Blank Check with Griffin & David - The 13th Warrior with David Lowery

Episode Date: April 14, 2024

What if there was a 13th Warrior? What if there was a version of Beowulf so grounded in reality that the climactic battle with Grendel just kind of felt like a shrug? What if Antonio Banderas was the lead in Gladiator instead of Russell Crowe? We’re just asking questions! Filmmaker David Lowery makes his long-awaited return to the podcast to talk about John McTiernan’s Michael Crichton adaptation, a movie that should have kept the title of the original book - Eaters of the Dead. Such a sick title! Anyway, prepare yourself for plenty of Banderas talk, a loving deep-dive into the famous “Banderas learns the Viking language” scene, and a reveal of some Blank Check-related easter eggs in Lowery’s filmography (!). This episode is sponsored by: Storyblocks (storyblocks.com/check) Bombas (bombas.com/check CODE: CHECK) Indochino.com (CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

Blank check with Griffin and David Blank check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Merciful Father, I have squandered my days with plans of many things. This was not among them. But at this moment, I beg only to live the next few minutes well. For all we ought to have thought and have not thought, all we ought to have said and have not said, all we ought to have done and have not done, I pray thee, God, for a podcast."

That's good. For forgiveness, right? That's what he's, yeah. Correct. I liked it because it talked about saying stuff and not saying stuff. And at the end of the day, isn't that what podcasting is about? I was also thinking you could include, like, when he's introducing himself, with all of his names and who, you know, the lineage, you could have slipped podcast into that.

Look, doing the accent felt gamey to begin with. I don't think I also want to do... Antonio Banderas, the lineage, you could have slipped podcast into that. But yours was better. Doing the accent felt gamey to begin with. I don't think I also wanna do Antonio Banderas with a Spanish accent listing Muslim names. Yes. Right, right. Well. I consider doing the tagline for this film. Do you know what the tagline for this film is?

Go ahead. An ordinary man, dot, dot, dot. An extraordinary journey. Wait, he's not ordinary? No! The plot of 34 years is not like some Joe Schmo got mixed up with a bunch of Vikings. Like he's extraordinary. An extraordinary journey with the exclamation point too makes it sound like this movie is like Star Kid or something.

It's very fun. It's an adventure for the whole family. But also look at, I mean, this is, we'll talk about, a few movies have gotten dumped harder than this one. But this poster that comes out with this like, you know, bastardized title, right? The tagline's like an afterthought. And Tony Banderas in huge letters. Yes. Then almost equally large letters from the author of Jurassic Park and the director of Die Hard. That's what they had.

So they really leaned on that. And then the pull quote is just, exhilarating action adventure. I'm sorry, exhilarating adventure thriller, Entertainment Weekly. Which was like the one A-plus review from Lisa Schwartzbaum. Lisa Schwartzbaum loved that. But also that quote sounds more like a description

of what the film is trying to be than even praise. Completely, yeah. It's just a literal description of something you will experience perhaps. There is exhilarating action, adventure, thriller. There's also, there's two posters. One says, you know how, like, below the credits, it'll be like X on this date? So one says, Fear Reigns, August 13th.

Fear from, you know, the bean counters at all They were they were terrified the other one says defy fear October 28th. So I guess this these are two this must what was the original original release date do you anywhere it was 1998 We'll talk about okay. It must be in the in our dossier cuz yes I but because at what point does marketing go from be afraid to defy here No, I'm scared of you motherfuckers. I'm looking at this post you're talking about dude It's interesting also that the shift is like now

On this one from the author of Jurassic Park and the director of diehard is bigger than banderas his name almost bigger than the title and Then the tagline is almost hidden this poster Sucks the one that's just his eye in the boat Yeah It's kind of evocative, but it's not the kind of poster where I'm like I gotta see Antonio Banderas's eye in a boat I guess I'm like, I gotta see Antonio Banderas's eye in a boat, I guess. No. It is a great poster for a movie called The 13th Warrior

and not- That's kind of a good teaser poster. Finish your thought, David. Oh, it's not a good poster for a movie that should have definitely still been called Eaters of the Dead. Yeah. Which is a great title. Yeah.

Why didn't they call it Eaters of the Dead? I mean, in the dossier. Okay, we'll get to that. Yeah, I'm excited to find out. Let me answer just, because there are a lot of thoughts on it, but the anecdote that is told is that, like, Michael Crichton was watering his lawn,

and his next door neighbor was like, so, any more movies coming out of your books? And he's like, yeah, one of my early books they're making, Eaters of the Dead. And he's like, what is that, some sort of B horror monster movie? Right monster movie? Sounds like a zombie movie or whatever And Crichton like turned around called Disney and was like we need a classy title My neighbor thinks it sounds schlocky and I can see that but at the same time I'm like your book is called Eaters of the Dead

Yeah, you're selling everything on the fact that you wrote you write bestsellers. Maybe we should use the title of your book Yeah, yes. Also Eaters of the Dead is Razor, you know. A rad as hell title title of your book. Yeah. Also, Eaters of the Dead. Occam's Razor, you know? A rad as hell title. Yeah, it's cooler. 13th Warrior is nothing. Well, what if there were, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 11,

12 warriors? That's the unluckiest warrior. Right, yeah. It sounds like it's gonna be about an unlucky warrior, and it's like, is that what it is? It's like, no, he's just, there were 12, he's the 13th. Right, if it was Leslie Nielsen is the 13th warrior. I'd be like sounds funny Fall off the boat

It's got his little fart machine like when they're having their their important We've talked about how Leslie Nielsen's gravestone just says, let her rip. Yes. Does it? Yes, it does. Priceless. I mean, there are multiple stories of other celebrities meeting Leslie Nielsen and him activating a whoopee cushion or fart machine that he had on his person. Never lived home without.

Right. Like, literally. And he would do it in, like, interviews? That's why I discovered it was all the interviews. And that is incredible to watch. It's masterful. This is Blank Check. Go ahead.

This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography. These directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. Today we are talking about and these, you know,

it's hard to prove these things with Hollywood accounting and such. This by some accounts is the biggest money loser in the history of Hollywood. I feel like this movie was in record books at a certain point. At the time, I think it was definitively given that title. Now a couple, only two movies have maybe surpassed it.

I think it's now also hard. But adjusted for inflation, it maybe beats them. Yeah. Can you name the two movies that most people cite as losing more money than this film? Since this movie or? They're both in the last 10 years. No, okay.

Because I remember that was a big one, obviously. They're two huge Disney flops failed franchises. John Carter? Correct. It is by most accounting number one. And okay, Disney. I feel like this is obvious and I'm not thinking of it. Tomorrowland? Tomorrowland's in the top ten.

Makes sense. Not Alice. Alice 2 probably is up there, but not that one. I think it made some money. Those dead movies would kind of clear it. Well, but what's the one that cost so much? Uh, Lone Ranger? Correct. Yes. It's not so much that it cost so much, it's that it bombed so definitively as well. Yeah, but it also cost so much.

Yeah, well they had like a train. And famously cost like more and more and more where they're like, Disney Disney's like we will not green light this movie unless you hit this number and then they like we hit it and then they green lit it and then they instantly went past it. Correct. But yeah, this might be the greatest loser of all time. This is a mini-series on the films of John McTiernan. Today we were talking about the 13th warrior. Yes. What's the miniature is called? It's called a Pod Hard with a Vengecast. Oh, good. It had to be.

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. This is one of the few where you could have just called it podcast and gotten away with it. We could. In the big red letters. Yeah, that would have been nice actually. Yeah.

I'm just looking. All right. So like full disclosure, we're recording this episode out of order, and it is our first McHuner, McTermin episode. We've got a great guest returning to the show after a far too long absence. And so we're recording this one for in advance to take advantage of him being here,

running the marathon. How are your legs feeling? My legs feel great. David Lauer's here, the great David Lauer, What was your time? Friend of the show. Three hours and 49 minutes. Director of The Green Knights. That's really good here, the great David Lauer. What was your time? Front of the show. Three hours and 49 minutes. Director of the Green Knights.

That's really good. Ghost story. I felt pretty good about it. That's really good. Congratulations. That's impressive. Thank you. Last podcast hero?

Yeah, none of the other. I mean, just Die Hard with a Vengeance is one of the best titles ever. It really is. That's the era of you can't just put a number on it anymore like Batman Forever. Yes. Like everyone just trying to be like how do we solve the sequel title? And it didn't, it wasn't, it was pre-Colon. And shooz it up. Yeah. Like there were a few, there were very few titles with colons at that point. Colons? Too fancy. Who do you think you are? No, no, no. Next Karate Kid. I'm trying to think of other titles like that. But it also somehow, the title invokes the spirit of the movie, which is like McTiernan is back. There's a real punchiness to it.

This is kind of like the proper Die Hard sequel. Die Hard 2 was Die Hard on a Plane. This one is New Gruber, original director. We're dying hard with a vengeance. New Gruber, that's a great term. New Gruber. New Gruber, New Rules. The That's a great term. New Gruber. New Gruber, new rules. The Podmas cast affair? Yeah, well, looks like we have to change our plans. No, it's Podhard with Avenged Cast.

There's no- Podhard with Avenged Cast. There's no equivocating on this. I'm not equivocating at all. I'm thrilled with our title and I'm thrilled we're doing John McTiernan, but it is funny that we are beginning with the movie that exploded his career into smithereens. Correct. Not that he didn't then make more movies.

Yeah. But it is the end of him as a successful filmmaker, correct? The Loon-Tix, correct. Well, we'll get into it. It's three flops in a row. Did he do, what was between Die Hard with a Vengeance and this? The Thomas Crown Affair. Wait, I thought that was after.

No, this is before, that's before. Wait, I thought that was after. No, that's before. Well, they come out the same year. So I guess he made it after. He made it after and it came out before. It came out before. It's so weird. He makes Thomas Crown when he's basically

washed his hands of this movie. And Crichton's taken over and the studios have taken over. And then Thomas Crown comes out three weeks before this movie. It's like late July and this is early August. First week of August, last week of August. They're in the same month. It's my question not to spoil anything, but when we get to the box office game, I'm so curious to see because Thomas Crown was like a sleeper and it

Lured. We'll talk about it. They both have to be in the top 10 at the same time. We'll talk about it. Okay, we'll talk about it. But right. I guess you're right that he does. It's not like making this movie saps him of all his energies

because he makes Thomas Crown right after and it's a great film. It's successful and well regarded. He would have been beyond cooked if this came out. But it's because he has that that he can then make two more movies. And that Thomas Crown is doing well in theaters at the same time where they're like,

look, 13th Warrior just lost so much money, but the movie he made after that is making a profit for a different studio. The guy hasn't totally lost it. Um, but then roll a ball and that kills him. Roller ball kills him. Basic was didn't do well, but roller ball is the true bomb. Right. Cause they still gave him a big budget for roller ball.

And then that's another, this is held for years. It's constantly reshot and recut a fascinating career the scoundrels and perverts on letterbox saw you log this movie Sims yeah and said McTiernan confirmed and they were like first of all David just watch this shit second of all what possible reason would they have for starting with 13th Warrior well if you were logging any other McTiernan movie, we'd think it was confirmed. And this might just be David on some weird shit. But I messaged you, Lowry. Yes.

You were coming into New York to do the marathon. And I said, we should get you on an episode. We're doing McTiernan. And your response was, I think, I want to get the exact quote here. 13th Warrior is something I talk about with odd frequency for a movie I haven't seen since it opened. And this is true. Have you had this experience, Griffin?

Because I have. I have mentioned this movie to a couple of people since we decided on this podcast. I'm sure, privately in confidence. And they have said, like, oh yeah, love 13th Warrior. And I mean, I would be like, what, what, what do you mean? And they're like, well, I saw it when I was a kid and I was, it was kind of cool. Haven't seen it since.

It's not good. Have you had that experience? I haven't had one person say that. Two separate people like, oh yeah, 13th Warrior, that movie's fun. Can you dock some? Can you name them on mic? I would never. I expose them like that.

But I wasn't even mad at them. I was just sort of like, wait, have you seen it recently? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. I have like a memory of seeing that on TV when I was 12 years old and it having like swords and shit. Like, and I had a good time watching it. That's so weird.

I'm so fascinated by it. Like, I was like, what is this movie's cultural footprint at all? Like, am I the only person that ever thinks about it? And I will talk about why I do, but I do. Okay, well I want to know why you think about it. I'm very curious. I just want to introduce another plot thread for this episode. Go ahead. We have producer Ben Frisch filling in for Ben Hosley, had to miss this recording.

Hey guys. Great friend of the show, doing us a real solid here. Ben, you went into this recording thinking that this was a different movie? Yeah, so, when I was asked to come in, I thought that this was gonna be the movie Warriors of Virtue. Warriors of Virtue. In my head, I heard you guys... Which I also think about a lot.

I may have to watch Warriors of Virtue now. I need to watch Warriors of Virtue. I heard you guys talk about this movie at some point, and I just remember thinking, like, geez, John McTernan's career must have taken a really strange turn. Trying to do the kangaroo movie. Right. So I looked it up yesterday, and I was like,

oh, this is a totally different movie than I was thinking. And so then I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure out what the third... Or what War of Virtue was, and had to search for movies with Virtue in the title. And eventually I found it. And through, like, Warrior and then Kangaroo People. Yes. It's a fantasy film about a child. And a bunch of Kangaroo People who represent the elements that was funded by a Chinese toy company. I wonder, David, if the people who are saying to you,

I love the 13th Warrior, are making the same mistake. Uh, you never know. Because there were swords and shit in Warriors of Virtue as well. Yeah. Have you seen Warriors of Virtue? I've seen it. Theatrically. Wow. I thought you were about to say it. I've seen it many times. No, yeah. It's another, like 13th Warrior, I haven't seen it since it came out. But you think about it.

But I often am like, was that a real movie? Now just YouTube the trailer just to confirm that yes it was. It's just, because it's like Ronnie Yu obviously is like a big Hong Kong director in the 80s. like, was that a real movie? Now just YouTube the trailer just to confirm that yes, it was. Because it's like Ronnie Yu, obviously, is like a big Hong Kong director in the 80s. Is that his first English language film? It's his first thing. Obviously, it's sort of like that's a movie of the one foot

in both Hong Kong and Hollywood or whatever. Then he does Bride of Chucky, the 51st state, which no one remembers, but it's kind of fun. The Bride of Chucky rips. Bride of Chucky's great. And then Freddie versus Jason, which is like great, stupid fun. Yeah Bride of Chuckie rips. Bride of Chuckie's great. And then Freddie versus Jason, which is like great, stupid fun. Yeah, exactly.

And then fearless. Okay, that's him sort of going back to having one foot in each country. He was supposed to make Snakes on a Plane originally. Probably would have been better picked for it, yeah. Why didn't he? I don't know. I just, the 51st state... But that is why Samuel Jackson signed on for Snakes on a Plane originally.

Because he was a work of art for him. He's on set for 51st State, and he's like, what are you working on next, Ronnie? And he's like, this movie, it's called Snakes on a Plane, but they want to change the title. And he's like, I'll do it if they don't fucking change the title. They were gonna call it Flight 82. Correct. The equivalent of The Thirteenth Warrior.

It's just so funny yet. Yes, that's exactly the mistake they make on this movie. Like, there was this movie, this sort of like American British movie where they were like, who do people really want to team up right now? Sam L Jackson and Robert Carlyle. But guess who's wearing the kilt? Sam is. Because that's the whole thing of the movie is he's wearing a kilt for some reason.

And they're like drug chemists? Yeah, they come up, I think it's like Carlyle maybe comes up with some formula for a new drug or something. Because that's also a movie that had two different titles. I think it was released in the States. It was called Formula 51 in America because no one in America knows the joke of Britain being the 51st state. Sure.

I guess was the thinking. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that is obscure, because I did not know that. Yeah, that's a British joke. I don't... Wait, so Ben, did you... You saw Warriors of Virtue when it came out. And it haunted you. Well, I remember it being a movie I was scared to watch as a child. Because I was scared of a lot of movies.

And characters in costume, like mascot characters and stuff, like the Easter Bunny always scared me as a kid. And these are particularly scary looking creatures. Yeah, they're kind of... Unintentional. Anthropomorphized kangaroos. And I remember being scared of it and then watching it and then just thinking that it sucked and actually it was fine.

It wasn't scary. Yeah, yeah. Ben, here's the quickest version of what Thirteenth Warrior is. Okay, so you haven't watched it. No. It is Antonio Banderas playing a real Muslim man who exists, who is a writer, basically a travelogue writer, not to diminish his accomplishments.

His accounts of his travels survive. At that time, travelog logs were important. Right. Antonio Menderes is playing him, right? This guy's real, his texts survive. He did different sort of Anthony Bourdain, now I'm going to spend some time embedded with the Vikings, I'm going to go here, I'm going to do this. Michael Crichton, in the 70s, writes a book where he combines that character with Beowulf It's like what if when that guy was traveling around he hooked up with some Vikings and they were like we're gonna go fight Grendel you know ended up being part of the Bay of right like if like if Marco Polo was also like fighting dragons Yes, but it's got kind of the Crichton-y like, but I'm gonna make it more grounded.

It won't be monsters, it will be like monstrous people. What gave birth to the myth? Right, what was the actual thing they were fighting if it was not a monster? She's not a snake lady, she's a lady who hangs out with a lot of snakes. Right. And truly, it's an early Crichton work, right?

It's his fourth book. It's his fourth book, but he was already a big deal. Yeah. Because Andromeda, Strain, and Terminal Man, I think, were like big books out of the gate, right? He's already directing movies at this point by the time the book comes out. And he had written books under a different name as well. Right, that's the other thing.

He wrote a bunch of, have you read those? Yeah, I've read none. Have you read any Crichton? This is the fourth Crichton by name book. I was really into Congo when I was a little kid. Congo kind of? That makes so much sense. And then I know I read Jurassic Park,

but it's so mixed up in my memories of the movie that the movie kind of surpassed it. I famously had to put my Jurassic Park book under the bed because it scared me so much. So I read Eaters of the Dead. Which I think about all the time that I was just like under the bed. And then like months later I found it

and I was like, right, this had to go under here. Okay, I'm sorry, finish your, you read Eaters of the Dead yesterday. Oh, in a day? How long is it? Not only in a day, I read it. You also ran the marathon yesterday. It's only 280 pages.

At the Marathon Village. So you get to the, you take the bus to Fort Worth. Yeah, and then you just have to wait to start. And the book was short enough that I read the entire thing while waiting To start the marathon Olympic Village famously horny Marathon Village famously people reading Crichton's forgotten Crichton's yes It is Generally a thumbs up it is exactly the movie like like to the point where I'm like I'm already curious how movie. Okay. Like to the point where I'm like, I'm already curious how, like what Crichton did when he took over as a director, like what his reshoots were.

And I've got ideas, but reading the book I was like, this is pretty much just scene for scene exactly what's on screen. There's very little that is different. The other, I mean, citing this movie alongside John Carter, right, and the scale of Disney Flops, all three movies I cited produced by the Walt Disney Company, different eras. True. This, of course, was a touchstone. Correct. Released under Touchstone.

I mean, they're always touching stones in this movie. This is a very rocky movie. Hands, feet, blood's touching stones, stones touching blood. You read about the production of this movie and it feels like the type of production that then doesn't happen until 2011, 2012 and then becomes a pox upon the industry where they basically shoot the movie three times. Where they just like don't like it

and rather than let it go are just like, we're starting over again and so this is a movie that's basically greenlit at like 80 million dollars and then ends up costing somewhere closer to 160 I think it's greenlit at like 60 it then goes over budget to 80 in original production and then ends up costing somewhere between 160 and 180 in total And the most nuts stat is that, not stat, but not only do they do reshoots and does Crichton take over, but at one point there are dueling reshoot units.

We're on different stages in the same complex. McTiernan's doing reshoots and Crichton's doing reshoots and the cast is going back and forth between them. And they're like, we just need to get as much shit as we can to figure out which of these guys can solve the movie. We'll talk about that. But the movie doesn't... Well, anyway, yeah. No, no, no, go ahead. Yeah, you're right.

The movie does not feel like, oh my God, there's two movies in here. No. And the tone is switching so wildly or anything like that. But then again, Crichton is a decent director. I don't know if you've seen a lot of Crichton movies, but he's made really good movies. Westworld, Coma, Great Train Robbery.

Westworld is fun. Runaway, is that what the silicone's called? Uh, let's see. Runaway, yes. I never saw Looker, but I've seen Westworld, Coma, Great Train Robbery. And they're fun. But they are all, like, it's, you don't watch them

and think like, wow, this is like a master. A visionary director. Exactly. These are like well-crafted, fine, good storyteller. Yes, journeyman director basically, aided by his innate storytelling instincts and working with his own material. But he's not a visionary visualist.

Which is not dissimilar from McTiernan, I think. McTiernan's like the god of, I know how to communicate the geography of an action scene and make everything clear and spatial stuff will be clear. But yeah, I know also... He doesn't have a signature shot. There's no style for style's sake. It's all function. But has a much stronger visual intelligence.

He does, and I think, honestly, that is present in this film. Like, it's not like I watch this movie and I'm like, oh my God, like, this action is incoherent. Nothing's, you know, there are other problems I have with this movie. The action is mostly fine. Yeah. Would you agree?

I mean, I've talked tell-tales out of school. Yeah. It's not like incredible or anything, but like, it's not like I, it's fun. Yeah, would you agree? I mean, I'm telling tales out of school Yeah, it's like incredible or anything. But like it's not like I it's fun. Yeah, it gets the job done. I know what's happening No, there's even there's a quote that JJ pulled where McTiernan's like look There's no like lost masterpiece version of this if they gave me back the footage my cuts maybe ten minutes different right Substantially, you know He's like there's maybe ten minutes of stuff in there that I identify as Crichton having shot, and maybe 10 minutes of stuff that I shot that I would want back in the

movie. But also a lot of it is like stuff he shot under increasing pressure. Yeah. Right. As the budget started to escalate. Right. But, okay, but I, okay. Wait, wait.

I'm trying to... Step back, step back, step back. Before we, right, like, I just remember when this came out, I guess I was pro, I think But okay, but I okay wait wait trying to step like I Just remember when this came out. I guess I was pro I think I was really hot on Ben Darius because of his row Yeah, and obviously I knew him generally but like as a 13 year old I was like the guy from Zorro like wait, so this would have come out the same year It would have come out was supposed to yeah, but yes. But it came out the year after. Because Zorro also was delayed. Was it?

Obviously, it ended up working for everybody, but I think that had production difficulties and was originally a 97 movie that went to 98. And then this was a 98 movie that went to 99. Zorro had the thing where Robert Rodriguez got fired. Right. Sort of amazing to think about him directing it, like what that would have looked like. And then, so right, they got kind of stalled by that.

And then they brought on Martin Campbell and things were out of control and it went 10 million over budget. And it was sort of like, is this another cutthroat island? Like these movies don't work, you need so much practical shit, it's not. And then of course the movie comes out

and everyone loves it. Like it's one of the great movies. But everyone's like, thing, okay, Thirteenth Warrior, we can just get this across the line. We've got another Zorro in our hands. People would love to see Vikings snotting in a bowl. (*BOTH LAUGH*) It's... It's... I think...

I think that Thirteenth Warrior is doomed from the outset. Yes. I think if there was a is doomed from the outset. Yes. I think if there was a totally normal production of this movie with the same basic people involved, with no fucking weird reshoots or whatever, and no going well, they over budget, it still would not do well. No. Fundamentally, I just don't think people have a huge appetite for this story. That's what's wild about it.

They double the spend on this movie when you're just like, there's such a roof to how much you're ever gonna get out of this. It feels wild to treat this movie like it's the Flash or whatever and say, like, we need this to work. We will not quit on this thing. Right. It's such a cool idea. Even going back to Crichton's original concept of, like, what's the real story behind Bay

Wolf? I'm into that. That's great. I'm into the idea of the story being told. I'm into the lore of Vikings and whatnot. Are you going to adapt every single thing I read in my first year of college medieval studies class? This was my first year of college also. And I feel like it's on there.

Wait, this is also, is this the first time you've covered, technically, an adaptation of the same source material? Twice? Sort of. Yes, right? It has to be. I don't know. It's very close, like, event-wise to the plot of Beowulf. Oh, well, we've done two Star Wars-born episodes now. That's the other one.

That won't have come out in the time we're talking, Lowry, but will have come out. I'm trying to think if there's like a foreign American remake that we've ever done or anything. Fantastic Four episode. Oh, that doesn't count. Worst episode we've ever done. But yes, no, we are doing another Beowulf movie and another Beowulf movie that kind of like was like,

no, no, no, we can make Beowulf work as a modern blockbuster and Audiences were mostly like I don't really care But I mean look I'm just gonna serve you up the question not that you told me to ask you this right? Yeah But like wondering like why did why it does Lowry think about this movie still and talk about it and then watching it I just kept thinking the version of this I would want to see is the like Green Knight style version of it. The version of it I would want to see has a capped budget. Yes. Does not need to conform to certain expectations of like adventure blockbuster films at a certain

size. I now know having gone through the process of making a Green Knight that the capped budget would probably scare me off now. I don't know if I have the fortitude to go through that of trying to make a medieval or pre-medieval epic, but it does appeal to me. This type of storytelling, this type of myth-making and peeling back the layers of myth is always really interesting to me. And to a certain extent, I think every movie I've made to date has been sort of about peeling back some level

of legend to try to expose the fallacies within. That sounds very highfalutin, but that is kind of what I'm interested in doing. And watching this movie again, I was like, I wonder if this is one of the first instances of that that kind of planted that seed. Because I remember the scene of Bully Wolf, is that how he goes by in this? The Beowulf, the Beowulf Sergant, who when he dies, yeah, and just being like, oh, I'm witnessing a mortal character giving up his life

and passing into legend. And I thought that was captured very well. And that moment stuck with me where he just sits there and dying is like... an inherently pathetic act. It's just like a series of failures. I think all dead people are cowards. And watching the way in which people regard death is always what brings the poetry to it.

And I was like, this is a beautiful moment. It reminded me of Robert De Niro dying in heat. Like the idea of a character regarding someone else sitting down and dying. There's something very evocative about that. And so that stuck with me. But more than that, the thing that really I keep thinking about over the 24 years since this opened is the scene where he learns their language. Best scene. Or a really cool idea.

A really cool idea, executed fairly well. I now think you need to remake The Thirteenth War. The way you were just talking about it, or do we say the dead? Just do it. I guess you can never. No studio would touch it. This is the rare kind of bomb. The fact that they didn't use the original title. Yeah, I guess so. That's the only wiggle room to possibly make people not even realize it's connected.

I think you could get away with it. It's more interesting in the context now of Vikings, which I've not seen, but apparently was a hugely successful TV show. Very versatile. That went on and was moved from one network to another and has spinoffs. That and Black Sails, those are the two sort of Game of Thrones adjacent period, sexy, violent dramas that lasted for years with huge fan bases, despite no critical acclaim. And then it's really interesting to watch this now in the context of having seen the Northmen and which maybe didn't, I love it, it's a masterpiece, but maybe it didn't set the box office on fire, but did extremely well on VOD.

Like very, very, very, very well. Basically, like Focus have told me, and it sounds like maybe I've told you that that movie was like a sensation for them on VOD. Yes, completely. Like to their mild surprise, I think, yeah. I love that movie so much. As do I.

But one thing I love about it is Eggers' whole deal with all his movies, where he's like, this is sincere. Like, these are Vikings. They have Viking goals. Like, I am not making this for you. Like, he's trying to get to Valhalla. That's his goal. And indeed he does.

And he does, and in the end, I'm crying because I'm like, he's that crazy bastard, he got to Valhalla. Yeah, it's incredible. Truly, like, one of the'm crying because I'm like, he's that crazy bastard he got to Valhalla. Yeah, it's incredible. Truly, like, one of the rare movies where I was like, I have tears coming from my face. Like, usually I'm like, oh, I'm gonna cry, I can tell. Like, this is working me up. And instead, I was just watching it,

like, as he's going to Valhalla going, oh, my God, have you seen, you've seen The Northrend? I was rewatching it last night because I was... wanted to watch that funeral scene again, because it's the same, the same incantation, like the low, I see my father, low, I see my mother, like lifting the woman who's gonna be sacrificed up three times and I was like, oh, that,

my watch the 13th warrior is like, oh, that is literally, they just did, I mean, it's obviously a traditional Viking funeral. And I just wanted to see how Robert did it again. And then I just wound up watching The Northman because it's so darn good. I'm gonna go home and watch The Northman. Do you remember this being a movie

you liked when you first saw it? Or was it just that certain ideas in it stuck with you? Did you see it in theater? I saw it in theaters. I was pleasantly surprised by it when it came out. And so this goes into my... In high school, I got a job as a projectionist and saw from 96... No, 97 until 2004, I worked at a movie theater.

That was like... I was a career movie theater employee. I know that. And I think of you just running back and forth... Yeah. You've told me about it. I told the story, yeah. Right. Between all the... I think on our Sleepy Hollow episode... All the theaters, because they were all one long card or linked to all the rooms, right.

And so I was there when the Eaters of the Dead trailer came in and threaded it up and watched it and being like, ooh, this sounds pretty cool. And then obviously at that point, without the internet, any sort of release delays came through us from letters from the studio saying, this pool, these trailers, these movies aren't coming, pull this poster,

this movie's not coming. The first trailer had Eaters of the Dead as the title on it in your memory? It did, wild. It's on YouTube, so my memory of watching it was like, this trailer is scary. Yeah. The trailer, the title was scary.

Title's scary. I didn't know what it was, and the trailer, I just remember being, this is- Although I'm an Eater of the Dead sometimes, like a dead animal. That's fair. Fair. Don't brag about it. I'm not bragging. And I went back'm an eater of the dead sometimes, like a dead animal. Fair, fair. Don't brag about it. I'm not bragging.

And I went back, it's like the trailer's on YouTube. Yeah, I'm finding it. It's more just unpleasant. It's an unpleasant trailer. It's weird what footage they use. It's very dark. It's a lot of like torches and horses. It says, pray for the living.

I guess it's sort of like the monster people attacking. You're probably watching without sound right now, but the sound is really screechy and just kind of like off-putting. How did you guys go about rewatching this movie? Also, Antonio Banderas barely visible in this trailer. There's almost no... It's just all these riders with torches. Yeah, you see him in shadow for like five seconds at the end. We're gonna talk about the Bandera 7 Deluxe.

You watch it on iTunes. iTunes as well. Okay, I found the compression on iTunes and the quality of the video, which is listed as HD, but looked to me like a VHS, in a movie that's pretty dark, almost unwatchable. You found it almost, I didn't think it was that bad. Yeah, I don't remember having this problem.

It surely has not been I Ended up up rezzed from DVD firing up Express VPN our loyal sponsors on this show Because I saw that it was on Disney Plus and it was a better version Because I actually was like 20 minutes in finding it hard to make out the images interesting and it did look better on Disney Plus I don't know what the fuck was going on there if you guys had an okay time on iTunes. It was fine. Yeah, it didn't.

But it is dark. It is muddy. It is a dark movie that is not served well by basically being abandoned. Like, this movie's never gonna get restored, right? There's no, and there's also, the idea of spending more money on this movie might actually be like illegal, like in terms of accounting like

you can't the only source JJ could find to like pull quotes from the people who worked on it was there was a 2011 French blu-ray with an hour of new interviews and I cannot believe they got anyone to sit down to talk about this thing 12 years later but that France is apparently the only country that cares. I mean, Crichton liked it. Yeah. I'm glad he and he, you know, deserved to be happy. He had so few wins.

And it also is exactly the book. He's like, Oh, this is the book I wrote. Yeah, right. I guess that's all he. Here's what I, right. My, I just want to say about Crichton, obviously Jurassic Park. Yes. Sphere was my big one. That book rules. I recommend it to anyone.

I like that book so much that I like that movie a lot. Even though the movie is sort of like half-risable, I'm still just like, there's a sphere, like at the bottom of the ocean. It's kind of just compelling enough to me. So that was always... I want to read more Crichton. I've never read like the Andromeda String. I've never read like some of his like masterpieces. Perfect timing, he's got a new book coming out.

Isn't he dead? He is, but he had an unfinished book that is now being released. Yes, that's right. And James Patterson finished it. Is it the one that's like a Jurassic Park prequel or that's already been released? There's, he wrote like a Jurassic Park prequel set in the 19th century.

That feels like something that's already been released but I actually have the day. Cold. What the fuck was it called? I think that was released. Dragon Teeth? Yes, Dragon Teeth. But the other thing I always think is he was 6'9".

He's crazy. Famously tall person. I mean, obviously he created ER as well, or all shit like that. But like, he's 6'9". We're going to dig into this. Photo of him on the set of this Namelessly tall person there is I'm obviously created ER as well or all shit like that, but like well see six nine We're gonna dig into this but photo of him on the set of this movie I pulled up a production still of him directing a bunch of the Nordic Viking actors and it is bizarre to see him Towering over that yeah, and it's like and Tony Banderas not a short man No looks like me next to

All the Nordic actors, and then critons like a head above them. Antonio Banderas is listed at five, nine, so he might be on the shorter side. Well, I like that. I remember when the Expendables 2 trailer or poster came out. He might be in three, but go on.

Whichever one it is, I can't remember which one. There was this poster where they're all standing and at the same height, and the trickery of poster where they're all standing and at the same height. And the trickery of it, like having Jet Li stand at the same height as like Dolph Lundgren or whoever, is so offensive. Like, these men are, like there's a foot indifference between the tallest and the shortest. Let them, you know, but like instead they all have to be like even. And it was just very funny.

Yeah. Jet Li just has four foot hands. Right. I remember looking up all their heights and Banderas And I remember looking up... Yeah, and he just has four foot hands. Right, I remember looking up all their heights and Banderas is one of the smaller ones. Okay. But God bless him. I love it.

Compact package, but you know, the full package. Yeah. David? Yeah? You know what I hate? What? Licensing media for my project. It's a hassle!

Ugh. I want to leave a voicemail for a family member wishing them a happy birthday and suddenly I find out it costs how much to license sympathy for the devil? Happy birthday. That's what you want to do. Happy birthday is free now. Now it's free. Now it's free. But I thought it'd be fun to call my dad and go, yo! Right, first there's just hiss, you know, just tape player hiss. There's just hiss you know just take players Wishing you birthday But I'm now thinking of just doing the incredibly slow intro of gimme shelter on so much like it's just really slow

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sign up. Bye. Bye. Bye. The 13th Warrior. I did not see this movie in theaters. I never saw this movie. I saw it the other day. Same.

Same. For this podcast. Yeah. I do remember my dad telling me about a book called Eaters of the Dead. Cool. Good father. Yeah. I wish my dad had told me.

With this kind of relish. Right. My dad never fucking told me there was a book called The Years of the Bay. And me being like, ooh. And he was like, yeah, anyway, this movie apparently lost a hundred million dollars. And then like that's the only, I've just known this is the movie that lost so much money. Yeah. That's it. More than a hundred million. I remember walking by, like I have a very distinct memory of walking by a poster at the AMC Lincoln Square, my dad being like, I guess it was the lowest Lincoln Square at that point, and being like, that thing's gonna be a disaster.

Right, right. Just pointing it and being like, they shot that like three years ago. Yeah, it came out in August, you know, like it's, you can smell it even when you're, well, we were savvy little stupid, you know. Savvy little, stupid boys. Trade reading, yeah, exactly, boys. But this book, okay, I'm opening the dossier. Okay. Michael Crichton, 76,

publishes Eater of the Dead. It's his 14th novel, but only the fourth under his own name. All his first three books all got turned into movies. Andromeda Strain, Terminal Man, Great Train Robbery. You ever seen Terminal Man? I have not. George Segal Fighting a Big Computer? Sounds incredible.

Pretty good! Add it to the remake list, Larry. Um... Do-do-do. Crichton himself, of course, had made movies, as we said. Right. Just the 70s were like, his books are hitting, and he's like, what if I start directing?

And his movies are hits, too. Um, right. Uh, so in 1978, Orion Pictures and Warner Brothers announced Eaters of the Dead will be adapted for the big screen. Michael Crichton is our director. Makes sense. Right. Bingo, bango. Sugar in the gas tank. Right? Oh, that's bad.

Gas in the gas tank. Good. Project fails to take off. Goes to Corolco at some point. Warren Lewis, the screenwriter, writes a new script for it. Like, for whatever reason, Crichton movies died in the 80s. Like, the Congo and Jurassic Park and all that, like, that's the 90s rebound of them. The other thing is, Crichton has, like, a years-long writer's block period. Right.

Jurassic Park breaks a, like, extended, by all accounts, I weirdly saw Michael Ovitz talk about this once at the 92nd Street Y, as the greatest accomplishment of his career, was, like, Crichton had years where he could not write and was, like, wrestling with himself on the floor. Yeah, because it goes, Congo, 1980, Sphere, 87, Jurassic Park, 90s,

so Sphere, he clearly had to, like, drag out of himself. And then in the 90s, he does, like, seven novels. Right. Like, Jurassic Park 90s so severe he clearly had to like drag out of himself Yeah, and then the 90s does like seven novels right like Jurassic Park like Finally breaks the dam for him and obviously is like this huge second wave of his career, but that I think the book coming out and being such a sensation even before the movie Although the movie rights are obviously sold immediately It's like there's a sort of second wave of appreciation for Crichton, because he had been gone for a little bit. People are excited to have him back.

And he starts out the fucking decade with Jurassic and ER, which obviously is not a thing that he's like hugely hands on. He had no involvement in it. He wrote a pilot script. But people in Hollywood have gotten more credit for less successful things that they did less on. Look, his name is on 15 seasons of ER. Correct. So between his name being at the beginning

of every episode and Jurassic Park, the 90s, clearly Hollywood's like, this guy is back to being untouchable. Anything with Crichton attached is fucking gold. And then basically everyone who takes on Crichton after that flops? Strikes out. I would agree, yes. Because Disclosure, would agree, yes.

Because Disclosure, Sphere, Congo... Disclosure does well, right? Disclosure is the one that does well. But yes, Congo, Sphere, Timeline... Timeline. And these are big directors! Yeah, you forgot about timelines. Donner, McTiernan, Levinson...

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Even Lost World is obviously like successful, but less liked. Yeah, and... That's it. I mean, there was an A&E andromeda strain that nobody liked, I think. Or maybe people did and people yell at me now. But there's never been another Crichton adaptation that worked. Even after his death.

And Westworld, the show is so distantly... It is. I guess it did initially work before it sort of went off the rails. But it has nothing to do with his... Yeah. 90s Crichton feeding frenzy of A-list stars and A-list directors are going to attach themselves to Crichton projects. And all of them are these very hyped projects with huge budgets.

Almost all of them have really difficult extended productions and then just land with a thought. And Timeline and The Thirteenth Warrior would be a brutal double feature. Yeah, let's program it and introduce it and make everyone unlock the doors from the outside. Yes. They're aesthetically very similar.

My memories are that they're dark and torches. Yes. Yes. And both are like Hollywood's like, I know what you want, Vikings, right? And audiences are like, no, we weren't interested, sorry. And the timeline is the same. It's like, what if you went back to a castle? And they're like, I don't know, I don't care.

Both of those movies are lead actors who absolutely do not belong in this film. Paul Walker has seen a, I guess it's on a cell phone back then, he's seen a pager. Yes. He's seen an answering machine, but the whole he's a modern-day like he's a graduate Student who creates a time machine by accident. I believe that's right. I've never seen it I mean you I will see it for $100,000 cash non-sequential bills David I just think with everything going on in the world today, there are better uses of money. If any listener has $100,000 and are planning to wire it to David to watch Timeline,

I ask you to reconsider. Just give it to someone else. Double it. Uh, yeah, double it. Um, so William Wisher rewrites this script. William Wisher obviously wrote Terminator 2 with James Cameron, et cetera, so he's a hot name. John McTierney gets attached. And Andrew Vanya, the Rambo guy.

Karelko? Yes, but I think at this point, he's maybe leapt off of Karelko. He had produced Tombstone, Evita, Die Hard with a Vengeance. Right. What was this new company called? Synergy, but with a lot of... with more eyes than you think there should be. But he also made Super Mario Brothers, Judge Dredd, Caller of Night. Like Super Mario Brothers, Judge Dredd, like those, like I have such affection for the 90s. Of course. We spent too much money.

There's a lot of sets. There's one star maybe who's completely out of control. I don't know. Maybe seven. Yeah, like, but like, and like, everyone hated them at the time and I watched them with fondness. Also movies that have almost abject contempt for their source material.

Right, right, like, yeah, exactly. We'll take the name and the costume of Judge Dredd. Helmet's coming off immediately. Right, we're not gonna respect any of the rules. We're doing Mario Brothers, but none of that dumb baby shit. Right, except with Mario Brothers, it was like, with Judge Dredd, it was like you pissed off a bunch of agro-British comic book nerds. With Mario Brothers, it was like the country of Japan was like, this has brought great

shame to us. Like why has this happened? And Shigeru Miyamoto was for years, it's just like, I was so humiliated by that. Like how dare they? I refuse to acknowledge the existence of movies as an art form because of this disgrace. You've seen the Bob Hoskins thing about Mario, right? I mean, obviously he's talked about how he drank throughout the production and was mostly just trying to build a deck on his house or whatever.

But there's a thing where someone's like, well, I know Mario, and he showed me this video game. He's like, boop, boop. And I was looking at that, and I was like, I've played King Lear. And like, it's so good. Is it the story too that someone on set asked him if he had played the video game, and he was like, what video game?

Yes, I think that's- He just thought it was a pretty bizarre spec script. But what I'm trying to communicate here is that like synergy would like make a lot of money and then like Judge Judd would come around and they'd go back to zero. They were kind of like living paycheck to paycheck. Right. They were making big swings. One for them, one for no one.

Right. Like they'd be like, ah, Vito, we hit. All right, we got money again. We can open the doors. And they're like, oh, shit, Color of Night. No one saw it. You know, whatever. So they need Disney to help fund this movie. That's how Disney comes aboard,

Disney gets whatever some rights, and then as it's about to start production, Synergy gets liquidated. And so Disney takes over the entire project. Perfect example of a moment where Disney should have stopped, stepped back for a second and said... -"Maybe we don't do this." -"Maybe we just don't do this." And instead they're like,

no, this will be a touchstone release fully owned by Disney. Antonio Banderas, Evita and the Mask of Zaro. Yeah. He's hot stuff. Right. He's sort of People's Sexiest Man Alive. Like, he's one of those guys.

That's like the peak. Like he's just breaking out. Every woman is like, what a hunk. Right. Critics are like, this guy's a real actor, right? Like he has sort of everything going for him. He had the arthouse credit at the beginning from El Motivar. Right, right.

Like he's king of Spanish cinema. This guy can do anything. He's so uninhibited. I can't believe he looks like this. You have certain people like latching onto him. And then he like jumps over to Hollywood in the 90s is learning his roles phonetically before he's even fluent. But it's one of those guys. They're still killing it, like crushing it. But one of those guys where you could just feel that Hollywood like everyone got together

at a boardroom and said like, we're all in on this guy. We're all going to commit to like a six year plan of making Antonio Banderas an A-list leading man. And it's, like, Mambo Kings to, like, Philadelphia to assassins. And then this is the run. Right, right. And then they're finally, like, great. He gets to be the guy above the title. It's Desperado. It's Zorro. It's this.

How do you feel about Antonio, generally? I love him. He's great. He's the best. Yeah, he's just, like, an utter delight whenever he shows up on screen. You made a great comment, David. I don't remember if it was after Dial of Destiny, Sims. I'm sorry. It's okay. If it was after... Laura, you make many great comments. Sims, one specific good comment you made that I remember...

After Dial of Destiny. It was either after Dial of Destiny or Uncharted, but the more damning thing is you might have said it both times of like, for a guy who was one of my favorite living actors, it is kind of astounding how he can also just give you nothing. Well, like, not give you nothing. Give you nothing's the wrong wording. He can be nothing. Yeah, it's just like in both those movies,

he shows up and you're like, great, I'm getting a whole act of this guy. And then five minutes later, it's like, you just got hit by a bus. But not only that. To be clear, he doesn't get hit by a bus in either of those movies, but he might as well. I have never seen a performance

that I feel he is phoning in because he has so much energy as a performer. He never comes across as lazy, but it is wild to watch him in a movie like Dial of Destiny where he shows up and you're like, automatically I'm getting 20 minutes of juice out of this guy. And even screen time aside, you're like, none of this is registering.

It is bizarre, and I think this is one of those films where you're like, he just kind of disappears into the movie. He doesn't even look like Antonio Banderas. No. Yeah, yeah, he does disappear in this movie. He's like doing shit. It doesn't feel like it's lack of commitment, but you're like it is bizarre how a guy who is just like can be this electrifying and

then even has the ability to like tone it down and go somewhere deeper and whatever can just sort of like show up walk his way across a scene and make no impression. I think this movie is aiming for a sort of realism that hurts him. Like he's better as like a larger than life character. Yes. And that's not what he's playing like an observer, you know?

There's like the scene where they're like, can you read us a poem or whatever? Where he like has to, and you're like, more of that please, like more of him being in order and getting to be, bring some flamboyance to it. But it's all very tamped down. Flamboyance is the word. There's also just like an innate musicality

to the way he speaks that does not necessarily mix well with a certain like reserved grit that this movie is going for. And it translates even just the way he moves where you're like, what a perfect fit for Zorro. Like you just imagine the moment that Elmo DeVar sees him for the first time and is like, fuck, I can do anything with this guy. He's so good in all those movies.

Right. And here he can't, he's like, I can't lift this sword. Yes. Right. It's too heavy for me. He didn't enjoy making this film. He also, he fucks up his back badly while filming? Yes.

He also says about acting against basically a bunch of 6'10 Norsemen. It was like making a movie in the Los Angeles Lakers. These people were enormous. Like, I think he physically was just like, how do I stand out amongst these people? The back injury thing is interesting because this does feel like a movie

where they're shooting around him a lot, where there will be fight sequences where you're like, there hasn't even been a cutaway to him in minutes. Oh, and Rosharif, of course basically like shat all over this movie saying After making that film I said let us stop this nonsense these meal tickets We do because they pay well unless I find a stupendous film that I love like he was he he sort of retired now He made months your Abraham like four years later He said I won't sort of come back unless I get material that really speaks to me.

He does that, everyone's like, Omar Sharif is back. And then what does he do immediately after that? Haldago! Right, he just takes it, he's like, hey, can you meet like an old guy on a horse? He's like, yes, of course. Disney funneling a hundred million dollars plus into a movie no one gives a shit about

where he's like once again sort of prestige for hire. I read that quote from him and assumed that he had been a much larger part of the movie at one point. And it's... Then I read the book, he's not even a character, and I was like, oh, surely this movie did not start media res. It had a first act... Yeah.

...in which all of those brief flashbacks were fully fledged scenes. Right. But there's even more of that in the movie now than there is in the book. In the book, it's like page one, I slept with the wrong person, and I got sent to this rustic land. Yeah.

Believe me, I would pay today for a movie about Antonio Banderas cucking some, like, Arabian lord and getting sent away from, like, you know, ancient Baghdad. This movie breezes past in the first 10 minutes, something I want to unpack for hours. And watching detail. And watch in detail. And then he's like, I chose the wrong woman to love.

And now I must get on a ship. Now, obviously, I don't know how well Antonio Banderas' Ancient Arabian Warrior would go over in 2023. You know, in the 90s, it was still kind of like, hey. Scrap, reset, go, here's the movie. Banderas keeps sticking his dick in the wrong places. I mean. Just start fresh. That is something that actually does keep Scrap, reset, go, here's the movie. Banderas keeps sticking his dick in the wrong places. Just start fresh.

That is something that actually does keep happening in the book. That's one key difference. Oh, really? There's more shagging? There's a lot. More shagging. But there's also a lot of Viking sexual assault, as one would anticipate. So it's actually good that it all got removed.

But Antonio Banderas' character is quite a bit more horny than he is. I mean, you can tell he's, you know. As you should be. It's his origin story, right? When McTiernan talks about his version of the movie and how it would have differed, he said Disney wanted to cut down that shit as much as possible. And he's like, I basically had like 10 more minutes of that. That was the biggest difference in my cut.

Like debauchery. Or no, Banderas. Banderas before he joins the Viking. And they would like take all the Muslim stuff down to as little as possible. Because the way this movie starts is confounding. Correct. Like, the movie, he's a fish out of water. It's the crucial thing to the movie, obviously.

You're probably wondering how I wound up here. It does start with a real... Anyway, so the crucial thing to the movie I'm probably wondering how I wound up here Anyway, so I'm with these Vikings because I'm like, who are you? What is the previous pond sir that you have been removed from? I knew so little about this movie going in outside of names and title I was so disoriented by the first 15 minutes that it took me an hour past that to go, oh, this is Beowulf. I genuinely didn't, it didn't register for me because I was still like,

what the fuck was all of that? This definitely is a classic. You start the movie and you're like, did I click a button and accidentally jump three chapters? And the cut back, it's like, that was like, I was like, when you're watching these movies, you're like trying to dissect where did it go wrong, what got reshot, what got reshuffled in the post. And like the cut back to him on the boat is such a crazy...

Again, like it feels like you're just jumping a scene in the movie and I was like, surely they had an entire first act, but I don't actually know that they did. No, but I think there were more Sharif scenes. I think there was a little more of was a little had to be more Sharif Yeah, he just did the same scene eight times like they bring him back like let's shoot the funeral again Let's shoot this again. Yeah, that would be my guess But I mean to repurpose the bad Twitter joke you do start watching this movie and go like is this not making sense?

Because I didn't watch the first through 12 warriors. Yes, of course, of course Look Okay production begins June 1997 in Canada. Most of the film was shot in Vancouver Island. It wraps by October, was budgeted at $60 million. It was championed by the British Columbia Film Commission as one of their big, expensive projects that year, along with Mr. Magoo. I was gonna say.

The big two! Yeah. They're gonna dominate Hollywood in 98! Warrior and Magoo! Very different time for Disney. There was, you know, whatever type security answer. You know, big stunts. Stuck on the island for five months.

Yes, isolated. Yeah, exactly on the island for five months. Yeah, exactly. Right. Shitty conditions. Have you ever shot in Canada? Well, funnily enough, I was watching this movie and I was like, this looks so familiar. And you're like, shit.

And then I was like, oh yes, I was there. And then I was also like, some of these Vikings look pretty familiar. And I looked in the credits and really, there was one gentleman named John DeSantis, who was also in Master and Commander, and he's one of the principal pirates and he's huge Peter Pan who's taller than Michael Crichton and he plays broad like he's yeah but Ragnar the loathsome I can't remember his character name in this movie is.

Is this primarily the same island you use for Neverland? No. Ragnar the Dower. We did we shot almost no location stuff in Vancouver, but we scouted it all. And so I was like, I'm pretty sure I've been to most of these places. Newfoundland? Newfoundland was like all the location work. Newfoundland's awesome. Live show. Live show.

I don't know if there are enough people to fill a room in Newfoundland. No offense to the... Surprisingly there would be. Surprisingly there would be. It's like, it's pretty crazy how, like, for such a crazily hard to get to place, it's like a vibrant community. I hear that place is lousy with hos hogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, they're all over the place. Yeah. Just don't mention Labrador when you're there. It's a little Canadian joke. Oh, shit. The fuck are these little... It's a little Canadian joke. Shit, that's the fuck it, these little Canadians. There's the town of Dildo, famously. Yeah. That's what they're called.

I love how there are those towns, and now, like, there's some town called, like, Fuck in Sweden or something, where they're like, we're going to change the name. We're sick of this. People just come to take pictures of this sign. We're just going to change the name. All right. Word emerges in 1998. Film is in trouble. It gets pulled change the name. All right. Word emerges in 1998. Film is in trouble. It gets pulled off the slate.

Quote-unquote production delays. This is, of course, pre-Internet. So these rumors just come out in, like, tiny little dribs and drabs, right? There's no info being filled in between. It's just suddenly, like, Disney puts out a statement. The film will be pushed to the fall. And then it just never comes out for a while. So, of course, the film will be pushed to the fall, and then it just never comes out for a while.

So, of course, the film was supposed to be called The Eaters of the Dead, which McTiernan thought was a cool title. Disney decides it's too dark and scary. He tells that story about watering the grass at his house and saying The Eaters of the Dead sounds like a horror movie, so they change it to The Thirteenth Warrior. But also, shouldn't they be kind of selling this as a horror movie?

It's an angle versus what this movie has, no angle. Correct. And again, it's those taglines you're talking about. Like leaning into the fear. Embrace fear. Reject fear. Like they can't even decide. The ad guys.

Are we pro-fear or anti-fear? We were talking with Arp, he was texting us about what's this shift that happens late 90s into early 2000s where suddenly A-list stars and directors are not terrified to make horror films, where it's not looked upon as a lesser genre in a certain way. And we were saying Sixth Sense is responsible for a lot of it. Which comes out right before this. But I do think when a budget gets over a certain number, they're just like, this can't be horror.

Horror is trashy. It is unbecoming. Horror is definitely seen now as the domain of lesser, smaller, new line type studios, right? You know, classy horror has died to death. It's coming back with the sense of trouble. They'd be like, lean into the horror, make it more horror, yeah.

That's what they did with the Poro movie. Yeah. Like, a Haunting in Venice, Death in Venice, that'd be different. That'd be crazy. Haunting in Venice, like, I just remember seeing that trailer and I'm like, this is kind of like a Blumhouse trailer. Right.

Like, it just has Poro in it. Yes. But like the trailer is like, this is fucking nerve jangling thrill ride, you know? But I mean, the other examples we were saying, The Haunting is 99, which is Yen to bunt, but it's Spielberg producing it, and it's Liam Neeson and Catherine Zeta-Jones,

and it's like a big budget. Right. A lot of it is like Spielberg and Zemeckis and those guys coming of an age where they're like, we grew up on these movies. We like them. We take them seriously. We're going to produce them. And then Zemeckis does what lies beneath.

Yeah. Right. Right. But yes, this movie should have been like, here's the pitch. Antonio Banderas fights monsters. Fights like cannibal people. Terrifying. OK, apparently Disney was trying to get McTiernan committed to another Crichton adaptation called Airframe. They basically keep this movie going and pumping money into it

because they think the real play is getting him to make this other Crichton movie afterwards. Yeah. What's Airframe about? It's like about the investigation of an airplane accident. Kind of sounds cool in that Cretan-y way of like, he's really good at taking you into like, the technical process of something. And McTiernan's good at making that shit exciting.

Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, McTiernan of course eventually says, fuck you after this movie, I'm not doing anything with you again. We just never want to touch Kretan ever again. Or Disney. So, you know, McTiernan said basically, Touch quite never again, right? Yeah, or Disney. Yeah so You know McTiernan said basically like this was originally gonna be a PG-13 blockbuster get turned into like a Gory or R rated movie

one of the only times where it's happening in that direction where this movie is like greenlit as PG-13 Eaters of the Dead and then at some point they go like, we're changing the title to something more generic, less horror sounding, but also asking you to make it bloodier because we watched the cut and it feels like we're pulling punches. And he's like, if I had known it was R from the beginning, which I would have preferred,

I would have structured everything differently. I would have designed all these sequences differently. And it should have been R from the beginning. Right, and now I'm basically like going back for reshoots Everything differently. I would have designed all these sequences differently. And it should have been R from the beginning. Right. And now I'm basically like going back for reshoots and just doing like Tom Savini gags. Which, there aren't even that many, honestly.

But they just throw in some bloody stuff just to throw it in. Someone's head gets popped off at one point. There's so much potential. In like one of those smooth motions where I'm like, heads don't just come off of bodies. No, but they do in the movies and it's delightful. I cannot think of, one of those smooth motions where I'm like, heads don't just come off of bodies. No, but they do in the movies, and it's delightful. I cannot think of another example of that

where a studio's like, we're gonna funnel more money in and make it R-rated. Whereas usually it's like, this costs too much, we need to recut it down to PG-13 and put it out fast. So obviously, as you said, Crichton overshot his own reshoots, overshot basically almost all the editing, over all the editing. And Kulich, who is Kulich? The producer?

No, Kulich is the actor who plays... Right, right. Said basically, like, I did an ending with McJernand and an ending with Crichton, like in the same lot, and I would be shuttling between, like, studios. He said Crichton came up to him at one point and said, by the way, whatever you're doing over there, it's not gonna end up in the movie, so don't put too much work into it. Yeah, Crichton was like, I have final cut.

So, whatever you do over there. It definitely does not seem like the appropriate process for making a movie. No, terrible. It sounds like a nightmare. Just simultaneous is wild. It's not like, oh, Crichton gets a stab at reshoots and then McTiernan. It's usually like, I think of a director is like, the studio and I disagree.

Right. We're gonna go our separate ways, creative differences. Yes. You don't persevere usually unless it's like dueling edits at the end of the, like we're gonna test out two different versions. But by edit, it was settled. Like edit was Crichton gets control of that. At a certain point, McTiernan's like dueling edits at the end of the right like we're gonna test out two different versions But by edit it was settled like edit was Crichton gets control of that at a certain point McTiernan's like I'm fucking going on to Thomas Crown I gotta do something else. There's also a Graham Ravel score

You know, which is it was much more influenced by Like a rare bit music. Yeah, exactly like, you know, and I love Graham Ravel He did like the crow and From Dusk Till Dawn. But he's also the R-rated horror. He's the guy to go to for those movies. And Crichton's like, fuck that. We're getting Jerry Goldsmith, who's like my guy and we'll give you swelling, orchestral, medieval music, you know, like battle music.

It's fine. It's fun if generic Goldsmith score. He's better at this than anybody. It's not original work from him, though. John wanted the mother character to be like a grand matriarch. Crichton thought she should be hot. It's amazing how every man will feel like... Yeah, the mother should be very sexy.

Total babe? Yeah. No, in the book, she's described much like a loathsome creature who is like ancient and huge. But that's one where they like shot that both ways with two different castings. That makes sense. That makes sense. Right. Kulich says like Michael's cut is simplistic, McTiernan's is more deep and multi-layered.

I mean, we're never gonna see these. No. McTiernan also has kind of been like, that's nice of him to say, but like, I don't think there's some good version of this movie in a can somewhere. He's like, there's a better version, there's no lost masterpiece.

Right. What's his name, Kulich, the actor? Kulich, Vladimir Kulich. He understandably talks about like... He seems to be the one guy when they were like, do you wanna do some DVD interviews? He's like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. Medeiros was like, lose my number.

They wanted Stellan Skarsgård to play his part, which makes perfect sense. Right? And, uh, McTiernan wanted him. No one else wanted him. Disney didn't want him. Crichton didn't want him. McTiernan fought really hard. And the way he talks about it, he clearly was like, here is my entree to Hollywood.

The film that will make me at the very least, Stellan Skarsgard, at the very least I will be like a reliable supporting actor in big Hollywood films. And I think he, it just reads like he cannot divorce the potential this movie had in its head from what it ended up being. Which is understandable. It's just disappointing, yeah. Yeah. Because he's doing, everyone in the movie is like doing pretty good work.

Like the guy that plays, wait, is that the guy that plays the bully wolf or the guy that plays his friend? That's the guy that plays the bull wolf. The guy that plays his friend was also, again, I kept being like, I feel like this should be populated with actors I know from Dogma 95 movies and like I didn't know anybody. Dennis Storhoy. It is surprising that you're not like recognizing people. You go to their IMDbs and you're like, oh, I guess I have seen that guy in ten things But none of them immediately jump obviously

it's a lot of David's leaning I'm doing George and Seinfeld. Yeah, but like yeah like because it's a dark movie But I was kind of like Antonio Banderas isn't it and then I looking at the castle like we'll die in Venora Okay, I love her. I'm sure she'll be all over this thing. Kind of. Five shots, maybe. And then I'm like, and then who else do they have?

They have no names I know. Sharif's gone from minute seven. Yeah, like even the fucking Hobbit movies make an effort to have them be visually distinctive in a way that you can now obviously, that's set in a fantasy world, I understand. This is going for like, no, these are real Viking warriors getting on a ship. They're gonna kind of have the same vibe.

But they're dark and muddy. And then I'm lost. I just cannot keep track of these guys. Yeah, and you're surprised on that, guys, you know, especially when as you watch the movie, you're like, Banderas, like, sinking down to third lead of this film. Like I said, because he's playing an observer, he often, right, is relegated to, like, watching stuff happen.

Yeah. Kind of boring. He never has the hero moment where he, you know, goes off half-cocked and saves somebody. Also, in a film where they don't care about casting a Spaniard to play a Muslim, you're almost astonished by their commitment to casting, like, guys who actually are kind of Nordic to play the Vikings, rather than just putting, you know, whomever in there. Caspar Van Dien or whatever.

I think that's partially because of the language. They wanted people that were speaking that language at the beginning of the film, which goes in again to the one memorable scene, which is memorable enough that I keep referencing it. Griffin, how's your sock drawer looking? Unbelievable, you know why? Why? Filled to the brim with bombasts!

Well, maybe if you're not like Griffin, it's time for a spring cleaning and refresh. Not like Griffin, Griffin doesn't need a spring clean at all. No, I'm sort of the gallant in this situation you the listener are the goofus who needs to follow my example But you know from goofus and gallant Ben looked at me confused we all know from goofus and gallant We all know from goofus and gallant right honestly no like I don't think he knows what goofus Yeah, I lights magazine goofus and gallant Gallant does things right damn dentist magazine Like I don't think he knows what goof is. Magazine goof is in gallon. Goof is Gallant does things right and all that damn dentist magazine exactly. Yeah, and often Ben I'm the goofest of the world everyone laughing and pointing and doing it saying don't do a Griffin does he's doing it all wrong

But when you crack open the old Griffey Noom sock drawer, for that brief moment I'm a gallant because it is overflowing with bombas and everyone should follow my lead. Here's the thing with bombas, David, and I learned this the hard way and I'm wearing them right now I'm wiggling my toesies in them. We're now doing like war and peace level bombas ad here. Once you try bombas you'll never look at socks the same way again. They're good socks! You're obsessed with the details David! Of course And they have a great mission, they donate them. Honeycomb Arch Support, who else is gonna give you that? Anything you purchase, socks, tees, underwear. They don't miss the taps, cushion, footbeds.

They donate them to someone facing homelessness. That makes me feel even better about myself. I've got a 100% happiness guarantee, so if anything wrong happens or you don't like the purchase, they'll just do whatever they can to replace it or make it right. right see this is when I crack open my sock drawer I'm not just patting myself on the back and go and look in good griff I'm also thinking about the equivalent socks that others received for every pair I bought get comfy this spring and get back with bombas head over to bombas.com slash check and use code check for 20% Off your first purchase. That's BOMBAS.com slash check and use code check for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash check

and use code check at checkout. B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash check. Bombus dot com slash check. Bombus, the most successful company in the history of Shark Tank. Shark Tank, okay, now we're done. I mean, let's try to dig into the plot of this. But as we said, it starts with this.

I bet you're wondering how I got here. I'm on a ship because I fucked the wrong person, right? Yeah, basically. Basically, I slept with the king's wife. wrong person, right? Yeah, basically. Yeah, basically, I slept with the king's wife. I mean, it's not the king, it's like the caliph. But, you know, yeah. So I am now, I've been appointed an ambassador to the Volga Vulgars who are like these sort of like multi-ethnic, sort of Slavic state up, you know, the Volga river, you know,

you're getting more into like what is now Russia. Yeah. Uh, in the caucuses or whatever. So like I'm going up from the middle East, you know, to whatever the central Asia slash Europe. Uh, and there I run into a bunch of Norsemen, right? They fight off some Raiders and he starts hanging out with the Norsemen, right? They fight off some raiders and he starts hanging out with the Norsemen, right?

He gets enlisted because of the witch or the seer there says, you know, you're about to embark on an adventure and you need the titular 13th warrior. There's 12 of you, we need one more. You think we need 13. So you think we need 13. It truly is that. Where she's like, okay, like we're hearing that King Rathgar, you know, and then everyone's

Beowulf senses start going off, is in trouble up north. There's some monsters attacking him or something. And the wise woman, the sort of Bjork from Northwest character is like, oh, well, for that you're going to need a 13th warrior and he can't be a Viking and they're like That's the funniest part is she's like you're gonna need one more warrior and they're like, okay Lars you're off the back No, he needs to be kind of a different No, I there's more to the parchment Someone with foreign sales appeal

Someone with foreign sales appeal But it's gonna be so annoying from he's probably gonna drop out of gladiator basically because of this like isn't that why he Fucking part of this movie. Who is he playing? Maximus main character seriously that was built for him. That's why this span year Oh, no saying is that this movie starts with Antonio Banderas being like, I am a Muslim. And then Gladiator starts with Russell Crowe being like, I of course am a Spaniard. And it's because of fucking Banderas being cast in the wrong movie, which causes him to drop out of the right movie. This movie goes down like 20 points from where already...

Oh, because it dropped them. But it was so good, Maddie. Better than Banderas would have been. But I think so. But for him, for Banderas would have been. I think so. Catastrophic for Banderas. But for him, for Banderas, it's like multiple demerits. The question is, I do think Banderas could have been good in Gladiator, right? But like, is Crowe in Gladiator the alchemy that makes it this out of nowhere hit?

Sure. Is Banderas in Gladiator another medieval flop that only hurts his standing? I think Gladiator doesn't win Best Picture if Banderas is in it. It's not that level of hit, but it absolutely would have helped his career. Well, the other thing is like, it would have inherently had he not, had this one not gone over budget,

it would have come after this one. So it would have been like the second Antonio Banderas, Sword and Sandals movie, which would have automatically hurt it. Right. Sure. But it also probably would have automatically heard it. Right. Sure. But it also probably would have stopped this movie from going over budget. That's true. It's like,

if they had just given up and said, like, fine, put it out there, let him go do Gladiator. This movie is half the flop that it would have been otherwise. Right. Also this same year, Crazy in Alabama comes out. Yes. Which is the one movie he directed with Molly Griffith, which is also a flop. It's like but he's untouchable

I agree, but it's just funny where like 98 people are like, you know what we get it You finally made sense of Antonio Banderas. We all get it. He's Zorro perfect vehicle and 99 He's just like stepping in shit and people are just still kind of charmed by him. I just Like because he's so personally charming and he's so talented, he's sort of indestructible. He's been associated with lots of flops. It doesn't really matter. He always bounces back by doing usually something

like Shrek or Spy Kids or something where he's not even the lead. Yeah. But then when you look at, he's made more bombs than hits in Hollywood. Yes. Right? Like his hits in Hollywood are what?

X versus seven. Obviously, X versus seven. No, it's like, okay, so it's like Desperado was basically a hit. If we're talking like him as the guy in live action. That's what I'm saying. Zorro, Desperado. I'm not counting Spy Kids.

No. I'm counting Once Upon a Time in Mexico, even though Dep sort of helped that movie be a bigger hit at that moment, I guess. And then it's like Puss in Boots. Yeah. Did Femme Fatale do well? No. And then it's like...

Right, like the bombs, like Assassins was a bomb, right? Yeah. You know, Thirteenth Warrior, Play It to the Bone wasins was a bomb, right? Yeah. You know, 13th Warrior, Play It To The Bone was kind of a bomb. Original Sin? Original Sin was a bomb, people hated it. Choose Bomb, take the lead. Femme Fatale, which is a great movie to be clear,

but X Versus Sever, Legend of Zaro, everyone hates. Take the lead, great call, what the hell is that? It's like a dancing movie? Yes. Sounds pretty good actually. Border Town, you know, fuckin' thickest the- you know, he's done like the straight to DVD stuff. Right, now he's done a bunch of weird Red Box thrillers as well and then he'll like

pop into Uncharted, Indiana Jones, Doolittle, playing a sexy pirate. Have you seen Nighad yet? No, I mean you haven't. No, I'm- You're excited to watch that? Weirdly excited to watch. I will have seen it by the time In I had she wears this like a suit this like rubber. I'm gonna tell me Ben. Darius is not I know I wish

You can do it. I had you must It's that away In I had she wears this like rubber suit to avoid being stung by jellyfish while she's swimming in the open ocean, a totally normal thing that she does. Yeah. And my friend referred to it as her skin-eye-living suit, and I've not been able to dismiss it. It truly just looks like that. He's so good in that.

He's amazing in that. That's the other thing. He'll go off and do an Amodavar movie, and just get, like, five more years of cred from one of those. Yeah. And also varying tones of Amodivar movie and just get like five more years of cred from one of those. And also varying tones of a motivar, because he does like The Skin I Live In, which is like very heightened. And fucked up and weird. But then also do these incredibly emotional ones.

Panic Glory is like one of my favorite screen performances. He's in Doolittle. Is he the villain in that? I said sexy pirate. I've never seen that. I have seen it and I don't remember if he's a... I think he's the villain But like when Shrek 2 comes out, the big villain is a dragon that needs to fart. That's the thing. Right. Yeah When do it not do little when Shrek 2 comes out people are like, oh, of course, we all love Antonio Banderas We have always loved Antonio Banderas. It's like this guy's made flops for five straight years. You guys aren't showing up for him

Yeah, and then he does like cat Zaro and you're all like, you know, give us course You know, let's change the Constitution so we can elect him president. I guess the other thing I'm forgetting is in between Shrek 2 and the run of flops that start with this basically. Yeah He does nine on Broadway and everyone's like, oh fuck right this guy. That's it an incredible thing I listen to that all the time. But it was that thing of just like, right, I forgot. He can be like funny and sing and dance. Was he ever considered for the movie?

Or was this post... I was so furious. No, it's pre the movie. They announced it with Bardon. The revival of Nine, they did announce it with Bardon. And then Daniel Day filled in. Which is insane. Like, they were like, do you want to do it, Daniel Day? He's like, huh?

Oh, sure. Yeah. You have two weeks to prep. And he's like, I probably got it. But like, the revival of Nine that Banderas did was what kind of made that a hot property again. And of course, the original version of Nine was with Raul Julia. And Antonio Banderas does kind of have, He does kind of take the torch from Raul Julia

as the kind of like pint-sized, mega-good actor, sex symbol... Smoldering, million-lot charisma. ...who can also kind of do anything. Like, you need him to drop to, like, support, fine. He'll do that too. Um, but like, the problem, I guess, is that he's so handsome and charming that Hollywood's like,

but you need to be the star of action movies. And when he's in the Expendables, it's like, yeah, he belongs here. He did a bunch of movies with guns and stuff, but you don't really think of him as like a Dolph Lundgren or a Jean-Claude Van Damme. No, like Desperado aside, it's like his worst work. All his bad stuff. Yeah. What if he was playing... Well, I was gonna make a joke, but I actually don't know if he's X or Sever.

Is he X or Sever? Can anyone answer this question? Inexpendables three? What do you... Oh, I'm just, yeah, inexpendable, like, what about like... But is he... he's X. I think he's X. Okay, he's X. Which, of course, is spelled E-C-K-S.

Of course. Who... X or Sever had a notable director. Chaos. Chaos, that's right, yeah. K-C-K-S. Who directed this? I've never had a notable director. Chaos. Chaos, that's right. K-A-O-S? A Thai director whose name is like, which chaosananda, you know, he has a longer name. But I do love that it's directed by chaos. Do you ever hate that we know this shit?

That all three of us were rushing to pull chaos? Do you remember that movie? It was a remake, a horror remake where the director was a mysterious character who only wore a mask. No, what movie was this? What movie is it? It's a remake. He was like daft-punking it. He was like, I'm not taking it off.

It's a remake of it with a killer kid movie remake with Vanessa Shaw You know and the director has a mysterious name and apparently only wore a mask on set on set It wasn't just for press the mystery of the mass director come out and play is the film and So Vanessa Shaw and Ivo Mas backtrack. Wait a second. Wow. Well, I love both of them. His name is Mackinac Wait a second. Wow. Wait, I love both of them. His name is Makinov. Makinov.

Makinov. And it is his only credit. He is credited as director, cinematographer, editor, sound department producer and writer. Jesus. But Vanessa Shaw though, I love her. Yeah. She's great. Okay.

So, Banderas is drawn into Beowulf, essentially. Right. He's drafted into Beowulf. Right. It's like, okay, chapter one of Beowulf, but we need a 13th guy. Banderas, you're in. He's like, oh, okay. And so they are going to go to the far north to fight monsters.

But we've got some great fish out of water stuff. He's got an Arabian horse. They give him a bunch of shit about that. He's just too small. He's too clean. Um, yeah, right, right. He's not as sort of mucky and gritty as them. Um, but then in probably the best scene in the movie,

as you say, he's like, I know your language. And they're like, how? And he's like, I know your language. And they're like, how? And he's like, I've been listening. But like, you know, it's such a... It's a really well shot, well edited, well mixed and well performed scene. And it looks now like I'm watching him like, oh, they shot this all in one night or whatever.

It's like, it's really compressed and not hard to figure out how they did it. But I just remember being so taken with like the progression of languages. Because it's not just English and whichever Scandinavian language, which I don't know which the actor was speaking. But then there's Latin mixed in too,

because his buddy speaks Latin. And that's how Omar Sharif communicates with them. So it's the mingling of all three of those and the rhythm of it. And like watching it, I was like, yeah, I see why this stuck with me because it is an incredible symphony of linguistics that culminates in a really good line delivery

from Banderas where he's like, I listened. Which was a great line delivery. And it was like, that scene in and of itself was great. And I like movies about communication. I like when communication and language come in. I don't speak any other language because I'm just terrible at learning them. The language of film. Yes.

I have studied language. I studied Latin. I studied Klingon. I love reading memoirs of translators and about how the art of translation works. And this scene kind of like encapsulates in about a minute and a half the way in which the brain can adjust and learn to hear sounds and apply meaning to them. And so anyway, long story short, I love that scene.

I still think it's a pretty darn good scene. And it is not a reason to watch this movie, but if that scene exists on YouTube, which I'm sure it does, I would recommend it. But it's also like the last scene in the movie that's like that. Yes. Like, after that, he's just kind of in the club,

and then it's just like, okay, now we are going to fight people in bear costumes in various locales. Well, even the film making, like, there's the scene where he, like, sharpens his sword to make it in the Arabian style or whatever, which is shot poorly. Like, it's like a very long lens, like from across a football field.

And then they just do a series of jump cuts, and it's just like, well, they're at a football game. Exactly. It's, um... And I was like, oh, it's like, what? Again, I was like, did someone, was this a different director doing this? Right, well, because like, McTierna's peak

is one of the all-time great anamorphic directors, is so deliberate in his camera placement at all times. And I think there are some quotes in the dossier, but like, he was saying like, look, like, Michael Crichton's a very literal-minded man in the way he conveys information. Or maybe it was Ulrich the actor saying like the difference between their two styles. But yeah, that it's like, you know, the difference between trying to find a way to evoke something and convey something versus feeling the need to like directly explain it, point it to you. And I think Creighton was just very literal with everything.

Right, right. Um, which... makes sense because that's his approach to filmmaking. Right. Like, even in the good movies, you kind of like them because they're not sensational. He makes movies to serve his own stories. But they have a... He directs them rather to protect his screenplays.

Westworld and Coma are kind of straightforward even though they're about ludicrous things. They're fantastical, but they have a lack of imagination. Right, but the incongruity of that is kind of weird. Like, Westworld truly is like, ah, fuck, the robot's shooting at me. Like, you know, it's not too grand about it. It's like, what if the fucking robot shot at you?

This movie needs to be pulpier. It needs to be pulpier fucking robot shot at you this movie needs to be pulpier It is a whole beer and it needs to have it needs to be scary Yeah, because the antagonists are never scary. No, nor are they they should be nor are they interesting? No, like nothing and and the book does a little bit more The book has a book is presented as a historical document, right? That has been translated and so it's full of footnotes and notes from translators about the various meanings of what the original author, Banderas' character,

may have meant or what it actually may have happened. And then it has all these appendixes at the end, describing, it goes more into the history of the Neanderthal and about how the history of the Neanderthal and about how the years of the dead, Like descended from them somehow? Descended from the Neanderthals and also how long the Neanderthals existed

as a species before they eventually died out, like alongside modern man. Right, we used to think it was like, they were there, we come along, they're gone really fast. But it's like, no, they kind of limped around for like thousands of years. They were like Quiznos while Subway was still going strong. But what this needed...

Didn't those all close? Fantastic comparison. They're actually still around. What this needed was more like... Pulpier is the right way to say it, because the creature should have been like the descent. And there's so much of this movie that is similar to The Descent.

And you're watching it just being like, why am I not as scared of like, even getting to the throne room. It's like Banderas is like, no man could have done this. And you're like, actually, it's just a pile of skulls. It's not that scary. Whereas in The Descent, you're just like looking also at a pile of skulls with a matriarch of an underground society. And you're like, this is utterly terrifying.

I think Sims is going to sigh an exasperated sigh in a moment, because this is a movie I invoke a weird amount. Okay. Lowry, have you ever seen Season of the Witch? The Naked one. Yes. I wouldn't ever sigh at Season of the Witch because I like Season of the Witch.

I forgot you'd actually seen it. I'm pro Season of the Witch. I think really good. I defend that as some of the most sublime trash of the last 10 years in this sort of space Yeah, but like I and and I want the elevated McTiernan movie of what I think that movie accomplishes, right? But that movie has the thing of like we are real Knights in a real world We're butting up against something that feels supernatural and a lot of the movie is like is that is it possible?

Yeah, right to yeah. Right. To what extent is she actually a witch or versus, yeah. Right, and season of the witch comes down in a very definitive way at the end of it. But like, right, even if this movie wants to, in its foundation, say, these are things that will get translated and transmuted over centuries in storytelling into supernatural creatures,

perhaps they are terrifying humans. You want them in practice to occupy a middle space. I just... Or just make them fucking monsters. Or just make them fucking monsters. There's a part where they're like, the fireworm is coming tonight, and you're like, cool, the fireworm, great.

Can't wait to see a fireworm. And it's just hard cut to a line of people holding torches. And it's just like, you could have had both. You could have had this vision of this nightmarish vision coming over the mountainside. And then it turns, I mean, I remember in Throne of Blood, the Curacao movie, all the trees coming forward is terrifying. And then you're like, oh, it's just people carrying trees.

Right, but this is exactly like... I would love to see a movie that actually communicates. Like, imagine you're a Roman soldier, you make it to Scotland, and these like giant blue-painted, naked people charge out of the woods at you. That feels supernatural. And you're like, it's aliens or whatever. Yeah, exactly, we found monsters up here. It's like, no, they were just these crazy warriors,

but like even Braveheart or whatever, you know, it doesn't really capture that. I want something that does that. And it's just wild for how much money this movie costs. And it's on screen in the sense that you're like, wow, huge set, so many extras, so many props and costumes or whatever. But you're like, this thing's shot three times, basically. You have two reshoot units going on at the same time.

And no one's like, hey, maybe hire Greg Nicotero and come with a couple cool looks. Yeah. You need, like, the head orc. Right. There's, the head orc. Right, there's like no iteration of this where people are like, do we need more than a guy wearing a bear? I think David needs to make this movie.

But like just the idea of like, How are you going to make this? First 20 minutes, horny, you know, Arabian warrior gets in trouble at the court. Okay, that's fun. Start us off with some, you know, some of that. And you know, in fact, feel free to make it Florida, man.

And he should be like peacocking, right? He's like really like the big man on campus. He needs to be like Sorcerer. We had this entire movie before the movie. Yes. Exactly. Then, okay, he gets... You think it's just a horn dog comedy. Now, you're getting exiled. You got to go up north. Okay, he goes up north. He runs into Vikings. The Vikings are different. You stick with that. That's fine. He gets roped into this journey.

And then they're like, yeah, so it's like King Hrothgar. And anyone in the audience who knows their shit is like, I'm going into Beowulf. And then, yes, I want them to go into... It can be real. It doesn't have to be monsters. But, like... It needs to feel. Right. Like...

The audience needs to buy into the... Like they're going into Vietnam or whatever, and it's like, I don't understand, like, all the rules of combat are different. Or, you know, like, yeah, like, just like, we're fighting an alien, an enemy we don't understand. I kept thinking... Instead, it's like, we're fighting an enemy that's big. Right.

And in a bear suit. Severed heads can be really scary. Yeah. Like, I remember in Sicario, maybe, where, like, they just are, I mean, this is, like, unfortunately very true, but just, like, using the display of severed heads to instill fear in one's enemy. And it's really chilling, really unsettling. And these are monsters who take people's heads and they never show up again. Like, I was like, what a missed opportunity.

And once again, I'm watching this, tired, stressed out, distracted. Perhaps my comprehension was not at its peak. But there was the moment where I went, oh, that's supposed to be Grendel. Right. And he... Grendel, yes. Had been on screen for many minutes at that point. Right, right.

There's cool ideas, like this Venus figurine, like the famous, you know, ancient Venus figurine. All truthful, all pulled from history. Right. And they're like, that sort of represents the mother of Grendel, Grendel, whatever, you know, ancient Venus figurine. All truthful, all pulled from history. And they're like, that sort of represents the mother of Grendel, Windel, whatever, you know. But I just feel like the back half of this movie is a bunch of people fighting in caves

and dark forests and shit, and you don't really... You can see the action. And there's not, I mean, aside from... But you just don't really feel a lot of tension. Yeah. Yes. Aside from the death scene that I mentioned earlier, And there's not, I mean, aside from... But, like, you just don't really feel a lot of tension. Yeah. Yeah. Aside from the death scene that I mentioned earlier, there's, like, nothing climactic about the movie.

Like, when they finally behead the headwendel, or whatever, it's like you don't even really notice it happen. And then they just start retreating, and you're like, oh, okay, it's over. Also, a movie like this, where you got one big star above the title, face on the poster, most of the cast are international actors you don't even recognize, right?

You're like, this is gonna be the narrative of, oh, he actually was the hero, right? You assume there's gonna be some element of like, he was the one who really slayed Grandal, or Beowulf was kind of an idea more than he was a hero, or whatever the fuck it is. And you're like, no, he just basically from minute 35 retreats into just standing around,

also being there watching shit happen. And it's like, he does nothing to drive the story. No. At the end they say thanks. They say thanks. They're like, good job, you were there. And he prays to Allah. And he says, he's like, tell my story.

Like at the end, Bully Wolf says, he's like, right, he's like, tell my story. Like, at the end, Bully Wolf says, like, you know, draw word, draw sounds, draw my sounds or whatever. It makes sense if you're reading the book and it is told by him. Yes, but there's so little of that going on here. Right, that you're like, he is the least active character for a guy who is fighting for an hour and a half. This is the problem with these adaptations often.

Like, of course, the genius of Jurassic Park is it jumps from character to character, right? So there's no one who's just there being like, For an hour and a half. This is the problem with these adaptations often. Like, of course, the genius of Jurassic Park is it jumps from character to character, right? So there's no one who's just there being like, you know, day four at Jurassic Park, things getting bad, you know? But like, when you have the Nick Carraway type guy, like in all the great Spagatsby movies,

they're like, what do we do about this character who just watches everything happen and then is like idly thinking about it later? You know, like, you know, like, how do I represent that in a movie? But it's also easier to do that. Even though, yes, that has been the issue of every dramatization of Greg Gatsby. It's like, well, you just need to have another actor stand next to him and listen, even if it's not exciting. He feels present.

Whereas if you're in a battlefield, everyone's swinging swords. You're like, well, it's hard to have the guy who's the observer and the listener just be like in the middle of chaos when no one's talking. And also not participating. Really. Like a little bit. But I feel like I'm a little more positive on this movie than you guys. There's like four scenes I like, but the real test when I was watching was like, if you were channel surfing, this was on TNT, would you stick with it? I am not hugely... It's like a five out of ten for me.

Like, it is not a movie where I'm like, what an embarrassing moment. And it is not a movie, as I thought it was going to be, where I'm like, incoherent, clearly just so fucked with that you can't even figure out what the movie was supposed to be. Like Crichton is saying, he's like, my cut isn't that different. It's just like, you know, it's probably the difference

of a few minutes, right? Like, but the problems are, you know, more in the adaptation, I think. And, you know, just like from the start, they're kind of working with the wrong angles. I like it less than you, but there are elements that grab me in the same way, but it's just one of those movies

where the whole time I'm watching, and I'm like, this should rule. Well, I can't, it's just one of those movies where the whole time I'm watching, and I'm like, this should rule. Well, I can't, it's like one of those movies, like I like it a little bit here and there, and I've got fond memories of it, especially that one scene and the ending, but I couldn't quite recommend it unless someone was really into seeing Vikings

or adaptations of Beowulf, or that all of the contextual things that, or McTiernan Wanting to be a completist which I'm assuming this movie is about to get a large bump like the larger a bigger bump That's had in 20 years. Yes. Yeah, it'll get at least a bump. Yes, exactly and Some numbers are like something are blinking at like the Disney Yeah, touch stone office in the back 14th Warder. Yeah, like lots of complaints about the image quality office in the back. 14th Warder, is that what it is?

Like lots of complaints about the image quality. Mac, if you remember to update the HD, oh yeah, I'll get right on that. Previously it was just a Viewmaster reel uploaded to iTunes. This iTunes, wait, I got something for you. But it's really interesting watching it also as like the last epic of its sort. Because there's like a visual effects department in the credits, but I couldn't tell if there was any CG other than the boat. Like at sea.

Yeah, at sea that's right. Like, those things could look better, although it's kind of cool seeing it slung down. It's still cool, yeah. And it doesn't look that much different than boats at sea now. Like that's what it all looks like. It's so hard to do cool, yeah. And it doesn't look that much different than boats at sea now. Like, that's what it all looks like. It's so hard to do that, right? But the, but it's, it's a very analog movie. Yes.

And it has that, which again, I associate with McTiernan a lot, is like that sort of starting in the 80s when film stocks became more naturalistic, but still, so the style came from how you lensed it. Like, you're not doing digital DIs yet. You don't have the telecine controls beyond the red, green, blue, or cyan, magenta, whatever. Please keep going. This is, and so it's got this very analog style that's very naturalistic. Whereas if you just to use another Viking move, to use the Northmen as an example,

it's so stylized because you have these new tools at your disposal. Directors are able to put that look, that patina, even Lord of the Rings a few years later, which has a lot of the same scenes. Like, a lot of the same content. Of like, monstrous creatures attacking people in a wooden fort. These guys are basically orcs. Going into a cave that is full of skulls.

And you just see the way in which modern filmmaking in the space of like just a couple of years in that case, took a big leap forward and allowed people to represent these images with a different sort of style. Well, McTiernan's also one of those guys who's like, my visual inspirations are from fine art. Yes. I'm not inspired by other movies.

Yes. Right? And like the transition point is happening already and is going to just become complete basically after him where you have very few people who's like way into movies isn't movies. Very true. You know, and aren't sort of like using the language of what they know and what they love

and what they've come up with. And it's not like this movie is particularly painterly, but you do see him thinking about it visually in a way different to how Ridley Scott does when he makes these types of movies. Or Jackson or any of those people. The movie I kept on thinking of that at times, I felt like it was evoking some of the feeling of,

and it's a movie I prefer, but for Ho at times I felt like it was evoking some of the feeling of it's a movie I prefer but for Hovind's flesh and blood sure. Yes, which similarly feels like I want to actually like be here That was also very bright. Like it's mostly during the day. It's more in turn today. Yeah And it has a sort of unhinged quality. Yes Present in many of her Hovind film and this does not have an unhinged quality, right? The Vikings in many of Verhoeven film, and this does not have an unhinged quality. The Vikings in this are pretty serious warriors without, you know, the humor is mostly like, your horse is smaller.

But that's a movie where Verhoeven talks about mostly being inspired by Bosch paintings and being like, I want to make a movie that feels like the art. I want to make a movie that feels like the art of the time and the way putting that on the screen instead of our modern perspective. Also, they are all Nazis. Flesh and Blood is a better film. Yeah. I love that movie.

I love that movie. I do too. What are some other comps though? Because like, this definitely isn't... Northman is the most modern. So when you say the film stocks got better, like what does that mean? Well, it's got more, you needed less light, for example.

Like let's go to Lawrence of Arabia, which was also completely photochemical movie. Any David Lean movie to use, if we're gonna draw connections, because of Omar Sharif, you would have had the three-strip process, then in the 70s the film stock got a little faster, and by the 80s it had a very distinct look

that we kind of associate with that era of filmmaking. And it extended- A glossier era. Glossier, but also you didn't need as much light. Like you just literally could shoot more naturalistically. It's why you think of like 70s horror movies being so grainy because they're mostly the films that are set at night that couldn't work around it on technical level, find some creative way to shoot day for night or whatever it is

and so it's just like stocks being pushed really hard. And then into the 90s you have that and then at late 90s you get into, well I guess Oh Brother is the first full DI, but then all of a sudden that toolbox is available and everyone takes advantage of it. Within like two years it becomes difficult. The way to make movies. And so you don't get movies that look like this anymore, both because you don't shoot on film,

if you do shoot on film the stock is different, you don't have film stocks that look like this anymore, the lens technology is now advanced, everyone's like going further back in time, getting retro lenses. And everyone wants a movie to look like... I think there's so few directors now who have the modesty, I would say, to have a film

that doesn't have a signature style to it. Yeah. And McTiernan's movies are so robust and so strong, like such strong direction, but he doesn't... But he's never been, right, like this is a McTiernan movie. Yeah, he doesn't have a signature. Snapping this filter on. Exactly.

Or like a Spike Lee Dolly shot, for example. Well, I mean, I think we talked about this when we did the episode, it will have been months ago now, but Dead Reckoning Part One, maybe now called Dead Reckoning Part Only. Dead Reckoning Part, don't ask any questions. End of sentence. Felt very McTierney-y to me.

And then I've listened to the 15 hours of Macquarie doing Empire Podcast breakdown stuff. And he's just like, I'm not riffing on anything, I'm not referencing anything. I think that style is often like a crutch or a gimmick if it's recognizable on a very surface level. I'm just trying to break down what do I need to convey, what I need to emotionally, narratively, in this shot, in this sequence. It's all just sort of problem solving for me and I'll do whatever I can to get there.

And I do think McTiernan has a similar approach, which results in that movie having a similar style to his. Where like so much of the quiet genius of McTiernan isn't his action sequences, it's like the way he makes dialogue sequences as exciting as the action sequences in his action movies. Without doing crazy Michael Bay, I'm just gonna keep the camera spinning and a thousand lights and filters, just like flash, flash, flash kind of stuff.

So much of what we, you know, all the great moments from Die Hard are actually not even the action, like the ones that are cited the most are not even the action scenes. Yeah. But that does make it all the more frustrating to watch a movie where the cut has been taken away from him to some degree.

Because even if it doesn't feel wildly compromised or like there is a secret masterpiece there, you're like, I just want to watch the guy unfettered. I want to watch him try to tell us how he thinks this can be conveyed. And when anything's interfering with that, it gets hard to pluck it out. What is your favorite McTiernan? Are you a McTiernan fan, generally? Probably Last Action Hero. Very David Anser.

Very David Anser. That movie was a huge deal to me. So how old were you? You're like a couple years older than me. We were similar ages. I was eight when that came out. I was 12 when that came out. Okay, okay. Yeah. I was a little too young for it.

I was not versed enough in Schwarzenegger at that moment to really get it, if that makes sense. I had not seen the requisite Schwarzeneggers yet. Well, it's also... When it comes out. We will have done the episode, but the weirdness of that movie is like, it's them doing the parody? Yeah, yeah, totally.

It's both of them? Right. And they're riffing on themselves, basically? I remember, can they get away with that? Yeah. I were buying into it so much that I thought the Hamlet was coming out. Like, I thought that there was gonna be a Schwarzenegger Hamlet.

And I didn't realize it should be. It's not too late. Yeah. That's what he should do now. Have you guys... People have fucking talked about Schwarzenegger so much. I've seen everything... I have not yet seen the movie. The doc.

Oh, it's so good. That's what I was gonna ask. Yeah. But I've just been enjoying his press tour. His Conan episode's incredible. His Conan episode is excellent. I just really want him to have the sly and creed... That's exactly what... ...performance. Exactly what I want to say.

I think he is so capable of it. Yeah, and I don't even need it to be prestige-y, by the way. No, not at all. But I feel like so often when he does step off the bench and act in something now, you're like, shouldn't this be a bigger deal? I think he leans to Mimi in the stuff he picks. And I don't know if that's his people's fault or whatever.

You know, like, but I... Yeah, anyway, I'm gonna tell you something off-mic about this. But, yeah, I just want him to do something like that. Or he does, like, this thing like Aftermath, that's like that movie that's like fairly sincere. Which like, right. Which is like not bad, but maybe just needed a better, you know, whatever, more sort of like oomph behind it

or something to really get across, I don't know. I love Garnet. All this recent press, I'm just like, there is some sort of pathos that he feels like he is more in touch with now, that someone needs to harvest. The wealth of perspective that he has in all of his myriad careers and viewpoints

and everything, and the fact that he's emerged from scandal or just everything. It is wild how candid he is now, and candid in a way that is very self-critical. Yeah, he can be self-critical. And yeah, I don't know. I just feel like I'm... The Sly Doc is kind of the bad version of the Arnie doc. I know you probably haven't watched it.

I haven't watched the slide doc yet. It has interesting stuff in it. But there's so much it doesn't want to talk about. And then in the 90s, I kind of lost it. And I'm like, no, no, no, buddy. Slow this down. We just did so much on Rocky and Rambo. We need to talk about the 90s.

He's like, I don't know. I, you know, then I tried with Copland and then we're like, and I'm like, no, no, we're not jumping to Copland. Like we're not doing that. And then they can't talk about Creed at all because like he'll just start ranting. So it's just not in it really. And anyway, what would Schwarzenegger's Creed be? Would it be something like, so like, is there an existing thing that you could make a legacy equal to?

It would be Conan. Sure. Which he still vaguely threatens to make. I mean, he's recently restarted that conversation. Conan is not the most sympathetic character, Conan. But there's the King Conan, I mean, the ending of Conker with him sitting on the throne and the sort of what now vibe has been this long promise of,

like, can you make the sad old Conan movie? And weren't the Wachowskis going to do it? At one point, that was the concept, yes. And then it sort of got killed by the Momoa version, and then the last year or two he's been like, I might actually want to do it. I mean, I think he's very good in Terminator Dark Fate. I do too. I just think that he's tried every version of going back there.

I'm just realizing, we're talking this much about Arnie, we will have for the last four months gone through McTiernan and Schwarzenegger and the Terminator movies on Patreon. Wait for that, wait for that. I mean, the seventh day? No, I think it has to be something new. I mean, it's not, it's not prestige in the way the Creed is, but like there was the rumor that he, Cameron was gonna have Schwarzenegger be the human villain for the Avatar sequels. Right.

And there was something so exciting about like, oh, using old Arnold. Yeah. And like suddenly having him be an energy guy versus then a physical guy. But I'm sure that conversation was like, okay, Arnie, so you ready to live in New Zealand for two years?

He's like, what? I'm not doing that. No. I have all my llamas. I must feed every day these fucking llamas. They come into the house My wife left me in fairness. Yeah, you can't you can't bring your you can't bring your pets in New Zealand He's saying is my daughter might keep him out and then she doesn't want to take care of the llamas anymore So now I have the llamas. We must stop Trump. Wait, excuse me these llamas They're hungry again. Um, the 13th Warrior, do we have anything else to say about the 13th Warrior before we move on to the release of the 13th Warrior?

Beowulf dies, succumbs to the poison of Grandel's mother, and like literally it's just like, oh by the way, thanks, Ahmad, like like you let him know about us, right? Yeah, but Neris is like right 10-4 right and you've sort of like forgotten because he's gotten so lost in the shuffle The movie then ends with them all saying goodbye Muslim and then him delivering a voiceover outro saying praise Allah And you're like yeah, right a loyal servant of God fucking Muslim right this movie Yeah, yeah, but apparently Disney was as you guys basically like, cut as much of that as you can. Yeah. And they probably were like, well, we can't cut it out right at the end.

And they were like, fine, but lose it wherever you can. Yes. There's almost nothing else I want to say other than that. I do like the call back to the funeral when they're all about to go into battle and they're all acknowledging they're about to die. And it was a line I remember that Omar Sharif has, which was, he's like, you will not see this again. It's the old way when the funeral happens, which is clearly an ADR line, but it's maybe

one of the only good instances of post-expository ADR actually benefiting the movie. I hate ADR. I hate ADR. You have a real ax to grind up an ADR. It drives me crazy. I've about to say something. I hate ADR. You have a real ax to grind over ADR. It drives me crazy. I've been guilty of it. Sure. Sometimes under duress.

And I despise it when you have actors back to the camera and you're just putting dialogue in it. But like, and I also obviously bad ADR always clangs off the backboard when you see it or whatever. But like you're a filmmaker, so you know it immediately. You know it. Like your eye is twitching the second you see it in any movie. I assume 90% of audiences are like,

-"Huh? Totally." -"What do you mean?" I think it would. But the vibes are weird. Even if they could never call it out. It's like, oh, I should be seeing someone's face right now. Should I? It can be done inoffensively. I don't know about well, but when it's done badly, it's so awful.

Yeah. I mean, I guess my just final thing is, I think this period of Omar Sharif where he's just like, I can't do these fucking bullshit movies anymore, right? And then even like Post-Holdago, he sort of like, quiets down for a couple years. He's the narrator of Roland Emmerich's 10,000 BC. And there's the other one, what is it? There's the sort of Roland Emmerich's 10,000 BC. And there's the other one,

what is it? There's the sort of like biblical epic he does, One Night with the King, where it just feels like this final decade of his life as people being like, we want to rent the like, the automatic like credibility of Omar Sharif in our sort of throwback epic. And every time, aside from just killing his soul, you're like, the last thing you wanna do in this movie is remind us of Lawrence of Arabia. It is such a foolhardy move to put him in there and then have you just immediately draw the comparison

to like, wow, they really don't make them like they used to, huh? Yeah, it's instantaneous in this movie. Instantaneous. Like a bunch of people and horses cresting a hill and Omar Sharif is there and you're like, not as good. And it starts with him,

he's irrelevant and discarded so quickly, but it just sets the tone in your mind of like, I immediately now know what this movie is failing to do. It's front of mind, I'm not gonna forget it. David. Yes. I'll admit, admit makes me a little self-conscious What hosting a podcast? Hosting a podcast that's produced by Ben Hossley because every time I walk into our studio I know I'm not gonna be the best dressed person in the world. Sorry. Yes. I just know it. It's a losing battle

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Go to indochino.com today and use code check. To get 10% off any purchase at $399 or more, that's I-N-D-O-C-H-I-N-O.com. Promo code check. The film was released on August 27th, 1999. August 27th. Where great movies like live. Although, wait, wasn't The Green Knight released around then?

Or am I making that up? It was... No, it was like late July. Late July is far different. Have you ever had a late August? I've had a mid August. Pitch Dragon was a mid August. But that mid August there there are gems there. You can't do the last weekend and now weirdly the first weekend of September has become a good weekend because of it.

Yeah, and like Barbarian and like, you know, there's usually some fun horror movie lurking there. But like last weekend of August is just the one doom weekend. That and first weekend of January, I feel like. Dumptown Theater is August 27th, no premiere. Right, no premiere, no press. No press. Thomas Crown Affair had come out three weeks earlier. Where is it in the box office?

It's sixth. Okay. It's sixth. What's it up to? It's made $50 million. It's doing just fine on its way to 70. What is 13th Warrior opening to? Well, it's opening to 10.

Okay. On its way to 32. So it actually kind of, I mean, legged it out is too strong, but at least it held. Yeah, what it actually kind of like I mean like did out is too strong, but at least it hell Yeah, what's crazy now is like like a failure Then still makes more money than a failure now. Yes, right Right because that movie today would drop off to two in its second week exactly you could see that movie being like you're right

68% drop and then third weekend. They're like we're getting this out of fear. It's like, you know, like, it's going right to VOD or whatever. Um, so, uh, there's another movie dominating the box office right now. Six Sense. Yes. So, not to spoil the box office. And how long, like how long did it have left as number one? Six Sense has been number one for four weeks and is going to be number one for an additional week before Stigmata comes and knocks it off.

Ironically, in its sixth week or was that the seventh week? In its sixth week. Wow. But who released the Sixth Sense? Touchdown... Hollywood. But it's Disney. Same thing.

Correct. And so they're kind of like, we're in the money, baby! And like Thirteenth Warrior comes out like they're kind of like, we're in the money, baby. And like 13th Warrior comes out, like, yeah, who cares? Like we're in the money. Like, you know, they're happy. Well, and Sixth Sense also just like a notoriously thrifty production where they got Bruce Willis for like a heavy discount. That movie is so insanely profitable for them.

And it's just rolling and rolling and rolling. But yeah, it's just so funny that like, Disney's basically covered their losses from this movie, and McTiernan has done the same with the movies that released three weeks earlier. Right. And McTiernan must have been doing press at that point. For Thomas Crown.

And they're like, oh, so what about this other movie you got coming out? And he's like, what? Don't talk about it. What movie? Yeah. Yeah, let's he's like, what? Don't talk about it. What movie? Yeah. Yeah, let's see. Like, Kulich, of course, once again, the one source on this movie basically said

there was no premiere. It was heartbreaking for all us fucking giant Viking guys, right, who like, you know, worked hard on this movie. The only good review is Lisa Schwartzbaum, who weirdly calls it audacious, exhilarating, wildly creative. So she dug it. Loved it. Everyone else basically negged it.

And it was one of those things where even the reviews are like arriving with a high budget. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's reputation. Two years on the shelf. Yeah. Um, number one at the box office, Griffin in its fourth week is the six cents. What's it making in its fourth week?

20 20 million dollars Because that's your here's why you're guessing that it was basically 20 20 20 20 right? Yeah, it like opened to 20 and just stayed there. Um, do you like six cents? Love the six cents? It's a fucking masterpiece. It's the best 13th warrior number two number two. Number three, opening to 10, as I said. Number three is a romantic comedy. In its fifth week, it's doing amazing business. Run Away Bride? Run Away Bride.

Run Away Bride. Yeah. A film I have not seen since 1999. I've never seen it. Do you know about the FedEx joke? I think so. What's the FedEx joke? I don't think I've ever seen a line crush as hard as the FedEx trick.

Yes, yes. Where she jumps on a FedEx truck. Do you remember the joke? I do. I saw it. I only know of this because of you talking about how hard it killed. I just think of it so much, but she jumps, she runs, is she going to run? Is she going to run? And then she does. She's doing the thing. Look at her. Right. She jumps in the back of a FedEx truck,

where's she going? I think Jolie Fisher, no, Rita Wilson, sorry, I always confused Jolie Fisher and Rita Wilson. So Rita Fisher's like, where's she going? Rita Fisher, you see. And Hector Elizondo, who is essentially the fucking Shaquille O'Neal of- Terry Marshall one-liners.

Where they're just lobbing it up for everybody, he's like, oh, I'm ready. Just deadpan says I don't know but she'll be there by 1030 tomorrow and like pretty good I just remember my entire audience basically like showering roses at the screen. It's so funny And he crushed it that was under crush it always crushed That might be a five-time run the podcast. Even just hearing you recite it still gets me there.

Oh, boy. Okay, so that's number three. Number three. Number four. Blair Witch? No. Blair Witch is eight. Okay.

It's been out for two months. I guess Blair Witch. Has made 128. At one point did start dropping off. Do you like the Blair Witch Project? Yeah, that's great too. Although, this was a summer I graduated high school. I was about to say, if I'm 13, you're basically right.

So I was 18 when it came out, or the summer, and it was like a milestone summer, not just because of 99 is famously, the best movie of the year ever, is that the name of the book? Yes. And it was also just a pivotal year in my life. You know, the best year ever, best movie year ever, is that the name of the book? Yeah. And it was also just a pivotal year in my life. So like, I saw every single movie that summer

and have fond memories of all of them because of where I was in life. I just look at these box offices, even the flops like the 13th Warrior, I'm just like, yeah, we never had it so good. Number four, it's an acidic Hollywood comedy. A great film. About Hollywood?

Yeah. It's also from Hollywood. Bofinger. Ah, the great Bofinger. Um, which obviously was just a medium hit. But enough of a hit, and I think enough of a critical hit, that everyone just kind of came out of that one looking good. And a movie that is, I find find so totemic for anyone I know who works in film.

I've been really wanting... That is one of the great depictions of... I haven't re... I haven't watched it in the past 15 years. I really want to see it now, having been on more sets and experienced more. I just want to re... Maybe I'll do that tonight. It's so good. And Murphy is... It's one of the best performances in the history of movies.

He's so fucking funny. Number five of the box office. We'll do it one day. Bowfinger? I mean, we might do Bowfinger one day, Frank Oz. I'm gonna put it on the bracket. Yeah, but no, no, we'll do this film as a commentary one day because we decided to include it in a trilogy

that it is not a part of. Twinkle twinkle. What's it called? Mickey Blue Eyes. Yes. Do you know about our Jelly trilogy, David? No. Have you seen Analyze This? Yes.

You're familiar with the character Jelly? Do you remember Jelly? Played by Joe Vitarelli. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so Joe Vitarelli is also in Mickey Blue Eyes, playing a Jelly-esque character. Yes. So we've decided. Right, we made an offhand joke at one point that maybe we do analyze this and analyze that on

Our patreon so we could say we're doing a little this little that Right Alex Ross Perry has loved that joke hold held on to it for years Pushed us to actually come into doing it at one point We were like to just feels a little slight for only two movies so we have canonized Mickey blue eyes in which Joe Viterati plays a very similar role as to our own Jelly trilogy just have fun with Mickey blue eyes. We would It's a total rando you're not really you this. Really? You're not. Who is it?

Kelly Macon. Okay, no, I was actually not gonna get him. No. Were you about to say something about Mickey Mouse? The director of Kids in the Hall of Brain Candy. I was gonna say that when you said Jelly Trilogy, my brain instantly, before explaining it, went to like notable movies with jelly in them.

And the first thing was Jelly of the Month Club and Christmas Vacation. And this is all in the span of like the two seconds before you revealed it was actually the character. Yeah. I was like trying to think of like, what other movies have jelly? What other movies have jelly?

Gossard Park has Jam. I just rewatched Gossard Park yesterday. Has Tom Hollander eating jam in a jam closet. Hmm. It sure does. That's part of a jam trilogy that we'd have to split into its own thing. Number six, Thomas Crown Affair. Well. Which I remember loving.

It is so good. And when you mentioned that McTiernan has a fine art point of view, like there literally, because if I recall, he picked all the paintings, including of course, The McReed. But also that movie makes so much sense as the guy walking straight off of 13th Warrior,

this movie still hasn't been released, and he's like, I know I have like an atomic bomb that is going to get dropped at some point. Fascinating. I need to direct this next movie like my life depends upon it. It just has to be uncomplicated like fucking Home Run. Number seven. There's a lot of flops opening this week. So this is new this week. The weekend that started the box office game in our podcast is the Sixth Sense weekend, where Sixth Sense hits

and everything else bombs. Yes, exactly. After a very big summer. Everything's just kind of bouncing off the Sixth Sense and into the garbage. August was like a dumping ground and like you have the July movies staying strong, you have Sixth Sense killing it. Thomas Crown was the one that sort of surprisingly held,

and then they're just dumping bullshit. So I've never seen this film. It's a Michael Reimer film. I know Michael Reimer best because he worked on Battlestar Galactica. Okay. It's called In Too Deep with Omar Epps and LL Cool J. Oh, sure. Don't know much about it, but I think it's like, Omar Epps is an undercover cop, LL Cool J's a gangster.

It's kind of like New Jack City but worse. I guess. I have a very distinct memory of watching it, but it was like, my memory is that it was like a year later. I'm shocked that it came out in 99. I'm just picturing someone going into studios and here's the pitch. It's like New Jack City but worse. That that was part of the sell for the movie.

But you know, good enough. Right. And then Michael Reimer went on to do Queen of the Damned. Which I remember ever being like, like, what a strange jump forward. I mean, also just like, why... Why, like, hand that property, no offense to Michael Reimer, but to like kind of a journeyman guy, like, whatever.

Number eight is Blair Witch. Number nine opening this weekend bombing is The Astronaut's Wife. Like, a huge bomb. Like, that movie was expensive. Number 10 opening this weekend bombing is Albert Brooks' The Muse. A giant bomb.

Pretty funny movie, in my memory. Like, haven't seen it in years. It almost used to be Tax Right off season. And number 11 opening outside of the top 10, Dudley Do-Right. Yeah. With Brendan Fraser. Colossal flop.

Giant flops everywhere. But like, in an era where the internet and internet fan culture is still so nascent, right, is basically just Harry Knowles and such. At this point in time, you're like, if you just cram a movie that you know is a mess into the last two weeks of August, you can kind of throw up your hands and go like, well, competition.

And you're like, your competition was other flops. But studios would just be pushing 10 crappy movies into these final corridors. But how much did Deadly D-Write ultimately leg out to? What was its? It opened to three, made it to 9.8. So even a 3x multiplier. Not terrible.

It left Black Hat in the dust. Yeah. The Muse opened to four and made it to 11. Okay. Astronaut's Wife opened to four and made it to 10. Not great. No. And Into Deep opened to four and made it to 14.

Word of mouth sensation. But then of course, yes, you have the Sixth Sense, Runaway Bride, and the Blair Witch Project are just all massive, massive, massive hits. Well, and also just three weeks later, like in the graveyard are Dick, Iron Giant, Mystery Men. Like those movies are out of theaters now. Mrs. Tingle was taught, but she did not learn a lesson. She didn't learn a lesson.

Like you said, Iron Giant, Mystery Men, Broke Down Palace, Lake Placid, which like wasn't actually a hit. They kind of pretended it was, and it's still mentioned often. But it didn't actually do well. You know, like Drop Dead Gorgeous, that was a bomb. Too dark, good movie to be clear. Two dark Dunst August comedies. Obviously like Eyes Wide Shut came out a couple of months ago

and did okay for a three hour conspiracy thriller sex movie, but like, you know, underperformed in a way. But even listing all of these movies, and you know, in a way you could say it's puncturing the myth of 1999 as being the best movie year ever, but like, I have fond memories of all of these movies. Yeah, that's the thing.

Even if they're just fine or even if they're bad, I remember. Do you have fond memories of Inspector Gadget? No. Deep Blue Sea? Deep Blue Sea, definitely. 100% Deep Blue Sea. The thing with 1999 is... Deep Blue Sea is to CGI as the 13th warrior is to, like, not CGI. Deep Blue Sea is like, can we just add some more CGI in this scene? Like, it's gonna look terrible. Ah, who cares?

We can get away with it. No, the thing with 1999 is, like, you take out the masterpieces, it still just feels like maybe the last year where, like, inarguably, film is at the center of the monoculture in America. Right? Like, it's not just one movie that's captured everyone's attention or whatever, but you're like, people were excited about the Oscar movies, they were excited about all these

summer blockbusters, there was even interest in which movies were flopping. Like, it was just peak kind of populist film culture. And you'd go see all of them. Like, the fact that the movie that opened outside of the top 10 still made it to over 10 million is like, people went. It's this dumb stat I will throw out, but like, I've said this before,

The Haunting and Sixth Sense were the only two movies between May and August that opened to number one and didn't make $100 million. Wait, Sixth Sense? I'm sorry, not six cents. Eyes wide shut. Yeah. Haunting and eyes wide shut.

Haunting stinks. Yeah. Alex was trying to sell us on that not stinking recently. He's trying to, he's developing some of these things. He was doing this to you too? Yes. He was kind of going like Jan DeBont, like, you know, disrespected and I was like, no.

As much as I love speed and enjoy Twister. Given the exact amount of respect he deserves. I don't think, like the haunting stinks in my memory. It's, all I remember, I was telling Alex, all I remember is Liam Neeson getting drowned by a giant statue and at that point checking out because ghosts shouldn't be able to do that. And I was like, very logically, I can accept faces appearing in the banister or whatever,

but I can't accept the statue in the garden grabbing the limousine and dragging it. I was just saying, why has that guy directed nothing in 21 years? Like, McTune and you're like, he went to jail. He had several flops. He locked his hands off. I understand why he disappeared. Yandabant hasn't done anything since Tomb Raider 2,

not a commercial. No, he hasn't, yeah.ant hasn't done anything since Tomb Raider 2, not a commercial. No, he hasn't, yeah. He hasn't done, like, a foreign film. He hasn't, like, directed TV. He may have just quit because he didn't want to do it anymore and he had money. It's just fascinating. He just, like, retired to some Dutch farmhouse

and was like, I made Twister. I mean, he's, like, opened a restaurant probably. Like, he's, like, a massively successful chef. I just think of those guys usually... All I want to do is roast squash for people. Usually you find out like, oh, he directed one of those Antonio Banderas Redbox movies,

and it's depressing to know that that's what Yandaband's doing, and it's like, no, he seemingly just walked away. Chillin'. I will say that unfortunately, Alex's prodding on this has made me think, do I need to watch the only Yandaband I've ever seen, which is Lara Croft 2, which I did not see on account of nobody liked it.

Yes. So I always figured I had to skip that, but now I'm like, do I have to see that and make sure it's not a hidden gem? Have you seen the cradle of life? I saw it when it opened and I watched the first ten minutes on Netflix, when it was on Netflix within the past five years. Because sometimes I just want to see what movies were like then.

Like, so crazy, like, even in... That was 2002? Three. Even the leap from then to now, it's like, it's so crazy. Yes, yes, yes. Even in... That was 2002? Three. Three? Even the leap from then to now, it's like, it's huge. Like, you look at the beginning of that movie, and you're like, that's unreleasable. Uh, that's making me want to see it more. Like, that's intriguing.

There's this big earthquake sequence, and it's very cheap. Like, nowadays it would be like like giant CGI cracks in the earth, just splitting open and cities falling in. And in 2003, they were still just shaking the camera a lot. Hell yeah. Again? Longwind's camera shake.

How to rent Lara Croft Tomb Raider, the Cradle of Life. Now, there's a colon and a hyphen. Yeah. So it's colon after... Lara Croft colon Tomb Raider hyphen The Cradle of Life. They didn't have the guts to just call it Tomb Raider. Both of them, you know, it was only the Vikander movie where they're finally like, we think you know what Tomb Raider is.

Drop the Lara Croft as Kander. Yes. The Thirteenth Warrior, yes, obviously, like the next film we're covering is Rollerball. But in a way, the next film he made was the Thomas Crown Affair. But obviously, this came out after. This is a bit of a tenet in terms of release order. It almost feels unfair to do this after Thomas Crown, because Thomas Crown is the one that lingers in it.

And indeed, I was like, I thought it came out. And it's his response film. Yeah. Yeah. To at least the experience of making this. Roller Ball is a film I have never seen. Same. Again, didn't see because at the time the word was skippable. Yeah, I was like excited to see it.

Me too. And everyone was like, you cannot. You can't go? You can't allow. You're not allowed to go. Did you see? I saw Rollerball and I saw Basic. Which I thought, again, I thought it was inverted.

I thought Basic. Basic is the last one. The last one. Basic I saw on a DVD. But those are the same year as well? No, it's 2002 and 2003. I mean, who knows when Rollerball was actually released. Like maybe, no, yeah.

But Basic I saw on DVD... in, like... like the Adirondacks on an eight-inch television. I have no memory of it at all. I know it has a twist. I always get confused between basic General's Daughter, the two Travolta military movies, and then one other... Rules of engagement?

Yeah, they all kind of have combined in my head. Those three and the Friedkin movie The Hunted. I see, there's a chain there. All in the super me. I confused the engagement in The Hunted. I had a whole angle that I was gonna talk about how if McTiernan, if Ears of the Dead had been successful. Oh, we're gonna swap everyone around and it'll be good?

Oh no, okay. No, no, no. If Ears of the Dead had been successful. And was released under that title. Yes, and McTiernan could have gone on a similar path to what Friedkin was doing in that era. Mm. Because he started to do really interesting things

following the failure of Jade. And getting the chance to make things like... Um... Well, after Jade, he does Rules of Engagement and The Hunted. And The Hunted's great. Well, my memory... Both of those movies are good. My memories are great.

And both of those movies are him taking like a pulpy, mediocre Hollywood script and doing some cool things with amazing actors. And The Hunted's another one of those movies where one man dies in front of another and... Your favorite. My favorite trope. Yeah.

A man sitting down to die and his peer slash enemy slash friend watching and maybe holding his hand. Have you ever done this in one of your movies? I Haven't because I've always been trying to do the opposite which has been like this person's not worth caring about So like Ain't the body saints was all about Casey Affleck's care thinking he'd have that type of death and being like actually no you're not worth it Yeah, and then Peter Pan same thing, was like, actually you suck. Like, you don't even have a lot of deaths in your movies now that I'm thinking about it. No, I mean, Green Night sort of again,

isn't also a counter to that, it takes you right up to the moment of death and that one worked, I think. Yeah, it works, good movie. But yeah, I'm always like, I'm like, for better or worse, being like, how can I puncture the mythology rather than like, embellish it? Yeah, it works. Good movie. But yeah, I'm always like, I'm like, for better or worse, being like, how can I puncture the

mythology rather than like embellish it? Right. But maybe you should do this. But maybe I should embellish the mythology. Maybe that's what I've been missing. You need heat, you know? Heat, of course, the ultimate example of two men reaching out to each other is one dies. Yep.

It's the best. It's certainly where my brain goes. Just throw some Mobium there, you know, over it. Moving over still waters. Yeah, exactly. But you know, it is funny to think, yeah, Friedkin's little 2000s run there is interesting. It's kind of like when Coppola did the Rainmaker and stuff.

Yeah. Where he's like, well, let me just do this, and you're like, hey, I like that. Yeah, but the Rainmaker's on the line for it. It is, I know. It's only if Jack was good. Right. But Jack is like, no one could protect him. But Jack's before the line for it is I know that's what's only if Jack was good, right? But Jack is like no one but Jack's before it ain't right Yeah, like if only you know if he had like three and obviously wearing a wearing a bra socracula shirt today

Like if Coppola had like three Solid that was my surprise and re in watching not re watching watching rainmaker for the surprise I've been telling you that movies good for her, but I'm like this one feels like a reawakening for him. This doesn't feel like for higher work. How did it not lead to more? And then his response to that movie is great. I'm out of debt, the wine's selling, I don't need to make another movie for nine years. That chair's got my name all over it. I'm out. I'm gonna sit. Oh man, you've got it. You should do not the whole, well you could do the whole career, but just do Do like the four like Youth Without Youth, Tetro, Twixt, and then Megalopolis.

Yeah. The four self-financed, well I can know he's self-financed lots of times. You gotta do all of them. You gotta do One From the Heart. I think we would just do all of him and smush the first four into two episodes, right? Or even one episode. No, we can't do that.

Finian's Rainbow, Rain People. So it's Dementia 13 and You're a Big Boy Now are obviously going into one episode. And then I think Finian's Rainbow and the Rain People could probably be in one episode. And then he made this movie called The Godfather. The Godfather? After that, you're in great territory.

Captain EO goes on Patreon. You do the New York stories on Patreon, right? That'd be fun if we ended up being like, yeah, yeah, we're going to do New York stories on Patreon. Two out of three. Well, I was going to say we do it. Twilight's on the movie. Exactly. We're like, yeah, every part of this, but one except for the one. Yeah, he'd be good. Yeah. I'm excited for that Megalopolis. Very excited.

I hope it's good. Yeah. I hope it's just, I don't think it will be, I just don't want it to be like the Gilliam Don Quixote movie. Yeah. Since where everyone was like, oh. Yeah, it came out and I was like, hmm, this is a C. Like, how could that be? I mean, we'll never stop talking about how weird it is that that movie is not great.

It's available to watch at any moment. Not a disaster. Yeah, yeah, we were like, it's actually all right, but not that good. How long between its release, after its release did you see it? Because that was the other thing, I was like, oh, it came out, I haven't seen it yet.

Yeah. I should watch that. I think I saw it at a screening. Because I was like, well, I should watch that. I think I saw it at a screening. Because I was like, well, I gotta see it. I've been waiting for this movie my whole life. Right? Yeah. I'll go see it. And then I saw it and I was like, hmm.

Also, if you have a passion project you've been trying to make for 20 years, the key is Adam Driver. That is true. Yep, Ferrari. Is there a third one? Megalopolis. Well, Megalopolis, true. Yep. Ferrari. Is there a third one? Megalopolis. Well, Megalopolis, right. Yeah.

65. They were trying to make that for 25 years. It was originally 45. Did you see 65? No. See, this is the problem, Larry, when you come on the show is we don't see you enough. So then the episodes get this extra 40 minutes of us being like, what else? What else?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw 65 in Germany. Really? And I saw it in German because most movies there are dubbed. So you have to seek out the English language screenings. And I was like, I'm driving versus dinosaurs. Like, this probably works pretty well. How much data are you going to need?

Right. Should be a gentleman's six. It actually was great. Really? Better maybe? And so then I reached out to the directors to say, hey, I saw your movie in Germany, had a great time. And they were like, the movie was written to be in an alien language.

And it was going to be 100% in an alien language with no subtitles. No subtitles? And that's what we all set out to make. And right before shooting, they... Sony was like, you have to do it in English. I just imagine some guy in a chair at Sony going, what, huh? Like waking up and taking the hat off.

Totally. They're like, you 100% had the better viewing experience and you saw it the way we intended because you didn't understand what anyone was saying. That is interesting because I do think that movie would function better, right, as just like the broadest emotional strokes. And that's interesting to hear.

Wow. But they might not want that out there, so. Yeah, maybe we cut that out. Just a long sustained beep. That would be funny if you're like, I saw 65 in Germany. Beep! Just for like two minutes.

And then we're like, at the end we're like, wow, that's crazy. That's interesting. And then people would say, what, what, was 65 like in Germany? Was there something different about it? I won't stop thinking about what you just said. All right.

Uh, Larry, thank you for being here. It's been great to be back. Uh, you gotta come back sooner. Yeah. You've been busy and there was a pandemic. Yeah. But you gotta come back sooner. Yeah, and I will, you know, last time I was on,

I left that night, went to go see Moulin Rouge with Alex and Ana. Oh, sure, on Broadway. Yeah, on Broadway. And then at the intermission, I checked my phone and there was a phone call saying, cancel your plans tomorrow, we have to have a green light meeting

because Disney wants to make Peter Pan. So I'm curious what's gonna happen tonight. Right, wow. What will get lobbed your way. Yes, exactly, like what good or bad decision I will make in the next 24 hours. And I, so there's a lot of potential out there. Wow, wow.

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Cars reboot, that's what they're gonna pitch cars for. But whatever it is, whatever it is, Forky's gonna be in it. Guys, if you don't know this. We have to acknowledge it quickly. Last time you were on, we're talking about Forky.

I go, Forky's a star, people should put him in more movies. You go, I will do that. Right, so Green Night had not yet been made or? We'd made it, but there were still a couple, we did like three days of pickups. Pickups, yeah. And I made sure Forky was in those pickups. It's unfortunate that Robert Redford doesn't like eat with Forky at a diner at some point. That would have been fun.

The only reason to go do a special edition of The Old Man and the Gun would be to... Put the Forky in his mouth. Exactly. Also, you could change all the guns to walkie talkies. Yes. That's a subtle reference to E.T. But don't change the title. But not change the title.

We didn't publicly acknowledge this for years, and you would text me from set and you were like, here's the new forky The art department's whipped up. We have I have a so in green I'm a pirate forky right somewhere in my Nice there's during the puppet show one of the children is holding a medieval for can you see it? It's very small in the frame. It's like dead center. I have a pan It's like in there a fair amount here pan six lead here pan was In Pier Pan, it's like in there a fair amount. Pier Pan was on set a lot, and one of the Loth kids was carrying Forky around a lot. There's one sequence where he's in multiple pieces.

And we shot so much. It's a kid that has lots of little jokes. And so we'd always just like, have a response to this. And we shot way more that has a lot more Forky in there. But Forky does, he peeks out. He has Forky in your new movie. And Forky will be in the new movie. Because you've been texting me about like going through the design stages of how forky will fit into the next movie.

You've committed to this thing a hundred percent. I've, I've, I've... Do you think you should make a future movie so there can be some kind of like cyber-forky? Oh, totally. I'm trying to think of like other kinds of forks. Totally, yeah. But the funniest thing was like someone on the Reddit posted like, cause people will be like, I just listened to this episode from four years ago

Was this thread ever picked up right and this is after Peter Pan had come out Peter Pan and Wendy and they were like Larry made this joke about putting forky in all these movies I guess he never lived up to it and I texted you and I was like am I allowed to tell them This feels so annoying that no one's found it right and the guy's sniffing and I, and I just posted, and I was like, he's in there. He's in both of the movies. And Peter Pan, it's hard to see, but if like Green Knight, if you know what to look for, there's one spot to look for. Yes.

Yeah. Is Tony Hale aware of this? No. Wow. Do we want to make him aware? Yes. I feel like he should be. He should be.

I feel like we can tell him somehow. It's not speaking roles. It's not like he's losing work. Like rub six together and find some connection to Tony Hale. It's a tribute. It's a tribute. I mean, we know Tim Simons.

Yeah. Tim, hey, you're in your car right now probably texting us via Siri, which is what you do when you listen to these episodes. We get texts from Tim like, Griffin, does your mom, did your mom like me when I was on the podcast sent with Siri? I'm just like, you had to say that aloud to Tim. So yeah, call Tony if you, if you're friends with him. The other, the other thing with Tim is today, this morning, he texted us something that

sounded like a huge insult was coming. Right. And it seemingly was just him being nice, but every sentence he said ended with a tone that felt like it was gonna be followed by but it was like guys I really like listening to you talk about movies, and I'm glad we're friends. Yeah, and I thought he was like, but but he never said it And then the next text was like I think you're very nice and very smart and we were like, what's what's this hammer you're holding? The most cutting thing is about to come down on me. All right. Okay. David, you're the best.

Thank you. Excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I had to take that. Lowry, you're the best. You are. Thank you for being here. We'll have you on again sooner.

Thank you for being here and thank you for volunteering as you always do. Well not Sleepy Hollow so much, but This and Truth About Charlie, to take the movie no one was really, you know, like, pumping for. But I also, I didn't say to you, here's what's still in play. I said, McTiernan is on deck, and you said 13th Warriors is on. This was the one that I would be, like,

most excited to rewatch right now. Yeah, yeah. Uh, no, it fit, it fit perfectly. Thank you for being here, and thank all of you out there for listening Please remember to rate review and subscribe Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media helping to produce the show Thank you to Ben Frisch for jumping in today. You're welcome. We'll call you back in when we do words of virtue

Yep, got to now inevitable books. Yep on the spreadsheet Got to now inevitable. Yep on the spreadsheet Thank you to lame Montgomery in the great American novel for our theme song Alex Baron and AJ McKeon for our editing JJ birch for our research Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our artwork You can go to blank check pod comm for links to some real nerdy shit Like our patreon blank check special features where we do franchise commentaries. If you liked us talk about Arnold for five minutes there are now five episodes of that. Yep. So that's the thing you can listen to there. Tune in next week for Rollerball. Yeah and as always. And as always I wish

Forky had been in the 13th Ward.