Blind Plea - Listen Now: Everything Happens with Kate Bowler

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Today, we’re dropping in your feed to share with you a podcast we know you’ll love. It’s called Everything Happens with Kate Bowler. Are you living your best life now? Not always? This is a podcast for you. Duke Professor Kate Bowler is an expert in the stories we tell about success and failure, suffering and happiness. She had Stage IV cancer. Then she didn’t. And since then, all she wants to do is talk to funny and wise people about how to live with the knowledge that, well, everything happens.    Comedians have the ability to be unsparingly honest in ways that buck all cultural norms. It’s a truth-telling that so many of us crave. Cue Rob Delaney. Rob is a comedian, actor, writer, and director. His memoir, A Heart That Works is an unsparing account of the death of his beautiful son, Henry. Rob lives in London with his family where Kate visited him for this honest and hilarious conversation.    To hear more of Everything Happens, head to: https://lemonada.lnk.to/everythinghappensSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode is brought to you by Huggie's Little Movers. Huggie's knows that babies come in all shapes and sizes, and there's nothing worse than an ill-fitting diaper. Huggie's best-fitting diaper is their little movers, featuring a curved and stretchy fit. Huggie's little movers are made with up to 12-hour protection against leaks, too. Get your baby's butt in a Huggie's best-fitting diaper. Huggie's Little Movers. We got you, baby.

Meet Jeanette McCurdy. She's an author, a writer, and a big feeler. So much so that she's making a podcast all about her feelings. Jeanette's memoir, I'm glad my mom died. Welcome to the world into the story of Jeanette and all of the intense life experiences that molded her into the person she is today. But how does she manage all of the messy hard feelings she's feeling right now? In each episode of Hard Feelings, her new podcast with Lemonada Media, she'll tell you all about it. Jealousy, shame, social anxiety, she wants to laugh about it, cry about it, and work

through it with you by her side. Why? These hard feelings are a big part of the human condition. They unite us all, but only once we're willing to face them. Hard feelings is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. Lemme know. Hi, I'm Kate Boller, and this is Everything Happens. Okay, Confession, some of my very favorite humans in the world have one job, and their job is comedian. There is just something about their ability to be unsparingly, sometimes painfully honest, that just destroys the cultural scripts we get about what nice or polite looks like.

And it's the kind of truth telling that I think that so many of us crave, like we don't want the niceties, we don't want the platitudes, we want honesty, and maybe a second to laugh about how ridiculous our lives have become. We want the kind of truth from people who have the eyes to see, you know, like they get it, they get the joy, they get the absurdity, and they get the kind of tenderness underneath about what makes us all human.

So this episode is really special to me because I've been really hoping to meet this guy. Rob Delaney is one of my very favorite funny people. He's a comedian and he's an actor and writer, so he co-created co-starred this critically acclaimed, Emmy-nominated, BAFTA-winning comedy called Catastrophe, and it's just basically perfect in every way. And if you haven't seen it, you must, and I apologize it is very spicy. But Rob is also a gorgeous writer. He's the kind of person that um... obviously writes to think clearly. And so his memoir, it's called A Heart That Works.

And it's an unsparing account of the death of his beautiful son Henry He lives in London with his family and that's where I sat down with him He wrote his bike there. He's very tall and if you want to see video of me just losing my mind either laughing or crying We've got video clips of this whole interview. If you subscribe to my newsletter, that's KateBuller.com slash newsletter. He's the kind of person who doesn't pull punches. He also doesn't say kind of the typical kosher thing. His response to pain is very guttural and honest and frankly incredibly funny. And so you're going to hear that in our surprisingly intimate chat today.

It's a lot of dark humor, so prepare to feel mildly offended, but just know you're my people. And the great tragic comedy is one we all understand. All right, Rob Delaney everyone. Rob, I loved, loved, loved your book. And I think the thing that is so striking about it right away is it doesn't spare you anything. It's intense and funny and rye and throat punchy. And it seems like you're already practiced in unvarnished truth telling. So I wondered if before all of this happened, were you like that? To a degree, my boy Henry died, right before he turned three. So we knew him.

You know, he wasn't a tiny little baby. He was a person with thoughts, feelings, opinions, tastes, you know, idiosyncrasies. And so when we knew he was going to die, and then when he did die, we were just destroyed. And I thought the best thing that I could do for people who haven't experienced this is not try to protect them from it, which is a very powerful impulse.

You wanna like protect people from your crazy story sometimes, or like ease them into it. And I thought, I just had developed, I guess enough of like storytelling instincts from the other stuff that I've done that I was like, you know what, maybe I shouldn't. And maybe I shouldn't worry about anybody else when I write this.

But I was conscious at the same time that if I don't do that, it'll probably be the better book. Yeah. And so I just wanted it to be a disaster and I wanted it to hurt because if you read this book before something incredibly terrible happened to you, you might be in better shape than if you read something that was like, here are three mantras that you can do just even in your car before you unbox your seatbelt or any of that stuff because if you gave people something real then they could like hang their hat on it, you know? And then for people who had been through it, I figured it would be like getting into a,

you know, the GMC, you know, at sunset. So that was the goal to give them something they recognized and said, yep, that's what this is. And then for people who hadn't been through it, to be like, why did you do that to me with your book, you monster, and have me say, yes, correct. I found that so refreshing because I, something someone said to me recently, I was having really debilitating pain. And I didn didn't wanna finish that part of the story because I just thought, because I can keep my voice up here. And look how great it is when I keep my voice up here.

And she said, oh, you clean up quick. And I was like, yeah, no, I think that is why it's been, it is practiced now for me just even to let people feel the weight of a thing I wanna to tell them. Because it is hard to say, like, right now I need this to hurt when I tell you I want it to land. And the weird part is is that if they take it and hear it and they might not even have to say anything, but if they sit there and they keep eye contact with you and they don't hold their breath and let it in, then you can move through it.

And then you can talk about like what to order for dinner or whatever, but if they don't and they close off and they don't wanna hear it then, then there's gonna be like discomfort there that's gonna sour the rest of your interaction, because it's almost like somebody threw a handful of paint at the wall, your story with cancer, death, or both, and then they're like, we shant look at it. You know, there's a big crazy orange star pattern dripping, you know,

coagulating on the wall. Let's acknowledge it, and then we can do our thing. But if you don't acknowledge it, then then you go crazy. Yes, that's exactly right. You can tell when someone's scared of you. You can tell when someone's like, I'm going to keep a really tight script right now, or else we might fall off the edge and talk about something real. And then there's times, I think I just don't know how to manage the like children's birthday parties. I feel a part of like something growing inside of me where I want so much to answer everyone's questions.

Questions they didn't ask. But why do I need to do this here? Yeah, I do. Yeah. All of a sudden. I have almost a hobby because you mentioned children's birthday parties. I love it when a child will hear that Henry died and then ask me about it. And this has happened more than a couple times where their parents radar will go up.

But unfortunately, they're about 15 feet away. And in the time, it'll take them to cover that distance to prevent their child from hearing about death. I've already told the story to their little child and they know that my child died and then they have that knowledge and their shitty parent can do nothing about it. And I've given them a gift because that child can handle it,

they can handle it like nobody's business. It's that friggin' brittle adult who thought, oh, I can control what type of, you know, truth reaches my child. Well, you didn't count on me coming to the party, did you? We'll be right back. This episode of Blind Plea is brought to you by Huggie's Little Movers. Huggie's knows that babies come in all shapes and sizes, and that having a diaper that

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We got you, baby. A dark prophecy foretold her death. Then through fire, it came to pass. And the faithful mourned. But it wasn't the hand of God that lit that flame. Mortal Sin, a new podcast from Dateline and from me. Josh Maygwitz. Listen to the latest episodes each week, completely free. Just search

Mortal Sin, wherever you get your podcasts. There are moments that feel intolerable. I think once you know things, like your description of needing to not pretend anymore that an old person passing away is the same thing. Right.

Like playing the game, everything's the same because everyone wants a moment to relate. And like, yes, we all have this deep desire to say, me too. Yeah. And yet, things are not the same. And being able to parse those differences is sanity. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. Tina Turner died. I think she was 83, if I recall. When I heard that, I was like, wow, she made it to 83. How amazing. Now I'm reminded to listen to Tina

Turner. Yeah, amazing. When I heard people being like, oh my God, Tina Turner has passed away. And I was like, yeah, at 83, after climbing the musical equivalent of a variety of Everest, like if you're, why are you not dancing? And so that's always strange to me. I mean, I get it, you know, but for me, it's a whole different bag

or that my dad died three days after a heart that works came out. And that's my dad. And he was 74. I'd like to live longer than 74, but I'd rather live to 74 than not quite three, like Henry did, right? And also, I didn't want to be like the guy who if I love you you die Like I think I did on morning Joe

They were like and you're dead. How's your dad on live morning TV? And I was like oh, I'm so I hate to tell you this On live TV, but he did He did sort of die. He's most sleep-disadjusted. And I can talk. Look, I wish he wasn't that. I love him so much. And he took such good care of Henry. Oh my God. And also the one-two punch of having the book come out and then my sweet dad died, my dad Bob,

after whom I'm named and who I look like and who took such beautiful care of my son, you know, he died. He got the training, I mean, all of the little twos and processes. I know, and now, like, I love that people can read the book and get to know him. Yeah.

But the reason I wanted to talk to you about it is because it's like Henry's death and the grief for that is like Jupiter, right? So your son dies of cancer, and that's, you know, you barely survive that, you know? And then my dad dying is like, I don't know, Neptune, like, or maybe Earth. Let's go. So it's, but it's still a celestial body that would take you forever to circumnavigate, but it isn't as big as the Titan, but it's like the earth of my grief for my dad

is like on the other side of the Jupiter. So I'm like with Henry, so I'm having to really consciously talk to myself about my dad, like out loud and talk to him and think about it, because you gotta grieve your dad, you know? But it's like the fact that he died at 74, it just fundamentally isn't as anywhere near as devastating as your two-year-old son dying, you know? So it's been really weird. Yeah, I guess I just

wanted to say that to you that I'm trying to force myself to not necessarily have certain feelings, but allow him to be close to me and in my thoughts and in my heart. Because in terms of mental emotional hygiene, you better grieve your parent regardless of the type of relationship that you had. We had a good one. So that's just a weird thing happening. Well, the front of it, I mean, I have a friend who wrote a gorgeous book about the death of her child. She talks about like the front of the out of orderedness.

And so like, there's grief that knows how to follow like a A to B and B to C and C to D. And then when there's no discernible alphabet, I think I said that grandparents and pet deaths are like warm up deaths for when you get like hit really hard. Those are like, no, a little training wheels. You'll be grumpy, you'll grumpy, you'll know, you're not gonna come back, you're not coming to Christmas. Cause you're dead.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. People like raise background parents are calling it being like, you son of a bitch. And I, please understand, I don't care. What? There is something that goes to this, it's funny that like, I mean, because there's no justice to the way tragedy visits us,

I think there's a bit in there, at least in my experience, where there's a part in which I want, I want an understanding of what it cost before I'm even like, that's the price of admission for for just understanding like um when I got sick I had a like a little baby and I would have to kiss him on his soft little fuzzy head before going to chemo every time and every time I I found that the it was it was just so surreal to toggle between the kingdom of the living and then the kingdom of the sick. And because you can't create a bubble around your loves, I don't know, there's something about all the medical stuff, but you can't really protect everyone from knowing even

if you wish you could take a break from it It's all your description of like the intimacy of Caregiving and the like the privilege and the burden of it was really Beautiful to me. I miss it so much I want to do it all when I think about it. I don't think about them like pre-surgery pre-disability like I want him back with his horrible tracky ostomy, which allowed him to breathe. So I also loved it. I wish I was sleep deprived because I was sleeping on the floor of his room,

listening to his breathing and his machines and stuff. And I wish I was changing his tubes and, you know, dealing with the weird, like, there's like permanent infections you can get like if you have stoma like holes that aren't natural in your body There are Bacterias and stuff that can come and live there and you kind of can't get rid of them. So you have to You know, I want to be doing all that because you learn all that stuff and now I can't do it now I'm like whenever I hear like a car crash. I'm not like it. Now I'm like, whenever I hear like a car crash, I'm not like, oh, scary.

I'm like, ooh, I hope I can help someone. I hope, you know, I was on a plane not too long ago. And they were like, is there a doctor on board? And I went up to the flight attendant and was like, I'm not a doctor, but like if there's blood, I don't care. Look how big I am. I can lift your biggest passenger like use me.

And they were like, like all right weirdo. I mean that was like in the first year after I reached out but I'm constantly like if I'm work exactly as busy I am with a career that I'm really lucky to love I would absolutely be like a part-time overqualified paramedic. You describe a feeling that I'd not ever heard anyone say about You describe a feeling that I had not ever heard anyone say about suffering, the aftermath of suffering, was you were like, I don't know how to describe it. It's this, like, you know how to dig in really fast, like there's something about like a long term relationship with fear and then having and being like, I love you, I'm rising to this. You're like, I have a higher pain threshold. Because I have this feeling like I could kill a man. Because I do now have a really, really, really pain threshold. Even though there's so much

little house on a prairie content here, I have like a murderous ability to manage impossible situations and get it done. I would happily volunteer to perform field medicine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I hear like, well, what if you died in the emergency scenario describing what, well, then I'd be dead. Like that doesn't even phase me, you know? I'm like, well, yeah, you get to do, yeah, you might die. I'm not saying you're not going to die. Or like when I hear about a problem out in the world, I'm like, well, yeah, you get to do, yeah, you might die. I'm not saying you're not gonna die.

Or like when I hear about a problem out in the world, I'm like, well, okay, you're sure. So totally people died, but also things will, you know, life will continue. So it's so weird what happens to your kind of frame of reference. Emotional triage and everything. You're like, well, okay, how do we get through this?

I do feel that way when I meet people that you see it in behind their eyes. And you're like, oh, you and you and you. And we have been handed a passport. And I like being around those people. I seek it out. Sometimes that's the only thing that makes me relax. Yeah, I love hanging out with my fellow bereaved parents so much. Yeah, but I'm always calling texting hanging out with my bereaved parent friends because

we can just chill around each other and get it. It's just easier. We'll be right back. You and I both know that they can be tough for a lot of people and I want to help you out. I have got an episode of the Sarah Silverman podcast out right now where I answer all of your holiday related questions, family stuff, emotional stuff. Heck, I'll even give you bad cooking tips if you want to. Listen wherever you get your podcast from, let me know in the media. wherever you get your podcasts from, Lemonade Media. Hey. In 2022, the US Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade. Since then, it's been a barrage of bad news.

But behind the bleak headlines, there are people working to protect our right to control our future. The Defenders is a new 10-part series about the fight for freedom in a post-row America. Co-hosted by Samantha B and me, Gloria at Riviera, the show will examine ways people are still accessing care from crossing state borders to self-managed abortion. You'll hear from activists, providers, and everyday people doing the work to expand reproductive freedom.

We're here to tell you, anyone can become a defender. The defenders is out now wherever you get your podcasts. In the before times of you, it seems like you were kind of on a big upswing. There's a feeling I get sometimes where things are busy and things are wonderful and they kind of have competing loves and they take up a lot of space that I can almost overwork or overdo something. I think I'll just pay it back later. Life is so full. Was that the season you were in? When we moved here to London from Los Angeles nine years ago, I started doing the sitcom catastrophe. And

we did two, the first two seasons back to back. And it didn't occur to me because I was going through kind of what you're talking about that I could say like, what if, what if we took six weeks off between the two seasons of television that we both write, executive produce, and star in. What if we just took like, you know, and, and, and so I, we just drove right in. And that was a very bad idea. And my wife said towards the end, when we were editing season two, she said, so, do you have a second?

Yeah, she said this last year and a half has been a waking nightmare. You have not been present. You moved me here with a three year old and a one year old, and I was pregnant. And I am incredibly unhappy, and I'm gonna divorce you unless you change the way that you work immediately. And I thought about it for a second and I said,

okay, and began to set about to do that. And then days after that, not even a month, Henry became sick and then we found his tumor. And then of course, you know, another thing we haven't mentioned yet is that my beautiful young brother-in-law died by suicide one year before Henry died, right? So Henry's getting chemo in the hospital, at Great Ormond Street Hospital. And I'm on the double-decker bus with my older boys. And when I say older, I do mean three and five. And they're like my lieutenants, you know. If I'm heading home from the hospital, my wife has tapped me out and is at the hospital.

And I'm on the top of a bus with my boys. And my sister calls and tells me that her husband, my beautiful brother-in-law, has jumped off a bridge in Boston and is dead. And so all these things happening were, you know, just staggering. And my sister and I are the only two in our family and I'm five years older and she's a girl. I'm a boy. So like, there's never rivalry or really fighting. We're just always like super pals, you know?

And so it was so weird to, in the space of 15 months, have those things happen. You both have unspeakable problems to people who don't want to speak about it. Yeah. And then you're both these cast out into outer darkness together. Like you wish, you'd wish just one of those things that happened. You know, if you got to pick,

like do you want both to happen or just one, you would pick one, but that isn't what happened, they both happened. And so now she and I have a means of communication that is deep insane. And then our poor mom, it took me a minute to extend for the, I don't know, shock waves or mushroom cloud of sympathy to reach and include my mom because she's like one step to roof, but because it's both her kids that happened that's so incredibly awful you know so that she's still trucking and has been so amazing for both of us i would really like to salute her resilience and beauty of spirit when we think about the shape that our families and our friends and our lives become

about the shape that our families and our friends and our lives become. I mean, it... there's not a lot of Mother's Day cards that are like, as the years go on together, we will find a trying to think of a lot of rhymes for together, just on the fly. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether.

Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. Whether. I mean, I'm just thinking of the kind of ways we all have to change, learn to change roles

over the course of each other's lives and loves to be like, I know how to be, I know how to be your mom, I know how to take care of these functional primary needs. And then it's like, oh, I need to learn to be your friend so I can let you go to college. Oh, wait, I need to learn to let you have a career that is, oh, wait oh, I need to learn to be your friend. So I can let you go to college. Oh, wait, I need to learn to let you have a career that is, oh, wait, now I need to learn how to be around catastrophic grief. I cannot possibly solve in a way that is not annoying. My mom told me about someone that she knew, not terribly well. It was sort of a, there was like a dinner party where there were people

who weren't like best friends or whatever, but you know, whatever. Yeah. I did our party. And one woman was asked, hey, yeah, how are you doing? Because she kind of seemed down. And her answer was, well, my daughter is in the fucking ground. So I'm not really doing that well. And my mom being like, ugh!

And this was before, like my mom wasn't in the blast zone so she didn't have to, she wasn't, but she overheard that and she knew that that woman's daughter had died and was just like, I'm really glad that he wasn't the one who had to respond to that because who would be, right? I mean me, I'd be like, yeah, what the fuck? I'd be like, why don't we go out? Let's just get, instead of like shooting BB guns at beer bottles,

let's go through other beer bottles at beer bottles. Let's just throw beer bottles at cars. That will make us feel better. But then my mom recently told me she was like, yeah, I remember that, you know, and then, and then everything that happened to our family did. And I was like, oh, yeah, she's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, daughters in the ground, not doing too good. How are you? Yeah. How's your evening going? Do you like to race P loss? You know? That, that Tignitaro opening in her. Oh, absolutely. She was like, I have cancer. How are you?

How's everyone doing? Not a cancer. I thought that cheerfulness of that just... Spectacular. Sleed me when I think about it. Yeah. She's so wonderful to take up over. I'm thinking about all the responses to terrible things that I did not love.

Yeah. I wonder if we could say things not to say for a bit. Okay. Things to say, I really like it when someone says, um, some version of like, I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yeah. But like the two you kind of gets me very emotional because it's not like I'm some generic person in the world.

Yeah. I do really like when someone's sorry for this specific reason. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and questions I love. Yeah. If my son died at the age of two years and nine months and you learn that, you are, I promise, wondering why, wondering how, wondering the circumstances. What was his name? You know, I'm happy to answer those questions, you know, and to people who are like, well, I didn't want to bring it up, you're not bringing it up.

You think I'm not thinking about my son who died, who's dead body I held? You think he's not here with me right? You think because he's dead. I have four sons one of them's dead, but he's still receiving a quarter ish of my parenting energy. I'm sure the percentages change between kids every day. That's a lovely image. He's my son. Yeah, I'm his dad. That'll never change. Where is he? I don't know. That, that I don't know. Which is good. I wouldn't want to know. You know, I want wonder for when we die. You know, the idea like, oh, you know, I know what's, I know what's going to happen. Come on. I'm an answer factory. If you ever want to know, I'll just kind of slip in the secrets of I

Think you probably like bossy people who just don't ask random crap and show up with lovely things I hated it when people said Is there anything I can do oh? Yeah, I mean you could come up with something to do yeah show up and then do it Oh, you could not give me a job by asking me that question Yeah, how to fit you into my, like, now disappeared life. Yeah, you just bring a mediocre slash, not even good, casserole, and you put it in my fridge. You know what I mean?

You come over, you say you're gonna be here with my children for a couple hours. Will you go for a run or go walk in the park or whatever, go find a weird corner in the park and lie down face down and cry into the soil and Have snails drink your tears, you know That's much better. Also kids again a Nice parent with their kid a good friend of mine was sitting there and their and their daughter asked about my you know about my son and Henry And who's Henry and I said who's my son and Henry and who's Henry? And I said, he's my son. And he died.

And she just went, what? He died. And I was like, yeah. And she said, and he's, he died and he's dead. And I was like, yeah, how? Why? You know, and being like, he got a, he had a brain tumor, which is like cancer in your brain and like that's so much better

Because every adult is that curious, you know and so fucking ask So I like those you know or people who were like are you are like Jesus Christ? I can't even fucking him out You know what I mean? Yeah, profanity. That's it. That's it. That's where it's best. That's where it's best. I mean, I feel a deep calm. I had this weird response to, I was just starting cancer and I was starting Lint.

And that was my like 40 days of, 40 days of F-bombs. I work in a very religious context. Yeah. And I was like, this is the new me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the new me, the new me felt very, it was, I mean, they have those studies of like, if you put your hand in cold, freezing cold water and you're allowed a million expletives, the people who are swearing the whole time can keep their hands

diverged for longer. And I thought that feels right. And the worst things that people say. Um, just like the question was how are things, things are very bad. We've recently learned that Henry's cancer has come back and he's going to die. Oh yeah, my grandfather had a brain tumor. Um, he got better, but. Yeah. And. And so that's bad. Oh my God, for you so much. Another one somebody said, how are you doing? Not great. You know, first Christmas about Henry's coming up.

And I would prefer to just go into a medically induced coma just for six weeks and skip it. But then our new son had been born because my wife, I mean, that's, this is a not even one podcast. This is a series. My wife was pregnant when Henry died, right? I mean, if you can even imagine that. And so we had a new son who arrived for Christmas. And this person said, yeah, but, you know, first Christmas with the new guy, like as if like deflecting the fact. And for me, the thing is, it's so weird because like, the arrival of our new son in no way addressed Henry's absence

by the same token, Henry's death did not lessen our joy at this beautiful new fella who'd entered the scene. So it was almost when you see an estuary where fresh water and salt water and one is blurry and one is clear, you're like, they're not. They aren't intermingling. They're right next to each other and you might feel them at the same time, but they don't like the arrival of number four did not lessen the nightmare horror of losing Henry nor did Henry dying make this little nugget any less delicious and you know and I was very worried I thought well I don't love anymore because it's all my heart is destroyed.

So I'll go through the motions with him. Like, I'll tell him, I love him. I'll dress him and feed him, but his experience has gone a suck. And then the second he came out, I was like, give me a piece of cake. You know, I just wanted like rubbing him all over my face and head and licking and biting his ears. I still, but my the amount of time that my kids ears spent in my mouth is. Oh, no.

It's insane. We had to make rules. Like we signed contracts. My son and I about like, we had to make, yeah, there's so many biting roles. It's the only sort of like in the constitution of that relationship is like number one. Yeah. Under these conditions. I will eat you. Yeah. When you think about what because Henry's pain, I imagine, was always on your mind, but then his absurd, gorgeous joy and personality. It feels like you've got a lot of strong feelings about joy and puppies. And what makes life really beautiful and good in the middle of suffering.

Yeah, well, you can happen and coexist and stuff. So we were having a lot of fun, often when Henry was in the hospital. There were a lot of fun often when Henry was in the hospital, you know, there were a lot of terrible there there are many terrible things too many the list when you have a tumor next to your brain stem the cranial nerves it messes up a lot of stuff but um like frontal lobe totally undisturbed so like just totally undisturbed. So, like, just, you know, minutia and finer things and tastes, you know, and foibles and stuff were razor sharp in him. So, he was very fun, he was very funny, he was very curious, he was very mischievous. He was like stealing things all the time. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, nurses would be like, where is it? And Henry would be hiding under his pillow, you know, or, and he, you know, he would come out and climb up

and sit on the desk of like the ward nurse head and help them answer calls and stuff, you know? I mean, he was ridiculous. And also, he was sort of a combination of like third boy in a very short space of time. I mean, his oldest brother was four when he was born, and there was one more in the middle. So we've got three boys under the age of five.

So since he showed up third, he kind of wisely was like, okay, I'll be very magnetic and sweet and smiley and lovely, not like screaming for attention, but just like being such that you couldn't ignore him. So he, like a little cutie pie, can I ever drew you towards him? And then after his, they found the tumor and he had a surgery,

then he had to be like, you know, a van der Holyfield of just ferocious aspiration and drive to learn and relearn things. So he was just like, I mean, he was like in the minds of unbelievable hard work, you know, learning to use his body under these new circumstances. So he was this like, he was like the sweetest and most driven. He really made a lot of other kids look like shit. Yeah, those garbage kids. You gotta just feel sorry for them. Not my other kids though, because they were so amazing with them. I mean, things that they learned are other little gentlemen, you know, I mean, they could set up a feed, you know, like a through the stomach tube. And, um, and they could do, you know, basic, trackyostomy

maintenance and care. And, and always in his hospital beds and playing and like the, the number of pictures we have of our three kids in one hospital bed. Having a very good time is just so yeah they were amazing and are amazing. Because I often wonder, I mean the things you can't ever know, but like as a parent you always want to like who's this going to make you? Yeah, my 10 year old is I sometimes call our 10 year old and he's the second one the mayor of the family because he's just he's just a smiley go-getter, you know, and likes to be in charge and and is loud and it makes friends easily and all that and sometimes can be really annoying and awful and you know physically attack both his older and younger brother and things like that. You know, he's

a human being, right? Yeah. And anyway, so not too long ago, he was playing football. That's what they call baseball here. And you just keep adding your sports. That's what they call ping pong. And it's what they call cricket. And the grand mother of another kid that he was playing football with came up to me and said, I just wanna let you know, he's being so kind to my grandson Timothy when he plays football. And not all those kids are. And you know, he just moved to town.

What your son Diego is doing. By the way, I love that name Diego, which is real. It's just being really encouraging to him, you know, and he's so appreciated and he's come home and told me that. And I'm like, okay, so I immediately start crying to this woman I don't know. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm so much so much.

You know, and then I'm like, I'm furiously texting my wife. You're never gonna believe what I deserve. Yeah, you're so encouraging. He's a good boy, my good boy, to help the other boy. And black. Freaking out.

And then Diego came over and he's, I didn't know he'd come up like behind me and saw me sending the text and I was like, you weren't supposed to know that. Like I was gonna use that later as an ammunition when you made me upset, I was gonna look at it and think, you know, just how the weird intra-family dynamics, you know, I was like, at it and think, you know, just how the weird intra-family dynamics,

you know, I was like, but now you know, I'm so proud of you. It was the craziest thing. We're all just looking for signs. But you know what I mean? Like, he was doing it a type of kindness that like, you don't have to do as a 10-year-old boy, you know, and I was just so happy to hear that. And so, yeah, so I don't know.

Did, you know, what he did when you had done that. Otherwise, who knows? But I do know that he, when he was four, you know, knew how to feed his brother with a machine, you know, through a tube and a stomach and set up all the weird controls for it. So it parcels it out properly through the night and stuff. And yeah. Yeah. It's always the hope, right? It is not just for change. We're all going to change regardless. But for some kind of, um, and this is like

the, this is one of my favorite theological terms, which I actually find useful, which is just, like, there's nothing we're demptive about suffering, period. But there is, I think, a hope, a hope, a hope of, like, sanctification. It's like, when you love, and it's, and you love, and you love, and then you do all the hard work of loving. That just the act of loving makes you into a person. Yeah. It's the things happen that are hard and you like metabolize them and try not to hate them. Then, and you acknowledge, yeah, that really happened.

You know, it hurt terribly. It hurts right now. It's like in about it. But it did terribly. It hurts right now. It's like in about it. But it did happen. Yeah, I did acquire some hard one skills that I would give away in a second. Immediately. But I can't.

So I might as well use them. Your, that is, in really just words, we would be like, that is a testimony. And I am so grateful to have met you. I enjoyed that so much. Thank you. I enjoy that so much. Thank you. I used to imagine that life was a series of choices, you know, by my sheer grit and charisma

and advanced degrees that I'd be able to get through life unscathed, you know, and then, and then, and then, and I wrote about that feeling in no care for being human. And it's, it's always such a gift then when I get to meet other people who have the same feeling Like they were suddenly exiled from a world that they loved and They wonder well, then how do you live? I think that's one of my very favorite parts about this listening community is that you all get it You are people who understand that things happen, that just,

unmake us, unmake all of our well-laid plans and all of our best intentions and our greatest hopes. And no matter how hard we try, we can't put life together the way it once was. But we have to find a way to live now forever changed. Maybe with love and courage and joy and hope, because what other choice do we have, except to move forward with a life we didn't choose? And Rob gets that. He has been unmade by the death of his precious, precious Henry.

And I feel so lucky that he shared a bit of him and his grief and his razor sharp wit with us today. So before we go, you know, my friends that I love to bless the crap out of you. So here's a blessing for those spaces of deep hope and unchangeable reality and the who am I now? So here's a blessing for when you've lost someone far too soon. And hey, that includes grandparents. You're allowed to be very sad about grandparents.

But I do like it when people are funny about everything. All right, love. Here we go. God, this, this is impossible. This grief is too much to bear. If there was a tight order to the world that you made, it's come unspooled, and no one will wind it up again. God, I feel it coming, that ache for the stories that will never be told, and an anger rising when I remember, what never should have been.

Worst of all, God could anything be worse. It is so beautiful. The way this grief is a language of love. I am love sick with this much sorrow. Teach me to speak this new mother tongue. Show me how to memorize so I can never forget what they gave and what is gone and What we were owed by a world robbed of their presence And hold me by the edges for I am coming apart

Nothing but love will find me Bless you my dears of a lovely week. Hey, so this is the part where I get to thank everyone, which is my favorite because I have a lot of people to thank. I have really generous partners. I've got the folks at the Lillian Dowment and the Duke Endowment who love supporting storytelling about faith in life. And I've got an incredible academic home addictive in any school and a new podcast network called Lemonada. Their slogan is, um, when life gives you lemons,

listen to Lemonada, so yeah, big fan. And I have the most incredible team. And it includes the ever-everly is now when you favorite word, wonderful Jessica Richie, Harriet Putman, Keith Weston, Gwen Higgin-Batham, Brenda Thompson, Hope Anderson, Kristen Bowser, Jeb Burt, and Catherine Smith. We planned some really fun things for this fall, and I really don't want you to miss it. If you go to KateBuller.com slash newsletter, you can get my free weekly newsletter, and it's got all kinds of stuff. Insider information, video clips, from these episodes, and these are fun, because this is like me and them in person. So it's, and these are fun because this is like me and them in person, crying into every possible sleeve.

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On my show Everything Happens, I sit down with incredible, wise, usually very funny people, like Glennon Doyle, Matthew McConaughey, to talk about what they've learned in their own difficult times. Listen to everything happens wherever you get your podcasts.