape of what is driving this guy right and yet an hour in the movie like grinds to a halt

and is like, now we're gonna explain everything. And you're like, none of the details that you are now taking tens of minutes to spell out to me are surprising. I basically could infer all of this versus the deliberateness with which you get information reveals on Jack, it takes maybe 30 minutes before the wife comes up. Then when you go to the house, you get more about it. He doesn't even make the Serrano connection

until the train, right? Like the boxcar, like it's so deliberate. And every time, because it's just De Niro, because part of his persona is this guy doesn't like talking. You're sort of like mapping it onto De Niro on talk shows. Eh, he doesn't really wanna open up. Where you're like, yeah, I think this guy doesn't like talking. You're sort of like mapping it onto De Niro on talk shows. Eh, he doesn't really want to open up. Right. Where you're like, yeah, I think this guy's told me

everything I need to know. I have a complete picture of him. Right. And then every 20 minutes, he'll be like, there's like slightly more to the story. And you just realize how tragic this fucking guy is. The watch thing, too, is a way that they kind of from the beginningwriting short hand.

Right. They're showing him. But that sort of invisible setup where you're like, what's part of this guy's deal? He looks like he smells bad. He's got one jacket and his watch doesn't work. Like, it feels like a funny character quirk. And then you're like, this guy's entire life is this watch. It's all symbolized on this one fucking broken watch

he refuses to take off right So he gets the Duke he gets the Duke pretty quickly using his like you say bounty hunting skills Yeah, um terrified of the dog which I love just like this guy is an invincible action hero No, he's gonna hide out in a shower and still try to arrest him They'll be like you got to take the dog away first And it's if you're the Duke and you're a fugitive and your dog is barking at a bathroom door, don't you just leave the house and like head to the airport?

The woman that De Niro calls, who then he tapes the call. Yeah. She's already warned him that someone's coming for him. Is that the woman they're staying with in New York? No. She's the woman who like he called when he was arrested. Like, it has not occurred to anyone in law enforcement other than Jack Walsh to actually look at the booking sheet

and see who he called and see what her deal is. Right, and he was able to get the booking sheet because the cops like him at that one person. These are the reasons why I love rewatching this movie, is every time there are, like, another two connections I make. You're obviously, like, 40 viewings ahead of ahead of me yes so you're closer to the complete puzzle yep I'm here for all of your questions except the one about which what the charge was for the do someday you'll crack it yeah and that and that's

when they give you the Pulitzer yes um I have a daughter three-year-old congratulations Alan I know it's been a few years since you were parenting a toddler, but you might remember that when you want them to do something, they stall, right? And there's sort of a brilliance to how they stall. Like it's time to go take a bath and they're like, I want to get that one toy. And you're like, okay, if it gets you to the bath, that's what you're thinking. And they're like, I'm gonna get this toy and then I'm gonna ask to do some other bullshit, right?

That is what the Duke is doing for the next hour, 45 minutes of the movie. But you're almost always kind of believing his bullshit. Well, this is the calculation I love. If he arrests the Duke, and then he basically doesn't really talk a complete sentence straight until he gets on the plane.

Right? Like, he's just kind of like sullenly like a teenager who's being dragged to some fucking event. Just being like, this sucks. I hate this. Right? But if you watch the scene when they're driving to the airport, and he realizes this is not an FBI agent, he's lying.

Right. You can see the light going on in Grodin like, oh, wait a minute, I'm not in as much trouble as I thought I was. He's strategized. I can get one over on this guy. I can mess with this guy. But then he doesn't really make a play until the plane and because he has said so little up until that point, that first time you're watching this movie, you go, well, obviously

the comedic setup of this movie is that Groton is gonna be the Dilemma right but maybe the problem is he's the most annoying man in the world in Genuine neuroses yes, I watch it the first time I buy He doesn't want to be out playing to the extent that later when obviously When he's flying the plane you're kind of scandalized Yeah, you're like I thought that really was his one. The audience feels as offended as De Niro does. Because even past the flight breakdown, the next couple of moves you start to go like,

this guy's fucking with him. He's a little stinker. He's Bugs Bunny. He's deliberately trying to piss him off. It's not just that he's accidentally annoying him with his neuroses, but you still kind of go like, well, the plane thing must have been... The plane thing has to be the one infallible real... One, because he plays it so well.

He did what you did in real life where he does the nail biting and the hand stuff. No, no, no. The way it kind of builds and then erupts. But also, it's grodent. Because at first, he's just sort of like, I'm telling you, I can't fly. And then it's like, these things go down. These things go down, man. Too heavy. Also, it's grodin'. Because at first he's just sort of like, I'm telling you, I can't fly. And then it's like, these things go down.

These things go down, man. Too heavy. It's grodin'. Yes. You're like, yeah, that guy kind of plays a neurotic guy. Like, sure, this guy's neurotic. That's gonna be the problem. It's that this guy's so goddamn neurotic.

And then you realize even... But he's an innocent, you think. Right, exactly. And then even when he's saying, I really think you ought to go to see your wife and kid in Chicago. And there's a part of your brain that's still like, that might be like an honest recommendation from this guy. Like, he really does see in Jack the need to sort of finish that up.

But of course, there's another part of him that's just my daughter going like, yeah, I'll change my diaper, but like, we need to... I kind of need to see what's going on over there, you know, like, and you're like, you know, I'll change my diaper, but like, we need to, I kind of need to see what's going on over there, you know, like, and you're like, okay. But a beautiful part of this movie is, I think, yes, it was a completely strategic move on his part, the daughter push.

He's just looking for any way to go off ramp and break Walsh's plan, because he thinks that gives him wiggle room. The second he witnesses the interactions with the daughter and the wife is the first time he's like, fuck, now I kinda care for this guy. It's like the like, don't name the animal

or else you'll grow attached. In that moment, he becomes a little too invested into this guy's deal. Where then the next time he asks him about what happened with the daughter and the wife, he's actually asking as a human being. Yes. He's not trying to trick him. Their whole relationship just completely flips

on its head after that, because it's also, Jack sees that the Duke has witnessed this and not said anything. The most intimate thing imaginable, basically, in Jack's life, like the thing he wouldn't want anyone to see. He would rather that Charles Gruden look at his butthole than witness five minutes of him talking to his daughter. Of course.

And then as soon as they're out of the house, we still need to talk about what happens in the house itself. Yeah, they're getting into the station wagon, and he pauses and he makes sure that the Duke's coat is not caught in the door. And it is such a tender gesture. And it's like, OK, this is an actual relationship now. Everything has changed.

The moment, seeing it with a crowd, the IFC's screening was so revelatory. There's so many things I didn't notice, but also just fun to watch the way, because this is a movie that the audience laughs more as it goes on, not because the jokes are getting funnier, but because you're getting to know the characters better, and because the tension is mounting so exquisitely within the plot, that then any release is so, like, welcome, there's the moment that just the audience exploded. Oh, yeah. Which is another one of those, like, oh, quietly,

a humongous shift in the character dynamics of this movie, when he calls Pantaleon and he says on the phone that he's gonna... Yeah, yeah, if you don't give me my money, I'm just gonna shoot the Duke and he says on the phone that he's gonna... Yeah, yeah, if you don't give me my money, I'm just gonna shoot the Duke and dump him in the river. And then he turns to the Duke and he very broadly pops his eyes and says, no, no, no. He does the no sort of like head shake.

And it's so subtle. Yeah, it's been so, it's been so fucking funny to do that kind of shit. So funny, the audience went insane. It felt like the theater was going to collapse. Yep. And it's like such a funny moment, but also what's so funny about it is like, this guy's decided he gives a shit now, that he needs to console him.

Like, what is that invisible shift that happened there? Yes. Which part of it is they've just started spending too much time together. Right. It's impossible And and what you slowly come to realize is like Serrano is the person that ruined Walsh's life in theory He should valorize this guy He should fucking love the Duke right as like you fucked with the guy who fucked with me

No one's been able to get one up on him. This is a feel good story if I've ever seen one. And instead, because of his job, it's like the only way for me to get out of this whole fucking world forever maybe is to deliver this man to his death sentence. Yeah. And that's why I think in the first chunk of this movie,

especially, he's kind of trying not to get to know him. Yeah. You know, like that's a defense mechanism, right? Like, so you have the plane fiasco. Okay. So they can't take a plane. Let's take a train. So they get on like a cross country train and they are, you know, that I feel

like is where the Duke is really like, you know trying to hit that home, right? Like you're I'm gonna die like you know I am like, you know, I won't last a minute They get the word that Jack and the Duke weren't on the plane when it landed. Correct. So Dorfler is dispatched right and the first thing he does is Cancels Walsh's credit card. Yes. Yes, which you could even in 1988 you could not do with that little information That's true, but also probably happens too quickly, but still, whatever. It's funny. Yes.

And it helps the movie so much. Yeah, it creates so much. We'll talk more about the money in a little bit, but yes, that really helps. And also, De Niro just really plays well the, like, I pay my bills, like, run it again. Can you run it again? Can you run it again? But then you get to the moment at the train counter where he's trying to finesse his way through the situation and he realized that he set up conflicting narratives where he's like trying to like finesse his way through the situation

and he realized that he set up conflicting narratives of he's using Mosley's badge. Right. Sir, Jack Walsh is not the name on that ID. Yeah. Like he's not airtight. No. So, Dorflert boards the train in Pittsburgh. There is a fight, a humorous fight ensues.

I would say that John Ashton fighting anyone in this movie or being physical in any way is hilarious. Would you agree? Like, just he's a physically hilarious person. Yeah, and it's so funny to cast him in this right after Beverly Hills Cop, where his bit is to be the ultimate straight man. Like, there's the most by-the-book, button-down cop. He be the ultimate straight man like there's the most by the book button-down cop

He's the one who goes like oh Axel. You know yes, right and then this movie is just like Trash he's like he's like a lumpkin the scum bum he is really he is Talking about this being one of Elfman's best scores in my opinion first of of all, I think... Obviously they have a long-running connection. We've discovered this in our Patreon episode. Yes, Hot Tomorrow. When I watched Hot Tomorrow's, I was kind of freaked out to realize Oingo Boingo was in it. And this is on the earlier end of Elfman's career. I mean, it's like Beetlejuice is the same year. I was about to look up his tomography. So he's done Pee-wee, he's done Back to School, but this is within his first five. But it's such an outlier, not only from, he's done Back to School, but this is within his first five.

But it's such an outlier, not only from what he's done to that point, but basically from everything he's done since then. This sounds nothing like any other Daniel Scor. Correct. It is a musical one-off. It feels a little more indebted to like pop-era oingo-boingo, which I don't love, but I think this is kind of the best version of. But this is also a score that has like ten good themes in it. It is a movie that like Star Wars is like, this is this character's suite. This is the music when Darth Vader enters. And all the themes are good but they're unique.

And Marvin's theme is so fucking good. It's so funny. Every time the Marvin music kicks in, it's a bing bing a bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bama-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a- driving you a little crazy. Not me. It's a lot. I like the score. Some people are wrong. Right. Yeah, I think it's necessary energy. It's in concert with the film and it adjusts to the tones of the movie well. Like the sort of- I just have to kind of like acknowledge. There's definitely a lot of people who are like, I wish the score wasn't so kind of like, you know, dominant.

But like the aggressive sort of like, the theme that gets repurposed as Try to Believe, a banger song. When you tell people, do you know that Danny Elfman wrote lyrics to the theme and wanted to be a single and the studio rejected it you go like Good call in the studio's part that thing probably sounded like dog shit, and then you listen to it You're like it is a fucking banger. It is so Goddamn good. It is the one Oingo Boingo song I really like. Yeah, so there's an Oingo Boingo version, but there is, if you can track down the Outer Print Midnight Run soundtrack,

there's the version he did where it's like, Try to Believe by Mosley and the B-Man or something like that. And it's the same performance, but it's got a gospel choir backing him up instead of Oingo Boingo. It's so good. I will send it to you. Yeah, it's incredible. And it's basically the score they play at the end of the movie, but they've lifted the lyrics off from it. Put some lyrics on it. What's wild is because that score is such a like Axl F style, we need the fucking jam

when our hero is doing his cool shit and hijinks are happening. These slowed down emotional version of it hits so hard and it should feel like the thing we now all mock in legacy sequel movie trailers where you do the slowed down dramatic version of the Ghostbusters theme. Right, the most tiresome, like, yeah, you can't just like change the tempo on this, like, that's not enough.

But it's like he somehow designed a piece that worked in both ways. Right. Yes. I'm trying to think of the next thing after the train. No, the train, the train they get off the train, then you have this running thing where the FBI keeps showing up too late. Which has again, another one of the funniest moments in the movie.

Yafikoto's got his one underling who always says the thing that Yafikoto has just figured out and then he just looks back and he's silent. And the train porter says, you know, he's looking for Jack Walsh, he's like, his real name's Mosley. Mosley! Yes, and that again is one of the big laughs in the movie. I think I love about Yaffa Cotto in general,

but it really sticks out to me here. It feels like his tongue is too big for his mouth. Like when he's talking, he is struggling to get words out. I was on, in the 90s, I was on, this is how long ago, I was on a listserv to talk about homicide life on the streets. And first we called the listserv the box after the interrogation room. At a certain point, there was a split between members of the group, because some of them couldn't stand some of the others.

So we created a second listserv and we called this one Fafamim, because there's a line of dialogue that he says on that show that none of us could understand. It's like, did G just say Fafamim? Yeah. Because it's just like, yeah. Of course he plays Al Giordello, right? That's the character on Homicide,

which was not written as a black character. No, it's a Sicilian guy. Based on a Sicilian guy, a real Sicilian guy, right? Yeah. And they were just like, yeah, but he's so good. That's the character on Homicide, which was not written as a black character based on a Sicilian guy, a real Sicilian guy, right? And they were just like, yeah, but he's so good. He's Yafet Kato. Right. Did you guys know, by the way, this is not the only film where he plays Alonzo Mosley?

What is the other? I do know. Wait, that's something I do know. Fuck. Okay. There's a Larry the Cable Guy film called Witless Protection. And whoever directed it was obviously a big fan of Midnight Run. And so Yafet Kado is in this as an FBI agent named Alonzo Mosley.

He's dressed like a man in black. He's traveling with other men in black types. It turns out midway through the movie that he's in fact crooked. So they're spitting in the face of the legacy of this film. Well, I don't like that. I was into it until that point. No, no, no, no. But here's the best part. Here's the best part. This is a Lionsgate movie.

Nobody thought to get permission to use the character of Alonzo Mosley. So when they had to release it on home video, he is now called Ricardo Bodi. They just dubbed over all of the dialogue. Good stuff, right? That's the kind of hilarious situation that the cable guy might be in the middle of.

So on the one hand, you have Heart 8, which is also an unofficial sequel, you know? But That's the kind of hilarious situation that Larry the Cable Guy might be in the middle of. On the one hand, you have Heart Eight, which is also an unofficial sequel. But that's the good version. And then you have this, which is the bad version. Who was it? I'm sorry for not crediting this properly, but someone on some podcast,

I think it might have been on Doughboyz, a guest was talking about Larry the Cable Guy Health Inspector and walking by that poster with their girlfriend, and they didn't know that Larry the Cable Guy Health Inspector and walking by that poster with their girlfriend and they didn't know that Larry the Cable Guy was a comedian, they weren't aware of his persona. And they were like, how complicated is the premise of this movie? The setup on the poster is the guy has two jobs at once.

Larry the Cable Guy Health Inspector? They didn't get that it was like, where the cable guy is. Well, right. And then when you watch that movie, you're like, oh, this is Ironclad. This thing makes perfect sense. It's like Midnight Run. Right. Yes.

Obviously, worth noting that Philip Baker Hall in Heartache, Paul Thomas Anderson's first film, is sort of playing like a old, washed up, dour version of the guy he's here. It's like, what if that guy 20 years? Renamed Sydney. Yeah, 10 years later. The movie was originally titled Sydney and they made him change the title, but he would rewatch Midnight Run obsessively and go like, what's that guy's fucking story? And made his first movie about that.

I didn't realize that Larry the Cable Guy health inspector fits into this. I was thinking about the like- It's with no- I'm sorry. It's with no- I'm sorry. It's with no- I about the like it's with no it's with the production to be clear and you are the one bringing the health inspector I'm sorry right with this protection is it's the one we're on the poster he has a gun and like a supermodel in his if I'm Alicia bitch okay there you go culture was doing great them letterbox list rep rep theater screening series, secret, secret, sequels, secret, sequels, Sydney,

enemy of the state. Sure, sort of a conversation sequel, right? Yeah. I think you'd have to put split in there. It's like enemy of the state is like instead of the conversation it's like the screaming, the yelling. Right. Instead of we're having a conversation, it's like, ah! Okay, what was the third one you said? I think it had to split, which is a different version. But it's like the more formalized version. It's the formalized version. It's like FYI, this was the same guy. It's the legally cleared version. But I do like this thing when someone casts an actor

and is like, we're sort of metacasting them, but also hinting that maybe it's literally the same guy. But are we... we're not doing like Michael Keaton playing Ray Nicolette in two unrelated movies based on Elmore Leonard novels. Almost think... Like that kind of counts, like how Michael Keaton playing Ray Nicolette in two unrelated movies based on Elmore Leonard novels. Almost think. Like that kind of counts, like how Michael Keaton pops up and out of sight and they're like,

he's playing the same guy that he played in Jackie Brown, which is the same character. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, anyway. Midnight run, okay, so what happens next? Okay, so they get kicked off, they get off the train because the door flows caught them, they go to the bus station, they have trouble getting the bus ticket because at this point

he gets caught with the badge. Yes. So they use whatever cash that Jack has, they take a bus to Chicago. They get to Chicago, the hitman, Mosley and the FBI turn up, but at the same time the hitman starts shooting at them. They get away. At that point, they go to see Jack's ex-wife. While they're on the buses when the Duke is like trying

to be like, maybe you should see your wife and daughter. Because I really think you should do that. When the Duke clocks the watch for the first time. That's the first moment where he calls out the watch, where he says, like, I got people in my life who love me defensively, brings up the wife and daughter, says he hasn't seen them in nine years. Let's talk about the scene.

Not very popular. Why you unpopular with Chicago Police Department or the scene with the family? That's part of the setup. Yes. Yes. We hadn't said that phrase before, and I felt like it needed to be said.

But no, they go to the ex-wife's house, the ex-wife's son with the second husband, the crooked cop, answers the door. And he's just told us that he hasn't spoken to either of them in nine years. Yes. The door opens and she is not an ounce surprised. with the second husband, the crooked cop, answers the door. And he's just told us that he hasn't spoken to either of them in nine years. The door opens and she is not an ounce surprised. Yes, it's true.

There's this sort of knowing look. She later says, you guys are all over the news. So she like even recognizes the Duke at this point, but you can tell that she saw this news story and was like, he's gonna fucking show up at my door. Yep. He's in trouble, he's gonna show up at my door. Yeah, it's it's not there is no surprise. There was no disbelief No, and they like he's trying desperately and she's frustrated with him And the way movies like this are set up in our expectations from watching many movies like this

You're waiting for her to chew him out because you assume the thing he hasn't revealed is like he cheated on her, he was a workaholic, he neglected her, that he fucked up in some way in his interpersonal relationship. He's such an obvious mess that, right, you're just like this guy couldn't keep hold of his family for like work reasons. But she's looking at him with like great sadness. Right. Yes. Right?

And almost like a sense of like apology to him. And you're like, what is the dynamic here? Because when you find out like what actually happened, you don't necessarily know what he told her. Yeah. Like it may just have literally been, you know, like review with Forrest McNeil where Andy Dale, he has to divorce his wife without explaining it.

It's just sort of like, I need to leave town. I'm sorry, I can't say why. Something bad happened. Or, but like, best case scenario, it was a fabled man style situation where he was like, I'm going to pretend that I'm a dirt bag and leave to keep you clean of this. And you're like, and then what does the daughter think? And then, yep, when they're shouting, they're so upset, and then all of a sudden, everybody stops. Yeah.

And you turn and you see his daughter, Denise, and if you see this movie in a theater, you can hear a goddamn pin drop. Right. Yeah. Any setting, any time, because everyone immediately understands, oh, this is what this means. This is how much his life has been ruined.

Right. This is the huge sacrifice or loss or whatever. And Wals totally cracks, you immediately see an entirely different version of him. He cannot figure out how old she is. He can't do the math on it. Again, this gets back to De Niro repeating things. He says, you know, what grade are you in? She says, eighth.

Are you in the eighth grade? Like, he doesn't know what else to even say to her. No, and he like hugs her for a long time, but in this way where? Like, he doesn't know what else to even say to her. No, and he, like, hugs her for a long time. But in this way where it feels like he cannot figure out what is the normal way to hug someone, he keeps readjusting. Yeah, he doesn't seem comfortable hugging a basically grown person. Like, you know, his kid's grown up.

He keeps, like, changing the position of his hands and his neck. And apparently there's a lot more dialogue in the scene originally. Like they have a real conversation while the ex-wife's off getting the keys and the money. And I forget whose idea it was. It might have been De Niro's. It's like, no, cut all of that out.

Like you need to see that- Did they shoot it and cut it out? Or did they cut it out on the day when they were running it? Do you know? I think that they may have shot it and cut it out because they realized, no, like this is so much more powerful if he's not barely even able to get three words out to her. It feels like that thing, I mean, I feel,

I know she did this early in her career and I think she still does it, but that's Celine Sciamma will do, where she'll write very overt dialogue and shoot the full scene and then get into the editing room and be like, well, this doesn't need to be set. That's conveyed in the character's face.

But having the actors say it in the scene does help the energy even if you're not gonna use those line readings Yeah, when she goes to get the money and he's just like This is insignificant. Like this is insufficient. There is no way to actually catch up with you to the degree I want to in this time, right? There's only so much I can talk to you. There's only so much depth we can get to. And you can see him trying to game out, like, do I apologize to her? Is she just so happy to see me? There's a certain degree to which she was looking at him like a stranger. Like she knows it's her father, but also hasn't seen him in so long that it must be bizarre for her. And he can't say anything to explain it.

Cause how could you possibly explain or justify that they haven't even been in touch? No, no. So the man who is raising her now is like a fucking dirty cop. The kind of guy that Jack Walsh torpedoed his life to prevent himself from becoming. Like he does not want to burden her with that. Like explaining why he's not around explains why she has been raised in this life. And turns her against her stepfather.

Right, like there's this part of him that's just like, it's easier for me to be the bad guy. And then yeah, she chases him out with the fucking babysitting money. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, he rejects it and he does the right thing and all that, you know, obviously he's never gonna take the money.

But it's very emotional. Although, I've thought about this, if he takes the money, which again, he should not take, there's no version where he should take it. Obviously he can pay her back eventually. If he takes the money, there's no shootout in Amarillo because they can drive all the way there, they've got enough gas money, no litmus configuration,

no chorizo and eggs, you know, no being in the river. Well then we're losing some great scenes. It's for them, worse for us. He doesn't find out that the Duke is a pilot. None of the rest of the movie happens if he has her babysitting money. Yeah. Right, well, he turns it down, he does the right thing.

No, paint the daughter for later conversation. Let's keep going through the phone. Okay, yeah, just, there's another thing about the daughter that I need to bring up later. Okay. Okay. Well, everyone there's another thing about the daughter that I need to bring up later Okay. Okay. Well, everyone's gonna bring up the daughter later. I can do it now I love how the it's like the duality of how the goons keep having to report back That they failed and then the FBI have to keep reporting back to they keep kind of like pairing those together. Yes.

And the goons are such a pair of fucking dramokes. They really are. With the ones on the phone, the other one's fucking like body bagging him. Hey, look at this, how about on Cassaditch? Right, and trying out the hat and all this shit. Like they're just like,

this is fun, this is a trip for us. Yeah, right, they're actually getting to go on a field trip, this basically kind of a fight. And then interspersed with that, you constantly have Marvin winding up in police custody, Mosley showing up, taking his cigarettes and leaving. And then eventually, you get the sense that cops don't like FBI agents. And so one of them just rats out to Marvin where to go find Mosley next.

So Marvin's just a blunt force instrument. Anytime you cut to Marvin, when you cut back to Walsh, it makes you appreciate Walsh more. But I was about to say, right, is Marvin, he's not better to Walsh, it makes you appreciate Walsh more. But I was about to say, right, is Marvin... He's not better than Walsh at the job. He's bad. He's kind of bad, but he does have, right, like a sort of effectiveness in his own way that you do kind of witness.

His lack... He just doesn't ask a lot of questions or think out like the complex sort of dynamics at play. Yeah, and eventually you discover that he knows who the Duke is and has in fact reached out to Serano's crew. Right, because early on, Marscones says it to him, and he's like, I have no idea who the fuck that is.

You think it's kind of telling of the difference of Jack being that's, oh god, even just. Jack's a former cop. He's like, he's got more of a detective aura. And he has a history with Serrano, so he would have known about this. Yes. Hey, okay.

So then because of that, they make the phone call. You know, I'm in Anchorage, Alaska. Yes, where he's like, I know you guys are listening. Yes, I'm wearing a giant carnation. See, there's these guys, they're up the street. They stink of B.O., they constipate. Okay, all of that, that's great.

Sitting on their ass. It appeals to him that Marvin's also, right. Yeah, I mean, that he was the one who hired Marvin. Yes, they go to Amarillo, they, you know, the Duke hears about chorizo and eggs, and for the rest of my life, if I'm in a restaurant that serves chorizo and eggs, I have to order it.

Sounds good. I mean, I love chorizo. More on number one and more on number two, catch up to them, Dorfler interrupts it, then there's a car chase, a helicopter is chasing him. Jack shoots a helicopter out of the sky with a handgun. Cool. Yes.

It is cool, but of course, it is this, like, insanely heightened element in a movie that is largely grounded. This is an action-packed movie. This movie has lots of, like, brawling and cop business, gunplay a little bit, but the helicopter thing is the most 80s thing in this movie.

I will not complain about it at all. It is the one thing that feels like a studio requirement for the movie. That's what I mean. The studio's like, come on, we're gonna blow up. And you put the helicopter chase into the trailer. That's the moment that I think everybody remembers, is you guys are the dumbest bounty hunters I've ever seen. Right, and Danny Elfman's also like,

I just took the biggest breath in the world. I need to play this sax for five minutes, so can there be a long helicopter chase? I rewatched Jaws not too long ago, and the bit where Brody, like right after Brody has blown up the shark yeah he has a very similar reaction to Jack turning back to Marvin after he has shot a helicopter out of the sky pretty cool not bad yeah yeah exactly um yeah then they're in the river in New Zealand it's just so funny yes it's so funny that they flew to New Zealand. To basically drench fucking Robert De Niro.

Because Breast was like, I'm going to do a million takes. If we do this anywhere but New Zealand. Because it's like February. This is the problem. They had to go to the other side, the other hemisphere, where it is warm. But it had to match this whatever verdant landscape they have or whatever the hell. Which by the way, Ben, obviously he's left us now, sadly, Charles Gruden, but just a word of advice to you, they have like interchangeable like dummy handcuffs,

plastic handcuffs and metal handcuffs. Yes. And De Niro was like, we should use the metal, like in his like, sort of... Look better, right. Versimilitude, his Methodie intensity, that way I can yank on him more and all this sort of versimilitude, his methadone intensity. That way I can yank on him more and all this sort of stuff. So they almost always use the metal cuffs and the film shot for so much longer than they thought

and Charles Gruden had permanent scars on his wrist until the day he died. Yeah, these things really hurt your wrists. Yeah, they're not like, you know, like humane items. You know what I mean, handcuffs? Yeah, they have a real purpose to them. There's a reason when like you people do sexy handcuffs, they don't put the little fur on it

because they think it looks hot. Yeah. It's because it hurts their wrists. Yeah. I mean, what does cease and desist really mean, you know? I am with you. I just think the Friendly's Corporation is being very harsh to you, Ben, and I don't appreciate it.

I totally agree. The company should be called harshes, if that's how it wants to be. They're is being very harsh to you Ben and I don't appreciate it I totally should be called harsh is if that's how it wants. They're not being very friendly to me If they were like, you know, we're harsh is like you should have seen this coming Yeah, there is a spectrum to harassment one man's jokes. Apparently another family chain restaurants Did you write this out this off the dome? It looks like you were consulting a script. Ben's pointing at his noggin. You can get Churizo and eggs at Friendly's. Let's find out.

This is an incredible... Honestly, Friendly's grow up. All right. Well, Griff, does your lawyer strictly deal with entertainment affairs or... Yes. Damn it. Okay. Okay. Okay, so where were we?

Alan, you're actually doing a great job keeping the plot on track here. Yes, I'm a professional. A helicopter, right? We did all that. They're in the river. Jack saves the Duke, but then he's going to drown. The Duke saves him, makes Jack promise to let him go. Right.

Jack then puts the handcuffs right back on. And as soon as he's back out, they wind up at the Indian reservation. You find out the Duke is a pilot. Jack climbs aboard, the plane knocks the Duke out. This is the kind of fun action sequence where I'm like, this really does actually track within the movie. Totally. Like him dangling. It's very comical. It's very silly. Yes. They then steal some of the locals truck. They give them, you know, the Dukes Rolex at that point

They have coffee tea conversation is at the restaurant before yes, it's before the helicopter shows up It's there right there waiting for the Western Union office to open up and then they get intercepted along the way by more on number one I'm more on number two That's another quiet moment of kindness between them is he's asking for the chorizo and eggs. De Niro just shuts it down before he even asks. It's just like, we're not ordering that coffee tea, right? And then he looks at Grodin being really dejected, and he goes like, look, if I get you to LA,

I'll get you whatever you want. I'll get you one nice meal if we get to the other end of this. And Grodin, like a little child, is like, I just want chorizo and eggs. Like, it's like he's got the one idea in his head now. What do you want chorizo and eggs? Friendly's does not appear to sell chorizo. Wow. Sounds about right. Another mark against them. They're driving away from the Indian Reservation

and it's another one of the great conversations in the movie where you know Jack is so upset that the Duke has been lying to him and the Duke's like you lied to me first. This conversation makes me laugh so hard because like the Duke is wrong. He is absolutely the first person to lie. De Niro in response says what and he says it's so big that the mic pops. Did you hear that? I did. Clearly his reaction was bigger on that one take than the sound guys had anticipated, but the take is so funny they use it. I guess like, it's like what Jack like pretending to be an FBI agent, is that supposed to be the original lie?

No, no, the original lie is that Jack at the time he promises to let the Duke go. It's all the rigor thing that just happened. Right. Yes, doesn't know that the Duke has already lied to him about being afraid to fly. He said, you promised me that if I saved you from the river, you would let me go, and then you didn't. So as far as you knew, you lied to me first.

And Jack's like, I can't even argue with you. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So funny. It's just he's so, speaking to the Casablanca thing, forgot like the tagline for this movie was literally this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship Which is obviously Wow a direct cassettes. That's one. There's also one. It's like the FBI wants it Well, no both posters have the two tags. Okay, right The tagline I just said is on both and then right the they also have the long Preamble of like Charles Groton

Embezzled 50 million dollars the mob wants him dead the FBI wants him dead Robert De Niro just wants him to shut up right and the poster It's a painting of De Niro their handcuffs together And he's putting his hand over Groton's mouth and then the one where the Alan has the other one is the Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Which I can't even read it all Monday escape with their lives from New York, Tuesday impersonate FBI agents in Chicago, Wednesday steal plane in New Mexico, Thursday almost kill each other by accident, Friday almost kill each other on purpose. This is important. This came up when my daughter and I were driving in here to do this. She pointed out like, Jack doesn't really just exists in the movie on coffee and cigarettes. And I realized, okay, it's five days. The only thing we see him eat at any point

is the fried chicken on the train. Yeah. He guzzles a little bit of milk after the litmus configuration scene, which I guess we're gonna talk about. Is that the only, is the fried chicken the only thing that Jack eats for five days? And Grodin gives him such a hard time about it.

It does feel like it gets in his head where he's like, how can you eat like that? Don't you know about cholesterol? Why do you do things that are bad for you? Gordon's so fucking annoying. He's so annoying. It's a weapon, though. No, of course, he's deploying it,

and you don't even realize he's doing it. But I feel like if you were to make this movie today, it would be like Ryan Reynolds or Kevin Hart as the Duke. And they would just be annoying. They would not actually be able to take control of the scene. With all due respect to the late great Robin Williams, I think the same thing would have happened with him. Oh, right like This guy can be annoying if he's also sort of deadpan laconic and energy if the guys manic

It's gonna be unbearable the thing that's interesting about the share idea to me is Even though this is obviously the best casting in both parts you ever could have had Cher could have been good as Jack Walsh Cher would be good either of these things I think she could have, I mean if you watch her in Moonstruck she's kind of deadpan and frustrated 100% By Yellow and Cage

The way she reacts to Cage in Moonstruck is the way that De Niro reacts to Grodin in this like What the fuck are you talking about? Sharon Cage just doing this movie? Ooh. I mean, kinda could work. It's around here that Dorfler takes the Duke, right? In Arizona. You've got a ways to go.

Do I? What else is left? Do you want me to go there by beach? We're still on Wednesday or Thursday? No, no. So they all right. They've now stolen the Indian reservation truck. They've had the, you lied to me first argument. Jack's ulcer is acting up. And at that point it's, you know, needs milk. Yeah. The Duke's like, you know, they don't have any money. Give me the FBI badge.

I'm going to get you some money for that shit you eat. And he uncuffs him and trusts him. Yes. That's the final step is like, obviously if I'm going to do this this you need to uncuff me. And they go into Red's Corner Bar and he poses as Alonzo Mosley and he's looking for counterfeit bills and it's just this improv tour de force by Grogan. Yes. Yes. That is very funny. And as you said like, you know, De Niro can barely like stay in character. Right. Dark hair, light hair. Yeah. Sounds like our guy. But everything is he takes an extra 10 seconds to respond. That is his magic trick. And guess what?

It'll always make me laugh. Every time. Why they call you red. They take the stolen money, they buy food at the convenience store, they then jump on the freight train. Oh, the freight train, right. Yeah, Jack loses his food. So again, he doesn't eat.

Then they have the exchange that I used to quote all the time at the end of my old podcast Which people thought was a lost quote, but it's from Midnight Run See you in the next life Jack. Yeah, and Jack climbs over the trains like glad to see me I guess we're in the next life John But this people thought it was to John Locke See you in the next life Jack. They thought that was Desmond. Oh, okay. Desmond's always saying, see you in another life, brother. Yep, yep, yep. You're kind of familiar.

Okay, that's cool. It's Jack and John, the show had a Jack and a John. Yes, true. I thought it was an exchange between the two of them. But yeah, in the boxcar, you get the sex with animals thing. Yes, they're really thawing at this point. You get the watch.

And he finally explains the watch. It's always set half an hour ahead. His wife gave it to him because he's always late. It's almost like, oh, we need to watch like this. And the Duke finds out that the heroin dealer. You can see that coming? Come on. Do you know what the irony of this is?

I don't know if I've ever said this. Growing up, every clock in my house was set fast. Because my dad was like, well, your mother has no sense of time. So we need to fake what time it is to correct her. Okay, so you would be like, it's 11 o'clock, we gotta go, but actually it would be 10.30 or whatever. So then over time I'm like,

oh, the time is wrong. And I think it has fucked up my relationship with time forever where I just grew up in a house where I'm like, well, none of these numbers mean anything. This is like key blank check mythology I'm writing about here. Like, this is why you're always late. Ben and I are just looking at each other right now.

Yeah. Sort of perplexed. Can you put those cups on him though, maybe, for now? Does that make a lot of sense? As like a fucking... It makes as much sense as anything else, I guess. Your brain was just programmed to disbelieve time. His clocks are all lying to me.

Um, the, the, the other thing that happens on the train is that the Duke finds out that the heroin dealer Jack has told them about was Serrano. He confronts him like this is even a more of a betrayal now. You're not just sending me to die. You're sending me to be killed by your mortal enemy. You're doing his job for him. I can't believe you, Jack. All the other Chicago cops were dirty. Jack refused to take the money. They ran him out of town. They dirtied his name.

He took the falls. Well, yeah, they like planted heroin in his house or whatever and were gonna like bust him or whatever. And now his wife is married to one of the guys. Crooked cops. He's now a, he's made captain. But it's like the classic, like, he's on the take. He takes the money just like everyone else and thus, right,

he is, you know, protected, quote unquote, and he's rising through the ranks. But it's so key to Jack's personality. Of course, this is total fiction, nothing like that ever happens in real life. This guy sort of has this very like Boy Scout-y notion of like the idea of upholding the law, but now distrusts all actual government agencies because he's like well they're all

crooked. Okay so they jump off the train off the train they're in they're in Flagstaff or somewhere in Arizona. Yeah they're in Sedona. Jack steals a truck then we have the final like chase of the movie the Blues Brothers chase where there's a million cop cars coming after him. There's a bit like Danny Elfman takes another oh, I mean, when I watched Beverly Hills cop last night, there's a bit towards the end when all the Beverly Hills police cars are crashing into each other, coming into Maitland's house. That's like the sort of the, you know, the beta test version of what he does here. Absolutely. But right, this is where Dorfler gets. Yes, because he happens to just like literally be going down the road where Jack... Where he drives into them. Yes. Yeah, am I lucky or am I good?

I'm the fucking A, I'm the best. And you have this additional tension from the fact where you're just like, Dorfler's just kind of like 20% too dumb to totally understand the movie he's in. But then something like Dorfler, like Groden, the duke being like, trying the plane thing on him again, and Dorfler's like, fine, my answer for that is to punch you in the face.

You're like, right, Jax maybe should've just thought of that, right? Like too stupid for Jax to actually just be like, donk, you know, like that's how you deal with that problem. Dorfler's greatest asset is he just, like, lacks humanity? Like, it's impossible to get him to warm up to you. Right, exactly. He's too thick. Yes.

Right, but he also, like, can't game shit out. He's also good at swinging a car door open. But, like, when Moscon calls Marvin, you know, he's got a prisoner cuffed in the bathroom, and he is just completely, like, not treating this guy like a human being. Skone calls Marvin. You know, he's got a prisoner cuffed in the bathroom, and he is just completely like not treating this guy like a human being. And then you compare it to the Duke being able to talk his

way out of the bathroom on the train. Because Jack's still on some level, despite being cynical, despite not caring about anybody else or pretending to, is still a human being. No, when he ends up with Marvin, you almost read on him for a second that he's excited, where he's like, this guy might be easier.

This might be my lucky break. By the time you get to the hotel room or the motel room, he's like, I miss Jack. He's not saying it, but it's all over his face. Of like, I didn't know how good I had it. And if I'm gonna die either way, I could spend a couple days with someone I kind of respect versus this guy's just like a battering ram.

And you get the Tracy Walter scene. And one of the things that I love about the movie is there's all of these like service workers throughout with a couple of exceptions like the bus station lady. And they're so helpful and so kind like Tracy Walter is exactly what Jack Walsh needs in this moment in his life. And the train porter is helpful to everybody. And it's just, there's a lot of that in The Waitress and Amarillo. So it's like a love letter to traveling the country

and you know, being in these crazy things. That's true. There's a warmth to this movie. It's not right about how like, whatever, the middle of America sucks or anything like that. Like there is, yeah, there's a lot of charm along the way, even though both main characters basically just want to, like, go to sleep, like, the entire time.

The distrust is at the people in extreme positions of power. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. To the point that, like, Yaffa Cotto is basically just a good guy in this movie who's trying to arrest a mobster, but the whole time you're like, fuck this guy. Shut up. But then there's the...

I'm trying to build a case against a man you literally know to be evil. He ruined your life. But then there's... Great turn. There's a great turn. Once Jack is in FBI custody, he figures out what's going on. What's actually happening. Yeah, Dorfler is now working with Moira number one and Moira number two. And he calls Eddie and they've got like the Joey pants profane meltdown to end all Joey

pants profane meltdown on the phone. And he's like, tell Alonzo I want to make a deal. And suddenly he and Alonzo are partners. And it is so delightful. It feels like the last Jedi when fucking Kylo and Rey start going at the guards. They are powerful together, even though they're still grumpy at each other. I never thought this would happen. I never thought they'd be fighting against the same common enemy.

How could this setup happen where they want to work together? There's a callousness, I think, where Mosley is kind of like, if this fails, he is the casualty, not me. Yes. Because, you know, Walsh is the casualty, not me. Yes. Because Walsh is the one who has to basically bump into Serrano and convince him to say a thing. He's so irritated with Walsh that at least he would get some perverse pleasure from watching Walsh go to jail

as punishment for... But nonetheless, they are allies. But the thing is when you see them on the plane and Jack is running through how it's all gonna work Mostly is getting like happier and happier and this is not a human being you're accustomed to being right in a good mood at all Like he's like, oh my god, like I love this fucking guy right now. This is a good fucking plan He's the worst person I've ever met and now he's my favorite human being alive It has to be the first time he smiles in the entire movie. Yes He smiles in and then when he busts Serrano, yes smile on Yafet Kato like could light up Arizona. It's beautiful.

But you have the sunglasses has been seated throughout the entire movie, the one pair of sunglasses that are changing hands back and forth between the two guys, where then you have that simplicity, the cleanness of the sunglasses on the diner counter, and knowing like. We don't even need dialogue here We can cut straight to the precinct. Yeah Yeah finale is McCarran Airport and generally tense but also funny again the magic trick of the movie is it's both and just this very Now I'm called Harry Reid Airport. It's the tapes now. Yes. Yeah, we got the tapes if we get them Yes. Yeah, we got the tapes if we get them

Surround's got the disk. It's these fake, you know, it's like odd the Duke has disks that'll put you away You know, like, you know, he just has to convince him to essentially want these this fake evidence Whatever This and this and Cardo's like, okay right Let's see if it happens But it becomes such a tiny little act of if you can in a public space Get serrano to personally hand you these discs with the verbal understanding that they will be destroyed We have him and that's all you got to do is get him physically there to shake your hand and say that and it's right It's Dorfler who breaks the wire by bumping into Jack Yes, so Jack has to literally just yell like he's got the discs right like that's the fun tense

Chaos of the final because Serrano's guys are poached the guys are proposing out Marvin doesn't get it, but even before that you've got like the conversation between Jack and Serrano where it's like Serrano is riding so high on the hog. And he's so good at this. He loves that this guy is like broken. Look at what I have made you into. Now I'm gonna just enjoy this and Jack's gotta stand there and eat it.

Even though he knows ultimately, like I've got this plan to get him, cause it still hurts. As you said, and I agree with you, David, at this point he's got the midnight run tan. He looks so fucking cool with the dust and the dirt. The makeup is actually really well done, because it, right, the way it builds is sort of slow.

And then by the end you're like, well, I know why he looks like that, yeah. But if you're Serrano and you come in in like a fucking silver suit and you look like a trillion dollars, and then this guy rolls in and like, looking like fucking pig pen, you're like... It's still hot though. Yeah, but within the world of the movie... I know, I know, I know.

Yes. It's just a beautiful, like, non-action setup to an action movie finale that couldn't be more exciting. And is just like, how many game pieces are now on the board? Every thread's coming together. You set up all these things crashing into each other, they crash into each other with perfect amount of chaos.

Correct. The thing about the thing we already discussed, the end of the film, where Walsh of course realizes, I can't bring this guy in, is it does feel almost symbolic at this point. As you've said, the Duke is no longer probably in trouble even if he gets brought in, right? Like he's not gonna be targeted by the mob anymore, right?

Because they have bigger charges against him now. Yeah, it would be too dangerous, right? All this, right? But it's still just the principle of like, even though they've sorted all this out, he still can't put him in jail. It's enemy and my enemy is my friendship. Like you shouldn't go to jail.

I agree with you, you know? also, we've been through so much together, and you saved my life, and you witnessed, like, the lowest moment of my entire life, and you didn't say anything, and it's all these things. Yeah. It is real, like, dudes rock. I get the sense in this movie... People would rather do a midnight run than go to therapy.

True. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, like, nine years since he left his wife and his daughter, right? I do not think he has spent this much concentrated time with anyone since then. That's the sense I get. He's usually doing like bounty jobs. Do you think he has like a really clean and put together apartment? Absolutely.

Jack Walsh. Yeah. Got like an Eames chair. It's important of course that this emotional decision is made before the then like crucial exchange of gifts. Watch to Mardukas, belt with 300 grand in it to Jack. There's the great like sort of look at that. We get on the plane, they're on the plane.

Duke is just sort of sitting there in silence with this energy of like, I'm walking to my death. I can't believe he's actually bringing me in, but also I kind of get it. Right. There's just no words exchange. They get off the plane. He picks up the phone, yells at Pantaleon. Oh, he's like, you hear him say hello, say goodbye.

Cause I'm not fucking turning him in. Right. And like, I love how the other guys Gotten arrested already. Yeah, and he's so defeated right? Yeah, and grodin is just like beside himself And then the added element of kindness of giving him the watch Well, and then to end the kindness and also like the healthiness of like, okay, I'm letting it go right and Like in De Niro's money is like I'm in a movie. This is the perfect ending. I walk away I give him the watch

How could it get better than that and groan you almost sense? He lets him walk far enough away, right? Yeah, what's not he's hiding behind the fucking phone booth. Yeah, and he's so color-coded come over Come over here. Like he's so subtle about it. He brings him in so close, he takes off the belt where he's had all this money strapped to his person. Alan, you've thought about this. Yes. What's he going to do with all these thousand dollar bills? Which is basically like, monopoly, like fake money.

This is the beauty of the final line of the movie. Go ahead. Of course, can you break a thousand? Yes. What are you, a comedian? Get out of here, you bum. And that's George Gallo, by the way. And Martin Bress, we should mention, is the airline counter guy who sells Marv in the ticket, smoking or non-smoking.

Take a wild guess. No, I think what I love about it is you're like, what a beautiful fairy tale ending. And then he walks out and it's like, this guy can't spend the money. Does he even have a bank account to put this in? He doesn't know how to do that. He's going in a shoe box under his bed.

What the fuck do you do when you go to the bank and you're like, I'd like to deposit $300,000 in cash. Like the bank isn't just like cool. I bet Western Union could help him out. No, and the kinds of people who could help him with the money are the exact people he doesn't want to be in league with. It's the right amount of success for him.

He could find a Jimmy McGill who would set him up with a restaurant, but he doesn't want to work with a Jimmy McGill. He might. He's gonna walk down the road for a little bit. On the other hand, if he was to meet Mike Ermentrout, I think they would get along. They would. They're similar. And Mike could hook him up with some money laundering,

you know, through the Fring organization. As long as you don't talk to Mike Goriandor. Which is still in comedy bang-bang bits now. Incredibly funny bit. It is a perfect ending. I don't know how long it took George Gallo in that hotel room of his to come up with it, but he did a great job.

But that final conversation, I'm sitting there watching it on my fucking 10 inch childhood bedroom TV, and I'm getting choked up. And I'm like, God, I'm invested in what these two guys mean to each other. And the two of them play that scene so beautifully. How much money is it? And what's the final amount? It's 300,000.

It's in the name of 300,000. And then De Niro goes, it's a pretty good neighbor. He does like full De Niro, the way you would parody him. It's got me, it's a pretty good name. But he's so pleased with himself when he gets a joke off That's another thing. I love in this performance. Yeah, right. He's not a comedian per se he's right It's like Polly Walnuts anytime he gets a good joke off. He wants to make the world know. Yeah, that tone. Yeah, that's all yeah

And then yeah, he is like God what a miracle. Here I go he starts to walk away. He looks back Duke's already gone Yeah, where's he going? We're never gonna see him again. There's the moment cuz they have the line of like in a different life We probably still would have hated each other you think the movie is going for the corny thing and it's like no actually if they Had met in different circumstances. They probably would have turned each other off immediately Yeah, only in these circumstances would they have spent this much time together and grown a begrudging appreciation. And you get the sense, for me at least, my read has always been that when De Niro looks back at him, it's almost like he's realizing, like, we should stay in touch.

Like, maybe you should be my friend. Maybe we have built something here. And he's gone and he just goes like I guess that was what it was Walks out tries to get a cab They won't break his money and he just fucking zips his jacket up goes roll the credits. Guess I'm walking But there's the one good moment right before that when he turns to the sky cap and he asks him for the time Yes, and he's like I would have made it like to him. That's what matters is you know, I would have made Professional but he only clocks that when everything else is settled. Yes, that's I mean right you have to have the emotional Conclusion before you have the practical conclusion. Yeah, that's fine, and then fucking Danny healthman whale

Is there anything we're not done obviously you. We'll do the box office game. We'll talk about the wonderful sequels. That's not true. How have we gotten this far, David, without discussing the smoking? I don't know. Please go ahead and discuss the smoking of Midnight Run, these cigarettes.

Well, Ben, if I can share a confidence, please. Tell me what happened when you and I were talking off mic before this began. I mean, this movie movie as a former smoker is really, really hard to watch. It makes it look like sucking on a butt is real good. It's not just that it makes it look damn good. It's that he's doing it pretty much at every new setting

that he's in. It's constant. It somehow looks, I don't approve of smoking and I don't think people should do it. Yeah. Looks like it's what's made him handsome and cool. I hate to say it. David, I agree with you.

It's like the more he takes in the smoke from the cigarette, the hotter and cooler he gets. Every time I watch this movie. Obviously there's plenty of movies where that's the vibe, but this is kind of the epitome. I watch this movie and I consider buying a pack. Just a pack of heaters. it's working for him so hard But you know Marvin smoking constantly mostly smoking constant. Yeah, like just that work is any kind of camera. I don't want to be Marvin

The thing is like It's like you buying the jacket over you're not gonna look any cool You're not gonna enjoy it or look cool. Like it doesn't you know, it's all movie magic like But he looks fucking great. Yes. It's just like, it's the most smoking like I had ever seen to that point in a movie. It's just constant.

It's a very grownup movie. Now these are all both kind of juvenile men, actually, if you sit down and think about it. But these like smoker, diner eating, coffee drinking dudes, especially when yeah, you're a teenager. You're like, yeah, these are like grownup guys. It's an R rated movie almost exclusively for its use of the word fuck.

Yeah, there's no real violence in it apart from a lot of rasslin'. No. Well, I mean, a lot of guys getting punched in the face, but like no one. This is not R rated stuff. I think the only people who die are the anonymous hit men

on the helicopter. They do die. Right. And they're also smoking everywhere. Planes, trains, buses. You used to be an automobile on the plane. I don't know if you know this. I do know this.

And I find it insane. Just like I have my baby, and I'm smoking right next to it. No, Ben, there were smoking sections and non-smoking sections. Oh, of course. And of course, there was no way that in a tight cylinder, the air from the cigarette smoke could make its way to the rest of the plane. My dad on a plane, because by the time I was a kid smoking, he was banned on planes. It was the most insane shit in the world.

The fact that he had to go seven hours without a cigarette, like, he would like eat like gum by the like a snowball. He would like, you know, be mashing the gum together. Bigly true? Sure. Yeah. I have a very fond memory of watching Danny DeVito on the Rosie O'Donnell show. Sure. Talking about, I guess shortly after the transition had happened the rules had changed smoking was was

sort of mid 90s I feel like that finally is done and he was a big cigar aficionado and he took out a cigar and Was trying to light it and the flight attendant comes up and goes, excuse me, mr Vito, this is no longer allowed on the plane and he's just like I really I really want to smoke this thing or whatever and out on the plane and he's just like I really I really want to smoke this thing or whatever and at some point he pitches to her if I go down the plane and I ask every single passenger individually oh like can I smoke is it okay yeah if everyone says okay and if a single person says no then I won't do it it's like sure and he went down the aisle and was Dane DeVito like charmed the socks off of them like right used his movie star wattage in his fame took pictures fucking whatever He gets to the last row and there's a gruff guy sitting there

He's like, excuse me sir cigar and the guy goes on one condition that you got one for me as well And DeVito and this stranger smoked on the plane big fucking Havana's or whatever Crazy cuz cigars are so stinky they do be smelling better friggin shimny's of tobacco my memory of Davido delivering that line the Rosie O'Donnell show was equivalent to the the audience. Koosh balls flying. And DeVito tells a good story. Yeah. Jersey's Elm. Elmos being tickled. This film, Elmos being tickled. It was the 90s.

The crowd, they were tickling Elmos. I got a couple more things. Please. Okay. One of them is I've written about this movie so much over the years. You can read Alan's writing on it, obviously. Yes, including at RollingStone.com. When I think I wrote about like the 15th anniversary, I don't remember now, I got an email from someone

who was in active development on a sequel, and he sent me that draft of the script. And this is the one where the Duke's son is in trouble and Walsh has to come save him. 2010 they announced this. It was sort of the, like, Brett Ratner, I think, was attached. At one point, it seemed to be developed as...

Like it was going to be older De Niro and a new younger four. Like Jonah Hill, something like that. Was it called Zoey Jogg? It was called, I believe it was going to be called Another Midnight Run, even though they used that title for one of the Christopher MacDonald movies. Which we also have to talk about. Yes. We'll talk about all of this.

We have another hour. No, we don't. Yeah, we do. No. I believe the intention was Jay Bearishow. Okay, yeah, I can see that. And he was going to play the Duke's son. Yeah.

And Groton, because Groton, like- I mean, he has the energy to understand that. Groton at that point didn't want to, like, work outside of- like, he lived in Connecticut, so he wouldn't work any further than New York City. Groton did 10 years with no on-camera appearance. And then quietly started stepping back in, but would do small stuff. And did like Louis did while we're young, did that weird movie, The Axe.

Yep, the exact same. Wasn't doing a lot. Famously turned down, like they wrote a thing for him to be in the later Muppet movies reprising his role from Great Muppet Caper. And they were like, he's like, I don't want to get on a plane. These things go down. They're too big. big but yes they he was gonna play some small part it was mostly gonna be the Duke Sun and apparently was being pushed forward by De Niro being like I love Midnight Ron right that's the character I've always

wanted to play again I'm probably at the final window of me being a non-depressing age to be Jack thank God this never happened agree. I assume the script you were handed was mediocre. Honestly, I'm not sure I finished it. Not necessarily because it was terrible, but at a certain point I got distracted and I was not excited enough to go back. But the thing I remember is Jack is still running the coffee shop. It's not going well, and so he's taking skip tracing jobs to help keep the coffee shop going.

And Denise is like in LA helping him run the coffee shop. So they have at least somehow repaired their relationship. Yes, that's the main detail from it. But you know, that's a problem with any sequel, especially long running sequels, it has to be like, how do we get them back to the status quo? It's like, no, I like imagining all possibilities

for a movie like this. I don't wanna think about what Jack's actually doing. Well, I'm gonna build up to my pitch in a second. But then two years ago, they announced that a new version was being developed with Regina Hall. Yes, with De Niro just producing or something. But that was announced 2021. Okay, three years ago.

So my guess is it has not really moved forward. I will say Regina Hall Hall in, like, Support the Girl specifically... I love Regina Hall. ...you could see that energy translating over to Jack Walsh. Or Jack Walsh-type character. You can't make this movie again. You can make a movie like it.

Don't call it Midnight Run. Exactly. This is a formula movie. You can make a formula movie. Can I give you the one sequel pitch that I think would work and I think I've said this to you Alan Okay, please I think the one movie you could make and you probably have a five-year window before you can't make this again Is to do the movie about his daughter, and I'm not saying the legacy cool sense I think that scene is so affecting and I think there is something to setting up that character decades later where it's just like,

she went into a similar field to try to understand the father who abandoned her. Right. But even then. And you make him, to some degree, the figure that she needs to hunt down. Right, yeah. So the status quo, like the way you don't make it,

oh, you're stripping him back down to the status quo is just like what we were just saying This guy's not gonna know how to fucking set up the restaurant, right? I don't want the movie where he's like I started the restaurant it went under or I do this on the side You know, but a movie where this guy was like I left behind bounty hunting But I also wasn't gonna go back to being a cop again I had this money didn't want to do with my fucking self and there's some set of circumstances He and the daughter reunite. I'm like that, didn't know what to do with my fucking self. And through some set of circumstances, he and the daughter reunite.

I'm like, that's the only angle to a sequel that I think could work. And enough time has passed that the daughter could be played by a female movie star of the right age. Yes. That's my take. You know, fine. But also, this movie never needs a sequel.

Don't touch it. Now, Christopher McDonald, that's something Except for, of course, another Midnight Run, Midnight Run Around, and Midnight Run For Your Life. The three television films starring the great Christopher McDonald, a man I have no beef with. We love.

Who looks really fucking good in the leather jacket. He does look good. I mean, I've not seen these films. I assume you have, Alan. I saw at least the first one, which is the one with Jeffrey Tambor and Cathy Moriarty. Right, which sounds like a pretty good time Yeah, and then I'm not sure I watch the other ones

It's also funny to have Dan Hedaya as Eddie because like, you know, those are two very interchangeable guys in the 80s This is shooting McGavin. We're speaking of Ben shooter McGavin from Happy Gilmore Lyle Manley from the Iron Giant a buttoned up waspy villain right from 1 billion movies. He's in hacks these days But a very different energy from De Niro and this is part of a thing that I believe is called the Universal Action Pack The action pack there was that the Dark Man sequels come out of that I think so there was vanishing Sun which was martial arts show. Yes, there was bandit Yeah, it's a smoky in the bandit spin-off where it's just like a hot young guy driving a Trans Am Right.

Who did not have a mustache, so I'm not even sure what the point of it was. They basically made a bunch of short made-for-TV action movies, and they'd make several sequels at a time to properties that Universal had that would then air into like syndication. Syndication. It was a wheel, like the thing where Columbo was airing along with Macmillan and wife and MacLeod and all these other things. So it's like there are three midnight run sequels made by TV people that feel like they're halfway between being actual movies and being a small amount

of episodes of a midnight run TV show that never happened. Weird. Yeah, but they're called another midnight run, a midnight run around. It's from a bygone era where you would do that. Like, let's make the TV version of this. No one's gonna care. Right. You know, like it won't hurt the movie because like it's just airs on TV and then everyone forgets about it. And it's not on network at a time when that mattered.

You know, you'd see it on like a Saturday afternoon. And for all those guys, like as you said, a lot of those actors are very established at the time. It's like easy paycheck. Who fucking gives a shit? Yeah. I'll do midnight run around But yeah, I think it does speak to how quickly this movie much like Dark Man like did pretty well in theaters and then probably Exploded within two years they were like wow This is outselling most of our bigger films at blockbuster right the ratings for this on cable continue to be really strong I do want to you know. yes, this movie only made about 38 domestically,

like another 43 internationally, and that's nothing compared to Beverly Hills Cop. But it was a solid hit. It was actually a really big deal for De Niro, who is, for all his esteem, never seen as a box office draw. This kind of helps him in that regard. And it defines his movie Zer persona. It changes the next 20 years of his career.

And it did get great reviews. But like what you were saying before, everyone's like, this is a really great example of like a fun Hollywood movie. Top shelf entertainment. Exactly. It was not canonized as deeply upon release as it would very quickly. Like you guys talk about all the time,

we didn't know how good we had it. Yeah, no, and I think it's a fascinating case. I feel like we've talked about before, David, the case of people making the follow-up to a best picture winner that at the time is seen as a bit of a disappointment, and then with distance, everyone's like, that was the good one.

The sort of like talented Mr. Ripley effect. No disrespect to English patient, but you're like, that's his most beloved movie now. These days it is, yes. At the time people were like, Mangella couldn't quite recreate it. Right, too dark. Right.

And on a sort of action comedy level. Why isn't it about like an English Patient of some sort? I really like that element of his prior film. But on an action comedy level, this movie has that exact relationship to Beverly Hills Cop, where they're selling it as like, finally, the new movie from the director of Beverly Hills Cop. It's been four years! And people are like, good! And it does well.

Yes! And then now, 25 years later, everyone's like, that's a masterpiece. That's the movie that everyone studies. It's a definitive 80s Hollywood movie, especially, I feel like. Like, when you're considering that era of filmmaking. The box office, however, July 22nd, 1988. Ben, do you have something to say? You just made some noise on the desk.

Oh, sorry. Just the chain on my handcuffs. I forgot, of course, the chain. You do probably love that, but it has one. Yeah, I do actually. If you can get them off, you can like tuck one of them into your pocket and then the other end of the pocket of the cardigan. Alan, when I was in high school,

I wore both cuffs of a handcuff on one side of my wrist as like a bracelet and that way. And what was the response to that? Did everyone high five you? Wild applause. Homecoming king, what are you talking about? Everyone just went like, what's the thing this week Griffin?

It was a lot of that. What's the thing you're doing this week? Look, look, I can't judge. I grew out like Jason Priestley sideburns my senior year of high school. Yeah. I did this for a while. As did I. You can see it in my high school yearbook.

Right. The film opens number five. Now, this is not an era where it's like absolutely the opening weekend is make or break, but still we're talking the late 80s. The film opens number five. Now, this is not an era where it's like absolutely the opening weekend is make or break, but still we're talking the late 80s. It's a slightly underwhelming opening, but it had really good legs.

It's opening number five to $5.5 million. So it's fifth on this list. Number one, Griffin. Maybe the best film of 1988. Maybe the best film of 1988. We've covered it on this podcast. It was discussed earlier in this episode. It is the film Die Hard?

Nope. That is number three, which is another argument for the best film in 1988, as is Midnight Run. Was it part of your spreadsheet? Part of my acting nominees, for sure. Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Who Framed Roger Rabbit? It's fifth week of release.

We did the Die Hard box office game recently, but this is, some radio really was like, fucking, it was good. You couldn't miss that. How could you have those three movies in theaters at the same time? Insane, yes. So, good movie that we like?

Great movie, that's a masterpiece. Number two at the box office, another big hit of the year, huge hit of the the year starring a guy Martin Bress just worked with It's an Eddie movie. It is it's not Beverly Hills Cop 2. No, which I think it might have already come out of right Is that 87? Yeah, I think that's right. Look it up. I'm not sure. Oh, yeah on that. It's this Golden Child It is 87. No, it's not Golden Child good. So it's yeah, this is like one of those It's coming to America. It's Coming to America? It's Coming to America.

Which is great! Roger Ebert, Coming to America, Die Hard, and Midnight Run are all in the top five. Is Coming to America Eddie's best movie? The highest level of intelligent commercial filmmaking. Wait, what was your question, Alan? Is Coming to America Eddie's best movie? No, I don't think so. Some people do, though. I think 48 Hours and Beverly Hills Cop

and Trading Places are all better. I mean, Bowfinger is wonderful, but that's more of like a Steve Martin vehicle. I think it's coming to America. I think that's my answer. I like Trading Places though. Me too, for all its flaws. Okay.

Number three is Die Hard, as we said, doing really well. Jesus. And actually, this is kind of Die Hard's first wide week. Okay. It opened limited the week before. Number four is a, we've done this so many times, it's the fifth in a franchise. It's Police Academy.

No. It's a franchise that often comes up on the box office game because there are five of them. Okay. But they don't have numbers. Oh, Jesus Christ. It's Dirty Harry. It's a Dirty Harry. And you can never- You usually remember the names.

Yeah. You just don't remember the order. Jim Carrey lip syncs to Guns N' Roses in it. He sure does. Jim Carrey is actually- Oh, it's the Deadpool. The Deadpool. Okay. Well, that's the one that's easier for me to guess.

It's the fifth. The last one is the Deadpool. Yeah. It's the one that knows it's the last Dirty Harry movie. It's the one where the last one is the Deadpool. Yeah, it's the one that knows it's the last dirty Harry movie It's the one where he's really exhausted. I can name all of them, but the middle one It goes what it's dirty Harry Magniforce something sudden impact Deadpool the middle one is either the enforcer or the gauntlet One of those no Different the gauntlet is a different good. Okay Gauntlet is a different good Clint movie. It's the Enforcer. That always sets me up that there's Magnum Force and the Enforcer.

Well, you know what? Hollywood was doing just fine. Number six at the box office is a re-release of Bambi. Number seven, interestingly enough, is New This Week, Big Top Pee-wee, the fairly unsuccessful Pee-wee Herman sequel. Deeply weird movie. Number eight, also new this week, another big failure sequel, Caddyshack 2. Oh, really? Back to the shack.

A really bad movie. Back to the shack. I've never seen it. Caddyshack 2 is one of, it's similar to Fletch 1, sorry, Fletch 2, Fletch Lives, sorry, that's what it's called. Where it's like amazing how uninterested people were in it. Correctly, it's a bomb. Right.

But Chevy was the only one who returned. Chevy returns, you have Ackroyd basically as the Murray type role. They went lateral on everyone, where it's like Ackroyd's replacing Murray, Jackie Mason's replacing Rodney Dangerfield. Robert Stack is replacing Ted Knight. Right. Jonathan Silverman replaces, what's his face? Why, by fucking forgetting his name. Oh, Knight. Right. Jonathan Silverman replaces. I couldn't forget Knight. What's his face? No. Why, by fucking forgetting his name.

Oh, Knight had died. The guy who plays Danny Noonan. Yes. Michael O'Keefe. Michael O'Keefe. Oh, sorry. I love Michael O'Keefe. Oscar nominee? But it's like four lateral casting shifts. And then Chevy is the one who still shows up.

Because that's probably why the others are staying away. And Chevy could not look more bored. Like it it's the most bored in a career of... Chavie Chase? Phone in a performance in a film? It's a real jury duty, like... I once spent two and a half hours with you guys talking about Chavie Chase phoning in a performance. This is far worse than that. Yeah, to which our listener said,

where are these guys getting this take that Chavie Chase is unpleasant to work with? Where is their backing for this? Number... I've never heard such a thing in my life. Nine... is big. Chase is unpleasant to work with. Where is their backing for this? Number? I've never heard such a thing in my life. Nine is Big. How would Big have been with De Niro?

A back. Could he have been? Famously a role he pursued. We talked about it in this episode. And I would love to see it, but obviously Big is a pretty perfect movie. Yeah, Awakenings feels like the better Penny Marshall collab.

Big, by the way, a film we now have to cover, since you've convinced most of our Reddit that we're covering Penny Marshall immediately. I thought it was funny to troll everyone and saying that we were doing Penny Marshall next, and now people are like, I don't get why it's a joke. Why is Marshall not on the schedule? I don't, like, what, he confirmed it.

Well, now he's upset us. This reminds me, obviously... Oh, now he's upset us. This reminds me, obviously... Oh, now he's upset. Sorry, Alan. Go ahead. Number ten, Bill Durham. Okay. Well, speaking of... Okay, if you're doing Penny, you gotta get a female guest to do a League of Their Own, but basically any other underdog sports movie, please, like, reach out to me. That's the other thing.

If you do the David S. Ward miniseries, I'm obviously doing Major League. Ben's always. I mean, I've been pushing for that for a while now I mean at least we got it to the king. I mean would you well that's true. Would you do Shelton? No, okay. I don't think so. It's it's dangerous though the idea of doing a King Ralph episode It's the reason we put it on the schedule a bunch of times and pushed it off What's the Shelton because if you come for the plane you better not miss I think bull Durham is the Shelton black check No, that's the guarantor. What's the Shelton blank check? Because if you come for the king, you better not miss. I think Boulderm is the Shelton black check.

No, that's the guarantor. That's his first movie. Isn't it Blaze? Maybe it's Blaze. Or Blaze or Cobb. Or Cobb. Yeah, those are both. But Cobb is one of those movies where you're like, but no, that's like a movie Hollywood

would want to make, right? Biopic of a famous ballplayer. It's just that that movie's fucking weird. Yeah. And has contributed to this somewhat odd myth of Ty Cobb being the most evil person who ever lived. But also fucking Tommy Lee Jones accepting the Oscar for fugitive with the hand. And Baldwin for a reason, yes, this is for a role. Fred Mertz.

But I think the problem with doing Shelton is just like Hollywood Homicide and fucking just getting started like this sort of end of his career. What? No, you say it's like it's a bad thing. But I think when we reach the end of his filmography, in many ways, it's just getting started. I want to get that joke out before you said that. I have to pee very bad.

I do too. Wow. Okay. Competition. United front. I'll let you go first. I've been holding it in, you know, again, I'm a professional. Yes. Well, OK, competition. United Front. I'll let you go first. I've been holding it in. Again, I'm a professional. So have I. Well, listen, we are going to say something.

It's been a long episode. I just want to say something here at the end. Ben is still handcuffed. And now that he's doing this, kind of like putting his hands up, it actually looks like he's in trouble. He's not doing a real movie poster pose. It's kind of like Swedish chef gestures. All right, Ben, what do you have to say for yourself?

My clothing brand, congratulations. Of course. Okay. It may not have been a great idea to do an unsanctioned crossover with Friendly's restaurant. It's not really a crossover when it's just your idea and they don't know about it. But yes, it's sort of like the Alfonso Mosley being in witless protection. Right, a crossover by force, right? I Thought they were gonna be into it right apparently not but did you need to get the courts involved?

No, okay But I'm gonna figure this out. Okay. Is this a running thread now across multiple episodes? I weirdly late leaned back from the microphone so I could play my invisible sax into it like I had to position it. What's the matter with me? It wasn't a volume issue. It was like, well, clearly there's not the clearance. I got to get the mic right on that thing. We have finished discussing the Neyron band.

If anyone knows a big lawyer, just let me know. 245, 248. What the fuck are we doing here? This is a failure. It's not a failure to go... It's good. It's fine. Like, the ones that are too long, it's not because we discussed the movie more, it's because we did a lot of other bullshit. That's always true.

Like, if Alex Perry comes on, God bless his soul. I love him coming on, but we have a lot of other bullshit. Yeah. That's always true. Right. Like if Alex Perry comes on, God bless his soul. I love him coming on. But like we have a lot of like tangents to sift through. He has to explain weird nicknames he'll never explain. Like, you know, like there's a lot of like stuff. Like I reimagined a lot of their like different desserts and like the logo. Yes, you did a good job.

It wasn't enough to leave. I'm going to go to the bathroom. It's good practice. David, I'm just speaking as a listener of the show's good practice. Damn, you're in the bathroom. David, I'm just speaking as a listener of the show as well as a guest who has a lot to get done in his life that podcasts help get him through. I'm so glad that we do nice long podcasts and people enjoy them. But they're not long enough.

For fuck's sake. They're very long. They're extremely long. I won't have this. Alan was in the hospital and he called me and he said, they're keeping me here overnight. Can you put out a 12-hour episode ASAP? Yeah, I was in the hospital like 12 times in the last two years Don't inflate our numbers Anything you want to plug well again, I've got a book it's called

Alan, anything you want to plug? Well, again, I've got a book. It's called Saul Goodman versus Jimmy McGill, the Better Call Saul complete critical companion. Sure. One of my favorite TV shows ever. Coming out from Abrams Books in February, around the 10th anniversary of Better Call Saul's premiere. You can pre-order it now.

And pre-orders always important for books. Hey, yeah. There will be a link in the episode description. Thank you, Ben. I appreciate that. At Rolling Stone, I've got a sub-stacked newsletter called What's Alan Watching. Just, you know, sort of, if you don't want to be...

I've been reading some version of What's Alan Watching since I was like 15 years old. At this point, a legacy brand. Yes. Stolen, getting back to Eddie Murphy, stolen from an unsold pilot. Yes, yes. I am almost certain... Which is fascinating, that thing.

...that when I was a teenager, if I typed S into my browser, it would complete. Seph and Walled up, BoxBot.com. Just to let you know, Alan. I appreciate that, David. And yeah, so if you want to follow me and don't want to be on any social media, because why would you want to be on social media at this point,

the newsletter is free, it's got links to everything I write and other just goofy stuff that I'm thinking about, and yeah. Wow, it's still up. I'll plug Empire Bale Bonds. It's got links to everything I write and other just goofy stuff that I'm thinking about and yeah. Wow, it's still up. I'll plug Empire bail bonds. Hopefully that might help my case with them. They're pretty mad at me. David's taking his headphones off in protest.

He's this fair weathered friend. Peeing while I do the outros. He always finds a way. His solidarity always crumbles during the outro. The real heavy lift of the show. The hard work. Anyone can host a podcast. Riff, bit, read from a dossier.

And on handcuffs. The outro though. Against your will. It's the thing that separates the amateurs and the pros. Ben's winking a lot. I realized we got through all this I didn't even bring up the fact that like because they were shooting it in order Martin breast

Basically tried to stage every scene sort of a character is traveling east They are facing to the right of the frame. Oh, yeah, if they're traveling west they are facing to the left of the frame It's fucking directional filmmaking. Yep, like this is the shit that George Miller rightfully gets praised for in the Mad Max movies, but is invisible craft that we all internalize, we process, we register in terms of it helping our enjoyment and the legibility of the film, and people do not shout it out because this movie's

greatest magic trick is just making itself seem very fun and still have an organic David Yes, I want you to look me in the eyes. Uh-huh As I say a couple of things that are very important. What's that? Thank you all for listening. Look me in the eyes You're in this Please remember to rate review and subscribe. Thank you. When was the last time you did that? When was the last time you did that? Keep going. We need to be done. We need to do ads. His subscribe finger is covered in dust He hasn't rated. I have a call with my editor. He hasn't rated

A podcast in a fortnight Please can we wrap up? we wrap up. Thank you to Joe Bowman, Pat Reynolds for our production coordinator. Thanks to Lee Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song, JJ Birch for our research. He texted us late last night and said, sorry the midnight run dossier is going to be a little late, but I've been sick and fighting the midnight runs. Ten comedy points to that. Been there. Tune in next week for Scent of a Woman with David Krumholtz. That's right! Krumholtz! We fucking did it. We called our intention at the beginning of the year.

We got the Krum! We got the Krum! Yeah, great app. Great app. A fucking corker. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit including our Patreon blank check special features where we're doing commentaries on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies. Is that correct? Yeah. Yes, we're not, we're not.

No, no, we are. We haven't cracked open the... No, no, we're deep in turtles. We haven't cleared the tabletop yet. Deep in turtles. Okay. We don't clear the tabletop till August. Oh, and what in August it will be.

That's right. And as always, try to learn. always, try to learn!