Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Josh Homme

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Neal Brennan interviews Josh Homme (Queens of the Stone Age, Eagles of Death Metal) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 3:23 Crystal Meth 18:57 Managing Loss 29:38 Disbelief 45:11 Patience 48:54 Conflict 1:07:28 Addicted to Risk 1:12:56 Emotional Vulnerability 1:20:57 Anger Associated with Ostracization 1:35:44 Movie Question ---------------------------------------------------------- https://nealbrennan.com for tickets to Neal's tour Brand New Neal Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ---------------------------------------------------------- Sponsors: https://nordvpn.com/neal for a huge discount + 1 additional month https://betterhelp.com/neal for 10% off your first month GameTime App Code: BLOCKS for $20 off your first purchase Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Introducing TD Insurance for Business, with customized coverage options for your business. Because at TD Insurance, we understand that your business is unique, so your business insurance should be too. Contact a licensed TD Insurance advisor to learn more. Hi, Neil Brennan. I have a Netflix special called Blocks where I talk about things that are wrong with me, makes me feel alone in the world. Jimmy Carr had the idea to have my friends on. They talk about what makes them feel alone in the world. And together, we heal the earth. My guest today is not a personal friend. We just met about 20 minutes ago, but I think it's going pretty well. Yeah, I think it's going well well other than the not personal friend thing well but i'm not gonna be presumptuous that's true i didn't have your number until you called me to say where are you i've been watching your house a

little bit but that's fine that's on me that's what the desert's about the guest is josh homing now the what's your like intro how Grammys have you been nominated for? And how many have you won? I've got one and a bunch of times. Who are you really? You're mainly in Queens of the Stone Age. Yeah. And you're also in Eagles of Death Metal.

And you're working a jealousy plot between those two bands. I don't know which practice. Who am I having Christmas with who i don't know who i don't know which practice who am i having christmas with i don't know uh i knew about you like casually through culture and know your songs and your videos and all that stuff but you've been in band since you were fucking a kid yeah which is like 13 14 yeah 12 was the first show that was without adult supervision. You guys rented a space, practiced, figured it out. No, the odd thing about being from the Dez is that... The desert.

The desert, yeah. They call it the Dez. The odd thing about being from there is that any attempt for kids to have a good time was met by the boredom of the police being like we finally have something to do this is over and so it chased everyone out into the desert and it chased everyone out to generators and and it created a lawless and what would be completely sort of socially illegal now like Like 40-year-olds, 13-year-olds drinking, doing drugs, co-mingling. This is my girlfriend with her hand on her boob around the shoulder. That kind of, hey, man.

You're talking about the 70s and 80s, it sounds like. This is in the mid to late 80s. And as a young kid, it was scary to go to a place that was so lawless because you had no idea if it was going to be just a you know a series of fights with mexicans or if it was going to be you just didn't know what you were going to get and then you know sometimes it's everyone on mushrooms and there's fires in the hills that are controlled so right sometimes so you know squeegee that third eye and then other times it was terrifying and you didn't know what it was going to be you never knew that dice roll and i think that's what i still want things to be feral

i think it's because of that childhood attachment to that learning that way well that's what i was going to say about you it was like you've always struck me as feral from the outside in yeah you were a feral side you're skinny and we we talked about it when we were getting coffee. You've gone up and down on weight. Explain to the people how you did that, your diet plan. Well, you know, I've always sort of indulged in a buffet of drugs, but there was a lot of crystal for a while. Sure.

Which is from my hometown, one of our main exports. Sure, sure, one of our main exports. Sure. Sure. Sure. Uh, and, um, and you know, I think I always had a fascination with there's so much to do that staying up late. I look, there's nothing cooler than staying up late. Yeah. And it was sort of like, you want to dance, you want an omelet, you want to fix your car, but you realize after a while, it's like, those aren't eggs. This car's not broken, and there's no music. And so I just think after a while. And you snorted, you told me.

Smoking, apparently, is for bridge and tunnel weekenders. No, that's the intro to homelessness. Oh, that's like you're just, it's not worth the huge kick that you get from smoking. You have to snort it. That's how you get on the faces of meth portfolio. I dated a woman who used to do meth, and she was like, my skin was never better,

and my teeth were perfect. And I never lied to myself. Well, no, she said, you just fuck all the time. That's all you do. Yeah, essentially, unlike cocaine, it's boner town. It puts an S on your chest, but that S stands for speech.

Whatever. Is there an S on my chest or not? It doesn't matter what it's for. It sort of leaves you emotionally in a strange spot because you're interested. You're interested, but you're only, you kind of, it keeps the stone from sinking all the way. You're kind of skipping along the top. You're interested. You're interested, but you have no attention span.

Right, but you're ready to be like, you know, I feel I was able to keep my attention span, but also creates a bluntness where you're like, okay, enough of that. Now we're, you know. And you don't, you're like, I can't worry about hurting that person's feelings. I don't think it made me cruel by any standard it's just i love to to talk and listen engage in that back and forth but um it's certainly you keep your eye on the prize and you and you put these kind of emotional blinders on i think and frankly i realized that that it played into my workaholic nature you said you never missed a meeting meaning you were able to do meth off and on for 16 years yeah 16 glorious years and you were a functioning

i was a high functioning guy you know i i i did you know business and didn't spend a lot didn't spend a lot of money didn't money, didn't wreck any cars. I just felt like I was leaning forward the whole time. And really, frankly, enjoyed it so much of the time. I got to say, from the outside in, faces of meth stuff aside, if I could pause my life and do it for a while i would do it yeah i mean i think that's that's it's real it's real tractor beam is it's difficulty to sort of exit from i bet yeah you know that's it's got like a four percent rate so once you get

involved in that life it's it's very difficult and that's including snorting. It doesn't make a difference. Yeah. I mean, I think the main difference would be like smoking just degenerates you so much you go through so much more of it and it's just you start wearing it immediately. And, you know, to my experience, that snorting it or parachuting it, as they would call it, to swallow something like is more of a slow burn. But are you still kind of burning up a lot of life force yeah i mean i i always reckon i knew that you're stealing the years at the end of your life to to pressure them like create a diamond in the pressure that was the

hope yeah you know but but also those are kind of the those are the rationales you tell yourself a bit. And I also realized I was really covering up a lot of my own blocks. I really was sincerely trying to put a callous wherever it hurt. Okay, well, that's why you're here. You have an album out. That doesn't matter, though. You have an album out. People can do stuff. Let the algorithm do what it's people can do stuff let the algorithm

do what it's going to do uh let the algorithm speak somebody said the fucking funniest thing to me recently i met a guy on an elevator in new york and he goes he goes yeah you come on my algorithm sometimes what's your name and it was like that's what it is that's not like i saw you came all over my algorithm yeah basically uh but just that's where this what it is now it's like yeah you got in my algorithm right but why are all the words for it so disgusting it's like you got to check my feed where you're like man how do you put it like that i don't want to hook the bag from around your ears what okay so you you said that you didn't do any self-help stuff until about five years ago.

So it seems like you were just living in a haphazard way. Well, frankly, I was like, it's working for me. I'm able to get myself off for long stretches of time. How long? It would be like four months, five months. And was it difficult? Well, of course, it's increasingly difficult difficult and so it would be on purpose it would say in order to justify my next camping trip so to speak he called it camping in order to justify this i need to you know also it's like i would be

home and i would be a father and i wouldn't be on tour and so i would be like this is not i need to show myself i have this control and so it's kind of always flexing on my own psyche that way and there i i i want to pause and say i get a perverse pleasure from deprivation yeah i did like and it sounds like you did too like that sort of like like there's something biblical about like in the desert in the desert like you know yeah and i i guess i romanticize my own ideals anyways and so romanticizing like i can take it i can do this and this is the right thing to do in this moment and then i can choose to stay off if i want to it's like somehow running myself through the paces of you gotta earn this i never felt like i would be playing music this long

anyways and so it comes to be that you know it's also like you gotta earn this too and this is art and you gotta you know you have to take it on the chin you know yeah everything's trial by fire well and i've always i've always loved my own blood and spit and scars and things like that gotta you know you have to take it on the chin you know yeah everything's a trial by fire well and i've always i've always loved my own blood and spit and scars and things like that and so not only the uh it's also the degradation of it too right like this mutual degradation amongst what's a little blood amongst friends this is how we do something amazing to do something classic you have to do something classic and what's up I still believe that you know I still believe what's funny is that reads in your work and it

also reads in the fans it feels like a lot of people believe it and they're it like your sort of genre has so many visual trappings tattoos there's like a low rider thing yeah vampires somehow long beach there's like this pile from the outside in i'm like oh that's they're all into it yeah you know it's doing that thing that that is very jumbo shrimp it's like trying to get in a group of individuals it's trying to take from a bunch of little cliques and unite them all and admit, I don't want all of you. I just want some of you. What's funny is even though I've sort of omitted, or not omitted, but sort of extracted speed from my conversation or my lifestyle anymore, the ideals remain the same. Those things are unchanged. It's just more dealing with them

head on and not allowing crystal to be part of that truth right like my solution starts here hit it gary bring those lines over it's just not because i i realized that how much i was running from things instead of i felt like i was taking them head on and i was colliding yeah because it is there is something brutal about it yeah it's it's brutal it's a brutal lifestyle you know but it's there's like a cool there's like a cool it's you know it's like the glamour of you know bukowski and and yeah and the salt and sea yeah and and like the fringe of life its entry point is the fringe of life and so joshua tree and and to to feel like you're escaping you look no further than where you're already standing you know you're in this

location and the mental location of the fringe from the start and so it becomes really simple to make art or really not simple joyous to make art there because you feel like you're living the art you're you're already outside yeah you're an outside like everyone there the tough part is the romantic side of that because again as i said i was like i my ideals like fairness and justice and and love and revenge and the perfection and you know you know forgiveness, I romanticize those because that's what we kind of do is, you know, I need to believe that it's real so it doesn't feel silly. But also when you do stuff like speed, you really deny what hurts, and you're doing a psychotic, you know.

It is a psychotic. It is a psychotic. And so what you're doing is encouraging what i really learned the last five years is that anger is the sword i hold in a hand which is hurt right so when i would feel insecure or scared afraid to do something um or challenged by that sometimes my reaction is anger you know which really doesn't make sense you know i mean it's a fight or flight mechanism i guess but it doesn't make sense in the solution like i'm scared so the first thing i'm gonna do is get really pissed off yeah chance well first putting gambit

smoking crystal seems like a badass hardcore thing to do snort i'm sorry again again guys don't smoke it snort it if you take nothing away if you stop it right now snort it um i beg of you sir sir hear my words here listen to me you listen to me uh it seems like a badass thing to do it seems brave it seems but it's a complete avoidance yeah i mean it's the ultimate way to sort of be over sexualized and and and heightened at all levels except for your emotional dexterity you know it's like talk about being emotionally on limber and and also getting off the the depression associated with getting off and taking those breaks so you're you're constantly heave hoeing on your how long

would the depression last when you quit the full four months or would it be a couple weeks yeah i mean a couple weeks heavily you know and and you're really taffying out your depression so it's wide and you know it's uh and it hurts it hurts and it's uh it's you know as you know like when you can't seem to get around it or away from it when it feels like it's all over you yeah and um like when it's in the eggs you're making yeah you're like gooey it's fucking under your nail you're just like yeah get this shit off me yeah there's it's when you find the the joylessness in like fucking eggs you know you're just fucking eggs again yeah you motherfuckers but it's it's it's a hundred percent real so there's no way

you know and then plus when you drain the ocean of that and that chemical depression side goes away you're still left with what was there from the beginning. What made you start to actually do the work? What made you start to actually think about your real problems? Not your relationship with Crystal Snorted. Well, I always was hoping that there, I knew there would be something someday that would be like, that's the wall. And I hope that that thing would be something where someone would say if you now's the time or you could die but it

didn't involve dying you know you wish for that perfect wall right a soft a soft brick yeah soft rock bottom right and also you know i there's guys like iggy who you know was a pariah at times and a junkie notorious wild man who has managed when i when i worked with him i talked to him extensively like how did you get to the spot where you have he has one bottle of wine with dinner at night and that's it and how do you how do you manage this how do you because i always felt i have the ability to exhibit those kinds of controls but i'm not a control freak i just my preference would be to not have it go out of control and so i'd rather just try to do that you know i don't i'm not like it must be is this way or nothing you know so i think i just my family you know i i was mostly spending my time on tour that was my way

of coping on tour doing drugs yeah and then i would come home and and it also it created exacerbated that feral nature nature in me which i was like makes the shows more unpredictable and it does. And I never knew what I was going to do. Nobody else knew. And it could be blood and it could be flowers. And I loved rolling the dice like that, the risk. And then it just became like unmanageable.

Yeah, well, then it just was like, man, hurts. It just hurts. My body hurt. my mind hurt and um the push and pull of going on and off that that felt like a job type job and right and and i and it was like how many times will i put myself through this and the reason is like what's the fucking reason there's no reason you know and well you've done reason? There's no reason. Well, you've done it before. There's your reason.

Yeah, sure. Well, and it was like, and I'm actually gaining enough knowledge to do it better now. Yeah, you know, I've thought about it. I'm an expert here. Hi, Neil Brennan here. You know, I was just a Mexico City gang. You know me. You follow my travels. And I used NordVPN down there because there were things I wanted to watch that I needed

to be in America to watch, including, I don't want to get too specific, but TV shows, sporting events. You know, I like basketball or a streaming service that I stream on. Another thing that I didn't know, if you're in a different country, you can get different airline rates, which I kind of think I did accidentally while I was in Mexico. NordVPN is the price of a cup of coffee a month.

It's a low cost for huge savings that you'll get. You'll reap those rewards pretty much immediately. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com slash neil, N-E-A-L, to get a huge discount off your NordVPN plan plus one extra month on top. It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. Just go to nordvpn.com to save today. Let's do some blocks real quick. The first one, managing loss. Explain that. What are your big losses? My dad is a really great guy, but every parent is, you know,

as a kid, your folks doing their very best they can do are doing damage that they don't understand. And that's just what every parent does. And it's not their fault and it's not yours either. It's just, this is the traverse of life.

Yeah. And my dad's always been a workaholic and so working and and he's always been like uh he has such a great moral compass you know like we should do what's right and all i got from that was like set aside how you feel and get involved in doing what the situation asked for to make the situation right as a whole and then we'll deal with your emotions later that's that's what i got from that you know yeah if at all maybe later maybe we'll forget well and i i think you just sort of start frisbeeing them into a pile on the back burner and i um was very close

with my grandparents that are tattooed on my hands and it was very close and when they'd pass and they passed you know it was like there's things to do we need to you know i never registered or any grief there because it was another frisbee on the pile you know and and um put your head down and work and when you don't know what to do if you've got so many problems help someone else with theirs that's you know uh put your head down and go and so i just did that and i think speed really helped me to do that again speed that's you know uh put your head down and go and so i just did that and i think speed really helped me to do that again speed thank you you know brought to you by brought to you by snorkel well and and in the last seven years or so sort of starting with the tony bourdain

who's it just got me that got me good you know and and i close friend a good buddy yeah and uh and eagles death metal got attacked to the bataclan and there was a lot of people there that was so much like two phones talking to the fbi and the you know the special force of france and get people home and just it was just like there was no time to to sort of uh get your head around what was going on you know because there was so much work to be done right and it was important and also protecting everyone that was that made it you know too yeah from the world from this you know geopolitical mind fuck for a rock band yeah it's like you know and uh as a musician we we die young so it's like then all of a sudden, whether it's Taylor or Mark Lanigan,

who used to sing with us, and my best friend, Rio Hackford, is just the best person. It's just too young at 52, the two little ones. And you realize Hitler had to kill himself. That guy was a total asshole. It's like you have people that would switch. Really, this guy had to kill himself and and you're gone and you know the frustration and the um the sort of pushing fairness yeah the unfairness and

the you know those those stages of grief where you're bargaining like what can i do there must be something i can do there's got to be a way i've thought my my way out of and into things that there must be a way just i've never learned so much as i have in the last five years you know and everyone went through so much and i too went through a lot of stuff it really took till the last year or so to just get to the acceptance part did you you take time off for grief? I chose to in the last five years in particular, which I suppose had a certain level of convenience because the world was...

We all did. Yeah, and so it somehow aligned with that. But it also left everyone, and certainly me, choiceless. It was time to sit in it. There was nowhere to go. I've always been into big change, but I've always been the agent of that big change so much of the time. And this was big change that kept happening where it doesn't matter.

And are you changing or are you administering change? Yeah, well, I think when you're administrating, you think that you're administrating you think you you think that you're you're changing but really you're sort of moving geographical locations or mental geography and and thinking that's a grand change and it's like no you're about to reveal yourself to a bunch of new people or something again to that you know yeah but this was different because it was all these situations were essentially it doesn't matter if you like it or not this is here and there's nothing you can do about it and so you can have as many wishes as you want or as many bargaining chips as you want but they're of no

use here now and so that just takes first admitting the reality of where where you're at you know and and you know i have i have three little ones and i just they're my they're my favorite thing and so being around them and seeing that life cycle in someone small that lives in your house those short people that live in my house small that lives in your house as short people that live in my house and and people who i wish so desperately were still here and they're just not and it took i mean it was a lot of work in the last five years and just sitting sitting in it sitting in it did you write about it did you think about it did you how did you process it i tried i did a little bit of this emdr stuff about it did you how did you process it i tried i did a little bit of this emdr stuff which i actually quite liked yeah it's great because it it had actually some data backing up about what i get to do reality i i somehow feel like i need it can't just be like i said i romanticize my

ideals i want to take a leap of faith but it can't just be mumbo jumbo yeah because then i just feel duped like well yeah like i bought the elixir from a carnival bar what did you think and if it does work you can't you'd never believe compared to what yeah like there's no reference point for that i really i enjoyed the mdr and i and i think really because i couldn't write about it and i couldn't start playing because i was just too do you journal anything like that I I do well I write and I and my notebooks are a bit journal a bit um you know complain bored a bit appreciation station and a bit poetry and a bit remembering stories and and and and hoping for future ones you know and so they're

real mission tell me what do you mean by remembering stories well sometimes you know if i have a memory i'm not much for nostalgia because it kind of makes me feel bad for some reason it's like i look back and i i tend to remember only the good stuff and i so i'm like oh oh yeah and i think that's part of what i've had to learn to deal with in managing loss I tend to remember only the good stuff. And so I'm like, oh, oh, yeah. And I think that's part of what I've had to learn to deal with in managing loss is that it's okay to, that's all I've got of lots of these people now is memories. So if I'm not willing to be nostalgic, then I'm icing out these people that I love, you know. And I also learned like I can still love them now. You know know I don't have to stop loving someone because they're not here and and and in that way I guess I it makes me feel good because it makes me feel like I'm sort of celebrating what I knew you know about them

you know so you will write a memory yeah in journal of the time me and Tony or me and Taylor. Yeah, me and – and especially when they're brutal. Like I said before, I just love willful stupidity because we're agreeing like, let's do this. Gene Shorts, everyone, let's rock. jean shorts everyone let's rock you know and i so i you know a stupid walk through new orleans with rio yeah uh on a night that should be forgotten and it's like no no no no no i'm just gonna admit that instead and i won't and i said i won't forget that you know like we did something regrettable lamentable but we did it and i can't pretend we didn't yeah it's just i'm so glad the police were cool you know that would be a good name for your memoir um what did you come away

with it's managing loss is it about admitting more admit just facing it well you know i've always been telling myself and and and to some degree doing a fairly good job of being in the moment and i think my drug of choice also kept you locked in your moment yeah it's like you're right here you're really there standing on the ground so hard at the expense perhaps of the other worlds you really do live in. It's like, you know, almost to the neglect of that, perhaps. But I've always, you know, tried to be a bit of a nowist. And I think in managing the loss, you know, something I would have perhaps thought was cheesy before,

which is like appreciation. I realized that's my own fear and insecurity. And like, how could there possibly be something wrong with appreciating the moment you're in? Things like appreciation suffer from like the borat wayne's world rick james thing which is everyone says my wife everybody says schwing everybody says i'm rick james bitch those three things are fucking excellent on their own yeah yeah but then they get people just they like it too much and they just say it

too much and it becomes annoying it because it starts to represent something else what appreciation gratitude those things are great the problem is they just ended up on too many doilies and magnets and goofy yeah like right next to it's wine 30 or this is mommy juice right that's exactly right. The bad marketing aside of that, my realization that appreciation is something I do with myself. It's something silent and silence and patience and quiet. When you're facing a tsunami of difficulty and complexity that feels so hard to untangle, to even begin to try to participate in getting somewhere good

against all this static, the whole New Queens record is simply walking through these kind of stages of grief and and and hallelujah and coming to a spot where you say where you identify what the reality really is and and can accept that you the you have a block your disbelief that's been my biggest one to deal with yeah but that's what i'm disbelief of the thing about acceptance is it's infinite trust on your part to accept something to think that something is it's right that tony died yeah it's right that taylor was supposed to just all these things you're like how is that possible yeah it's such a leap of faith it is and and

disbelief and it's deep down at the bottom sense not just the the dollar store disbelief where it's like well man i just fucking can't believe it i just can't believe it it's not it's it's the hard part has been like there must be a way there's got to be a way even with my own drug use and stuff like that it's not like i i never really you know there wasn't too much collateral damage and stuff and so it's almost like a charmed existence through that with minimal damage and and so that leads you to believe that you can do that forever but that's just not the way that's just not realistic it's not sustainable yeah and and what it really meant is i was storing up emotion for years in a dam that when it cracked, it almost killed me.

You know, when that dam cracked and I was a broken guy. What did broken guy look like? I went to rehab, not for drugs and alcohol at that point because I had been, they were more like just because I wanted to take myself out, you know. I was ready to go. Like suicidal thoughts? Yeah. And then you were like, all right, this is not good. I got to.

It wasn't that. And I'd never had a suicidal thought in my life. So this was such a new experience to understand Tony. I'm so mad at him. To understand him all of a sudden. And to be like, I got it. I'm so mad at him. To understand him all of a sudden. And to be like, I got it. I see.

So every second is like an hour. Every second is like a minute. Every minute is like an hour. Every hour is like a day. And every day is an eternity. How do I, how do I, I got it.

I can't do that. I can't. It's too much. I can't do it. I can't. You know. Yeah. You it's too much. I can't do it. I can't, you know, you see no way out. Every time you push, it just collapses on itself, you know? And boy, that was miserable. And boy, that was, that's sitting in it's where you're like, you know, that's one of those things where that you want to test your will and your endurance.

It's like, that's unbearableable it's truly unbearable people cannot bear it they end their life yeah and and and to to to to be like oh my god i'm i'm right here it's terrifying it's terrifying to realize like this may not work out right you know and to be honest i don't know i don't even know how i made it through those times it's almost like a it's it's not a blur unfortunately I remember you don't mind me asking did you go to friend loved one and say here's what's going on I need to go somewhere you know I've always had such a confidence breeds confidence panic breeds panic don't let him see you sweat that I was like i just couldn't get some words are so difficult to get past your lips even though you mean them and you know yeah but it's it's like say them out loud and then they exist oh my god i brought i

birthed this monster person now yeah well and and it's like i i realized i'd never asked for help you know if you needed help i'd be, whoa, let's move that car. Let's do that thing. Are you feeling okay? It's like, you know, I could sit and listen, but just to do it, to get it, to ask for it. Oh, my God. What a nightmare. Yeah.

You just felt weak? Yeah. And it's just like, no, no, I'm here to help you. That's what I do. I don't get help. The wrench doesn't need a'm here to help you. That's what I do. I don't get help. The wrench doesn't need a wrench. Yeah, that's very well put. Thanks.

Used to write for TV. So you told a friend? It was obvious. I got circled by my folks, and it was like, you need to go here so that you're here tomorrow going for emotional trauma and heartache and it's a real eye-opener because um you couldn't feel worse and it isn't because of the any drugs yeah and so you're like oh my god in my natural state i equal zero right now and just something about the devil made

me do it or it's like it's because of the drug it's nice it's a nice excuse yeah but by then i hadn't touched drugs for you know months and months and months and seven six seven months you know and uh so i was far beyond that it was actually making a run at like putting it down forever so it you start by having to admit this is you yeah there's no yeah i always say like no i'm just if i do something it's not because i'm drunk i'm just an asshole yeah yeah and i and um that's a paper bag that fighting your way out somehow is really really really tough and and but by the same token now kind of five years out i couldn't be more thankful for all that shit because i i i've never learned so much in such a condensed period of time

that i really needed to learn that i'd been putting off for so long you know the when you say that condensed period of time you mean like the free fall period so to speak this this last five years has been such a learning process and and that disbelief of like there's got to be a way to fix this so the disbelief was you didn't believe that you were powerless you know and making records and collaborating with people i'm like there's there's a way to say all things there's a way to do all things even though I present as someone that's maybe brash or brutal, that's not really always my way. And so I thought it's my own inability to see my way through this maze. It's my fault.

There is a way. But some of these things, there is no way. And that's where the acceptance is so crucial, is to recognize the reality and admit that this is what it is and then be okay with it and say, I get it. You forgive somebody, even though it feels like you shouldn't or couldn't. You do. You should.

You let someone go by knowing that's the only way to hold on to them too. I'd hate to be the person that held on too tight longer than they should have. The agony associated with that grip is too much to bear at this point. I'd rather deal with the difficulties and the hardships associated with moving on. It sounds like you had to relearn your value system yeah in a way well i think like drugs are not yeah drugs are not confrontation they're avoidance yeah asking for help isn't weak or pussified or yeah it's like okay and you you don't really need drugs no once you once you start i'm already feral enough that's the thing is like is like uh yeah and and and also you know um turning around

and looking at the short people who live in my house and saying people can say anything they want but it's what you do that is really who you are and i've been knocked down a lot but i just want them to see me get up without saying too much if i could give someone even five minutes less of what i went through in their own life i would do it you know what do you mean by not saying too much like those i've had all kinds of things written about me and things like that and i and i and i i do a good job of staying away from that but i have little ones too and it's like i've been hated before and it's okay in fact i almost understand you know it's like i get it but by the same token it's like uh it's not my job to go door to door and prove somebody that that that's not correct that's

actually this and but when you have little ones it's like i need it is my job to show them what what you do when that situation occurs how you behave how you act and now in those moments words don't do a lot to change the situation it's just like having enough self-respect to just put your shoulders back and your chin up and say let's go you know and to walk that run that gauntlet walk that gauntlet and and those are the situations where words don't matter so much you know their creation of words and but that just ends up being a bunch of bullshit for a while and uh taking what i'd learned about sharing and talking and melding it with the importance of when to not say anything made me feel like i'd united both sides of myself you know

because before you know i'd be like raising money on drugs like the and not seeing the do out there not seeing the double not even noticing you know i'd be at. I was at a DEA party on speed. It's like I was just raising money for the opioid crisis. And never once felt that there was any irony there. I was like, I'm doing a good thing. But realizing this, like, no, no, no. Okay, okay. There's a moral bankruptcy there.

I think I'm doing the right thing, but I'm not noticing what a fuck-up I'm being. Yeah. And what's the point of that, you know? And so it was sort of, in a Carl Jung way, sort of uniting that shadow side with my light side. And I think the great thing about kids is it is what you say is 2%, and what you do is 98%.

That's all they have to see, you know? Especially, you know, especially, you know, it starts out, they don't know fucking English. So they're just watching you. Yeah. They watch you on like in a way that they do not watch others,

you know? Um, and, and just wanting to like, I'd like to do a good job, you know, I would like to do a good job with them. And like it requires doing a good job.

I guess. When you say disbelief, it's... I suppose it's bargaining too. When you lose somebody, whether they've died or just relationships come to an end, I think you say to yourself, there must be a way. know and and really there isn't and when you don't when you when you deny yourself the right to say there isn't a way man i'm we're here

this this chapter is over and you deny that you really sort of present the agony of oblivion like because you're just kidding yourself you know and it's so fucking agonizing yeah you're you crying is like an admission yeah it's like uh things are not gonna be the way they were yeah well and i was that notion it will never it'll never get back to where we were. And should that be your expectation even to get back to where you were? It's like this is an icebreaker traveling on the ice, man. It don't go back to where we were. It don't go that way.

Yeah, but I liked it. Yeah. I want to hang on. Yeah, I liked it. I knew how to do it. I got good at that it. Yeah. I want to hang on. Yeah. I liked it. I knew how to do it. I got good at that reality. Yeah. And now you're telling me that reality,

it's a funeral for that reality. And you're like, fuck. Yeah. God damn. I don't want to. Yeah. That's what like a true acceptance of like,

that's the way things are. You're just defeated. Right. Well, that's what I used it.'re just defeated right well reality's over but that's right i used it so the word surrender was yeah he hated it it's like we're giving up we're giving up to for what reason you know insurmountable odds that's all i need tell me we can't win and i know there's a chance right we've got nothing to lose now right and and but then realizing that surrendering there's a surrender which is giving in and the

the absolute polar difference there that polar opposites there of giving up and giving in like i surrender to this situation i understand it is what it is and and how that acceptance is actually a peaceful thing because it's like i don't love it but i get it i got it i see yes those are my claw marks but i'm done doing i'm done clawing at that you know yeah i fuck this show is sponsored by better help we talk about therapy every pretty much every episode if you haven't gotten the inkling yet, I believe in therapy. It's helpful. I've gone to countless sessions.

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create an account and redeem blocks for $20 off. Download GameTime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest prices. I guarantee. Patience. It's never been my thing not i'm not shocked well i think my daughter was put on this earth to to try my patience and and challenge and create this for me you know and um and she's done a a great job of teaching me that you know because uh you know i remember when she was she was three and she used to hold my face and go dad

be gentle and it's weird to hear it from that height in that cadence you know and i thought i always say little girls yeah fucking they could literally solve the middle east yeah yeah they could they could they just go and be like no they're they they have no self-doubt yeah good morals yeah and they're incredibly persuasive because they're so cute and forceful and they're sort of emotionally more advanced than boys their age and all that. And their father, apparently. Because it was like, huh. It felt like big dumb man right with brick.

Listen to girl. It's like, huh. Okay, okay. I could do that. Patience just seemed like this vital tool that was always missing from my tool bag that I was like you've gotta invest go down to fucking Home Depot and get buy you a patience hammer and get to get cracking with that so I just but but I also feel like patience came with some of these other these mountains to climb you know in order to sit in these things and just let them wash over you, you had to have the quiet and the patience to do it or have no chance. And so it was like, in my own exile, the patience was like, you're talking to yourself going, you're not very good at this, but just keep going with you, man.

My only experience with patience has really come in the last five years well it's also as you were talking about this thing about like the skills or values that men in our culture are taught to have yeah patience is like a soft power thing and we're all it's all most of what men are taught is hard power well yeah i i and i also think that the situation to you know there's, there's a reason for that to a certain extent that I understand, which is like, you know. Hitler. I mean, kind of. No patience. But meaning, even hearing you talk about your grandparents, your parents, they didn't live in a world where emotions were valuable.

They couldn't worry about, hey, hey guys storming the beach of normandy what are you going through right yeah how are you feeling about it give a fuck yeah they could not give a fuck well they were not it wasn't they it was a luxury they did not have yeah and and i and i think this notion of we'll set that aside for later and we'll pile pile it up we'll get to it on this on the to-do list and you can there's value in that it's it's there at least on the to-do list right yeah and and it's just something that is important to do though finally and yes and they never did it they never got to it they got back from the war and they drank well and and i was i i respected my grandparents so much you

know they said something i believed it you know i i for so long i just and and it really was uh that was my moral compass and they were good people too and so at some point in this life which doesn't have a hitler you know that and there is time to sort of deal with your emotions it's like it only took me until i was about 45 to get there. Yeah, I get it. All right, we've got another one here, which is conflict. Or not avoiding conflict. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, actually, it dovetails with what I was just going to say,

which was that it's a tough world out there. It's rough. And if you're trying to do an idea that you believe in but that is kind of a fringe idea, you tell it to 10 people, 9 people are going to say, that's fucking awful. Don't do that. But that's how I know it's a good idea. Because if it's a great idea, then not everyone can have it right now. That's what makes it that way. So you get used to fighting for, advocating for yourself and your gang.

And in order to keep something afloat, like a band, when you're starting, you're kind of constantly fighting for yourself and your gang. There's no stupider idea than a band. Yeah, it's bizarre. It's the dumbest.

It's bizarre. What are you doing? And the chances of it working are almost zero. Yeah. But do something smart. Open a restaurant. Do something dependable. Well, it's also based on we're all going to commit ourselves

to this nebulous idea of trying to make honest art. What are the songs? We don't know. We don't know yet. Getting someone to invest in it is even a dumber idea. Well, that's a whole other... And I think, too, that's why you find yourself just shoving against this at all times and sort of advocating for yourself

because people want to go in and just finger-bang it to change it. This is great. You should actually, if you just did this and this and this and this and this, because that worked once for someone else before. And so in trying to be your authentic self with people investing in that emotionally and financially and all that, it's a constant battle. I'm reminded of something Chappelle said one time.

I mean, he said it multiple times, but he he's like never tell your jokes during the day right it's there's something like metaphorical about it like there's no don't he's like you can't pitch jokes to people yeah during the day they have to be seen on stage yeah and i the equivalent is i i never let anyone hear anything till it's completely finished i because you can't use your imagination totally agree anytime i've sent in something and said sound is not final color is not final their first thing is is this the sound well and you've asked them to have a comment too. I'd rather have someone But I said the sound is not final. Right, and they're like, well, maybe

the sound then can do this, you're inviting this. And the notion of saying it's kind of like this, but it's blue and it's bigger and it's that, it's like I want, even our managers, when our record is finished, that's the first time it can hear. And I also realize the benefits of that being that when someone hears it completed,

whether it's a joke or a song, they're hearing this finished thing and they've actually got a real chance to be the very first fan of it. Because when they hear it and it's finished and they go, wow, this is great, the only thing they can do is turn around and say, have you heard this new neil brennan thing like it's it's a legitimate genuine appreciation and that's all they have to give or they're like this is finished and guess what sucks and and you've got a real take on it yeah you know but i also i say that like i can't I also, I say that like I can't listen. I can't play stuff.

I can't do it. I'm a good rewriter, meaning I'm good at doing a joke. Punching up someone's, yeah. But also my own shit where I'll do it and be like, eh, no, that's like, that wasn't, this can work. Yeah, but it needs it. I need to tweak it. Yeah. So, but when i play it for you i think it's final yeah and and then and then the audience go and that's the great thing about

comedy but see yeah you need that binary where it's like it no that isn't comedy yeah you thought that was comedy that's not comedy it could maybe it could be i don't the audience doesn't know but they i i'm good at like going oh okay yeah but do you need that push you need that push and pull with the audience to find yeah it's just in that vocalizing it that you're realizing you know it can't just be a thought in your head you have to i have to watch it go through their filter and be like oh yeah i didn't know yeah yeah i've been doing a joke i've done it twice or three times about mental health and how it's overrated it's it's totally contradicting everything i've stood for 10 years don't worry about um but it is a joke so it's comedy guys but it's like lincoln was so depressed that he was like hey should we end slavery all right so that to me is so fucking funny the audience doesn't think it's

funny they think it's racist then i do two more beats and they think those are funny so i didn't think they'd think the first line was racist so now i have to re address address it so it doesn't sound like it's even a joke whatever whatever but it's a it's like where you hear shit you're like oh okay i didn't know you were gonna think that yeah but see i've always been such a comedy you know ever since i saw george carlin when i was nine who i just uh and you know my folks at the desert inn when you had to get a jacket you know you had to get a rental did you see him live yeah yeah and my folks my dad was like george carlin's funny right and you know we don't swear around my grandparents or my parents you know and it was i'm nine i've

got a man's jacket i look like i won the pga it's like a mustard yellow and he just destroyed me his love of the language the turning of the phrase didn't matter if it's like you know get on the plane mr carlin fuck you i'm getting in the plane leave that for the daredevils and the seven words you can't say which blew my mind yeah or readdressing the ten commandments down to two you know and coming from a religious family it's like yeah no i i that changed my life like talk about carlin as like a cute but it's like the first person where i was like oh it's like this guy's his own society yeah it's whatever you want it's his own civilization he's rewritten he's looked at it and come to a pointing out hypocrisy it's like that guy's fucking unbelievable yeah and it i don't

talk about him enough but he's fine and you saw him at the desert and that's yeah nine that changed everything for me because comedy became because you know when you talk about if you want to making fun of something is making fun whether it was none you know if you yeah if you take away the fun of of when you're talking about something difficult to be able to make fun of it alleviates the heaviness of yeah i mean if you can't make fun of hitler what's left take them seriously yeah that's all that's left yeah something awful what's off you reduce it yeah and so but people now it's the culture would have you believe that reducing anything is is uh it's it's uh it's yeah but

impossible and yeah i know dare you and everything is massive and huge and must be honored in all that or dishonored let me dishonor this thing yeah let's have fun dishonoring and disassembling let's dishonor the pain or dishonor the you know don't give it the credence let's fuck with it let's let's finger this thing to death you know yeah just now but you've have things in your life that you would probably not like dishonor right but uh i well i have such gallows humor i just you know when life is good it's funny and when life is terrifying it's really funny totally agree uh i want to ask about the body clone i'm not going to yeah meaning i'd rather there are some things that are just hard to yeah and and i also think too it's it's um there are some things

that i've i have learned that there are some things that when I talk about, it doesn't make it better. It's just, and so I choose not to talk about those things because they just are that bad. Yes. Yeah. But Dave had the observation of like, everything's funny until it happens to you. Right. And I bet you understand that the Bada Klan

is never going to be funny to you. And it's never going to be. It would take a real specific hand to, you know what I mean? When you go to reach out to shake someone's hand that survived and they don't have one, it's hard to understand, you know. I've always been the sort of guy that's like someone's in a wheelchair i'm like what's up the chair how did how did this right i don't i don't like to leave this but this elephant in the bubble but then when you hear the story and uh and you know there are

some things where words fail to to exercise the difficulty out of. And words do their best to try to get close to that emotional feeling. But they just don't quite make it. The thing that I'm experiencing right now is I have a joke about the body climb that you've seen. Whether you realize it or not. I have seen it. So Isis has gone after a rock club in paris and they've gone after a gay club in orlando so i don't i just mentioned it in the setup yeah yeah and it's but i'm okay with

that right it's incredibly personal to you yeah and it's to me it's a piece of new you know i mean obviously like i watched the documentary and like i'm pretty well versed in it and jimmy carr and i have talked about a lot and like but love jimmy yes it's the best but but but but what i think is where many folks go wrong in my opinion is that you have to tell that joke and i have and and i know how i feel about it there's nothing that can change that right my feelings about it are remain unaffected by jokes for against with about that it's the that's that's what I already have yeah and I already have that experience you know and so it's like I when people get offended I'm I always think to myself oh my god you're such a precious

because everything else they've talked about someone has talked about didn't bother you you're okay to laugh for that and then someone someone william tells you and splits the arrow with the arrow and now you're like what the yeah how dare you and that's a bit of arrogance and the outrage because it's also just people have giant but also you're free to leave well yes it's one of the last freedoms for me it's one of america's great freedoms the freedom to split yeah right that no one seems to be able to touch i'm going it's like good yeah let me grab your bag yeah you know uh it's the it's the older you get the more you realize like it's the older you get the more you realize like not being near something it's critical one of the greatest gifts i don't want to say it's life's greatest gift but it's up there

being able to extricate yourself from things because your brain will stop thinking about it you will stop experiencing it emotionally it's a magic trick leaving it's a magic trick right get the out of there yeah that people don't realize like oh you don't like a person or a relationship or a situation or a smell or whatever go away from it yeah well I just can't but but for me it's whoa excuse I can't imagine saying I don't want to hear about this and also I need the entire conversation of everyone else about it to stop. That's the part I don't get, where it's like, I'm upset. And this has got to stop around me, although I'm not leaving.

So everyone's got to get involved with my exact wishes. It just seems like an arrogant throw that's always really annoyed me. And frankly, it makes me want to go at someone more in that way. wishes that it just seems like an arrogant throw that's always really annoyed me it's also i think frankly it makes me want to go at someone more and that course you know uh it's the world's unfathomably large and that people talk about like you have main character center or whatever we all have been cared it's it's the situation where i can only see it from these two eyes from this what fucking choice do you have yeah so but because you can't believe that there's this many experiences you just it's like when people go do you see your

spotify stats you know people spent 400 million hours listening to queens of the stone age and you're like that means nothing to me yeah that means fucking nothing to me and the same thing with i can't believe that my point of view isn't everyone's and it isn't incredibly important to everyone get started with mine too it's the actual call to action about it too it's worse yeah like hello people let's get started i'm offended let's get to work you know yeah okay that's a good one well all right we did i don't even know if we avoided if we talked about avoiding conflict i think we did i i just i'm i'm i'm ready to roll up my sleeves i have a gold tooth that i've earned in my life you know and i i've realized that as a big six foot five guy that i've been

told so many times like when you get angry it's scary i'm too big to get upset is what i've heard a lot of times right you're not you're not i'm not allowed yeah and so you know i've figured out a way to not let that make me upset yeah that's funny because i don't want to be easily manipulated by someone's frustration have you gotten better at to be easily manipulated by someone's frustration have you gotten better at the language of i hear where you're coming from and my experience is like because we're from a time yeah everyone just yelled fuck you you made me all these accusations and i'm well versed at that sort of back and forth dialogue use your words danny um and then and and i know where to put myself in all of that because being misunderstood or having a misunderstanding by nature is something that doesn't need to exist

but now does and i think good communication is the key and that also i also know that when i finally get the opportunity to say uh yeah but i don't give a fuck so why don't you shut the fuck up that that i'd hate to miss that opportunity as well and you don't you you're not ready to learn unlearn that you still think it's valuable i valuable. I still think there's a moment for everything. And I still think that those moments are so rare now. And I'm happy about that because I don't miss the bickering of bullshit. And of course, my friend would say, don't waste the hate. There's so few things worth the time. But I think a big thing for helping me of sort of avoid conflict has been really, you know, focusing on what I actually like. Now it seems very simple, but it's like, if I don't like this table, I don't want to bond over not liking it together. I don't want to be like this fucking thing. Look, the toots know two levels and the gold is bullshit and then you go yeah and that's how we become friends

yeah you know i really focus like that could be destructive long term josh are you saying that those well these things these things happen right and only sustain on a shared hatred and you start looking for shared hatred and then you're there you are welded to get welded together by trauma you know yeah and and and so i just think um really realizing how little time we have it's okay to say we're on the titanic it's we're all going to hit the water i i believe that's it's not negative it's it's like what do you want to do with the time we have left? Let's get into what, you know, there isn't tons of time left, Neil. Do you have a good eye for it? When to be contrite, when to be a peacemaker, and when to be a war maker?

I've made a lot of war in my days. And so it's gotten me really excited about, like I said, being a good communicator and working as a record producer. What is that? At the end of the day, it's really about being a good communicator and not having to put yourself all over a situation. It's not going through your filter. It's going through your conduit that isn't filtering anything. And I think that requires good communication. going through your filter it's going through your conduit that isn't filtering anything and and i think that requires good communication i love compromising you know um because that's what

collaborating is you know so um i've kind of lost my taste for war you know because it it takes up so much time and spirals out of control i mean all right here's devil's advocate has war been good to you i've learned a lot meaning have you great songs great shows great from war yeah yeah but i've also learned that anger is that it's okay to drive your car on anger for 50 miles but you don't want to run on that all the time it'll burn you out and and you know it having that be your focus anger war like conflict you know constantly gritting your teeth like that there's it's just uh in terms of and in that discussion of we're on the titanic and it's sinking so what do you want to do with your time left i think i'm done spending my time there you know

i'm done spending my my time in the unpredictable time suck that is heavy conflict there's just not enough time for that now yeah i also think it's kind of a young man's game yeah yeah i'm 50 how old are you 49 yeah i'll never be 50 yeah i would fucking imagine me fucking you know it's a heavy responsibility to get lost i will never someday when your mother and i can imagine me i'm gonna believe both of our ages um i mean we just kind of talked about this and it's a risk being addicted to risk that's a very interesting concept yeah i mean i i you know i have learned how to focus that because i i my mind has always said that risk nothing get nothing the risk is where the reward is you know and um

and i've really sort of focused that into music so much you know i mean you know i always think of 20 of the people don't hate you you suck you know you have to be willing to risk leaving your audience part of them behind because they just want you to stay where you're at and things like that and so i've sort of taken a lot of the risk out of my daytime life by eliminating it from my nighttime life you know so that it's more in pursuit of art and music than it is like ending up with gold teeth your daytime life is more reasonable? It's more reasonable. And I've sort of plucked some of the behaviors out of my nighttime life that led to so much risk. And again, I think it's kind of a young man's game in a way.

It's weird to be the oldest druggie at a party. It's not a good look. And those are risks that are completely unnecessary and don't have a big payoff you know i think i'm more into the risk of making something and trying to make it deliberately sound unlike all things which has its own risk and i i value that more so that's kind of where i'm living my my risks out at this point and yeah more creative and less yeah unless like waking up somewhere and being like these aren't my clothes i think at one time i romanticized that

yeah life a lot of people do yeah it's not hard there's no barrier to entry yeah to be in a dirt bag it's like there's no anyone can the biggest losers can do it yeah and do yeah and and are doing it professionally yeah there's no standards well and the the problem is is that the standard that is there the the gold medal dirt bag is this not someone you want to like train to keep up with you know no it's it's all diving down so it's not it it's natural to play music and and love that life for a certain period of time but it's strange to to believe in it as a mode of existence that that you should that still be part of you know in all of its trappings yeah like it and it's dirt baggiest yeah i mean you know it's like you know i always say i've been thrown out of the best places in the world but uh i'm not sure that there's anything the impressive part is that you were in the best

places do you know what i mean yeah that's the you did You were there because you write good songs. You weren't there for any other reason. Watch me ruin this. That notion is... And it just feels stupid to subscribe to that now. It's like you're a phony for being at that nice place, but it's like, no, you're not realer because you got kicked out. It's not a barometer of realness. The realness is like you're great at writing songs you've got enough fans so you're so

dicky places go hey can you come well but i i never felt any like sort of guilt associated with that it was just like living that wild thing where it's like oh god really you know and dealing with the next morning of the aftermath of like that was a really nice party you ruined we're like you know I just would you you were actually ashamed of yourself no I just thought God oops you know I I think once again, it's just like, oh, just being, allowing yourself to be so out of control that the next day you're constantly dealing with, you know what you shouldn't have done. It isn't romantic and it isn't fulfilling and it's not sexy. It's just like, oh my God, you know, you got thrown out with the speaker from the wall under your arm by four people and you don't remember?

That's just not – I'd rather be remembered for something else. Would you have the shame spiral, which would then make you use more and all that? Well, I think what I would do is say, now I'm going to – I would convince myself like, I'm going to tighten the reins. I'm not going to let go of them. What about crazy? Yeah. You know? And I think it just,

it pulls you into this rationale that you're like, control it. I got it. But it's like, there's no controlling some of this shit. But you're controlling the level to which you get yourself out of control.

That's a bizarre outlook. It's like, I'm going to get out of control but i'm going to control that so that it's in the perfect region right you know it's like playing lawn darts and throwing it into the audience like i'm going to fix it yeah it's a crazy prospect that you're going to make that every time you can't it's either risky or it's not it's you can't mitigate you can't do risky you can't safely do you can't safely do drugs yeah basically except for you um for 16 years um emotional vulnerability well i mean this this is

just i do think that when you put everything you have into making a record, you can become a better person and leave baggage behind and really learn something. There's a real takeaway there. But it has to be where you're saying things that are scary to say and admitting your insecurities and what you're terrified about. So I've really learned through the record-making process to be okay with saying I'm terrified

that when I'm in pain and when I miss something, you know, and I'm really thankful for the record making process for that. I'm not interested in being the biggest band in the world. I've never presumed that I could be in such a thing, but I would like to be in the most honest thing humanly possible. And that requires just like being, doing that, being honest and saying things which are hard to say. But I do think because you're singing them and you're putting them into, pulling them into glaring relief in the framework of the music that they get a chance to be beautiful even when they're terrifying and uh and i really i really cherish that because it's so much different than just simply saying out loud what i'm terrified about being able to put it together in this kind of sonic photograph like really creates this opportunity to get it

really close to emotionally accurate and and to be and to simply just go you know what i mean without the burden of saying it in english without the poetry side you know um and and i i think that's like become my thing i treasure the most about what i get to do for a living you know um and and i i think that's like become my thing i treasure the most about what i get to do for a living you know it's like to be able to really um say it's not easy but it's okay you know there was a version of blocks when i did it new york and i had a section that I ended up not using for the it was kind of parental and blamey and all this and I think the way I rewrite a joke I am almost rewriting something's importance to me based on the audience's reaction if that makes if i'm explaining it correctly like i if you ever

you ever express something in a song and people's reaction you realize like oh i'm being a baby or i'm being a dick absolutely and it's it's a funny thing that people don't really talk about it's like oh no i learned from your rejection of that notion of uh that the thing i expressed that i gotta get over that yeah or or like i gotta say it the way it really should be said yeah like i gotta i can't i can't pussyfoot here i gotta be honest and not not try to look cool you There's no negotiation there. Sometimes in saying something honest and real that's about vulnerability,

you can't pretend to be cool in that moment. There's no way to sort of like, hey, babe. Or I was expressing a childish, it was like very blamey on my parents. And I think Lorne Michaels said, he's like after a certain age, it's like, it's just not being an angry young man.

It's not cool. Yeah. Difficult. It's not cool. It's like, you haven't figured out how to not to have a victim. Yeah. Or how to not be a dick on at work or how to be inappropriate all the

fucking time. Like you can't figure that out um but i'm curious if that happens yeah i think i i think i i've i tried to deliver that pill of vulnerability with a sense of humor and even though i don't get the immediate gauge of the reaction of that i i realized there's so many moments where in my own insecurity my reaction was you know bravado i and i think i realized how what a protective mechanism that was you know and i and i wouldn't change it because i'm here because of that and also they represent pulling a cell out of the film of your life and there's that moment i just think that i've let some of that the bravado is almost a protective protective well that seems to be your

whole thing meaning like you gee thanks no but like you were like this and then realize like oh i'm a human being and i should stop flexing and approaching everything from like this i think you said i think you you know in the beginning you're just moving at the speed of inspiration you're and you're trying to you know i guess my grandpa was always like you can't outsmart them i'll dumb them and then i was like if you can't outsmart them out weird them you know being obtuse and strange and coming from a weird angle and and um and as you sort of exhaust these like sleight of hand bits you know and you're kind of all armored up you take a piece of armor off every record. And by now, I have no armor

and I have only myself to give. And what I have is experience. And what I have is the amount of times I took a leap. And what was driving that leap is very different from what's driving the leap i'm taking now but but this is the process of perhaps it should be this way you know perhaps it takes the willingness to like go yeah i'm hurt but i'm pissed and let's go and in the moments when you should do that you know someone's someone's got to do it someone's going to be there doing it and i and i

i'm also i'm okay with what i've done and the mistakes i've made in the and the successes that have been there too because really every situation is situational there's no there's no way to figure out how to deal with or no advice you could take for what happens when your band blows up and you're and you're wanting to make art but it's gotten big and what do you do how do you mean yeah you know i mean it's it's hard to figure out what to do and and also you're fucked up all the time how's that going yeah you know and they're watching and they want to build you up and knock you down because you know i that is a really interesting Rubik's Cube to do.

I'm okay with the moments I've failed. Because I'm here now and I feel pretty good. Yeah, I'm glad it all happened. Yeah, there's part of me that thing of I couldn't be here if I hadn't gone through that. Yeah. But I always want to say like, oh wish i didn't have i wish i could just there was just a thing i could do yeah i mean and i did try i you know ayahuasca and dmt and mdr and everything tms i wish that it was a button i could have pushed of course obviously i'm not gonna apologize or feel guilt about the things i've tried or the people i've been or the mistakes i've made

but you wish like well of course fucking mad if there's a wand yeah well then but then you start saying this was a long sequence in order to push the button that i'm here now you know right yeah it's just it's just that to do the the nuclear codes are complicated you know i had to put all that in before i could push the fucking button yeah all right anger associated with feeling ostracized i that seems huge it's been a that's been a huge driver you know i uh you know i'm six five but i always loved poetry felt always strange to wreck to reconcile these things where it's like well you should be playing basketball shouldn't you son and you know and it's just like oh fuck off you know i'm a poet god damn you yeah and you

know i've got red hair and my my brother's my brother's not gay, but his husband is. And so feeling like killing bullies, I had the build and the willingness to protect people from bullies. So I felt forced into that job a little bit. I remember we would walk to, I was in kindergarten, I guess. My brother, he's two years older, so he would have been in second grade. And we would walk to and fro school about 10 blocks through a neighborhood, and there was this bully. He would ride his bike around us, call my brother faggot and spitting.

You know gleeking where you go, yeah. So he'd gleek on us. And I us, call my brother faggot and spitting. You know, gleeking, where you go, yeah. So he'd gleek on us. And I'm looking at my brother. I'm five and my brother's seven. And we had our heads down. And, man, it hurt. It just hurt. And it felt scary.

And I didn't understand. And I was like, isn't my brother going to? What are we supposed to? We told my dad. And he was like, well, you know, if you don't take and I was like, isn't my brother gonna, what are we supposed to, we told my dad and he was like, well, you know, if you don't take care of that bully,

you can't come home and I didn't realize that he was probably joking around. I just was like, look at my brother, like, shit, we can't go,

we can't go home. Yeah. What are we gonna fucking do? We gotta, and so the next day i took you know the same thing you know and i just picked up a stick and i put in the front wheel of his tire and he just went boom and face first no hands boom and we ran and ran i could we could i could hear that kid screaming for blocks i mean you want to talk blocks you know and and he was in my brother's

grade so he was seven and uh uh and but I just remember looking at my brother like we can go home you know we can go and so I always felt like obligated if I saw something that seemed unjust that I had to like intervene you know do you fit and it's from the kind of the dad joke which by the way i wouldn't mind stopping for a psa don't fuck with your kids like this because you don't know when you're a kid you don't know what reality is yeah so there's just when people make jokes and shit you're like i guess i'm supposed to do this yeah i don't know that you're joking i don't i barely understand com like anything yeah i think your view your viewpoint of the world is is um it's very uh literal it's shaped by

the the words your family gives you yeah Yeah. And my dad's fucking awesome. Yeah, of course. But I'm saying, so do you have a good sense of justice and injustice and you need to be a vigilante and all that stuff? No. I just think it's easy to recognize that base level unfairness when something like that is happening. Yeah.

I just always felt like I was supposed to stop someone from taking taking advantage like that and so it put a strange took me years to be like to not not it's not like i'm like uh oh it's none of my business so you're on your own sir like it just uh it was such a a part of my life you know where it's like i felt like i was supposed to intervene and i didn't always enjoy that feeling you know scary it's responsibility yeah like you're it's you're putting yourself in the line of fire it's like i know that this is none of my business but right but couldn't help it over here that's part of that risk thing too or just like uh you know like i because i grew up in palm desert where there's like only five people born there every year but hundreds of people die every year surrounded by old people so i grew up really loving old people and their stories and the you know they always had the great stories especially

that generation you know so like little old ladies across the street was always like yeah of course yeah here we go you know we're moving gertrude crane she's moving to the over here it's like yes of course and so just like that sort of 50s american dream like if you see trouble say yeah and um it's not that i wanted to ever extricate myself from that it's just like i've learned to sort of be like d are you the older i get the more i realize everyone feels ostracized yeah there is no group there is no core group yeah and then you'll have that you do you do spend a lot of your early life believing there's a group. Fuck yeah. I mean, not even early life, like yesterday.

It's hard to disabuse yourself of an inherent FOMO because you can't believe people aren't. We're always looking in at shit. We're always looking at like, the whole existence is grass grass is great it's well i do think it's it's it's you know for me that always emanates from to understand somebody or to be understood feels so good and it's so fleeting it's just not a last it's you know it's it's like a mint it's gone as soon as it starts you know and and i and and um you know feeling ostracized really feels like

being misunderstood and it's it hurts to be misunderstood yeah um or not accepted yeah and because you're like well no no it hurts to feel like the need to explain no actually it's you're wrong it's this and um and i i think i've let go of that you know um it really drove and shaped how i what music i made and how because i thought fuck you know i'd never join a club that would have me as a member fine i'm i'm i'm gonna make stuff deliberately on the outside you won't understand it you're not equipped to get it right but it must have gotten it's gotten to the point where you're playing the group you guys us pretty big group yeah you're not in small clubs do you know what i mean reconciling that was actually tough like that you could do well you're not supposed to like it i mean i used

to call punk rock guilt yeah and the people from my hometown were always like do well but don't do too well yeah are you fucking rocks down now what's your problem buy me a beer what's what's wrong with you yeah i don't know why they're from these yeah they're from boston yeah because boston is the patron saint of that attitude uh patron saint of patronizing of like don't they don't i don't we don't appreciate that yeah uh who the fuck you think you are i think it's about self-acceptance i think it's about like for sure by yourself can you accept what you're like yeah and then once you can do that then you kind of care significantly less about what other people now having said that almost impossible to do well i truly accept yourself you know i i i shouldn't have probably put that as a block because it was one of the first things i really dealt with a long time ago because you're forced

to deal with it and what we do yeah because you need to stand out on your own it's the minimum obligation of being in a band or being a musician to not sound like everyone else right i mean isn't that the minimum obligation it's not supposed to be like, hey, this guy's like ABBA. It's not supposed to happen like that. Same with your comedic voice. It's like 99% of what makes up people is the same, the mundane stuff. It's only the 1% that's different, and you're supposed to amplify that. That's how you sound different. But I hope you better help people like it.

Yeah, that's the thing. Well, I think I've let go of all that too because i i i can't control that but i know one thing for sure that if i make something i really love you'd be surprised the amount of bands that and musicians that make something like do you listen to your record like no fucking way i never want to hear it again and that always struck me as odd because it's not like that's what i'm jerking off to my own stuff i just it means that if you make it with honesty and the vulnerability and the and and make something that you don't hear out there so if i hear it then i'm not doing that i'll try something else you know but but to make something you really love and that way so it attracts people that

could really love it you know yeah you know you're trying to attract those like minds you know and so so i also realized like it's like it's okay to be i'm proud of what i did that's i worked really hard that's okay i don't need to take it any further but i don't need to flog myself either and be like this sucks i'm awful i shouldn't have done that i shouldn't have done it man yeah or have some mock version of that mock humble yeah where it's like yes well thank you very much it's selling yeah it's funny it's you know when i wrote it i was yeah um so i probably shouldn't have put that one in there no please what are a couple of the things you've done that really helped in terms of any one of these things tm was a big deal for me transcendental meditation

when you want to get away from yourself how do you pull that off crystal my friend chris who taught me come on up i i think tm was great because it also helped with patience and acceptance and taking that beat you know i i uh it's so the polar opposite of of crystal yeah you know i mean it really is like they don't even know each other yeah and and but calming yourself and when you really you know tm it really is about the gift of nothing and doing nothing yeah and you can't do it wrong you know if you have a thought you just take that and just pick up your mantra and no yeah and and and they're supposed to come these thoughts are supposed to come and you're supposed

to help them exit out really calmly so i think that was a really big help for me and therapy the emdr was really great mdr therapy i i found that to be really good i i don't currently go or i'm not in therapy, but I'm not for any reason. I'm not against it. I guess I was always suspect of something that never said, you're good. You can go.

We're good. We made it. But that's just that insecurity of not wanting to be played a fool by something. I think if you have a great relationship with a therapist, you have something really great to work from there you know and not every therapist as you know is is worth their salt some you're like not they're not they're not great yeah but so that that really the tm and the emdr really helped and i mean i tried kind of everything in the last five years i was just really searching for something you know and at the end of it all i came back to the thing that's

that i've sort of caught my teeth on which is which is you know making music and and you know there's this there was this other thing that really helped to this active listening this actively you mentioned i have a joke yeah yeah yeah you're an active listener mom yeah no guy yelling girl on the streets being nice it's always sexual it's always about her boobs or a butt it's never about her personality i've never once seen a guy on the street like damn baby you look like you got leadership skills you are active listener ma you active listener especially as a father it's like active listening engaging in this thing but not having to insert yourself into everything too it was just really

helpful it was like i wish they would have taught me that as soon on my first kid you know it's like being an active listener engaging and and letting someone else come to the realization of how to solve their problems instead of solving problems for people or thinking you could. Yeah, it's the if I hear you correctly. There's an FBI negotiator who said the key to negotiation with a hostage is just to say, let them talk. And they go, if I hear you correctly, and basically repeat back to them what they said, and it ends most standoffs. Yeah, well, but the beautiful thing about this premise is that you're giving someone all the respect in the world by saying, I want to make sure I heard you and that in hearing that I understand what you said and then giving them the ability to say

okay 80 correct there's a few what i said was this and that way you're actually starting the staging point that you're both staging from is accurate and has no misunderstanding associated with it and and that is such a relief and a joy. Even when you're providing that, you see someone go, oh, especially when they're tiny type people. It's like that relief means you heard me. And there's a real gift there. And it creates a closeness immediately. And it's funny how saying something can give you a good feeling

that's really worth holding on to you're reading someone else's novel or something the thing about novels is you get to be another person yeah if you go like i read your book right and your book that you wrote about the fact that you can't get the the square peg in the round hole and like i'm and they go like you read my book yeah yeah that's like yeah we started on the same fucking page yeah like great so and then they don't even care they don't need you to solve it's not even a problem anymore yeah uh the problem is i'm isolate most problems are i'm isolated in this experience yeah what so then you go you're no longer isolated and they're like yeah Most problems are I'm isolated in this experience. Yeah.

And then you go, you're no longer isolated. And they're like, yeah, it's not hard. That's very true, though. Yeah. It's very true. It's the way to free someone, too. You're turning them loose or helping them turn themselves loose or turning yourself loose by just being heard. Yeah. It's like the firefighter is more just like, yeah, you're away from the fire but also like that was that must have been so scary yeah that must have been tough

yeah right and then they're like yeah it was fine yeah i'm good now yeah but i was mostly i was thought i was gonna die yeah movie of your life who plays you what's the arc the it's called i drank what who plays me i guess i have red hair so i'm just really closed in by bill i'll talk to bill burr yeah nice you know he shaved it though i know yeah that's a tough one josh brolin maybe we could do josh brolin it's a little short but i get it okay yeah and he's a josh too so that's good so we can just work right yeah go off the basics you know i've had there's been people that are like we should do your documentary we should if you ever want someone to write a queen's book and i just feel like i've already shared too much here today right

there's so much stuff i want to keep and and it also feels like i haven't lived enough yet for all that you know i like there's so much more living to do i probably only got you're like what do you have in mind what are you planning foss uh this is a separate question why what would be yours it's actually a really tough question mine would be about self-acceptance and about thinking i couldn't i thinking i had to be a satellite and just and then like the main planet mostly just dave being like i don't like rejecting the thing in so many words and then me having to go like okay yeah fuck all right let me okay let me be played by Dave Chappelle of course it has to be yeah it has to be um what do you think of the Metallica documentary I would never show anything

like that but I and plus my thing is so far from that i when i when i saw that in all honesty i was like i can't believe you're showing this yeah i'm thankful yeah i was just like i know it's all it's all like yeah it's all like oh don't show that don't even stay at the ritz well perhaps perhaps it takes it took quite a bit of guts to show that. Well, I totally agree. I'm just realizing that right now. It's just like, perhaps it takes quite a bit. I think in terms of being a demystifier, you've got it.

Yes, exhibit A. Exhibit A through Z, honestly. And I think I always, as I said, my romanticizing of what this process of what I get to do, um, looking behind the curtain that way, it's not my favorite look, you know, um, because, uh, that may have happened, but really is that where we're showing, you know, is that where we're showing? Is that helping the mystique or the, the, the, not even the mystique, is it helping people's experience of this there is something about music that you kind of look up to it like this and see

it i mean even when you're on there on stage you kind of go like this yeah and i think that very much made it like like this yeah and i'm not sure if we're supposed to be out in the same level and no i totally agree you know that's what's so incredible about i i you know it's also why i didn't play during the pandemic from my fucking living room because that's just not what i have to to give you know meaning like i turn the lights off yeah i turn the music up so you can conspire about how to be yourself and i won't tell you what to do you know that's what queens has to offer willful stupidity and a place where someone doesn't say don't you know what you should do i don't tell you who to vote for i don't fucking care you know i i

what i'm interested in is creating moments where we're in the moment together you know and where someone doesn't tell you who to be yeah that's what i'm after and um and i don't want to demystify that those nights like that they're valuable you know that's it like i say only now i'm like yeah maybe that was kind of brave but uh no thanks yeah i'm with you i mean that's the thing certain people revelations not for everybody. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.