Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Prince of Tides with Katey Rich

Episode Date: January 28, 2024

Can you hear the crawdads sing? Or is that just our Nick Nolte impression? Our favorite Carolinian Katey Rich joins us to chat about Streisand’s 1991 adaptation of Pat Conroy’s bugnuts novel, a story that includes some serious ethical breaches made by alluring therapist Susan Lowenstein. Listen along as Katey shares some tidbits from the book that did NOT make the screen adaptation (a tiger, for example), Griffin relates to Jason Gould’s attempts to be sporty, and David offers his hot take that this is a better 90s therapy movie than Good Will Hunting.   Read Katey’s writing Listen to Little Gold Men This episode is sponsored by: Miracle Made (trymiracle.com/check CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check At the end of every day I drive through the city of Charleston and I cross the bridge that takes me home. I feel the words building inside me. I can't stop them or tell you why I say them. But as I reach the top of the bridge, these words come to me in a whisper.

I say these words as a prayer, as regret, as praise. I say, podcast. Podcast. It's hard to layer the Southern onto it. You know, no one can do it but him. Because he's one in a million. One in a billion. The exact same problem

I had on Lorenzo's oil is... I thought it was his normal speaking voice. I'm not sure what the issue is there. I think I can do it. Have you seen Lorenzo's Oil? No, I have not. Should I have? I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this.

I didn't go that far. I think so. I mean, it's a... I would say it is a genuinely great movie. Yeah. I actually really like Lorenzo's Oil. But also, in the annals of Nolte voices, it's number one in craziness.

This is the thing. Like, I can do a Hulk style warrior style late stage right I was trying to do it for Forky when we watched this movie she was like tell her where this you know because I was giving her the whole spiel of like

this was you know he's people's sexiest man a lot you know this is his like a masculine and she's like really like you know and I'm like and she's like really like you know and i'm like and she's like i know him who is he and i'm like well you've like seen right yeah you've seen his mugshot probably yeah yeah she'd seen the but you know i was it's hard and hulk is like two hours of that mugshot in motion that's why he looked like but this is the thing it's like it's easier to do older nolte than younger nolte right i was as I was trying to warm up, I was like, how do I remove 10, 15 years off of my Nolte impression?

And then when you try to lay on the Southern or the Italian, it completely falls apart. So in Lorenzo's world, he's playing an Italian man. He does have that vibe, doesn't he? Full Mario. Yes. And it doesn't... How do I save my daughter?

But I can't do it. I can't even begin to do it. Because it sounds like it's two separate audio tracks, each one coming out of one speaker. Can I say something? How could he possibly have both of those voices at the same time? I want to propose a concept. It's other Nick Norty. No, I'm not that.

I'm trying to find it. No, I think that's getting there. It's a little better. It's just, but you're still doing slightly older, right? This is the problem. Okay. We need a hall of fame for people

who we've covered on this show. Sure. And I think Nolte's first ballot because we have covered so many diverse and interesting performances from him. Okay.

That really represent what a great actor he is and what a versatile actor he is. That blank check meta Twitter account that every episode posts how many we need them to start cultivating who the candidates are all of this lorenzo's oil i'll do anything one of the hulk we are two versions of i'll do anything two versions

of i'll do anything hulk is there anything else that might be all of them. But that's what a crazy bunch of movies for us to just have covered. He's got plenty of other good performances. The Hall of Fame is for people who have not just been great, but have been great in movies you guys have covered. It has to be in our personal podcast canon. Right. Right? Like guys who keep popping up. Yes.

Like we'll do that thing where we're like, huh, weird, like we've only covered, you know, this actor once or twice, but we've covered this guy weirdly like six times. And Nolte's really becoming that for us. Well, it's just like those four performances. Who doesn't want to chip at that block of marble, right? That's fascinating. We love talking about him.

Barbara did. Barbara did. She chipped that block of marble. That's the whole point of the movie. We're going to talk about it. It is just so fascinating that this movie comes out in 1991, end of 91. Oh, yeah. Cape Fear comes out a month before this.

Also Southern. Also Southern. A whole different thing, I would argue. Yeah. Yeah, he's doing a different thing. He's pretty frustrated in that movie, though. He definitely is. Why?

What's frustrating him in that movie? I can't really figure out why. Yeah. A couple things. Things aren't going great. Kind of grinding his gears. But Cape Fear's November 1991, huge ass hit. Big hit.

Prince of Tides, December 1991, big ass hit. Yes. Very solid hit for a two hour, 20 minute therapy movie. One of the 20 highest grossing films of that year. Both two hits. Right. February 1992, he gets his first Oscar nomination. Correct.

March 1992, he's named People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive. And let's not forget, then December, the oil flows. He strikes oil. Wow. Lorenzo's oil. That's a 12-month span. 1992. That's later 1992.

But I'm just talking... Calendar year! No, but I'm saying's a 12-month span. That's later in 92. But I'm just talking... Calendar year! No, but I'm saying in this three-month period, and he is at this point 51 years old. Okay. He's 25 years into his leading man career. He's like 50 years old. He was born in 41.

Yeah, so he's 50 years old. He and Babs are like the same age, I think. He's the same age as my dad. Like, almost exactly. There you go. But he's like cresting at this moment I mean he is You know

It's funny because I do think So is this his Okay this is to borrow the rewatchables Sure Is this his apex mountain Is that what you're arguing Yes It's not 48 hours

Just because that movie was so seismic No because Eddie blows him off the screen Wait Wait No no no Eddie blows him off the screen. Wait, wait, wait, no, no, no. Eddie makes himself a star. Yes. Nick Nolte does not get blown off of screens. No, he does not. Okay.

You cannot blow Nick Nolte off the screen. And he is amazing in 48 hours. No, I agree with you. Yes, I have to draw the line. I agree with you. But then it's like his next few years, it's sort of like, what do we do with this guy? This is my point, though.

But like Rich Man, Poor Man is 76. So handsome in that. So there's 25 years between Rich Man, Poor Man, which is when he becomes like a leading man, right? Yeah. He's starring in movies by the end of the 70s. Rich Man, Poor Man is definitely like, okay, what do we do with this guy? Right. So there's 25 years between that and Prince of Tides.

What if it was a rich man and a poor man? I think this has to be his apex mountain. And then right after this, it's sort of like, congratulations, Nick Nolte, you're at the absolute A list of leading men. Yeah. And then he starts to make some weird ass choices.

Well, he tried to do anything. And he loved trouble. He promised he would do anything and he did. I'll do anything, James L. Brooks. It makes sense to take on a project by that man. Absolutely. He was bulletproof at that point. I think we both have the same thought,

which is what doesn't make sense is that Brooks wanted him for that role. But that's what I love about Nolte is directors keep thinking, like, there's no one quite like this guy. Which you can't argue with that. Exactly. Katie, do you like Nick Nolte?

I do like Nick Nolte. I did watch Katie, do you like Nick Nolte? I do like Nick Nolte. I did watch Cape Fear. Do you like Nick Nolte? Around the same time as watching this movie. Well, because you're also preparing for a Scorsese project. I'm watching some Scorseses, so I rewatched Cape Fear. I have a lot of Southern accent notes. I know we're going to take some time to get into that.

I'm a lawyer, Katie. But I think Nick Nolte is great in this bonkers movie. A bonkers movie. We have to get this out of the way. Prince of Tides is a bonkers movie. It's a little bonkers. I think his performance in it is sensational. I agree.

And we're going to talk about it. Like undeniable. He is selling crazy, crazy stuff that no human being should be doing or saying. And you're like, yeah, great. Like anytime this movie is swerving into you being like, I give up. I cannot keep track of this thing.

He kind of is pulling you back. He's grabbing you by the collar. You call someone a possum breath cocksucker in this movie is swerving into you being like, I give up. I cannot keep track of this thing. He kind of is pulling you back. He's grabbing you by the collar. You call someone a possum breath cocksucker in this movie? Yes. And you want to

make out with him? Yeah, well, of course he deserved it. I don't know why he's a possum breath, though. Because that's what Southerners say, obviously.

I know, but like, those European violinists always eating possums. Well, he was taking bites of possum between sucking cocks. What do you mean? I feel like it's

pretty self-explanatory. Possum breath cocksucker. Possum breath cocksucker. Possum breath cocksucker. I'm going to throw your fiddle off a balcony. Both of you, that was good. He does call it a fiddle like three or four times, right? He's mixing in that homie charm. I got your pricey fiddle here in my hands.

I'm going to play foosball with it. If somebody looked you in the eye and played Dixie while like smiling smugly at you, you'd throw that shit off the balcony too. You don't have to be from the South. And you would accuse them of being a possum breath cocksucker. But again, like... Well, look, we'll talk.

You're getting too riled up too early. I mean, is that in the book? Yes, that's all. Yeah, so I... The possum breath? Yeah, I reread the book for this too. So I got a lot. Yeah, I got a lot to get into.

But I was because I was just wondering if... Yeah, because that's such an insane... Oh, we toss and breath cocksucker in the book? No, no, the violin play. No, the violin stuff's definitely in it. It's an insane thing to do, but well, that's what he does. Yep. Listen, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. Getting over a head cold, as is David.

I'm more chesty for me. Barely heady. You know what? You're right. Mine's more chest as well. Mine's more chest. for me. Barely heady. You know what? You know what? You're right. Mine's more chest as well. Mine's more chest. Yeah. This is less like a sinal congestion thing,

which it usually is for me. Yeah. The seasons are changing. The tides of New York City are shifting. There are tides here. There are. Tom Wingo wouldn't believe you,

but they're here. He would. I don't think the weather ever shines. Too fruity for me. He likes New York. He loves New York. He falls in love with it.

Falls in love with Soho. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. modern day Nick Nolte voice? Well, I don't know what modern day Nick Nolte is. The Hulk is 20 years old. I'll tell you what modern day Nick Nolte sounds like. The Mandalorian?

Is that the last time I saw him? No, he's on Poker Face. Yeah, he's incredible on Poker Face. He's great in that episode of Poker Face. And he was definitely very easy to understand in that one.

Let me animate my puppet's Poker Face. Another normal guy from Nick Nolte. I just want to do my go motion in my garage. Oh, God.

Leon, like, sounding like the voice of an angel compared to him. Not a hint of sandpaper. It's a podcast about filmographies. And sometimes

about Nick Nolte. It's about... But primarily it's about directors who are... experienced massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they

want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby, this is a mini series on the films of Barbara Streisand. It is called Podcastle. Of course. I'm hearing it for the first time. I'm so happy. What else would it be called?

It could be called something like the Prince of Podcast or whatever but that's boring yeah uh but today we are talking about the prince of tides a bonkers movie big hit big second film as a director yes our third episode but her second film yes two of three yes a perfect little trilogy. Yep. Numero dos. Yeah. In the insane movie trilogy. Yes. You know, it's like, you know, Van Sant's like,

I have my death trilogy. Barbara's like, I have my insane movie trilogy. They're all crazy. Yeah. I'm going to throw out a thing in just a second. After I introduce our guest, the best,

one of the first guests ever. A history of blank check. From Little Goldman. And to low gold man and to South Carolina and it's South Carolina I was gonna get to that oh we're getting there don't worry about it I was gonna get to that

from Fanny Fair Katie Rich hi our dear friend we haven't done this in person in four years since before the pandemic this is really exciting

in person I think it was collateral oh yeah I think that's right I think that was literally in 2017 I changed it to a. Oh, yeah. I think that's right. I think that was literally in 2017. You changed into a party dress in the audio-boomer bathrooms. I changed into a party dress for Graydon Carter's retirement party. Oh, my God.

That's when that was. Was that 2017? I think it was. Jesus. That is 2019. 2019. It's 2019. Okay, okay.

Because you were in town. Yeah. I don't know. We're going to look up the dates. I was in town. And then I did Zoom ones for- Seattle. So it was in Seattle and-

Seattle. Death by Compser yes and Starman my friend and Starman and Starman that was fun yes

and of course we had a voicemail from you and still record holder youngest guest ever on the show oh yeah Charlie

your son Charlie who did not see Prince of Ties his top ten list not yet you know his South Carolina heritage we're gonna have to

get to that later on what would have happened if you'd sat him down and put this on he would have been incredibly bored yes like really like i guess like how quickly does he tap out um for movies at home pretty quickly because he's like oh i could be playing switch right now like in a theater like you're gonna get a longer runway but at home like you know the options are limitless this movie starts out with kids playing

it does the beach he might like the beginning. He loves the beach. Yeah. The marshes of the Carolinas we're familiar with. The sea islands. Oh, yeah. We've spent time on the coast of South Carolina in his youth. So maybe he'd be like, this is great.

I love it. Yeah, and then he's going to be like, so now there's a therapist's office. I want to turn my love with a Jew. Maybe we should watch Yentl. Maybe that'll be the first. I need you to help me get your sister out of her catatonia by sharing stories of your youth with me and then we'll fall in love. That's the premise. Yeah. That's the plot.

That's the pitch in the room. I'm no psychiatrist, but I think that is standard practice of how you work with your patients. My patient's in a coma. Get the brother. Should I see him every single day? Yeah. how you work with your patients. My patient's in a coma. Get the brother. He'll fill in the gap. Should I see him every single day? Yeah, you probably fuck him and bring him to every dinner party. Should I get my teenage son involved

for some reason? Yeah, best friend, fuck buddy, son's football coach. I somehow always forget, just having just seen this movie again, the football player. Jason Gould, looking not like a teenager. I mean, that...

What do you mean? Totally looked like 15 years old. Clearly. Sorry. That subplot is so layered. I love it. I want to get into it. But this is the second Jason Gould movie

we've covered on the podcast. Talking with people in the Hall of Fame. Because he's in, of course, anything. He's the drunk friend in the back of the car. Dude, like, keys. You have to chill. Like, whatever that is. It's the drunk friend in the back of the car. Dude, like, Keys, you have to chill, like, whatever that is. It's really funny. But that is how many years before this movie? Seven?

That's 1982. Sorry, 89. What am I talking about? It's only two years. Okay, okay. I take it back. I take it back. That's less egregious than I thought. But he's got the kind of crazy haircut in that. Yeah, somewhere between Robert Smith and F kind of crazy haircut in that. Yeah. Somewhere between Robert Smith and Flock of Seagulls.

Yeah. He looks good. Look, with those parents, of course he looks good. I think Jason Gould is handsome and talented. Yeah. And he plays the violin

at the end. I assume that was a little bit him. I wondered that. In Grand Central, it's an obvious place to play the violin. He's going to pounce

off all of the walls. Watching emotional violin playing when you're getting on your Metro North train. Oh, of course. Yeah, the gay son of Barbra Streisand is playing the violin for Nick Nolte, his football coach, right now. Anyway, track 18? Yeah, let me get on here.

This is the thing I kept thinking while watching this movie. Is there like any analog for this today? Is there like any film that we have i mean it's boring it'd be tv because this is gonna be tv right apple tv's making taylor's remaking are they though i saw that headline and i guess a lot of these projects are right are dying on the vine i mean um but yes okay is there a filmed version of this that would exist today. I'm not even saying that. I'm saying... No, I mean like this. Like a sort of

two hour plus emotional adult romance. Right. But it's a drama. Yes. Like a little funny, but largely drama. And deals with like hot button stuff. Like I think if this book gets adapted today, they're like, you do the like kind of kitchen sink

bare knuckle, like really raw version of this there's no version of going like we have to find a way to make this material like mall friendly you know that gambit of like we're just talking about missing the paperback movie you know i've been watching a lot of legal thrillers recently i've been watching a lot of legal thrillers recently. I've been watching a lot of Grisham movies, and it's that same thing where you're like, it's wild that this was viewed as the premier slice of adult popcorn franchise filmmaking.

It's a three-quadrant movie. What? Is Where the Crawdads Sing not the current David? That's a murder mystery. So the genre twists are what make all the bookends? Something like Where the Crawdads Sing is close-ish David. That's a murder mystery. So the genre twists are what make all the bookends. Something like where the Proudhead Singh is close-ish, but like, that's a murder thing. It's the closest equivalent.

And I still think there's like, that movie is doing this weird sort of like, indie film cosplay, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have the studio gloss thing. Right, where it's like, we need to make this feel a little gritty. And that thing did well.

It did very well. It's obviously a sign of sign of you know let's come on hollywood it was not critically respected yeah it was bad i mean look they're not all good it made one mistake well those crawdads didn't sing loud enough for you to hear them so no but i think that's like that's kind of the equivalent but it's's, look, for better or for worse, because we've also, we've been, we're recording this because you're in town, overlapping a little bit with our Fincher records. So we're still in that zone and we've been doing the Fincher airport paperback.

You're in the Gone Girl, Dragon Touch era. Right, where his whole thing is like, I'm not going to fucking clean these up at all. The fact that this book's a bestseller means that I get to put this on the screen and you're not going to question it. Yeah. Whereas, like, Streisand is doing this fascinating, like, how do you make this work in a Hollywood movie? Yeah, and she's taking a book that is massive and has so much weirder stuff than what you see in the movie. I cannot express to you how weird the book is.

I hope you try. It's also quite long. It's very long. And it's got a lot of like Southern kookiness in it that you would think of like fried green tomatoes or like, which right at the same time that like there's just not time for.

So she kind of reframes it as being this romance, which is a big part of the book, but it's almost like the frame story for all the like juicy Southern melodrama. And she's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm Barbra Streisand. This movie's about me.

I've never had fried green tomato. Oh, they're amazing. Phenomenal. You've never had that? Great. I have, I've only been to the South like a few times in my life.

I don't know. Come on, come back and we'll fix it. And that's a cuisine that didn't cross the ocean. There's no Southern food in like Europe. It doesn't exist. Don't you look at me. There's fried chicken.

There's fried chicken, but that's a cuisine that exists in a lot of places in the world. Lots of people have had the concept of breading chicken and dumping it in oil. Good concept, to be clear. You know, thumbs up. KFC, though. I've heard of them, yes. KFC does exist in the UK.

Yes, I know, but you can't get a chicken fried steak. You can't get hush puppies. In the UK, do, I know, but you can't get like a chicken fried steak. You can't get fried, you can't get hush puppies. In the UK, do they make him Lord Sanders? King Sanders. Lieutenant Sanders, I think is where you go.

Lieutenant Sanders. I just like the idea of having to reframe Colonel Sanders. And also Baron Sanders. Baron Sanders. KFC exists, but, and correct me,

you know, it's been 15 years, but like, I don't know that any other chains like that, like Popeyes or any have ever made the crop. Now, now maybe they're trying. Possibly. Chick-fil-A, et cetera.

I don't know. Sure. They don't have fried green tomatoes at any of those places. So you got to come. No, that's what I'm saying. I'm talking about real. Have you had pimento cheese? Huh?

Have you had pimento cheese? I mean, I have had pimento cheese. Okay. It's pimento cheese and fried green tomato on a sandwich is where it really gets good. So. But I ain't had no pimento cheese okay it's pimento cheese and fried green tomato on a sandwich is where it really gets good so but i ain't had no pimento cheese in the the uk my friend would probably taste terrible i don't think they would do a very good job like southern food and mexican food i think england has largely been like we would just mess that up we don't need to take a stab at this. I guess this is the bigger part of like, right. In the 90s, adapting any bestseller book is still a pretty safe bet, right?

Yeah. Like that holds cultural sway. You write a hit book, studios will be interested. Right. Your advertising budget's basically covered already. And you can attract top talent to do it. And you do it at the highest levels of studio filmmaking. And there was always this thing. I just

remember a piece I read in Mad Magazine probably in the mid-90s that stuck with me. You read Mad Magazine for the articles. I did. I'd rip out the centerfold. Aragones, he's gone! That stuff was smut. What Aragones was

doing in the margins was smut. What Aragones was doing in the margins was smut. You write a piece in Mad Magazine. I'm just imagining like eight-year-old Griffin, you know, like sitting in an armchair. Being like, hmm. The tide sounds pretty good. With a little bubble pipe. Right. No, there was a Mad Magazine piece that always stuck with me that was like movies versus reality.

Sure. And it was like a side-by-side thing. And it was basically a piece on like the way 90s Hollywood films would take true life stories and clean them up. Sure. Or like kind of naughty novels and streamline them and take out the thorny parts.

And there was that kind of thing where it's like, well, you're going to make this into a big Hollywood film, but obviously you can't put that in there. And this character can't do that. And that character has to be removed entirely. And Prince of Tides is one of those things where you're going to make this into a big Hollywood film, but obviously you can't put that in there. And this character can't do that. And that character has to be removed entirely. Right. And Prince of Tides is one of those things

where you're just like, well, you kind of can't get around what the movie's about. No, I guess. You can't rewrite it entirely. You can like shift focuses. Yeah. Yeah, it's all leading up to

the worst thing that you can imagine happening to a family, which they show so much more of than I remember. And she's like trying to fight to figure out the tone that can support needing to stare that directly in the eye. Yeah. But I mean, they could have changed or sanitized

or sort of toned down that trauma, I guess. It probably wouldn't have gone well. Well, that specific traumatic scene, we might get to it. It is, there's one dramatic change from the book. Oh, there is, see from the book um dramatic change that we can get to when we get to that scene but but like you know you've got the abusive father and this is the author of the great santini which had already been a movie so if you want to really change the focus i had a bit of a bad dad yes he kind of keeps showing up um but you can change the focus to be a bad dad story which is much more standard but like i don't know if the movie is better

if you do that, right? No, no, no. It's worse. It's way worse. That's the thing. Like I'm, because the Lowenstein is less crucial to the book, right? The book is much more rooted in his past.

Yeah, she's like the, you know, tell me the story of your life. And you're like, and the story of the life is what takes up hundreds of pages. And I think at the time people were like, well, of course, Streisand gets her hand on this and the psychiatrist is all over the picture. Yeah. But if this movie is just like i had a shitty family let me tell you about it it could be fine but like this movie instead is like let me tell my psychiatrist about

it and fall in love with her upper crust like upper east side life and have sex with her and coach her son at football when he's clearly a concert violinist yes i'm like now this is a movie unlike any other and it's really watchable and it's well acted incredibly well acted yeah and it's something i will think about versus like there's a lot of films such as the great santini a great film i love the great santini yeah it's a good film but it's you know a great film. I love The Great Santini. It's a good film, but it's, you know, a great bad dad movie. Yes. I can watch that if I need to see

just a bad dad. Right. It's the difference between this is a movie made by a director. Yeah. Okay.

So talking about like analogs, right? Because I feel like when Bradley Cooper started his directing career, the thing was like, oh, he's doing the Beatty, right?

He's following in this model. Bradley Cooper is the analog to Streisand. I had this exact thought watching this movie. We just did the fucking Star is Born. Hers. Right? Which then only had never seen it before. I didn't realize how much Cooper's

movie is directly remaking her movie. Right, because it's the music movie. Right. It's the most reminiscent in a way. And I have not been lucky enough to see Maestro yet. Maestro. Maestro.

Maestro. Only I have seen Maestro. Katie is seeing it, I believe, tomorrow. I'm seeing it tomorrow as we speak. Our episode will have already come out on it by this point in time, but we're recording this early. Well, we're really best with the timeline here. We're really flipping it up. Much like Tom Wingo

going through his childhood memories. Much like Bradley Cooper's presentation of the story of Maestro. Well then. But similarly, it feels like, huh, they're like working through

some stuff, right? Like what material they choose to glom onto and how they frame those stories. I love. Well, certainly that is my take on Maestro while being respectful to the private life of Bradley Cooper,

which I know nothing about. Of course. Except for gossip and innuendo. I make no direct. No, 100%. But yes, no, which I much prefer. And that's why when I've been hearing rumors of like, oh, Cooper is being such a diva about Maestro.

Like he wants to show it at the big concert hall and do a concert afterwards. And everyone, oh, what a prima donna. I'm like, we need more prima donnas. We need more of them. I don't need people who are going to be like, you know, it was a pleasure to work with, you know, this giant conglomerate to bring the best version of Lobo to life. Like, no, I want to hear about crazy people. Like, we love Ron Howard, but we don't need different actor turned directors.

I'm happy for Ron Howard to do his thing. But he's always been do his thing. Yes. But he's always been there. Yeah. Yes. You know, if I hear Ron Howard tomorrow, like, you know, talking like Ridley Scott, I would be like, Ronnie, what's the matter, baby? Are you okay? I was talking to someone. I'll anonymize this, but I was talking to someone who was a key crew on Maestro.

Sure. Department head. Right. And was talking about how difficult he was. Mr. B. Cooper. Yes. And I was like, but that sounds kind of interesting to me. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, anonymizing.

That's who I want to anonymize. The director of Maestro. Would be funny if you knew Bradley Cooper and he was like, I'm such a pain in the ass. Like he's giving you the cut. Well, he was just like talking about like how exacting he was. And I was like,

but that's kind of exciting to me. And he was like, no, no, let me be clear. I loved it. Right, right. You get less of that these days. That's the thing. He was kind of talking

through the prism of like, look, he is like super demanding and specific and controlling. And it's like not a very collaborative process. And it's like obsessive but there's like a thing clearly driving him and it's nice to work with someone who is that driven and strice and the whole thing with her as a director at this time very normal very calm definitely

didn't have any perspective or you know go ahead go ahead. Yes, the whole thing about her. No, this weird push and pull of like, you know, oh, she reframes the movie to be about the love story and Lone Scene saving his life and all this sort of stuff. And you're like, oh, an obvious diva Barbra Streisand move, right? But to some degree, I do think

and this bears out in like the stuff that JJ compiled for us, she is strategic about the fact of, like, I want to be directing movies and my greatest asset in directing movies is making myself the star of my movies. I know they won't give me the bandwidth if I don't place myself at the center

of the films. You know, she wanted to do Yentl with a different actor and it was just not going to fucking happen. And it took her, what, 10 years to get it made even then? So she, like, rewrote it and made the character older because it's, like, the only way this gets made if it's me and I to fucking happen. And it took her, what, 10 years to get it made even then? So she like rewrote it and made the character older because it's like the only way this gets made if it's me and I sing. She Dobbsed it.

Yeah. She did a Dobbs. No, Dobbs. The problem with Albert Dobbs, I think. Dobbs. Jesus, not Dobbs. What? Who's Albert Dobbs?

Albert Dobbs. The problem with Albert Dobbs, right, was that she didn't age it up enough maybe, right? Like it was like she'd been trying to make it for so long that once she finally made it, you were like, why is it? I'm 15 years old. I mean, in Yentl, you certainly get the vibe like, you're a Shiva boy, eh? Like, it was like, she'd been trying to make it for so long that once she finally made it, you were like, why is it? I'm 15 years old. I mean, in Yentl,

you certainly get the vibe like a yeshiva boy, eh? You're right. But it's great. But this balance of like, and it's what's so fascinating about Stray Sansol's persona is like,

please don't look at me. Please don't look at me. Why is no one paying attention to me? I can't. I can't. I insist that you beg me to. We need more.

I mean, I can't get over the way that she films herself. And I think this comes up more in The Mirror Has Two Faces, which I'm guessing you guys haven't watched yet. No.

I watched that a while ago. Yeah, that's where she does like the full makeover and it's like, can you believe how beautiful this woman standing before you is? And she's like well into her 50s when she makes that movie.

Yeah. But even this movie has it like shot panning up her legs like from Nick Nolte's is. And she's like well into her 50s when she makes that movie. But even this movie has a shot panning up her legs, like from Nick Nolte's perspective. She's big. She also has like the spotlight from the Eiffel Tower on her at all times. She knows how to make herself look great. And I don't know if Bradley Cooper,

I haven't seen Maestro, I don't know if he has that yet. I want him to embrace that aspect. But Cooper is not like that, and we'll stop this comparison. It's a different type of vanity. Yeah, his glamour is like, I'm a monster. Right. Yeah.

That's the thing. Like Bradley Cooper doing Elephant Man on Broadway. And when he talks about that and he's like, I didn't want any makeup. I just did with my body because my whole body's fucked up. And he'll do these interviews where he's like, well, no one notices this, but like my shoulders are like lopsided. My skull is off angle. You're right, Bradley. You're hideous. He's like so obsessed with all of his like physical things. this but like my shoulders are like lopsided my skull is off angle you're right bradley you're

hideous he's like so obsessed with all of his like physical things and it's that same thing where it's like i think it's different with him i mean part of this is like gender divide stuff where it's like he's fighting with perceptions of masculinity yeah whereas barbara is sort of like you know there's there's still no other movie star in history who has ever looked like her. No. Yeah. You know? And it's like, it's hard to define like what Jewishness is, right?

But she's the proudest standard bearer of Jewish beauty. Right. How much of this is cultural or. Right. Right. But you're just like everyone else who is thrown out as like a beautiful Jewish star, the subtext of it is, they don't look Jewish,

however you define that, right? There's this attitude of like, well, Paul Newman, we're so proud that Paul Newman's a Jew. He kind of looks like a goy, right? You know, or like Jewish actresses who got the nose job and then they sort of like

assimilate a little bit more. Well, Jennifer Grey is the one who fucks it up where she like did it after people had... She never should have done it. Yes.

I mean, whatever. I hope she's happy. But she said she shouldn't have done it. Yeah, hasn't she said she regrets it? But it's like the complicated, thorny, like the self-loathing

cultural Judaism of Hollywood, right? This like industry created largely by Jewish American immigrants because it was seen as low class, right? This like industry created largely by Jewish American immigrants because it was seen as low class. Right? This is like the dregs in the same way that

they like took over the Catskills. Because it's like that's unbecoming to tell jokes at a country club. Very true. Making movies. That's like carny folks stuff, right? Very true. Here's an industry we can like build from the ground up. And then part of that is this innate whitewashing of like, but people don't want to see us.

Manc! Our attitudes have to be washed and Anglo-Saxonized a little bit. Totally. Stay in the shadows. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, or whatever. Or present as all American. And Barbara is so unapologetically Jewish, becomes a

superstar doing Fanny Bryce, and then is constantly fighting this like, I still never feel like I'm quite enough. Do you feel like the like the halves of this movie where like you've got the New York part of it that she's in, which is very like New York Hermel you. And then she's got the South Carolina parts of it where it's like sweeping sunsets and shrimp boats where she's like, look, I can branch out of this. Like you think I can only do this new yorkie thing but here we go but i also do feel like she has a real grip on what new york is like in the early 90s manhattan yeah and she has more like my grip on what the sea islands are probably like right like if i went to south carolina i'd be like so it's bridges and some boats and shit right what do you got down here? Here's my biggest question.

Are any crawdads singing? Can we pick up some audio? My biggest question. What is this color? Huh? There's this like sea islands color. Like it's okay. Go ahead.

It's like the main like color of any of the southern parts of this movie, especially the flashback sequences. Like you're talking about the sky. And the water. There's, like, this color of, like, all these, like, sweeping helicopter shots.

No. Okay, I think that's what it is. I feel like I'm going insane that you guys don't know what I'm talking about. There are, like, these sweeping helicopter shots of, like, the water and the sunset and the boats and everything is cast in this one color

that's,'s like this weird like pinky orange. That's sort of sunsets, right? It's like golden hour and everything. And the tides. He's the prince of them,

you know? Very disappointed Poseidon wasn't in this movie, though. I did think he should've showed up, maybe. You know, in the book, the prince of tides is someone else entirely.

Who's the prince of tides? Is it Luke? Yeah, it's the brother who gets like mostly cut out of the movie with good reason. I understand cutting him out because it's like he's dead yeah much more and you're gonna spend another half hour being like let me tell you about this dead character though the brother i mean he seems like a badass i kind of wanted to see that play out yeah let's

fucking do a sequel let's keep taylor out of the he does like a real warfare against the atomic atomic energy commission you're giving him one that whole thing is based on a real town south Let's keep Taylor out of it. He does like guerrilla warfare against the Atomic Energy Commission. You're giving him what? That whole thing is based on a real town in South Carolina. It's very close to where I grew up, but they moved the whole dang town. So you grew up in South Carolina? Yes, I grew up in South Carolina. I live now in North Carolina.

That's where it gets confusing. I did not grow up on the coast, though. Not really where this is taking place. You grew up near Georgia, right? Yeah, inland, but near the Savannah River site, which was an AEC post-Oppenheimer nuclear weapons plant, which they based that part of the story about the brother in the book on.

But it's not in the movie, so. What is the deal with the brother in the book? He's like the strong, tough guy. And so they reveal the big traumatic childhood thing that's like the climax of the movie in some ways. And then after that, he kind of does this like guerrilla warfare thing against the people trying to build the power plant

and like blows up a bridge. Because like Nolte kind of describes it in a speech, but they basically show that entire thing. And he and the sister try to go save him and then he gets shot and that's what happens to him. So it's the same thing, but just kind of off to the side. But it makes the title make sense in a way that,

I mean, I don't know how you guys felt when you got to it in the movie, but you're like, huh, you, you're the prince. It makes perfect sense of it out. But it makes the title make sense in a way that, I mean, I don't know how you guys felt when you got to it in the movie, but you're like, huh, you, you're the prince. Makes perfect sense to me. This guy's been... He's a prince. He talks about tides.

No more questions. Football coach and tides. They go together perfectly. I, I, I respect the tides greatly. And thus, I respect the prince of tides. And respect and fear them. Yes. David.

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You were just going to let that go out over the air? You were cooking. The Prince of Tides was released in 1991, by barbara streisand a famous singer i don't know if you've heard of her her second picture eight years after her first picture her first film yentl was released in 1983 and after that barbara kind of takes a break she's been pretty famous pretty consistently for i think about 15 you know plus years at that point and post yentl is when she kind of recedes a little bit. Is Nuts the only movie she does

between Yentl and Prince of Ties? A film I've never seen. A classic, 1987. A classic, David takes the VHS off at the video store and is like, what is this? Almost every time I went to the video store. One of the wildest posters.

Yeah, and it's a lot of text. Nuts. Have you ever seen nuts no i'm honestly it's like a courtroom nuts which is not the same no no no this movie is not about legumes or pecans or anything like that it's about someone who kills it's it's her husband or she's a call girl yeah that's right yeah she's yes and she kills a client and she's trying to be declared Yeah, that's right. Yes. And she kills a client and she's trying to be declared mentally incompetent or maybe not be declared mentally incompetent,

hence nuts. And Dreyfus is her lawyer. Yeah, Dreyfus in a weird, weird role for him is sort of a nervy lawyer. Is this like a Prestige-y Oscar play thing? Martin Ray didn't go off.

Yeah, okay. But it was sort of like her going far outside of her comfort zone. Yes. Classic like movie that got like four Golden Globe knobs and zero knobs from any other legitimate awards organization.

Because Yentl gets like some Oscar attention but kind of disrespected, right? Which is going to be the theme of her career. And we will talk about that. Yeah. So you can imagine her going off that being like, I'll show you, I'll play crazy. And it doesn't work out either.

Right. She also released the Broadway album, which is a very famous Streisand album it made like you know went like quadruple platinum or whatever but I think she's um not doing too much she goes to see Larry Kramer's the normal heart in 1985 let's I just say quickly I mean part of this is a it's like she's entering her third into fourth decade of like stardom, super stardom, right? Yeah, sure. And Yentl is like the thing she's been pushing for her whole career.

She gets this validation of like, you did it. People had their knives out, even if it's disrespected by the Oscars. It was like, okay, you earned yourself a place at the table. We have to semi respect you as a filmmaker. And it does feel. But I think she was like it was kind of the butt of jokes at the time a little bit it was but i think she quieted them to a certain degree i would disagree with that i think yentl people made fun of a lot at

the time i i disagree i i think this is the movie that establishes her as more of a legitimate filmmaker now we think of yentl better than they did them i think the bigger point is even if my original point was incorrect which maybe i'll consider uh i think the bigger point is that she at this point is like i'm not ceding control to anyone right certainly i've been able to direct my own films i'm not just going to be slotted into stuff. Why'd she make nuts, though? Well, you know what? Let's talk about it,

because I bet you this is a little bit in the... But she starts to do very little press, very selective about what she does, and just like, I'd rather do nothing for several years. What's her personal life like at this point? I'm sure it's very normal. She always dated very normal men.

I want to tell you that she saw The Normal Heart. Okay. 1985, a seismic play off Broadway. Larry Kramer's film about the HIV epidemic

and asks Kramer, can I make this into a movie? A pretty bold notion in 1985. Kramer says when he hears about this,

he like collapses in joy. He's like, I cannot believe this. Like, you know, obviously the play is like my life. It's so important to me. But like the idea that Streisand, like she could actually get this over the line. I think a lot of his friends were like, are you kidding me?

She's going to come in and Hollywoodize it and strangle it. And he's just like, the whole point is I wanted to use this as like a tool for communication. I did this as a play because it was the fastest way to get the voice out there. But he does say, I would have to write the script. Yes. But he recognizes Streisand's going to give this a platform. She's going to

legitimize the conversation in a way that will get people's attention. But I need to still have the authorial voice over the script he says she was very professional they worked for weeks you know like you know trying to figure everything out one point apparently he gave her what he says was a pretty graphic book about gay sex and i'm sure it disturbed her but i felt she had to understand something about the physical side of homosexual love would love to see that that sounds That sounds like a real Larry Kramer move. 80s Larry Kramer being

like, check this out, Barbara. The other thing in there is that he has said that Jason, her son, had not come out yet. Yes, but he was maybe aware. She could perhaps sense. And she was probably right. To some degree, her working with this material

was her trying to understand. But she would not let him write the screenplay or at least not guarantee it in the contract they got in a fight over it and that killed it yes I mean also Larry Kramer Barbara Streisand are two very strong personalities yes so not killed her first attempt

at trying to make yes so nuts she does produce apparently she clashed with the director and consider directing that or was that always just I don't know like it doesn't produce apparently she clashed with the director oh interesting um and did you ever consider directing that or was that always just i i don't know like it doesn't it just says that she produced it and i think she did the music for it so i mean she was creative the score yes but the score is nuts it's just her shaking a bag of pistachios into the microphone. I mean, am I wrong about this?

One of us got to watch Nuts. Maybe I'll check out Nuts. I'll watch Nuts. I'm going to try to fill in Barbara Gaps while we're on this series. Gentil is 83. Yes, and Nuts is 87. From 83 on...

Tides is 91. She's one every four years. She throws a wow. From 83 to 2023, a 40-year year gap am i wrong in thinking she has only acted in four movies that she did not direct so the others being not fuckers two fuckers and the guilt trip is that it yes this is the bigger point i'm trying to make guilt trip is good good guilt trip is like i need to watch good and she's fucking unreal. She and Seth Rogen seem like a good pair. The whole thing with her is she's always good.

Yes. In my opinion. Yeah. Like, even in the Fockers movies, I don't, yeah, I don't like those movies very much. But like, my whole argument for why Meet the Fockers is better than Meet the Parents. I knew we were going to get here. Which I have debuted to a lot of controversy before. Yeah. Is largely, I'm just like, I don't know, Barbra Streisand is in it.

And that's like kind of huge for me. Hoffman is unbelievable. The two of them are funny. I rewatched all three of them recently for reasons I cannot explain. They're so,

they're aging like fucking milk. Milk. Like the minute those movies came out, they started desiccating. Hoffman is like destroying in those movies.

Streisand is fun, but they give her such a one dimensional. You know, I'm a Jewish mom. Sex. She was there for like four days. She's like, this is what you get.

Probably. Yeah. And you're right, Griff. That's it. Those are her only, you know, credits.

Right. So it's like three big studio comedies, which I assume she was just paid a lot of money. Totally. And then nuts is the only other film where you feel like, did she almost want to direct this and she wasn't directing but she's a very hands-on producer. Yeah, I almost

I'm sort of confused as to why she didn't direct it. I just think from Yentl on, and perhaps it is because she wasn't fully accepted. She's just like, you know what? I'm not playing the game. I'm doing everything by my rules. I'd rather just fucking sit it out. I'm not doing interviews when I don't have to. I do an album when I feel like it.

She has this tremendous power of just, she is Barbra Streisand. Anytime she wants to, she can cut a new album, do a residency, do a special or do a tour and make so much fucking money and have the attention of the world.

Right. Where it's like, you will always have devoted, gigantic, like, you know, appeal. Right. Like now, if she was like, I'm doing a stadium tour, she would sell every fucking one out for like 800 bucks a seat or whatever. I mean, her memoir is still about to come out as we record this. And you assume that she's making a chunk of money on that thing.

Right. I'm sure she'd do that for free. It's also like a thousand pages long. It's a Kindle single. It's a Kindle single. Pat Conroy. Yes. Katie katie yeah the novelist proud south carolinian publishes the prince of tides a book confusingly not about poseidon in 1986 it's quite long almost 600 pages it sells half a barber memoir. Right. Half a Babs. It sells 2 million copies by 1991. A lot of copies, to be clear.

Obviously, Water is Wide. That turned into a movie. That's a famous book. Great Santini. You're Gonna Cry. Basketball. Lords of Discipline got turned into a movie. So he's made.

He's already an established thing. You've seen those. Have you seen Great Santini? I've seen Santini. Yeah yeah i haven't seen the other season yeah and i've seen the santini sequel what's the santini sequel kicking and screaming basically i guess it's a legacy sequel but everyone's like kind of chilled out at that point duval is just kind of mean he's not like actively abusive that's kind of the vibe he's had for thevall's just kind of mean. He's not like actively abusive. That's kind of the vibe he's had for the last decade or so. He's pretty mean.

He's still alive, right? Duvall's still with us? Yeah. I feel like that's one where I got to check in every day. You got to check by the time this is released. That's the other thing. We're recording this like four months in advance. Like that's one where I'm like,

do I need to catch up on like a couple Duvalls I haven't seen just so I'm really prepped for the obit? No offense to 92-year-old Robert Duvall, haven't seen just so I'm really prepped for the obit. No offense to 92 year old Robert Duvall who I hope lives for another 50 years. It is a wild thing of just like life expectancy being what it is that there is a tier of like legendary movie stars who still feel

vital and work a fair amount who are now in their 90s. 92 years old. Now if Duvall's in a movie now he's playing an extremely old probably racist man who's like that's largely what he does he's doing some serious chair work I'm sure he's done that since Widows but Widows

is the main one I think of he did a great job with it do you think he's excited when it's like you die not of natural causes at this point he's like hell yeah I hope he's alive when this episode comes out I hope he's so fucking alive when this episode comes out. I hope he's so fucking alive when this episode comes out.

Like he's on Dancing with the Stars or something? Sorry. Okay. Prince of Tides. He's going to play Bi-Beast in the next Marvel

fucking Thunderbolts movie. No, he's playing like a really young character. He's playing Franklin Richards. He's in Hustle, a really good movie. The Adam Sandler basketball movie. He's great in Hustle. He's great in that. A lot of on the phone in that one. He's in Hustle, a really good movie. The Adam Sandler basketball movie.

He's great in Hustle. A lot of on the phone in that one. He dies of natural causes early in the movie, but in the scenes he's in, great. No, he's, yes, he is auto prestige in my opinion. Right, even in the worst trash. Can't phone it. And Hustle's good. Yeah.

Conroy sold the rights to Prince of Tides to CBS Theatrical Films for the many efforts at like a CBS film studio that flopped. Yeah, they keep doing that every 10 years or so. It's always bad news. Because it's a television station. Crying out loud. Project gets kicked to United Artists when CBS

goes under. J. Preston Allen does a polish of a screenplay. The great J. Preston Allen. Absolutely. Robert Mandel is attached as a director. Who is that? He made School T Allen. Absolutely. Robert Mandel is attached as a director. Who is that? He made School Ties. Okay. Okay. He made FX. It was a pretty big hit.

Yeah. But School Ties is kind of that makes sense as a kind of like, you know, kind of a feely drama. Right. Yeah. Redford is attached. Makes a lot of sense. Certainly. Beatity was also rumored at one point shocking um and then barbara streisand literally hears there's a book with a character

called dr susan lowenstein that is not a joke yes and she's like i'm fucking perfect for this sounds like a vehicle for me. No more information needed. The quote that I love is, identify with this woman completely, even to a line in the book that says she's in the middle of aging extraordinarily well. This is the thing with her, okay? That's from a 1991 interview.

That's not even some rueful looking back quote. The thing about Barbara as a director, and I think she's a very interesting director, is there were such slams on her at the time of like, she's so vain. Everything is this monument to her. It's all about making her look good. And you're like, this is reductive and sexist. And then you dig into it and you're like, look, she was.

I heard the character was a 50-year-old hottie and I was in. I seized the rights in a hostile takeover. I don't think it is her exclusive interest and I don't think it's to the detriment of the film, but it's part of the interesting

conflict in her work. I love the idea of her having like an army of assistants where it's like scour the earth for any story with a 50-year-old

hot Jewish lady. Well, it makes me wonder because Connery had his books adapted enough at this point? Did he write the character of Susan Lowenstein

thinking, hmm, maybe Barbara Streisand would play her in the movie? I would love him to admit that, but you've read the book. It's not a major character, right? No, but it's like she could be a strong

supporting role in a different version of this movie. I think if you're writing it as Barbara Bate, you write this movie as a book. Yeah.

You don't make that a side thing. Or you could at least be like, who do I imagine for this beautiful Jewish New York therapist? Barbara Streisand. She would come to mind. And I do not mean to speak ill of Pat Conroy. Who is dead, to be clear, so we cannot ask him unfortunately. No, it's just like where you're like,

and then she had a New York therapist. You know, 50 year old, rich Upper East Side Jewish woman is a stereotypical therapist for someone to have in New York City. And a real Babs type. Yeah. It's not like, yeah, you know, oh, yeah, it was this 28-year-old guy. They play a lot of streetball. Like, you know, it's going to be like a lady in a fancy office.

He could have been coaching the therapist on how to play football and you would have put it all together. Well, that might have been good. That would have been coaching the therapist on how to play football and you would have put it all together well that might have been good that would have been really good uh now this is a take from marty bergman uh closer into barbara that i kind of like where he's like barbara's family was fractured by the death of her father so early yentl's sort of an homage to her father he thinks coming to terms with that loss uh prince of tides is about forgiveness i think and not blaming it's about coming to terms with other things in her life. Forgiving her mother. Forgiving her own son.

Yes. I guess. Again, this is Marty Bergman's take. Barbara Streisand's take is like, I heard she was hot. Barbara's father dies when she's a year and a half. Yes, very young. And she talks a lot about the Phantom Father,

which was her relationship to the man that everyone talked about. No, it's Darth Sidious. Oh, I'm sorry. He's the Phantom Menace. Oh, shit. Darth Plagueis is kind of the Phantom father is the implication. Oh, God. But the way her father was spoken

of as this incredibly charming, noble, sophisticated man, her mother remarries and her stepfather is this like incredibly cold, dispassionate man. And she's like chasing a father she can never know. And the man who's in front of her, there's a really heartbreaking

little anecdote that JJ put in the dossier of her as a little girl being like, you know what? I'm going to like commit two days of my life to being exactly what I think my stepfather wants me to be. And just like waited on him hand and foot and sat next to him slippers right yeah watching the football game of like if I like

football too well he like me if this works right and it made no difference and she was just like this man will never ever be interested in me and that is the part of me that like made me capable of singing like tragic love songs when I was a teenager is just this inherent, like unfillable void inside me, which also leads to, I mean, and she says this like directly, there's a, there's a quote in there, but it's like, it's the part of me that never believed any compliment ever offered to me. Partly because her mother never gave her any compliments. She said, and her mom said, I never wanted you to have a swelled head.

Yes. But she was like, you know, my mother was like realistic of like, you have to be like, you have to adjust your expectations for your career with the way you look. But it's very interesting because yes, a lot of these quotes are her saying like, yeah, the Prince of Tides in a way it's about learning to appreciate your mother, things like that. That's sort of what it's about. I would say if Barbara, if that's like her emotional connection in the material, that makes a lot of sense.

If I'm Barbara's mother and I watch this, I'm not like, oh, yeah, we clearly are doing great. You know, like, yeah, this is really repairing my relationship. Watching this movie and knowing that Kate Nelligan got a supporting actor, actress nomination. Yeah. I was waiting for like a wild catharsis scene in the last act of the movie that does not happen. No, she's good in the film and she's a theater legend. But that nomination is borderline surprising, in my opinion. It's strange.

Frankie and Johnny was the same year. It was. And she won. And she's a huge Broadway actor in the 80s. So, like, right. But she won the BAFTA for Frankie and Johnny the same year. And several critics groups. Back then, the BAFTAs were drunk off their ass

they would do all kinds of shit five acting nominations for Trading Places no the thing I was going to say she several critics groups

gave her split best supporting actress for those two movies and this is the Oscar player it was one of those years yeah it's like the one you can single out from it

to kind of go all the way you don't want to give it to Blythe? Poor Blythe. Nommeless. Fascinating. The Fockers. That's true.

And she's in Blythe and the Great Santini, too. Oh, sure. But I just like Blythe being her, like, wasp foil. Yes, right. Multiple times over the years, they keep butting heads. I would say in my Southern Accents ranking, Blythe is coming in near the bottom. God bless her. She just doesn't have that, like,

I grew up in South Carolina vibe about her. No, I mean, she's not from the South. She looks great on the beach, though. She makes sense as the, and I say this with all due respect to the character and the woman, cold fish. You know, the kind of, like, placid, lovely wife that lovely wife that you know two minutes in you're like nolte's cheating on her oh boy she's cheating on him that's the twist i know he gets sort of cortical permission phone call who is he ah god damn it it's that fucking guy i love that scene

that's a great scene that guy sucks i just love the idea of that scene of him being like, look, if it was Jim over at the horror, I get it. That guy's a million bucks. He's my least favorite guy. My last choice to cut me. This movie is so good. It's so wild. Okay, so Pat Conroy

is guaranteed the opportunity to write the first draft. They write a script Pat Conroy is guaranteed the opportunity to write the first draft. They write a script and Conroy himself says, I don't think it was very good. I can't imagine how long it was. It must have been crazy. Streisand says, I adore him. You know, he was fabulous. Then he started to write.

He can't really do a screenplay. It's too beautifully written. That's how she puts it. Like too poetic in a way. But like the dialogue is not actable when he's translating it directly from the book. Probably That's how she puts it. Like too poetic in a way. But like the dialogue is not actable when he's translating it directly from the book.

Probably that's what he's doing. Part of it. And then she says, I want to spend two weeks with you. I want to get to know you. I want to tell you who I'm telling the story about. So they all hung out.

He gave her a copy of the book with the following inscription to Barbara Streisand, the Queen of Tides. Yada, yada, yada, you're the best. I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's fucking awesome. Yada, yada,ada yada you're the best I'm not gonna read the whole thing it's fucking yada yada yada it would be funny if that's what he wrote it's on Wikipedia I think I feel like that gives you a good

sense of his prose which is very flowery and like I think can work better sometimes and other than others but I think that's a big part of the appeal of the book that's really hard for the movie to capture is the like the voiceover Nolte does is all taken directly from the book the criterion blu-ray of this is fascinating because i for whatever reason assume this was one of those discs like something wild where occasionally criterion will put a disc out

where it's like special features scene selection and you're like your criterion isn't your whole fucking thing yeah right scooping up all the context and i for some reason thought this was one of those but this is in fact a movie that got a Criterion Laserdisc release in the early days they have like old commentary or whatever it feels like Streisand supplied them with a bunch of shit in a way that only like James Cameron and a few other

filmmakers are doing at the time where they have like multi-angle shit and like breakdowns of her editing process and all this stuff but one of the things they have is like a go arrow by arrow through gallery of different book and strip inscriptions that Carol wrote to her. And they're like four of them and they're all really good. And they say much like David quoted beautifully,

yada, yada, yada, so on and so forth. Well, we got to keep moving. Becky Johnson gets the, the other credit and Barbara works on this script a lot, but the one i want to say is he said like i i have you you have

given my book back to me yeah how nice of him i feel like you unlocked a thing you taught me a lot about how to be an artist the process of what's working together taught me a lot but also like this book was so difficult for me to work through and working through my past and my demons that even when the book came out and it was acclaimed it felt too close to me and I kind of like shuddered and hid away from it. Alright, I'm cutting you off. We gotta keep going. Well, come on. We haven't

even gotten to the plot yet and also I have to tell you that Barbara Streisand took the book on a trip to Greece with her because she wanted to visit the ancient site of myths. Okay. I just like the idea for being like, this book needs to like collect some Acropolis vibes. There's tides in Greece. There's fucking tides everywhere.

There's only one prince. Not in Nebraska where Dick Nolte is from. Fair. That's true. They're not really near the oceans over there. They might have some rivers. They probably do. Do rivers have t rivers. They can.

Sure. Rivers can be tidal. Come on, guys. Yeah, but they have to be near the ocean to be tidal. All rivers somehow connect to the ocean or whatever. Stop it. We're not having a river tangent right now. That's like Nemo logic. I don't know if that's real.

The Thames has tides, but obviously, yes. The River Thames in't you don't you dare start i this is no my mouth is a gate it's been like months do you mean years uh all right easiest role to cast dr lowenstein that one's gonna going to go to Barbara Streisand. Robert Redford, first choice for Wingo maybe. Nick Nolte gets it. Streisand felt like he had the right combination of machismo and sensitivity. Not wrong.

Yeah. Can't argue with that. That's what he gives you. Well, it's also, look, the power of casting him in this role is watching him for 90 minutes and going like, this guy's suppressing a lot of anger right yeah that Nick Nolte playing full charm you're never losing sight of what he's got bottled you still think that guy could you know throw your fiddle

off a building right gonna do it now Streisand said she was like I want you this is a romantic film you're gonna be a romantic lady man he was like no I'm a character I'm not that but she was like I thought he had all the sense, you know, potential for that to do love scenes and stuff like which he hadn't really done throughout the 80s. This is the thing that makes him the sexiest man alive.

By not doing, oh, because in this movie, they're like, oh, you're a sex symbol now. Right. I think it's at 50 makes him a little bit more of like a romantic leading man. Right. Yeah. You know, Nolte loves her. Excellent director, he he says she knows the problems of the actor she's very visual think she thinks in rhythms because of music so she's very

attuned to sound you know i'd love to hear him talk about barbara streisand 40 minutes put it on an lp just him reminiscing about barbara you should do spoken word poetry you should do an album of duets with Barbara But he takes the high part for some reason She's going low Don't tell me how Jason Gould's in this film How'd he get cast? Well, the initial casting went to Chris O'Donnell Really?

He was cast He was hot back then And then, you know, Jason thought, she thought Jason was too old for the part. Good thinking. Yep. But he was quote unquote adamant.

Streisand says, he never asked me for anything. He's never really been ambitious in that way. Never been desired to be famous. But he said, I really want this role. Like, so, I don't know. And Pat Conroy

apparently saw a picture of him and said, like, who's this kid? And she's like, that's my son. And he's like, that's Bernard. That's Bernard Lowenstein. Like, that'd work. He does look the part.

So Pat Conroy kind of approved. More than Chris O'Donnell ever would. Yeah. Chris O'Donnell doesn't read Jewish to me. No. he means more like a robin to me right yes he's got street tough vibes yes tough tough tough no one tougher than robin no it's definitely not that robin no uh kate nelegan uh audition for the blight danner role okay sort of makes sense yeah uh and originally they were going to do two different actors for the mom and they decideer role. Okay. Sort of makes sense. And originally, they were going to do two different actors for the mom

and they decide to do, you'll be the mom and we'll slap some makeup on you. It's good. But a decision that very early on sets a tone of a certain heightened reality that this movie is playing. Yes, because you meet her

in old age makeup before you ever see, well, no, you guys see her young in the very, very beginning. You do, you do. She doesn't speak until she's there in the old age makeup love the beginning and let's just you know of just like nick nolte's doing narration ah growing up on hilton head wherever the fuck this is what

a time sweeping james newton howard score james newton howard who dated barbara streisand off this movie oh nice yeah amazing to think about them like He's like, can I show you some, you know, lay down some tracks for you? Mixing room. Farfaring arrangements. Sorry. The score is so good, it makes her go wild. James Newton Howard did the score. But yeah, no, soaring score.

And he's like, ah, it's so good. Tides are everywhere. And he's like, my mom, who is a real piece of shit, by the way. And you're like, wait, wait a second. My shitty mom put a little crown on my head and deemed me the prince of tides. She's being so nice to me right now, but just you wait. She taught me how to believe in stories. I thought she was great.

Of course, she is bad. I mean, that is the interesting tension of the book and the movie, too. I love my mother. I hate my mother. Oh, I fucking hate you. This narration, this Tony Hallmark movie narration, and then it's like shots fired. Mom and stepdad both suck. Yeah.

But you need that, I think, because you get in like that lushness is like is what the book is. And I think you need to be like, this is a story about childhood and memories and sea islands and tides. And because it immediately sends you to like modern day people with modern day problems. You need that nostalgia to start with. When the decision to like within five minutes show us Kate Milligan in Flashback and reintroduce her like very close together and they're not going for like heavy

prosthetics. Nah, they've just wrinkled her up a little bit. It's like very theatrical. Yeah. Much in the same way that when he goes to visit his sister in the hospital, like it is theatrical makeup. The great Melinda Dillon. Incredible Melinda Dillon. She's really good. Yeah.

She's actually very special. We lost her recently. Did we not? Didn't she pass? Melinda? Fairly recently. We did lose her in January. Wow.

She died at the age of 83. Jesus. Great. One of the great unheralded stars. I think she is a bit of an unheralded star. Even though obviously

she's in like Close Encounters and Slapshot and Absence of Malice and all these big movies. I mean, she's great in Magnolia. So good in Magnolia. Well, she gets overshadowed in this movie because she's absent for so much. This is certainly a movie where I feel like she's more being deployed as like, when we finally meet this character, we kind of need someone who can make that pop for three scenes, essentially. She's the sister. But yeah, so we're in,

come on, the Prince of Tides. We're in, come on, the Prince of Tides. So he, it's basically, it's not Hilton Head.

The town is based on his Buford, which is a real town, but it's called Colleton. Give us the Carolinas context. So basically between Hilton Head and Charleston is where you're talking about. So Hilton Head is not so far off,

but like some pretty remote sea islands. I think if Hilton Head is slightly fancier. Well, Hilton Head and Charleston is where you're talking about. So Hilton Head is not so far off, but like some pretty remote sea islands. I think if Hilton Head is slightly fancier. Well, Hilton Head is like basically all resorts. Like people don't live there, but like Beaufort people live in like all these smaller islands between Hilton Head and Charleston. And then the character, Nolte's character that grows up lives like on the beach on Sullivan's Island, which, so I asked my mom about this, you know, as my like, you know, boomer South Carolina expert.

And she said, people really do just live in beach houses on Sullivan's Island, which I was like, that looks like a vacation house. It looks like a vacation house. Yeah, I mean, they might have just rented a vacation house to film in. But what if a fucking hurricane blows? So the dunes back then were much worse than they are now. They have shored up those dunes since then so that you're not going to get knocked over. But this would have been filmed right around the same time as Hurricane Hugo, which was a big South Carolina hurricane. So, I don't know. But I did have that thought.

Because you see at the end, like, the stairs are getting washed up by the ocean. It's like, dude. And they got that kind of vinegary barbecue. It's mustardy down in South Carolina, right? Mustardy. I don't know. Coastal might get less mustardy. I don't actually know. It's like either tomato or mustard. You kind of have the fights between the two of them. My part of South Carolina is mustard. It's good. It's good.

It's all good. Come down with pimento cheese and barbecue and fried green tomatoes on a sandwich. You can do it. David, let's do the road trip. You guys have been saying it. Let's do the road trip. Bring the child. Bring the child. She throws up in the car for 20 minutes. I'll bring a bucket. You're gonna

need to bring a truck. I will. I've visited you in Durham. You have, yeah. But yeah, I've been to Charleston. You've done the Charleston. And I do it every day. In the mirror.

What's the Charleston again? You know, it's the one where you do this. Oh, wow. But you do a lot of other stuff too. Oh my God, David, you're incredible. You barely know these hands were tattled. Dancing while sitting still? The scene in Mad Men where Pete and Alison Brie

do the Charleston is like one of the greatest TV scenes of all time. That's the episode where he does blackface too, where Roger does blackface. No, he doesn't do blackface. Roger does blackface. Pete is the only character in that scene to register disgust, along with Don.

Everyone else in the scene registers no disgust. It's only Pete and Don. Pete turns to Don, he's like, I think this is going to age poorly. And Don's like, don there's no discuss. It's only Pete and Don. Pete turns to Don. He's like, I think this is going to age poorly. Don's like, don't talk to me, you little fucking weasel.

But, you know, the Sea Islands, it's all the coasts of South Carolina. Yeah, Barrier Islands is what you could call it too.

Yeah, it's incredibly beautiful down there. I think my main thing with this movie is there's not enough of it. Like, it's not really about. You don't like the think my main thing with this movie is there's not enough of it like it's not really about you don't like the rainbow room we got nice stuff the rainbow room is you know like prince street the new yorkie stuff is amazing i feel like we're gonna get to that but like the capturing the feeling of the south carolina coast like you

know i'm attached to it obviously the book is very attached to it but like it doesn't spend as much time there as i think it could and still be telling a story that makes sense and not even like all the weird subplots, but kind of like a sense of place. I think we said this earlier, like she gets New York. She kind of sees that it is pretty to be in the marshes and that's about as far as we can go.

What's another movie set there that might? I mean, because it is so beautiful. The Big Chill is set down there, right? I think it's set in Michigan, but filmed there. I know it's about. The Big Chill is set down there, right? I think it's set in Michigan, but filmed there. I know it's about- The Big Chill famously used the Great Santini House.

Yes. And I know that it's about people who went to University of Michigan because my husband did and he's very proud of it. No, no. It's set in Beaufort, South Carolina. Okay. They went to University of Michigan. Beaufort.

And then the thing that was filming when I was a kid that I remember is Forrest Gump filmed Vietnam scenes in this part of South Carolina. And we were very attached to that and also like all the shrimp boat stuff like you'll see big the 90s were big for shrimp boats in the shrimp there's material about shrimp in Forrest Gump in Forrest Gump the movie?

take you down to that shrimp company after lunch for this yeah so that I feel like you can see those Vietnam scenes in Forrest Gump and kind of get a sense of what it looks like but you don't get the sunsets and the bridges. What's the socioeconomic kind of like status of this area?

Because it's a thing I imagine is expounded on much more greatly in the book. Yeah. But there's this whole thing of the father being this kind of like schemer

who's constantly launching businesses that fail. He's a shrimp book guy but he wants to jump the ladder. Right. Eventually the mom marries the evil rich gentleman. Eventually, the mom marries

the evil rich gentleman. And Nolte clearly has this sort of like resentment of like, you always wanted to like class jump. Yeah. You finally got what you wanted.

Yeah. She wants to get into like the junior league and she wants to get into the cookbook. So there's this like, you know, high society class in Colleton,

the Buford stand-in. Right. And so there's this whole like shrimping industry that doesn't really, I guess it still exists. Like you can still get shrimp from the coast of South Carolina, but likeuford stand-in. Right. And so there's this whole like shrimping industry that doesn't really, I guess it still exists. Like you can still get shrimp from the coast of South Carolina,

but like fishing is global and everything. So it's kind of, there isn't really, no, there's plenty of it, but I don't think there's as many people making their livings

as shrimpers as there were in the 50s when the flashbacks are set. So yeah, they have an island that was like in the family since the Civil War and that's the only thing

they own of value and the father's always investing in these cockamamie schemes and losing money even though he's a good shrimper and he buys a tiger which you see in very briefly see that briefly in the movie maybe it shouldn't be in the movie because you're like i have so many questions about the tiger that's a bigger part of the book big part of the book so the idea the eso tiger which they don't clarify eso's mascot was a tiger yes and i assume that is why when he bought an eso station he got a tiger yeah and it involves a circus and the tiger in a seal off of a derelict circus uh and then in the big climactic horrifying uh home

invasion scene the tiger is what uh stops the bad guys not not a gun. That makes sense. Chekhov's tiger. I understand why it's not in the movie. That would be insane. If in 1991, without CGI to aid her, Barbara Steisand executed a scene in which three sexual assailants who escaped from prison

were mauled to death by a tiger, which must have been a combination of a man in a suit, a puppet, and animatronics. Sounds pretty good. Like that's what it would have been. If that's in the movie, are we bumping it up a star? I think so. If there's a tiger attack sequence

and as you say a dramatic tiger attack sequence during the darkest moment in the movie. Yes. The riski string the darkest moment in the movie. Yes. The riskiest sort of part of the movie. It's like, let's add another layer of risk. I think it would have took me out of the scene.

Oh, wait a second. A man in a tiger suit. Even if they'd had one guy mentioned before, like, and he had a tiger one time, I'm sure that won't come up again. Yeah, I think it would be distracting. Ben, you were saying you watched this movie this morning and it put you in your feelings. Is that fair to say? distracting. Ben, you were saying you watched this movie this morning and it put you in your feelings. Is that fair to say?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. As someone who has therapy tomorrow, you know, and has been going to therapy for a long time now, I had some issues with the portrayal of the patient and therapist relationship. What?

She doesn't feel ethical about this relationship. Well, technically, he's not her patient, I think. Your therapist has never thrown a dictionary this relationship? Well, technically he's not her patient. Your therapist has never thrown a dictionary at you? No, she's never made me bleed. And then taken you to like fucking the finest French bistro? And then made you raise her son? No. She's never done that to me. Your therapist never literally makes you play daddy?

No, she doesn't. What do you know about football? You're like, nothing. And she's like, yeah, but you know, come on. You're a guy. You could coach my son. He's a football coach. Oh, no, you're talking about Ben. It's just the idea. It's like, I don't know,

a real reminder of how over time you start to really unpack your life with someone and how deep and heavy it can get. And that scene in particular is just really traumatic. It is. I'm sort of proud of the movie for not

because apparently the original draft that Pat Conroy wrote basically did not include that. Yeah. It's maybe just like a recollection. Maybe just talking. Right. I do think it's bold. Streisand was like, no, no, no. This is the big thing.

This is the thing that's haunted this entire family. Right. It has to be depicted. It's intense. And you can just tell this movie is built around a big thing.

You know this film is steering towards unpacking some trauma that he's been brushing off the whole time. Right. Something affected him. Right. Like, him. Right.

Like anytime anyone says like, hey, what about this word? And he's like, what are you talking about? I gotta go. I hate words. Hold on. I gotta grab something with my hands.

Do you remember the word? What? I forgot it. Kallen Wall. That's the prison. Yeah. It's like someone says Azkaban. He's like,

get out of here. Yeah, basically. I'm not afraid of Dementors. Serious black. The real trauma, though, is it's not just the event. It's that they can't talk about it. Yeah. Right.

That is so devastating. It's the emotional repression. Right. Yeah. And he has some line of, like, dad comes home, they're eating dinner. The silence was worse than what happened to him. And they've all dealt with it. That crushes me.

Yeah. They've all dealt with it in different ways of not dealing with it. Right. And they've all dealt with it. That crushes me. They've all dealt with it in different ways of not dealing with it. They've all run away with it. Let's just say it was the father is out, three men who escape from prison enter their house, sexually assault him, his mother, his sister.

His brother comes with a shotgun, fights off two of them. His mother stabs the third one. He does nothing. Nolte's character does nothing. Yes. And feels guilt over that. And he's like, I mean,

in the movie, he's like 12, maybe. Yeah. I think in the book he's a little bit older, but yeah, like the self-blaming that, you know,

is not warranted. Well, when he starts recounting, I know we're jumping way ahead in the plot, but we have to sort of talk around this. It's fine. When he first starts recounting it,

he recounts it as if he was just passively standing by and not doing anything to defend them. Yeah. Right. And then he finallys it as if he was just passively standing by and not doing anything to defend them. And then he finally kind of admits that he was assaulted himself. But then as you said, Ben, like, in the wake of that, the mother's

response is, okay, let's bury them in the backyard. So part of the trauma is the kids have to bury these dead bodies. Commit a crime, not call the police. And then we never talk about this to anyone under any circumstances we never talk about it with each other done and it's just like suppress it um you know the movie is like dancing around a thing that big and that first sequence in in the therapy when

he like tells the story and it's horrible but they're not showing a lot of it. And she said, like, why didn't you do anything? And he goes, like, I don't know. And she goes, like, that's a child's answer. And then they start cutting back and placing him in it. That's the moment where, as you said, David, I was like, I'm impressed that they're doing this. I'm impressed that this is part of the movie, that they are somehow towing a line of it not feeling too unbearably... I don't know.

These things are always like, how do you put them on screen without them... Feeling sensitive and upsetting at the same time. I felt like I saw more of that scene than I expected to. Or one. It doesn't feel exploitative exactly, but it feels like you could have stopped three more steps earlier in the process of watching this child be assaulted.

Yes. But it is more emotionally graphic than it is visually graphic. Yeah, for sure. Yes. But the point of this whole movie, let's just say to go all the way back to the beginning, is that he's got this marriage clearly on the fritz with a woman

he doesn't really know how to communicate with anymore. Yes, he doesn't know how to communicate with anyone. He's struggling in the wake of his brother's death. He's lost his job. He's in a bad place in his life. But like a guy whose surface level is living in a Barbra Streisand movie, is beautifully lit.

James Newton Howard scored behind him. He's got a beautiful house on the beach. He's constantly wearing linen. He's running around with his three daughters. Beautiful kids, beautiful wife. Right him he's got a beautiful house on the beach linen he's running around with his three daughters right he's you know six foot twelve right like you know as broad as a boat real blonde but it's like all surface level charm right he's like ah you crazy kids i'm doing great and the guy is truly charming like he pulls off charming don't say specific words to me but he pulls off the charm here much better than he does and i'll do anything well

poor guy yeah uh he is so unbelievably charming yes i think it's it's you it's it's forky was won over yeah she was like people sexiest man alive get out of here but she was like i cannot deny what a force of personality what's what's incredible about this performance is that you're like, I actually, I like this guy a lot. He makes me feel comfortable. I enjoy him. I can tell he's hiding something. Sure.

And I think a lot of actors would overplay the trauma rather than having it pop out at moments, would have them feel burdened and shadowed the whole time in a way where it's like, no, this guy's good

at suppressing it. Yeah. Other than when he's not. Then when he tells the story and then for the first couple of minutes, he's like, I, this guy's good at suppressing it. Yeah. Other than when he's not. Then when he tells the story and then for the first couple of minutes, he's like, I feel okay, actually. I feel great.

I walk around a lot. What were you going to say? Well, the charm is part of the defense. He's making all of these jokes and being light and he talks about that being like the Southern way where you make jokes about it

and you don't talk about it. Is that the Southern way? I've pondered this myself since thinking of that. It really hits that heart and I'm like... I know. I wish I had the confidence

to Pat Connery to be like, this is what they do in the South and this is what they don't do in the South because I don't, I cannot decide that for myself. But I think for this character and many people

who I have known in real life, you make jokes about it, you move on, you like hide it in plain sight and then you get someone like Barbra Streisand to be like, actually,

we're going to unpack this and watching that crumble is part of what makes the performance so great. Like, you have that balance in Nick Nolte. He's very good. He was nominated for an Academy Award. His first.

His first out of just two noms. Three. Three, what's the third? This Affliction Warrior. I need to get the Affliction Nom. I couldn't remember if it was just Coburn. Coburn who out-graveled him in that one. Yeah.

He brought a 10-pound bag of gravel and Coburn brought a truck. I would argue... Yes. I love Coburn who outgraveled him in that one. Yeah. He brought a 10-pound bag of gravel and Coburn brought a truck. I would argue... Yes. I love Coburn. Sure. And I'm very happy he got a career win. Yeah.

That's what that was. Yes. I mean, he is good in Affliction. Yeah. I personally would have given supporting actor that year to Nolte in Thin Red Line. He's so good in Thin Red Line. Nolte in Thin Red Line. He's so good in Thin Red Line.

He is awesome in Thin Red Line. And I think at that point in the 90s it's like well Nolte's like entering his peak period. He's going to keep

stacking up the noms. Yeah. Yeah. And then when he gets his warrior nom that almost feels like a tip of the cap of like you dug yourself

out of the hole. But we're not going to give you a fucking win. I would give he gets my win that year. have won for warrior lose two for warrior who did he lose to probably some fucking asshole where like 2008 i'm seeing here's 11 i lost to some fucking asshole for some piece of dog shit coburn beats harris which is maybe a tough loss for jeffrey russian shakespeare and love great performance or the other two that well thornton and simple Harris, which is maybe a tough loss for Harris. Jeffrey Rush and Shakespeare in Love. Great performance. What are the other two that year?

Well, Thornton in Simple Plan, who's incredible. But had just won an Oscar. Yeah. And Robert Duvall in A Civil Action, who's actually really, really good. Duvall, can't get away from him. But that's a nom performance. I love that movie.

That's a fun movie, but yeah. Supporting actor in The Warrior goes to Plummer for forgiveness, which is another like, Nolte, you're a baby movie, but yeah. Supporting actor in The Warrior goes to Plummer for forgiveness, which is another like, Nolte, they're like, Nolte, you're a baby compared to this man. We have to get an Oscar in his hands. We're definitely not going to have another chance. And we were talking about it.

They did. What do you mean Plummer then went on to get like eight more noms? Oh God, you're right, he did. Yeah. But he already had the Oscar. Yeah, I know, but Plummer actually had tons of runway,

is what I'm saying. He was about to enter his dominant dominant 80s uh no it is weird how those things balance out but yeah nolte's like now overdue well he's very overdue i don't think i just think it's he he lost the oscar to anthony anthony hopkins yes uh and anthony hopkins is in the silence of the lambs and that's a movie I love. And it's a performance I think is quite iconic. I don't know if you would agree. I think that performance is a little sticky. Sticky?

Yeah, I think it's stuck. You think that the culture has some resonance these days? It's had a little bit of resonance. But like, Nolte won LAFCA, Los Angeles Critics, and he was the runner-up for New York and National. Like, he was, I think, for new york and national like he was i think the he's winning in most years yeah this is like a giant performance from a movie star yeah he cries i mean it's laden with oscar clips if you want to be like you know craving about it no i i had the how did

he not win until i looked it up and it's like oh it's one of those years where you don't stand a fucking chance but But like, this is the first time I realized why people maybe were mad about Hopkins as quote-unquote a category fraud. screen time thing. Yeah.

Which I don't think it is, but I just, you know. That argument only comes into play. It's a spread the wealth thing at a certain point, right? Yeah. I love that Nolte and De Niro are nominated in the same category

for, you know, the Cape Fear reunion. That's the other thing. Like, Nolte's also running with the heat of Cape Fear on this nomination, which he's very good in Cape Fear. He is. He's very good in Cape Fear.

Yeah. There's just showier performance in that movie. Are we going to talk about Oscars now or do you want to talk about the movie first? Let's go back to the movie. All right. Get the phone call. He gets the phone call.

Your sister tried to kill herself again. Not just once. Or rather the mother. Yeah, she shows up. Mom, what are you doing phone call. He gets the phone call. Your sister tried to kill herself again. Not just once. Or rather, the mother of the woman. Yeah, she shows up. Mom, what are you doing here? Oh, God, she's coming. I gotta get out of here. No one say that word.

Old Southern lady jacket and pearls. She looks just like my grandmother did in 1991. So, A+. And she's definitely like, no feelings allowed, Mom. Yeah. Like, you know, it's, yeah. The physical transformation is like 10% greater than the quick change they would do backstage in a broadway show in a way i think it's like kind of important for like strice and being

like this is the tone of this movie this is the pitch of this film yeah and she's like look your sister once again has attempted suicide sort of crucial that it's like this has happened before yes uh so that feels like your problem to deal with a huge emergency obviously so he has to go to new york yeah city right to stay in her beautiful apartment in soho right steps from the atlantic office yeah of course you know exactly where that is that shot i mean because it's barbara so i assume she doesn't even need permits she just walks on the streets of new york and people get traffic stops yes holds up up a Grammy just to get her to stop. And it's Princeton Thompson and I'm like,

shit, this is a block from my office. I wonder. And I look, everything is different now except for M&O Deli, which are a million shots outside, which is still there. God bless M&O Deli. They have a great egg and cheese. Everything else is different. The street shots are amazing because there's a kid on a skateboard in the background

of every single shot on the sidewalk in New York City. 1991, baby. There's the one crane shot with the fire hydrant and the kids playing in it. She has a crane shot in Grand Central. I'm like, who let her bring a crane into Grand Central? Barbara. There's also,

when he first got out of the taxi, he's in a traffic jam and there's this lady going, I got a doctor's appointment. I'm like, yes, we're in york uh we are in new york uh and of course his sister lives in every new york sitcom her neighbor is george carlin is her swishy gay friendly neighbor he's always popping by to you know steal some sugar or whatever he's goodness i mean it's love him in this. He showed up and I went like, is this going to not look good? Is this going to feel a little like,

you know, like, you know. Right. But no, he's good. I think he plays this very well. He's got such a wonderful face. Yes. And he really feels like someone who's a little sad, but also like really funny and really clever.

And like, you know what I mean? Like, and he just kind of has the right feel. It's weird how well the sort of like george carlin like bleeding heart cynicism right right right i'm just like i hate the fucking way the world advertising is lying to you right and then when it's like hey george you want to play a role in like a fictional thing it's like okay can I be the conductor for a fictional train maybe with a face on it? But like weirdly his onstage energy, which is damped down in this, right? Definitely.

Transmutes bizarrely well to someone who survived the AIDS crisis. Yeah. This feeling of like, I think like the New York artsy gay community survivor who's had to, like, use humor as a defense mechanism to survive. When he walks into the apartment, he's really nice to Nolte, to Wingo, Tom. Yeah. And then he's like, yeah, your sister.

And it's like, you're like, oh, this isn't some afterthought to him. He cares about her too, but he's very used to darkness. Yes. Yes. Well, and his relationship with George Carlin Oscar nom?

I mean. Go ahead. The first scene I was like how did he not and then he's not in a ton of it. Yeah. But like Nolte's relationship with him because he goes on to be like I'm a southerner I'll you know scratch my armpits and eat berries but like him immediately. Possum breath.

It's about the bare necessities. His relationship with Carlin's character, you're just like, oh, this guy's like, you know, I guess you're like, oh, is he going to be homophobic? And like,

it just kind of gets rid of that really quickly. Where he's like, yeah, he can get along with everybody, including this lovely neighbor. He's, yeah, he's got a cosmopolitan streak in him.

Yeah. Yeah. He likes it. He likes going to men. He likes it. He likes to bitch about it, but he likes it. Love to see him on the C train, you know, just having fun.

Taking up so much space. All the seats. What are you doing, buddy? Yeah, right. He sits in one of the two-seaters. God express to you, Clayton. Fucking bullshit. Who's conducting this train?

My fucking mother. So he goes to see Dr. Susan Lowenstein, who lives in a mahogany fortress. Yes. Somewhere on fucking Park Avenue or whatever. A wood prison. With the coffee bar that pops out of the wall, like the classiest thing I've ever seen. It's a lovely office. It looks like she just has a like acre like lawn and like out her window.

Yeah, she's got like the balcony that you see Horka throw a wedding on. She's in Central Park. Yeah. She's got like a balcony. She's in central park. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. She charges. I Googled the info. She charges three 75 an hour. It's not like it's, she's not even like charging adjusted for inflation.

Like a thousand dollars an hour. It's a lot of money, but you're saying there are far more. You hear about therapists these days who charge $3.75 an hour. It's not like... Well, maybe that's her daily rate in the sense that she's seeing him every single day. Well, that might be true.

Whereas like once a week, maybe she charges a little more. They're also doing 18-hour sessions. She's billing him for... And then she comes to football practice too. She bills for that. She must have a sliding scale because like, you know, Tom's sister, Savannah,

you know, she's a poet who lives in like a soho one bedroom like i mean in 1991 like i can't imagine she's flush right like it's sort of surprising that she's right nolte comes in sees the scene actually says like i got a sign to her or something right like i took up this relatively recently yeah there's some sort of contrivance like that to explain why she wouldn't know much. But Nolte sees her husband walking out, not knowing it's her husband,

and goes like, oh, okay, shrink to the stars. Like, has this attitude of her being this sort of fancy luxury kind of. Yeah.

I'm sure she should see some fancy clients. Yeah. In an office like that, you got it. Who's fancy in 1981? This is the thing I want to dig into

a little bit, okay? Because, like, the reframing of this being, taking this book and turning it so much into the Lowenstein love story, a movie that ends with him repeating her name over and over again. Yes. Which The Simpsons parodied,

and when I was a kid, I was like, well, this is a parody. And then you watch the movie, and you're like, oh no, they just did the movie. They just did the thing. Yeah. Much like Angela Bassett, they just did the thing. They just did. thing. Yeah. Much like Angela Bassett, they just did the thing.

They just did. Simpsons also had the iconic Cape Fear parody. They really had the 1991 Oscars locked down. You're right. Well, because Nolte was on the writing staff that year.

I got an idea. Yeah. Gamble, Pross, Nolte. He actually just kept leaving scripts around by mistake. He was pitching others. Homer, she's back. Homer, she go to space.

Which she did. Barney buys a snowplow. He's the plow king. What's your point about Lowenstein? Well, okay. So it's like, right. There's the view of like, she heard there was a book

with a beautiful Jewish woman in it and said, I must adapt this and she must become the co-lead. although she's very much the secondary lead yes yeah the other way of thinking about this is like does this movie really kind of is this a more normalizing view of therapy than is happening in any other like kind of big budget Hollywood film. I don't know. Especially for a movie that is about like a tough man. Yeah. That allows him to like break down and be sensitive in a

way. It's not as sensitive as say in Analyze This, which is of course the apex of sensitivity. But that comes later. Sopranos comes later. No, no. I was joking about Analyze This. I'm trying to think you're, it's a good point. I assume the 80s is where you start to see talk therapy more regularly beyond like a woody allen kind of what i'm saying when you move it outside of like the neurotics right and it happening in like a

comedic sphere right yeah or happening with people who are just like movies about mental illness ordinary people is a pretty crucial therapy yeah okay no, no. Huge. Which sort of has a similar tone to this of like, let's... But I think that's also a movie that's like... In a room. Right.

I think that's a movie where it's like, this is a problem movie. This is about like... The trauma is on the surface from the beginning of that movie, whereas this is like,

you have to break this guy down. And it's about a kid as opposed to like, big, strong, brawny, football-playing adult. Ben, what do you want to say? What's with the laying down stuff? Oh, you mean like

in a classic Freudian lay on the couch? Because they reference it in this movie. You've seen it a million times it's such a trope. I've never once ever laid down in therapy.

I can't imagine. I couldn't imagine too. It'd be so weird. The classic thing was that you didn't even look at your psychiatrist. The psychiatrist was sitting next to you, but you couldn't see them because

you're staring into space. That's the logic behind it, is that people are like, I'd rather just stare at the ceiling because I'll feel more comfortable rather than admitting this stuff while staring someone in the eyes. But to me, that's the harder thing to process. But I think it's also some people are like, you cannot project onto me. We are not going

to have a, you know, relationship that's like friends. We're not going to have an ordinary people moment. Right. It's going to be the more cold, like analytical, like you will pour your psyche out to me and I will then be like, my analysis is you don't like your mother. That'll be one million dollars to do an 80s joke about therapy. Yes. That is what the answer in Prince of Tides, though. He doesn't like his mother.

Ordinary people is obviously huge. Mom or dad, it's one or the other. I think the difference, though, is that, yes, it's like, it's a kid, it's someone who's new to movies.

You're not, like, playing with someone's established movie star persona in the same way, right? It's like a more smaller, intimate, quieter film, even though it was obviously a big, big deal.

Yeah. But it's also like, it's foregrounding the problem. Whereas this movie does the sideways thing of like, his sister's got problems. Here's this guy who seems so charming and put together. He's going to talk to her therapist. I'm not a patient.

I'm not a patient. Right. I'm just here to talk about my sister. It's never official. It's all, I'm here to help. Right. Yeah.

It's sort of like tricks you, the audience, into seeing like, oh, maybe people who think they don't need therapy could benefit from therapy. But it's also tricking Lowenstein within the movie to be more personal with him and open up with him and maybe, you know, beat him with a dictionary if he's being annoying. Yeah. You know, sleep with him when the moment's right. Sleep with him, you know, upstatestate maybe a picnicky kind of sex thing some good

suits involved I think it's a key men having feelings movie yeah and I just think there's something so radical about

having Nick Nolte go through this which she knows which is what she's doing I mean to the point that it's almost cliched now

you know like where you're like ah the big strong man can have feelings too but at the time i'm sure it felt pretty radical like this happens so goodwill hunting can happen yes yeah yes um this is a better movie that's a great example is that controversial interesting i i'm not a huge fan of goodwill i like goodwill hunting a lot i mean i like i look goodwill hunting as a big old ball of cheese for me to have a great time snacking on.

I just have never thought that it's like a profound movie. No, but I think it's like kind of excellent old school Hollywood. Exactly. Even though it was made in the middle of the world. You can tell he's a genius because he writes math on the wall. I just want Robin Williams' character to be my friend.

Yeah. He's very good. Very good. I think about that performance a lot. You found Robin Williams likable on screen? I got to see about a girl, David. And I'm going to leave the episode. It has like 18 lines like that, which I like.

I'm like, that's a movie where if you describe it, it sounds so bonkers. And when I watch it, I totally fall under its spell. And I don't question it. I know it's become sort of more acceptable to go like fucking Good Will Hunting. I never liked it. Yeah, I think it was kind of acceptable at the time. And then, you know, everyone who loved it when it came out sort of got older and was like, no, we love Good Will Hunting. And now maybe.

And the Ben and Matt, like they've gone up and down so many times. What were you about to say about it, Katie? What was I about to say about it? Oh, when you hear about what the original script was, where you're just like, Jesus, why is this a good movie? Like, how did they manage

to pull something out from what Ben and Matt originally wrote? Do you know that? No. That their movie was about, like, and then the CIA recruits him? There was, like,

a whole fourth act that was, like, an act. Because they thought, like, it needed to have a spy thriller. Oh, that's so dumb. And they showed it to people and they were like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Just have the kids stay in therapy. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how that actually turned into such a good movie. Totally. I think Gus Van Sant kind of comes in and is just like, let's steer this in the other direction. That's why people along thought that, you know, they got help or whatever, you know, William Goldman.

But that's what Goldman said. Goldman said, I didn't rewrite it. I just told them, fucking drop all that shit. But like, Prince of Tides I watch and i never stop thinking about how bonkers it is yeah pretty crazy there's so much in the soup in prince of tides whereas like woodwell hunting for all its flaws you're like it's it's getting you from a to b right good precise it's a lot i fall under the spell what apples and And how do you like them? On a plate? Sliced?

Oh, wow. In a salad? Fancy Sims over here slicing up his apples. I do like to cut up an apple, but you know why? It's not fanciness. I just like to sort of dole out the apple. Be like, ooh, another little slice for me. I like to feel it in my hand. Crunch, crunch, crunch.

Okay. But you slice it for your daughter, too? I do slice it for my hand. Crunch, crunch, crunch. Okay. But you slice them for your daughter too? I do slice them for my daughter. Apple, apple. Yeah, when I'm slicing apples for kids, it's like, oh, fine, I get some too. Well, that's true. And also I slice the skins off

and then I just eat the skins. Because she doesn't want the skin. Eat the skins. Well, yeah. Come on. We're doing a lot in our session here today, David. David, do you want to lay down and we want to dig into that a little bit more? One Sims, three Lowensteins.

Can I lay down and maybe close my eyes and have a blanket over me and maybe the room's really dark and I sort of fall asleep? Oh, you just want to take a nap. If I do talk therapy, but then I'm just like, I got plenty to say. After 45 minutes, you're just like, all right, well plenty to say you know after 45 minutes he's like all right well you gotta go you slept so they start doing these non-sessions yeah they fight he's like well let me ask you a question yeah she's married to a concert concert violinist who's not

very nice to her right is he based on somebody is there someone i should know that like i would recognize a famous violinist walking out of someone's office. No, but I think it's more that in 1991, there were still various famous classical musicians. There's not a lot of them anymore. I think it was like Pavarotti maybe? No, but you're like, is he like the Yo-Yo Ma of

violin? Okay. You know? Yeah. Is he like the Baryshnikov of violin or something? Yeah. You know, like Yitzhak Perlman, right? I mean. I'd recognize Yitzhak Perlman if I saw him. Sure. He'd probably have a fucking violin under his chin.

A certain, but right. Early 90s, there were still like caviar celebrities. The idea that he, Nolte knows who he is, is not implausible to me in 1991. Right. It would feel like more of a stretch now, maybe. Yes. But he's like, ah, you ain't dating this guy. Oh, yeah.

I know him. It's, again, a way to make him seem like a special educated person. Sure. He's got this like hiccup ringing. Yeah. But I'm sure how the things stack. Don't try. Just explore the various strands.

Go along with the tide. I don't think you can't lay this out really easily you know i mean the various plots are him and lowenstein uh exploring his trauma he's helping his sister and then they fuck like it's very like one two three like they do not get together until the last act so that's very very well there's the renata halpern segment of it which is very strange they like you know reveal she's written these books under a pseudonym and he's like yeah and he's horrified you can't believe this would ever happen some act of disassociation perhaps yeah it's just a weird like you think they've cracked the code but like it doesn't really matter that she might have revealed their dark secret i think

that's really what that is. Sure. Yeah, because the children's book he finds is, like, kind of inspired by the dark secret. Is that a bigger part of the book? Kind of. But the whole time it's happening, you're like, wow, why are we going? It's another way for the book to kind of be like, we're building up to a thing. And in the movie, Nolte's performance gets you so much of that, which actually works really well. You don't need it kind of seeded.

Yeah. And you also, I mean, there's that's like, she's like, yeah, your sister wrote something about like three black dogs. And I was like, I don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about something else. I hate the number three.

Did you see JFK? You think Stone's a crackpot? And he's just like changing the subject. Beauty and the Beast, I see it's the beginning of a Disney renaissance. A golden age for the studio. Can LA law keep its streak up at the heavies i'm trying to think of 1991 go ahead sorry there's a neat filmmaking thing that she does with the flashbacks because like

so much of him being like well then there is this time that my dad ate dog food and then there was this time and then the rich man beat hit me in the face then my mom married him and they link it she links it to things that are happening in the present with him cooking food or with him going to his kid's birthday party that I think works really nicely because all those flashbacks would feel really disjointed unless she found that filmmaking way around it. Yes. Yeah.

I agree with that. Yeah. Uh, the dog food scene is pretty wild. It's wild to just like toss that in as a scene, but I guess that's the magic of the Prince of Tides. Yeah. That for her to just like toss that in as a scene. But I guess that's the magic of the Prince of Tides. Yeah, that complains that the food sucks. So she goes in and-

What's the dish that she made? Hash and rice. Like barbecue. Like, you know, shredded pork and rice, basically. That sounds great. I know. It would be good if it weren't dog food. Maybe it would be good with dog food.

I don't know. I think that dog food looks good. Is that insane? She puts the oyster shirr. She puts the onions in it. I mean, she's sauteing it. I know. I don't know. I think that dog food looks good. Is that insane? We're so sure she puts onions in it. I mean, she's so tasty. I know. I'm just like, I'm kind of hungry. The flashbacks are few and far between.

It's dog food. It's really the assault and then the rich guy. Is there anything else major? Is that the order, really? Yeah, the rich guy's late. He may be, I can't remember. But he goes, so the rich guy leads to him then reun major? Is that the order, really? Yeah, the rich guy's late. He may be, I can't remember. Well, no, but he goes, so the rich guy leads to him

then reuniting with his mother in the present day. You have Kate Nelligan back in the makeup. Yes, that's true. Where there's the giant oil painting of her that's now in the house. But I think when he's reunited with her,

he is now told the story to- Or he's telling her he's gonna tell the story, I think. Yes, that's him. And then the next session- It's like halfway through telling the story. You're building up to that point, for sure. There's the Kate Nelligan flashback

where she tells him that he's her favorite son. Yes. And then the reveal is that she said that same thing to all of the kids. The kid in that flashback

has such a like That's good parenting. He has such an early 90s haircut in that scene. He has like really spiky in the front. It's like, Barbara,

why'd you let that one go by? He looks like one of Tim the Toolman Taylor's kids. I was going to say. He's got a home improvement haircut. But I thought that her return scene in that fancy house, I thought was pretty good.

It is good. Yeah. It's just, it's so like Griffin's saying, like stagey, theatery, like mom with no feelings. Who's like, well, drink your tea. I don't want to talk about any of that, you know? And her husband just being like, yeah, we make money here in the money factory i don't know who makes it or where it goes i don't care

to know we got a long history of money making fame like that no no offense to the south but uh the thing in the south where they're like ah we have a long tradition i'm like you don't have any fucking laundry you've been here like a hundred years you cunts all right england david that's what i'm saying you came over from england oh we've always done this i think you've done this for like five minutes fucking built one big house you idiots i've never seen anyone serve iced tea out of that big like silver pot that she's serving out like a hat on a hat that's like what's the richest vessel that sweet tea i'm trying to think of like rich people I've seen with tea I still don't think they've done that

We here in this family we have a long tradition of minting NFTs Been doing it for a long time This crypto mine's been running since 2019 And then so you have some side plots Which are Well mostly it's Jason Gold Who is a surly Only child Of the Lowenstein.

I'm coming to this and I'm putting knowledge and context on this, right? Yes. Knowing that. Jason Gould was forcibly outed, I think, by a newspaper or tabloids. Yes. In 1991. Oh, wow. When this film came out.

And knowing that was a big deal right and i'm watching these scenes of him being like please teach me how to play football right and i am projecting initially he's like i don't care i don't want to learn right but then that right that attitude right i'm projecting onto this a childhood of many older men trying to teach me to play sports so i would be picked on less. Right. And then instead you're like, well, this guy's dad was fucking Elliot Gould. Right.

Yeah, but okay, go ahead. No, no, I'm saying my childhood. Oh, your childhood. Like the scenes where I'm watching Jason Gould and Nick Nolte run football. I'm like, this reminds me of most of my childhood of people just trying to teach me

how to catch a ball. So I would get picked on less. Me being like, I don't care. I want to move to the point in my life where I don't have to do this anymore and knowing that he is gay I was just like this feels like some weird thing of like the mom hiring a

tough man to toughen up her son and then this is me obviously putting my own shit on it and then like the reveal that it is oh he is a good violinist his parents want him to be a sophisticated artist or his dad does at least it's just really funny because this is the reverse plot exactly usually it's like

oh i wish i could go to tanglewood my true you know passion is the arts the dad's like no son you're a tight end okay you're going back to old miss with me. I just came to it being like, this is like an imposition. It's just so funny that this drone crap being like, no, he's off to tangle. It's off to tangle. Don't tell my dad, but I want to be tough.

Is what this plot line is. Nolte seems like a great football coach. Unbelievable. I mean, if he was barking at me, I would be into it. Just knocking the kid down in the park every day. Which, you know, it's kind of like the big catharsis of this movie is him being like,

you should coach again. Yes. And you'll be happy if you coach again. He's teaching literature. Yeah. But no, I mean, he's, throughout this movie,

he's a good parent. Like, in that kind of way of like, he's clearly permissive and he has this kind of like you know kids are kids like they're gonna want to do fun dad and she has to do bath time like she has to be the cop that's for sure but still like when gould is giving him guff he doesn't take it personally he knows this is a teenager he can tell he fucking one look at him he's clearly 15 years old and like uh and you know he's just like that's okay that's what kids are supposed to do that's what teenagers are supposed to do and you're like he's he's clearly not sublimated his trauma into like bad parenting you know what i mean like he's a very accepting parent and he really wants to not be like his dad right yeah um which is succeeding too i mean there's the scene on the boat it's

really good where he's trying to connect with his dad and his dad's like. Yeah. Which he's succeeding to. I mean, there's the scene on the boat. It's really good where he's trying to connect with his dad and his dad's like, look, the Braves beat the Dodgers or whatever. He says the girls

love their granddad. Right. And his response is, Braves beat the Dodgers. Which, you know, good for them. Right. We do have to.

Even now having. We have no choice but to stand the Braves. Even now having grandchildren who like. They still call the Braves. They are. They are.

It's the most embarrassing team in baseball. Go ahead. No, like even now that he's like, it feels like his demons grandchildren who like all the braves they are the most embarrassing team in baseball oh go ahead no like even now that he's like it feels like his demons have settled a bit and the granddaughters love him unconditionally and he doesn't have the weight of actually being a parent he still can't engage with them yeah yeah that's uh brad sullivan by the way who is like he's like the the goon in slapshot yes he's he's a gangster in the sting he's a mobster in who is like, he's like the goon in Slapshot. Yes. He's a gangster in The Sting.

He's a mobster in The Untouchables. He's great face. Yes. Great playing like a nasty guy. Yeah. That's another thing that feels like with the focus on the romance, like the dad is not really present in the movie at all. No.

He's a big jerk. Yeah. Who, yeah, is, you know, right. Not seen until this fancy party near the end. Fucking, you know, Nolte puts on his seersucker suit or whatever oh I meant I meant Tom's dad but yes both him and Bernard Woodruff yeah sure but yeah no Woodruff

you know the Jerome Krabby Krabby? Krabbe? not knowing what the trauma was at the center of the story I was like it's got to be something with the dad they're holding the dad back for the big thing you assume you're right you assume it's got to be something with the dad. Yeah, right. They're holding the dad back for the big thing. Yeah, you assume, you're right.

You assume it's going to be like, you don't understand, my dad was actually like, you know, abusing the family. And instead it's like, no, he was actually not even part of this.

He didn't know. He never knew. Yeah. Yeah. So do people have dinner parties like this in New York or did they in 1991? I've had one of these.

I mean, look, I lived in New York for a long time. I always have a two million Stradivarius. I kept waiting for someone to invite me to one of these parties and I never did and I don't know what I did wrong. You always have to invite your mistress. And have her play the piano wearing the tightest dress possible.

I don't insist on inviting my mistress, but someone has to invite a mistress. I just need there to be tension. You just need there to be, ooh, the potentials. And don't ignore the wife in fact note her call her out across a very long table like the longest table you can find his mistress and you know strisand is bringing nolte i think kind of as a sort of like you know a reverse card and you know yeah because she reveals to him at that party he's like yeah i

think he's fucking the piano player. You didn't like that, Ben? No, I loved it. Yeah, great. All my metaphors now will be Uno related. Really good. But, and Nolte, yeah, they're not together yet. Right.

Because Nolte reveals to Lowenstein, I'm mixing character and real actor. You're fine. But he reveals to her that Blythe Danner's having an affair before she reveals that she's married to... Before she reveals that she's married.

And then she only later reveals that she is suspicious of his affair. So he thinks there's a flirtation going on, then finds out she's married, then finds out who it is,

then gets invited to this party. And then Lowenstein is finally like, he's fucking the penis. Yeah. Right. And you see her, there finally like, he's fucking the penis. Yeah. Right. And you see her,

there's a shot of her beforehand where she's like looking, like gazing at the husband and you're like, why are we looking at her? And you're like, aha, Barbara knows. And then finally like,

I mean, yes, there's the possum breath cocksucker scene. But like finally, like two hours in, maybe an hour 50. Yeah. Like it's deep into the film.

Yeah. They consummate their affair yeah and i think i realized later like it's like two months of time passes yeah it's like a summer like this isn't like a hot weekend like one 15 minute montage right of him of them going upstate to her other perfect house like a two month lost weekend uh Right. Where he's clearly like, maybe I just stay here. My sister's feeling better. You know, she's like, you know, back in her house. But maybe I just, you know. There's the scene where he's gone back

for his daughter's birthdays. Where he's sort of like testing out the structure. Sleeping on the couch. Right. You know, obviously you know, the whole time Forky and I are like, he's going to go back because he has the kids. If he didn't have the kids like maybe who knows what's his name Cleveland wants to marry her

is his name Cleveland am I wrong about this he's got some stupid name Don Cleveland god damn it that's the city in Ohio who comes to me but no but she's like he wants to marry me what do you think

why are you asking me this question But no, but she's like, he wants to marry me. What do you think? Why are you asking me this question? But right. Didn't you? Don't you agree? Like, there's no way he's leaving the kids. I thought I didn't know. He's going to end up with Louie.

I kind of did. Wow. I was. I felt he was like, and this is actually fun. She was like, he's the prince of tides. He's going back. There are tides in New York. I know that. But she was like, he's the prince of tides. He's going back. There are tides in New York, David. We established this.

I know that, but she was like, he's tide washed on it, but he's tiding back. You're probably right. You know, I mean, again, if it was just Danner, I feel like we just get a call like, hey, Hurricane blew her away. He's like, ah, great. Okay, come on, Babs. Let's go to the Rainbow Room. The reason I thought he might stay there is because Danner's the one pushing him away. It's not like, oh, he's choosing to abandon his kids. But then, of course, the other thing is obviously he,

she has, Lowenstein has helped him learn how to talk about himself. That is clearly the big impediment in his marriage, we're told. So now he can go back and they get a perfect marriage. Tell him how to be a better man. And he can see his three cute kids. And in the book, he doesn't do that trip back. Like the Black Danner character is like. Yeah. And in the book, he doesn't do that trip back. Like that,

the character is like not, is like absent for the most of the book. So like it kind of tips the hand in the movie where you're like, oh, okay, I see these cute kids. I see their house. In the book. Does he say like,

you know, he had a nice wife. She kind of a Gwyneth Paltrow's mom vibe. She's from a mill town in South Carolina in the book. And again, I feel like Blythe Danner is really like jetting in from another planet compared to that. She's beautiful.

So good with these kids. And on the Criterion disc, there's like a lot of rehearsal footage of him with the kids because she just worked a lot on like they have to be comfortable.

It's all like him throwing them around. They're always wrestling. It's just so funny to imagine James L. Brooks watching this and being like, yes, you could build an entire movie out of Nick Nolte exclusively talking. Those kids have the best Southern accents in the movie.

I assume they're just like local Tristan kids. Yes. The audition tapes are really funny, too, because it's like Streisand interviewing them and mostly just like asking questions about their life. And Streisand's just like when she's trying to relate to them and these kids obviously don't know who she is and they're like,

some of the only instances you imagine where she's able to communicate with someone who's not like too enamored with her or intimidated by her. But she also has like no modern references

because she's lived in a palace for 15 years. What's interesting is like, she's talking to these kids like, you hear her revert back to like Brooklyn girl. Yeah. Where she's like so what do you do? What do you do when you go to the corner? What do you eat for lunch? You play in stickball?

Yeah. Oh Barbara Streisand I wish I could play stickball with Barbara Streisand. She'd probably kick your ass. You think she plays pickleball? Now? Yeah. What's your favorite chili cart in New York City? Where do you go to get your chili what street do you go to get a bowl but they are bowls they're not hot dogs they're actual bowls

of chili that they get from that chili i've never seen that before in my life i don't think that's a thing i mean it may have been more of it there was i i was also a little baffled especially because i was drinking in the soho verisimileitude. I was loving it. Yeah. And then somebody's like, this is the worst chili. And I'm like, well, why'd you get chili? It's a fucking hot dog. It's weird. It's very weird. It looked bad. Yes.

Wait, speaking of the Soho Verisimilitude, though, the party that George Carlin has at his apartment is so delightful with all of those like boho people. She shows up to wearing white on white on white. Yeah. White pantyhose. I would not personally go to a downtown party in like the early night. In a skirt suit?

Dressed like fucking Moon Knight. All right. Thank you. I would give you 10 comedy points, but the points changed midway through me flipping. Oh, they morphed. They turned into an Egyptian coin. Oh, no.

I can't believe I watched every episode Oh, no. I can't believe I watched every episode of Moon Knight. I can't believe Moon Knight came up in this episode. The moon makes the tides go. Yeah.

That just made this a five-star episode, that show. The Prince of Tides and the Knight of Moons. Oh, man. That tamer. So, Loewenstein

is very, obviously, crucial to this last part, this affair sequence, and the upstate and all that. But I do feel like she at a certain point, she's kind of coming off as maybe, you know, just I'm just kind of like, Loie, you're not going to win

in this, right? Like you're kind of you're in you're falling for a guy who's probably going to get tidied away and feeling for her. Well, this is the other thing when you go back to this real sad when you go the Streisturas thing, right? Her three leading men in the films that she directed.

If we count stars born into this. I was talking about this before. Chris Christopherson. Well, then we do four. Do Mandy Patinkin? That's what I'm starting with Chris Christopherson. Throw Bridges in, though. You said three.

Let's do four. Yeah, start with Chris. No, I'm doing all four. Yeah, you said three. Chris Christopherson. I'm saying the three she directed, I'm holding is born in chris christopherson mandy patenkin nick nolte yeah jeff bridges jeff bridges is like a petite and live man compared to those three fire trucks but they're all solid and they are a lot of chest hair and then four guys arguably at their physical peak sure

who were just like astonishingly good looking right but tinkin obviously never left his physical peak but yes yes no they're really good looking but they're different they're men they're different they're like real kind of like right they're not all the same yeah yeah but like they're the kind of guy you rest your head on yes and you sleep on top of that big old chest. You sit in his lap in a chair with your leg warmers on by the fire. Yeah, normal. But all four of those movies

have a lot of the Barbara and could you believe they found me beautiful thing. Right? Yeah, sure. Where there's this point in this section of the movie where it feels it shifts a little bit to like this sort of fairy tale. Yes.

Like she's unlocked his trauma and now he's just perfect. She's also and the reward is what a dream that this man felt for me. Right.

Her emotional aspect comes in way more in that part of it. Right. She's been basically absent before that. Breaking her rules as well obviously opening up to him

and you know she's supposed to be But she's gifted the kind of unconditional love she does not get from her husband. The attention, the ear, the compassion, the passion, all of that, you know? It's a big upgrade.

Yeah. But it's doomed. The tides call him away. Yes. They have one last, you know, $35,000 evening at the Rainbow Room. Like, they rent out the whole Rainbow Room. The entire, and there's a full band there? At least, like, a good number of musicians. Rainbow Room? Even to get, like, a coffee. Like, they rent out the whole Rainbow Room. The entire, and there's a full band there? I've never been to the fucking Rainbow Room. Even to get, like, a coffee.

Like, you know, come on. It's a wild goodbye. Have you been to the Rainbow Room? No. Lauren never took you? Lauren never took me. I don't know. I went up there once.

They did, like, a junket or some, like, lunch or something. Like, a Peggy Siegel thing way back in the day. And, you know, they call it the Rainbow Room because they have these, like, prisms up hanging.

Why hasn't Streisand done a Peggy Siegel biopic? Go ahead. Holy shit. Peggy Siegel and the notorious Oscar. Is, uh... Publicist. Is Cirque the restaurant in LA?

Well, sure. That's a restaurant in LA. Is that what I'm thinking of? The Cirque? Is Cirque here, too? I mean, there is. Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry.

There's one in Vegas. I'm sorry. It's the fucking Ivy. Well, sure. The Ivy. Oh, sure. The Ivy is where Lorne Michaels takes everyone in L.A. for dinner. And when we were doing the Mulaney pilot, I'll tell the story very quickly.

We were doing the Mulaney pilot. He took the whole cast out to dinner. And I was just like, this is wild. I'm at like a dinner with Lauren Michaels and Elliot Gould and Martin Short and everyone at the Ivy. This feels like Hollywood or whatever. And I like didn't think about it at all for like 10 years. Right. And then another friend of mine met Lorne Michaels and said like and I think, you know, my friend Griffin, he was on the Mulaney pilot. And Lorne Michaels first comment was apparently he ordered French toast for dinner. I took him to dinner at the Ivy and he ordered French toast for dinner.

And I have no memory of this. But it's believable. It tracks, but it's weird because it doesn't. I don't, I could see it happening, but I don't feel like I would often make that choice. But it does feel like something that would ping for Lorne. Ping for Lorne. That's his entire association with me for the rest of time. Strategically, though, you've made quite an impression. That's true. It's a power move in that sense. That's his entire association with me for the rest of time. Strategically, though, you made quite an impression.

I mean, that's true. It's a power move in that sense. That is very true. Do you think it was on the menu? Or are you like, I know it's not here, but do you guys have French toast? I bet you were like. Well, if you ordered a French toast off menu, that is a huge power move. I think he said, well, do you still do the breakfast stuff?

I'm not an all-day breakfast guy. I usually like breakfast in the morning. It's not like that's my thing There is no It is literally impossible That there is French toast on a dinner menu Okay well they have French toast On their breakfast menu

Of course It's $31 and it comes with a fig apricot Well Lauren was picking up the bill I wasn't looking at the fucking price Fig apricot French toast with Sorry fig apricot with pecan brioche French toast What's a fig apricot? Or is it fig apricot with pecan brioche french toast what's a fig apricot or like jelly probably i don't fucking know weird hybrid there's also a really famous restaurant called the ivy in london okay uh that's also a celebrity haunt not related

to the la it's like exists for 100 years and i when i was a teenager once i walked up to it and i asked the bouncer if they did take out and he said, fuck off. Wow. Like Brian Cox was right there. It was Logan. I was one of my few examples of being what the British would call a cheeky bugger. Yeah. Anyway, Prince of Tides. Can we just

confirm the dinner menu, please? It's not on the dinner menu. Thank you. It's not. You're saying it tracks. It tracks in the sense that I would do something like that. Not just that, but Griffin, we're talking about how many years ago at this point? Ten. So, you know, I would say your tastes have somewhat matured since then. Sure.

I think ten years ago, Griffin, might be a little more like, eh, is this dipped in syrup? I mean, although you were. You could handle yourself at an Ivy in 2012 or whatever. Yeah, I think it was exactly 10 years ago. The syrup must have been icy cold because it was in the refrigerator because breakfast service had been done. It was late. It was a late dinner.

Oh, but if it was like late night menu breakfast, that makes like if you're eating at midnight. It was so late. It was 5 a.m. Let's go to Lauren's office fucking right now. That guy ordered French toast. I just love that being his immediate response. Subject line. Yeah.

I was expecting the response was going to be, I don't remember. That name doesn't ring a bell. And instead is, I have never forgotten. It has haunted me. I picked up the bill and he ordered french toast for dinner at the ivy i just think we now have to go to one of the fancy restaurants in new york city that does do breakfast though because we need it to be at least a concept uh-huh and then at dinner make the power move of being like can we order french toast what happens if we do that that's it that's

our next uh power move patreon yeah we go to fucking you know per se and we're like do you have French toast though what else do we have to talk about well their breakup at the end where she really gets to pull out all the big stops

where she's you know talking about how she doesn't want him to go like it's beautiful I've never seen the way we were but I feel like that's like the famous ending of the way we were too

where they're standing out on a street corner yeah exactly a good movie it really pulls it out at the end where even if you weren't that invested in the relationship I were too where they're standing out on a street corner and being like yeah exactly a good movie it really pulls it out at the end where even if you weren't that invested in the relationship

I feel like her heartbreak is really she doesn't get the Oscar nom do you think she deserved a grift she kind of got you're talking for actress or for director

we'll talk about director thank you did this film direct itself right but actress she doesn't get the nom and I think she kind of got she was actually the target of ridicule

For her performance Yes Maybe ridicule is too strong but like everyone was kind of like Well the movie Nolte is amazing And it's such an interesting movie but like You know Dr. Lowenstein You know like that So do you think she even had a shot at an Oscar nom

Because it got a bunch of other Oscar noms Yes I mean, I assume she got the Globe nom for this. They didn't give her a Globe acting nom? They did not. Wow.

Rude little fuckers. This is the year that Geena Davis and Susan Sarandon get in for Thelma and Louise. Correct. Like, that's tough. Like, that's a lot of space

in Best Actress. The Oscar list is those two, Geena and Susan, Jodie Foster for Silence of the Lambs. Good performance. Laura Dern for Rambling Rose,

which is a very big performance. She sings and stuff. And Bette Midler for The Boys, which is a very big performance. She sings and stuff. Let's see what happens. Bette versus Barbara. That's wild.

Fierce. The Globes, obviously, put, they put, let me see. Prince of Tides in comedy? No. Comedy or musical? They do, no. Yeah, they put B let me see prince of tides in comedy no comedy musical uh they do i know yeah

they put bet in comedy or musical but everyone else i just named is in drama and then annette benning gets the nom for bugsy as the fifth wild and who were their other comedy nominees ellen barkin and switch wow of course of course the The Adam Smith remote control movie. The Blake Edwards. No, that's the... Jimmy Smith's... No, it's... Who plays the man? It is Jimmy Smith. Jimmy Smith plays her love interest. A man wakes up in Ellen Barkin's body

and then falls in love with Jimmy Smith. Oh, fuck. I think is the premise of that movie. Oh, sure. Tony Roberts, maybe? I don't know. I don't know. Ellen Barkin and Switch, Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes, Michelle Pfeiffer in Frankie and Johnny, which was previously mentioned, and a great nom,

Angelica Houston in The Addams Family. Wow. Oh, yeah. Kathy Bates for Fried Green Tomatoes is also great because Tandy gets in the Oscars and you're like, eh, okay.

Well, that was just a Miss Daisy after wash. Halo thing. But after wash, that's not halo thing. But after wash, that's not a word. But do we have to, we have to talk box office and Oscars,

but is there anything left in the Prince of Tides we need to mention? No, I think Way We Were is an analog for what she's trying to replicate here to a degree

while doing other things. I think she knows that's a thing she can sell that makes this movie accessible in a mainstream way. And it sends you out with a big feeling. I do feel like

their relationship comes so late and is wrapped up so quickly because it's just kind of like at the rainbow room. He's like, by the way, I haven't told you her four conversations I've had with Black Dan are over the phone. You know, like the movie's working at a very specific pace of things being like dealt out one bit of information at a time.

Yeah. And then suddenly, as you said, there's like this two month lost weekend. That's compressed. And then you find out like, oh, by the way, he's been reigniting a thing over here. I was a little stunned when I like hit the status button on my remote and went like, oh, this thing's five minutes away from ending. Yeah.

Right. But you both are kind of like, this thing needs to end and how could it possibly end though? Yeah. We're just starting a new tale here. Right. Maybe she should have bifurcated it.

Two part Prince of Tides. The Prince. Right. Part two of Tides. That's definitely. Tides go in, Tides go outides that's how you do it yeah you call one movie tie go in and you all the call the high tide low tide that's pretty good pretty good then you got time for the tiger then you could fit the tiger in the prince of tigers

exactly could have a whole sequence where jason gould you know plays varsity basketball football whatever it comes to mma fight the toughest man in the world who hates playing that's a seed where Jason Gould, you know, plays varsity basketball, football, whatever. He becomes an MMA fighter. The toughest man in the world who hates playing music. Well, you do that to Seed Warrior, too. I think that moment's really nice when he makes him play and Nolte says, if I could play like that, I'd never pick up a football in my life.

And Gould says, why do I have to choose? I love that scene. As absurd as it is, just as a New Yorker to watch people play violin in front of a train station platform where you're like, get out of the way! It's such a lovely... Gotta get to Ron Conklin, though.

They have a genuinely lovely relationship in this movie, as ridiculous as that plot is. No, once again, I was like, I was ready for the plotline to be you have to toughen him up, and I was very pleasantly surprised by what it ends up being make the sequel at Tanglewood Ben

yes I love the derisive if you want Tanglewood content this year to bring it back to Maestro you know the way the father talks about Tanglewood it sounds like military camp right it's the flip yes exactly you have to go to Tanglewood we'll learn how to really make people

cry by the way Metro doesn't go to to Tanglewood. I'm going to send you to Tanglewood where you'll learn how to really make people cry. By the way, Metroid doesn't go to fucking Tanglewood. Ben, any more thoughts on Prince of Tides before I give you the Oscars? I'm going to give you the Oscars. We're going to hand you a bunch of Oscars. Wait, really? Yeah.

Oh my God, for what? Coolest dude? Yeah. No. So yes, this film was nominated for various Osc category. Nope. Okay. So, yes, this film was nominated for various Oscars, winning zero, right? No Oscar wins.

It wins zero, yes. It was nominated for seven Oscars, but Streisand was passed over for Best Directress. I'm joking. That's what we called it back then, is Best Directress. And, you know, Crystal says, well, what did the movie direct itself now? Oh, no, he sings it. you're not gonna sing it no i'm not he sings it to the tune of evergreen to the tune of uh um nobody's gonna rain on my parade right right um

he had already made that comment for driving miss daisy now this crystal himself did yes now with two years prior which at that point was the rare Best Picture winner without a nomination. Only one or whatever. This comes in the middle of a run that Columbia Pictures specifically had three consecutive years where it was Awakenings, This, and A Few Good Men. Three Best Picture nominees.

And Driving Miss Daisy, right? As well? That's Warner Brothers. Okay, fine. It was three Columbias. That's the fucking one. No, yes, I know. Columbia issued a statement being like, I guess these movies directed themselves, essentially.

We have this particular problem. Well, and Penny Marshall and Barbra Streisand kind of gives you the sexism part of it, too. And Rob Reiner. But it's also, yes, double sexism,

but it's fascinating that it's three people who are, like, beloved within Hollywood. Yeah. Beloved Jewish actors turned directors. Yes, yeah.

Which is why they got passed over two of them are women but it's at the same time that Costner's running around so like the actor turned director

thing isn't consistent do you want to try and stop Costner running around you should tackle that guy he made two movies in the desert but right

like no within this 10 year period Costner, Clint, Redford, Beatty all win director but but can you tell me the five nominees

for best director yes because I looked it up this is the right okay so it's Oliver Stone JFK yes best picture nominee it

Levinson for Bugsy is the one that's the one you bought but obviously that was a best picture nominee keep going Demi sounds the lambs who wins deservedly

yes and then two subs right so one for Beauty and the Beast and one for Prince of Tides right the Beauty and the Beast one is like

well they're obviously not ready to nominate animation. Okay. So then the other two this year, and I looked up, one's Ridley. Ridley Scott for Thelma and Louise, a baffling Best Picture snub. Is that his first nomination? No. Maybe, yes.

I can't remember. In a certain way, it would have been less surprising if they had done the opposite. Yeah. If Thelma had gotten the Best Picture nomination and Barbara had gotten the Director nomination. Yes. I guess so, but like, obviously Ridley deserves that nom. Thelma not getting the Best Picture nomination is confusing.

It got a ton of Oscar nominations, and it was his first nom. One screenplay. And it won screenplay. Like, it was clearly in at the end. Well, it gets knocked out by Beauty and the Beast. That's the swap, right? Or fucking Bugsy, which is actively awful, but whatever. Bugsy is one of those movies. Like a big Tony costuming piece.

It acted so much like an Oscar movie that people were like, we're supposed to take this seriously, right? Who's the other nominee? The other one is... It's the youngest nominee in this category ever. It's John Singleton for Boys in the Hood. So I'm like, Billy, you want to go out there? I hate it when people say that shit.

Because I'm like, there's five nominees. Yeah. Tell me who's not getting the nomination. Yeah. And if Billy wanted to go up there and be like, honestly, Levinson phoned it in. Then I'm like, all right, Billy. Yes. But if you're going to go up there in the year they first nominated a black man for best director.

Yeah. And be like, I guess, you know, Prince of Tides directed itself. I'm like, of course, the Prince of Tides gets knocked off. That is a marginal best picture contender. I agree with you. It's clear that that was fourth or fifth. I agree with you. But the narrative that is forming at the time is

Lena Wirtmuller is the only female best director nominee. Yes. Right? And she's a foreign director. Barbra Streisand is like the queen of Hollywood in some ways. She's a queen of America. Sure. She's a queen of showbiz.

Right. Yes. Right. Yentl, she gets the Golden Globe win, which Golden Globes mean nothing. They love a barber, too. But it did feel like it was this, like, signal of, like, we are going to push this notion

that she's taken seriously as a director, and then she was snubbed for the director nomination. Well, Yentl didn't get any major nomination. Of course. But then this movie's coming out with the, barbara's really wanting to prove herself so i think it felt like more of a deliberate snub than just she didn't make the cut because it's something she so visibly wanted yes do you think it's partly that the like don't think we take you seriously by the way it's what they did to bradley and they've done to various other people they don't think they you know what they don't think yeah don't think you're so special just because you

you know directed a movie we like we know you're not a director yeah it's sort of the implication i guess it's just funny that this is in the same period where as we said like four a-list leading men all score best director best picture wins wins. You mean the Redford, Costner? Or I guess Beatty doesn't win Picture, but yes. Redford, Costner,

Eastwood, Beatty. And Gibson's right around the corner. Yeah. Who? Yeah, I've heard of him. Yeah, so in 15 years, five huge leading men.

And none of them are as famous as Barbra Streisand. Really? No, and all of them, I mean, like, Beatty, Redford, certainly both have the reputation of being as, like,

obsessive, controlling. They're creative forces, right? Right. Sort of similar to Streisand. They produce. Costner as well. But once the movies came out, Costner's chill.

That guy's fucking chill. Once the movies came out, people were like, we take back our criticisms. A little bit. Right? Uh-huh. We thought these guys

were insane control freaks and egomaniacs, but the movies silenced us. Dancers with Wolves and Braveheart are also both kind of like, you know, nobody believed in you type things, right?

Where it's like, these were seen as follies. Right. And also, Prince of Tides is like a women's picture, kind of, and that's not what

Braveheart and Dancers with Wolves are. Sounds of the Lambs are, really. Although Southlands Wolves. Thelma and Louise getting stumped out of Best Picture. Fried Green Tomatoes getting, I mean, got a couple now. You know, like there are other

films about women, right? Instead they're like, make room for Bugsy. No, but that's a good point. Like you're like Fried Green Tomatoes. Have you all seen Bugsy or are you the only person

Are you guys going to do a Levinson series and catch up with this stuff? I guess if we did Levinson it would be when you have to watch Bugsy, which is a chore of a film. But Sounds of the Lambs Are you guys going to do a Levinson series and catch up with this stuff? I guess if we did Levinson, you'd have to watch Bugsy, which is a chore of a film. But Silence of the Lambs and Thelma and Louise

both being like, quote unquote, women's pictures through a certain lens. Right. But both directed by men. Fried Green Tomatoes is directed by Herbert Ross. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Rambling Rose is a

interesting women's picture adjacent kind of thing. It's a strange year. Yeah. Okay. Let's just do the box office game, Katie. How late are you for this thing? Yeah, it's fine. Okay.

All right. Christmas 1991, Griffin. Prince of Tides is opening to a robust $15 million. And that's making 70? 75. Very good. Not seeing an international number here. Maybe the tides didn't spread

across the world. International number somewhere. Maybe a failing of the numbers. I can imagine this being something that doesn't translate great overseas. It didn't play huge overseas. I'm sure it was released overseas. Sure. I mean, it's got tides in it. Seas. Tides are huge. But it's opening number four, Griffin. Tides, seas.

It made 61 overseas for 135 total. Money is made. The movie cost $27 million to make. Streisand proud that it came in under budget. Because I think Yentl went slightly over budget. Yentl is like 10 times the scale of this thing, really.

Eastern European villages. And Patinkin, too. Lighting that man. It's a Herculean effort. With the results you get. No, lighting that man. It's a Herculean effort. Yeah, but with the results you get. No, that's impossible. That is a true tie. You cannot keep that. I shaved the man and it just grew back the second I did it.

That beard grows in one minute. One minute. Number one at the box office is a family film from a gigantic director that made a lot of money, but was perceived at the time as a big flop hook hook you guys never did hook right because you started spielberg after one day we'll do it we'll both be like it's mid and everyone will yell at us because now hook is seen as one of the four or five best movies ever made the hook tide can turn again it's gonna go back and forth going insane every time i have the hook conversation i feel like i'm going insane every time i watch hook yes and i see those sets and i'm and i see hoffman

right and i'm like man i'm so excited for this movie and then it's two and a half hours of spielberg like crying at me about like how he could be a better dad and i'm like entertain me i know and i'm like you're good at it i know you are why do we agree with our parents where everyone else of our generation fell for it right right because there are a lot of those movies i fell for and i hold a lot of nostalgia for still and hook cost us 70 million dollars is what i'm reading here on wikipedia because he built these sets the sets are incredible in that movie that's it's beautiful gowns you're like great sets incredible uh hook is number one number two the true family hit of the year best picture nominee

Beauty and the Beast yes good good movie how do you feel about it oh masterpiece do your kids like it

we have not it's kind of scary yeah we haven't done princesses a ton I have boys obviously I feel like we should go back to it

I did I loved that movie when I was a kid though I was very into it yeah it's kind of like scary and fun. Have you not been doing classic Disney much at all

or just not the princess one? Some classic Disney, but like, again, they have like... So Disney Plus gives them total control over watching whatever they want. So they watch Bluey, which I love Bluey. Sure.

I'm not going to say anything bad about it, but... Bluey's the best. Yeah. I want to like go see some of these in the big screen and be like, you were going to watch this thing. Jungle Book, Robin Hood. Is those like the boy movies

to go with? Yeah. Robin Hood's been high on the list, actually, because I think they would really like it. Robin Hood's so good. Yeah. This is,

I want to point out, sorry, just one more shout out to James Newton Howard. His first Oscar nomination is for composing this film. He says, Barbara,

sweetheart, but quite blunt. If you're thin skinned, not easy to take. And Barbara says, like, she is guilty sometimes of like sitting in a scoring session and being like, no, Oboe there. You know, like literally like noting it to that level. I want to say this before I forget. Sorry.

Thank you for reminding me very quickly. She she wrote the song for this movie. Yes. Lyrics to the James Newton Howard sort of main theme of this film. And Columbia was like, you fucking put it at... Yeah, you wrote a song. You performed...

That Money in the Bank. Yeah. And she was like, A, it felt a little like we're going to make you sing for our supper. We only let you make this movie if you do a song.

And she's like, I want to be taken seriously as a director and not have the song be the thing. But the other thing she said was like, I watched the movie

and I was like, it's his story. There's no place for me to be singing. And his narration ends the film and if it's immediately then followed by me singing, it feels like it takes it back to my voice a little, which I don't want. And so I'm watching this on the Criterion with her commentary

and there's the version where you can see the cut. Are you listening to commentary like this? Yes. That's how she holds her microphone. We are the world style microphones under the cut. When you're listening to commentary like this? Yes. That's how she holds her microphone. We are the world style microphones under the chin. She's a fun under hair. Yes. But they have,

you can watch the version of it where the end credits have her song over it. Has a song? And she's saying, the song's good. And she's saying like,

I just really felt it's his story. You don't need me here. And that's happening sandwiched directly in between the last two lines of the movie being him saying, Low being him saying Lowenstein

Lowenstein and then giant directed by Barbara Streisand it's just it's the whole balance one it just says Barbara doesn't even say her last name it's the whole tug of war encapsulated in one moment where she's like this isn't about me and it's sandwiched in between

she's right but also I also have to mention the notorious trivia fact that I'm sure is true that when NBC broadcast this movie in 1995 Barbara called the network mid movie and was like the commercials are too loud can you lower them and they did

and they did. Of course they did it's Barbara. It's Barbara. It's incredible Number three the box Box Office Griffin. It's a family comedy. It's a remake. Families are eaten at Christmas in 1991. Father of the Bride? Father of the Bride with Steve Martin.

Yep. And Diane Keaton. Yeah. And a little Martin Short? Yeah. What's going on? Great time for gay representation in Hollywood. And Kieran Culkin.

Kieran Culkin. Yeah. And Kimberly Williams, I want to say. Kimberly Williams Paisley. Oh, did she marry a Paisley? I think she married a Paisley. I think that's right. Did she put on the Paisley?

Those names sound correct. Yeah. It is Kimberly Williams. And a very famous house. People love that house. Great house. A Nancy house. Number four, Prince of Tides.

Number five, a family comedy. Just kidding. This movie is lurid and violent. Okay. And foul mouth. Is it Cape Fear? No. It is a action comedy. Just kidding. This movie is lurid and violent. Okay. And foul-mouthed. Is it Cape Fear? No.

It is an action comedy. It's an action comedy. A buddy film. We could cover it one day. We could cover it. Part of a long, notorious filmography from a great director. Part of a long. But an action director. An action director.

It's not a franchise picture? Nope. It gets sequels? No, it's a one-off. My guess is they were hoping for a sequel, and it wasn't quite as big a hit. Kind of a famous cable movie. It's not Tango and Cash. No, but you're in the right ballpark.

There's a buddy picture? Buddy picture. Action comedy. I'm in the right ballpark. They say fuck like 80 million times in this movie. It's got the most fucks. Yeah. It's like one of those fuck movies, you know?

They just keep saying it. Is one of those fuck movies you know they just keep saying it is one of the guys probably loved it then and probably now who's the distributor uh the distributors the great people at warner brothers great people at warner brothers they say fuck a lot joel silver had a hand in producing if you've heard silver it's not last boy scout it's the last boy scout have you seen the last I've never seen Last Boy Scout wow that is surprising to me because it's a real

bad boy movie a lot Bruce Willis Damon Wayans have you seen the last Boy Scout oh it's Tony Scott no I have not

yeah hey there's a football on the poster so someone he was a football player no one's a Boy Scout that's what you're saying huh

no one's a Boy Scout in this movie I can't remember I've seen it like three times and I can't remember they're all shooting and yelling. Number six, JFK.

Obviously. Sort of the best picture front runner that year. In a way. Silence winning is sort of surprising. Because it was surging at quote unquote the right time. But then everyone's like, is it too crazy? Sure. Number seven, Star Trek VI.

Great film. Undiscovered country. Number seven, Star Trek VI. Great film. Undiscovered country. Number eight, The Addams Family. Great performance. Was that a holiday? Was it a Halloween release? It's like a Thanksgiving movie. Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense. Both of them are Thanksgiving pictures. The sequel's better. Yeah. By far. Undeniably. But the first one rules. It's well acted.

It's fun. It's good. I think it's also incredibly well directed it is it looks incredible yeah number nine is bugsy which is a piece of shit number 10 it really sucks i watched it out of some obligatory and i was like i think it's the most tobaccon of all levinson pictures to its detriment number 10 my girl tiktok tried to serve me up a clip from my girl recently and I was like

get it away from me I'm gonna start crying yeah my girl that was a Christmas release that's such a summery movie it was also Thanksgiving I think that's a movie I've seen

I heard Parent Trap was released on TikTok Mean Girls Mean Girls Mean Girls is the one yeah but still but I like how Paramount's

acting like it's like oh we released it I'm like have you checked TikTok it was already there every movie is available on TikTok in like Mean Girls is the one. But still. But I like how Paramount's acting like, it's like, oh, we released it. I'm like, have you checked TikTok? It was already there. Every movie is available on TikTok in like 40 parts or whatever. Like, that's just what TikTok has. I realize what this makes me sound like.

People watch movies like that? No, but TikTok will just be like, hey, two minutes of Sully? You interested? And you're kind of like. And you're like, absolutely. I'm doing Sims. I'm going to watch Sully.

This is why I'm not fucking downloading TikTok ever. So it's the current equivalent of turning on TBS being like, oh, we're halfway through Midnight Run. I'm going to watch Sully. This is why I'm not fucking downloading TikTok. So it's the current equivalent of turning on TBS being like, oh, we're halfway through Midnight Run. I guess so, but like in an insane way, like it's cooking

everyone's brains. Yeah. But then sometimes it is two minutes of Sully and you're like, I'll scrap it. I never felt the draw of TikTok until you told me

that Sully is on TikTok. Honestly, TikTok finally learned my brain and was like, it's time for you to watch two minutes of Captain Phillips right now. TikTok always sounded silly to me, but you're telling me TikTok. Honestly, TikTok finally learned my brain and was like, it's time for you to watch two minutes of Captain Phillips right now. TikTok always sounded silly to me, but you're telling me TikTok is saying,

can we get serious now? It's trying to get serious. It's the only way you can watch Sully, so you better go for it. They keep on taking away ways for us to watch Sully. Government's taken our Sully away. David, what else is in the box office? I just read the top 10.

That's the entirety. No, that's it. The numbers have nothing more. You finished picking your nose. There's nothing left to say. I was scratching my nose. David what else is in the box office I just read the top 10 that's the entirety No that's it the numbers You finished picking your nose I was scratching my nose You picked the winner I think I saw a pick I think I saw a pick

Goodness You're doing the thumb and the bottom I think I saw a pointer finger I haven't really picked my nose in a long time I saw a pointer finger way up there You't really picked my nose in a long time. I saw a pointer finger way up there. You haven't picked your nose in a long time. You've picked your nose before?

Wait a second. Hang on a second. Oh, boy. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Maybe I haven't had a real snotty nose. Does your daughter not pick her nose? She's always up to stuff. You don't get jealous?

Watching her have a ball? Nostalgic. She still has such a tiny toddler nose. Yeah, it's really hard to get anything up on her nose. I'm not saying you're jealous you want to pick her nose. I'm saying pick your own nose. No, I mean, I've sucked snot out of her nose. Okay.

Which is an insane thing you have to do. It's one of those contraptions. Yeah, they don't like it. Do you know about this, Griffin? I don't want to know about this. All parents do this now. There is something satisfying where you're like, damn, there was a lot in there. Because they can't blow their noses.

It's like stealing gas, like siphoning gas, but it's not. You make it sound really cool when you put it that way. They don't like it at all. I don't like it at all. No, you would actually probably like it. People, like,

adults probably basically pay spas to do that for, like, lots of money. Sure. Like, irrigate my ass. There's probably a TikTok channel about it where you can be like, how much snot comes out of your nose? People are actually fucking huge on TikTok, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, snot talk. All right. Pants and ties, done. You're the best. I'm so happy to be back in this room with you guys. I know. Way too long. You're on a whirlwind New York trip to be back in this movie, guys. I know. Wait so long.

You're on a whirlwind New York trip to see every single Oscar contender. See Maestro plus others. I'm going to go see all the strangers right after this. I'm mixed on that one. Yep. This is appearance number seven? Eight? Seven or eight would be my guy.

I forgot Starman at the beginning of this. Six cents. So I'm not trustworthy. It's a sleepless y'all. Starman. Death becomes her. Those are all the COVID ones. Collateral.

So this is Titanic. This is Titanic. Titanic is one. Yes. But then it's still her eighth appearance. Wow. Richard Lawson is always

going to have me beat. But I'm, you know, I talked, I podcast with him more often than you guys do. So I have that going for me. Maybe we ban Lawson until Katie Madison.

Lawson ban. Note until Katie Magnuson. Lawson ban. Note taken. Sorry, Richard. Full ban. Lawson shadow ban. Quickly here at the end, just want to say this movie deals with suicide and self-harm.

And just want to say to listeners out there that you should talk to someone if you have any kind of plans to harm yourself. That's true. We here at Blank Check are very big proponents of therapy. I think that's not a thing we hide. There are people you can reach out to.

There's a hotline if you're ever feeling in a moment where you just are desperate and it's okay to feel depressed and people want you around. Yeah. Yeah. And once again, if you haven't gotten that from listening to this show over the years, Blank Check relates to depression. Yes, we do.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that quickly at the end. Katie, thank you for being here. Is there anything you want to plug? I'm on Little Gold Men talking about award season. I guess when this comes out, it's going to be like the craziest. Yeah. January is going to be.

End of Jan. Okay. All right. So we've gotten through the Emmys, Golden Globes, Critics' Choice Awards, Chaos of early January, which is going to be terrible.

Let's not even watch the Emmys. And then I always make. The Emmys is the one you don't want to watch? Fuck them. I always make fun of David Ehrlich who never plugs our podcast when he comes on the show.

So Fighting in the War Room, also much plugs our podcast when he comes on the show so fighting in the war room also much more freewheeling all topics on the table podcast that I do as well and I'm on Vanity Fair most of the time the best of the best I'm hungry you are the best of the best Katie I love you so much David's eating goldfish

sometimes you steal your toddler's snacks because you're hungry nothing wrong with the goldfish well well and Charlie's choice remains on the table anytime you steal your toddler's snacks because you're hungry. Nothing wrong with the goldfish. Well, well. And Charlie's Choice remains on the table anytime he wants to claim it. But I imagine it fluctuates constantly. I mean, listen.

I have not been told if a top 10 is going to be requested this year. He might start his own Patreon where he can submit his own top 10 and people can put down a couple bucks.

If he wants to hold on to the content himself for his own paywall, but we will always accept a Charlie's Top 10 on this show. Yeah, I mean, he went to Barbie. He's watching movies. Yeah. I mean he went to Barbie. He's watching movies.

Yeah. I mean this year his like last year's Avatars was like a really good like we both like the same movies time but Ninja Turtles was good. Do you think that's

his top of the year so far? I should have asked him before I got here. It's probably up there. We saw that one twice kind of by accident. But there's not a clear cut in the way that like

Sing and Avatar have dominated previous years. No, honestly, it's probably the Mario Brothers movie. Well, obviously it's that. Yeah, like that's

the movie of the year in our house. We gotta do better for our children. We really, that's my takeaway on that. Well, no one think of the children.

I feel like it's fine for kids to have a dumb movie to enjoy. I agree. I wish Mario was just like 20% better. It's also 90 minutes long. It is.

Did you hear that? Oh, I heard it. Big fan of that. But Ninja Tur better. It's also 90 minutes long. It is. Did you hear that? Oh, I heard it. Big fan of that. But Ninja Turtles, it's good. Ninja Turtles is good. That's the one that's right by the kids. Yeah, and Sound of Freedom. There's a lot of good kids in this year.

The Nun 2. Nun 2 quietly crushing, by the way. Yeah. Nun 2 is going to like triple the gross of Exorcist. Yeah, although off a lot from Nun 1. Okay, fair enough. crushing by the way yeah none two is gonna like triple the gross of exorcist uh yeah although awful lot from none one okay fair enough this is the oldest news to discuss by the time this episode comes out you know what yeah all right none we ain't scared of you yeah okay so if you want to haunt the studio we are cool with that yeah um i don't support that uh tune in next week

for mirror has two faces with our guest, The Nun. Specifically The Nun from The Nun 2? Is there a different Nun in Nun 1? I think it's the same actress. Maybe she updated her look. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to promote the show. Thank you to

AJ McCann, Alex Barron for our editing. JJ Birch for our research. Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our editing. JJ Birch for our research. Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our artwork. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including blank check special features of Patreon

where we do commentaries on film series, Hollywood film series. And we're doing the Terminators now. Yeah, I think that's right. That's what we're doing. We're doing all the Terminators.. Yeah, I think that's right. That's what we're doing. We're doing all the Terminators. We're visiting the first two Camerons and doing those wildly successful,

consistent Terminator sequels. Just a clean franchise. All right, all right, all right. Wrap us up. Tune in next week for Mirror Has Two Places with The Nun. And as always... My favorite film of the year was Mario 2. I like when King Koopa is hitting the mushrooms and collecting coins. Stomping on Goombas.

Have you seen Mario? Okay, are we ready? Yes. Yes, whenever you want. Let's see if my head cold helps me. Well, it's going to help. It's going to make you sound more like Nick Nolte. I think that's important.

What do you mean? Well, are you going to, other than your cell phone, are you going to hold something? You have any kind of business you're going to do with your hands while you're delivering this quote? Throwing stuff. Yeah, throwing stuff, getting up, grabbing cigarettes constantly.

We should all grab cigarettes constantly. Do you have a dictionary on hand that you can just be reading? Yes. Just, you know, we read the dictionary in our offices all the time. I like props. Give me something to do with my hands. Okay, ready? I got to make it younger.

I'm doing like Hulk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to scale it back. You got to scale back 10 years. Okay, ready?