Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Elephant Man with Alex Ross Perry

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

We’re getting in touch with our emotions this week, as Alex Ross Perry joins us to talk about Lynch’s deeply-felt, sensitively-rendered 1980 classic THE ELEPHANT MAN. Is this the most “normal” movie in Lynch’s filmography? What does “normal” mean, anyway? As with all Alex episodes, questions are posed and hotly debated, such as: What filmmakers, aside from David Lynch, made their most important work in the later part of their careers? What is the Lynch film that young people vibe with most strongly now? Did Michael Jackson actually attempt to purchase the Elephant Man’s bones? When will the Cinematrix puzzle get rid of the godforsaken “Rotten Tomatoes score” category? What does David Sims have against the famous David Foster Wallace profile of David Lynch?   This episode is sponsored by: FACTOR (Factormeals.com/check50) Quince (quince.com/check) DrinkTrade.com/Check (CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck  Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

Blank Jack with Griffin and David Blank Jack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Jack I am not an elephant I am not an elephant. I am not an animal. I am an audio program. I am a podcast.

Is that insensitive? It had to be done. It had to be done. Of course, it's the famous line from the elephant man. Yes. The film we're talking about today. I don't think it's insensitive. I don't think it's insensitive.

I don't think so. But is like, you know, he's the elephant, his name is the elephant man. The movie is called the elephant man. Correct. That's insensitive. That is? And yet also it's sort of like, yes, but of course that's how we discuss this person and his legacy.

If you found what I just did insensitive, I suggest you hold a mirror up to your own face. Wow. Coming right at people who might find that insensitive. Also maybe throw your complaints at Lieutenant Frank Drebben first, who made that joke 35 years ago. It is funny that this film was mainstream enough that the naked gun parodied it. complaints at Lieutenant Frank Drebben first who made that joke 35 years ago. It is funny that this film was mainstream enough that the naked gun parodied it.

And the critic or the Simpsons? Who had the, I mean, it's the kind of thing they, was it on the critic? There was like a very notable elephant man cartoon. Yes. I think it was. A gag in my life. The critic, yeah. Let's see.

I'm seeing if, oh, well, actually, right. That's not helpful to just type elephant man the critic That just looks like rotten tomatoes sure problem with it They didn't think about that when they made a bad SEO add the words Jay Sherman. Yeah, Jay Sherman. I Just feel like one of those shows had an elephant One stinks It stinks. Well, Darrell strawberry, of course get, gets elephant man disease from drinking the juice, right? Okay, this is this is the critic parodying elephant man. Pretty good Anthony Hopkins, like, you know,

Oh, the caricature? They do a good job drawing him, right? Yeah, but it's Jay Sherman and he's like standing and they're all like poking at him. He just looks like Jay Sherman. It doesn't look like it was that funny. No offense to Jay Sherman and the critic, which is obviously often funny. But it's not making the highlight real. So what's something you would say if something wasn't that good? David, what would you say?

It stinks. Okay. Is Charles Travier the one who gets the elephant titus? Yeah, he gets the Ken Griffey. No, it's Ken Griffey who gets the engorged head, yes, from drinking the tonic too much. Right, but yeah. Wait, so what happens to Darryl Strawberry? Now I'm trying to remember.

That's what I'm looking, his wiki, his Simpsons wiki is very thin. Are you better than me? I've never met you, but yes. Obviously a very funny line. I wanna see if either of you can recall this, because I'd say it's surprising what his outfit is. I wanna go through some of the ones I do remember.

Doesn't he get sent to work somewhere? OK. Don Mattingly, he burns keeps telling him to like shave that beard or whatever it is. And he keeps like shaving all of his body hair. It's a cyborg. Right, it's a cyborg, right. And he's never satisfied.

Yes. Great gag. Great gag. I think Ozzie Smith ends up in like a sort of vortex. Like he goes to like some like some like tourist attraction. It's just like a spinning vortex. What else? I think, is it Steve Sachs who gets punched by Barney over which British prime minister

is better Lord Palmer sooner, pit the elder? It sounds right. But also the kind of thing you would remember. No, apparently that's Wade Boggs. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I don't think I remember anyone else Okay, obviously there are many more fates. There's a lot of players Okay, so the twist is that Darrell strawberry is both the one who goes to work and just starts gigging Right, he likes the power point, but also nothing bad happens to him. He just takes to the power plant doesn't want to play baseball he's the only one who doesn't have an unfortunate fate Steve Sachs is pulled over by Eddie and Lou and

Murder faces six consecutive life sentences right there. They like sweat him in the interrogation room Mike skies scosi Socia Mike Mike Scosha has radiation poisoning right Ken Griffey gets gigantic from the tonic Jose Kinseko Gets caught saving things out of the house fire. He keeps having to go back in. Right. Wade Boggs punched by Barney over the prime minister argument, Ozzie Smith stuck in the Springfield mystery spot, the void.

Roger Clemens thinks he's a chicken because of the hypnotist and Don Mattingly goes down the rabbit hole of shaving himself. Shaving himself. Okay, great. Such a funny episode. A really, just an appalling tangent to have already. Let me see what the clock says here. Four minutes.

Alex, do you think this is one of the 10 best films ever made? I do. And here we are running down the list of the Byrne's isotopes, fates. That is appropriate for, I wouldn't say for this episode, but for an episode you are on. It is allowed. We have talked about it. You do, 50% of your communication is done

through Simpsons references, is that fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. Good number. Yeah. A gentleman's 50. Unrecognized sometimes or unlawed. Sometimes you're looking for a round of applause in the group text that you do not get. Is that fair to say? Only when I'm very quick on the draw with a very bizarre reference. The speed is always impressive. That's what I aim for. Yeah. I'm very low energy today because I've been sick and I'm very nervous about...

I was also sick all last week I'm nervous about this episode. Well, I just don't really have the fire in me right now and Yesterday when I was describing my sickness to David he said sounds like what Griffin's had and I said I feel like I currently feel how I think Griffin always feels that's probably true You've got a case. I think I'm my stomach hurting. I haven't eaten for like five days. That's a classic case of the griffs One of those things for it's like what is it? It's like and I haven't eaten for like five days. That's a classic case of the grifts. One of those things where it's like, what is it? It's like, I don't know, man. There's a lot of breaches of the wall here.

It's just not working. Like, it's not just like, I have a cold. It's just straight up not working. This is the best I've felt in five days, but I still don't have a lot of juice. The way you feel right now is probably my high water mark. It's the best I ever feel. Well, as my buddy said, as a kid not much older, he's like, our max is 60% once you get to that point.

You don't have anything above that anymore. No. But maybe that's a good way to talk about the elephant man, about struggle and, no, I don't know. Yeah, a man whose max was pretty low. He had a really tough time. The great tragedy of his life, a low max. Word this episode is gonna be kind of insensitive to the elephant man

I do feel We have a cold and I'm like, it's kind of like being the elephant man. John Merrick John Merrick. Yes, Joseph Merrick just FYI, but you know, you know, you say his name wrong if you ever had a movie with a like a disabled protagonist a handicapped, any movies that you have to not dance around but address the fact that you were constantly... No, maybe not. You count gum?

Yeah, you can count gum. One of the most sensitive films ever made. Yeah, I feel like culture kind of made it... Culture? What's the way to describe that? Culture just kind of made clowning on the mentally disabled totally acceptable because of how popular that movie was. Yeah, well, but also it's because it's like creating this sort of like magical condition

that is so sort of like both nebulous and all encompassing that you're like, what are you actually making fun of here? It felt like there was this collective cultural mulligan of like, what's Gump? I don't know. He's just weird. You guys ever think about what it would have been like if Gump had encountered Merrick? Oh, I think about it all the time. He probably would have inspired him in some way, or at least inspired the Carnys to give

up their cruel pursuits. Yeah, yes. Yeah, what would Gump have taught Merrick to do? Oh, like it's like... We might have to move on. Yeah, I think we... It's actually the worst alleyway we've backed ourselves into. Right, like it's like to move on. Yeah, I think we back there. It's awful. Listen, to be clear, he's not weird.

He's intellectually disabled in the film and the film is clear about that. I will say it's not like a doctor ever says that, but that's what's going on with them. They make it kind of magical. Yes, that movie is a nightmare. I don't want to talk about it. It's so bad. Like, and the way it treats that is, is a nightmare. I don't want to talk about it. It's so bad. Like and the way it treats that is is not great. Listen, I would say. Listen. So that's the only other No, I'm looking at our episode list. Of course the judge.

That's another one. It's the exact same thing. There's something up with him, right? You know, like oh, well, you know. But it's like magically, narratively, convenient. It's whatever it needs to be in any given scene I think there's a lot of movies we've covered with this and we're just sort of blanking it out because it always is like You know I remember that yeah I mean, I guess we'll talk about the elephant man. Well, excuse me Michael Moore and lucky numbers. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah. Yeah Look, there's there's the fulcrum point the first half of your career on blank check was defined by picking That's another one. Yeah. Yeah. That's right, Ben.

Look, there's the fulcrum point. The first half of your career on Blank Check was defined by picking the least essential movie of every director. And early on, you sort of called your shot of what your game was and you said, like, if you guys ever do McTiernan, I'm doing basic. We talked about split, obviously. That was a very, like, contentious,ious, heated discussion of how much should we be using Dissociative Identity Disorder to be a crazy supervillain who has multiple personalities

and is like, I'm a baby. Hello, I'm a lady, which is what's going on in Split. Correct. Now, in Split, I think that is over the top and interesting in its silliness. I wish they pushed it 10% further. Me going, hello, I'm a lady is basically what's happening in Split. Yes. Hello.

I just like thinking about that. Well, that's what Mrs. Doubtfire says. I don't know who you're pulling right now. This movie is not a classic, like, oh, I forget he directed that. Well, this is what's interesting, right? So like that was the first half of your career to the extent that when we did McTiernan Finally recently, I should mention this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby, this is a mini-series on the films of David Lynch. It is called Twin Pods Firecast with me. Today we're talking about his second theatrical film. Oh god, this is only our second episode. Okay, now we gotta lock in to the elephant man. Yes! Serious work.

The Elephant Man. Book of Henry. His guarantor. Does that have any depictions of... No? Like, that's not its issue. It has other issues. I guess Henry has, he's sort of like super smart or something.

Yeah, he's got smartest boy disorder. Yeah. You don't wanna talk about old Henry? You wanna talk about Henry? No! People do need to start gamifying like, the episode Bingo Cards and it's like, I had Book of Henry coming up

Ten minutes into the elephant man episode I get that on my bingo card. Right. I actually I was a 400 to one and I laid a hundred bucks on that I'm rich as hell. Yeah, I feel like that's that that's the next blank check game. Look we all saw is Trevor making another movie Yeah, yeah, he's making a batch We all saw... Is Trevorrow making another movie? Yeah, he's making a Bledch. Should we call this now at the time of our recording that we think by the time the episode comes out Trevorrow is directing Blade?

No, I think he's doing some... He's doing a magician spy espionage movie with Benedict Cumberbatch. That does ring a bell. David, if you don't want to go on the tangents, you need to stop bringing up nothing but tangents. Yeah, David. I like the tangents and I support them. And we'll come back to Travarro. Okay, we'll come back to Travarro.

He's a Travarro or Trevarro? It's Travarro. Like tomorrow, that's how we introduce ourselves. Travarro. Right. Sorry, Colin. We were wrong the first couple years of the show. And then when we many are wrong. When we released our episode here today, Gone Travaro...

You're being really neat to this guy. But for the first time, we also showed him the respect of getting his name, right? There was a trade-off there. Listen, the point is, at some point your game shifts. And the last four times you've been on the show, this episode included, you have picked one of like the core movies of your life. The run of Halloween, Clock of Orange, Fight Club, Elephant Man. I know, I don't want to keep doing that, but I guess you're finally getting around to the

Titans. The Cannon. Yeah. Right. And this was one of your Sight and Sound 10? Yeah. You don't have to sound so despondent about it. No, that's just my energy level today. By default, I assume this is your favorite Lynch movie.

It is, yeah. I think this is mine as well, and I cannot help but feel like, is that a basic asshole opinion? Not an asshole opinion. It does feel like this is weirdly kind of his forgotten movie now for how beloved it was at the time and how much it kind of makes his career. Straight story in this are clear, the clear winners and six years ago I would have picked

that just as a bit. Sure. But straight story now feels like it has overtaken this as, oh, it's weird. That's his normal movie. Right. Where like straight story, I think almost gets more recognition as part of the Lynch oeuvre than this does, where this is almost seen as aberration.

And I think this movie is such a fascinating, like, perfect match of material and person to meet in the middle. I think that way as well. I doubt that what you just said about Stray Story is actually true. Are we just like two fucking letterbox poisons in our circles? I just think people enjoy saying, like, did you know that David Lynch made a movie for Disney? Right.

In the fabled year of cinema 1999. He did. One of the best films in 1999. And even though it was a nominated film. Yeah, it was a movie. By no means a well remembered film. The recollection of which was just obliterated by him making Mulholland Drive two years later. Right.

Yes. Right. It is his least seen film on Letterboxd, I will say. Which is, I use Letterboxd only as a, I find it to be a good gauge of young people today, right? The youth today. What is the ranking of scene? It's like if you sort by popularity, right? Like his filmography, Mulholland Drive is number one, Blue Velvet's number two, Eraserhead is number three,

Elephant Man, Just people who have logged it. Elephant Man is number four. The reason for that I think is, this is still a well-liked movie. Oh yeah. It's such an iconic story beyond the movie. It's a forgotten film.

Right. Do people, yes, instantly recall that it's one of Lynch's like sort of most successful in terms of, like, critics, awards, money. It is the most transformative movie in his career, if you want to talk about it. This movie is ahead for views. Maybe not so much anymore. Of the young people.

Of Lost Highway, Wild at Heart, and Fire Walk With Me. Correct. That is wild. Yeah. It is a little surprising. Wild at Heart. It is Wild at Heart. It is on Disney Plus now, but I feel like- I was about to say, it's also an easier movie to see. It wasn It is a little surprising. Wild at Heart. It is Wild at Heart.

It is on Disney Plus now, but I feel like- I was about to say, it's also an easier movie to see. It wasn't for a while. Wild at Heart is impossible to see. Was never on Blue. Has still never been on Blue. You're right. Wild at Heart is like weirdly unwatchable.

Wild at Heart is not streaming at all. I feel like Blue Velvet is also not rentable now. No, I don't know. I watched it on MGM Plus. On iTunes, but I noticed recently it was less available than it had been. Wild at Heart, there's clearly something up with that one. You're setting up one of the most important things about Lynch. Which we will...

Well, we can just get into it now while we're on the subject, but I'm curious what the rest of the... Of the list? I'm just curious what order these movies rank in the sort of cultural I've seen. Wait, you want me to keep going? I mean, there's only like five more. Mold and Dry, Blue Velvet, Racer, Hydro, Elephant Man, Lost Highway is fifth, Fire Walk with Me is sixth, Dune is seventh, Wild at Heart is eighth, Inland Empire is ninth, Straight Story is tenth. Wild.

Okay, Straight Story is... And Dune probably... And like the Twin Peaks pilot is on Letterboxn, you know, that's in between like Dune and Mother Heart. You have to imagine Dune also just like bumped up a spot or two in the last two or three years Probably yeah with the youngins watch. Yeah. No I look a lot of this stuff though It's like you know I mean lost highway that probably bumped up cuz Balthazar Getty had a moat. No, I'm joking Well that yeah widely restored really

Criterion re-release will help us with something like course. I feel like it played for six months in theaters last year. His movies do, that chunk of them are kind of constantly in rep screening rotation. That's why I'm surprised this is higher than the ones that I feel probably screen monthly in New York. Because I don't feel like this movie screens much. It screens often enough that I've probably seen it in the theater three or four times. The only reason we should be talking about this, which we are, is like, I do think it's, yes, obviously the Elephant Man's legacy is secure, as you say, right?

Like there's no forgetting this movie. Seen as an unqualified triumph when it came out. But I do think it is interesting, right? I mean, we talk about this in the Blue Velvet episode, which is coming up, of like, what is the, is Blue Velvet still the definitive Lynch movie or did Mulholland Drive kind of replace it? You've brought up one of, I feel like I put this challenge to you guys. Which is a stupid question and doesn't need an answer.

I guess they, by the way, is Alex Ross Perry. I'm back. He's back. Maybe number 10? Is it 10? I don't know. In the neighborhood. Taking Woodstock, the key. I can look it up. I wouldn't remember all of them, but. Lucky Numbers. Insomnia. Insomnia. Okay, well you guys, yeah, okay. Insomnia, Hollow Man. Hollow Man.

Taking Woodstock, The Keep, Lucky Numbers, that's five. Halloween, Clockwork Orange Fight Club, so this is nine. Wow. Not including, you've showed up on some. Patreon. Patreon episodes. Yeah, you know. Yeah, but for Maine. All right, so we'll get there.

What was I gonna say? Oh, I asked you guys this years ago, and it. Yeah, but for Maine. All right, so we'll get there. What was I gonna say? Oh, I asked you guys this years ago, and it's more urgent now than ever for two reasons. Because I said, the thought exercise, I've always had this. David, is he the only? And he's not, but I have two others. The only filmmaker that you can credibly say, you could make an argument that is not laughable, that his later period

is maybe his best period beyond his most important period. Because any filmmaker you can think of. We talk about this a lot. The later years are usually at the crime. You could make the argument that the Mulholland Drive, Twin Peaks, The Returned Period, is the most essential period of his work. I think you could very easily...

No, I'm not saying that's... Discounting people who die tragically young or sub-arguing. I'm not saying that that is a correct argument, but I'm saying that in many cases, to make an argument like that would be ludicrous. No, no. You would be, you know, making a contrarian point for the sake of trying to say, well, yeah,

Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, ET, that run is good, but I really think the post-911 Spielberg run is the, it's like, okay, the case can be made that he made six masterpieces in it. That's not his best period. But also at this point, that's his mid-career. Yes. It would be like arguing that the post, you know.

It doesn't matter what it is, my whole argument is like, there's so few filmmakers where someone could say, no, like, Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, that is clearly his peak. A lot of times it's the early part of someone's career. If someone said, I have to say Mulholland Drive, Trinch Weeks to Return, that's his peak. No one would go, that is an insane argument. Not only that, but it's like those two things you're talking about,

and including Inland Empire, which is perhaps a little less love, but I think fits into this. It's like the guy is still evolving. Like those three projects are seen by people as like the guy is unlocking new things. The other director I always put in that category, who was also up for Return of the Jedi is Cronenberg. Yes. The only other person I ever felt you could convincingly say like, I don't love scanners and Videodrome. The back half of his career, like spider onwards. Someone could easily say those early movies are simply not the hype for me.

That later sort of acclaimed Eastern promises, like that is clearly, and you wouldn't say, you know what, you're right. You'd go, the case can be made. And I think in most directors' cases, the case cannot be made. There's also a little bit more- And I recently added George Miller to this very rarefied list.

Yeah, yeah. Not that I agree, but the case can now be made. So this is the Tarantino thing, obviously, of him being like, I'm gonna retire because right, nobody's good at the back half of their career anyway. It always comes into a decline. And then people like Scorsese or Spielberger out there being like, look, we're still making amazing movies.

By and large, I think you're right. Bergman, I remember we had a long conversation about this once. Bergman is the one. The like 30 to 50 films people get, it gets a little harder to say. It's true. But like Bergman is the one where his last four movies

or five movies, it's like Cries and Whispers, Scenes from a Marriage, Face to Face, Autumn Sonata, Fanny and Alexander, where you're like, he may have actually crested late, but then with Bergman or someone like that, the long film runs, you can also just kind of be like, yeah, but no, I prefer this bit. Sure.

Right, because he's got so many peaks. Yeah, you couldn't say, you could, but it would be very hard to say, credibly, I don't think he made persona during his best period Whereas like you could say like no, I don't know when she could be like no He actually had room to grow or whatever people that were just always the same always good and made a movie a year That's a little trickier to say like yeah, but talking about this stuff. He is a good thing You have the show. That's what I'm saying. Like isn't it fun? It just feels very, it's incredibly rare for someone to be,

and one of the things I was thinking about is like, this filmmaker who you're talking about, in a way that very few people do, Spielberg another one, which is why their eventual team up is so important, he has a defining movie of the 70s. He has a defining movie of the 80s. I would argue that Twin Peaks is a defining cultural work of the 90s. It's not a single movie.

And he has a defining work of the 2000s. And almost I would say a defining work of the 2010s. Yeah, if you mull Holland for 2000s and return for 2010s, I think you're right. And it's strange. It's not like everything is defining, but he is one of the rarest people where it's like, you know, he has five decades where one of his films Could just be on the cover of a book called Moving images of the decade. Yeah moving images of the 80s blue velvet's on the cover. No further questions Yeah moving images of the 2000s Mulholland Drive perfect choice for the cover

Right and a race for it on the cover the 70s. No one's like we're choice fuck chose that Be a weird choice, but not an insane one some props Here's an interesting exercise Alex your sight and sound top 10 list for this was for 2022 That's right. Yep, clock or corns. Love it. You covered you did the episode Texas chains, I'm sorry the Texas chainsaw massacre add the that's messier. Uh-huh Yeah, I put the the recent remake on my site and sound list. Michael Mann style. You loved it. That carves people up in a bus.

That's the only thing I remember from that one. Psycho. Great moving. Parenthetical 1960. I would agree with that. The Elephant Man being covered right now, clearly, on the episode where we talked about Homer at the Bat. Great film.

Next movie you're about to say is the next mini-series we're doing. We're doing our John Eustache. Could be a short one. Mother and the Whore. Yeah. Long movie, short mini. Dennis Hopper's the last movie. Mother and the Whore would be a movie where I think my episode wouldn't be as long as the movie.

Which could be. Right, it would be very tough to... Yeah, last movie. Yeah. You guys... feasibly should consider... We could do Hopper. We could do Hopper.

Yeah. We could throw him on the Hopper. We could do Hopper. We could throw him on the Hopper. That's a real Ben series. It's like three hours and 45 minutes long, the Mother and the Horse. So, you know. Yeah, that's the truth. Very long.

That's very long. There's no clock above their heads while they're making that one. Rosemary's Baby, Rushmore, Blowout, The Brown Bunny. All great movies. Which of these movies is most likely to be covered next on the show? Next.

So, I guess that, I think Tobe Hooper, as much as, that's a very interesting filmography, most likely to be covered next on the show. Next. I think Toby Hooper as much as that's a very interesting filmography, that's probably not coming up soon. More likely you do Texas Chainsaw on Patreon. A franchise commentary on that. Hopper is one of those things where it's like, that's an interesting idea. Yeah. I don't think we're rushing to that either. No, but it'd be interesting to do. I love that move. Polanski on the books. I'm not going to spoil anything. Let's do it. But you guys have, you've said that one of your dozens of March Madness ideas

is in all maniacs bracket and all weirdos. Yes. And Hopper would be a great contender for the like, these are just 32 insane filmmakers. As would Vincent Gallo. Yeah. Yeah. Although he might be tough to put on any bracket. I have a notes app that's like five different ideas for possible March Madnesses where I've done the experiment of are there 32 you could fit in brackets. I think at some point you just said we might do all sickos. Yeah.

Sicko bracket. There was also one time as a thought experiment we were like, could we put 32 canceled people onto a bracket? I've had that thought as well. Oops, only canceled. We'll never do it. But it was like, could you fill up 32 and we filled up? It was really fast. That'd be great. Yeah

I think Wes Anderson or Brian DePalma are probably the most likely people yes for us to do sometime in the next few years Yes, I feel like you've gotten a little warmer on the West idea Which you may be were a little more against a couple years ago post after I like to make everyone think that I hate him and Would hate the miniseries much like I hate hot farts right? I got so fuck I blew it just to rattle I got pretend. I like the movie It's better than my freaking boring ass sight and sound less okay, David's was unimpeachable Lots of thank you for reading a matter of life Snores coming from me Yep, there you go.

Ben's happy. Lots-a-lont, matter ofevitable, Boat Revive. Should be interesting. Claire Denis. Yeah, I'm sure you should have a lot of good stuff to say about the series. Oh, and what's this at the bottom of my list? Mulholland Drive. Yeah, pretty much.

Top ten for you, Mulholland Drive. You should do an episode about it. We're planning on it. Oh yeah, we're going to skip that one. Planning on it. Oh yeah, we're gonna skip that one. We'll just kind of be like, yeah, that one's good, five stars, see you later. The Elephant Man. The Elephant Man.

The Elephant Man. He has a defining work in five decades. Yeah. He does. He's a weird guy. And I wouldn't put it past him to somehow have one in this decade. Like, I mean, I don't know, but if he made one more thing, you never know. How funny was it when two weeks ago he was like,

something's coming. Yes. And everyone's like, oh, what's it gonna be? Our Reddit was like fucking new Twin Peaks season, feature length film. Could it be a irrelevant music release that nobody cares about? Almost definitely.

Hmm, let me just assume that he's putting out another album. Or a new blend of coffee. I had like, I had a little money on new blend of coffee. Well, he said for your eyes and ears He didn't say for your taste buds and your tummy or whatever Childish language he would favor David Lynch isn't gonna tell you how to ingest coffee You could put it in your eyes and ears if you wanted to I could see David Lynch saying tummy Absolutely, do you know the I forget if this was the name of his album or his single?

But do you know that he recently put out an album or a song called Crazy Clown Time? Yeah. Yes, I do. Crazy Clown Time. Can you picture him saying that in his voice? Absolutely. Crazy Clown Time! When that was announced, I was just like... I mean, I love the guy.

I assume he's growing on you or you love him. Well, when you say recently, because he's about to put out a new album. That's what he just teased. Yeah. The Crazy Clown time was like, an album a few weeks ago. It was from a little while back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I have heard the song and it's insane. His music's kind of crazy. Like obviously, But isn't like crazy clown crazy? Yeah, it's kind of clown crazy. Like kind of circus music? I don't know, it's just you expect him,

I've really expected his music to sound a certain way, and then I've been going through a lot of the albums. You thought it was going to be more sort of like confessional pop. I'm just saying, I assumed based on like his movies always having like really fantastic music, and then you listen, it's just kind of like insane... I don't even know. Like his singing voice is really weird. I would describe it as like crazy clown time. It's like kind of the vibe of his music.

I forget if it was, if that was the song, then the album was a good day today. Or if the album was crazy clown time, then the song was a good day today. And I never listened to any of this, obviously. But I just can picture him in his voice. Do you folks agree? Repeating these words in a don't forget to wear sunscreen, Boz Lerman kind of spoken word, non-song song. Do you folks agree with me that this movie is like the single most transformative step of his career

in that were it not for this, you could imagine him just being like, I make movies like Eraserhead. Well, it's very important. important work wildly outside of the system. I Got very nervous watching it because I love it. I love it more than almost any other movie and watching it. I had this Creeping fear that this is not a very interesting movie. I think it's incredibly well It's incredibly interesting in the body of his career, but it is not a movie You mean like to discuss like it's, to dissect, to theorize, like come in, talk, clock, work, orange.

10 people could write 10 dissertations on different meanings of that movie. This movie is, it is what it is. And it is perfect, in my opinion. But that's why it's interesting to discuss. I agree, because it's very strange that this was his second film. Because it's basically someone who maybe was going to construct a career almost exclusively

as an avant-garde artist, not being forced to like tell a straightforward story. But this is his most narratively conventional film. It is a most emotionally direct film. I mean, the competition for this is straight story, but straight story, as he's always said is like very weird narratively, it's kind of bottled emotionally. When that came out, people worked a lot harder to bend over backwards to place it somewhere in his oeuvre. Right.

Whereas this had no oeuvre and this was what now is a classic, a classic thing. Some guy made an underground sensation and then they hired him to make some big movie and guess what? It turned out, turned out good. That was a classic thing. Some guy made an underground sensation and then they hired him to make some big movie. Guess what? It turned out good. But it doesn't feel like he just phoned in what they wanted. He made a David Lynch film. It feels like his film.

Expression of his sensibility as you could possibly imagine. And I watched this again last night and I was just like, every second while watching this movie, you imagine the million other versions of this movie that are all worse. And many of those versions would even still be good. Or they would be serviceable Oscar films that were well acted and you'd be kind of like, yeah, that was that was kind of like magical, delicate, unsentimental, but deeply felt, perfectly constructed, but it's not overly precious, you know?

It'd be so easy for this film to feel like this kind of like pastiche, jewelry box, kind of ornate, or maudlin, even just like the line I offensively re-appropriated at the beginning of this episode. The most, you're right, like quote unquote, maudlin moment in the movie. And a moment that is parodied in a lot of other big things. But it's also, that's like,

that clip could be in an Oscar's montage. Yes. And nobody would be like, wow, they haven't lunch made it in a montage. But also, how does that play out in the actual movie? It is, he is largely obstructed. The camera is placed behind the crowd, he is pinned against the wall. We do eventually. He's yelling that's behind the crowd. He's pinned against the wall

He's yelling it right into the camera 100 You like that's it. I know that close up after the line is over I know I had the exact same thought watching it like I've like right it is interesting how it's like this You know behind everyone's backs. He's by the urinals, right? You can barely see him you cut to a close-up you go in tight on John Hurt's eyes as he delivers that primal scream. No one begrudges him. No one is like, that's cheap and manipulative. But the amount of self-control to be like, no, this doesn't need any embellishment. This is emotionally affecting enough as it is. In fact, it is so painful, it is probably more affecting to pull away from it.

That's why it's a good decision. Yeah, it's a magical movie, and it's magical the way it came together. It's very strange that this is his second movie. I mean, you watch this and you imagine, I saw a racer head at midnight. But you're just like, I don't know he had it in him. No.

But now, no. That is what's beautiful about it. No one our age has ever watched this and been like, I didn't know he had it in him because we've seen his other movies. But I used to watch this and think about this second Well after all you know you're like this sort of limbs the multiple people who had to go out on limbs and be like I think he can make this and Then he just did like it's not there's no magic and he himself

I think wouldn't have thought he could make this were people not to suggest it to him Look, we'll talk about all that. What's your relationship with this film? When did you first see it? I saw it when I was in high school. I think I watched it like many movies I talked about on the show in my obsessive teenager. I need to watch three movies every night, not do homework period. Great period for you.

You know, probably watched at like two o'clock in the morning when I should have been sleeping, hoping my dad wasn't going to knock on my door and tell me to go to sleep, which makes this movie feel even more eerie. Watching this movie on like standard deaf on VHS or DVD or TV or whatever it was the first times I watched this in shittier transfers, there was a feeling of this actually feels like a movie from the 40s. You know, it's not, but something about the degradation of it.

I mean, I was watching it on my imported 4K now and I'd never seen it look so pristine, which I don't say in a negative way. But I remember watching it and feeling like this feels like some bizarre time paradox object. What about you, Alex? This is obviously a big pivotal movie for you. Yeah, I don't remember when I first saw it other than like a lot of things, as also discussed, Kubrick.

I think Blue Velvet was on the 98 AFI Top 100. I probably saw that first. And then this was probably one of the next ones up. And this goes into one of my big, exciting, fun thoughts about Lynch. I would have just seen this because this was, let's say it's 1999 or let's say it's 2004. Sure. You know, this is one of his only movies that you could just go rent. That's true.

Right? At that time, it's a high likelihood you're not finding a racer head at Blockbuster. This was a big studio film that was available through all means that Paramount distributed movies and it was on circulation TV, whereas... It was an Oscar film. It was a mainstream film that your parents would have seen and unlike Blue Velvet, wouldn't think it is weird for a kid to watch. So much of the Lynch Cannon otherwise was treated like the Disney library where it's like it's available now for three weeks. Well this is one of the most, I mean so you

know this was a lot easier to see. Yeah. Certainly and obviously Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart were studio films as well but like moving in then this is something I've always found important about him. Moving into the DVD era right so when you know we all are obviously older than you guys a little bit but but like, would have been getting, trying to get your hands on movies. Yes. So let's say the dawn of the DVD era. Power of DVD is flying out of the screen at you. It's exploding out of the White House. Possibilities are infinite.

With an alien spaceship. Yeah. You can't see Eraserhead. Right? Eraserhead is not on DVD. No, it takes a while. You can see this. You can see Wild at Heart and Blue Velvet. Mm-hmm. You can't see the pilot of Twin Peaks.

No. You can't see any of it. There's the Twin Peaks VHS box set, but for years it wasn't available and then the DVDs were out and then they were out of print and season two was not available. Yes. So Twin Peaks was like this weird thing where you could watch basically parts two through eight and nothing else legally. You... Lost Highway was available in a terrible full screen broke-ass transfer.

So it was very unappealing. Very hard to access. And that was on tape too. Mulholland Drive was available in this weird DVD with no chapters. And then recently for years, Inland Empire was out of circulation. Right. Yeah. And you look at like what makes a cult filmmaker a cult filmmaker. For 15 years, there was a hunt for his work.

Yeah, having it be a challenge is what makes it cool. Which made this movie less cool. Yes. Because it was right there. But it also meant more people got to see it. But what makes a cult filmmaker significant is like a racerhead even until the 2000s when you know You guys know like the big goofy DVD box. We talked about the big box eraser head 2000 much. Yeah, Blues Brothers 2000 I'm sure same thing you said but this is one of the funniest things ever that J. Evan Bonifant of course plays

Buster eraser head self releases an unwieldy Totally disgracefully designed box of one of the most important movies of all time. And just then a little paper sleeve inside this oversized box. And not even a paper sleeve, like the DVD slides out of like this thick, like board game ass cardboard. Right. And he just slaps the numbers 2000 on it. Right, and then you had the lime green box where it it was like here's a couple of his movies and some Of the shorts and some special shorts were also in the box So the two boxes were eraser head and six short films right and then there was the dumb land box

But then what is included the lime green box is a weird. That's like after my DVD time I don't care about the lime green box You don't care about the lime green box But he you know he puts out eraser head and it looked great You don't care? You're gonna go on the record and say you don't care about the lime green box? I am, yeah. But he puts out Eraserhead and it looked great. It was an incredible looking DVD, but it was just so annoying to have and it didn't fit anywhere. And, you know, we're talking like 20 years where this is one of the most important movies

and it was kind of hard to see unless an old beat up tape of it was at a store or you lived in a place where you'd see it at a revival. Yes. And it's very strange that his reputation, or it's not strange at all, it's the most obvious thing in the world, but it's strange that he's basically a mainstream artist, right? Like these are all, with the exception of Eraserhead,

these are all studio or studio adjacent movies. The lime green box was Eraserhead, Disc 2 is the soundtrack, Disc 3 is short films, Disc 4 is Elephant Man, Disc 5 is the soundtrack disc three is short films disc four is elephant man Disc five is the elephant man extras, which is mostly a documentary about the real John Merrick Dis six is blue velvet seven is wild at heart eight is industrial symphony volume one Nine is dumb land ten is mystery DVD, which is mostly just him talking straight to Cameron. Yeah, this is some nonsense.

Right, and it was like a bunch of a weird combination of stuff in one box that was in print for like one month on his website. Yeah, yeah, like, so he had this weird relationship with Access that clearly defines like the path of a cult filmmaker. Yes. Hodorowski, El Topo, and Holy Mountain were hard to see. You have to go to a midnight showing or whatever. Hard to see forever.

Right. But the other thing about him, as we're talking about, is like, honestly, I know it's going to sound like a joke, much like Kevin Smith. No. He is a craven capitalist who loves marketing his own goods to his own fans directly. And controlling his own sort of mythology. I honestly think they were some of, they were maybe the two first significant filmmakers to just have their own website with their own web store. Yes.

Yes, and like sell the products. I mean you remember that era of the IFC where any movie you would go to see would have 20 minutes of pre-roll, not including trailers, including like short attention span theater and whatever, but I remember and the heavy metal auteur. Still show it. Right, but I remember a period where I would see three different David Lynch pre-roll things Where they would like advertises DVDs on sale at the concession stands they'd have an ad for his coffee line But the clip of him talking about it during David Lynch premium select coffee You don't have to remind me right? I was like this guy is like a fucking mogul

No to me. It's not mogul or craving capitalism. It's like more old-fashioned like Pre-cinema huckster ism not in a bad way, but like this kind of like traveling salesman vibe But there's also control your own destiny like if you're kind of except like a lot of his stuff He didn't control and then he would do stuff like put out the Mulholland Drive DVD that I owned and watched endlessly, that is like an insulting product. Yes. Like, and it's insane that that was the way I consume my favorite movie, that's like in shitty shape.

He's like, I don't like DVD chapters, so it has no DVD chapters, right? It's just like a bare bones. And like he blurred out some of the nudity because he like felt bad about that, which is like now been undone. You know, shit like that where you're just like what is this? This is the only way to watch this movie and I don't know who's calling you Owen Klein is calling Owen Klein is calling you. Great Owen Klein. We loved his film funny pages Friend of the show. Is he?

I guess he does. I guess he does. I'm a friend of Griffin. I know him at the guy. Overdue. We gotta have him on the podcast. Okay, he's banned. I never met the guy over do we got him on the podcast? We went to see spawn together seer of spawn It's all because of the way I made these plans with Owen Uh-huh. What do you mean? Well, cuz what had happened with the spawn screening? Mm-hmm is that I had said first I heard about I said to Owen. Let's go see spawn Yeah, and then at some point I was... Is it fair to say that you and Owen have kind of Spawn violator vibes? Yeah, it is. Sure, why not?

Who's Spawn? I guess I'm Spawn. Yeah. He's more, yeah, he's more clone, I guess. And then at some point, amidst the run of planning for this, I just said, I wonder if Ben would be into Spawn. And then Owen said, You wonder.

How dare you. I wonder if Ben would be into going to this screening. Yeah, that's still an insulting question. And then Owen later was like, we should invite Griffin. Griffin and I used to be all in on Spawn. By the way, Ben, what is that on Alex's desk? Do you notice there's something wrapped? This is like a...

I'm gonna crack the dust. I'm very curious what's in the dossier. Should we see what's in the dossier or what's in Ben's in this place? This has kind of become a tradition. I just wanna say that I get you a Christmas present and usually you come on the show sometimes. I see it in a...

Shades of months later. I've opened up a corner, I see a flaming green inn. Could be anything. Anything. Oh, man. It could be anyone. Could be Bridges of Madison County. Oh my God. What do you have there? This is a VHS of Todd McFarlane's spawn to

HBO home video the second volume of with a lenticular cover. Let me see that cover. Yeah So we of course love the animated series It was obviously a vulgar animated series rated R with nudity. Nothing had ever been done like that before. I'm getting huge spawn vibes from that cover. It was also one of the classic 90s, like, well, you know what the real best version of X comic book is, is the underseen animated series. Yeah, they came out like two weeks after the movie or something. They were in development at the same time. Thank you, Ben.

You're welcome, Alex. So anyway, the reason that David wasn't invited to that screening is because I- You don't like me. No, I just invited Owen and then later I invited Ben and then Owen said let's invite Griffin and then it was all out of control. Marie?

Yes, Griffin. I'd love to do another ad read if you don't mind, if you have the time. Sure. Hold on one second. Bring, bring, bring, bring. Sorry, I know this is unprofessional. Let me just take this call. Unknown caller. Hmm who could it be? Hold on. Hello? Oh my god. Marie. What? It's warmer sunnier days. Warmer sunnier

days are calling? The notion, the abstract concept of warmer sunnier days. They're calling me. I thought it was a robocall But is in fact the friendly manifestation of warmer sunnier days and they are Telling me to please fuel up for them with factors. No prep. No mess meals Wow I've got some wellness goals in time for summer. Wait a second They want they want to introduce me. What? They want me to meet my wellness goals. Oh great, okay.

Just in time. Can I come too? Absolutely, just in time for summer. Look at us here, the peak of summer. And this is all thanks to the menu of chef-crafted meals with options like Calorie Smart, Protein Plus, and keto. Listen, factors fresh, never frozen meals,

are dietitian approved and ready to eat in just two minutes. Just hold on one second. If you just stay on the line, I'm just trying to finish this ad read. So no matter how busy you are, you'll always have time to enjoy nutritious, great tasting meals. You make today the day you kickstart a new healthy routine. What are you waiting for, Marie? They got, they they got 35 different meals more than 60 add-ons to choose from every week. You'll always have new flavors to explore. Yeah no I told her about the new flavors. And listen you can crush your wellness goals this month with dietitian approved meals and ingredients that you can trust. I understand what you're doing and it's helpful in certain ways but

it's also kind of a conflict because I have to do the ad read we'd already started recording so now I'm like funneling back and forth between the phone call and the doing the ad read with Marie. Yeah, no, I'll tell her. You can make your day nutritious. Okay. From breakfast to dessert, stay, yeah, no, I'm saying that. Stay fueled with easy, nutritious options.

Why won't they just call me to speak to me directly? Or maybe text me, I don't know. So it's easier to just read it. Okay, this restaurant quality meals Okay, feature premium ingredients like filet mignon shrimp and blackened salmon You keep kitchen time to a minimum factor meals are ready in two minutes No shopping prepping cooking or cleaning up ironically your your phone calls kind of taking Some time out of my day

No, I know the intention was good but it's just like most phone calls these days if you receive one It's a little bit of a stressor because you just wonder like couldn't this have been an email You can enjoy effortless support for your lifestyle choose from six menu preferences to help you manage calories Maximize protein intake avoid meat simply eat well balanced and that the call to action. Oh, sorry Griffin Griffin. I'm getting you're getting. Okay. Hello. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. They want me to, they want me to tell you that you can head to factor meals.

Dot com slash check 50. Okay. And use code check 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. Now Marie, that sounded like a call to action. Was that a call from action? No, it was a call from warmer, sunnier days. They're calling you as a... Are we on a conference calling that?

Listen, let me just... Hold on one second. Yeah, okay. That's code CHECK50 at factor meals dot com slash CHECK 50 to get 50% off your first box Plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. It's a great offer I wish they didn't feel the need to hold our hands through the whole process In 1977 David Lynch released a racer a five-year project finally

Released out into the world film you like you like? I love Eraserhead. It's pretty great. Yeah. It's like one of the artistic miracles of the 70s. I would agree. I'm realizing this must have been the second Lynch film I had seen, Elephant Man, that I saw straight story in theaters. My parents took me to see it in the Angelica and had the...

It's so weird that he made this conversation. I was like, what do you mean? And then I watched his other most conventional movie That's probably what the racer had after that but a lot of my context for this movie was Not really watching it through any understanding of who David Lynch was in a serious way But anyway, 1977 he makes film is obviously on the midnight movie circuit It you know has this slow but intense cult following this building Marty Michelson a William Morris agent, is then interested, obviously, in doing more

lynch stuff and tries to get Ronnie Rocket made, which is... Alex is just looking at the Spawn cover and smiling. Well, I want to hear this context. I am listening. Yeah. There's a warning on the cover though. What does it say? Too cool.

Warning. Following program is recommended for mature audiences only. It contains adult situations, adult language, graphic violence, and nudity. So don't show your daughter. I would say that Spawn selling his soul to the devil to become an immortal warrior is an adult situation. I would say it's a... That is not a situation that children find themselves in often.

But then a violator like pooping through his pants or whatever is a little... It's for grownups. Yeah. Okay, fine. In a childish situation. Have you ever read Ronnie Rocket, the sort of fabled unproduced Lynch project? No, I was doing a little bit of brush up about it. I've never like read those, you know.

No, I understand. I feel like you guys mentioned this sometimes, you're like, oh, the script for It's Out There, I've read it, I'm like, who the fuck wants to do that? I feel like I used to do it back in the day when I had less going on and I was a teenager. Vincent Ward and Lee in three scripts out there, you could read them read I'm like I don't want to read a fucking script. Wooden Planet!

That's the kind of thing I would have bought at a comic convention in like 97, 8 or 9 and then poured over but you know. I'm not going to sit down and read Ronnie Rockett. At one point Lynch supposedly says he pitched Ronnie Rockett to like a major studio and they were like what's it about and he was like it's about electricity and a three-foot guy with red hair and they were like okay and he never about? And he was like, it's about electricity and a three foot guy with red hair. And they were like, okay. And he never got a call back. Get out of my office. And To be fair, he could, you know, someone could say what's the elephant man about?

And he'd be like, it's about smokestacks and hospital ethics. And they'd be like, okay, fine. Please leave. Christine McKenna says the details of the story are it's like one is about a detective who's going into the inner zone in pursuit of a villain who's hijacked electricity and reversed it so electricity makes darkness instead of light. The second storyline is about a 16 year old boy who's kind of a Frankenstein monster. This is running rocket?

Yes. And the whole movie is kind of about the birth of rock and roll and the boy becomes kind of like a rock star. Electricity is popping everywhere. And then apparently there's some peculiar sexual stuff and a dysfunctional family and some weird violence. It sounds like a David Lynch movie. I would love to see him make it just because I want to see everyone

get to make their megalopolis. But you also hear everything about it, and you're like, it feels like the pieces of this ended up across this whole thing. Right, he put it aside long ago. I remember like 15 years ago when Jonathan Coet was supposed to make it after Tarnation. Right. he put it aside long ago. Remember like 15 years ago when Jonathan Coet was supposed to make it after Tarnation?

Right. I do remember that, yes. Because Tarnation, he had some bad health problems recently. Really bad health problems. There was like huge GoFundMe. I remember there was like a GoFundMe. I donated to the GoFundMe. But he was, because there was like a blue velvet riff

in Tarnation and then they was like, oh he might make Ronnie Rock, it was Ronnie Rock, after watching this movie I was like, Lynch, he might make Ronnie Rockett. It was Ronnie Rockett, after watching this movie, I was like, Lynch must have a great Wikipedia page like a John Carpenter of unmade projects, 40 movies. No, he doesn't seem to have. This is kind of the only unmade thing that's like, yeah, that's his unmade movie that was kind of like softly announced or something.

There was some interview recently where he mentioned that he had written an animated film years ago and had polished it off and was trying to send it around. And then I talked to a major... I will not... I will keep this anonymous. I talked to people at a major... One of the major American animation studios. Who were like, we have the script, we're considering it.

I don't even know if he'd direct it. And they were like, it is very much a like straightforward, well-written animated film. It is not a deeply bizarre thing. It's kind of, yeah. It's like about what if there was this spy and he like turned into a pigeon, you know, midway through his spy adventures. Well, that's the most fucked up premise I've ever heard. That's some Lynchian nightmare shit.

David Lynch. I watched Tarnation with my entire family because like my aunt rented it like one Thanksgiving or something. And I remember 10 minutes into the movie, age 17 was like oh this film's not gonna go over with anyone but me and this family like this is an incredibly difficult to watch abstract documentary about a person's arm. I saw that movie like four times in theaters because that's way too many times to see that movie Griffin. I also was just like is this like the first time I've seen someone actually

possibly create a new language in Cinema which felt very exciting and it's like ended up being a bit of a dead end sort of a footnote or whatever Which is fascinating. It's an interesting film if anyone ever you know comes around to it. Oh No, we're gonna move on so Stewart cornfield good movie who is a Producer that's interested in Lynch and says he's a fucking genius. He'd worked at, he'd come up at the AFI around the same time as Lynch in the producer program. Ties a lot of things together.

He also came up the same time as Martin Brest, our buddy Marty Brest. And another person who was attending AFI at the same time is Anne Bancroft. Obviously incredibly established Academy Award winning actress at this point, but wants to direct, makes the film that later she adapts into the feature Fatso starring Dom DeLuis. But Kornfeld, friends with Marty Brest meets Anne Bancroft, which connects him to, of course, Mel Brooks. Mel Brooks, who is Anne Bancroft's husband. And all of this is happening a little after David Lynch's time there, but I think Lynch

is looming as a recent AFI alumni. So are you covering the short films? Yeah. Yep. So they're good. Right Ben? Yes. Good Ben vibes.

I've never seen any of them. You haven't done them yet? Yeah. No, we haven't done them. So, and the albums? Cornfield. Crazy Clown Time on Patreon. And the albums? Crazy Clown Time on Patreon. And the coffee.

Cornfield talks to... I'm now doing like what my wife does in high school, I think. I'm just going to go quiet until everyone is silent. Cornfield talks to Lynch and says, you're a genius, but you really just need to make a movie. Which I think is obviously usually good advice, right? You don't want to be like, the guy hasn't made movies. This is funny because a razor head is fresh.

It's not like he hasn't done it for 10 years. It was a five-year birthing process. You can see Kornfeld being like you can't just go back into another thing it's gonna take five years to come out. That's the thing I think Lynch is also like what do you think of this Ronnie Rocket? And he's like I think this is very interesting I don't think you're gonna be able to make this right away. Like you need to just make a movie. Right. And so they set aside that,

and then now to switch over to Elephant Man, once there was an Elephant Man. So that's the origin of this story. The Elephant Man. Yes. John Merrick. Yes, that's Joseph Merrick. But you can- Why did they change his name?

In the movie they call him John Merrick. Yeah, he's John in the movie. They refer to him as John in the movie, and I'm not sure why. So, in the special feature, there's a, so- But the real guy? Joseph. Joey Jojo they call him. There's a, so... But the real guy? Joseph. Joey Jojo they call him.

There's a little special feature on the criterion. You called him Joey Jojo? Keep going. Apparently when Treves wrote his... Treves? Sorry. Frederick Treves, yes. When he wrote his monograph on Merrick,

he just wrote, they have a picture of it in the special feature. He wrote Joseph, crossed it out, and wrote John. Interesting. And that just, and according to the historian on the special feature, it says, no one knows why he did this. Okay.

Maybe it was a goof? No, because you see it crossed off, and he says, you know, it may have been done to afford him a bit of anonymity, a bit of modest, this is just the historian on the... Right. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. The fault guy with the British accent.

It's like a sort of an Elle Simpson, no, Lisa S situation. So he basically just says when Treves wrote his monograph on him, he just changed it. Treves, to be clear, the doctor who treated Mr. Merrick and his play by Anthony Hopkins in the film. Yeah. So it's one of those things. It says on Wikipedia, Treves changed it. It was Joseph, everyone knew that. And then when he wrote his book,

that the movie is largely sourced from, he just said, what if it was John? So Christopher D'Avore and Eric Bergrin, Eric Bergrin, right, write this screenplay, largely drawn from that, a little bit drawn from this book, The Elephant Man, a Study in Human Dignity as well. This is happening kind of simultaneously with the play being written, which has no relation to this movie.

Right. In the play, the way you play the elephant man is you're Bradley Cooper and you go, one of the funny, I mean, just one of the funniest pictures. Wasn't the play originated on Broadway by Mark Hamill? He was in it. I don't think he was the star replacement. I think he was one of the people who has gone on Broadway. It was a big, I'm not just Luke Skywalker

watching play The Elephant Man. There is no way to discuss what these actors do on stage. You've seen the pictures of Bradley Cooper and even I believe David Bowie. You've seen the pictures, right? David Bowie's another one who did it. Have you seen the pictures? I've at least seen Bradley Cooper.

Have you seen the Bowie? When people do the play, they don't't wear makeup they don't do a costume They slant one shoulder and they might hold a little cane Yes, and they make a face that says I have a deformed skull. Yes Um, I think Philip Anglim was the original John Merrick. Okay on stage What you have David Bowie did it, Bruce Davison did it, later Oscar nominated character actor himself. Senator Kelly.

And then Mark Hamill did it in his, yes he is Senator Kelly in the action movies. A squishy senator. Mark Hamill did it as his Broadway debut in 1981, so that's between Empire and Jedi. Yep. And it was, it's just funny to think about that, because right, it's this hit that's simultaneous

Parallel, they don't have anything to do with each other. There's about the same thing Which you always are kind of like although growing up you're just like I'm sure you know it's an adaptation of the play right? I don't think anyone says I am not an animal in the play right I don't know but I'll admit I've never seen it two works works created entirely separately, simultaneously, and then this movie fascinatingly has a postscript saying this had nothing to do with the play after the fact. The book, the study in human dignity, hadn't that, that was recent-ish for both. Yes. And I think both are drawing from it a little bit.

Have you seen the interview where Bradley Cooper is trying to talk to Jimmy Fallon about playing the Elephant Man and they cannot stop laughing for like 10 minutes It's very funny. I don't Sure, he can't stop laughing both of them are clear they get into this Google thing Yes, yeah, well Fallon obviously like where old stone face The Calvin Coolidge of late night The Calvin Coolidge of late night Broke him No, it's more like Fallon breaks Cooper like Cooper keeps trying to be like that's how

He had this physical deformity and then like he just clearly is like looking at Fallon space and can't stop laughing because he's trying To be serious and it's a silly situation found a Buckingham Palace. He'd be cracking those guys all those soldiers Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. You picture Fallon goofing with Merrick Have Merrick sit there on the couch? Could you imagine Merrick slow jamming the news? That was like I was trying to think of what you just did. Let me reference a Fallon bit and then I was just like I don't really what are his bits again? You know slow jamming the news. I do remember that. They play kids instruments. They make a beer pong or something.

Right. We all have musical impressions that are really random and unplanned. There's like, it's just one year where people are like, this man has reinvented late night. And then a year later it was like, I cannot stand the sight of him. Yes.

Was the universal opinion both times. Anyway, he's still going. Still going, we'll never stop. And he's, I heard, a really cool boss. Okay, so. Who's chill? So, Jonathan Sanger, who's one of the producers of this film with Mel Brooks, is working as, I think, an assistant director on High Anxiety.

And his babysitter is like, my boyfriend wrote a script, do you wanna read it? Gives him The Elephant Man. And he's like, your fucking boyfriend wrote this? This shit's unbelievable. He's impressed with the script. Apparently it was 200 pages, which seems almost surprising

because this film is two hours long. Every scene is 45 seconds long almost. Yeah, and like it's a lot of, which I love about it, quiet, silent. You could imagine even a good version of the script, the overwritten version that Lynch would come in and just simplify. You suspect this was his contribution,

which I was not able to find anything about what he actually did, other than probably adding all the stuff about the industrial age. Right, I mean, that does feel like his addition. But so both Sanger and Kornfeld, who are both sort of circling this, love the idea of Lynch for this movie,

but it's getting shopped all around town. The play is kind of messing with the possible rights of it because The people who wrote the are putting on the player like we own the title the elephant man Which seems sort of specious to me, but I believe there was legal And so they turned to Mel Brooks and Brooks Found the script to be fascinating and he said let's do this which I think surprised everybody because of course Which most which I think surprised everybody because of course race or head which most

People I think studio that okay Like the Brooks even wants to make a drama is interesting now Brooks makes funny films Well, he had already started Brooks films to produce fat. So his company. I have not seen funny, right? You know, it's a sadly funny. Yes, but it's more James L than Mel in comedic sensibility, perhaps. I've also been meaning to see it, but... I love Dom DeLauise. Oh, who doesn't? Exactly. Do you like Dom?

I don't know. You don't? I mean, you're out on Dom? If I said yes, what would I be saying that I like? For Bible? Fl floppy hats. I mean, I like American tail. I don't know if I would say as a kid, what I like about this is the horse laughing. Horse laughing. I can't do it. Is he just like he had the H O A R S E. I was like imagining he made a horse laugh. He was so funny than he made a horse laugh for he did He definitely I sign on yeah, so right Everyone's in what was the name of his usual production company? It was called arrowhead mountainhead something. Oh, I don't know he had his name for his own films

He started Brooks film to be like I want to be able to produce movies to help people that aren't my sensibility. Yeah, yeah, right. So he'd already created this label that was sort of just like, I have other aspirations. And he had talked about this like, I've heard him say this in interviews where he's like, I think there are a lot of other films I could have made as a director,

but I accepted as a certain point that my name was too synonymous with the sensibility and people wouldn't expect certain things for me. Crossbow productions. Thank you. I liked the idea of helping some, will some of these films into existence. So Mel Brooks is like who is David Lynch? He actually wants Alan Parker who had recently made Bugsy Malone. Makes a ton of sense.

It makes some sense. I- Alan Parker's just gonna be always, mean, obviously he made The Wall, right? I feel like that's what probably is like the coolest thing he had done. Would have been a logical other person on the list to be like, yeah, this is an old kind of... Oh no, you know what? The Wall's after this. Midnight Express is what he's really coming off of.

This is that era. Yes, that's 78. Obviously there's... A horror film. Yeah, that's true. Bugsy Malone, like I said, you know, like, I don't know. You know, he's made movies I liked. He makes stylish movies. I mean, he's not, I think Alan Parker's dead, right?

I think he died fairly recently. Yeah, 2020. But Man I Express was like a phenomenon. That's one of those movies where when you watch like sitcoms from that era... Yes, it made Turkish prison the thing you don't want to be in, in every sitcom. Everyone's citing it all the time. I always got to confuse with Midnight Run.

I did too. Very different movies. My brain couldn't separate that these movies were different. Very different movies. Oh, I later learned that. But they weren't. The hard way. Yeah, well it was like when I thought I was renting

Midnight Cowboy, and I actually rented Urban Cowboy. Very different movie. And I was like, I thought I was renting Midnight Cowboy and I actually rented Urban Cowboy. Very different movie. And I was like, this is one of the greatest films of all time. Like this movie is awful. Yeah, Urban Cowboy isn't great. And I realized I rented the wrong movie. Right.

Great things like that used to happen. I mean so much. What's the, wait, what's the Matt Dillon movie? Drugstore Cowboy. Thank you. Right. I was like, there's three cowboy movies and I too would mess them up. All right. So, Kornfeld is the one who's like, it's got to be fucking David Lynch.

Yeah. So Brooks is like, fine, I'll meet the guy. This was a religious experience for me. It was the greatest film I'd ever seen. I was committed to getting this guy. Right. They meet at Bob's Big Boys, a very lynchy place to meet. It was the only place he ate for years.

Brooks found him very polite, thought he looked like Charles Lindbergh because he was wearing an aviator's jacket. And they talked about sort of the outsider aspect of the story and that's how it was appealing and Lynch said, I think this is a heartwarming story and Brooks liked that. And so then he goes to see a racer head and I think Kornfeld is like pacing like crazy being like, well, this is going to make Mel fire Lynch. Like be like, no, fuck what? This guy, are you crazy? And instead the doors fly open.

I mean, the funny thing that Kornfeld says is like, people are coming out, right? Jonathan comes out, so that's, you know, one of the other producers and has what he says is an OJ Simpson juror expression. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Stoneface? Comes out and says, Lynch is clearly guilty. You just couldn't read it. This guy is guilty of making a great cult film.

The doors fly open and Mel runs out with his arms outstretched and embraces Kornfeld and says, Lynch and says, you're a mad man. I love you. You're in. The best film I've ever seen about what it's like to have kids. I've heard him talk in interviews about seeing this movie and everyone was like, what an insane object from Planet Nutball. And that Mel watched it for the first time and was

like, there's clearly a real filmmaker here. This isn't just random shit happening. The like invisible craft of this movie is so incredibly strong. This guy isn't just some like out-tra artists who stumbled on some provocative images. Paramount agrees to distribute the film after it moves around for a while. NBC puts up $4 million, I guess, in a deal that sort of had Brooks agreeing to do some TV stuff for them. Yeah, well, Kornfeld was like, I've tried pitching this with Lynch and it wasn't going anywhere.

And Mel was like, they said no to you. They're not going to say no to me. Mel Brooks was really good at using his celebrity as capital to get these movies made. And yeah, it's just like to go into the offices of NBC, pre-sell the TV rights for this movie, get him to put up a chunk of the budget and be like, I'll make like seven TV appearances for next year. That's so worth it to them. Other than The Fly, what else does Brooks film do that he doesn't want credit for?

Francis, which was like another kind of serious biographical thing that got Oscar attention with Jessica Lange. My favorite year is obviously more his- That's a fun movie. Type of thing. But yeah, that was an Oscar nominated movie. It does start to fall apart. I mean it's like-

84 Chair and Crossroad, which is like a dramedy. Elephant Man, then obviously he's doing his own movies with him there My favorite year is his kind of thing Francis to fear not to be the doctor and the devil's the flies solar babies And then it's basically back to save for the fly to hell You're forgetting the vagrant the Bill Paxton horror film. Why have you ever seen that that feels like a Kim's video? Vagrant is doctrine the devil's that's Freddie Francis who shot this movie. Yeah. But so yeah, you know, it's like 84 Chan Crossroad, which is like that's an Anne Bancroft movie.

Like, so like he would obviously if she wanted to make something serious, you know, but obviously, of course, famously, he takes his name off this movie basically as much as he can so that people do not think Mel Brooks presents the elephant man they think they're going in for a laugh riot about like a guy who never forgets and you know what else do elephants say? Crazy for peanuts. Right, right. He's a peanut hat. Right, they see a mouse and they go ah!

He cost himself an Oscar nomination, right? For the good of the film. Yes, yes, because he is an uncredited producer. It's just Jonathan Sanger. I just think it's incredibly cool. And I just love that like this and the fly are basically the same narrative of he and Kornfeld finding

these incredibly interesting filmmakers and being like, if you match that guy with that material, they can make a studio picture that works and like completely protected them and insulated them. And they made these incredible fucking movies. About sad monsters who are shunned. Yeah. And movies that no one else would have gotten made or gotten made those ways.

The sort of... I never thought this about this movie before, but like, so everything in the narrative you're describing, which is now the way most things work. Uh-huh. Like, oh, you made this weirdo movie, we're gonna throw you into the deep end. Typically now this is... But that's actually not how it was done back then, is what you're saying. No, it would have been much less common.

Kind of like, other than somebody having the improbable foresight to be like, I think the guy who made Meet the Feebles should make three $100 million movies. And then they'll probably be the three greatest franchise movies. Like franchise genre films. If there was nothing in between. If Meet the Feebles were his first film and then he went straight to Lord of the Rings. I mean it's closer to that. This is more like that than most other things where it's like, okay, the Frighteners exist, but it's not...

Well, in Heavenly Creatures and Oscar, not like me. You don't see Lord of the Rings in Heavenly Creatures. Well, I would argue you do, and we will talk about it when we do Peter Jackson, but obviously, yes, it was an insane risk to take at the time. It didn't make any sense. But the last of the steps.

This just feels like... But this is a smaller thing. Like, The Open Man is not the Lord of the Rings. No, but somebody was just like, I really think this person's going to make the best version of this. But it's also, it is such a serious minded movie that even if the risk is not super high in terms of like cost, it does feel like the kind of thing we're handing this over to Lynch to a lot of people would seem like,

if this goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong. The movie's embarrassing, he delivers something incoherent, it's up to your ass. And so like, why did we hire the weirdo guy to do this? What were the idiots we were? Weirdo guy who lives in a Bob's Big Boy. Has anyone committed to the bit harder than Lynch over their life? No, he commits to every bit as hard as possible and then drops it well as well. The Woody Woodpecker doll thing that gets recirculated like once a year.

Do you know this, Ben? No. He was like, I was at a gas station. There's a photo of him on a couch surrounded by like eight identical Woody Woodpecker stuffed animals. And they were like, what are these? And he's like, these were my sons. I loved them with my whole heart. I was at a gas station. I saw them sitting there, pegged in the window. And I said, I need to free them. They belong to me. I must adopt them and I carried them with them me everywhere they were like my my life my my love and

And we're like what happened to them and it was like things didn't end well with them After a couple years, I got bad vibes and I had to give them away He can just tell this story very straight and you're just like... He commits. Commits? What is going on here? Yeah. I love it though. Wait, I'm obsessed. You're absolutely right. He commits to the bit. Yeah. So hard. Even down to just he dresses so like... the same and he's always kind of had the same style.

Have you seen the red carpet video of Ebert talking to him at the Mulholland Drive Oscars? No, I just, I'm sorry. I need to read the Woody Woodpecker thing directly. It's two sentences, but it's so much better than I paraphrased it. It is one-tenth as long as Griffin's version of it. Yes. It's also exactly the same, but let's hear it again. He rescued five Woody Woodpecker dolls from a petrol station in 1981. So this is post-elephant man. You just added a sentence. I'm sorry. I screech on the brakes,

I do a U-turn, go back and I buy them and I save their lives. I name them Chucko Buster, Pete, Bob and Dan. And they were my boys and they were in my office. They were my dear friends for a while, but certain traits started coming out and they became not so nice. Then looking straight ahead, he added with a grim finality, they are not in my life anymore. So what he means is like, we redecorated and whatever one of my wives at the time said, can you please get rid of these stupid toys?

And she threw them out and I have to come up with some joke answer for what happened to them. But there were like 10 photos of him with them at different points in his life, yes. So none of you have seen the Mulholland Drive Oscars thing? No. It's amazing, so it's Ebert doing like Ebert's on the carpet. And he walks up and he's like, David, David,

when I saw this movie, it can, I asked you what it meant. And he just, he walks up and he's like, hello Roger. I asked you what it meant. And you said, if the movie's nominated for an Oscar, I'll tell you. So David, what does the, what does the movie mean? Nominated for one Oscar, right. And Lynch just looks at him and he's like,

always nice to see you, Roger. I have seen that. It is funny. I mean, this is only one movie removed from, no, it's two movies removed from Lost Highway, you know, the two thumbs down, two great reasons to see. But that's really funny.

It seems like there's a lot of respect between them. No, I think, yeah, yeah. He just, it's just, hello, yeah. It's just, hello, Roger. It's a very hello Newman-like line reading. Mel Brooks wants to cast Dustin Hoffman. He is convinced away from doing this with this sort of iconic line, we're always gonna be looking to see

where the Elfman ends and Dustin Hoffman begins. Would have been awful. It would have been nightmare. He would have been so over the top. Lynch wants to cast Jack Nance, which makes sense. He's the one guy who had been in a movie he directed. This is the only movie in Jack Nance's lifetime that Lynch made that he was not in. Right.

But then he does see the very, very, very famous in Britain mini-series, The Naked Civil Servant, which is sort of like an early launch pad for John Hurt, and was incredibly impressed by it. Funny to think about Lynch like taking in a clever British mini series. It's just so, he's someone who can't reckon. I'm like, no, that guy just sands furniture. And then you're like, no, someone sent him a DVD and he watched it. I know it's the 70s, so they sent him something else.

But right? Like, he's more, I mean, there was a vulture interview from a few years ago that I reread where someone was like Oh, yeah, do you watch things like I watched a lot of true crime. It's fascinating what these people do to each other out in the world He's not wrong. He just sits there. He's like, okay, I'm done You know with my my woodworking my painting my crazy clown time is over for the day I'm just crazy Netflix true crime time. He just sits there and watches this dog shit. The real crazy clown time. He's like, oh, look at that, they killed another lady.

He seems to just, I mean, he's totally normal despite what he would have you think. But that's the magic of him. But he's always like, I am normal. He is the one being like, no, I'm normal. The more normal the thing is he does, the weirder it then becomes. Right, you sit, fuck. I brush my teeth every morning and you're like, who the thing is he does the weirder it then becomes. You sit fucking over it. I brush my teeth every morning and you're like who the fuck is this guy? Methodical madness from David Lynch.

John Hurt is of course. One of the finest actors ever. He's a wonderful actor. He's nominated for Midnight Express, speaking of Midnight Express, at the 1979 Oscars. He's busy shooting Heaven's Gate, which is taking so fucking long that he made this movie in between bits of Heaven's Gate. This whole ass movie where he's covered in makeup. It's not like he does three scenes in this thing.

And he's wonderful. Lynch says, I don't know anyone better. I wanted him because he's a real actor and he got right into the role. But he just, I think, really loves the guy as a guy, too. Brooks and Kornfeldt, wisely, were like... Beyond just, is this maybe, is this performance out of Jack Nance's ability? It's also like, we need to push him a little bit outside of his comfort zone. Yeah, right. Give him someone who will challenge him.

He needs to work with someone different. Where does Hopkins come from? The original choice to play Frederick Treves, is that how you say his name? Treves. Treves. Is Alan Bates, who's a wonderful actor. Can wear a beard nicely. Absolutely, and be English, and honestly,

I do think he's a, I love Alan Bates, and he can be like very compassionate. Like, he's a little earthier than some of these guys. Hopkins comes in late apparently and they didn't get along. It's the one guy he plashed with. Yes. I think Hopkins, who there's lots of stories about him being a pretty tricky customer, like throughout his career.

Yeah. Like now he posts videos of listening to jazz and he's 90 years old and you love the guy. Sure. I think he's- Him and Lynch's online personas have really met in the middle of the line. Yeah, they've got me together, you're right.

Befoiled old men sitting in their house playing with their webcam. But I think Hopkins is said that- Hopkins is the one who's like, I was rude to him because I was like, who the fuck is this guy? He's made one movie? 10 years ago I rewatched and thought it was a masterpiece and I sent him a letter. But yeah, he who was like, I was rude to him, because I was like, who the fuck is this guy? He's made one movie. Ten years ago I rewatched it and thought it was a masterpiece

and I sent him a letter. But yeah, he was just like, this guy doesn't seem like a director. He doesn't seem like anyone I've worked with before. He doesn't have the credits. It must have been strange. Yes. Like how old is Lynch when he makes this film?

This is 19, like he's probably, let's say he's making it in 79. He's like 32. Like he's this like young American guy with this like sort of twangy accent. He's making this Tony British movie. A guy with real, he couldn't have been 32, right? He was born in 46. How old is he?

You know? He was 33? Wow. Yeah. I mean, you know, this movie's old. Right. I guess I just thought that by the time Eraserhead was finished, he was older. But no, he wasn't really.

And like, yeah, he kind of got to making movies fairly quick in a way. Like he goes through AFI and stuff and takes him a while. But apparently, yeah, Hopkins was the one who would fight him and be like, my character wouldn't do that or whatever. Which Lynch said, like, codified for him, I am never making a movie where I don't originate the characters again because I don't ever want to be

in a situation where an actor tells me my character wouldn't do that. Right, I want to be able to be like, yeah, like no, no, no, I know what the character does, do what I say, right, yes. I think Hopkins is incredible in this movie. He is so good in it. And he is, do you?

Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, like. There's nothing not amazing about this movie. Yeah, this movie's perfect. I mean, I basically agree. But it's also like, you know. I'm less passionate about this film do you? Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, like. There's nothing not amazing about this movie. Yeah, this movie's perfect. I mean, I basically agree. But it's also like, you know. I'm less passionate about this film than you two guys, but I also have no fault with it.

It was confusing, it was always confusing to realize, oh, that's Anthony Hopkins, like, a long time before Hannibal Lecter. I remember. Yeah. You don't think of him as existing prior to that if you're a kid. I remember a friend of mine watching this in high school and saying like, it genuinely looks like it's from the 40s.

And I was like, yeah, they did a good job approximating it. And they were like, the fact that Anthony Hopkins is in it breaks my brain a little bit. Because to like this friend of mine, they're just like, they don't know who Anne Bancroft is. John Hurt's caked under makeup. This is the only modern recognizable actor in the movie, even though he's much younger. it is undeniably Anthony Hopkins.

Is there any way you would know it was John Hurt if you weren't told? Like, no, right? Like the voice and the face. No, no, no. He's also not the most recognizable. I find him very recognizable. Well, he is because no one's ever looked like him. Right. And he has incredibly distinctive eyes, but I don't think those eyes are even directly recognizable within that makeup

It is it is such a fully transformative performance And I don't want to get ahead of ourselves here But like it is a performance that really makes me think about like what is acting because on paper It defies logic that as much of what he's doing comes across Right. This is a classic art. Is it just the makeup is so impressive and you're kind of being taken in by that? Right, it is a character, it is a man who lives within a set of extreme restrictions

and by the nature of the movie, they're imposing similar restrictions upon the actor that are in theory just masking and like burying anything he's trying to do. And his voice is obstructed in his face is obstructed He has this makeup. That's not only so comprehensive, but is but on purpose immovable Like it does not have flexibility and there's so many scenes where he doesn't speak There's so many scenes where he is wearing a bag on top of makeup on top of his head cool

Look, there is a bag is a cool Energy coming off of him in every single shot that is so palpable and real and deeply felt. It's very, like you think of these physical performances that someone could give within a bag. Yes. And his body, you know, he created a body language that, the body language is heartbreaking. Yes. He created a voice that, despite David's attempts to clown on it, which are insensitive at best and hateful at worst... I really don't appreciate how David started this episode.

Yeah. ...are... The voice is heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. And... And it is such... There was so much effort behind the voice. That's why it's heartbreaking. The first scene he tries to talk... You're sitting there and you're going,

I can't make it through this movie. This is going to be too painful to watch this guy try to communicate for two hours. But he does this thing that sort of is like what's magic about something like My Left Foot, although that's much more showy. Obviously, it's like he does so much with the one hand he has, that I think like the key to what's transcendent is the moments where you see him straightening his garments on the back of the hook with his good hand, or at the very end of the movie where he brushes off his sheets before laying down with his good hand.

He realizes like, I basically have one appendage to sell to people like the full physicality of what I can bring to this and he Overdoes it with the hand so much that you're like, this is a full performance Like yeah, he's doing everything and he's wait I'm really only and then the eye which you really only see one of yes the scene where the goons Storm in and then overtake him. He plays the entire scene with his eyes closed. Yes, which is Understandable he's being attacked. But he's taking out of the equation his one quality is one physical attribute that is actually nakedly visible to the audience.

But it's so visible that it's shut. Yes. That you're reading so much more into the performance with just an eye. Yeah. And... It is an astonishing performance. He's calibrated every choice to within like the Five tools he has right and the very nature of like does it matter who's underneath the elephant man suit?

You're barely gonna understand what he's saying and he's caked under makeup Yeah, how would the performance register like Hoffman would have been bad? Hoffman is the perfect example of someone who'd be bad and and the argument by the way Which is also sounds like a critic joke. The argument for what he's doing in the performance is basically like the story the movie is trying to tell about the man, of like slowly forcing yourself to engage with the spirit of the person underneath this thing. Can you imagine what circus would do with this in mocap?

The mind reels. I mean, I just like to imagine what like Bradley Cooper would do with this in mocap. The mind reels. I mean, I just like to imagine what like Bradley Cooper would do with this, like making a face. That's the thing I wanna see. Like some kind of a face. You guys see what I mean? Freddie Jones, who I also think is very good in this film and then is later in Dune as the initial minder.

He runs the sideshow. Yes, exactly. He's the exploiter. He runs the sideshow. Doesn't wanna do the movie, cause he's like, I think this is too one note, this character is just like the person who is mean to the elephant man. And Lynch says, you're right.

Right, Lynch is like, yeah, we should deepen him a little bit, we should like get a little more like, he does have some like limited patronizing affection for this person like it's not particularly positive but they incorporate that which is nice. John Gilgud Lynch says the guy's a saint. Father of Toby Jones by the way. Is that right?

Is that Freddie Jones? Yes. You know the Brits they're always making actors are always making actors. Actors be making actors. Him and the you know the coal shoveler guy who brings the people around to Merrick's room. I mean, as we discussed with Clockwork Orange, like, you know, in my mind, just growing up,

I was like, all British manner must be like this. They're just like, sniveling, cockney, drunken. And you met David when I guess I was right. There's two kinds. There's the John Gilgitite who's like, hello, I'm always in a tuxedo and I know the Queen. Right? And then there's the guy's like, oh, Governor, yeah, I eat rocks for breakfast.

He's a talking piece of coal. Salt is disgusting to me, too spicy. I just like the footy in Bovril. I just always think of the SNL, the British toothpaste commercial, where's the toothpaste with sugar? To get people to, British people to want to brush their teeth for the first time. And they cut to a close up of Chris Farley with giant mutton chops and the worst Austin

Powers teeth. And everyone's singing the praises of this toothbrush. And that just cuts to Farley andley goes and it tastes great on a Cracker and he squeezes the One of the finest things ever Lynch I think very impressed with Gil good. He liked that. He had Custom-made cigarettes and custom-made oval boxes. I mean obviously David Lynch loves cigarettes So he was probably like check out John John Cuecum's cigarette game.

Yeah. He's excellent in this film. Dexter Fletcher? Yeah, baby. Is Fred Jones' little... He bites his boy. Bites his boy. What did Ana say at the end? She goes, Dexter Fletcher from Lockstock? She's not wrong. He's from Stock. I said, I couldn't have pulled that out, but yeah, he's currently, you know, director,

rocket man. I was trying to just, you know, director, rocket man. I was trying to just, you know, what's his character's name in Lock Stock? Does anyone know? I don't know. What? She loves that movie. Like she was a teenage boy in England. In England, as I was.

Soap. He's called Soap. Hey, no. My friend was going to see Lock Stock. He's younger than me. Was his name Soap because he's filthy? Probably. He's fucking soap. It was going to see Lock Stock and I was trying to explain to her like, before she saw it,

I was like, you have to understand this was cool. It might not seem cool now. I have no idea how that movie goes over with no context. But you have to understand it was like no one had done this for 20 years and it was like school again to have like cockney gangsters wearing like big coats. A court type hat, lovely jubblies, what's your fucking line? Will Dexter, he's a great looking boy and I mean he's like a you know. Well he was a good kid actor.

He was a great little urchin. Just wild to think about him getting to be on this set when he was like nine. And then I said on Wikipedia, this might be not fact-checkable, that he was like he would have been Ronnie Rockett. Correct. He was definitely part of one version of Ronnie Rockett that was once put together vaguely. Just one. Because Lynch had worked with him.

An amazing film school to get to experience as a boy and you see the fingerprints of that experience all over Ghosted. Right. And apparently- Thank you, Alex. It's indescribable how proud of himself Griffin looks right now. He loves to mention ghosted. A film I watched in my brain put a sort of black hole warp around, like that it actually

wouldn't enter. The memory ghosted you. Right, exactly. The whole cast in this is incredible. And Bancroft is like, astonishing two scenes. Yes. Was she Oscar nominated? No.

She was not, she should have been. Right, well Kenny Baker. It's possibly a little too small of a performance. Kenny Baker, it's really nice to see Kenny Baker. Very happy to see him when he shows up. Ben, the little person who is the one who like leads freeing Merrick from the cage. He's dressed like a magician. Big, big goofy hat feather in it.

Is R2-D2. That's R2-D2. Oh wow, he's in Time Bandits too, right? He had a lot of live action roles. Now we gave him question marks on every single performance review of our Star Wars mini series. And Anthony Daniels was always very catty

when he was alive where he's like, I'm an actor. He's in a fucking bin, like what does this guy do? But he's like, there's one, there's a thousand lines in this movie that are heartbreaking, but when he's like, good luck, who needs it more than us? More than we? That's an incredible line. Just the look he gives him when he comes up to the cage and he's like,

we're going to get you out of here, is just immediately devastating. His great face. That guy has a great face. Everyone in this movie acts so sad. It's really an incredible feat for someone who'd not worked with professional actors. It's just the word I keep coming back to. It is such a wildly unsentimental film for a movie being so deep with feeling. But he's very, I mean, that's what's great about The Alchemy, is that he's clearly not a sentimental filmmaker,

even though he loves melodrama and is often perverting melodrama in many of his movies. And the humanist streak of him is so alive in this film and straight story. But even at the end of Blue Velvet, which is a violent, unpleasant movie, it's like there's beauty in this world. Like a plastic bag. Like he, yeah.

Well, that's the most beautiful thing in the world. That's what they're looking at. They're not looking at the robotic bird. But, you know, he believes in this beauty in the world. And I think this soot-filled, gas-lit movie is beautiful to him. And therefore he makes it beautiful for us rather than a more traditional Victorian thing where it's like, yeah, it's dingy and gross and everyone's kind of ill and these cockney guys are coughing on each other and there's the freak show and everyone... It's very beautiful because he wants it to be

Hannah Gordon is so goodness an actor. I'm not very familiar with who plays Trieb's wife. Mm-hmm and there's the scene where he brings Merrick over and Merrick complements her and she just basically breaks down hysterically crying at the Recognition of what a sensitive soul he is right? I mean, that's my read on that scene. Well, there's like 15 scenes in this movie where someone, eight of which are Merrick, just burst into tears at the slightest hint of vulnerability. Compassion, yeah. Which is like...

Empathy. It's very melodramatic here, but like that is a lynch. That's all like... The emotion's been at the surface. Half of Twin Peaks is women bursting into tears uncontrollably. And Mulholland Drive is women bursting into tears. People randomly expressing extreme emotion is really common in all of his movies. Well, the first 30 minutes of this movie is every character comes across and being like,

I hope he is dumb. I hope he is not. It would almost be better if he was not even cognizant of like what's happening here. Right. And so any time that he like finally starts to indicate to people the level of not just like consciousness but intelligence and beyond that sensitivity, it is like overwhelming to people to consider fuck and he's had to live this way his whole life. And then there's like an hour of people just being nice to him. Yeah, the movie is people being mean to him for a bit, then nice for a while, then mean

again for a bit, and then briefly nice again, but it's the end of his life. Yeah, it's very sensitively done, which is why I was like, I love everything about this, everything you're saying is valuable and fascinating. The content of the movie is very... There's not a lot of... There's not much... We could just list everything that's great about every scene. Of course we can, and we may, but like, yeah, right, what is the plot of this movie?

It's like, he is rescued right from a very, very ignominious situation. He's treated with more care and thought. The halfway point of this movie basically, almost, I mean I didn't take a stopwatch to it, but I think right about the halfway point is Merrick saying, Triebz, there's something I mean to ask you. Am I curable? Like, can you cure me? Incredible.

And he's like, no. I mean, it's just one of the best moments in anything. We can care for you. Yes. But then he says like, we can care for you. Yes. And it's like, yes, that's what they have to offer. But he just says, oh, I thought not.

It's just, it's Harper they have to offer. But he just says, oh, I thought not. Right. It's just, it's heartbreak. It's incredible. It is. I don't, again, like, who knows what the writing or the rewriting was, but the script is, every scene has some line in it that's just a perfectly distilled gut punch of sentimentality that is not played in like a treacly manner. Oh, Murray.

Yes, Griffin. Oh, my Lord, Murray. Yes, Griffin. Oh, my Lord, Murray. Griffin. It's been a busy season. It has been. Events. Yeah. Travel.

Sure. I have to travel from my apartment to the movie theater. I live five blocks away from to attend events like seeing Trap a second time. Which I wish I got to do because it really seemed like it unlocked the film for you even more. You still can. But here's the problem. OK. My wardrobe has taken a beating. My Lady Raven shirt is in tatters. Because you get so sweaty. It's been so humid.

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That's quince.com. Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash check. Where's Hopkins at in his career when he makes this? He had just done Magic. Right, which is a big film for him in terms of like his biggest leading man role at that point.

Right, kind of a flop, but it's like a Richard Addenborough movie. It's written by William Goldman. Yes, it is about a scary puppet. But like- Are you familiar with this film, Ben? It's Anthony Hopkins and a scary ventriloquist dummy that looks like Anthony Hopkins. It's kind of like Slappy Origins if you're a Goosebumps fan. The rumor has been that Sam Raimi is going to remake it, although there hasn't been any news on that in a while.

But it's a horror movie? It's a horror movie, directed by the man who did Gandhi and played John Hammond in Jurassic Park with young Anthony Hopkins and a very terrifying looking Anthony Hopkins puppet. I find puppets, ventriloquist puppets, really scary. Then you would be very scared by the movie magic. Most people love those guys. Yeah, I think they're coming back. They might be coming back.

Beyond that, it would be a while, Ben. That could be your new thing. It's Ben's like, I got a little puppet that looks like me that I put on my lap, then I carry him around. I'm trying to get over my fear by embracing it. Outside of that, it's right, like supporting roles in Lion of Winter, Hamlet, he of course was in Hamlet with Nicole Williamson who listeners may remember.

Oh, go ahead. What may listeners remember? He's probably known for his most famous role, Cagliostro, in the 1997 motion picture Spawn. So he's actually pretty good in Spawn. His final performance, he's incredible in Spawn. No, like, Hopkins, right, he's a reliable supporting actor and big theater guy. Yeah his movie credits He has good ones like Looking Glass War or you know, like, you know, um, he was in a doll's house I just watched that looking last word the Frank Pearson one. Yes, not a good movie. It's okay

I would say it was a very mediocre Far but like but then he has quite a robust TV movie career. He had been the star of this big War and Peace miniseries that was a big deal, blah, blah, blah. But yes, he is not a famous name in America, I would say. He's maybe just kind of approaching that. And then his whole 80s is more of what we're talking about. Well below in Alan Bates in terms of recognizable.

Definitely. Because Alan Bates is in big movies. But this levels him up seriously, but even then... No, it's really... Between 80 and 91, it's like, oh, the guy's officially made himself a proven actor, but he is not at the tier of guy he becomes until silence immediately makes him legendary. He's still a TV guy.

He won an Emmy for playing Hitler in like 1981. Nice work if you can get it. And like I would say The Bounty, which is not a very good movie, the Donaldson movie with Mel Gibson, is like maybe his biggest starring role where he's blie, he's sort of the villain. Silence of the Lambs is completely different, which is why his career in Silence of the Lambs is interesting of like, let's say now we have to turn this sort of late 40s actor into a mega star. And he's like 20th choice playing a guy who already isn't played by another guy in a flop

movie. Right. Now the thing that you may not know, Griffin, that I didn't know. Alex just went wants the bathroom Let's hope the toilet makes it through intact Is that David Lynch wanted to do the makeup for this film? and They were kind of like you're directing the film you're gonna be pretty busy

But he's like let me take a crack at you the eraser head model of like I am an artist I make all the things he starts working on a suit that he refers to as organic. He said it wasn't really a suit, it was layers of stuff, it just sort of needed some blending with John Hurt every day. Yeah, I mean, his idea was to limit application time by making a thing that was a little more piecemeal on and off, and then you're just actually blending the pieces into the flesh rather than needing to apply a bunch of different layers. At a certain point, everyone had to be like...

Well, I think they put it on him. They put something on him. Lynch says it was kind of a disaster, it was like concrete, he couldn't really move around in it. And to everyone's relief, Lynch was like, okay, well I tried and like backed off. But apparently it shook his confidence. Astounding in this.

Yes. It is wild. I was like, how does this not get a makeup nomination? Then you remember it's before that was a thing. They created the makeup category at the Oscars in response to this film. Yeah. Whoa, really? Yes.

And like people were kind of like, why can't it win an award? And they're like, well, we don't have one. I guess we'll make one. So but apparently it did fuck him up. He was upset that he couldn't pull this off. They have to rearrange the entire schedule so they shoot everything without John Hurt first so they can figure out the makeup. Yeah.

Your classic kind of... Well, a lot of movies would cover it like this Robocop and Predator and whatever. Right, like, oh shit. You're a titular character. Right. Yeah, has made this change. Yes, Robocop, it's well enough being able to use the suit. Mel Brooks calls David and says,

I want you to know we're behind you a thousand percent. Calms him down. Yeah. The thing I love about the makeup is there is a quality of it feeling like the cocktoe version of how they would realize this character. Yes. There's a certain degree of like conscious, I wouldn't even say artificiality, but like a more classical technique than even what prosthetics were in 1980.

Sure. It took seven hours to put on. Believe it. Every day? Yep. I wondered watching it... Yes? Does, you know, that makes sense if it's the whole body, but since a lot of the movie... Right, it's just the face.

I do wonder... I don't know. Did they put on like, you know, the entire neck to waist? I don't know. Right. It's just the face. I do wonder, I don't know, did they put on like, you know, the entire neck to waist? They just say, was there like a sort of dummy version of that that could be put on easily that provided the same shape? But even in my experience, even if it cut the time down, it still would take several hours to put on all the pieces, even if there aren't the pieces that need to play on camera. The shapes. Hurt would only shoot every other day.

He would get to set at 5 a.m. He would sip for seven hours. He would sip raw eggs mixed with orange juice because he couldn't like eat anything. I mean look, it doesn't look easy, but it's one of those things where I was watching this. And he'd shoot from like noon until 10. And I was like, if you are someone like John Hurt

with that level of emotional intelligence and skill, and obviously just like innate empathy, right? It must have been really easy to get there. You go through the seven hours to get into this physical form, and then it's like so much of what's motivating your character is the actual physical limitations that have been placed upon you. Has there at this point been anything comparable? Now you hear eight hours in the makeup chair

to transform whatever. To make a clump, yes. To make a clump, for example. Takes about eight hours a clump. Where was that process at at this time? Because I really, obviously there are things like that. There's your little big men. There's things that are like, oh wow, but even still,

I feel like that process, as you're saying, there's no award for it. It's basically a brand new thing of like, we can put so much on you that it takes a day to do it. It is hard to think of another movie that predates this in which like your primary character is this fully transformed for the entire running time where it's not even like yeah I wonder well as on a reference and as the movie sort of does with the train station scene you have like your Frankenstein yeah, right is that very very truly But those characters in those forms are in those movies less than you remember and they also were like a ton of stuff I'm a head 15 minutes of a 70 minute right and then it's like a costume with some padding

Yeah, you know that's close. That's as close as it gets but there's 50 years in between Yeah that process and I thought about Frankenstein when he knocks the little girl over before screaming the line He said he feels very Influenced by James well, which seems like one of the few Types of films or filmmakers that Lynch would allow himself to acknowledge as having seen? Yeah. I've never heard him say it, but this film has that energy. That's interesting.

Yeah. I mean, he says he used the black and white kind of, you know, for obvious reasons. He thinks color is too vivid, too real. Like it helps you, you know, feel like you're in the past. Obviously it was what he had worked with on Eraserhead. So he's more used to it. But it's strange that he doesn't, you know, he's a black and white guy in my mind

from the power of the shorts. Yes. Eraserhead, this. Doesn't really do it again. The return, episode eight, becomes kind of, almost his return to black and white. And like, it's so wild to think of him going straight from this to full color Dune. It is. I mean, it's crazy to think of, yeah, it is. It's crazy to think of him going straight from this to full-color Dune. It is. I mean, it's crazy to think of it. Yeah, it is. It's crazy to think of him making Dune.

It's all crazy because of how much he's mythologized. Yes. Yes. In culture and how much he's like he was like this young gun that a lot of people on the set are like Who's this guy and by the end they kind of have more grudging respect. And Hurt says, I think he grew as an artist, making it. By his own account, he has some doubt if he can pull it off and all of that. But this movie opens with like, I don't know,

like three minutes of like audio visual poetry that feels very much like the opening of Eraserhead. It's something that when you come back to this movie for the second or third time, you're like, oh, this really, because you spend the intervening years watching the rest of his movies, you're like, elephant man's kind of an outlier. Then you put it back on and in the beginning,

you're like, this feels exactly like a David Lynch movie. Industrial noise and slow motion footage of elephants and angel women. In my head, there's more of this. Always, in my head, there's so much more of this. There's not. He makes it count. But again, there's more of this. Always. In my head there's so much more of this. And there's not. But again, there's this kind of extremely unpleasant soundtrack screaming of this woman. Again, a very lynched sound effect to just have this vague sense of terror piercing into the movie.

I also like that he's thinking about, because obviously the whole thing with John slash Joseph Merrick is like, we to this day don't totally know what was up with him. They now think he had this thing called proteus symptom, which is like an incredibly rare syndrome, incredibly rare disease that makes your tissue grow in weird ways. But like that's something that like a few hundred people have had ever or whatever. But they don't even know they've done like tests on him, right? And we still, you know, like on the bones and ancestors.

His bones are in a museum. Well, yes, but you have to have special permission to see them. I think you need to be like, are you thinking of the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia, Ben? No, I just, I looked at his, they have a cast of him at the, at the, obviously, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson, the skeleton. Or is that just an urban legend? I mean, or maybe it's an urban legend. him at the movies. Yeah, obviously, Michael Jackson. I was gonna say, Michael Jackson at the Skeleton, or is that just sort of an urban legend? No, he tried to buy it.

I mean, or maybe it's an urban legend. It's one of those classics, like, you believe any story. I thought the same. There's not even a reference to it on Wikipedia, so it must have been scrubbed from anything. Resembling fact. Right, I mean, you know. Watching the movie and thinking about-

They called him Whacko Jacko, I don't know. I've heard that before. Who said that? I'm just repeating what I've heard. It don't want grounds. You come back to the movie and you've convinced yourself, oh yeah, well the elephant man was like that because his mom was run over by an elephant. That's what I mean.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I feel like Lynch is like, I want to try and think about some abstract origin for this person even if we'll never actually address it in the film. Also, the little special feature on the Criterion is interesting with this historian who's like a real American historian. some abstract origin for this person, even if we'll never actually address it in the film. Also, the little special feature on the criterion is interesting with this historian who's like a real Merrick historian. I think he belongs to the university medical academy where his remains are. But Merrick basically believed that his entire life.

There was no reason at the time to second guess what it's, matriarchal imprinting or something. Like the experiences the mother has would imprint on a fetus while in the womb. Right, so like she's like got run over by an elephant and then it created. Or had an encounter with an elephant. More simply that she was just frightened by one. And you know, like, okay, I've said a couple times, like the content of this movie is perfect, but not complex. Like, the Merrick story, what's complex and interesting is that the movie does adhere fairly closely to his story.

There's a couple of dramatic license flippings of events, but it even mentions, like, he wasn't like this at birth and it seems to vary, did this start when he was two or five, but he did have a normal life for a little while. And the love of his mother that seems to be like a very melodramatic driving force in the movie is very real. And a lot of what was known about him is that at his exhibit at the sideshow or whatever

it would have been called, he wrote or he had like dictated like a little pamphlet of his own life story from which most of his details are known. Right. And obviously we can only know so much because it's this recollection from him. Yeah. But essentially like what the movie gets right is that he'd run away and had been, you know, he's trying to make money, you know, a showing here and there. Working factories, but he had these increasing issues and deformities and

things like that that made it harder and harder for him to do anything. And you get the sense that he learned it was safer for him as a defensive measure to let people think that he was not intelligent. Right, right. Which is heartbreaking. Yes. At one point he had surgery on his face, I think, to try and deal with it when he was like a teenager. I mean, Lord knows what surgery really looked like

or whatever, but you know something. Attacking someone with a rusty blade. While you're awake. That had been held over a flame, yes, while the person is awake. And then, right. What was the surgery scene in this movie? He realizes I have to leave the workhouse

and the only way is to like be a human novelty, right? I mean, I'm scrubbing through the movie now It is truly minute 30 when you see him for the first time the movie has like made such an effort around Right and you're seeing him in shadow abstracted in Silhouette and eraser head does similar tricks. Yeah some of the practical effects Yes Conceals them in a way that you feel like you're seeing them a lot and you feel like they're in a lot more of the movie than they are.

Yeah. But the thing with this is, right, you don't see it much at all, and then you do see it lots. Like, then he is once he's... Then he becomes, of course, the primary character. Right, exactly, he is the lead of the film. Right, the first three minutes,

Hopkins is really driving the movie. Yes. And then it's when the maid opens the door for the first time, you get this incredibly clear unvarnished shot of just him sitting in bed and she just immediately breaks into tears. But also like in terms of the craft of this movie and the sort of like the Lynch, you can't believe he has it in him.

When Hopkins sees him at the exhibit, it's the Spielberg shot. It pushes in on him as a tear runs down his face, and it goes on for 10 seconds longer than you think this reaction shot will. And that is kind of, you feel your introduction to him, but it is such a empathetic shot. But it is a shot that now is a cliche, because Spielberg's used it 100 times,

but to see Lynch do it at a time, the Spielberg would have maybe only done it twice. He's kind of not inventing, but it's like parallel thinking of this idea. And Hopkins brings humanity to that moment, and you... Whatever he's looking at, he's crying, but not out of fear, just out of sadness. Well, and just, like, he's processing this guy's life. He's trying to project. It's not just, oh, what pain he must be in. It's right.

Like, how has he been living for so long? Like, you know, what horror must he have been? Here's another example of like, let's assume for the sake of argument that this was a John Hurt decision. Yeah. Is the woman comes in, as you're just saying, and is startled, frightened. She drops... It's basically treated as like a universal monster, this horror scream moment.

She drops the porridge. Yes. Immediately starts crying, turns away, powers in fear. Talking to Kargam and then he comes up. He hears the scream, he runs up. And he goes in and let's just imagine that Hurt is his decision to say, when you come in I'm going to be hiding in the corner. Yeah.

Now that could have been written or it could have not been written, but like the way it's framed very far away and then the intervening two minutes that Merrick is so upset by this interaction, that he's not sitting on the bed, he's not crying, he's just gone to cower in the corner. As a physical acting choice, it conveys more than almost anything could. And as a visual storytelling choice,

it's like, you can't believe that the guy who made experimental short films and an experimental feature has the Craft to just have a wide shot of a main character Expressing such emotional sadness from across the room because he's hiding in a corner because he's sad well and another incredible decision is Hopkins hears the scream. He immediately knows what's happened right he runs upstairs She's like in hysterics crying and like borderline convulsing. And Hopkins walks right past her into Merrick's room.

And goes like, are you okay? And then circles back to her. And goes like, I'm sorry, I should have given you notice. But it's like you're waiting to see who he's going to console first when he starts running up the stairs. And there's also like, it's clear that Lynch, his entry into this is that he finds

the inner workings of a steam and coal and gas powered building the size of this hospital very fascinating. Yes. Like he clearly loves the idea of this industrial space. He loves the smokestacks. He loves the coal shoveling. There's always this really loud humming in the entire building that you imagine is the steam that's powering a lot of it.

There's a lot of business with turning the gas lamps on and off. It becomes more ominous when you're also like the guy shoveling the coal to run this place is also the guy within the building who's exploiting him the most and is the sort of looming specter. The inner workings of the clock. Right. That's so loud. I also feel like that's the clock seems to really upset Merrick.

The world, if you dig below the world, there's like a big wheel that a bunch of men are turning who are shirtless while someone goes like bang, bang. That's just how he thinks about the world. Especially, he doesn't know Victorian London at all and he visits London, this one was shot in London, which is where I grew up. Interesting point about me. It's almost unfair when you do it like this.

Well, when he's here, I'm gonna do it like this. I'm just picturing the guy running the exhibit and a little boy and David Is the boy David's Dexter Fletcher? And he's out there And he's kind of just like carrying plates at the pub for a shilling or two here and there. His soot covered face. Yeah Were you really sooty? Were you a sooty child? Was I a sooty child? I like sooty the British puppet character. That's not what we were asking you to know.

Okay, but can you tell me Soody's sidekick? No, I don't know what the fuck Soody is. Wait, hold on, let me try and guess. Dirt? No, Sweep. Soody and Sweep? Here's Soody. Soody is not dirty at all.

Soody's pretty cute. Soody's pretty cute. And Sweep is a little dog. Maybe I should show that to my dog. Well, Soody looks like a dog. Is this a show? Yeah, Sweep's also a little dog. Oh, they're both. It was a show.

Yeah, British children's show. Cute. Anyway. London was disgusting in those days, huh? Well, back then, certainly, yes. London now obviously. In the 1980s. Oh yeah, when I lived there, yes.

They were still burning coal fires in everyone's house. Yes, no. Lynch is like, I was a naive guy. I'd never been to England, right? Like I was like, maybe I'll read some books and study some photos and that. And then he said, I went to East London. I walked around this hospital where we shot a lot of the film, Homerton Hospital, which I think back then was like, had not been revamped.

It was probably pretty old school feeling. And he said, something came over me and feeling invaded me and I was transported to like Victorian England. Like I just felt everything doing this, which I think is obviously often his process, right? But it's interesting that he makes no period piece again ever. And I would argue that is interesting. Nails it beyond, this is so incredibly done and thusly rewarded by the Academy in the classic way that something like this would.

You would think that he would be very interested in using his films to explore these parts of time that he doesn't have access to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree. As we've discussed, like, this is now... As projects that are, like, pastiche, where Lost Highway and Blue Velvet both seem to have a foot in the 50s. But they're not overtly...

But it's just, you know, this is now this ongoing, infuriating debate of like, why do all of our great filmmakers not care about the present? They're afraid of cell phones! But like, you would think he would just be someone that retreated into the past. And in a way, you know, very... Metaphorically, he has. He's always right, got the vibe. But he literally doesn't.

And that's very unusual. Once again with this, like, you almost wonder what his career would have been You know, very metaphorically he has. He's always got the vibe. But he literally doesn't. And that's very unusual. Once again with this, you almost wonder what his career would have been like if he'd done two more movies like this. Because this is so well done. It is interesting to think about, let's say he still gets to Blue Velvet,

but rather than spending so much time on Dune, like, right, he makes like odd, interesting, but mid-sized studio films for a while. But I don't think that's a thing. I think this movie works out so well for everybody, right? That it's like, oh, this works. There's a midpoint between David Lynch and the demands of a studio film. He can bring things to somewhere a little more interesting, but the audience will still follow it there. And then Dune is like trying to stress test that on a humongous scale.

And it is so bad that he's just never going to try again to like meet anyone in the middle. It's very, it's very interesting. And obviously you'll get there. But Twin Peaks really is like the dividing line. Like everything before that is really one version of a career. And then the phenomenal success and insane flame out of that clearly breaks him. And then he doesn't, after Wild at Heart,

Fire Walk with Me, Close Together, he is five years of inactivity practically. Making furniture, we'll talk about that. After many years of quite prolific activity. And Lost Highway, okay, Straight Story, of course, off to the side again, but almost feels like Lost Highway is like movie number one, take two. And then Straight Story is like Elephant Man, Side Step, take two. The Mulholland Drive is like Blue Velvet.

We're going to get back on track. But it's also Twin Peaks, take two. It's him trying to do a second Twin Peaks and then when that doesn't work, it becomes a second version of blue velvet. Yeah, and then he makes a second version of Twin Peaks. He really mirrored his own career in a very weirdly lost highway-ish way. He did the whole thing again. The back half of his career is the Getty. He kind of did the exact same plays again.

Is the Getty. It kind of did the exact same plays again. He's got the Getty. It's a temporal pincer movement. He runs it backwards and forwards at the same time. And Aaron Taylor Johnson did call Lynch's career cowboy shit. I will point that out. He called it that. Yeah. But it's a very, obviously a one of a kind career, but this weird kind of like, I'm just

going to do it all again, but I'm not going to make the mistakes. I'm not going to make the studio movies I don't want to make. I'm not going to go too far down the road with things. I only do Twin Peaks if I have complete control and unlimited resources and I can finish it the way I want. Like, it's very strange if he really hit a lot of the same beats twice.

Yes. Almost, as I said, almost undeniably with more successful and consistent results. I would say at least consistent in terms of audience reaction. Not that I think any of these movies are better than Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, or The Elephant Man, but one could argue that the second part of his career is. Is there a Lynch project that you've never liked

or vibed with or struggled to respond to or whatever? No. Yeah, you like him all. Yeah, I mean, he's been colossally important to or whatever. No. Yeah, you like them all. Yeah, I mean, he's been colossally important to me forever. I've never seen Dune. You've never seen Dune? No, because I always wanted to read the book before I saw it.

And you read all the books. Then I read the book and I thought, well, now I want to read all of them. I'm about to finish Chapter House, I forgot to tell you, I finally did it. No, you're not done yet, you got two more. No, no, no, Chapter House is the final Frank. I know, but you'll get to the end of it.

I know it has a cliffhanger. And you'll be like, because I was thinking that's it. I got to the end and I thought, shit, I really want to keep reading. And then the last two are great. The ones his son did. Yeah, the names of which is Sandworms. They're wonderful. They're really worth reading

and they're much breezier reads. Obviously. But they're really, really good. And yeah, I just never got around to it because I wanted to familiarize myself with the world of June 1st. And I was going to, if I had more time, I would have watched it before this.

I suspect I'll like it a lot. It's a pretty good movie with a lot of massive problems. I'm not, you know how there are Twin Peaks people? Like I'm not a Twin Peaks person. I don't have like this encyclopedic knowledge of Twin Peaks. I've seen the entire series a few times. And I like it a lot. I've seen Fire Walk with me many times.

But I don't, I'm not like someone who's like, I'm going to the Black Lodge. Right, who know every single in and out and tiny character. These guys have never seen it. In the new version. Oh no, I've seen it. Ben's seen it. You've seen all of it? I fell off basically after the...

And you haven't seen the return. I don't know how to give it... I don't want to give anything away. But I kind of... It came to a certain point. Yes, I understand. And then I didn't really continue. You and many...

When I was around this time watching these movies, a friend of my dad's from work had all of Twin Peaks taped. He taped it when it was on. Sure. And it was of course unavailable. Some of the way I saw it is that I got one tape at a time from this buddy of my dad's. Two episodes per tape and I watched them for months. And you know, it felt illegal.

Like there was no, it was was like how can this have existed? Ben's got a tape right there, but see this guy Oh, was that from the uncle bag that is from the uncle bag which episode that's pretty late. It's got the a on the spot It's 20 through 24 Okay, so that's season 2. Yeah Yeah, I'm I there's nothing I mean, you know Yeah, dumb mean, there's nothing, I mean, you know, yeah, Dumbland is horrible. Rabbits was fine. I like Rabbits.

It was fine. It was crazy Rabbits. On the Air is fine. Never seen it. On the Air is very weird. Sure, I mean, I believe it. But like, have you guys read, did you read the David Foster Wallace piece about him?

Yes, of course. You mean The Lost Highway Beings? Ben? We discussed it on that episode. Okay, I reread most of it this morning. I mean, I think the best thing written about Lynch, I think it's easily the best, I mean, obviously thousands of things

have been written about him. I think this is the best piece ever written about him. I think it's the most concise attempt to understand him written by a Gen Xer who has had his life changed by his work and specifically as he talks about by seeing Blue Velvet. And I think it's just like one of the best pieces of film journalism ever written.

I completely disagree with you, but I do like his writing. You completely disagree? I hate that art piece. You hate it. Really? It's annoying. We get into it in the Lost Highway episode.

I don't remember, that was 18 years ago. But I do think it's a fun piece of writing. I like reading it in a way. But I don't... I don't know. He speaks very highly in it of... Yes. ...Elephant Man, very briefly, but he lists it among his best films. Sure. Because he says his best films have very fully human-realized characters,

which this does in the emotional ways we're talking about, that according to Wallace, Sailor and Lula are not fully realized characters. They're very... I would say he's writing that piece in this era of kind of like Lynch has really been struggling of late, right? You know, which is sort of the move around Lost Highway. This is meant to be his comeback and it gently is, but not really. Not at the time.

No. Yeah. I can't believe you but not really. Not at the time. No. Yeah. I can't believe you hate that piece. It's the best. It's film writing. I don't like it. Well, it's not criticism. It's film journalism.

Yeah. Name a better, like, I went to the set of this movie. I don't want to. I would like you to. David, do it. No, I don't want to right now. Do you have one? I just can't.

No. Ty, stop fighting. I just can't do it. It's just not in me. It's an incredible piece that does really get at what is this guy's deal at a time that he'd fallen out of favor. Industrial Symphony No. 1 and On the Air, these things were all like 92 and then there's just nothing for years. He's cooked is the thought.

Again, we will talk about this on the Lost Highway episode with your friend David Lowry. Not to spoil. Not to spoil, just spoil the hell out of this. Spoil the hell out Highway episode. With your friend David Lowry. Yeah. Not to spoil. You didn't. Not to spoil. You just spoiled the hell out of it. Spoiled the hell out of it. We can report it for weeks. You can spoil it.

More than weeks. Right? I mean, we did a classic DL. We can tell people. We don't have to hide it. OK, but they can't tell anybody. That's a good point. If you're listening.

Don't tell anybody. Shh. What's David doing? He's putting on a baseball cap and then keep it under your hat. Not a Montreal Expos hat. No, I don't have my Expos hat today. Alex is very fast. You just have a hat among the pile of things on your desk. Okay. All right. Yes. Jack Skellington. Yeah, there's a, right now.

Doll that rescheduled you for your daughter months ago. I have a pile of things on my desk. Well, you know what? Ben, you know that right now, me coming home with things is not well received in my house. Oh, I never thought of it that way. Yeah, so I come home slowly with extra things. Do you want the slinky? I do want my slinky.

Oh, wow, wow, wow! I want it for here, it's like a fidget. That'd be a nice sound for people. Ben bought want my slinky. Oh, wow, wow, wow! I want it for here, it's like a fidget. That'd be a nice sound for people. Ben bought me a slinky. Imagine how it played out, Alex. He got him a fucking steel slinky. Yeah, cool. I thought it would be fun.

Now every episode requires eight editing passes. It's needed across like three to four episodes that are not in order of me having a slinky and then Ben taking the slinky away from me. Almost like a tangled slinky. Yes, yes, truly. A very lynchian object. Pinked and stretched out of whack. Okay, I'm sorry to point out the pile.

Elephant man. Elephant man. My pile is not gonna burn in his pile anyway. I mean, the middle hour of the movie. That is true. I mean, every scene is perfect and it's a lot of the same stuff happening as his social status increases and after Anne Bancroft visits, there's a series of increasing, his dignity

is building as the... Yes. Bancroft plays an actress and I feel like Lynch is very interested in like, Merrick's like limited but intense relationship with art, right? Like, you know, it's like, that's a whole further sort of dimension of life. I mean, it's a very cool, you have your, is this UK or? I got the British, the Studio Canal 4K set, but it has the pop-up of the cathedral.

Here's what I can say, Dem Gershon's Blu-ray Pile. Mahalan Drive, straight Story. Wild at Heart. Dune. Mejo Black. The Elephant Man. Correct. These are films for covering. If people want to reverse engineer release order, these are things we haven't recorded yet.

Fair enough. Griff, can I give you huge news? Please. Vulture is launching Saturday and Sunday Cinematrix. This is huge. Holy fucking shit! Let's go! Wow. Ben's never looked more blank.

Ben, not a Cinematrix guy, I think. No. I got very mad at Cinematrix the other day because for the Sarah Michelle Gellar, it was one word I put Scooby Doo and it said no. I think it should give you the yes on that. I do think. As a hyphenated? Yes. But in the movie, that's a hyphenated. Yes, I think in the movie It's not hyphenated. Am I right that no one knows that I know that

In this world I like the idea that no one knows that It's just not known One guy who knows nobody knows that to me how that title is I know How that title is Largely on the posters there is a hyphen However, there is one where there is not which is not helping matters when the title came up in the typing bar It was having it. I would say it's interesting. I ate shit on that today Because I guess I mean I like I just bought I was like, yeah as we discussed Griffin I get very hung up on the Rotten Tomatoes ones.

I was like, Matt Damon, Rotten Tomatoes. I was like, I don't fucking know. Interstellar? No! Not 80% on Rotten Tomatoes! It was a masterpiece! What the hell are we talking about here? People were a little mixed on it.

Exactly. Mixed to the extent of 81%, I assumed. We have a group text with the Clem Dogg, Sean Clemens of Hollywood Handbook, where we post our Cinematrix grids every day and talk through our strategy. And every Saturday morning, Sean will text some incredibly funny variation on, ah, Saturday, the day I wish I were dead. Right.

No grid to play. So it's coming Saturdays and Sundays. So it's great news for Sean's children. Right. Now, now. Daddy's sticking around. There to me is just such a gulf between Cinematrix I play in the morning before coffee and after. I'm so much sharper with the coffee. I got the other day the Glenn Powell, Ethan Hawke, Richard Linklater. Even though I played Maverick for Glenn Powell, I still got top 1%.

Because I had so many 3 2s and 1%. I love that they've added the lowest correct score thing. Yeah, but that's bullshit. But here's what I liked about it. When you look at that, you're like, to me more, the Comedy Central roast of Bruce Willis. Well, some of that shit shouldn't count. Yeah, get the fuck out of here. Some of that shit seems like people looked it up.

And documentaries where they're talking head or whatever. But that day, three out of the nine squares, the lowest correct score was Apollo 11 and a half. Yeah, I guess I had that in there. There was no place you could play it that wouldn't win for you. I had that in there, but then also for Hawk, the many words in the title, In a Valley of Violence, I got 1%. Oh, that's a good one. And then I dropped for like a certain the year bracket adopt a highway 1% Mmm, I put Top Gun Maverick for Glenn Powell and every other thing I had was one or two percent I got 1% of the whole game. I put Dark Knight Rises for three plus words for yeah I was really happy with that. That's good. I did spike its 3d game over. Of course

I didn't know he was in that he plays a boy with long fingers one of my favorite movies of all time the elephant man Yeah, it's a struggle. Wow, yeah. I tell you guys I dressed up as The Elephant Man for Halloween one year. No, how'd that go over? Great. I'd never been happier as concealed as I was.

How did everyone else feel about it? I don't know. I could barely see them. Can I say this about, I've known you for a while at this point, Alex. I do feel like when you'll say like, I did this, or this happened, and I'll say'll say oh how did that go your Answer is either gonna be like great best thing that ever happened was wonderful or like horrible

Like here here. Here's why you rarely like it was fine Well such as I'm like what you think of the Thor five Thor farts in a cup and you were like, it's great I've got a great time. This was a great film To something as a great time. This was a great film. My new favorite Alex system is you're referring to something as a total F. Yeah, well that happens. We were talking about theme parks recently. It could be like a life experience. And you said any ride with a screen is a total F for me.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, like a couple years ago a friend of mine had me take the like, the personality test thing and I was like, I don't understand how this test work. Everything, every one of these questions, the answer can only be five or one. And she was like, that's your personality, that's not true. Most people wouldn't say. You tend to just be like a thumbs up, thumbs down. Every single question, it's like,

how strongly do you feel about this? And I was like, the answer is either five or one. I don't need the other answer. I nailed it then. I don't need the two, three, or like, who feels three about something? This is insane. It's Yeah, you're confusing I feel like you roasted me about this the the Thor 4 thing is just that it had four Guns and Roses songs in it

So therefore is an automatic B plus. I don't make the rules You also sometimes say the same thing. We'll see you don't make the rules when clearly you made a very specific rules We'll see you don't make the rules when clearly you made a very specific rules About any movie where you're able to eat popcorn Well yesterday when we all saw bad boys ride or die We're sure if and coincidentally yeah, I couldn't eat popcorn because I was still so sick Oh, I'm doing the experience. I'm surprised the the film still came out ahead with you Yeah But it would have been half a star better if I had gotten if I had been Feeling healthy enough to eat any popcorn and that reflects upon the film. It's like scooby-doo hyphenated not being one word

I don't make those rules. So I'm looking well you actually don't make those rules. I'm looking here It seems like almost every scooby-doo TV show his name has been hyphenated the first movie It is not scooby-doo two monsters unleashed it is I should have just you know I made my first live-action scoobyDoo is the one that isn't hyphenated, but also it tends to be referred to as Scooby-Doo unhyphenated colon the movie. SD2? Well, that's SD2 Monsters Unleashed. Yeah, I don't make the rules.

Dressing up as the Elephant Man was awesome. Was it for Halloween or? Yeah, no, it was for Halloween. Sure. It would be very weird if it wasn't. I don't know. Did you put it with sack over the head? I made it myself. I'll send you guys a picture of it.

Please. For sharing when this comes out. I made the entire costume myself. The back head. I made the head with a lot of, it was like a series of deconstructed T-shirts with a lot of like sewn in pouches so that the outside of it looked smooth,

but the inside of it had lots of lumps where they needed to be. One eyehole stitched correctly. I made a cap. I love his cap. I made a cloak, I made a thing for my arm, and then the other arm I carried a cane. And I wore like herringbone pants.

You know, like when he gets dressed up, when he gets his clothes. And you know, I just went out and I just like stayed like that all night. Is it to me that it is the perfect way to be out in public? I felt no offense to people who suffer with I was also John Merrick in this film does not agree. No, but he is also he is happy to be out sometimes like sometimes. Yes. Well, but there's also this sort of tragedy in that like he is now liberated enough in a way to have a window out to the world, right? Like once he's ensconced with the doctor and like, and that is his undoing. Like then people start to stare at him through the window and they kidnap him.

It is the part of the movie I find most devastating to watch is when the Boiler Man character, who I mean it's very shortly after the maid sees him and you're seeing Merrick for the first time. The scene where the Boiler Man meets him for the first time is like within minutes of that. And it is jarring to see someone else walk into the room and be so unaffected by his visual appearance when the movie has been hiding him from us.

And then immediately he's just like, we're going to make so much fucking money together. Well, it's this incredible thing that is in these great British period piece film. When the nurse at the end, when Hopkins is like, when he came here, you showed him no regard. And she's like, I cleaned him, I cleaned up after him. And it's like, there is this class story being told in the background of this movie as there is yes literally or not in all films set in Britain like yeah these people like this like the soot people don't care yeah they they're there for the titillation

well beyond that they they live lives of abject toughness and they are not as shocked by seeing someone like you know, like... I mean, but that is... Who comes there with the two women and he's almost using as an aphrodisiac to feel more powerful about himself. I mean, that's just so, that scene could be in any Lynch movie.

Yes. Like that, a guy with two women who are screaming in terror as he forces himself on them, like that could be in Lost Highway. That scene could be in Twin Peaks The Return. But the part of the film that devastates me the most is when the Boiler Man, I keep calling him that, but is like gathering a larger audience, right?

It's like, oh, cause he's been coming in and out of the film occasionally. It's this thing that, again, the movie doesn't spell this out, but he's been maybe bringing one or two people to the window and then you're like, he's taking it too far. He's bringing a tour bus. And Merrick's self-regard is so low that he doesn't want to say it to anyone else. There's this feeling of him being like, why would I deserve any better? This is a better version of the dynamic that's been going on for most of my life.

The movie then makes text, which Hopkins brings up and then does get kind of dropped where it's like, am I just doing the same thing? Which I think Hopkins just destroys that scene. It's incredibly melancholy, but like, you do think like Merrick could say like, people come to my room, you need to lock my room or put it somewhere else. Yeah.

Which is, which would be very humane. But he never tells, he never says anything, he never tells anybody. No, it's very interesting that that doesn't happen. But it makes sense. It does make perfect, the movie doesn't put a fine point on almost anything despite the fact that it is an incredibly blunt and literal movie. That's exactly it.

But this is why I'm saying, like, the thing I find most devastating is when the Boiler Man is like building, gathering this tour group, right? And you just cut back to Merrick in his room and he's brushing his hair and like adjusting his outfit. But then he has his little dressing kit. And he's dressing himself up to the nines for no specific reason not to go anywhere. But you're seeing the sense of like pride he has in himself and comfort and like the care he's putting into himself for the first time. And you just know how violently this is about to be punctured. Because you've been waiting for something to go wrong because I think they've been going great for him

I mean the clothes you get is they're gonna they're gonna go harder on him Which they basically do the second they open the door of like and because you're dressed up now and Freddie Jones You know is sneaking back. Yeah, you know that like right the guy who's been trying to get him back is coming this time, right? So it feels worse and and it's gonna have this upper hand to be able to go like, hey, I treated you better than this. Again, like a very Lynch thing, again, how does this movie fit in? Like, it's very much like the apartment in Eraserhead and some other key locations where like,

Merrick's room, the way it changes is the movie goes on. And I was kind of shocked to see this wasn't Jack Fisk production design. Yeah, it does feel like him. It's kind of like one of the only ones. But also above the board craft. I mentioned the Freddie Francis cinematography I think is the key to your friend saying this looks like the 40s because his 60s British

gothic cinematography and directing is, he's just one of the great underrated heroes of British cinema. DP, Sons and Lovers I think is one of the great underrated heroes of British cinema. DP, Sons of Lovers, I think is one of the Jack Carpenter movies. He's an absolute master. A little astonishing that this movie wins zero Oscars. A lot of it is just the year it happened to be stuck in. I was about to say it's the year.

But you just watched and you're like, it didn't win any of these? Yeah, the editing is incredible, the way the scenes kind of cut off. There's not a tremendous amount of score, but the score that's in there is unbelievable remarkable But the scores amazing, but it is right. It's pre bad of a man very John Morris sound design not his movies obviously are Nominations movies are obviously it's like the Wes Anderson production design thing you're like right How does every Lynch movie not just win sound design right? You're like this guy twice got Director nominations for films that got no other nominations in any other category

One of the weirdest things about his only three movies to get acting nominations his only three performances are hurt in this Diane Ladd and wild at heart amazing not and What's the other one I'm forgetting Farnsworth and Farnsworth those are the only three right? Yep, which is also a weird three Yeah, they didn't nominate a grace to briskey I'm forgetting Farnsworth and Farnsworth those are the only three right yep of course is also a weird three yeah Didn't nominate a grace to briskey I don't know I don't know what the joke is but like his room Fathoms are getting his room much like your room here and Griffin's growing toy collection like the amount of dignity that we see on that Shelf both Griffin's and Merrick's all dignity what we're looking at here

It's just a wall it shows like that that as time goes, his treasures, whether they're the ones you see him be given, like the initial photo that he says he'll put in a place of honor next to his mother, which is again just a heartbreaking line. The phrase place of honor as he starts to cry. Everything he gets are the society people who become the question of are you just putting him on display for a different class of people. What I think what this movie is asking is is there any way society could not exploit this man? Even the noblest of intentions, is there something exploitative about it?

But like the finery he acquires in his clothing and his dressing kit, but again like the Lynch Touch is the very like, now you would call that like Americana kitch of like the little boy on the wall praying and the little boy on the wall sleeping, which is obviously foreshadowing in this movie. But if you saw a little, you know, sort of like Quaker Mills looking little boy on the wall in blue velvet, it wouldn't be out of place. There are speakeasy craft cocktail bars that are styled exactly like Merrick's room in this movie. And I got to go there with my costume on.

Really let people know what's up. But like, that, you know, now you... Is the costume the bag or like an elephant man face? Why, I explained the whole costume. Yeah, what are you doing? Where were you? I think you were playing with your slinky. I wish I was playing with my slinky. No, it's a bag, the cab, a clerk.

No, no, I just triple check. He was playing with his slinky. Did you see the far off look in his eyes he said that he really did stare with the stupid headphone I wish I was on the beach It was more like to me just imagining being in the same seat at his desk To me, he's just imagining being in the same seat at his desk Aruba, Bahama, come on pretty mama Do you remember on Seinfeld where George is bringing the thing to Jerry and then the guy's like You want to join us for some frisbee golf?

And then over one shoulder is the frisbee and over the other shoulder is Jerry going what's the deal with airplane peanuts? David over one shoulder is the slinky and over the other shoulder is Griffin going I'm sorry But do you know about the way that this franchise was structured when it went straight to video and David's like Have to the Griffin circle gets very small and the slinky one just gets bigger and bigger Marie yes Griffin. I am sitting here at my desk with two cups of coffee in front of me. You can attest I can this is very accurate And why is this the case? Because I get so stressed out by the decision-making process. I Don't like it analysis paralysis

Especially with coffee. Yeah, I hear people talk about coffee in these expert terms And I wish I had that knowledge base But I don't and sometimes I go out for coffee but I cannot start my day without making coffee at home first. And I'm so overwhelmed by the landscape that I just settle for some bargain bin basic... Pod shit, right? Some pod coffees. Well, that's what I used to do until I found out about trade.

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as Treves says, when someone says this, it's exploitation, he goes, he's happier than he's ever been. Every day of his life, he's more joyful and he's more of a human being than he ever would have been otherwise. But there is a tragedy in that, that's probably true. And Treves doesn't know that he's also being exploited.

He doesn't know that part. But the idea is like, yes. And yet that's probably true. And Trieff doesn't know that he's also being exploited. He doesn't know that part. But like, the idea is like, yes. And yet that still is true. His best life possibly is just to be this genteel museum piece that the Queen of England is sort of like, I've heard you've been nice to this man. But that's also why he doesn't report the broiler man, because he's just like, my life is always

going to be 30% shit. He's learned passivity because he's been treated so horribly. Even when they pass him around during their invasion, he goes limp, which is like literally what he does. And in the other point, he doesn't have the agency to not be beaten. I am a human being moment so profound. The cathedral is real, like he really built it.

They show it in the dock that's on the desk. It's really beautiful. It's also right here in my Blu-ray pack. It's a pop-up. I do love the scene with Princess... You are like my daughter right now. Where you're like, did you see this? I did just show it to you.

Dada. Did you see this dada? Oh boy. Sorry, what were you saying, Alex? The scene where Princess Alexandria comes in and sort of reads the letter and Gilgud gets the vote, you know, and they get to say like... Oh, that owl-looking motherfucker. And they say like, this is your room.

His name is literally like Mr. like, wide neck or something. I need to look it up. When he gets to go in and say like, these are your rooms permanently, this is your home, and he says, my home, like... Every moment like that is just maximum impact with minimal fuss. Which is not really the Lynch way. It's always maximum impact with minimal fuss. Which is not really the Lynch way. It's always maximum impact with maximum fuss. There's a lot of business in a lot of his movies.

Delicate is the word I keep coming back to, but there is such a tremendous amount of restraint in this movie that in other films I find can border on an over-preciousness. Broad neck. The bad guy in that scene, the guy who's like, I don't think there should be an elephant man is called broad neck, which is just a hilarious name.

How many looks does it take to get to the center of a twixie pop? I say. I'm gonna press my luck. I kind of look like that guy from No Whammies. Oh sure. I also just like that's a scene in a worst version of this movie, right? Every Tony, like, Sony Pictures classics release about like, did you know back in Victorian

times there was a person who was different? And like, there's like the person who's like, well, I'm a nice English man who thinks that it's fine that you're here. And then there's the other guy's like, well, I'm a businessman who doesn't like it and I think you should go away and then they have an argument and then the Queen So you're describing like the fate of an orphanage in a kids movie from the 60s But like there's so many movies like this, which is like Tom Felton is just like yes, I disagree with you bad And then they're like, all right, we'll take the vote one more thing Right the princess comes.

The queen is like, yes, there should be an elephant man. You know, like that's the bad version of this movie. But it's not even that I'd say this film is naturalistic, but like scenes like that play out in a way where you're like, this feels like what that would actually feel like in that room. It's restraint, like Alex said, even though, right, like usually the emotions are at the surface with Lynch,

and often in this film they are. Like a scene like that is not hammered in your face. Despite the fact that he is a very extreme filmmaker. Yeah. With extreme tendencies and aesthetics. A lot of skateboarding and Mountain Dew. Yeah. Thrashing music, a lot of Doritos dust on his fingers. The X Games.

Sneakers that light up. You know, the sneakers that light up, right? Oh. Sneakers that light up. You know, the sneakers that light up, right? Oh, the sneakers that light up? Yeah, yeah. Beyblades. I'm not just imagining David Lynch on a Razor scooter. The like...

What's up, bitches? I mean, anything you can do with him is funny. That is true. And that's the thing, he knows about himself. He knows it. You say like the other, the bad versions of something like this, there's Freaks, which is the masterpiece. A masterpiece, yeah.

And then like to me, every bad version is like any Del Toro getting within a hundred yards of something like this is like the version I don't want of something like this. I like Del Toro, but I would not trust him to make this movie in any circumstances. And that is, most things he's attached to, I think like, you know, I wouldn't trust him with this movie under any circumstances. But like, look, this is a reductive, two reductive comparison points, right? But the whole time I kept watching this, I just kept thinking about, because it also come out in a different episode we recorded recently, David, but the whole time I was

watching this, I kept thinking, God, I hate Bug Donovich's mask so much. I want to mention that at the end of this movie. Yeah. I don't like the film at all. We talk about that on a coming episode. Right. And even like Wonder, which I don't think is like a terrible movie, but it's just like...

Yeah. I mean, it'd be funny if you bodied Wonder right now. Like a movie that really hurt nobody's feelings, but it's not very good. You're right. But both of those are films that really want to make the audience feel good about themselves for watching the film. My problem with Wonder is that I just was waiting for a White Bird story to be told and it just hasn't happened yet.

That movie was shot... Before Elephant Man. 15 years ago. Yes. That movie was shot... Are you familiar with a White Bird, A Wonder Story? That's what it's called. No, nor do I care to be.

Is the spin-off of the movie Wonder? Spin-off prequel. Yes, of course, in which Jacob Tremblay is a boy with facial deformities. Yeah, I remember. Maybe he has a helmet on the poster or something. He's wearing a little astronaut helmet. The movie, I believe, is literally someone sits down, Jacob Tremblay's character, and is like,

hey, have you ever heard this other story about like a relative of yours? And then it's just a completely different thing. David, you are wrong. Am I wrong? It is so much more insane. The slinky side over David's head is getting bigger and Griffin's side is getting smaller. There is a character in Wonder who bullies. Oh, right. It's the bully. It's not Jacob Tremblay.

Right. And learns to be a little bit less of an asshole. Right. And in this movie, a sequel spin-off, It's not Jacob Tremblay, right? And learns to be a little bit less of an asshole. Right. And in this movie, a sequel spin-off, the bully from Wonder goes to visit his grandmother, played by Helen Mirren. And it's like, yeah, honk-joo, boring grandma. And she goes, do you know that I was in the Holocaust?

Right. And then the movie is the story of her surviving the Holocaust. Okay, I like that. It is directed by Mark Forster. Okay. It finished filming. I know him, filming. I know him. Yeah Oh a full calendar year before a man called Otto

Began filming right a movie that is now two years old coming out in October, baby. Yes Oh, it hasn't come out yet No, white bird of wonder story played at international film festivals two years ago and still has not been released And I think has gotten fully released in other countries. It has. Gamer Dator, by the way, calls Elephant Man an unlikely perfect fusion of talents. Well, I agree. Yeah, heart agree. Alright, so where do we leave off?

But it's not on his top ten. Where do we leave off since we just cut most of that chunk out? People need to know about White Bird of Wonder story. I don't know if they do. I feel like there was some episode recently where like Griffin started getting ramped up and then there's like, and then it's like technical difficulties and then the audio just like all due respect to the editing. At some point it's just like cuts back in and I was like, well, something got cut out.

It's like, it was just like an insert of like Griffin and there's like a cuckoo coming out of his head, like whatever. And it's like, please stand by. There was one where I was like, here comes, Oh, this is Griffin's getting hot And then it's just like so anyway back in the plot so anyway back in the plot of the elephant man He is kidnapped by Freddie Jones right re kidnapped by after he's humiliated really, and He is put back on show, but he is like weak and dying at this point out of favor. Right.

Morals were turning on him. Historically, that was already what happened to him pre-hospital, was that he had no longer been able to make a living because this kind of spectacle was already falling out of favor at the time. So originally what happened in the real story is that then they went to the continent. And it was there that he was what we next see in the movie, sort of abandoned. And then they found Treves' business card, calling card. And then that was how he ended up, ultimately with Treves. So the movie...

He came back to him. It's just that narrative from like the continent and his ultimate bottoming out. Right. And I feel like the I am not an animal scene. Like, you know, so obviously, right, he's in the circus, we talk about he's freed by a fellow in the circus. In reality it was Belgium. Here it kind of seems like it is Belgium or France or something, but then the ferry I think is the same ferry he took from Belgium across the channel. It's an easy trip.

I mean, not to jump all the way ahead to the end. No, we're near the end. It is like 15 minutes left. But I think the collapse in the station is invented, right? That's the film, obviously, creating this kind of final dramatic major... If he needs to stand up for himself for once. It's almost a thrilling sequence. I mean, it is a thrilling sequence, like I said.

It's incredibly involving. I can imagine seeing this film not knowing that that's going to happen. But also being just insanely anxious that he will die or truly be tortured or something horrible is about to happen. But for the performance, like... Arrested. Even just like body language again, now we're back to maybe just a hand and an eye.

Like, he's been freed from his shackles of the coverings for who knows how long, months, at least months, maybe a year in the movie at this point. And now to see him fully concealed again is very sad for him because we've seen him in his finery and in his three-piece suit with his dressing kit and now he's back in the I need to travel around without being seen look and even though you're getting nothing, your heart is breaking because of the performance of the body language within the cloak. The sense of resignation knocks the kid over in the train station. Like, it just feels like there's no, you know, control anymore.

Except that the last time we saw him dressed like this, we didn't know anything about his mental capacity. Right. And we thought perhaps he was an imbeciles, as Treve says. And now you're seeing him back like this and you know his intelligence and his sensitivity and you're still seeing him now having been in the cage. He's sick. He's stripped of his identity and his humanity once again. So it's exactly the same as it was an hour and a half earlier, but now you know so much

more about him and it's that much more upsetting. It's also fascinating to think about in the world of this movie, this guy becoming a sort of important cultural figure, but most people never would have seen him. Well, they say he's in the papers all the time. I guess his photograph is starting to get... But nonetheless, I don't know what his photograph would have been. That's the thing.

It's like this... The idea of this guy looms very large. He was photographed. Yeah, what do you mean? I know he was. I was saying, I don't know if his photograph was in the paper. Is his photograph being published in the paper all the time? Maybe not all the time. Very large. He was photographed. Yeah, what do you mean? Published in the paper all the time, maybe not all the time

Paper that day you don't fucking Google it later papers in the Victorian age have run a photograph I don't very often I feel like when you see old papers, it's often a drawing Yeah I'm saying if you're on this fucking fairy with him and you see this guy With this giant sack on his head and this oversized hat and all this sort of stuff. Are you going like, that might be him. That might be him and I don't know what he looks like. I think that scene is in another country. Well whatever.

The thing I love... The I am not an animal scene is at Liverpool Street Station. Oh, that's when he's returned. He is back. Yeah. Oh, because there's that heartbreaking shot of him sitting alone on the boat rocking in the rain, which also feels like it could be like a miniature or a match shot, but he's just brought so low and that's such an incredible moment.

I mean, that's like Dracula passing on the ship in the silent cinema. That shot is so great. The thing I love in movies, a thing I love in movies... Is when there's an elephant man. When there's the magic. When the screen... When most movies fail on that level. The audience.

Yeah. No, I love so many of the things that are like the fucking knockouts in movies. Part of what's impressive is you're like, I can't believe they got that, right? Some feeling of like some bravura moment of performance, some high level technical execution, things that feel so complex to actually execute. Right. That you're just stunned that there actually is this like a successful capture of a thing. Right.

I love the flip side of that, which is like, you get to the point in this movie where you realize, oh my God, he's going to lie down. Yes, right, like he's gonna make this conscious choice. And it is an emotional knockout, and it is done without dialogue. But he's done with him peeling down his sheets and gently pressing them with the back of his hand. And you cut to the pictures on the wall

which you've seen, you've heard him verbalize, I wish I could lie down like that. Don't you just kind of pan to them? Possibly. Possibly. But it's not only that he's making his, you know, he takes off eight pillows. He's doing this so slowly because after his scene at the theater. Right, which we have to acknowledge.

Which is just, you know, it is, okay, there's a little bit of factual flubbery here perhaps, but he did perish from, they found him laying down. Yeah, sure. So whether he did it intentionally... Whether he collapsed and that was what... They found him laying down apparently sideways across his bed. So there's thoughts that maybe he fell or... But you've set up this thing... It's much less elegant than it is in the movie but...

With the Freddie Jones character that like he sleeps sitting up, if he lies down he'll die. Like this whole thing and then this moment that can be completely Non-verbal unspoken it is not like hurt is like doing this through tears It is not like on its face a complex performance moment He does not like swell the score right and you just get the sense as you said as as he's laying out the covers of like Holy shit. This is what's about to happen And he does it and it's a knockout and it's so simple. But the movie has developed a language where that has incredible meaning. You see this in movies, you know, done very well.

You know, sometimes a character who's accepting their fate and they're, you know, walking out into the cold with no protection or, you know, something where a character is saying, like, I'm turning off my life support because my journey is over. Well, it's in the great Detective Dormer canon of Let Me Sleep cinema. Okay. True. Do you know I finally rewatched the I watched the original in Tommi.

This is great. Why? I own the disc for some reason and I'm trying to watch every disc I have that I've never seen. Scar's Guard is really good in it and there is a scene with a pile of garbage. Like that scene is in both films. Scandinavian garbage. Correct. But there is not a let me sleep one.

Okay. Any gum? Nothing I remember. The scene at the theater where he's the guest, kind of the last scene we haven't talked about. Again, like how... The scene that moves me the most. Well, it's very moving, but also like the...

Presenium, is that the right word? Yeah, sure. That space for Lynch, like, that is a holy space from the Lady and the Radiators performance up through Club Silencio. This scene is so... You could do a montage of just Lynch's, like, the two-dimensional platform of the theater as a space of transcendent emotional catharsis, artificial or otherwise. And this is more literal than those scenes by far. Those other scenes are incredibly metaphorical or dreamlike. But this is very literal, but it is therefore, I think, even more impactful because it's a space he's clearly always coming back to in his work.

And I feel like perhaps to no greater effect here, because here it's about a character's journey rather than about the audience's confusion. Yes, right. Another perfect line, she says, a man who loves the theater and yet has never been to the theater. Like, it's like that he's had this experience and it's so perfect for him. It almost feels distressing to think about him then suffering again in the future.

Right. He tries to go back and won't work out in this. Like that he, there's this like exquisite experience for him. And yet he says, can we go back? I'd love to go again. Yeah, he does. Which is again, very heartbreaking. And it's, I saw either, I forget if this was in the doc or if I read it on Merrick's Wikipedia,

but in the final, you know, months of his life, he did go to a Christmas pantomime as a guest of this actress. Right. And apparently for the last several, you know, he talked about it constantly and would repeat the entire story of the show back to all of his doctors and friends as though it was like a real thing. Like he would recount the story of it every day. And it had made this huge impression on him. Very interesting.

That's almost sadder than what it is in... Like that's the rare instance where the movie almost downplays. You don't have him recounting what he saw over and over again. Yeah, right. That he just... He has again. Yeah, right. That he just, it's... He has a sense of closure immediately. Yeah. Ben, do you like this movie?

It's my first time seeing it. Oh, interesting. You probably had some awareness just like through the ether, right? Yep, for sure. Like pop culture references. See, this makes sense that you've seen Twin Peaks and Grim... You know, but that's a perfect divide. Yes.

That you've never seen this, but you're the Twin Peaks guy in the... Yeah, in the house first. I'm the Twin Peaks guy. David, not everything but you're the Twin Peaks guy in the household. I'm the Twin Peaks guy. David, not everything. Ben's the Twin Peaks guy. Not everything's about you. I'm the Twin Peaks guy. Wait, did you see that I have this?

It feels like a movie that Ben might get emotional during. Yeah, I see this, David. Boy, Griffin is once again holding up the... Very good. Pop-up. Yeah. That's definitely the Deadpool DVD art of this episode. Yup.

Ben, I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I was very moved by this movie. It made me tear up. Yeah. I just... I felt a deep sense of empathy for the character. And I relate to characters like this very often. And I relate to characters like this very often. The downtrodden, the ones that people really look down upon. And I just thought it was outstanding. Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

It's a tough movie to find a ton of fault. Yeah, and yet for most people, just by virtue of what they love about Lynch, it would not be top tier for them. Because it is great. I don't think anyone could make an argument that it's not But I would say that is how I feel about people will likely be low on my list Which is yeah, I think it is my number one. We'll see how a couple of these other

Most Griffin Lynch. I said this to you and you were like that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. Yeah the business The shots of in the construction of the model, the destruction of it, that it gets reassembled, that he finishes it, that he signs it then at the end. That to me is like a really key image that's very important throughout the movie. I don't know if you saw this, but it's right here on my desk. The film was nominated for best picture. What? No, what's that?

No, you want to talk about the packaging? No, like you see this in movies all the but like, Ben's, About the packaging? No, like you see this in movies all the time, someone is building something and you know it's going to get smashed. Yes. You know something. 100%.

The thing you don't expect is that it will be reconstructed. Yeah. And that the film will not belabor the reconstruction. It's real like Mr. Wilson kind of stuff, where it's like, ah, I'm finally gonna finish painting my little masterpiece. Oh, here comes Dennis the Mask on his skateboard.

What might he want? But it's just full of these, yeah, it's a very heartbreaking representation. And the fact that it was real, and that no one in this room has a little version of it. Wait a second. Is all the better. Yeah, it's pretty powerful stuff.

Do you, I mean, to me, I also just love, like, as we mentioned, The Fly, like Phantom of the Opera is my favorite musical. Like, Frankenstein, I love, like Phantom of the Opera is my favorite musical. Like, Frankenstein I love. I just love the sad monsters. And this is as good as it gets. No, as good as it gets is a different movie. That was directed by James Elbrus.

No, no, this is as good as it gets. Griffin, Yes or No? That's about a monster who can't stop washing his hands. And I want you to look this up. Yes or No? Your gut instinct. McFarland Toys Elephant Man? Did it happen? I know it didn't happen. That's not a gut instinct thing.

I thought I could get you. I wonder if it would have been seen as insensitive to include him in movie maniacs. He did make a fly figure. I know. The film was a success at the box office, grossing about $26 million domestically at like a $5 million budget. That's pretty good. Eight Academy Award nominations. It got rave reviews, it got Oscar nominations, but as you say, no wins?

None, zero. Because they don't even do like a special makeup award, because sometimes they would do that of like, we don't have the category yet, but we'll recognize it. Raging Bull tests and ordinary people basically won everything, those three movies. Ordinary people obviously wins best picture, best director, best supporting actor.

Raging Bull is sort of... Supporting actor that could have easily gone... I mean, I guess who would be... Wait, you said... Hopkins, I would call it supporting. But they didn't nominate him. They didn't nominate him. Hurt was the one.

Hurt is lead though, right? Hurt was nominated for lead. And how did he not win? Oh wait, it was up against... Because Hopkins could have been supporting even though he's in as much of the movie as... Hopkins got very little recognition from critics even. It's the kind of thing that at the time people wouldn't have... It's an undersung performance.

Yeah. It'd be like, oh, there's a British actor yelling and screaming in a top hat in this black and white period. Right. We see a lot of that. But Raging Bull and Ordinary People were the critics picks of that year. Melvin and Howard, I think, maybe won... Oh, it wins original screenplay. It's just very strange. But it also won the Newvin and Howard I think maybe won oh wins original screenplay it's just very strange like the New York critics I think you know like but like you don't even see elephant man winning critics awards I think because it has this prestige way too Tony right so it's like

get your nods how is this not the critics favorite and you're like oh because another artsy black and white that's true biopic by an American master came out the same year. But at that time, putting him neck and neck with Raging Bull, it's a very strange journey for a guy who made a midnight movie three years earlier. In the other, the Hoverman Rosenbaum midnight movies book of John Waters and Hodorowski.

None of those guys were at the Oscars. No, like a couple years later. With their next movie. That just wasn't the path for them. Look at like who Lynch is up against in the best picture field. He's up against Robert Redford, one of America's favorite movie stars. Scorsese. He's up against Scorsese who's like 10 years in on careers, already won a Palme d'Or, has had some like...

Polanski. This is his first major comeback Polanski on the run and then who's the fifth? The 1980 Oscars I just was like a coal miners daughter, which is a great movie Yeah, but it's obviously more of a you know seen as an actor's film or whatever my collected movie I love it is wild for Lynch to already be in that group on his second film considering what the first movie was Yeah, and it was but it wasn't like that's weird this like gonzo artist made this Oscar player to already be in that group on his second film, considering what the first movie was. Yeah. And it was, but it wasn't like, that's weird. This like gonzo artist made this Oscar player.

It's more just like, eh. But it's an amazing actor gear, cause it's Nero, it's Deval and the Great Santini, which could win in a lot of years. It's Hurt, it's Jack Lemmon in Tribute, which is one of the lesser known tribute, lesser known Lemmons, but you know, it's Lemmon. And then Peter O'Toole in The Stuntman, which is like an amazing performance. is one of the lesser known tribute, lesser known lemons, but you know, it's lemon.

And then Peter O'Toole and the Stuntman, which is like an amazing performance. And it's another one of those where you're like, they couldn't even give him the makeup Oscar by now. And it's like, no, fucking De Niro, you know? So he lost too. I don't, you know, there's no way Hurt wins. And Hurt probably would have been penalized for the like, well, the makeup does this work for him, right?

You know? I'm almost impressed they gave him the nomination, as they should have, but you could see them very easily writing it off. I think he was an established enough actor as well, that he'd been in Midnight Express, he'd been in Alien, like he'd been in movies recently. So it's not like it's like, oh, it's some unknown they found. And I think it's undeniable.

He won the BAFTA. Yes, and it won the BAFTA for best film. Yeah, but what, Raging Bull wins cinematography and editing? It's a good looking movie. Good, good, good, well cut movie. And then like, test one costume and production design, and ordinary people adapted screenplay, and yeah. So it goes.

So it goes. Do you want me to hide the back setters again? No, let's skip it. One thing to put a pin in. Unfinished business prior to box office games. I would like to be exonerated for Griffin's slanderous lies about when I broke the toilet. Okay, here we go.

I'm gonna go pee while this happens. David? I have to pee so bad. David is innocent in this scenario. David did not slander. Well, let's listen to this. I can reveal now that during the Fincher series, it was I who quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes, broke the toilet.

What I did was that I kicked'm doing air quotes broke the toilet. Okay, what I did Was that I kicked the toilet seat off of the toilet With my foot you kicked it up. So you didn't have to use your hands I don't I do not be touching toilets with my hands. You do not be touching toilets with your I do not I mean in my own house Yes, but sure as I understand it this toilet seat is used for one purpose and one purpose only, which is fighting with Griffin for dear life. Day in and day out. I wouldn't say the only purpose, but it's primary function. One time when I said, how's the studio going?

Ben said, you know, David always has to run home to the kid and then Griffin stays and takes some shit. It's not wrong. So when I went to relieve myself, I drink a lot of water, ducked out to urinate in the toilet, kicked it up with the toe of my shoe, and it fell off. And I yelled as Griffin did correctly say, oops. But in Griffin's telling of this, as I recall, Griffin says, yeah, our guest went into the bathroom,

10 minutes later we hear, uh-oh, and then the toilet was broken. It was actually probably closer to seven seconds. The part you don't like is the implication that perhaps a big shit was taken in between. You're making it sound like this. You're making me into Harry and Dumb and Dumber in there. I'm in there with my feet in the air, screaming, and the porcelain shatters. Correction accepted. Let it pass into law.

You guys had like a flimsy like public toilet, kind of like you horseshoe shaped seat. Hey, hey, hey, don't say our... No, now it's better because... Yeah, I bought a good seat. So then I kicked it up with my foot. You had already had it where only one of the bolts was connected to the bowl.

Okay. And I just kicked it off and then you replaced it with a better one. And the story made it seem a lot more foul than it was. Yeah, for sure. It was an exaggeration. Griffin's a storyteller, a comedic storyteller. As a comedic story, it's good.

I just feel like the legend of it risks getting out of hand. And you're setting the record straight. Yeah. So if anyone listened this far, thank you. Yeah, but like, you know, I mean, I mean, I call it for green because it was like Thunder Pants was in there, if you ask me. A tough 80s box office.

Yeah, it's a tough one. But shout out to Griffin for replacing the toilet himself. Good job, Griffin. And also shout out Griffin for, in my opinion, crafting a fairly solid comedic tale. Thank you. It was, but you know, behind every comedic tale there's a little bit of truth, and you want to get ahead of the legend and the truth. Well, let's offer the disclaimer at the end of this episode, like the end of elephant man saying that this story bears no resemblance Yes, you Number one of the bike this film comes out in October of 1980. Okay

And you know, you've got you've got some of the big sort of which layers Talked it came out October 3rd. So it's in the sauce lot basically It's talked it came out October 3rd. So it's in the sauce lot basically Excited for saw XI saw XI not this year opening push It's opening in venom weekend. That's true. It's not big venom weekend We talked about I mean we'll talk about this now since this will be relevant when this episode comes out How how annoying it is the bad boys ride or die didn't come out Big Willie weekend. It's a nightmare. We can't even get into it now, but Incense Me.

Yeah. Well, I liked it because it did well. It's a good movie. These guys actually had way more, I mean, I had a lot of fun, but I think these guys liked it more than I did. If I had popcorn, it would have been an extra half a star, but it's what we want. Ben, can we spoil one thing for you? Sure.

Guess what the location is of the final set piece, set piece at the end of the film. The final sort of showdown with all the villains. Um... A cemetery? Gatorland. An abandoned alligator amusement park. That is said to still be... At least inspired by the real world.

That is said to still be occupied by a humongous albino occupant. Yeah, they're like, look, of course we need to go to Gatorland for our final shoot at all so I should mention there is a 15 foot long albino alligator on the loose. I'm sure that won't come up again. And we're not talking about like Kevin Spacey directed indie films of the 90s. No, there's a 15 foot long DVD copy of Albino Alligator. Box office. Number one at the box office in this weekend, Elephant Man, I think, is opening limited,

it's not here, is a comedy, a spy film. It's not a film I've seen, but it's a, I would say a fairly well-known British director directing a muggy American star as like a spy. Like, it's a comedy. It's a comedy. It was nominated for best actor, motion picture, musical or comedy. So, there you go. Is it Dudley Moore? No. British mug British muggy American. No, no, muggy American, yes. A sitcom star? A British director. Is this a sitcom star?

I know, he's a big movie star. Like, Oscar-winning movie star. A big muggy American movie star. These Andy's box office games are so hard. They can be a bit odd. It's not Dreyfus? No. Muggy.

No, if it was Dreyfus, I would say truth-telling. Right. And I would say universally beloved. It And I said David is wearing a dress and dancing with a cane right now He came back from the bathroom with his dress He is four stage hands trying to help him get the dress the dress this thing is so fucking funny to me It's just unbelievable It's just funny that the guy who spent 30 years being well known to be a huge asshole and he's like, I got one more act in me though.

You know what I mean? Like I don't want to just be remembered as like a regular pain in the ass. This is his Mr. Hollens opus. This is the project he's been working on his whole life. I want to lure people in with the safety of a Jaws screen. Oh, I'm talking about Jaws. You heard of Jaws? And it's like, ha ha, lock the doors.

You know what the problem is with trans kids? It's like, ha ha, lock the doors. You know what the problem is with trans kids. What's happening? He's like, poor people are just like, yeah, I'll buy a ticket to my local rep cinema. Tell me the shark didn't work. Oh, it was such a pain in the ass. We're on the water. And he's like, uh, uh, pronoun. Then he's like dancing. The funny thing is also that then in the news story It's like there's video of the event and you're like who's gonna be bad you watch the video Everything is fine. Yeah, like no one is booing. No one's yelling. It's just like

Yeah, okay wait muggy American star had won an Oscar already at this point Huge comedy star. Right, the kind of guy who maybe a movie ends with his face going. David, how long ago was his Oscar? In 1980, how long in the past was that? 14 years prior. 60s Oscar.

So he's a 60s, it's not a lemon, it's not a math. You're close, it is. It is a math out. It's a math out spike. Balsam, did you cough? I was doing Pelham. Lemon it's on a map close It's a math house Balsam did you cough I was doing film. What is this? I it's not I'm it's a movie I know like I think through like box office shit that Ronald Neame Hopscotch, oh, that's what that is. I know that title. I never knew what that movie was Which has like a criterion release like I think it's probably...

It's the only reason I have one of those things where I was like, what is this movie? I've never heard of it. It's like one of the first hundred Criterion discs in Europe, like, hmm, guess I need to see this because I don't know what it is. But you've still not for watched it. No, I saw it at the... Oh, really? Okay. You know, in my younger years.

The Criterion cover is great, it's a beautiful caricature of math out. Love those. That guy was really tough to do a caricature of those. You know any features you could really emphasize Love math out. We were so lucky that we got to grow up during like the fourth decade of his marquee movie stardom Yeah, mega star man. I agree. I agree Number two mr. Wilson. Yeah, I brought up just a few minutes ago number two at the box office Is a film will cover on the patreon one day and then it's a sequel in a hot franchise Hot to you and I you and I love it. No, we've never seen it, but we're just like what's going on there Is it Oh God you devil Oh God book two, okay?

And the Lord said that there'd be another movie and lo there was another movie too. Okay. And the Lord said that there'd be another movie and lo there was another movie. That's the funniest thing about box office ga.me is that when it's an 80s weekend, the first clue I always take is tagline. Yeah, because like 75% of the time a tagline from the 80s is like, you know, oh God is back with another film. Yeah, there's just the taglines are absolutely incredible where it's like the other day it was like spies like us and it's like with Spies like these who needs enemies you remember seeing porkies, but what happened the next day taglines No, that was my big question. He's the next day when I saw porkies. I was like, I just wish I knew what happened the next day I'm with an everyone went to sleep Number three at the box office is a cult slasher film.

Okay, Alex. With a great name. Give me something about the theme. Is it like a character based? It's set on a location and that's the name of the movie. It's not Sleepaway Camp. No. It's the studio.

It was a 20th Century Fox release, although I think it was an indie film they bought. 20th Century Fox release, a slasher based on a location. It's based studio. It was a 20th Century Fox release, although I think it was an indie film they bought. 20th Century Fox released a slasher based on a location. It's based on a place. It's set in a location and that's the name of the movie. That's the title, it's the location. Yes. It's a good title.

Hmm. Director of it eventually made a Bond movie. Is it a Spottiswood film? Roger Spottiswood. Huh. Hmm. Huh. Hmm. It. Hmm.

It's a location. And it was released by the fine folks. Is it set in America? Or is it like an Australian thing? It's set in America. Set in Illinois, I believe. Spottiswood. Is it like, it's a chopping mall?

You're close. Fuck. It's not chopping mall. I feel like it's a film with a similar reputation to chopping mall. Sort of like, you know, Slasher can't be classic. Yeah. All right I'll give you the next clue. Okay. The prep, the pitch for this film was Halloween on a train. Is it Terror Train? Terror Train. Never seen that. With Ben Johnson and Jamie Lee Curtis. Yeah. And a guy in like a groucho mask. I scored big points on it in Cinematrix the other day.

Jamie Lee Curtis horror. I was like that's the one that no one's gonna guess. Right, that was your senior smart. Yes, I just guessed all Halloweens for that. Resurrection, H2O and 2. You're real proud of yourself. I don't know, it wasn't that good. Number 4 of the box office best picture winner of 1980. Ordinary people. That's right. A good movie. Yeah, good ass movie. Maybe I like a tremendous amount. Number 5 of the box office. It's from the director of the taking of film 1 2 3, but it's not that. Hmm. A good movie. Yeah, good-ass movie. Maybe I like a tremendous amount. Number five of the box office. It's from the director of the taking of film, one, two, three, but it's not that. It's a romantic comedy though. Porky's the next day.

It stars someone who would one day work with David Lynch and one other day be arrested. So it's a Robert Blake movie? Robert Blake's in this film. What is this movie called? It also starts Diane Cannon. There's no way you know what this movie is. I've never heard of it. It's called Coast to Coast.

Yeah, absolutely not. A romantic comedy starring Diane Cannon and Robert Blake. Oh, the sparks. I'm seeing here that it got one Golden Raspberry Award nomination for worst actor. Okay. But, but, it's a murderer. Don't know coast to coast. Other films in the top 10, Stardust Memories is opening this week.

One of my favorite Woody Allen movies. A great movie. Yes, great film. For better or worse. No, for sure. An incredible film. Very interesting movie. Divine Madness, which is a concert film of.

Bette Midler. The Divine Miss M. You've got Somewhere in Time, which is a Christopher Reeve movie. Yeah, that's a Nicholas Meyer movie. Yeah, I've never seen. People love that film. Wait, is that the Jack the Ripper one

or is that time after time? That's time after time. It's Genotes Vark. Somewhere in Time is sort of the original time traveling, time traveler's wife kind of romance. It's like he sees a photo and goes back in time. Correct. People adore that film. Wow. I've never, I've seen, I know the poster.

Yeah. Michael McDowell? No. That's the one I'm thinking of. You've got Christopher Plummer though. Okay. That's something. Nice work if you can get it. There is also a film called In God We Trust, but the S is a dollar sign.

Is that the Marty Feldman one? Correct. The Marty Feldman directed and starring with Peter Boyle and Andy Kaufman. The televangelist, yeah. And then some piece of shit I've never heard of called The Empire Strikes Back is number 10 of the box office. Well, yes. Ben, I don't know if you know this and we'll talk about it next week, but off of this film, Elephant Man, where does David Lynch go next in his career? What's the obvious next path for him? George Lucas rings him up and says, I obviously want you to direct Return of the Jedi. Do you know this? It makes sense. I think I may have heard this choice legend come up way, way back in the Star Wars days.

And that's how you end up with him doing Dune instead, but we'll talk about that. It's interesting to think about Elephant Man and Empire Strikes Back existing in theaters together at the same time and Lucas being like, let's put these two together. It makes sense because that's the same pitch that happens with Dune obviously and Dune is the thing that attracts him more because it's like, well, I'm not doing someone else's work here. But that's the other thing like well I'm not doing someone else's work here. I guess you know That's the other thing like to bring it back to the beginning of the movie like Hollywood people have always respected him

He has never been seen as like that guy just has to do his own thing. No, it's always he's always been Mainstream enough that somebody's like they want come work for us. Yeah, always. Yeah, like I'm maybe not anymore but like He had a show on ABC. He had studio offers to make big movies They're also always saying like you're in a ton of money to make the monkey short, right? Where they're just like we want to have a David Lynch project, right? He still is seen as like a big coup and And they don't give money to just anybody. No, they got tight ass wallets. He's very accepted by the mainstream in a way that doesn't quite make sense considering

how transgressive some of his work is. I feel like he is also the surreal transgressive artie filmmaker that everybody knows and thus lots of people like, yes, I've been made to watch a David Lynch film or two maybe by a friend or a Someone I dated or something and I didn't enjoy that like he also has weirdly the most mainstream cult figure if that makes sense Perfect sense. He's like Salvador Dali like yeah a surrealist artist who would go on the Tonight Show and Basically be the one person Like as you said, I'll watch one of these weirdo fucking movies

But he is a personality unto himself. He's funny. He's charismatic on television. He said he's a unique individual No one's like him. He got rid of the Woody Woodpecker dolls. He did. He has a funny voice. Private select coffee DL Where's my slinky Okay, this is over. Alex, Thank you for being here. Thanks big nine We went three hours enough enough No surprise put the fucking clock up for you to manage it. I know we're fine a triumph Yeah, I hope they're happy. I hope everyone enjoyed that entire riff about that's true

Cut is reporting for duty. Yes. Yes. We didn't even get into my thing that I told Griffin I needed to tee up someday, or at least for him, is the weird incongruity of the later films of the Beethoven franchise. Oh, David.

So keep that in mind for next time. That, I think, the argument for you coming on for a slightly less remembered film is... 40 minutes of Beethoven. Gives us a little space to maybe talk more Beethoven or whatever. Whereas the Elephant Man, it's like, we don't want to discount the majesty of this film and this man's experience and suffering. Not the majesty of his suffering, the profundity of it.

You get me. Griffin's opened the little diorama one more time, which means I honestly think it's not coming across as funny to listeners like the little stinker face he has while he's lifting up this totally ordinary little cut out on his stupid fucking disk. It's as funny as Deadpool on the cover of a DVD. I mean it's funnier than that because that's not funny. I'm so relieved that it's a Paramount picture and Deadpool can't slap his face on an elephant man disc yet. He can slap his face in the straight story though. That's true. Alex, uh...

Right here right now, by the time this episode comes out, we'll be... Streamable maybe? Rantable? Yeah, the Ghosts concert film that I co-directed that Griffin and Ben play a huge role in the promotional campaign of. And the expanded universe. Um, yeah, it'll be out. Pretty cool. We're days away from the theatrical release. This episode is dropping September 8th. So yes, I don't know

Next week from the time we're recording it. Oh, okay And then they're going to announce the streaming release immediately after okay great So people but your guys things already online has a go dig find it We'll have links to both stuff. Yeah, thanks. I got my own popcorn bucket We'll have links to both stuff, both things. I got my own popcorn bucket. You said you got two? I don't own it yet, but the movie has its own popcorn buckets. Are you going to start showing up to other theaters with your popcorn bucket and hand

it to them like, you know, fill that up my man? I might, I might. All right, good. To be clear, I don't have the bucket in my possession yet. You said it. It hasn't arrived yet, but soon. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

Thank you, Tim Marie Barty for helping to produce the show. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research, AJ McKeon for our editing, Lee Montgomery and The Great American Elle for our theme song, Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our artwork. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit including our patreon blank check special features Or we're going through that famous franchise Movies based on tabletop games. Yep. You're a winner. You're Victor. Hey also that's and doing Lynch shorts as we said Yeah, the the Lynch shorts episode is coming up soon. What are the other Lynch bonuses? We'll figure it out Ben Also, this has been a visual heavy.

Like we've referenced a lot of visuals on this episode. So make sure to follow blank check on Instagram at blank check pod. Yeah, we're going to be posting a ton of the photos and and and this packaging the Porky's club. Yes, all the things my Halloween costume. So if you want to be able to see these images, please check it out tune in next week for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice

Yeah, that's right. Don't say it again. I'm saying it one time two times David I said the juices I know but just be very Careful a great kind of animal is beetle David. I Hope it is good. I hope it's at least fun. I hope it's fun inside out to his tracking Just got bumped up to 90 I'm telling you I think it's making a hundred and four months from now either look smart or Wrong in a way. No one gives a shit about correct and will Smith's not in it, so I don't think it's gonna make any money He's our only star at July 4th we get at least yeah all right okay goodbye

thank you Alex thank you everybody and there it is and he's holding it up again no flaws thank you very very like golf clubs