Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Jay Leno

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

Neal Brennan interviews Jay Leno (Jay Leno's Garage + The Tonight Show + more) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 13:40 Workaholic 19:55 Money 39:34 Letterman / Late Night Wars 50:35 Relationships 59:54 Competitive 1:14:18 Movie Question ---------------------------------------------------------- https://nealbrennan.com for tickets to Neal's tour Brand New Neal Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Carlsberg Canada, Inc., Waterloo, Ontario. Hi, I'm Neil Brennan. This is a podcast called Blocks based on my Netflix special where I talked about my blocks, things that make me feel like something's wrong with me, alone in the world, etc. And then I have people I know come on and they tell me about their blocks,

things that make them feel alone in the world. I know. It's not you're the worst. I'm sorry. I don't mean that. It's just that. No, it's not you're the worst you're the no i'm sorry i don't mean it's just like no it's not your bag but i want to talk about it i have empathy for it i understand it yes i mean all comedians have some sort of flaw it's what gets them through the day you know it's like comedians to go and stay drunk if they do well i did well and i was drunk and i did great or well of course i didn't do that well i was drunk you know i'm saying that they always

have to have that crutch right the idea is when you can work without the crutch you're actually much better off i don't think you believe that blocks was a crutch that's what that just sounded like like the crutch being i what i'm talking about like emo i don't mean yeah i don't mean as a crutch it's just that you can get around it yeah i'm doing an hour now that's got nothing zero well there you go emo content you know these the obstacles in your path to keep no no the obstacle is the way right yeah that is the path yes yeah that's that's what that's it's most of the path is just people's i would have done this if it wasn't for this no but that's always

going to be there yeah yeah that we want to talk i want to talk about that all right well this is what he texted me one blocks air this is jay leno by the way ladies and gentlemen thank you one of the uh greatest comedians to ever do it and uh he would host The Tonight Show for a couple couple years 22 23 pretty good pretty good all things considered yo Neil just watched your special and unlike many I see it truly was special touching funny gut-wrenching funny again heartfelt funny threenies. Everything you said was back with a joke. Every comedian that sees it can identify with every emotion you portrayed. No gimmicks.

No tricks. Just pure original thoughts that could only come from you. You are a comedian who thinks he's a writer. Writers can't convey pain on stage the way you did. Thanks for making what we do truly an art form. A loyal fan. Jay Leno.eno oh that's pretty good no i didn't realize i wrote that but yeah well you got into the vikings and started texting yeah that's it yeah viking that's what i do take a lot of drugs yeah okay here's what i'm interested in

okay in you because i know that you're from a generation that is not squishy. Like, you know, it's a bit, what I do is a little squishy. It's like you're from a generation where comedically you guys were in hostile environments. Well, no, no. I think maybe you misinterpreted it. I don't consider it squishy. I consider it brave because most people don't have the ability to portray it. So it comes across as phony. You have the ability to portray it,

so I believe you. It's like when I see someone playing a gay person in pain, it looks funny. When I see a gay person really projecting what it's like to be put upon, oh, man, I really empathize with it. So that's the brave person, not the straight person. You know what I mean? It's the same sort of thing, if that makes any sense. No. Well, what's funny is I didn't think Jerry Seinfeld would like Three Mics or Blocks. And he's like, no, I love it.

Why would you? Because I just assume you guys like pure stand-up. But then. No, no. The stand-up, but then... No, no. The stand-up you do when you're playing the sand and gravel convention in Vegas, and you've got to get those jobs, and you're bobbing and weaving, and you're boxing and you're fighting, and you're still standing at the end. Oh, whoo, that's great.

Well, that's what I was going to say, is where stand-up is now. There's more latitude in terms of what people will watch. Whereas Jerry always says like he was – you guys were opening for like Gloria Gaynor and like hostile. That's right. You're like I made – when I was at the comedy store, I remember I said to Mitzi – because at that time, Richie – we called him Richie. He was Richard Pryor but you know him as Richard Pryor they all call him Richie we call him Richie yeah anyway he was getting ready to do the first tape live at the Sunset Strip his his movie stand-up which was like one of the first

people ever do that so I said can I go on after Richard every night you know because then I would find out if something was funny I mean he would blow the room people and he was announced right it wasn't like he just popped in it was a richard prior show working out so people came to see him work out what he was going to do three weeks from now whatever it might be and just killing the room just right doing an hour and a half whatever and then i would go on and i realized i didn't have an hour's worth of material i had maybe 18 minutes but if if you really counted what got a laugh after richie oh because you were just kind of not doing nearly as well right i mean i was whenever i see comedians go you know i've been doing this

bit for like a year it's not we'll get rid of it right the fact that it worked once in denver well that's great yeah it's like a bad pickup line do you work once with this girl in cleveland okay but that girl was really stupid and she was drunk okay it has to work with a woman's sense forget the line yeah do something else exactly yeah because you it's like you guys were it they all the jokes had to work you couldn't be right right like em emotion there were there was not enough stand-up every six to nine seconds you need to laugh explain how because i was thinking about the the idea of making a living as a comedian in that you started in 69 yeah it's good it's positive we're both sounding like it's sad like Like, oh. Well, it was different because then I was in Boston. That's 53 years ago by my calculations?

Yeah, which was sort of the height of the anti-war Vietnam demonstrations. You know, every week the Boston Common had protests and stuff. So usually you would go on. A lot of colleges had what they called Hootenanny Night. It sounds funny. But it was mostly folks stop your war machine man you know and the theater would be like uh the stage would be dark the people flashlights click stop your war machine click and then they'd run over there

and say stop your war machine you know all these sort of yeah and then you're doing comedy it just seemed in a like what hey we're serious people man but so you had to try to get on like basic poetry readings yeah you've gone to poetry and just if you got a laugh oh my god it was unbelievable if you got a laugh it was like the greatest thing ever and there really weren't a lot of people wanting to be comedians i mean i would go i would drive to the improv in new york from boston from boston almost every night to try and get on there i repeat every night yeah just about yeah foot through four hours minimum now you could do it in two and a half if you put your Boston almost every night to try and get on there. I repeat, every night. Yeah, just about. Four hours, minimum.

No, you could do it in two and a half if you put your foot in it. This guy's been in two recent accidents. No one knows how. Go ahead. I would drive to the improv every night to try and work on because I'd get down there and it was mostly Broadway singers. So Bud would say,

okay, three singers, then you okay five singers because there just weren't people wanting to be comedians yeah but i remember in the audition line i met freddie prince i met richard lewis and then the idea of making a living at it how many people i mean there were 20 people making a living at stand-up at that point? Depends what you call living, really. I mean, you're eating Top Ramen. Over 60 grand. Oh, no. Again, fine. Or whatever 60 grand was.

What I used to do was I used to go into bars in Boston that had music acts. And I'd put a $50 bill on the bar, and I'd say to the bartender, let me go. We're going to do comedy. Okay, let me go. If I get laughs, give me the 50 back.

If I don't get laughs, you keep the 50. And I went through about a little under $500 doing that. Until a couple of times, people were, oh, kid, that was right. Here's your 50 back. And the other 10 times? Come back next Tuesday

if you want. Oh, thank you. And they kept the 50? How much money did you lose doing that? I lose about $450. Because you didn't get laughs? That's because, or they welched. They didn't think I was funny enough

or, nah kid, we don't want comedy, thank you. You know, you get up there, you do something, you got nothing,

you know. But after a few times of doing that, it was like, hey, here's a 50. You want to come back again? All right, come back next week. No money, but come back.

Okay. And then you kind of built from there. So there were just no clubs? No, there were no comedy clubs. It didn't exist. I worked strip clubs. You go on in between strippers at the Hillbilly Ranch in Boston and places like that. I mean, I remember working with Miss Cow.

Of course. And I Need a Man. Those were the two strippers. And I got friendly with two of them. And these were big women, you know. And they were all, had shaved heads, but they wore wigs. And we, I remember we would drive out to,

was it Fort Devens? And they would put together a giant champagne glass. You know, they had, like, nails now. Ring, ring, ring. And they put this thing, and they filled it with water. And then they would take a bath. And I would stand and tell jokes know, they have like nails now. Ring, ring, ring. And they put this thing, they fill it with water and then they would take a bath and I would, I would stand and tell jokes. And they were very,

they were like 40 and I was like 19. And they were like very protective towards me. So one day I'm telling jokes. Hey kid, you suck. I'll do that.

And she goes, shut up. You shut up. And the stripper gets out of the tub and he grabs the guy, bam, breaks his nose and blood all over the pool out of the tub and he grabs the guy, bam, breaks his nose. And blood all over the pool, all over the fake champagne glass.

And she gets back in the water and she's washing the blood off. I'm trying to talk to her. I mean, it was great. It was like a wonderful experience. Washing the blood. Yeah, it was wonderful. They had a strip club. Some of the guys weren't turned on until she did that.

Yeah, exactly. So stand-up wise, it was the Wild West. But you have to understand if you got anything at all you know something when i came to la i realized oh my god these people all want to be comedians too i had never met a comedian in boston anybody else wanted to do do this so it seems so you're the only one at the poetry reading or whatever the war machine stuff. There were two kids from Harvard named Franken and Davis. Sure. Al Franken.

Al Franken's coming on any week now. Yeah. And I remember meeting him at one of the – oh, you guys do comedy too? And they were a little more intellectual and stuff, but good. I was like, oh, okay. So that was – it wasn't like there wasn't anybody but it just wasn't a lot you just didn't meet you know a family there was no yeah so you're doing it it's a real like leap leap of faith like i have to do this i don't even know what this is it seems like the whole it

seems like prior made a lot of money. Johnny Carson, Richard Pryor. I wasn't thinking of making a lot of money. Alan King. I was just thinking of just something about it. It's like when you're a kid and you discover girls. Why am I attracted to that? I just am. And the same thing with comedy. It was like, oh, that's it.

Because I really, I wasn't. My dad was a prize fighter. He could fight. And I remember he taught me to box. I was terrible, terrible fighter. And my dad said, you know, son, I'll tell you one thing. You can really take a beating. And I went, well, thanks, son.

I always, so my dad was there, so I always tried to, you just got the crappy that made me. I said, Pop, I'm not good. He goes, no, that's okay, son. I'm proud of you. You know how to take a beating. Thanks, Pop. I appreciate that. How long were you taking. He goes, no, that's okay, son. But I'm proud of you. You know how to take a beating. Thanks, Pop. I appreciate that.

How long were you taking beatings for? Well, not very long. For real? Like six months? A year? No. Two months? It was when I was in high school.

You know, my dad, come on. Oh, you're talking, so you're not talking about stand-up. You're talking about actual fighting. Actually fighting. Yeah. No, no, yeah. I mean, just getting the crap beat at, you know. By your father?

No, no. Not by my father. By other fighters. Got it. You know, my son had, because I couldn't't bring my i don't want to hit a guy in the face so i was going to say if it was your father we could do that one man show yeah yeah no no my father was great yeah um and then how long did it take you to have any semblance of a clue about stand-up well again it depends what you call a clue you know um i used to me a little bit. Harvard had a thing called the Nameless Cafe. And my college roommate, Gene Bronstein, who wanted to write sitcoms and stuff, we kind of hooked up as a team and did a little bit of that. So you didn't fail by yourself. And then I joined a comedy group, but they didn't want to work as much as I did. And I split off and just went on my own from that point. But any place I could get on

stage, I remember being booked at Playboy clubs and you get paid like $300 for a weekend in Kansas, but it was 600 to fly there. So I had a job at a car dealership, and I'd save enough money to fly and go to the gig and make half my airfare to come back. But it just seemed like, what, and quit show business? So I enjoyed it. It was fun. Yeah, it's a fun thing to be able to do.

Right, yeah, exactly. So this life that you have now unimaginable it was unimaginable then but it's basically the same thing i still think the same way like if if i don't work this week i think i'm broke i go okay i gotta get because i can't be spending money that i don't have you know we talked we talked about this with seinfeld this is the big thing you know, we talked, we talked about this with Seinfeld. This is the big thing. You know, I, I always wanted to live on what I made as a standup.

Anything else was fake or temporary. So every tonight show check, I never, I just put, put in the bank. I want to live on what I'm, I make as a standup. I don't know if you know this,

but if you're listening or watching the host, the tonight show makes a great deal of money oh yeah it was over 20 million dollars a year back back in those days oh yeah back in those days my best year was 37 million dollars pretty good and but that was including stand-up that was a big stuff so but the best thing was you know I was with ICM and they called me in one day and they said yeah we're to drop you as a client. And I go, why would I? He goes, yeah, are you good?

Yeah, yeah, I was opening for, you know, John Davidson. He was doing all that kind of stuff. They said, you're just not. This is in 70. No, this is in 80s. They said, you're just not the kind of guy whose name's going to be in the paper every day. I said, well, yeah yeah i'm not that kind of guy okay so we'll just part if the job comes up with me okay thanks so we broke off with that

and then boom two years later i i'm hosting the tonight show so i saved 10 of a gazillion dollars that was fabulous yeah four oh yeah four hundred something yeah all right because there's a part of me that when I hear that, I've heard you say talk about the money stuff, and I go, is that like a I'm a regular guy, blue collar thing? Or is it truly like you viscerally are afraid that you're going to go broke? Yeah, I am a huge believer in low self-esteem. I think it's the key to success. I don't want to believe in it, but unfortunately, it believes in me.

No, but I mean the idea that if you don't think you're the smartest person in the room, you'll listen. I mean, I saw many people that get shows. Who did the lighting? You're fired. I'm doing the lighting. Most people can't do anything.

I like to think I can do one thing. So consequently, I have other things like directing and lighting. Just hire the best people you can and let can do one thing. So consequently, I have other things like directing and lighting. Just hire the best people you can and let them do their job. And that's what worked for me. I mean, when we did the Tonight Show, I had it set up. Anybody could pull the chain and stop the train. You know what I'm saying?

What's that mean? Debbie would get mad at me, our producer, because I would say, you know, one of the interns said they didn't like that joke. Will you stop talking to the interns? I said, well, let's. I mean, there are people who watch the show. They have no vested interest. If they think the joke sucks, the joke sucks.

But I see so many people get talked into thinking they're good by other people. No, the only people. This is the only business where the affection of strangers is more important than friends or loved ones because they're the ones that really keep the lights yeah keep the lights on you know so to me if strangers and people don't like it well that's good okay because you already have these people they have a vested interest yeah and you're in that position you have to seek out sort of disbelievers and be like do you what don't you like about it? And then go, okay, tell me. And they're a little afraid and everyone else is afraid.

Right, right. But I always wanted it so they wouldn't be afraid. And that worked pretty well. That worked well for me. People told me, you know, you weren't good tonight. It was really bad. What was wrong? Really?

Oh, yeah. But, I mean, don't you think that's important? You really want to be lied to? No, I agree. No, no, but I'm just surprised. I used to hate that Tonight Show had an applause sign or a laugh sign and i go was this funny or yeah not you know because i would see there would be comedians who come on the tonight show and they do fine get big applause they do that same set in the club nothing just because it was predictable or there's just

something not spontaneous about it you know so when i go out and try jokes on the weekend and i would bring those shows those jokes back to the show monday tuesday wednesday and they got a big laugh bigger than the written jokes we had written that day because i had tried it i'd worked out a little bit. And that's the thing, because when you do a monologue that's written for you, you just read it, and people go to see you, they're like, well, this sucks.

And by the same thing, when I go out on the road, people go, wow, that was really funny. I didn't know you, I thought you just like talk to people at the desk. No, no, I do stand up. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah, like that's the thing I can barely, the desk is like I can barely do it. Right.

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It works like an app. It's a good app. It doesn't feel fishy. It just feels like a good app like any other app. They got images from seat views, which I actually like when I look at my tickets to see like, how are people looking at me? You hate to encourage procrastination,

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actually is there like a creeping fear that you're gonna have money obviously it's like a dream or something like you actually believe that it's possible you could run out of money. Well, probably not run out of money. Let's say, if I go more than a week without doing my act somewhere, I'm dyslexic, so I have nothing written down. So I just try to keep it all in my head. And if I don't work at least once or twice a week, the stage is not a normal place to be, you know, but when you do it constantly, it becomes second nature. You know, I always used to try and do my act and write a letter with this hand at the same time to try and compartmentalize in my brain. I'd be doing the jokes. I used to practice by doing, I pledge allegiance to the flag of states america and to the republic for which it stands one nation and then i'd read

what i wrote and it would the more i did it the more it made sense you were writing your act no i was writing the pledge of allegiance i was writing no i'm reciting the pledge of allegiance okay while i'm writing about something else okay and what this gives you as a comedian to me when i'm on stage if the guy over here talking i'm thinking oh it's it's a big fat guy with a red tie okay as i'm as the jokes are kind of falling out of your mouth what can i say about when i turn what appears to be spontaneous it's really something i've been thinking about for about a minute and a half before i get you know does that make sense well you know of course you know okay yeah yeah uh that's interesting that's a good technique well you just compartmentalize

your head you just take if you're you're we're doing that anyway yeah your act is so familiar to you yeah so you can literally fall asleep on stage where am i because it's just falling out of your head yeah um so money you're not you couldn't possibly be worried so you just like working you like that's the thing is i see you as just like you're like i never asked what i mean i asked what a job paid but i never i whenever i see comedians go i'm not going there for 10 grand okay what are you doing on a tuesday yeah it's worth 10 grand really you know i never wanted to be one of those people that turned down a job because it wasn't enough money that always seemed you're only getting eight grand for this so yeah again perfect what else could he be doing

exactly no but you know what i'm saying i mean i never want to be that elitist that you well no all right so you just like working you you've always said like i need the money i'll tell you what the thing was i was watching johnny carson one night this is the key i think to johnny carson dean martin came on and dean martin and johnny's dressed in his sort of midwestern his johnny carson suit yes you know He had his own line of suits. Yeah. Yeah. But they were middle price. They weren't high. Yeah. And they were like JCPenney or like.

One of those places. Yeah. It wasn't. It was like intentional. Not JCPenney. A little more upscale. Right. A little.

Anyway. And Dean Martin, you know, he's just like the Italian singer, you know. And Johnny goes, oh, boy,

I like those shoes. And they were Ferragamo's. Now this is like 1968. And Dean goes, yeah, these shoes are 300 bucks. And Johnny, generally, because that was a time when really good shoes were maybe $60. Now they'd be $1,200 probably. And I saw Johnny go, wow.

And right away, everybody in the audience identified with Johnny. Yeah. You know, because Dean Martin was on this pedestal, and Johnny was the every guy. And whether he did that deliberately, but I don't think he did. I think he was generally surprised. I mean, Johnny drove a Corvette. He didn't drive a Rolls Royce. He didn't drive a Ferrari.

He drove a Corvette. It's sort of an aspirational vehicle. If you're a plumber with your own business and you're really successful, well, you can get yourself a Corvette. I thought you were regular until you said $37 million. And then that changed your whole thing. I rest my case. No, but yeah.

Okay. So it's, you like working. It's not about the, it's not about like, I need to need to save this pile of money and that pile of money. You just like doing the job. I like doing the job. And it's the thing you say instead of I like doing the job. Like I always say to my accountant, look, I work and my money relaxes, okay? You know, here, throw another couple of grand on the pile.

And if the pile's the same a year from now, perfect. I don't want anything that has minimal risk if the pile is exactly as high it was when i left fine it's a little higher well that's great you're doing a good job if it's if it drops below we gotta protect it yeah you're just yeah okay so you're a comic you're a club comic you become arguably one of the strongest in the country in the early mid-80s right arguably arguably whatever you're in the conversation okay yeah you and and and it seemed like you always crushed at the comedy store and you were great and um well my attitude was when you get good someplace get out of there and go to the next place.

Go to the next place where you're not good and get good there. The Comedy Store was a great breeding ground, but it also became, as comics, I think, were somewhat inherently lazy. You go to where you get the laughs as opposed to going to where you're not getting laughs. But most people, I just go to this club because they like me there. It's like in the old days, I just do colleges. College kids know me. I just do nightclub. Well, if you're a good comedian, you should be able to play just about any audience.

I mean, I booked myself into Oral Roberts once just to see. I just wanted to see. And they give you, you know, no sex. You know, I said, yeah, fine. And they were fine. They laughed at no drugs. I said, yeah, fine. And they were fine. They laughed at political jokes. They were a good audience. They just didn't want sex or drugs.

And sometimes it's, as a comic, it's interesting you put limitations on yourself to see are you really funny or is it just obscenities or ever getting a shock out of people or whatever it might be. Okay, so you're arguably one of so you're you're one of the arguably one of the better you're one of the better stronger committee you're a headliner okay then you start he doesn't like any of it then you start doing the tonight show then you

start you're on letterman once a month well i did the tonight show went very well and then a couple of shots weren't that strong and then they weren't using me see the trouble was when you grow up where'd you grow up outside philly and outside okay so maybe you have this too as a kid i never called my parents friends by their first names you know like when i still like consider my mom an authority figure. Right. You don't have to say Mr. Carson. Say Johnny. Thank you, Mr. Carson. Jay, it's Johnny.

Okay, Johnny. I mean, my natural thing is, and Letterman and I know each other from the comedy store. In fact, Letterman and I got our start. We were writing jokes for Jimmy Walker along with Byron you know so we would have these kind of things and that's a writing staff that's now worth i know look at byron's the richest 1.9 billion that's nine i know i know 1.9 billion dollars worth of i know nah i know sure he turned on most of the jokes but lederman was the first show where i could really be myself like i knew lederman got nervous sure he turned on most of the jokes. But Letterman was the first show where I could really be myself.

Like I knew Letterman got nervous before he went on. So whenever I do Letterman in New York, I go downstairs. There's some Italian meatball. I get a huge meatball sandwich, you know. And I would say, what time does Letterman come down? Oh, he comes down at a quarter to five. So I'd stand right by the makeup thing. I have the sandwich.

And I have meatballs. I have sauce over there. And Letterman goes, how can you eat, you're on it 20 minutes, how can you, you know, and he goes, no,

I don't want any of it, you know, and he, it used to be very funny and then I got to the point where I'd bring the sandwich out, they'd please walk it down, oh,

Dave, Dave, you gotta try this, and Letterman, he, you know, the fun thing about Letterman is we both made each other laugh.

Letterman is one of the greatest wordsmiths. The ability to say beverage instead of drink. You know, just picking the right word all the time. And with Letterman, the joke was always on the way to the joke. It was never the joke. I remember David said, well, you're in California. You know, I asked the old man some place the other day dave and uh you know just seeing the gang you know seeing the gang oh you know text he's he's still text you know and we just and letterman thought

that kind of thing so we just did that a lot it became very natural and very funny because he knew my rhythm i knew his but we were the same age so i could, Dave, what kind of tie is it? I remember when Dave was embarrassed because he was on the cover of Success Magazine. So I go, Dave, ladies and gentlemen, Dave was on the cover. Now, he didn't know this. He goes, yeah, put that down. No, Dave, you should be proud of it. I said, you know, Dave, I'm on the cover of Super Success Magazine. It was twice as big.

My fist race was twice as big. And it said Super Success. And then Letterman realized,. My fist race was twice as big. And it said super success. And then Letterman realized, oh, that's what the joke is. That's why he's doing it. And I mean, it was just so, it was the most fun I ever had in show business. I would do Letterman every month and just come on. And sometimes it worked better than other times. But it was just a spontaneity.

And the fact, it was the first time i could really dave nice tie what look at the tie you know and and then he would be embarrassed and you know it was just great okay this this that segues into what i'm saying you all right so your your your letterman persona your nightclub persona of the clips i've seen like from the comedy store documentary was like very masculine and you're a fucking ball buster well by nature it's like who i feel like you're most at home with like five guys just shooting the shit right and then then you start the tonight. Which you can't do that. Okay. You wind up, you do that way, you win the battle and lose the war. I was a comedian for the opening monologues,

and then I was a host. And there were plenty of times I'm talking to some guest, and it's going, I've got the line. Just let it go. It's the fat guy in the red shirt. Whatever. I would just let it go you know it's the fat guy in the red shirt whatever I would just I would just let it go

okay and that guest would come back but a lot of times it wouldn't go to other shows because they've been they've been made the brunt of the joke

you know the trick is to know when to like people say oh you watered it down for tonight yes because the tonight show

was watered it was a watered down kind of that's what it was it was meant to go out to me. It's 1130 at night. People are just going to bed. They want to have a laugh. You try to keep it as light and fun as much as you can. That was the job. You're hired to do a job. You know, I'm always amazed when I talk to meetings go, I went to this, it was a Christian school and they told me to be clean. I just did all my, you know, filthy stuff. And I go, and what happened i like it mad really so what did you i mean yeah if you don't want the job don't take the job in the first place but i always like people that

that think they're iconoclasts and then no you're not you're just not doing if you don't want if if you're going to make don't don't take the job if you don't like it. Did you know when you would guest host before, you would guest host on Mondays, and who would write the monologue? You and a staff or like Johnny's writers? Well, no, I would write the monologue myself for when I was guest hosting.

But if you have to understand how that worked, people were guest hosting because you if you have to understand how that worked, people were guest hosting because you were not a threat to Johnny. They weren't looking for comics that were good. They were looking for comics that were good enough. Yeah. I mean, that's another whole interesting thing too because there were a dozen guest hosts

in the early 80s. Different people do it all the time. All comics? Usually, usually. Well, sometimes it would be John Davidson or some person. Second John Davidson reference. Thank you. The listeners get a free taco.

There you go. There were a number of comics. They were all being represented by the same firm. And they called me up and they said, listen, we can get $25,000 a night to guest host. That's what we're asking for our clients. And if you join us, we have a strong name. I said, well, you know, I'm getting $512 because that was scale. They said, well, we'll get $25,000.

I knew Johnny owned the show, and we all got about the same ratings. So they put me on instead of the other guys. They would save a couple of hundred thousand dollars a month. So I became the permanent host. That was part of the reason. It wasn't the only one, but it was part of it because I didn't ask how much I paid. I said, whatever it is.

And you just saw it as like a job, not like a job in a way of like, there's this thing now where like, bring your whole self to work. You know that thing? Like bring your hobbies and bring your show and talk about your fan. And it's like, from my point of view,

I'm like, I don't want to know any of this. I don't want to. No. And so you just went and saw it as like, I'm not exactly being Jay Leno comedian. I'm being Jay Leno. Well, the great thing about this show was I could be in show business without being in show business. I mean, I could be around it. I could be around it.

So you're doing this as like a day job's the wrong word, but like separate from stand-up comedian Jay Leno, right? Well, it is separate from stand-up. Okay. Comedians start making fun of you publicly. Boo-hoo, please. Okay. Tell me, but like. Oh, yeah.

Why do I care? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean. But isn't there a part of you that's like, oh. Well, there's a part of you that says, if you play football, who do you tackle? The guy with the ball. Okay.

I was going to say your wife. Go ahead. Everybody loves the comedians. Oh, man, we heard about your set. You bombed. That was too bad, man. Man, we love you. I love to watch comedians embrace the people who fell in front of them.

There's that story from one of the books about how you used to tape everybody's Tonight Show set. And if they bombed, you'd be like, you want to come over and watch? Oh, yeah, we used to do that you know it's hilarious yeah bombing so you didn't pretend to be sympathetic no no i was also sympathetic but that's okay but if you're bad but you can be there's a reason you're bad right you know and the reason is obvious you did the set five nights before at the improv and it wasn't that strong why do you think it would be strong then yeah okay so guys are making fun because this is i've heard stories of you calling guys

who'd made fun of you yeah on the phone and that's but that's that's and i hilarious and i don't and very interesting to me i don't yell at them i i don't get mad because i did the same thing i was you know i was making fun of guys too. So I was just curious how it was from the other side. I remember one guy said, now I'm not, I'm D'Leno, I'm just D'Leno. I said, so I call this guy and I go, look, it's fine. You don't like me. That's fine. You don't know me. So it doesn't offend me that you don't like me. But there are two shows. There's Letterman's show and there's Lenoir's show.

Now, assuming you kill on Letterman, and it's unbelievable, you'll get asked back all the time. But if you go on Letterman and it's not that good and they don't like you, where do you go? Yeah. Do you want to do my show at some point? You can do it. It's okay.

It's fine. But just be prepared for the consequences. Don't make it so personal. I mean, if you trash something that I do that didn't work, that's fine. If you say I'm a horrible person, well, that's a whole different thing. I remember Hicks had a bit about you. And then I found out you knew. I was he you know here's the thing i met hicks when he was 14. and i was down there and wanted to talk to comedians and then hicks gets up and walks out of the room i didn't know

who he was but i knew they asked you the club asked you to come and talk to some of the up and comers yeah yeah you walk in you're talking to someone's a 14 year old it was bill hicks yeah and he walked out right and i said to the guys at club i said i don't know who that kid is but i'm sure he's the funniest is he the funniest one here he goes yeah he's really funny because well he's pissed because he's better than me and that's fine and you have to believe it whether it's true or not yeah so i got to be really good friends with hicks and his parents and i gave him advice and some he took and some he didn't but much like any sort of parent kid situation you begin to resent yeah you know it sounds like he resented you from the minute go no not from the minute ago okay because i was still friends with his you know i was no but when from he was 14 i was friends with his, you know, I was. No, but when he was 14.

I was friends with his parents. Got it. No, here's what happened. He called, he wanted to come on The Tonight Show and do his Jesus thing. I remember. Yeah. And at the time that was considered, you know. Yeah.

And I said, you know, they'll just edit it. No, screw you. I can do it on Letterman. Let me do it. I go, it's not me not letting you do it, okay? It's a censor. I'll let you do it. They'll screw you. I can do it on Letterman. Let me do it. I go, it's not me not letting you do it, okay? It's a censor. I'll let you do it. They'll cut it up. No, F you. And he just, he was just furious at me. Then he went on shows he's doing on Letterman. And of course they edited it too. They cut it all up. And then, oh, he kind of backtracked with me a little bit. I said, all

right, it's fine. You know, I'm the bad guy here. You know, he didn't like that I was selling out by doing the Tonight Show. I think I was doing some Dorito commercials. We're in a sellout business. You know, I mean, I'm sorry. You go on TV. Is that a sellout? I don't know.

It's just like, to what? But yeah, I always wondered with you, I think, are you a ball buster being nice or a nice guy being a ball buster i like think the second good but when guys are making money you must a party must be like oh i want to the italian the fighter well not again they they don't i don't know this guy but even publicly mocking you must be like oh i want to hit back even when you called guys it was genuinely out of like well if you talk to anybody i called i never yelled at them i never said you suck i'll teach you you'll never do it i never use that you know who i am that's my favorite thing whatever whenever a celebrity do you know who i am i don't know any

some of the actually never said that but they always quoted it in magazines and stuff and no and I became friends with a lot of guys who because you're a kid

you're starting out you think that's what you have to do you have to trash somebody to get ahead which I never quite get you know

I mean like when I do interviews they say who don't you like I don't want to talk about who don't I like I mean

please you know it's a hard business yeah you know everybody makes you're gonna bump into people well yeah so the stuff with letterman with the hindsight what do you think looking back at it well i don't know was it a waste of time was it petty was it small do you wish you handled it differently you know I can say, but I probably do the same thing. I'm not sure what I did wrong. It started that, oh, I took the Tonight Show away from Letterman. He says he never had it. He never had it.

Yeah. But the reason he didn't have it was because he was so good. Here's the thing. Johnny was on 1130. David was doing better at 1230. I mean, he was killing, making huge money, all this kind of stuff. When I guest hosted, I got the same ratings as Johnny. Okay. So NBC said, whoa, we got a hit at 1130 with this new guy and Letterman's killing it at 12.30. If we get rid of Jay, he'll go to ABC or CBS.

We move Dave down, there's no guarantee he'll be a success. Let's keep Letterman where he was. And although Johnny did want Letterman, that was Johnny's choice. The time slot belonged to NBC. And Dave had kind of pissed people off a little bit too. Johnny's choice. Johnny, the time slot belonged to NBC. Yeah. And Dave had kind of pissed people off a little bit too. All right, so I'll play this and just stop it whenever you want. In my group, the funniest was Jay.

There were other people that would come in and put on a better show, but just funny to funny, it was always Jay. What do you think of that looking back on it the rivalry and the late night wars and all that stuff how do you categorize it in your mind well it's um overall it's embarrassing because i don't want to be the guy who's uh pissed off because oh i didn't get so-and-so because i didn't truly feel that way you You didn't feel that way? No, no. Thought? You know, I love Letterman. Mm-hmm.

You know, there's not, and you probably know this as a comic. You go through life when you're starting out, and you meet people who just don't get you. I mean, they might get it a little bit, but, you know, it's like when you're dating and the girl goes, why do you have to do a set every night? Why do you have to the club every night okay get a new girlfriend okay okay because this is first i'm sorry girlfriend you're second you might tie it but you're never going to be in front of it you know and then you you come to a place that comedy so you meet letterman you meet richard lewis you meet other people that really think like you and you form a bond

i could never dislike i mean was i hurt by a lot of things sure sure that's okay but there's hurt in that in that like it was personal or hurt in like fuck this is i can't we we both have these amazing perches like we're we're both the top of the heap in show business you know i thought it was the thing i liked about it was i got the ratings dave got the critics and that seemed fair and and you know something if you flipped it that would be okay too i would take either i mean i think we both did okay that way but truly one of the funniest people. And I felt he and I were the perfect foil feature. Because any time spent with Letterman, I always left with more material than I came in with. In the sense that, oh, what's the thing they said? Oh, yeah, let's expand that.

Yeah, we would have a conversation and we'd both be laughing, and there was no greater joy than putting something in that Letterman genuinely laughed at because Letterman didn't always find things funny. I mean, one of my favorite moments, there was a comedian named Fred Travolina. Do you remember? Vaguely. He was an impressionist, but of the old school, you know,

tuxedo Vegas. Oh, here's Bob Hope at a party. And he just hounded Letterman go put me on put me there because we know you all know you know all these things from the comedy story you know you feel guilty you don't have so let him and puts him on yeah and he sits down dave how you doing so and so and dave asked him a question he goes dave you know with my crazy mind and dave you know my crazy mind he's 11 yeah yeah he's just so uncomfortable with this line of quote anyway with my wacky mind you know how i think and i'm just screaming dragging him into his horrible setups yeah yeah just it just made me

laugh and that was we didn't have that when dave and i got together i would say something he would say something scathe or snarky and i would try to come back with them oh some it was it was the greatest time in my career it was the most fun on tv i believe you and what i'm curious about is as it got you got bigger he got bigger rivalry all that competition is there a party that feels like uh oh shit i wish it was still we were closer like the relationship maintained i don't know i i think if we ever did get together it would immediately go back to write what it was you know like in 78 i mean i like i love comics you know i'm not a religious person but you know if they stab me i go they still make me laugh man i'm sorry yeah you know i mean so it's it's tricky it's tricky we have really nothing

in common uh but cars cars yeah yeah and 500 million dollars each i think dave's probably got a few bucks more than I do. Okay. Dave's got 580. Whatever. But what I mean, you seem obsessed by wealth. I do seem obsessed by wealth, yeah. Has it eluded you? You do pretty well.

Yeah, you do. It's fun, though. It's fun to talk about because the thing everyone pursues, no one can talk about it. And when it's in the paper, how much you make, it's like, well, let's talk about it. Right, right. And it's one of those things, that's why I don't complain about anything. Right. you make it's like well let's talk about right right and it's one of those things that's why i don't complain about anything right when i had my accidents i just do jokes about it because people love to see rich people being set on fire okay that's it's really it's something they enjoy so you joke about it you make you make fun of it you know but was i hurt by the things that went on back and forth yeah yeah i mean some were like really okay you know i i

remember once his producer called me this one dave had his heart attack and they said please don't say anything on the tonight show i said why just please just don't just don't mention it don't say anything okay okay so i i didn't you know and about 10 days later the only one who never mentioned it was leno you never i laughed i walked into that i got set up on that yeah i just said ah stupid was i not to do that yeah but that wasn't dave that was somebody on the show but no to this day letterman makes me laugh as much as anybody. Fascinating character, funny. And there's a connection that we have that I can't describe.

I know. That's what I'm saying. That's all right. But you know something? It's like sex. I don't care how it works. It works. Just leave it.

I like to make love. I don't want to be a gynecologist. It works. Just leave it. You know, I like to make love. I don't want to be a gynecologist. Okay. It's a little too complicated. I don't know what this means, but I like it. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean.

So, I mean, I always, I always liked that. I mean, even when I went back to do the Oprah commercial with Letterman, that, that thing. Were you guys on set the same day or they shot separately? No, same time. I flew in. Dave said, hey, Dave, how are you wife we did our lines and then dave left and we were there like a minute and a half two minutes but that was okay that was okay so it's like a what you consider like a work friend of someone you're a fan of actual friend back then i mean i don't know you know it's like

if you've ever been in a plane crash with someone you it's like if you've ever been in a plane crash with someone, you have a bond. If you've ever been in a car accident, the two of you pull each other out. I don't know. My success was hinged to his. I don't know if his was hinged to mine, but mine was hinged to his. And I'm always grateful for the the time i spent with those are the most fun part of my career because i could go on the letterman show with something i thought of that afternoon and just do it it was spontaneous it wasn't rehearsed and we didn't have to run it past anybody it just seemed to work because i knew i just knew i could see how the wheels turning and i said what a lot of was going to

say about this and I can always tell what I like with the super success magazine when I caught him off guard oh there was nothing more fun to me nothing I enjoyed more ever yeah than making Dave yeah it's I wonder how it could have worked professionally if you're the host of tonight show he's on app or I guess on against like could you have maintained the relationship in any like well again and be successful would be the guy and i would be the if it was a comedy team dave would be the straight man and i would be the clown guy i mean i would you'd be the dean martin or no you'd be the jerry lewis. It's better if David was the host and I was the comic. Because, you know, I remember Dave used to say to me, when I first saw Letterman in the comedy,

so I walked and I said, I introduced myself and I said, man, great wordsmith. I like the way you think about it. Just talk about how he, phraseology and whatnot. And he said to me, how can you just be so confident? You get up there and just, how can you just start yelling at people? You know? And cause I, I wasn't as funny as I was loud. I was, Hey, nice to see you, pal. You know, just kind of, I didn't have a lot of jokes, but let him, he liked that part of it. He, he, he wasn't outgoing in that way. And I liked his words. So I think we took a little bit from each other. I watched the way David phrased things. I said, yeah, I got to slow down

and be more exact in how I say things. Yeah. And it's just one of them things? It's just one of those life things? You know, it's one of those life things. Yeah. I mean, if Letterman ever wanted me for anything, I would be there.

I am eternally grateful. And I'm sorry it got so ugly. I don't think it ever got really personal personal. It was mostly other people. You know, once Stern gets into it and everybody else and all attacking you. But they was okay. They was okay.

I mean, I got it. You know, the idea that I somehow took the show away from him, well, that never happened. David's own success kept him from getting the show because they wanted to keep 1230 a hit. But when I talk to strangers, they think Dave was all set to step in. I guest hosted for five years.

I heard you stood in the door and said, but wait. Yeah. No, I guest hosted for five years before I even got the show. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. but wait yeah no i guess i was for five years before i even got the show right so yeah yeah and you just like the sands of time or sands of time okay how did you fall in love with mavis and how did you not have kids oh well, I've lived with like five women. They're all born on the same day. Really?

Mavis was, when I saw Mavis in the audience. Same year or same sign? No, same sign. And I said, what's your birthday? She said September 5th. I remember I had Kathy Geisweit.

Do you remember her? Sounds familiar. Do you remember a comic called Kathy? Yes. Okay remember I had Kathy Geisweit. Do you remember her? Sounds familiar. Do you remember a comic called Kathy? Yes. She was on The Tonight Show. I found myself strangely attracted. I said, what did her dressing room? I said, look, I'm not flirting.

I'm happily married. I wrote a date down on this piece of paper. Just take a look at that date and see if it means anything to you. And you asked volunteers, have we ever met before? Sorry, you did the whole magician thing? I hadn't met her before. And she turned it over. She said, oh, September 5th, that's my birthday.

I went, okay, that's what I thought. Okay, I'd just taken a wild guess. And then I told her the story, and I told my wife on September 5th. So that's your sexual orientation is September 5th? I just seemed to be attracted to September 5th. My wife never wanted kids, and it was fine with me. So that was all right. Oh, so you weren't like, it wasn't,

there was no tension? No, I don't need a little J, no, I'm fine. You know, she could go on the road with me. It was like you're on a date the whole time, you know? Meaning what? Well, what I mean is she's not home taking care of a kid and I'm in a club, hey girls, how are you? Nice to see you. You know, I mean is she's not home taking care of a kid, and I'm in a club. Hey, girls, how are you? Nice to see you.

You know, I mean, that's what happens. She had a dad that was in show business. He was not particularly successful, but he was a working. Was it Fred Travolina? No, no, working character actor, you know. So she knew the life. And if I went to Hawaii for a gig, she would be with me. So, yeah.

And to this day she i was at comedy magic club last night doing a benefit she was with me so and i'm 43 years 43 years is it still like a date what's it is it still i enjoy your company you know that's kind of all you can you know i remember having this discussion with someone this person said to me oh oh, he met this girl, coming. He goes, she's crazy. She's really crazy,

but the sex is unbelievable. What's going on about the sex? And I said, but when the sex is over, she's still crazy. So you have 23 hours of crazy until the crazy wheel comes around again. You have 23 hours of crazy. Sit crazy wheel comes around again. You have 23 hours of crazy.

Sit there and eat. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's when everything else happens. It just made me laugh. No, I enjoy our company. We have a good time. She understands what a good joke is. You know, I remember we were lying in bed the other night, you know.

It's like 2 o'clock in the morning. She goes, honey, I love you. I said, you're having a say two o'clock morning. She goes, I go, she goes, honey, I love you. I said, you're having a nightmare. Go back to bed. Right. And she fell out of bed laughing. And to me, I was supposed to a woman who might get mad at that, but I just went, you're having a nightmare. She just, she thought that was like the funniest thing. I don't know. That's a pretty good line. I mean, she walked me up in the middle of the night. It's hilarious. You're just having a nightmare when you go back to bed. Did you learn anything from your recent accidents? No.

And you said it wasn't the first. That's why they're called accidents. They're accidents. If I was a Buddhist and I was setting myself on fire to protest some injustice, that would be one thing. But I just, it was just an accident. So what, you didn't crash for any kind of cause? No, no.

No, my, what happened was I was on my motorcycle. I came around a corner and I crashed into Jeremy Renner's snowplow. That's so, it was just a bad. I didn't know that was a joke until you hit me over the head with it. Oh, here's a question. Okay. Did you like running a staff? Because you, by the way, you still have a big,

you still do a lot of TV shows. You still do, how many of those, the garage episodes do you do? How many, you've done like 100 of them? It's 500 or something? Oh, no. Well, we do 52 a year and I've been on for 13 years. Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, and then I do the Jay Reynolds Garage Show that was on CNBC.

Now it will be on someplace else. We haven't found a home for it. Those are hour episodes. The others are half hours. But what was the question? And do you mind running a staff? I personally kind of find it stressful, but you find everything. I do. I don't find anything stressful. No, I know that's interesting.

This is not a part of my, you know why? Because it's all gravy at this point. You know, my parents saw me be successful. My parents died. I didn't die in some, with me in some sort of shameful situation or being arrested. They got to see me be successful. So everything is great at this point. I like having a staff. I really enjoyed it. When I would hire writers, I hired them for a year.

I didn't pick anybody up for 13 weeks. Because look, find your voice, just just write anything and just send me everything so a lot of times people would send me material on the same and each writer would think they wrote the joke well they didn't really maybe it was my punch line and their setup or vice versa and sometimes i wrote the whole joke but a lot of times so that there was no stress we had two teams some worked until from seven in the morning till like four o'clock in the afternoon. Then I had a second staff that worked to three or four in the morning and I would get jokes from each side and it worked out great. I hired writers by looking at material, not by name, not by seeing them, just send me material.

Name, not by seeing them, just send me material. And we wound up with four female writers and one guy that was so crippled with muscular dystrophy, but he could bang out a typewriter. Now, if that guy had been pushed into my office, I might not have hired him, but he had jokes that were funny. So I hired on the basis of- You would have discriminated against him

if you had the chance. I don't know if I would have, but somebody, you know what I'm saying? No, I know what you mean, yeah. People go, oh, this guy, but he was funny, he was good. Banging on the typewriters a little, I feel like that's a poor use. That's a poor use, that's probably true.

Poor use for turn-frames. But you know what I'm saying. But anyway, but anyway, so it was okay, I liked it. We all got along pretty well. Didn't have any real problems. You know, anytime there's a problem, we just sort of stopped and dealt with it.

Do you have a temper at all? No. No, I don't. I don't have a temper. I have a temper if something isn't tolerant or something like that, but not if it's something to, I mean, I like to think I can,

so what's the real problem here, you know? It doesn't seem that hard to me. You know, kindness goes a long way. If you're the first one in the office and the last one to leave, no one grudges you the 37, besides you, of course. No one grudges you how much money you're making

if you appear to be working harder than everyone else. And that's what I tried. Were you conscious of that? Yeah, I took the smallest office. Like Debbie had the office with the bathroom and all this stuff and people go i want to go talk to jay they go this is your office yeah i just sit here and write jokes it's like oh and they were astounded they didn't have the big office because i had the same office as all the other writers and the writers would walk by and just hand me

jokes we didn't have a writer i guess we had a writer's room and you would have writers jimmy bergen would say that you'd be right until you'd have them to your house yeah some writers would come over and we were from 10 to about 2 or 2 30 in the morning yeah and i would try to have 60 of the monologue together before i went to bed because you don't know if a plane crashes well there's your airplane hunk yeah that out you know whatever it might be so that was also i would say most of the effort went into the monologue i mean i realized about five years in there are only 18 guests in the whole world that mean anything so rather than do a four and a half or five minute monologue like these do in the old days we stretch it out to 11 or 12 minutes and that seemed to work as long as the jokes kept coming people oh well i'm just gonna stay and

watch and by that time we're into the next click on the rating period so that helps and are you pretty uh accepting of the show this the the showbiz clock and like all right it's my time i had like my thing and now I'll just do something else. You mean with the Tonight Show? Like with the turnover of the jobs? Yeah, I mean, the Tonight Show ended on a Thursday night. Friday, I was in Florida at a gig.

And you kind of were just like, yeah. No, I was a standup comedian who was lucky enough to get a TV show. Sometimes it's only eight weeks. Sometimes it's a year and a half. I was lucky. It lasted 22 TV show. Sometimes it's only eight weeks. Sometimes it's a year and a half. I was lucky. It lasted 22 years. That's fine.

Yeah. And you didn't, you weren't chomping at the bit or? No, I was never a guy that, I go to spa, I go, I'm sorry.

This used to be my table. What? That's why, my table. No, I wasn't one of those guys. No, I never went to,

I didn't do any of that. All my meals came from people in paper hats. You guys no i never went so i didn't do any of that all my meals came from people in paper hats you know i i i didn't i didn't want to live a show business lifestyle you know as you're saying all this i'm like i feel like you're more competitive not in a good way like in a i feel like you're like you want to kill you want to kill in every and you want to be like if there's a job you can have you want the job like you are ambitious in a meritocracy you want to like i want to earn it and then i want to be the best yeah i think that that makes sense yeah because that's what the sort of the letterman and the kimmel and all those guys get like the the way

i don't want to put words in there, but it seems like the implication is that you're very competitive. Yeah, but that's good, isn't it? Yeah, if I'm the buyer, if I'm the, you know what I mean? Like if I'm in the crowd. Right, exactly. And you just feel like, no, this is the rules of the game and let's play hard.

That's fine. I don't mind getting beaten by somebody that's better. You know, I was at the comedy show, and I saw Orny Adams. You ever seen Orny? Yeah. Really funny. Yeah.

He's a guy that's really grown into it now. And he had a bit that just killed me. And I walked out, and I told him, I said, I'm so pissed that I didn't think of that, because it was so funny and so smart. There's a bit about low T. Have you heard that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I go, ah, that's right up my alley. How did I miss that? But I was glad for him. Yeah. And I was glad that he was funnier than I was. And that's good. I don't mind getting beaten.

You know, it's like losing a fight, but you put it like my dad, you know. It's a good beating. Yeah. Well, that's okay. I stayed in the fight. Yeah, that's good. You did beaten you know it's like losing a fight but you put it like my dad you know it's a good beating yeah well that's okay i stayed in the fight yeah that's good you did you know yeah but you can it sounds like you can give a beating too like you know you can take a beating but once you got good so yeah yeah great oh this is the thing i wanted to oh how how how uh how well you know comedy. A friend of mine was the, we'll call him Seth Meyers, said that you called him when he was the host of Weekend Update and told him why you liked his approach.

You said, when you don't like a joke, I can't tell. You said when, and then you went down all the other late night hosts You said, when you don't like a joke, I can't tell. You said, when... And then you went down all the other late night hosts and said, when they don't like a joke, so-and-so looks up and to the right. Right.

The level of mastery you have is incredible. Well, you don't say anything. It's funny that you say that because when Letterman would do a slam at me like i think howard stern was saying you know leno steals all his jokes from me you know something yeah and he said it once in the monologue uh leno stealing jokes and his eyes went down you know and i realized oh i see dave doesn't believe that i could i could tell that. I could tell. I mean, I could tell he was saying something that really wasn't.

Maybe I'm imagining it, but it really wasn't. And I can see that. When somebody doesn't tell the truth, everybody has to tell. Yeah. And with Seth, I couldn't tell when he didn't like the joke. But a lot of times. But you knew everybody else's joke. Yeah, well, because comics, if somebody else wrote the joke and it doesn't work they want to distance themselves uh-huh they say it and then you know then it's a turn whatever it might be but there's always something they want

people to know subconsciously that was not their job they were doing it because it's part of the job was forced on them whatever it might be you know that's funny yeah that was like johnny that's what was great about him i mean chapelle one time said you can tell how funny someone is by how they bomb right yeah and johnny like no one was better right excellent that's right um all right final question oh final you're gonna hate it you're gonna hate it oh i would like to give you credit for inspiring kind of a i do a joke about how dogs uh are hostages and you had a joke about was it the cat being finicky or the dog being finicky i'm good you had a joke about uh the dog your wife said uh the cat won't eat the food we got her she's being finicky and you said well lock her in the closet for three

days and let's see how finicky she is yeah that's more cruel than a joke but yeah and what's the and what's the no you inspired first of all no it's you know it's funny it was funny you did in the 80s i remember you were i'm trying to prove that you were a headliner that you would have enjoyed. Now, you were a critic of me in the early days, correct? No. I never was. No. I literally never.

I've always just thought you were like a great comic. I remember when you were a comic. So when you were doing The Tonight Show, I never. I was never. I kind of understood what you were doing. It was amazing how people just, you just get swamped with, it was just unbelievable. Just, yeah, it was, it was, it was a fascinating experience. Was it like, wow, this, what did it feel like entirely, you know, heavy lays the head that wears the crown or was it?

Well, I think three times I was in the top 100 most influential people type of thing. And we would get jokes every week in the New York Times that they poke out of the monologue. You know, I didn't think I I thought like I always had a smart joke. And then it's a silly joke. You always want to have something for everybody in there, you know. Yeah. When times are serious, you did silly jokes. When times are silly, you did serious jokes, you know.

But I always tried to have the monologue, you put it together like a newspaper. You start with the headline of the day and by the time you get to the end of the monologue it's like the funny page you're doing silly things so it sounds so and when i got picked on it was always for the silly things but we got quoted more than almost anybody for the political jokes we did at the time um well yeah but they didn't they didn't act like they were smart uh you would do the same political but it just it didn't seem because it was you're affable so it seems like oh jay's sort of mild and doesn't have a strong opinion but it's like yeah you have a strong opinion anybody's paying attention can tell yeah you know i mean but that's really the key to it i mean that's why everybody does a talk show now you're always losing 50 of the audience because you're giving away all your you know i used to do

these uh things with um colin powell i go out and do like 20 minutes of stand-up then i bring him out and i would interview him and it'd be like colleges you know these kind of things and he told me he he didn't run for president because the minute he did every day he would lose another half of the audience another chunk because he didn't believe this, he didn't believe that. Mother Teresa was against abortion, hated it. Well, they'd be picketing her today. But, you know, I mean, so a lot of times,

to show all your cards doesn't necessarily seem like the smartest thing when you're in a business like television, which has a mass appeal. Yeah, and I never, I'm trying to think of like did i ever criticize i i really and in fact chappelle used to be on the you're on the tonight show and it was helpful it like was helpful to the to getting the show and starting the show so like oh i love dave he was yeah i thought he was just the best yeah he is so so uh so yeah i'm i'm i would have to

think about it but i've always had like a well no i'm not i'm just saying no because i'm trying to think i'm like because you're a smart guy so i know you probably you probably in there yeah but what i'm saying is the other thing that impressed me is when we met we met a couple years ago and you knew you watch every stand-up special i see a lot of them i i'm a little tired of it you know the first one's always good the second one is anybody from denver yo denver yeah yeah okay i got 59 minutes you know pep rally yeah i'm just i've never done one because you're now a victim. It's on your permanent record. That's an interesting reason to not do one because it'd be a good payday.

Well, or you could do 10 one-nighters and make the same money and own your act. A lot of times people come and they go, I saw a year ago. You got all new stuff. No, I don't. You just have a bad memory. You just forgot. And it comes every six to nine nine seconds there's a joke and you're moving quickly when it's on tv if you're in town tomorrow night i'm going to watch your three specials and if you do anything and that live show that's on the special i feel ripped off yeah first of all you're not going to

remember you're going to remember you're only going to remember three bits from an hour anyway right tops yeah yeah and then yeah but yeah that's i'm always impressed with your it's like in like real intel like real into the like rock said one time it's in seinfeld's movie that when when you guys were at comedy magic it's you and shanling and rock and seinfeld and rocks i was like jay was like the the the grown-up in that room okay here's the question all right well all right i want to before we go on all right i want to know more about the criticism because i i feel like there's something there how you were like wow all these people have turned on me did it feel disloyal did it feel it surprised you did it feel like well it surprised you my of course it does because you have an opinion of

yourself and you're surprised when people think completely the opposite. And you go, wow, how did I not? And you question your, how did I not see that coming? How did I not know where there's smoke, there's fire? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so it was. It was, I mean, I'd like to think I'm pretty thick skin, but yeah, some of it was hurtful. But usually it was from people I didn't know.

It wasn't coming from internally. Oh, yeah, we work with Leno on the Tonight Show, and he's awful. It wasn't that. It was people that don't know you. Like I was giving out donuts at the Strikers. Yeah, the Writer's Guild on Strike. Right, and Leno pulls up a $100,000 Tesla with $30 worth of donuts. Screw you, Jay Leno!

Am I supposed to sell my car now? No, I just handed out donuts. I wasn't. Guys, here's some donuts. But just people furious, you know? Or people think that you, I'm doing this game show, you bet your life, you know? And we took it off because of the writer's strike.

Okay, well, it's solidarity. I believe i believe all that but i'm not in charge i worked there there's a payroll company that pays residuals i'm reading it's a jay leno pay us the residuals you owe us i didn't know what this guy was talking about and i called and it turns out yeah the payroll company is behind and okay but, but they're blaming me. I have nothing to do with that. That's the kind of ones where you feel like, I don't mind if I did something. I'll take credit for it or blame.

But it has nothing to do with me. Those are the ones that kind of get you. Yeah, well, that's the stuff that's like, and were you able to quickly think, this is not about me. It's about position yeah yeah i guess i'm the i empathize with the people because i've been in that situation but i'm talking about criticism from comics like the criticism from the time the from the 90s all that comics and i part of me i don't know if I wouldn't have taken a swing at somebody. Well, I mean,

there is a little bit of that Italian Alzheimer's. Yeah. You forget everything but a grudge. Now we're talking. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So that's why. You know, I remember,

I don't necessarily hold it against people, but I always remember like with, oh, the comic that talks, Bobcat. Yeah. For some talks, Bobcat. Yeah. For some reason, Bobcat comes on the Tonight Show with a can of lighter fluid. Do you remember this? Yeah.

He sets a couch on fire, okay? And okay, well, I put it out, okay? Fire marshal comes over, furious, wants him arrested. Just da-da-da-da-da just that you know and i said no no i i mean this guy is screaming i calmed him down i said look bob castle's i don't think he meant anything i mean i defended him i kept being arrested and then i hear him on stern all the leno fucking pussy ass leno i go really do you think that was funny setting the couch on i mean everything is paper the whole thing yeah the whole studio could have gone up you know and i go really

all right and i i don't think i spoke to him since not i just haven't been in the same room with him right but i was i just thought really i mean i mean i kept you from being arrested you know i intervened on your behalf and those are the kind of things i don't i didn't understand like why would you not say hey jay thanks for covering my ass yeah no problem man it was a stupid thing yeah i know it was stupid okay fine that's that's what i really thought would happen yeah and then i find myself uh being castigated oh it was really funny and you all right okay you know yeah just no that's what i'm curious about yeah is like it it it really funny and you all right okay yeah just no that's what i'm curious about yeah is like it it it penetrated and it was like okay oh yeah it gets to you but there's a little

nichey in here too you know you've got a what doesn't kill you doesn't make you stronger yeah and you believe that as like an ethos oh yeah i think i said yeah like when i got set on fire i went this is bad it's not when bobcat set you on fire no no and i got when i got set on fire i went it's bad but it's not that bad i don't take painkillers or anything like that i said pain is there for a reason it's supposed to teach you a lesson uh and okay yeah and you and you that seems to be like your number one like you don't feel if you feel sorry for yourself it's not for more than like a split second yeah that's about right yeah and you and and you think it's like from the from you were always like that yeah i've always been that way i think you know and plus look i'm a real i'm very lucky i've

been way more successful than I, than I ever thought would happen. So at this point it's all gravy. So if it blows back in your face, okay, that's all right. That's fine. I don't feel sorry for myself.

I don't sit home and go, why didn't I get this? Yeah. It went pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, you know,

by your own admission, what is it? 37? Yeah. I mean, 37 a year from what i from what jay leno told me he made all right movie of your life the jay leno story what's the arc who plays jay leno i have no idea fred travolina

i have no idea who plays jay leno what's it about what was this all about favorite movies oh it's all black and white requiem for heavyweight uh-huh with anthony quinn yep the first i saw the movie when i was 10 that was the first empathetic movie i ever saw meaning meaning that did you ever see the movie yeah so we yeah we watched it in film school when he goes into and he talks to the woman about working, I was, I was number five

in the world. And you just, you just feel for this guy. Yeah. Okay. You know, just. The first one that just like,

oh. Yeah. Facing the crowd. You ever see Facing the Crowd? Facing the Crowd is, anyone who hasn't seen it is doing themselves a disservice. Even if you hate

black and white movies, even if you hate old movies. I a disservice even if you hate black and white movies if you hate old movies i mean because if you grow up in color it's the greatest movie it's so cynical and andy griffith is you want to talk about a hundred and i mean driving a million miles you can't believe how good he is yeah you know it's why i never bought dustin hoffman as lenny because he was always an actor in that. He wasn't a comedian. Andy Griffith was a comedian in this, in this sense. And when he played that, you know,

when he does that whole thing where he's just the sleaziest guy and he gets a radio show and he goes, you know, men think you women just put a little water over a dish and that's all you do all day. They don't know you're scrubbing the floor and doing he's he just milks in it that's just the the greatest showbiz the greatest movie uh godfather of course obviously you gotta go for that one that's it and that's the color one um 12 angry men great. Another great black and white movie. Yeah.

Just unbelievable. So we got 12 Angry Men facing the crowd. Oh, Miracle on 34th Street. Miracle on 34th Street because it's the only Christmas movie that gives you a logical reason why the man is Santa Claus. Because everyone, it's just magic. Yeah. But in this one, you got this old man.

They got him on trial for being santa claus you know and that that that and then jack albertson in his first acting role ever as the post office he's got all these letters to santa what are these letters taking the dead letter they're all filled down there hey wait, wait a minute. They got Sandy Claus on trial down there. Send him down the courthouse. So the lawyer goes in. If no other authority, if an authority as prestigious as the United States Post Office recognizes this man as Santa Claus, now you see, and then you say, I thought it was just great. The greatest, and come watch this movie. He's the kid I want. Well, how are they going to justify he's not really santa claus but he

becomes santa claus by edict of the united states government i thought it's the greatest ending ever just yeah yeah it may because it's logical and it's good as the bob newhart waking up in the bed and next to yes yeah you're you know what your dad was good teaching you dodging dodging dodging questions oh what was this the question is oh what i thought what was this jay leno movie uh life all about what was this what's the story arc i don't know i don't care you know i'll give you an example okay i'm in vegas one day i mean it was the hilton then i see these two guys and they have a six foot cardboard cutout of Elvis. One guy's holding the head. The other guy's walking, got the feet as they walked by me with this.

And I said, Hey, what do you guys, uh, Oh, you're putting an Elvis thing in. I was putting it in. Oh, we're taking it down. Nobody knows who Elvis is anymore. I went, Oh, okay. Well, so much for legacy. Thank you. And I went, yeah.

So when people say, well, how do you feel about i don't know i don't care while i'm here it's been a great ride it's been a lot of fun i enjoy it to have the audacity to think i'd like this to go on long after i'm dead no no i'm not even talking about like what do you think do you believe in like a god thing like is it what do you what's your sort of what do you think this was a like what did you overcome what did you like a movie not about what are they i don't know it's not about worshiping jay leno no it's just about like what was the what's the story i have no idea and you and and it seems like you just not it's none of your business i just don't have any interest in it really

yeah if i i should spend my time trying to think of something funny as opposed to gee what would who would play me but you're misunderstanding me what i'm saying is like what did you what did you get out of this out of life oh you know you know something i saw a commercial on tv here i so missed the point of this commercial a guy's like in a rugged place icon uh what's that place in chile mr chupin what's that what's that mountain um uh is there a is there a casino no no it's not a casino no it's a machu picchu machu picchu uh-huh and he said he said what are you going when you die what are you gonna think what i could have bought or where i could have gone i'm thinking well i

know i would have bought that uh and i went oh i would like to have bought and went oh i missed the whole point oh yeah i was thinking i should have got that corvette you just bought how many cars you bought i got 204 on the road. I like it. Yeah, yeah. But I just missed the whole point of it. Yeah, that's the thing is I don't think you're bullshitting. I think you're like, it's just like, this is your orientation of life and this is how you see shit and you just.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you have certain codes that you live by that always make sense. And if you follow them, you know, it's like if a guy takes dice and he keeps throwing them with a thousand other people, at the end of the day, only one guy is going to be left standing. And that guy's going to think, wow, I must be really special. No, you're not. You're just really, really lucky. So I've never got to the point where I thought I was special. I just thought I was lucky at throwing dice.

It just happened. And also you're lucky to have the ability to write jokes. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, assuming that part of it, you know. You know, I have a good support system. I got the same friends I had in high school. I've been married the same way for 43 years.

It's all, it's great. So when these outside forces attack me, I don't, it doesn't bother me. You know, when I was a kid, I could never watch shows like Maud because they were always screaming at each other in the house. We never fought inside my house when I was a kid. And my wife and I don't fight. So to me, once I'm at home and I shut the door, all that is outside. It doesn't bother me. I never bring my work home. My wife would say, hey, what's this in the paper about you and Letterman? Oh, it's nothing. It's nothing. I mean, we didn't even discuss it because when I'm home, that's where it is. And so when you say, like whenever I see people fighting and they're married, it's like, oh, it just makes me really uncomfortable

because that's your core. You're going down now as opposed to having a fort, you know. I have a fort. The people I grew up with, parents, wife, you know what I'm saying? Does that make any sense? No, yeah. You're not neurotic. You're just not a neurotic person.

No, I'm not neurotic you're just not a neurotic person you're not no i'm not neurotic you're not you you just are like living a life and you're not thinking about why and you're not questioning that and quite like you're just going forward yeah you're plowing ahead you're plowing ahead as the sands of time plowing uh thanks for coming buddy thanks it was great to have you good man good being had All you have to do is open, open up your hand. My man.