Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Marc Maron

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

Neal Brennan interviews Marc Maron (WTF Podcast, Maron on IFC, HBO Special: From Bleak to Dark + more) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- Marc's blocks: 00:00 Intro 15:03 Eating Disorder 23:08 Drugs 27:13 Relationships 36:34 Codependency 44:14 Death 1:01:55 Biopic Question ---------------------------------------------------------- https://nealbrennan.com for tickets to Neal's tour Brand New Neal Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ---------------------------------------------------------- SPONSORS: https://betterhelp.com/neal for 10% off your first month Download the Gametime App and use code BLOCKS for $20 off your first purchase Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I have a Netflix special called Blocks where I talk about things that make me feel like something's wrong with me and alone in the world. Jimmy Carr had the idea, wanted to do a podcast where your friends come on. They talk about their blocks and we heal the world with it. My guest today is a guy I've known since 1992.

I was a doorman of the comedy club. You were a very young person, but when I'm 18, you're 27, 28, 29. 92? 92, yeah. Something like that. So you're 29, I'm 19. Wild. And you, Todd Berry, louis yeah are like seniors in

high school to me you know you always look so serious and you're kind of droopy and you have this long hair you didn't talk to anybody you know when no one knew what you wanted or what you wanted to do we all knew your brother yeah there was a lot what's funny is you said something to me back then that i think of as like a withering indictment and i'm going to tell you right now you go hey little brennan you famous yet so i knew which as a doorman you must have sent something i knew as a matter of time yeah you you knew i had the i had the shining oh yeah it. And, uh, and I wasn't doing anything about it, but you was,

here's what I'll say about Mark Maron. You're a fucking very astute person in general. You're a very good interviewer on the podcast. You have a really good sense of art, which is broad and pretentious, but like you can do it and you can talk about it. And you've gotten about it and you've gotten more mainstream as you've gotten older yeah which as a performer and a writer thank god

which i find funny and weirdly admirable because it must have been a decision where you've made it despite yourself or like you realize like what am i doing doing? I like Brian Regan. I like, well, I always liked those guys. I never thought that I could do what they do. I don't think I ever could. I, I think I can do more of a version of it now, but I ultimately think what happened was whatever I was working off of early on was not, you know, particularly funny to everybody. I think I was trying to make an impact of some kind. You know, I was angry because I was not comfortable with myself. And, you know, that's how I existed on stage. Well, that's what, to me, I don't know what your specific blocks are, but to me it's watching a guy, an angry, frustrated person in your core.

Your core, you came out of the box probably angry and frustrated or you were just a baby and you were put in bad situations that made you angry and frustrated and then it success and acceptance was felt like a tonic it felt like it was a bit like oh the embarrassing secret about success is it makes you feel good right well i you know not having financial worry yeah is is is the best i'm still sort of nervous about it i don't i don't think like a wealthy person you must have made a shitload of money on that podcast and now on the road you know and i you know and i you never mention it you know you don't dress different yeah you don't maybe a little different i know I know you bought the Keith Richards hat for $300.

Yeah, that was a little crazy. You know, and Dean, you know, kind of somehow got me to buy an expensive watch. Yep. I just don't think to do it, which is one of the problems, you know, one of the blocks, I guess. But I think it was more than any sort of decision or self-acceptance. any sort of decision or self-acceptance. I just think that because of the podcast, I was able to talk in a manner that didn't require any context

in the sense of it didn't have to be funny. It didn't have to be anything. It could just be me expressing myself in the moment because all the monologues are done in the moment, really. And I think that the evolution of those and then talking to other people about their problems sort of made me more of a whole person. I don't know that it was fame or success that really made a difference. It was the constant conversation going on that didn't have to be

funny. It could be thoughtful. It could be poetic. It could be whatever. I do this weekly writing that I just today realized I could put a book together. I've been doing a weekly sort of dispatch to my listeners for over a decade. There's hundreds of them. And I was reading one, and there's one guy, you know Mike Kaplan, the comic? He gets them, and almost every week he comments on them. And he's like, this is great. This is a nice piece of poetry.

It's your monologue in the beginning. No, no, it's just a newsletter oh you have a newsletter oh god right so and i it's just this free form writing i do every sunday and i send it out i don't know who reads it but i know mike reads it he's always very complimentary of what i put in there because it's just it's really just uh what's up with my head and what's going on in the day but i think to speak to what you were saying i don't know that it was it's a kind of success but i think but i don't i mean i don't mean monetary necessarily i mean it felt like a mass acceptance yeah i got somewhere yeah i landed because it wasn't looking good before the podcast so goddamn funny because i remember you talking about starting a podcast in the store the of the

uh before before anybody store kitchen yeah you're like yeah i just yeah we just come on jeff came on and like first way at the beginning no like literally i remember when you started like the first week yeah my show's really one of the architects of modern podcasting one of i mean i don't it's like inventing film noir right so that i mean it's its own it you started you were just like i don't know i'll do this yeah i don't even know if you could compare it to anything other than like there were i guess radio interviews like terry gross maybe maybe but like that's overly that doesn't give it enough credit it kind of evolved into something different but i think knowing that but even, if there's anything I get weird about it,

it's like everyone's got a podcast. It's a big goddamn joke now. Yeah. I don't feel disrespected. I don't think I don't get credit. And I do, you know what I mean? I think I do get credit. And I don't know why it happened that way.

It was just, we were ahead of the curve and there was desperation and it was cosmic timing. But there's something about being legendary and something yeah that means something to me it can make you feel closer to whole yeah right but in a way this wasn't my suspicions about myself yeah we're right all the things that you were kind of doing yeah i don't know if i had them i always i always jealous of people you didn't move out here for fucking nothing dude i moved out here because the woman i was with didn't want to be in new york anymore after 9 11 and i had i'm talking about in when you

moved out here in 87 oh yeah i did but you like literally had no idea how to be a human like how's it going but it's better it's better you know like you know i didn't know i didn't know anything i left uh college without any sense of how one functions in the world i swear to god when i bought my first house i didn't know you you didn't have to buy them in cash and and like i had to learn all these things but yeah i knew i wanted to be a comic i would argue knowing nothing you wanted to be a certain kind of artist. I felt that that, you know, out of all the things I did in my life, whether it was, you know, writing plays or directing or directing plays or doing photography or writing poetry, all this stuff that I tried as a liberal arts sort of aspiring intellectual person,

you know, I decided that standup was the way I could own myself and my output. You know, I'm talking emotionally, creatively, and also services me in the way that i'm realizing now which is it's all very immediate yeah i'm not the kind which is one of the blocks i'm not the kind of guy that's gonna like i might try it this year but the idea of working on you know writing and directing and producing a movie you have to put four three four years of your life into something that no one will fucking see yeah there's an immediacy to doing the podcast to talking to people, to doing standup that it appeals to me.

It happens in real time. But when I look at it, after all is said and done, when I know that's how I work, it's hard to feel like accomplished in a way until you do like a special. And then you're like, I had to refine that stuff. Because that's another one, a block too, you're like i had to refine that stuff because

that's another one a block two is that like do i do it right is my method sound i would argue that you outlasted it wasn't going well as showbiz was was composed in 2000 from 1990 to 2008 it was going okay yeah but you weren't you weren't changing you weren't chasing anything and you were just like i can't i gotta do this man right i was full of spite yeah i was chasing something and it was usually like it was all rooted in like why does that guy get that yeah but yeah i didn't know how to do it any differently and that's what i'm saying you didn't know how to do it any differently and then this thing happened a technology came yeah that was perfect for what your thing is but then that brought a different bunch of people and they didn't like i remember when i was doing stand-up and doing the podcast at the beginning like you, you know, people thought that like, well, we should go see him because, you know, we

want to be supportive. I'm like this, but this is what I do. I was good standup. Yeah. But I wasn't, you know, like there's a moment that happens when you're a standup where you're genuinely not afraid. Yeah. You know, you pretend to be not afraid for years.

Yeah. But there's a moment where you're like i there's no there's no fear as i yeah walk out onto this stage and you know for my audience none and that was miraculous but that i mean that only happened like a decade ago you know 25 years in or whatever yeah and i think that the fear and the assumptions you make because of the fear in doing standup, it affected my, what affects everything, you know? And I was, the difference is like, I didn't write jokes. I knew that that was how people did it.

I always envied that. You write jokes, you know, Attell writes jokes. I was surrounded by these joke people, Todd Berry. And I was a long form person that was scrambling that I, to create something, I had to speak it out loud. But even like, I hear you talk about, I'm a long form person that was scrambling that I, to create something, I had to speak it out loud. But even like, I hear you talk about, I'm a long form person. Are you talking about on your pocket? It's like, I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. I mean that like all the jokes evolve out of, out of a conversation that I initiate with an audience.

I, yes, but it's like. But then the jokes happen. Yeah. But it's like, it's harder. It's harder. It's like. But then the jokes happen. Yeah. But it's like, it's harder. It's harder. It's harder. It's harder. And it's like not for most people.

Right. So that's. So you were just fucked for, you were fucked for 18 years. Yeah. Because like, I try to write jokes and I didn't understand how to write jokes. And like, I wasn't, I'm not a turn of phrase guy. You didn't like it when you wrote them. No.

And when they come up naturally, I tend to bail on them because like they're so specifically like a ding-a-doong-a-do. And then like they work and you're like, all right, well, I guess that's not great. You know, like I've written them. You can see sets of me doing jokes, but they all happen the same way. It's not me setting out to write jokes. doing jokes, but they all happen the same way. It's not me setting out to write jokes. I used to, when I had different opportunities to do talk shows and stuff,

and I had writers who were writing jokes, even monologue jokes. I had a guy, we had a bit on the, was it Short Attention Span Theater? I think it might've been the pilot for a talk show that I did. Well, I actually interviewed Chappelle and Steven Weber of all people.

It was for, it was going to be for a pilot for comedy central it became the whatever they filled it with a daily show but i did a pilot of a talk show we we devised a machine to write monologue jokes where you have a setup and then you'd spin a wheel for the punch line you know there is a way that there's a structure to it but i never got it and i never had faith in it all i had faith in was my ability to react emotionally in a moment and be engaged with something I'm thinking about and then put myself in a position where I had to make it funny. That was the deal. So, you know, you're on stage, you got to make it funny. Did it work most of the time? No. But could I get frothed up sometimes

and get aggravated like at Luna Lounge and just fester and become this weird caricature of myself who is sweaty and yelling all the time. Yeah. But that was part of the process. But, but now, like right now, after this last special, I'm actually doing jokes kind of, I'm focusing on jokes, but I guess I always do. You're still using the same wheel. Yeah. You just think you're not using the wheel. No, I'm not. They're joke structures. structures yeah but they happen because of experience they don't happen there's nothing on paper neil there's nothing on paper mark i've seen that i'm not you think i'm it's not a critic what i'm saying is there's comedy like you're saying that i have whether i know it or not you have it whether you know it or not

it's like a it's like i'm not defensive right no it's like you do an act out whether you sure you just go i just came to it yes i came to it also three hours before i went on stage right right it's just a different process but see that's what i get off on it's like because like what i realized i love is like not knowing where it comes from because like if i've got a pretty funny premise and I'm on stage and I'm, you know, and the premise is funny enough, all of a sudden things get delivered out of nowhere. Yeah.

A punchline happens. I'm like, thank you. Like, I know it comes from me, but it didn't come from me three hours ago. It was delivered on stage. Right. Like a miracle. What's funny, I know, but i have it in my living room

oh good oh that's honestly it's the same inspiration inspiration whether i got it because the immediate pressure of these faces and souls that need it that's the tightrope walk see i would argue no you've assigned me for being too controlled or controlling. And it's like, I can't go up on stage and see what happens. I'd rather do it. I guess it's less risk, but I'm still going to do the joke and have it bomb. And it's even more embarrassing because I planned it. Yeah, you can be harder on yourself about it. Here's another withering thing that you've said to me that you noticed that I couldn't believe you noticed.

One night on stage, you go, hey, I see you grabbing your love handles. I didn't even know I was doing it. Yeah, well, that was helpful. That told me a lot about you. That sort of broke down a great wall between us. But I'm interested in your, because I don't, like you are openly, you have an eating disorder sort of that's ongoing. Have you gone to 12-step program? I have tried that, but I'm not, you can't look like me and go to an eating disorder recovery thing.

It's just like smoking weed and going to NA or something? No, it's just like most of the people in there have overeating issues. But I am mildly anorexic. Meaning you will undereat. No, meaning that I have bizarro food issues around gaining weight. You're against it. Totally. You have a scale? I do, but like, I'm okay with this stuff now.

Like I have been okay. I had to do a lot of work on it, but it is like, if I get above a certain level of discomfort physically, like I really become totally diminished. And like, I feel like zero self-worth, zero confidence. If you're over 180. 85-ish, 86-ish.

I think, I mean, I've gotten heavy, but I can't handle it. And I've spent a lot of time as I get older just being like, dude, just enjoy yourself. What do you care if you're chubby or whatever? And I try to sit in that for a minute and I just can't do it. And now I'm vegan, like, you know, for the last few months, which I don't know if it's affecting my weight, but I feel better about what I'm eating.

But that food stuff is so deep and it's so dug into me. From your mom, right? Yeah. She had an eating disorder? She still, you know, know she just that was her life was was you know maintaining a weight of like 119 or 116. so i was brought up you know as a chunky kid as they say you know husky pants and by this mother who was terrified like i used to do a joke that joke about uh like i i think that for the first nine years of my life my mother just

saw me as her fat and that if she just stopped eating maybe i i hope you didn't write it ahead of time i hope you just thought of it on stage i think i must have to god of course they did you didn't just i maybe that's that's structured like a joke but it's not a laugher you know like it's just a sad piece of information in a way it gets a jarring laugh it doesn't know that's funny i mean that could get a laugh yeah but like it's still it's plagues me still you know it like i think about food constantly and about what to eat how to eat you know what i shouldn't eat how much shame i have it's it's it's deeper than drugs and it affects oh that's interesting yeah well i guess it's because you have it's you

can't avoid it it's the same kind of thing you know i think it all sprouts from that well that you know my mother felt so like insecure and weird that she made her entire life about you know managing her weight you know and she got down to below 100 at different times she was definitely clinically you know fucked up with it when i was growing up. And, you know, it was, uh, it, it affected everything. The two of them, the, the, the, you know, the selfishness involved in both my parents, but that eating disorder really, really got me. Like, I remember I went away to college my freshman year and I, I got as skinny as ever. God, I was down in the 160s and i looked terrible but i was i just wanted my mom to be proud was she nah not really she said i looked weird there was no winning right you know what i mean it was always there it was always a little stick yeah mom but i think

that's where i got the sense of humor too it was always a little stick i would think you think of yourself as a combination of your parents yeah like uh this one for sure like just don't you yes but i still try to think like well not that well no i think that you can have a little control over that i can't i do think that you can make choices in your life you know and also there's something you know proactive about isolating the bad things that you got from them and trying to sort of cognitively deal with those and embrace the things, you know, find the things that you got from them that are good. I think that's a great, you know, recovery thing. Not necessarily recovery in the terms of 12 steps or anything, but in terms of psychological recovery to accept

the parts of your parents that you know kind of made you who you are in a good way you know and then deal with the other ones in a different way like you know i can make different choices than to honor that monster yeah right but it's also it's kind of enjoyable to indulge it every once in a while yeah just gotta keep it on a leash right watching you it's like oh mark's indulging himself tonight like it's like oh mark's being like petty mark food yeah like cigars nastiness pervy looks yeah your bachelor party is like we're just gonna be nasty yeah we're just gonna say nasty cutting shit about people we don't need strippers yeah yeah i know i'm not a big

stripper guy i never have been we'll just bring yeah yeah i know i'm not a big stripper guy i never have been we'll just bring a lot we're gonna bring up a pile of photos and we're just gonna shit on people yeah i've never been like a big stripper guy a big lingerie guy i didn't even understand lingerie i was thinking about the other day well no i mean either you're into it or you're not it's not for the woman you know i remember buying a wife you know lingerie and you know i was like enjoy that and i didn't realize that it was for you yeah you know it's i don't i don't need that you know it's supposed to be sexy it's gift wrapping which you're probably stupid i don't need gift wrapping yeah i have been a little bit old

markish well not even again i i don't if controlled it's funny yeah i mean your act is that your act is that plus the older you get more empathetic and more yeah more yeah uh just simpler like the premises are simplified yeah i don't i'm not trying to i don't swag too many people you know if i do it's got to be there's got to be a pretty a bigger reason than it being just personal. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, I get why they sponsored the show because all we talk about is improving mental health. You know about it. You know I've been in therapy 20 years.

Talk therapy, hugely helpful. It will just give you someone to bounce your life off of and they'll show you how to interrogate yourself of like what do i mean what do i feel what do i it's it's better than a friend that's all i can tell you if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find more balance with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash N-E-A-L today

to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot C-O-M slash N-E-A-L. Betterhelp.com slash Neil. I'm not gonna say it againl betterhelp.com slash neil i'm not gonna say it again betterhelp.com slash neil i said it again hi you know how people like if you're uh dating them will want to do stuff i personally don't like doing stuff you know that other people do i do occasionally like to go to an event and you got to get tickets for it. And it's stressful because you don't know where to go. You don't know what's legit.

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what, you'd coke with your drug? Yeah, I like the coke and the drinking and the pot. How did it make you feel? Did it make you feel like the way, the sort of stereotypical ways? I don't know, man. I just knew that like, you know, like if I really think about like what I was living on the Lower East Side, you know, during like the Luna Lounge days. This is the early 90s, early mid 90s.

Yeah. Yeah, because Luna was like on a Monday or something. But I just like, I remember like, you know, going to the Coke dealers and just getting a gram, you know, when it was still light out. How much is that? It was like a hundred bucks. Right, but how much? It's a gram of Coke. I don't know.

I've never, I've only seen it six times. It doesn't seem like a lot. It's maybe like sort of. Like in the little rubber band. Like a tablespoon. Okay. No, it's like a, like a, like it's like a, what do you call it? A heavy tablespoon-ish.

Not a ton. That might even be more than it. Yeah. I wish they did it a tablespoon. They should. And a teaspoon. You can. It'd be easier.

Yeah. Maybe it's sort of like, it's like four, it's maybe like two or three sugar packets. Okay. But I just remember getting it and then going to the bar at Avenue B and 7th and just getting a pint of bass after doing a few rails at his house

and just being like, this is the best. It wasn't even like, where are we going? There was just possibility. There was like my brain, it had a sort of a Ritalin effect. I was jacked,

but I was like, you know, like sort of a ritalin effect i was jacked but i was like you know like everything's okay you know yeah but then it just gets bad you can't hold on to that and you know and you don't really know how you're acting you don't really know you know how you're coming on you probably don't care either right i think i i kind of care how you're i just thought i was like exciting and it was like it gave like to what, just reacting to what you said earlier, like, I don't know that I am fundamentally angry. I don't think that's the deepest layer of me. I think I'm oversensitive and, you know, weirdly terrified of, of failure in all ways, including socially. Uh, and I think the anger thing happened after my first heartbreak and, you know, and I

just kind of learned how to wear that. But I think ultimately I'm a hypersensitive person that has, I'm terrified of, uh, of being embarrassed and, and, and, but it happens a lot. I think that was another thing I got from my mother. She was embarrassing my mother, the way she'd order at restaurants, the way she'd, at restaurants the way she you know sexualized everything so so i don't i i think the anger came from from it was after but but i think the coke gave me what i felt was some sort of genuine confidence and i and i think that what was annoying about me even with you and those comments was that was some sort of insecure swagger well that's what i always the thing i noticed is like, dude, you're fucking really astute.

Yeah. Just stop turning it on people that like you. Yeah. Just turn it on. Preemptive, man. No, I know, but it's like, what? I don't, I'm fucking hands up. Like, I like you.

I know. Well, that was, I guess, when you have uh bad boundaries you know the way you establish them is not uh is not great right it's you shank you gotta shank it's yeah yeah psychological uh prison logic yeah so it came from fear i just feel like i just didn't have a sense of self for you know until fairly recently and so what's funny is it's like you but you haven't really changed that much i know i know like it's weird you know when i at some point like a decade ago or so i was watching my old stuff thinking like i can't watch it and i'm like oh that's me yeah like what what am i thinking what's going on up here to where like i don't even know

who that guy is yeah like i know that guy yeah the same guy i'm still embarrassed but it's like and it's true i was less embarrassed though it was helpful it's not as embarrassing as you think totally not i'm like i was just trying jokes they weren't bad yeah so the thing i think about is your age and your the distribution of parental attributes yeah are you optimistic about relationships i don't know man you're part in them i would say i i ask obviously because i'm i have my own thoughts well i think like in doing the homework for this show in terms of blocks that you know whatever they are after a certain point you know you you negotiate with yourself as much as you can around you know what is possible for yourself in terms of these things,

right? Like, it's like in the program, you know, the character defects, like I always used to say, like, well, you know, that's an option. You can remove them, ask for them to be removed. It's up to you. You know, you can hold on to them. I mean, there's a liability to that, but as long as you're not drinking, whatever. But like the idea of, you know, victim disposition or ongoing therapy forever, that at some point you got to realize, like, it's like that joke I used to do it when you get older and you go to therapy. It's like, look, I realize you just you can be you can be straight with the therapist. Like there are some things we're just not going to be able to unfuck. But if we can deal with the things that I think, you know, I can approach now. And I think there's a truth to

that. So I don't know about relationships. I don't know what I expect anymore. You know, I can approach now. And I think there's a truth to that. So I don't know about relationships. I don't know what I expect anymore. You know, having, you know, lost somebody, you know, that was close to me and that was going pretty well. But, you know, obviously even then, you know, I thought I had hope there. But then again, I don't know what I'm looking for. What is it? Like, I'm not going to have kids. I'm not going to get married again. It's clearly, you know, there is, I have an emotional liability. I know I can feel that there is something to opening your heart and, and, you know, and connecting with another person in that way and talking about it and really letting your guard down, you know, and, and possibly, you know, crying for a while and, and, and sharing that with

somebody else. I can see how that, you how that might feel good for a day or two. Right? I mean, and I don't think anybody lives in that. I think it's one of those weird baptisms of intimacy where you kind of lay it out and you open up and you have that as a foundation for your thing. Here's my document. Here's my statement.

Here's like the- Here's my soul. Here's my emotional. Yeah. I don't know. I've grown to sort of accept that I might be a little, I don't know if it's paralyzed, but I don't know that I have the proper expectations

out of relationships. And then I start to realize like, well, what is normal? What isn't? We kind of talked about this the other night in relation to sex or whatever, is that it's sort of up to you after a certain point. I mean, there are these status quo stuff about what's expected. Oh, it's about kids,

you know, and what other people are doing. But, you know, as you get older, you're like, that didn't look great. You know, and then you sort of have to reframe sort of like, well, maybe I wasn't totally wrong and I can accept what I'm not getting by the decisions I'm making. wrong and I can accept what I'm not getting by the decisions I'm making. And if I can live with that, you know, fuck it. Right. Am I satisfied or like, it's the same with God. Like these people are like, I'm just looking for something. Like I never was looking for that. For a God. Yeah. Whatever that drives people to have this sort of like, I just, you know, I'm like, you know. As a person, you can't come to many conclusions in a vacuum yeah you get everything is conditioning and like here's the status quo here's the norm the norm the norm the norm the norm totally you

can't fucking think straight no so i've never even heard someone say i wasn't looking for god i didn't know you were allowed to not be looking for god yeah i just i think it's a it's like i understand it like i understand it from the program I understand the idea of powerlessness I understand you know and I can sort of frame that in a way where I realize that you know most things almost everything is out of my control I can I can get that without being terrified you know no I think the the idea is that like when you realize like hey I'm powerless in almost everything that that's terrifying and you know you might as well put but you know what else terrifying i'm powerful well yeah but in certain aspects yeah that breaks down but i'm just saying that like that's the gap that's the god-shaped hole and you know i you know and you

know people have come at me with that thing and because i have a certain amount of vulnerability when you see past the anger or the sadness or whatever but like i'm okay if i keep eating and distract myself you know maybe maybe it'll all bite me in the ass but i i don't know really what to expect out of relationships i'm in one now that is sort of evolved into something kind of sweet and i've grown to really love this person and i get a kick out of her you know but i i always feel that they're kind of doomed she is younger than me by a lot and you know that like who isn't right that's true i mean i mean that's what you get to it's like it is and i never noticed everyone's younger than me yeah i i have you're like i'm 10 years younger than you so what i'm saying is but i've always had the thing every woman i've ever dated is older than me even if they're

younger than me yeah in an emotional uh arena yeah women are like the knowledgeable ones yeah and they even if they haven't had a lot of relationships they've had a lot of emotional connections people so i always assume even if a girl's younger than me like the joke i never did but like i could fuck a 25 year old and be like, you're, you shouldn't be doing this to me, lady. Like, like you're going to get in a lot of trouble for this. Like I, cause they're all, they're going to get emotionally attached. Yeah. I, I think I, I don't, I didn't really know that as much as I do now.

Like that there is sort of like, you know, because, you know, I've been a compulsive sex person, you know you know what i mean it's like it's sort of what i grew up thinking you were supposed to do yeah my dad was sort of a philandering fuck and you know when i was coming up in the world i mean it was all sort of like weirdly uh it wasn't porn but it was you know the male the the roles the sexual roles were very defined and they were like porn adjacent they're porn adjacent but like the access to porn you know is is insane right just breaks brains yeah but but the idea that you know what you're working for is to fuck yeah you know that was there it's always been there you know it's like you go you know you want pussy right that's what you're doing and i was never that great at it took a long time high school was not was not successful sexually in high school and it took a long time for me to

get the hang of it and then when you can it's hard not to gorge you think you're supposed to of course but you have to have enough game to do it there are plenty of guys that want to gorge you can't so if you're sort of cursed but blessed with the ability to get laid yeah you have to reckon with the thing and and you just have to make decisions yeah like okay what am i what i need my own sort of ethics around this but the truth is it's like you know i i've you know my empathy it took a long time for my empathy to come around to realize that you know you know most women and i think a lot of men too, are not just out to fuck.

And it's always gonna be weird. And there's gonna be kind of emotional repercussions for somebody. Yeah, that runs contrary to the one day soul exchange. Oh yeah. Meaning you're like, I don't just wanna fuck. I wanna fuck and then have a one day soul exchange oh yeah meaning you're like i don't just want to fuck i want to fuck and then have a one day that's good well yeah but then you do that then you're really in trouble because if you if you do that like oh we did the soul thing and we did the fuck thing i think you

mean they're really in trouble i think you'll be fine yeah i just uh i wish on some level like i think that it's a major block that i have this thing that I think that I've become, I don't know if it's cynical or shut down or not. I don't believe that I'm going to let it go. And obviously- You don't believe you're going to let what go? I'm going to let my guard down that much or allow myself to have that soul exchange. Why not? Because I don't know, man.

You did with Lynn. I think it was coming. It was happening naturally. There was a lot in place there. But a lot of times I find myself with women who are sort of completely enamored with me. It's the joke I'm doing now. I'm not looking for younger women. I'll have, I'm an all, you know, I'll take all legal ages kind of guy.

It's whoever's most obsessed with me. Yeah. But not, it's not true all legal ages. You know, we got to get, you can't. Look, there's some caveats, caveats. Sure. Like the woman I'm with now is 34 and some women gasp at that. I'm like, really?

34? I mean. So 34 for a woman is like 45 for a guy. Well, it's weird because I do find that emotionally. I'm very comfortable with her and I don't know why. And I'm trying to figure it out. And it's not bad. But she's really a kind of no frills kind of person, just like a kind of a Midwestern straight shooter

and got a good heart. And I find myself relaxed emotionally around her and i and i think i am emotionally you know pretty well okay you don't have a god shaped hole yeah you don't necessarily have a relationships shaped hole what's the drive well you know it's just like i i just want like to feel better you know i just i i know peace of mind people go do you have what are your career goals right now i was like most of my goals now are emotional yeah most of my goals are like i just want to feel nice and good yeah and i want to learn how to like you truly enjoy stuff without being full of dread and panic and expectation and

codependency like i have like i'm a double winner kind of guy you know which is you know i'm equally codependent as i am you know addictive addicting addict yeah and you know in in i don't like i have to stop that shit codependency or yeah well that's the hard part about codependency is is i too am codependent and done a lot of work with it yeah and it's i i don't know the difference between a boundary and a wall yeah well i mean i think that's sort of me because like you have without knowing it you have so much invested in people that you might not even know that well and they all of a sudden have this amazing control over you whether you know it or

not whether they know it or not yeah and you know it's like it's weird and it can hurt a lot you know when when you know you don't have a proper boundary so working on that stuff is is like i try to do that but i also have a very active monster like you were saying that like there's this other part of me that's like you know a full grown you know monster you know like the petty guy or the petty guy the sort of like you know yeah petty guy pervy guy hungry guy you know what i mean so there's sort of like i have to reckon with who i really am you know in this body that's still occupied by you know you know sad pussy guy doormat guy and monster man you know so like like, I just have to, you know, get, I gotta get everybody.

Who's the doormat guy? Well, I mean, the doormat guy, the guy that proposed to a mentally ill person, you know, after, you know,

I, I had to sort of, you know, when we, when I broke up with her, I ended up in, you know, male,

all male Al-Anon meetings for, you know, months, just trying not to engage. Al-Anon meetings for months just trying not to engage. Al-Anon is a 12-step group around codependency. Codependency meaning you're addicted to people, and a lot of times they are addicts or mentally ill. Right. I have that because both of my parents— Did you get married to her?

No. You remember her. It was that one that everybody knew that she was a was a little weird oh i didn't know you got engaged well yeah i broke up with her then we you know for three months i was just alan onning and like not calling and then she found a fucking crack and and before i know it like i bought her a fucking ring and i'm gonna do it and she, I couldn't even understand who that guy was, but it's there because, and it's also the core to the success of my podcast is my immediate ability to enmesh with people and,

and, and feel their feels. You know what I mean? And it's also the core of what you're saying about my intuition. It's because I was wired by emotionally broke, you know, needy manipulative people that did not know how to be selfless did not know how to uh allow space emotionally for children did not know how to raise children or

be them you know or act appropriately right so they end up raising a uh very sensitive right a guy who doesn't have a sense of self meter it's of many different it can measure many different things like you come from that totally and i can measure anger i can measure power like immediately i know you have it because like sometimes you see me and you're like not even gonna like you'll you just register a vibe as i walk in the hallway you're like all right i'm like that too dude there's sometimes like I can see from, you know, from 50 feet. I can feel, I'm like, hmm.

Yeah. I got to ditch, I got to get out of this hallway. It's helpful when you do comedy too because like you can hear a room before you go on and you're like, back corner stage, right? That whatever's, that thing back there.

Yep. I'm going to fix it. I'm going to fix it. I'm going to fix it and'm gonna fix it i'm gonna fix it and also might be probably like hey and you go talk to the doorman are they are you keeping your eye on them exactly but not everyone by the way yeah we're right a lot of the time yeah that's the that's the crazy part is like we can you're sensitive to it and yeah and then what do you so i'm in a position where i mean recently things have happened

where like i've said to a woman i was like i think you're more into this than you're letting on and she denied it denied it denied it like what are you talking about and then two weeks later she was like i think you're right oh like which is gratifying but a sad story right but like so again i have to worry about my codependency you have to worry about your codependency so it makes every relationship like but also have to worry about the other side of it too of course you know which is you know kind of like not you know being sensitive to people's feelings objectifying people you know like there's that we have a very sensitive meter that is either on or off. But also like I just had this realization

in talking to you in that like just now where like that sensitivity feels like empathy, but I'm not sure that it is until you sort of kind of tweak it a little bit. Like I definitely mesh with people and I can feel them, but I'm not sure it's the same as empathy. You know, I'm not- Well, that's, I'm trying to think of an example.

The thing that made me think of it, there was a time you said something about my father and it was like, it was like, and it was like, Marin, it was shitty. Why take that knowledge? You're in the same boat and you're using it as a fucking knife. Yeah, you're just so sensitive. But you're right in that you sense it, you fucking immediately intuit it.

I can do it. We can do it all the time with almost everybody. But it's just a matter of do I use it as like I have that also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the guy one time said to me in program early on, like I was like nine minutes sober. And I was so excited that I told my wife that I was having an affair. Because the woman who got me sober, I had an affair affair with her and I ended up being with her for years. But, but I remember I,

I was so proud of myself for being honest. And, uh, some old guy, famous playwright, like he comes up to me and he's like, uh, you know, that's not being honest. He being using honesty as a weapon is not what that means. That is not what honesty means. Yeah, and you're like, what? Yeah, I'm like, what? Yeah. When did they decide that?

I'm pretty sure it is. I remember it and it's true. Yeah. But also you kind of frame it in comedy terms too. That's why I could never do roasts because I would do roast jokes and people would be like, wow and they'd people be like wow where'd that come from yeah like we're having fun here nope yeah yeah but that's the it's an

interesting thing of like having the sensitivity and i you had a joke about dying alone, that thing about the Caribbean woman. Oh, yeah. Let go. It's fucking hilarious. It's okay, baby. So that idea of are we going to die alone, preoccupied with ourselves? And by the way, Mark, based on that joke,

not the worst scenario you can imagine. No, like if you save your money and put a little, if you have enough for somebody to take care of you, it's almost like a gift. I wish my father would let us put someone in the house so his poor wife could have some time. Yeah, I don't know about all that, but it's creeping up pretty quickly. And I try not to be too terrified about it all. The terror would be of what's after? No, just about, like, I think of, let's think about the other day, the moment of death and after, like, the idea of negation.

You know, it's a weird thing to take on that you enter the timeless, you know. We know so many people have died now. Yeah. I did ayahuasca and DMT in the last two years, and I haven't really shut the fuck up about it. But I've had some big experiences. That make you at peace with dying? Or make you think there's something more? Yeah, it makes me think like, oh, no, this is just like a, I'm like, this is just one

other thing. Right. This is just this vessel. That I'm experiencing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like as hacky and everything as it is, it's like, I would bet money. Yeah.

At this point, based on the experiences I've had. Okay. But that doesn't make it right for you. Yeah. No, but I'm just saying that. But it's's but at the same time it'd be nice to be well cared for and i think that if you the one good thing about saving money or hoping that you're in the position to have it you can maybe be well cared for yeah

what do you do you care if how do you picture it in terms of visitors i don't know if anybody really wants to visit me like i i I think that, like, over time, whether I'm nice Mark or not nice Mark or that I'm not, like, I'm intense and I don't get the feeling that people really want me around personally. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't get invited many places.

It's like, I'm just one of these guys, because of our sensitivity, you must be the same way. I don't know. That I can say or do one little thing that I thought was innocuous and it can destroy uh something a friendship or whatever you know but i don't know i don't know like i i like visitors i like to talk to people i don't know that i don't get the feeling what's funny is you're the the podcast is empathy it's an empathy station yeah it's like that that's the bulk of my social

life is meeting people and talking to them for an hour and then never talking to them again but being excited that they remember me at big events right but i would also argue that like a podcast a podcast of a certain type yeah is a very high form of communication. No, it's great. And you wouldn't have the conversation with the person at a dinner party. No, of course not. It's more like the soul exchange thing.

Yeah, it's weird. It's like a first date. That's where I'm getting it, thank God. But also, to what I just said, I don't know why I think those things. That's another block. Why do I assume I have this liability, this social weirdness? I mean, the truth is everyone's old now. They got lives. Some people are reemerging from raising kids, from having children and raising

them and stuff, but, but everyone's got a life after a certain point. And if you didn't lock in with them early on and you weren't part of their life now, then you're not going to, it's not going to happen now. Yeah. But also when, when Lynn died, when my partner passed away, I don't know what, I'm in and out of that word partner. When my girlfriend passed away, like dude, you know, everybody showed up, you know, for you or for me, you know, I mean, they, they called, they came called they came they sent food i mean so many people in our community yeah like that i i had i i wouldn't have ever imagined that because it was you know was in the you know was in the press but like everybody man like you know people who i you know

i wasn't even that close to you know like you know, you know, fucking, you know, I don't know Jay Leno. Yeah. He called me, you know, like, like just say, yeah, tough, tough thing. Yeah. But it was sweet, you know, and everybody like, so like, you know, I really felt cared for and I felt like we were a community and I like feeling that, but as I agree, it, it, well, it's, I think it's, we are, sometimes we aren't sometimes. Well, that's the thing. Now that there's a divided sense to it. And, and I, I think it's, we are sometimes, we aren't sometimes. Well, that's the thing now that there's a divided sense to it. And I probably add to that, but I think that after a certain point, you know, people become

bigger than just your peer, you know, when they have a social impact. And if you're a person that talks about cultural things, you know, you, you roll the dice, but now there does seem to be a division, But even ones in the sort of dubious camp, I don't have problems with them. Yeah. There's like two that I can't deal with. Right, but I would also argue that people would show up. Yeah, people would show up, but it's's also i think they're two different things yeah meaning like your partner your partner if that's what she was yeah uh your partner dies yeah

suddenly is like real shocking yeah and public and pronounced and like fuck um and it's very easy to put yourself in that position to put yourself as the you and you go fuck i gotta call him and if you're dying it's trickier huh because that then you that implies someone else is dying and they have to be comfortable enough to go see it's like i don't want to put myself in that i don't want i don't go see him yeah sounds fucked up yeah i've been that guy and maybe that's the karma people don't well yeah but and i feel like you'd accept the karma yeah but i also don't think whether people the question is am i cared for or not yeah or am i cared about yeah and you're i think you may value cared about more than cared for yeah i guess that makes sense you know yeah because i think that that's sort of

the way it goes i mean that's the way i was brought up you know like i wouldn't rely on my parents for anything any kind of emotional support ever yeah as a grown person or most of my life it just was it was always loaded and you know a stretch for them yeah it's funny that the i remember when i first started like dealing with other people at the houses or whatever when i saw people hey you need anything from the kitchen and i was like what because in my house was like get it yourself it is what they would say that literally that's what the direct quote would have been i'm sorry maybe i'll believe it maybe i won't that's how we talk to each other yeah yeah my parents were just bad at it and it was always

about them but you know it was just but yeah that's interesting cared for i don't believe it i don't believe that people care for me you know when i'm that's another sort of part of that intimacy thing is like when people are like you know you really mean a lot to me i believe this girl but i i don't generally believe it totally and i think i always think it was because like maybe it's my own self-image but it's like it's loaded man you know my parents were like you know like you know they they were supposed to care and i don't know by the way there's a lot of responsibility for you if someone cares about you. Yeah, that's when the codependency walks in. Yeah.

So you have to decide like, look, if I even take a step toward you, it's fucking full on. It could be crazy. But, you know, I'm sort of managing that right now. Okay. You know, I'm not losing my mind with that stuff. And I'm trying to sort of stay focused. It's easy for me to be nice to this woman and do nice things for her and make her life better. And that feels good.

Yeah. Yeah. And do you still do 12-step shit? Yeah. I mean, I talk to sober guys and, you know, I have sober conversations with people. And I haven't gone to a meeting in a long time and i never i couldn't do the zoom meetings you know it would be good to go but i think like like the last time we talked about it pre pre-pandemic like i think i need a different recovery you know i i don't feel like aa meetings

are fine you know and they keep it fresh and you know and i get and i get emotional about you know sobriety and hearing people's stories but like i think like something that deals with different stuff you know love addiction uh you know alan on stuff or uh like acoa adult children of lunatics uh you know that kind of stuff i think i i've i haven't really engaged it but i think this is also a big problem it's like with the opening the heart going to the meeting you know taking steps to to sort of resolve some of this stuff going on vacation doing things that bring me joy. It's sort of like, ah, you know, I just, I got to drive over. You know what I mean? It's like the anxiety stops me.

And it's not fear of those things. It's literally like, oh, I got to get up and where is this? Yeah, it's dread. By the way, it's never as bad as you think it's going to be. I just have to get there. It's not even bad. I have to travel tomorrow. And I'm like, you know, and I travel all all the time but like until i get on the plane but

you just go it's gonna and then you go it's like tsa's two and a half minutes yeah yeah i'll be and then you'll be at the place and then you're in the airport and then you get on and then fall right and then i freak out about the cats the other thing with the cats like yeah that's another block is like you know i almost didn't sell my old house because i had a cat that lived outside and i didn't know what he would do you couldn't just fucking scoop him and bring him yeah he's not an indoor cat but you could he could be from glendale to maybe but he eagle rock or whatever i ended up he ended up disappearing but it was just like that's typical yeah that's how weird i am with that stuff well that's codependency totally codependence with i'm

freaking out about you don't know what i put these cat sitters through put my girlfriend through with nuts were you the caretaker for your parents no they're alive right no no but i mean as a kid not really i guess it's just the the chaos of the it's just a detachment it was just the the lack of emotional decision making why does the codependency come from if you weren't oh well my mother yeah my mother you were her manager i wasn't her manager but i think with both of them when you have to react to them emotionally where they weird out or they yell or they do something shitty and then they're like come in five minutes later and apologize or they don't make decisions like it was just this interface with this inconsistency

that i constantly have to sort of manage and adapt to you know yeah it's funny because most of the time it's violence that's the thing that like my dad was pretty explosive because yeah but like he wasn't beating me up but he was scary yeah so yeah you get real good at and unpredictable yeah at managing and then it's preemptive and it's i it's a joke i've never been able to do which is i leave most interactions going did i hurt their feelings or do they hurt my feelings like it you know what i mean like at some point i i like i think it has something to do with doing comedy like i had to figure out a way of self-ownership to i was always sort of

what's precocious and and you know out in front of it and you know wanting attention and stuff and i think that i think my dad was jealous of me early forever and that he had to win something because i had something he didn't have i can't even comedy or just charisma or a good brain just like just something yeah and my mother i think also had weird feelings of being threatened by me and you know i think that me being you know me maturing as a comic had something to do with me being able to be like fuck them fuck both of them seriously i i don't i don't really i don't see them as parents they're these people i grew up with had problems you know i i i have a relationship with both of them it's fine but fuck them i don't know them anything thank god i got money if i can help that way good but oddly i'm going to see my

mother tomorrow it's going to be terrible. She's okay. But like after an hour, what the fuck you do? For three days, I'm down there. So I don't stay with her. I'm going to go and my brother's down there. But it's like I do what the Menchie thing to do is. Right.

And it's not terrible. It's okay. And if it makes them happy, fine. It's like candy striping. Like going and hanging out with old people. It's hard. You know, it's sad and it's weird. And it's been revealing in a way.

It's hard. I think it's a natural course of things. You ever think about how, what you would have been like had you been born when they were born? Oh boy. Like the decisions you would have made in the 30s yeah because like my parents born in 30 and 33 it's like yeah you just get married and you go to law school and it's like yeah you don't even ask yourself once and hey am i gonna do what hey do i want this

was not the way it worked or am i gonna going to have any talent for this? That's how powerful the status quo was. Yeah, the status quo. And then you ended up, it's just everybody making bad, reacting to something. How do they know what to do? It's like, just overreact better. That's all like, that's like human progress.

I speak to all this in the act. I've always spoken about it. It's like, you know, that's the that's like uh human progress i speak to all this on you know in the act i've always spoken about it it's like you know that's the thing it's like uh i've done different versions of it about spending time with my mother like i can't i didn't i it was about buying a house with an extra room in case you wanted to come out and then she came out once i'm like she's got to go i can't have her here seal that room off yeah well i mean but it's just sort of like you after you know an hour you have the big you have the same fucking conversation where it always ends with, but you didn't do the best you can. We just admit it.

You didn't do the best you can. Yeah. Did they admit it yet? Sure. Did they? She admits it, yeah. She said, well, I didn't know what I was doing. She said some awful things, my mother.

Like that are so great. Like the two that really stand out and these as a grown-up she goes you know mark if you were if you were fat i don't know if i'd know how if i could love you that one yeah and then like the better one was similar but it was not that long ago she's like just kind of being candid and like you know when you were a baby i don't think I knew how to love you. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, well, that's helpful. Yeah.

Okay. That fills in a lot. Yeah. There's the piece. Yeah. But she also used me as her best friend because my dad was like out fucking everything that moved and being a doctor. And my mom just sort of like, you're the thing. So I've got that thing. But I didn turn out to be a like a mama's boy

but i you know i did get her emotional trip her sarcasm her eating disorder her you know emotional sort of like um inabilities like i got all that because you know she attached herself to me what all right so you don't believe in a god yeah i don't think about it too much should i well what are you thinking about like i'm thinking about things i gotta do i'm thinking about things i gotta eat you know i'm thinking about like i'm reading books about culture and about you know the world i live in i'm thinking about birds i like to sit on my porch you know i do feel a sort of peace with with nature and stuff and I feel better about that stuff, not eating them. I'm hearing you talk, and I'm like, we're in a similar swamp.

I think the thing, looking at you, I wish I was more accepting of how niche I am. You know what I mean? I wish I was more like just like i like when people go like i love my birds and i love that i don't even think about god like but i'm like i should be it's all these shoulds i don't do that i do that with comedy more than i do i still do that with show business which annoys me it really annoys me yeah that like because like i've done okay i've done well um but like there's some part of my ego that doesn't feel like it's getting you know the respect i deserve you know like i want a um an award and i still have that weird resentful thing that that other people make

me feel i let them i let their success make me feel small. Whereas when I do it with my producer, he's like, dude, you won. I mean, what do you want? I've got my audience and I'm fine. But there's always sort of this other tier that I'm just not. Well, you said something interesting one time, which was I asked you about Louis

and you were like, Louis' level of fame. It might have even been before his yeah stuff but like you were like i've come to think i don't think i could have handled it or been it wouldn't have been right for you no i don't think i could have i i mean oddly i think now in terms of my comfort myself i i could handle whatever comes but i don't think i was destined for that like right now like i'm as funny as i'm going to be and i've got the audience i have and you know and i'm out there you know i don't know what makes somebody bigger i don't know if it's just the magic of dave becky and mike berkowitz that delivers somebody to arenas i don't know that i'd want to do an arena but i could certainly handle i think a larger fan base but it's just not my destiny i

think i'm too specific i'm in the same boat and it's like there's a lot of things that aren't relatable about us right yeah except to like-minded people or people that live our lives yeah there's a lot we can't speak to that grown-ups and there's like an essential thing like we have sharp cheek but just you know what i mean like just like we don't fit into the frame yeah like it's just like it's just physiognomy where it's like uh he seems not quite good on camera yeah like he just seems like a little off lb or something like it like i and it's it's these things where you go okay this isn this is an interesting. Nothing I can do about it. Right.

And I had said this to Hasan Minhaj, which was like, what are the odds that you'd beat this existence if you spun a wheel? In 8 million lives, how many people are better doing, how many people? What are we, 800? A couple thousand people on earth better at what more people in wheelchairs than great comics right no i get it okay so this is a question i always ask people you may find uh aggravating biopic a mark marabai who plays you what's the arc you can be a self-congratulatory i just don't i don't know actors i don't know the spectrum of actors of young actors it's shy a la bouffe let's go shy well he'd have to tone it down a little bit but i think he could do it a little bit what's the arc

what would i like yeah what's the what's What would I like? Yeah, what was this? I think there's something about whatever was going on at the comedy store in the 80s with Kennison and the drugs and stuff. Because I recently put on Instagram these two pictures. There's a picture of me at the store with Sam lit. I'm out of my mind on drugs with my arm around him. And he's like, eh. There's a little polaroid did

you have an actual relationship with no i wasn't on the inner circle but i was certainly a drug buddy for a while okay because i lived in crest hill and that's where i was like he'd just go up there he used it as a party house right and i was the guy that he'd give money to to get things set up i mean i was yeah yeah but never the inner circle and you know but but there's a picture of me and him and then i put that next to the picture of me and obama in my garage and i'm like that that arc is pretty good yeah what is it what's the story what's the arc though you you have a want then you get it i don't know that that's it i think what happens is you know i'm running on this sort of like angry insecure swagger and i'm you know and i'm busting through and i think i'm getting somewhere but ultimately

no one can quite get a handle on me and you kind of know you're not breaking through like it's not just like i know that like that i'm not myself yeah the tone isn't quite right yeah exactly but everyone's sort of like oh you're the cranky guy i'm like i don't i this is who i am it's not a character like i have no control over it that was the way and you don't even believe you're the cranky guy no of course not i'm like the i'm just me man i'm telling the truth here yeah so the arc is like how much you know just what it takes to humble that fucker and what is it it was just a process of sort of failure of not, you know, of not,

of, of having, you know, people knowing who I am fighting to get known, but never building an audience. And then ultimately, you know, ending up,

you know, having to sober up, ending up having to give up on life a first time that, but then meeting beautiful woman, then having to get sober and then ruining that relationship. And then sort of like the comedy opportunities kept coming but no nothing happens i'm scrambling to make a living i do air america i do a fucking radio show you think that was like my dream i mean it ultimately ended up you know

teaching me how to talk on these mics but that was a that was a default dude i had nothing going on and they had a lot of money that they were throwing away to get people to do this. It wasn't like, this is my passion. It was like, I don't think I have a choice. You know, I just got married. I'm living in LA. I got nothing on the table. These deals didn't go anywhere. So anyways, the humbling of that second divorce. What's especially humbling about that? She just left and, you know, and she, she should have, you know, I was a dry drunk, you know, emotionally abusive fuck. And, you know, I didn't know how to be in a relationship.

I was totally afraid she was going to leave me. She was stunning. And, you know, and I believe I loved her, but I was just horrible. I was possessive and crazy and I was trying to be good, but like, and she got out and I'd never had that happen for me, to me. You know, I just, that was just devastating because she got Al-Anon'd up. I think she got, you know, involved with somebody more emotionally supportive and proper and she left and it was for good. And it was like, it was devastating. It was just mind numbing and heartbreaking. And it was the finally thing like, oh, it was devastating. It was just mind numbing and heartbreaking. And it was the finally thing like, oh, it's me.

Well, I don't know if I, I, I quite realized I was still fighting to get it back. And, but that sent me spiraling. I mean, then she, you know, kind of really hired a lawyer to destroy me. And I didn't understand how she deserved the house. You know, I bought the house. We weren't, you know what I mean? And I ended up, you lose. You always lose.

You learn a lot of lessons. And I get it all now. But no, at the time, I didn't know it was me. I was trying to be better. But then I almost went broke, and she just, yeah. And out of that came the podcast. And then. The podcast is like a it's like a rock bottom totally it's like a rock bottom that ended up being like there's nowhere else to go it was i was looking down the barrel of you know a life as a as a hustling B room headliner or a real, a real barrel gun, you know?

And I just started, you know, talking on that, you know, then, you know, it all came, you know, I'd gone back to air America to do a streaming video show with the agreement that they would give me enough money up front to stop the hemorrhaging of the divorce. And, you know, I got more skills and it just, it timed out right. So then there was that and that starts and then like you know then you know then there's the next humbling of you know lynn dying so like you know which was what was the humbling of that meaning like there's it's not a career one what's the what was just like you know like i don't know like i don't look at

it as punishment but you know mishna leaving me was like, like, I, I think I might've been a little borderline personality, you know? You know, uh, like there was, it was very black and white thinking. It was, I was very sort of like, why me? How can this, you know, like, what do I, how do I, you know? And it was just, it, it just destroyed me for a long time. And so then when Lynn died, it was a whole different thing. That's a different kind of leaving. And it's like, I'm older and I know we're fragile and I know I've seen people die, but you don't expect that.

I really didn't expect my wife to, when I came home, sit me down and go like, I want a trial separation. I never saw her again, really. And I certainly didn't expectn to get sick and die so it's just the depth of heartbreak of those two different types i mean fuck dude so i don't know what the third act is but but i'm who were you before lynn died and who were you after like in terms of what was well i thought well well i thought well well i thought like you know it worked out you know the career worked out i met this woman you know well that's what's funny from the outside and i was like fuck he had it yeah right like this is good

i'm gonna be good for the rest of it yeah and we we have respect for each other yeah the work and you know we can work together even and you know conversationally and all this stuff you know she was you know a grown-ass woman yeah i. You know, she was, you know, a grown ass woman. Yeah. I had hope for the future and was excited about the possibilities and proud to be with her. And then, you know, you know, so you grieve like whatever the possibility. So who am I after? I don't know.

I'm, I'm not, I'm not great. I, you know, I, I'm, I'm pretty i i don't feel like i'm actively cynical but i've certainly might still be numb somehow yeah because you don't seem pessimistic you don't seem i didn't ask why you know i you know i didn't see it as personal i didn't you know there was no why me i was very clear on that like i didn't want to as personal. There was no why me. I was very clear on that. I didn't want to be seen as the victim, which might be bad in getting back to love. No, I don't think it's bad.

I don't think that's bad. She was the victim, and I felt terrible about that. I was leveled, but it has something to do with the love for, and what was it? That I'm comfortable with people loving, not, like-

Caring about you, but not caring for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she cared for you and cared. Oh, yeah, yeah. But I'm just saying in the aftermath, I kind of, I definitely couldn't keep it together and I was happy to be supportive, but I just wanted to be clear that like, there was no reason it happened cosmically. You know, I was not angry at God because I have enough practical

sense of death after losing, you know, several of our peers and, you know, and knowing that, you know, it's all sort of a gift somehow or luck. But I certainly didn't see it coming. And that was what made it just terrible. It was just a similar feeling of the type of loneliness and the type of pain of being that out of control. She died. I mean, and it was during the COVID. It was just terrible. But I was all, it was just terrible,

but I don't know who I am now, but I'm, I'd like to say that I have a deeper appreciation of, of life, uh, in a lot of ways and an acceptance of death in a lot of ways. Yeah. I, it's a weird compliment, but you, you, and an acceptance of death in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's a weird compliment, but you handled it well. You grieved well.

You didn't seem to make any unforced errors about the interpretation of it or what it meant. Because it doesn't always mean anything. No, I really had to manage my brain about that. I had a lot of things to do. I didn't know her family, you know, and I had all her stuff and I had the keys to the new place she had just rented and nobody was traveling. There was a lot of responsibilities that had to be dealt with to be in touch with people and to get things places and to you know her car sat in front of my house for weeks you know and uh you know her clothes and like it was there's a lot of practical stuff that had to be dealt with my brother came out and then i and then i tried to get out of town and you know tried to

have some sort of i tried to keep myself in her eyes you you know, in her gaze, you know, because I think I was probably like, I was at my best, you know, in terms of, you know, the way she saw me, you know, and what she saw in me was really the best of me. So I tried to keep hold of that, but I think it might be slipping. But that's all right. I don't know. I don't know if that's true man i mean i don't know what it's like inside you but yeah it's not it's there's also something to be

said for my sister's husband died and she said i didn't know if i would be able to care for somebody and i could and that's what I thought when you were saying about like doing all this stuff oh yeah well that's where the codependency comes in handy no I mean like you know you want to help and it was genuine and I think I can care for people probably more now you know because I think the one thing you left with is like did I do the you know the short time that we were able to be together you know was I think the one thing you left with is like did i do the you know the short time that we were able to be together you know was i really the best that i could have been you know so like that if anything it's not a regret thing but you know she just you know got sick and i

thought it was the flu and you know that week you know i was sort of like oh my god when is she gonna get better you know like what is it and then like she gets sick and died like you kind of feel shitty like all right i'll bring you some cereal you know oh yeah yeah right but that's how we are with people get sick you know so like there's that little stuff so like i don't know it made life very clear and it also you know made me more attentive i think of of of my myself and and others and but it's like devastating yeah we'll see what happens it's like it's some here here's some more here's a little something for your empathy engine that's right like my producer said something along the lines of like well that's it you've got your stripes somehow yeah like nothing is going to be this bad yeah again i have a theory that like by the time

life is over you will have been every person yeah like oh now i'm the fucking widow widower now i'm the cheater now i'm the sure sure that's like you know the the spectrum of the of the flaws how does this wrap up i mean that's the great question isn't it It wants to have it real, my man All you have to do is open, open up your hand, my man