Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - David Koechner

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Neal Brennan interviews David Koechner ('The Goods,' 'Anchorman,' 'SNL') about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 2:54 Parenting 12:48 Childhood 29:45 Alcoholism  39:20 Catholicism  55:55 What He’s Done ---------------------------------------------------------- https://nealbrennan.com for tickets Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is a man who I have admired for, how long have I admired you? I've admired you for 25 years. I don't know if we're going to get to it, but one of the most impactful single seasons of SNL that I can remember. It's working! Hey! In 96? 95, 96. 95, 96. 95, 96. Then we worked together on a hit movie called The Goods.

I'm going to fucking knock you out. You already have. Starring my guests here, Jeremy Piven, Will Ferrell was in it, Bing Rames. Rob Riggle. Rob Riggle. Noreen DeWolf. Catherine Hahn.

Catherine Hahn. T.J. Miller. Ed Helms. Ed Hel helms ed helms yeah pretty great yeah what a hit and uh it is we talked we talked about this but it has become quietly a cult classic yeah it's funny as shit that movie yeah dave keckner he shouldn't have said anything before i said his name he doesn't understand show business and he never will that's true i don't mind that that's true uh i'm i was making that up but i know you were it seems to be there's truth in that all right so uh we did we worked together in a movie in 2007 i think we both share a great fondness for each other and have virtually no relationship but there's something

to having fondness for somebody and requiring nothing from the other person and knowing that that person exists is great a couple things about kechner i need you guys to know before we start uh has some sort of we'll call it autism where you remember people's birthdays everyone's birthday i used to but hey hey hey what happened well what happened i i got five kids and now it's you know after a while it becomes overwhelming in that you remembering birthdays we're just remembering uh just all the stuff are you having a senior moment or you do you just not give a fuck both great uh another thing that i will never forget uh what did your father refer when he when he would say the word what we all say crotch the crotch area what would your father say the cloth the cloth now i believe it's because

he thought crotch was a dirty word. Interesting. Yes. It's because I was like, everyone, it's the crotch, Dad. I think he thought it was a dirty word. Would he flint when you would say crotch? I wouldn't repeat it. I wouldn't challenge him and go, Dad, it's crotch. You would say the crotch area. Right down dad it's crotch um well you would say the croft area right down

there in the croft area but i think i was young enough to go like you can't challenge your dad on that but these days your kids can challenge you on everything it it's it's been flipped as far there's no parenting anymore it's insane parenting's gone there is a ge George Orwell quote that I wrote down in my phone because it was from an Orwell short story. And it's like, yep, this is it. He said, the weakness of the child is that it starts with a blank sheet. It neither understands nor questions the society in which it lives. And because of its credulity, other people can work upon it, infecting it with the sense of inferiority and the dread of offending against mysterious, terrible laws. Wow. A sense of desolate loneliness and helplessness of being locked up, not only in a hostile world, but in a world of good and evil where the rules were such that it was actually not possible for me to keep them.

I read it seven years ago. It was fuck this is it dude that is perfect yes this is it terror from a total lack i will never send this to you terror from uh you think i'm gonna give up my writing like this terror from a complete lack of control and that was always my recollection it's like you motherfuckers are changing the rules constantly constantly i mean you can't really protest you you can do one protest then you get smacked or something yes you get you yes you there's punishment uh that is about as good as it gets his name's george orwell and he was british the second half of that sentence starts with something about the terror, what was that? A sense of desolate loneliness and helplessness. That's it.

You ever see the movie You, Me, and Everyone We Know? I haven't. It's the best distillation of this idea of how fucking lonely childhood is. And it shouldn't be. Yeah. It doesn't have to be. Right. It's as simple as, as I say, what our job is as parents is only to let your child know

that you're seen and heard. And then my job should have been, and I didn't do this, to make sure that how you see and hear the world is important to me so i can reflect that back to you and then give you the guardrails to find yourself within that rather than let me place this dark ugly smother on top of you and insist that you must comply with this rule but then because your life is so unmind is so unmanageable anyway you do it the best you can yeah in terms of it's what they call in the nba a bang bang play most it's like you know like inbound tip most of life is just coming at you so fast kids they're yelling they're crying they're

sticky they're gross they smell. You're mad. You know what I mean? So you just do shit quickly. And you hope for the best. And it's always imperfect. Parenting, I think, is pass-fail. It really is. Right.

It really is. Do your kids still talk to you as adults? Yes. Great. You look back on stuff and go, oh, there's room for so much improvement. Right. And you have to deal with whatever crisis is happening in the moment and you do your absolute best how old's your oldest 24 he's doing well and the other thing i've told my kids too uh because you know uh i went through the divorce and that was very hard and on everybody and i told my kids find it

pretty easy go on there's a thing of like you look back and go, okay, I should have been done better in terms of ensuring that the children were made to feel safe because when the family falls apart that then you don't feel safe. Right. And so I'd say that's the one thing I would probably go on back and try to correct. But I told my children after the breakup that I said, listen, I owe you a lot of apologies in life, and I will always give them. And it's not just saying I'm sorry. There's amends, and there's steps to amends, and I won't make an excuse. So anything you ever want to challenge me on, I'm open to hearing. And they've done it several times.

So like that. And Charlie said a couple of things to me. I said, yeah, I get it. And, you know, I don't make an excuse. I can say these are the circumstances that were in play at the time. And so that probably fed into what happened. There's no excuse for it. Nothing horrible.

You understand? But, you know i do um sorry no how my children feel is precious to me and so uh you know it's an ongoing thing and you just want to build on a stronger and stronger relationship so well i didn't know that was gonna come up you know we're only like seven minutes in fucking save something i'm begging you i'll tell you this you do that to me one more time uh i will cry at a commercial and my kids will look at me if they see if there's a sappy commercial you know they will just kind of look down the couch and see, are you crying dad?

Did you fight that? Cause I find myself the older and I said, the older I get, the more I'm like John Boehner shot at the American dream. My God. Where he'd be like gin soaked and smoking and then like start crying for no reason. It was fucking hilarious. I he he reads his book on tape after after clearly having several glasses of wine oh fuck that's great yeah i also should mention uh kechner was uh one of the best parts of one of the best movies anchorman so thank you and you're right to say it yeah no i was totally right i'm trying to get the audience back if you don't mind all right let's do some blog there quit fucking around if you quit you're

fucking crying we'll get some blocks yeah so the basically if you this list is basically all every all of your problems are add based i think so this is an impulsivity thing that i guess is is slightly intrusive uh i just run in a new place and um the air conditioning went out so it was very hot so i went out and bought a bunch of fans because it's nice and cool at night and i showed the kids insisted this is how you you put the fan in the window you don't put it in your room right that's where you pull the cold air and i think this is like no it doesn't work that way so i'd show them and then probably every 10 minutes i'd go into the room like right better right right much better don't you feel cooler you should open your door because you got to get you got to get the airflow going do you see that's the type of thing where it

manifests itself in the day and are you right in this situation? Of course. I'm a dad. But you want credit? What are you looking for when you go in the room? I guess. Confirmation? Yeah. Dad of the century?

It's not even about being the best dad. It's probably about being right. And I guess the other part is hoping that they get did you learn the lesson i think that might just reflecting back on it right now i think that's it like do you get it i'm just thinking what could be a good tiktok channel just a dad if you can they'll learn it it just has to be in tiktok form that's interesting the other thing about the impulsivity is that then i try to over manage my kids just over manage their lives and it's like just don't just get the fuck out leave me alone because i know i'll focus on like

the things that i know will be helpful to them right so i like to introduce this idea to them but then i'll try to i'll say the same thing 10 times yeah to where i was like now it's not possible dad because you've annoyed me past uh past this is this is you've ruined it yes i'm holding my antipathy toward your presentation of the idea i'm holding it against the idea now so not only fuck you fuck the idea and i get that it's a good idea it's dead don't it don't matter the fact that you were the postman fuck you yes not at my address yeah yeah get the fuck out of there well because you kept you don't the the mailman doesn't go back and go, did you read it?

Did you read? Oh! Did you read it, man? Oh! Did you read it, man? God damn it. You just got to drop it off, Techno, and then keep on your route. Run downtown. Let me open it and read it for you.

Get the fuck out of my room! Jerry, let me do it in a different voice um yeah that's very that's a perfect metaphor oh my god do you do they do it sounds like if i was your kid i would make fun of you oh yeah do they go oh dad's doing no he's picked me so here it's bugging i'm it uh they don't necessarily do it in the moment but they they they'll make fun of me for whatever yeah some of my behaviors and activities yeah and and you know all in good fun and for a good reason yeah i'm not i'm not slagging there yeah i'm just i'm saying like i would they must make fun of you yeah and i if they don't i implore them yes yeah or just roll their eyes all right add adhd never diagnosed a child but it must have been a great trial for my

parents i am one of six kids and none of them are wired that way and then that's the heading yeah then the the resulting blocks are poor concentration impulsivity, disorganization, constantly making plans, yet struggle with follow through. Go on. Do tell. Well, you want to start from the childhood? Yeah. So, yeah, I just was noncompliant, mostly with whatever their orders were.

And it didn't, you know, then you're going to be penalized more. And what happened, the result was, I think after a while, they just kind of threw their hands up and like, I don't know what to do with this kid. So were you just a terror kind of? No, I was unfocused. And, you know, so I wouldn't comply necessarily to what they wanted. And then that was very frustrating to them.

Now, my mother, you know, your mother must have had kids every 10 seconds my mother had won the first 10 kids 16 years beat it beat it i challenge you i can't um she uh my mom had uh uh six kids over um what is it uh 15 15 years 10 years but it's interesting the catholics will say, and two miscarriages. Fuck. I got a text from my mom yesterday. I'll just read you what came up on my side. Just in terms of how weirdly macabre kind of older Midwestern women are. I'm off to a funeral

anyhow you're saying yeah that's it yep i'm off to uh yeah it's something about something about my niece and nephews anyhow off to a funeral at her age my mom can go whenever she sees a funeral she can go and she'll probably know the part do you know what i mean like there's so few people their age where it's like yeah i'll probably it's like a like a club promoter yeah going to a club like i'll probably know one of the other promoters or something perfect um so my mother had three kids in the first three years of their marriage and it was overwhelming my oldest brother had uh got very sick uh he had appendicitis and um so he had a really high fever and the doctors told her that that's going to impair him and so she focused on

my brother like intensely like this is i don't know because it's her first, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. That seems to be the way. Yeah. My understanding is that she was very unhappy. So she'd moved from her small hometown near North Kansas City to this other small town in the Midwest and apparently not fond of her in-laws and she was surrounded by them. So I imagine she felt quite trapped. And then one, two, three, she has kids in three years. Overwhelming. Again, no help. What did you tell me is your father was a three pump chump? Is that what you're telling me? Probably. Bang, bang, bang. And then my father

was working 60 hours a week because he'd started a new business. And she was doing the bookkeeping and did the bookkeeping with six kids all these years. she would also iron clone things you think about like how did you do that but then if you have a narrow channel of responsibilities this this and this make food do the laundry do the books i guess right because in our world it is um it's running the level five rapids all the time yeah and pretending you're gonna put up a sail that's the goal i'm gonna sail these rapids well you don't sail rapids well i'm gonna try because that's the only way to really achieve success because somewhere out there is the serene waters where someone picks up your boat and you don't even have to do anything except

walk around and lounge and then your art goes away but um that's for another podcast another podcast but uh so i think by the time i came along i was very different and again i haven't asked my sisters what i wonder if i was a particularly fussy baby because i don't feel like we ever attached my mom you and your own your old lady yeah yeah i felt like we were like ah we're a miss and so that's the way it was and so for me by the time i was in sixth grade i was done i made the decision i'm leaving you guys can do what you're gonna do but i've got to cut when i was 10 years old i distinctly remember walking around the west side of my house when i was 10 alone feeling the way

george orwell did and uh just that desolation of loneliness. I'm just like, I'm leaving. Also, you were aware of the West side of your house at 10 years old. I knew, I knew that's what, yeah, that's just,

yes. You're seeing the orientation of a man's brain right now. I've literally never heard a human being describe their childhood house as I was on the West side. Other than like the white house well but i was outside i was walking around by myself outside collecting no better okay um but anyway i remember thinking distinctly i have to leave i'm gonna miss my family and friends but i have to go and this wasn't the childhood feckless weapon of the threat of running away no no it's not a hollow threat it was like oh it was a decision i i can't yes i i yes all i knew was i have to live in a city so i'm growing

out of 10 out of 2 000 people and i recognized early it was like no one's like me here i just i'm just i'm here i'm doing whatever but just this isn't my place. I have to go. And so, yeah, that decision was made very early. And I remember not feeling emotionally torn, like, oh, I'm going to miss the family. Yeah, I very much agree. My brothers and sisters were great, like routinely take me places. Great. I went to, I used to go to the chicago my brother

was an usher an andy frayn usher in chicago so i used to go to the chicago stadium when i tell you i've been to a hunt i went to a hundred games at chicago's bulls and blackhawks i went to a bulls game how old are you neil i'm so old old. I saw someone mistake Michael Jordan for Orlando Woolridge. That's how old I am. Someone, a little white girl goes, are you Orlando Woolridge? And I remember Michael Jordan being like, no. Like, what? I really swear.

I feel like it's one of the last times it happened to him. But, and Cubs games, 100 cut like wow uh and then when i was in high school my brother kevin took me to comedy shows in new york and like so i'm very grateful to them but i also remember distinctly being like i gotta get the fuck out of here from the emotional tenor my parents were setting yeah it was interesting i there was a guy who was he was a child of uh he was a child of my parents closest friends and that they didn't live in town and they came to visit and he told me recently he said that um he said i was four or five or something like that and we were outside playing hide and seek and i think he said he was eight and he was like i guess impressed with me in such a way as

like this kid must be adopted because he's so much smarter than the rest of these kids and so much different like he's not part of this family so it was such and this just happened a year ago that i was he told me this was like oh there's fucking validation right there for me the guy remembered it yeah he told me that yeah that's so it must have been so gratifying oh yeah i was like oh hey hey yeah i knew it i mean a lot of show businesses i knew it yeah I mean, a lot of show businesses, I knew it. Yeah, that's true. A lot of show businesses, like, I had a suspicion that I was weird. And something like a little something, I just knew it was something that I should move to Chicago. You ever read Bob Dylan's autobiography where he said, and I don't feel this way, but he said, I feel like I was born into the wrong family. I think a lot of people, I have not heard that one, but i think a lot of people probably felt that way but i don't you

feel also that can they write songs right here the other thing is it was necessary for us to become who we are and uh so i have to be grateful for that had i grown up in a city i might have been uh quite happy to then do something else but like that desperation of I've got to find my expression and then it becomes through this other means. Now, I'll bring this back to the ADD thing and how it manifests in my life because ADD, plus what we call ADD or ADHD is what? That's a gun. Well, what kind of gun? A gun. Don't't worry about it i don't know why gun came up with shotgun and each one of these pellets is a different definition of what ad d is right and why does it particularly go that way and then they try to treat it with medication

that's fucking not to be controversial but come on serious Scientology no but it just there are ways to certainly guide it yeah and and you know recognize it and then try to do something with it it's like dyslexia yeah i'm shocked that it's still so overlooked and misdiagnosed my brother as it turned out uh severely dyslexic and they never knew and so my mother was always very worried that something's wrong here, right? Well, no. Is this the oldest brother? Yeah. Yeah. What was the diagnosis on him? Well, they said that because he'd had a high fever, he's going to have lessened brain function.

Oh, got it. Right. And that never happened. He went on to run my dad's business, right? Right into the ground. Go ahead. No, no, no. He did well with it. But, yes, but her focus on that rather than the rest of us, my sister had once told me that her mother, her mother, had said, I don't know how you and Dave. Will, will you just put wow? Have wow come up behind him

she said I don't know how you and uh Mary Rose I don't know how you and David learned your ABCs because I was so focused on uh Mark which tells me what I knew which was like oh I was just alone which in one way isn't that what you want like leave me the f alone yeah but the other the other thing i always instead of writing that blank sheet of paper i've always equated it to um the wrong software like you've got your mainframe there it is now all the wires are just out here and it's up to you to plug them in and build your own software. But no, no, you're given, you're going to run this software, which is called Catholicism and everything it means. And there is no other software.

You're also good luck. We're truly the best of luck trying to put new software on when you've installed. It's, it's like, it's like when you two put their album on the iPhone and you couldn't delete it. That's what Catholicism is. True. It's like, yo, is there, I mean, every, it informs your logic. I mean, there is a level of morality to Catholicism that I find worthwhile. None of them follow it.

Well, it's ironic, yeah. But it's like not wrong i don't think it's wrong i don't think the ten commandments are wrong especially the stuff about donkeys i find especially relevant um so so i i i completely hear you and you're also ingesting your parents frame right uh and their experience yeah and the way things have to be yes and i can only assume that for generations everyone just went along with this failed system see i started working for my dad when i was seven years old in a manufacturing plant he owned a you're working the smelter. But kind of, you're near some adult contraption that can kill you. People, some of the machines I worked with, people had lost fingers and thumbs. I'm not kidding you.

That's what it was like. Yes. It was, I have some jokes about it. It was so disorganized. You you can't you can't believe it i was seven and made to work after school every day for five cents an hour and my dad would say i'm overpaid at that price oh what's this you know as big as this bubble gum and in my mind i would think of course i wouldn't correct him you don't let me buy bubble gum it's not like oh i got bubble gum money yeah like it was relegated all the way down to like i wouldn't

i wasn't allowed to buy a mad magazine like that's too risque you know i couldn't go down to hex drug store and just buy a comic book this is in the 30s right yeah i I remember my parents threatening me with military school around 13. And my thought was, oh, please send me. Just get me the fuck out of here. This does not work. Yeah. Because I thought to myself, good. Because when I go to military school, I'm going to learn to play guitar.

And I'm probably going to be a rock star. So just so you know. Just so you know. That's how it's going to go down. There's going to be nothing but excellence coming back yeah well i mean which is also kind of the plot of one of the greatest novels or why ain't it was catching the ride it's a military school ah which i forgot about till recently i was like oh yeah you fucking went to i have to say i never read it you would i know i would love it you would love it based on that and then based on that that whole like well just say that's

the whole tone like well just so you know and yeah it's like a bunch of phonies he's constantly talking about phone it's great i've read franny and zoe which is another really okay no i mean that's more tender yeah catching the rise like desperate and yeah and that's like we were talking about earlier, that's what a lot of kids are. You're desperate to know. And I don't think my kids are desperate. I really don't. I mean, there might be some desperation that's unspoken to me. And there's always a sense of desperation that any human probably has.

But I don't think they may, they don't necessarily feel it to the point where they are desperate to get that. That they want to go to military school. Right. They used to make me run to the post office to pick up the mail. So we didn't get mail delivered to get that. That they want to go to military school. Right. They used to make me run to the post office to pick up the mail. So we didn't get mail delivered to our house. There was a post office. Again, it was 1930s.

1929. You knew Superman, right? Yes, yes. The mail, the post office was a half a mile away. And they would make me run to the post office to get the mail and run home because I had so too much energy. We would go out on, here's the punishing thing, on Sundays after church, every Sunday. And then

every Sunday we'd go to my grandmother's house and they'd all talk for an hour or two and there's nothing to do. You can't go explore. Then we'd go for a long car ride out in the country in our country squire station wagon. And I'm sure I'd be torturing the fuck out of my brothers and sisters. They'd make me get out and run along the side of the car. Fuck, that's hilarious. That's how much energy. That's how exhausted they were. Like, get the fuck out. They never said they were like get the fuck out they never said

fuck but get the fuck out of the car leave everyone alone and just just run alongside the car yeah my brother tommy i was before i was born but apparently he fell out of a moving car he fell out of the station wagon talking about impulsivity i once very young opened the car door and put my foot down like i was gonna go feel what it was like to put your foot outside and feel along the like which we're all curious about look you'd be a liar to say we're not all curious about that you did you do it i put my foot out and my mom was like what are you doing i got i probably got within two inches of i was just gonna you know yeah you're just gonna tap the roadway no no no i'm just skimming well at least they didn't want to kill you who knows yeah um i used to do a joke about uh do you remember when there was this fad

in the 80s when kids would fall down a well uh-huh they should bring that fad back yeah but also i haven't heard from wells they just disappeared somehow they finally filled them in with concrete thank you something like yeah i guess we should feel like we had with were they active wells no they would be you know wells that were just that were old and these are wells folks that are just two feet wide and so kids would fall down can you imagine the horror and then there'd be a week though they'd be the rescue team would be baby jessica right i think that was the first one right yeah that was the but also the horror doesn't sound any worse than what you were going through so So. I was down my own well.

But yeah, what the ADHD does then is because you do feel your own sense of out of control. Right. And so then you seek some control or suppress what's going on, which is this constant flood of thought going back to the rapid, just going. Like my mind is a 20 lane highway and there's 20 cars that i'm driving at the same time and then one of them speeds up and the rest of the cars go are we going that's what my mind's like so then what you tend to do is uh oftentimes you'll fall into addiction and you know i was a an alcoholic well you're always an alcoholic. I'm sober now. When did you get sober? I've tried for years, but, you know, more than a year ago, you know, because I.

Oh, like that's recently. I had a couple of public things. Oh, great. Didn't know that. A couple of DUIs. Not one. Not one. Oh.

Two within six months. Like, are you kidding me? They wanted to send one more and they send you to adult military academy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, it was, you know, know you make mistakes don't drink and drive okay please ever uh and and you know those are some failures and then you you know your kids have got to see this shit and it's on the news and all that stuff and it's like oh god um but i you know i guess to say it's another wake up call i had been sober before that and

then just one day you slip and then you get behind the wheel that's literally what had happened both times uh like slip like you had six months or a year oh yeah yeah yeah yeah you know you have a relapse and then yeah i i had solid time before that first one and then you have a day and you're like oh the. What would make you drink? Oh, I'm triggered by everything. Well, that particular one, because, you know, you talk yourself into it. The one was I decided I wanted to change my sobriety date

to New Year's Day. That's how dumb that type of thinking is, right? That's the alcoholic thinking. The alcoholic will plan and scheme, right? And so you start planning and scheming and thinking how you're going to have that drink for what? Now it goes back to the ADHD and the ADD because you need to suppress the thing that's going on. Like you feel a bit out of control, so you want to control it. So you typically control it with a substance, right? Like maybe I can put this in line or else i feel like it's less whatever racy um and so yeah you make those types of decisions for that reason when i

hear you talk about that your alcoholism i'm uh codependent so my problem is what kind of standard of behavior can i hold a drug addict or an alcoholic to a sobriety is the only standard but interpersonally to their behavior yeah oh you can't do anything no i'm saying how should i react i should i react with compassion yes uh yeah you could you could say i see you're struggling do you want to talk about it? That's all you can do. They're late. And I'm not saying because they're actively drinking. They're just. It's an alcoholic behavior.

Yeah. Alcoholic behavior, it's over 25 years I've figured out how to do it. But it's not easy. Meaning, when I say it, I mean hold the alcoholic or drug addict to a standard. They hate it. They plead how it's not easy. Meaning when I say it, I mean hold the alcoholic or drug addict to a standard. They hate it. They plead how it's not fair, how it's wrong. All the alcoholics and mental illness excuses. And it's kind of like, it's kind of not my problem.

It's not your problem at all. Yeah. It's their problem. If it affects your life, then it's your problem. Yeah. They're your problem. And then you have to just let them go, especially if it becomes toxic or like that. If you hold them to a standard because you had to have a lunch date is one thing, or

if they're working for you, then it's like you get the third strike. You're done here. And I wanted to keep you on, but this doesn't work. I've had to get rid of some people in my life that are toxic, and it's like, oh, I've known you for almost 30 years, but you know what? You're kind of shitty, so no. Have people let you go, and you've been like, yep.

I'm sure. I'm sure. There are some friendships that are a mystery to me that aren't continued. And I've always been like, what did I do? And this goes back to possibly the impulsivity or the codependence, which is an insistence that we're friends in a certain particular way. And a lot of people are like, that's not the way I interact. I have interpersonal relationships. But if you have this codependence, which sometimes is triggered by the ADHD,

is because if you're not quite sure of yourself because of ADD, like, is this out of line? Is that out of line? Then I'm checking in with you, which makes you have to then be my guardrail, which is just what you were talking about. Like, what is your responsibility to this person's crazy mind and how you have to deal with and guardrail or just what you're talking about like what is your responsibility to this person's crazy mind and how you had to deal with and help him navigate the water it's like dude you got your own boat maybe you should get out of the water yeah uh so that those things invade on every level too you know check this this checking in this checking in well it's checking in with the sick person yeah for it's going to

the problem yeah for the solution right although i will say i have told my kids if there's one thing i would have redone it's i never would have taken a drink my life would be much different yeah yeah and i think i'd be much happier hmm uh had i never done that happier today if you'd never drank yeah but you haven't drunk in a year oh i'm happy never but i can't be with my yeah unbridled uh yeah you're the 20 lane highway yeah um but the you know you're you're you're really limiting your the possibility of your happiness during all those years of drinking 50 years for a first time i got drunk the first time at 10 yeah yeah and that went on for 50 fucking years i didn't know i don't recall you

being a drunk when we worked together well no no i mean it was always manageable i wouldn't be drunk at work yeah no never at work you didn't even seem hung over you just seem like yeah well even like you played a good drama like we do like look so yeah you never struck me as drunk but um no no not at work you know no yeah i got it but i it just you didn't look puffy or whatever so There'd be spells. I could go. I would be able to go for six, eight months and not drink because I'd be determined, like, this is in my way.

Let me put this down, and I'll just get straight. But I wasn't in progress. Do you have a ton of regret, missed opportunities, things like that based around drinking, and how do you handle how do you handle the shame and the regret uh you just don't like that you have to look past it it's it's over i didn't hurt anybody um except myself yeah you know and i'm sure it's you know hurt me uh work wise uh uh but i'm i'm sober now and uh but so yeah and things like that and you know just where

you could have been better or sharper or whatever. Or, you know, there was one show I was on and it was it was when my marriage was falling apart. And it was pretty obvious. Like you've got something going on there, big boy. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. You know, here's the thing.

It's not it's never going to help you. No. Socially, it makes people feel less anxious. Okay. it so does box breathing you know so do that yeah it's not the most it's hard to box breathe and catch up i'll say that at a party i've tried it people didn't love it um uh i'm saying before you go to the party whatever but you don't need to escape your present moment what's your your desire is to be present and so don't run away from it just get there stay there people don't know their desires to be present no they don't they don't they there's just not it's not what we're trained to do right it sounds like, if I hear you correctly, that it's hard to be in your body. Yeah. I've

studied TM, right? And I'm going to see Greg Fitzsimmons later today. And he and I did it together. Went to the classes. Best thing about Transcendental Meditation, you pay, it's like, I don't know, 150, something like that, six classes. They give you a mantra. It's that simple. They never ask for more money. They offer more classes classes they don't sell it to you but and those are free i think i overpaid did you yeah because the guy's like you know pay what you want i think he may have over suggested so did you do it yeah and do you do it every day i did for a while yeah uh but you know i don't uh and when i do oh god it consistency. It's building that real habit and that's all it would take. It really would. So you tell, you know, I tell myself like

you can't give yourself that 21 minutes in the morning and 21 minutes at night, then do half. How about that? And it's, that makes everything manageable. It puts everything back into focus. It's all okay. And then, and then maybe I won't try to do everything all at once. But you need, you would, in order to execute that plan, you would need to not have ADD. Right. Yeah, that would help.

Okay. Raised Catholic. Yep. And you wrote a well-known block. Yes. One of the greats. It's a granite block um so i i'm i don't know if i can out catholic you but my mother came from a family of nine kids out of those nine kids

there were two priests and two nuns incredible that's what i'm growing up in every holy day and every saint's day we had to go to to church so you don't ever miss a sunday number one ever and you don't miss a saint's day like you go to church and there's there and they have the list constant yes they they're nuns and priests and and you come home and your mom's wearing a blouse and you're like, fuck. Is it a fucking holiday? It's some kind of holiday. From where? You think I was allowed to go out of the house to my friend's house one mile away in Tipton? No.

That's how strict it was. But couldn't you masquerade? Couldn't you blow off some steam? Couldn't you do it like, I got to go for a run and then? No. I mean, you had to be reporting in you could i was there was no freedom whatsoever yeah fear or just repression both for on their part oh they didn't love joy they didn't love merriment they didn't love we couldn't we weren't allowed to

laugh at the dinner table wow and i have the same rule at my shows. Woo! I was often invited off the table and then told to stand. My dad would draw a little circle like I'd have to get on my tiptoes. He'd draw a circle. I'd have to put my nose in the circle and hold my arms out because I was being disruptive at the dinner table. Demonstrate it on the microphone, disruptive at the dinner table demonstrated on the microphone please on the microphone on the microphone and then you'd have to hold your arms out on my tiptoes and he drew the circle because you tiptoes you draw a circle you put your nose in

that circle tiptoes arms out how long would you have to do that for i don't know for as long as like probably till they finish dinner just so my ass wouldn't be would you cry i'd be no just just just angry i would cry i was a big one of the great criers good for you uh yeah that's a that's a healthy way to express yourself a friend of mine an adult friend of mine a gay adult friend and he was somewhere with his boyfriend and somebody threw something at him like something they yelled and threw something and he's like and i was like plotting and scheming and i'm gonna do that and he's like then i got home and i just cried he's like because it was like i my I feeling hurt? All the anger is from hurt feelings. So, yeah. So, I guess why you say good for you is because the anger is sadness, probably.

Your anger. I think you're right. Yeah. The four pieces of fear, right? Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. Fawn's new, by the way. Fawn, they didn't have 15 years ago that I was aware of. Okay.

And then I saw it and I was like, that side note every relationship in la right and that's all part of codependence too yeah right how do i act with this person right now and sometimes just like you're walking past someone why do i why do i feel like i have to have a certain uh position with that person they will never know you it doesn't even matter it's whatever you know you're just walking down the street like well i'll walk this way i'm not a threat yeah i mean i i want you to know i appreciate you yeah why why it's milaney's ex-wife you say that walking around with me was like walking around with someone who's running for mayor of nothing so how would how did catholicism affect your shame sex success

did that did it it's all shame right all shame you know i can't it's that not good enough that feeling of not good enough that really it's that that can be paralyzing and you know um then again uh that'll feed into something of soothing with you know uh substance abuse alcoholism um so those you know that's how you deal with it like i can't be myself oh okay i'll drink then i myself i can be myself now because i'm not thinking about you know the anger and all that well yeah it's the it's the you feel ashamed then you think that the shame is coming from other people yeah and then it you are so defensive naturally and so you start drinking and you're like right you didn't think i right and it's like they didn't think of you at all well they they would know of them i'm talking about my parents.

No, no. I'm talking about the proverbial, the person that you're walking past or whatever. Oh, yeah, right. Like they're not. They were not even on. There's someone, a quote from someone that people don't think about you as much as you think they do. People are not thinking about. No.

We're always thinking. I'd say we're all just flying past each other's windshields it's like this this this yeah but you know even when i got sorry i lied like my parents they're like ah that show was a little you know yeah a little racy they weren't i did racy i didn't think i i thought you were gonna say like past its prime or something oh no yeah we didn't have an opinion about comedy yeah it was like they're they're sometimes dirty so they weren't necessarily it wasn't a thrill for them like but are you kidding yeah do you not understand what this is this is the pinnacle yeah uh but like well it's not our type of show. And I was just like, you have no idea what it takes to get here. It's also such a weird thing to express.

It's like, do you not see the accomplishment? Is that not the thing? I don't think they could. You're right. I think you need their value system, their families for 40% people oh yeah here's a question that it's not about you or or why do you think that generation what do you think that the the two that became nuns do became priests do you think it was a like a sexual thing a repression thing a service thing because they remember when a lot of people would be called oh yeah and then they stopped the stop the call stopped that's what i had a

conversation with my aunt who's now passed and she was in her 80s and we were driving i drove drove her from kansas city to tipton which is two and a half hours i asked her about it and um did was she an or she was one of them? She was. And so all of the things that you mentioned about the reasons to go into it are in play, but also poverty, because that was a free education, right? And she told me that she got the call. She told me when she got the call.

And she told me that she was boy crazy early, right? And then you're always being indoctrinated when you're in a catholic school yeah about make sure you're available to the call and she was basically the call if you're not familiar what we're talking about they would say you it was a vocation yes and you were and the basically god would speak to you and tell you to become a priest or not to be in the most repressive position in a dorm with other priests and never get your own freedom of expression your life is only service you are married to god literally married to god as they say they have a ring don't the nuns wear

a ring yeah uh it's this It's such an odd thing. And I'll say it. That's a fucking cult. I mean, come on, gang. Catholicism? Yeah. It's come on. This makes no sense whatsoever. Because look what happened within it, right?

All the abuse. Yeah, the amount of abuse and the amount of... and the amount of it's it's maybe the most inconvenient truth that i can think of like worse than climate change in a weird way because because it's it's they want they automatically just forgave him because it's so like fuck oh fuck dude what did you do unbelievable i almost understand the pope shifting people around and and like ah fucking if we if we throw out everyone that it does this we're gonna have no one doing it right and we believe not only is it the financial incentive like we need to leech money from our parishioners consistently because it's basically a real estate operation at this point yeah and and or we're helping yeah we're helping the world you're

with our message i it's such a weird thing i don't understand and of course it's i don't know if they even have nuns anymore like you don't see them you don't see them i don't i think that thing is dying out and a lot of your priests are coming from overseas now. Oh, right. Yeah, because people are like, I ain't doing that. I think for a long time it was an escape from your own repressed sexuality. I think that was part of it. And then my understanding of the things I've heard about it is because they were

dormitized in a dorm room, right, in eighth grade or 12, 13, you'd go to the seminary at that age. And at that age, boys start exploring sexually, and so that's when they'd have their- What kind of sex objects or what kind of objects of sexuality would be common at a, whatever they called the- Seminary. Seminary, yes. Well, how do we get several flue down? You know, so they're all probably having whatever, just, you know, they're casual, like, oh, okay, just a lot of fluid you know so they're all you know probably you know having whatever just you know they're casual like oh okay just a bunch of dudes haha let's have a circle jerk

whatever that is right and so i think because they're sexualized at that age that's why a lot of these priests i think would sexualize kids right at that same age yeah because that's what they know yeah but it's so dark and devious and they don't have a outlet for expression that maybe they're testing like are you like me too and it's okay to have this freedom now here too and like yeah really messed up and you know it's institutionalized too yeah so yeah just all of it is no the problem is not replacing it with something else you know when i when i quit going i'll tell you church yeah a long time ago i wanted i wanted to believe oh i'm sorry my my aunt who's a nun was sitting on a playground set when she was 12 or something like that and that's when she heard

the call and it was very clear to her that that's what she needed to do i was like oh okay and she was concurrently boy crazy yes and maybe what depending on what part of the playground set may have had some vaginal i'm betting there may have been some connection there i'm sure she never had you i am i cannot believe you didn't ask her that old lady about her young vagina um had it been touched pull over let me ask you this um uh did okay and what so she said it was about that's at least she mentioned the boy crazy part yeah yeah yeah and that that she got the call and she remembered it was very clear and that uh and that was she was supposed to do and she was

smiling when she was telling the story almost like that glow have you watched that that mormon documentary on netflix like that type of like yeah what is it sweet sweet uh keep pray and obey or something keep sweet sweet something yeah weird like i think it's i think we're both right keep sweet pray and obey so yeah the four of them and a lot of it was uh economics so yeah and so that's how catholic and now i quit going to church when i was a sophomore in college because i wanted to believe i had i had to go to a catholic uh college i didn't even i was gonna ask but i'm like of course you did yeah where'd you go there's no option you go to a you could go to community college but you can only go

to benedictine college in atchison kansas if you want to go to college because that's where my uncle was the abbot of the monastery that was connected to that college fair enough so there you're going that's it did. Did you get a full ride? No. No. My parents paid. College wasn't as expensive then. So I had to go there for two years, and I did.

And then I went to the University of Missouri and completely fucked off because I was a poli-sci major. And I realized by my third year, like, oh, I'm not going to make it. What are you talking about? I realized what politics was. I really wanted to get in and to help oh, I'm not going to make it. What are you talking about? I realized what politics was. I really wanted to get in and to help people. I really did.

I really did. And that was my calling. Like, I want to help people. But also, I think I wanted to be in front of people. Yeah. But I had no access. Like, I've never met an actor, you know, from Tipton, Missouri. I didn't know how this would ever work.

I knew at 13 I was going to be on Saturday Night Live. I knew that then. I'm like, I'm going to be on that show. So then I choose. What am I going to do? Tell my parents I'm going to be on saturday night live i knew that then i'm like i'm gonna be on that show so then i choose what am i gonna do tell my parents i'm gonna be a theater major they're not gonna pay for that yeah so um by the third year i realized to be a successful politician you had to be either a from a political family or you have to be um uh from a wealthy family or you have to be the smartest person in any room you walk into and i was none of those things so i was like this is not gonna be satisfying um or you know poli-sci major then you'd either teach or um you know be a lawyer i was like i'm not gonna do any of this

stuff did you once you got sober i'm still just curious like how did the how did the catholicism bleed into other stuff i think because you're looking to reject it so hard so that that forced its hand of fuck you i'm gonna you want me to behave uh-uh i'm gonna misbehave as deeply and as irresponsibly as i possibly can give me a highlight reel well using all my kids when i watch well using all kinds of drugs you know and uh ones you really shouldn't do yep and um and you have to in chicago uh yeah got no no actually columbia missouri where the university of missouri was oh interesting yeah a couple buddies who uh were junkies and uh yeah that's wild i dabbled in everything yeah yeah i was i was like because it was it was it

was a response to that that um very repressed upbringing i'd say that and also you're reckless to begin with yes yeah but but i'm pursuing the recklessness as well right just to test it because there's always that you know feeling of immortality at a certain age yeah and you have to just get out of yourself i think that's the other part of the ad i need to escape who i am and what's going on yeah i don't think it's easy to be in your body i don't i think being hot being a human being is difficult anytime you do drugs you spend the first half an hour or 45 minutes going are you dying am i dying are you dying like you're risking death to escape this consciousness right and it's and i got some bad news for everybody sometimes it's worth

it a buddy of mine said one time when you're when you're in your teens and 20s you think you're immortal and you're kind of right yeah you're just kind of right yeah yeah all right final questions so the biggest thing you've done that helped you was 12-step program. Yeah. Biggest thing you've done is 12-step program and TM work. You can't figure out how to make it a part of your life. What were the big three or four biggest kind of ways you've helped yourself? Performing.

Okay. Yes. Making that decision that I'm going to be an actor. And I'll just say when I made that decision, I had zero doubt that I was going to be a success at this. And then when I moved to Chicago, I was on stage five nights a week, either in class or doing shows. The greatest time of my life. Yeah. Just doing it and doing it and doing it.

And then hard work. I do hard work all the time. I don't care. Look, I just moved to this new place. There's literally a hundred boxes to unpack and I'm doing it. I had moved from one place to the other cause the other place was a disaster. And I moved in. I'm like, what the fuck? The shower leaks, there's mold in the dishwasher. All the faucets are Brown. And I just made the decision in one week, like I'm leaving, you're giving me my money back. I packed it up and I

moved on and I found a place in three days. Like when set my mind to shit it's going to go down that's it if you set your mind to shit it's going to fucking happen so i know i have that capability and i'm very proud of that and so when it comes to having to you know look i only started doing stand-up 12 years ago because i had my fifth kid. And I made a decision then. I was like, you know what? I better always have a job I can create for myself. And I did it. And I'm very happy and proud of myself that I did that.

I know a lot of people still, I've never typed a special. That's what I'm going to go talk to Greg about, actually. But I'm so happy it's there. But you do get to be a certain age in town and uh you know you're less you're you're you're less valuable right and so you have to create your own value and you can create to me i still believe this the best part of my career is still ahead of me and it can be and it's easy all you got to do is do it get out of your own way apply yourself and who knows maybe a year from now because of this podcast and it's public then

i really have to do something maybe i will what do you mean well do all those things that i've been intending to do right right go ahead and do it it's that it's just easy go ahead and do it stop procrastinating which is part of the ad2 yeah anyway so determination program making a bet on yourself i would like people whenever people talk in that sort of manifestation language i always want to stop and say you have to have talent yeah you have because there's so many people that only hear that has anyone said you're the blankest person i've ever met has anyone said you're the funniest person i've ever met best looking smartest fastest whatever it is right whatever it is then make a decision in that direction it can't just be you know people move out here to be an actor

and it's like have you ever acted for no but i get and it's like hey man it's like moving to silicon valley and being like i don't really computers aren't really my thing but like i feel like i'll get into them yeah once i move there like that's how i am probably design department yeah yeah exactly so you have to have talent that's true um okay so you have to have recognizable talent let's say five people in your life have said you're the i can't believe how x you are i can't believe you're the blankest person i've ever met yeah all this stuff even the drinking it sounds like you were drinking to it maybe it felt like you were becoming more yourself but you were actually becoming less yourself yeah that's

probably yeah and it's those decisions are always like a kind to me bad decisions are about denying your true essence 100 um like the true essence is on stage five nights a week like that's your real to me your real thing yeah it's fucking dave kechner hey nb hey chief hey chief we used to say that Hey Chief I don't even know what we're doing Alright you're great I love you

Love you too buddy Good shit Everybody wants to have They want to have it great My man All you have to do Is open up your hand My man