Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Patton Oswalt

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Neal Brennan interviews Patton Oswalt (Longtime standup crusher, 'Ratatouille' & a bunch of other stuff) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 2:55 Phantom Gallery of Non-Sellouts  9:01 Patton’s Emotional Makeup 11:56 Parenting  14:32 Sponsor: Mando 17:39 Grief & Losing Michelle McNamara   28:30 Meeting & Marrying Meredith Salinger  32:11 True Crime Industry 37:15 How Patton Has Changed  40:44 Wanting to Be Loved  44:14 Biggest Personal Issues ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/... ---------------------------------------------------------- Sponsors: https://www.shopmando.com promo code NEAL for $5 your Mando starter pack Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

guys it's the blocks podcast my guest today has a new tour called the effervescent tour uh he's been a crusher for we'll go 25 30 years yeah that's cool um yeah um don't agree with it uh and um he was in uh ratatouille get to your stations let's go go go pure poetry did great in that he's in all kinds of stuff. He's a great comedian. You've just, you've done a lot of shit. I love that I did great in something. Hey, he did that.

You did great in... A lot of people don't do that well in Ratatouille. I did pretty good in it, yeah. A lot of people step up to Ratatouille and fail. A lot of comedians are in, they will do their time in Ratatouille and it doesn't work. Yeah. I just, I don't know what it was. You got your shot.

Yeah, man. When Ratatouille called you over to... Ratatouille, and Ratatouille and it doesn't work. Yeah. I just, I don't know what it was. You got your shot. Yeah, man. When Ratatouille called you over. Ratatouille. And Ratatouille comes for every comedian. Yes. But I did really good in it. You did great in Ratatouille. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's just done a bunch of shit and he's great and he's interesting. And his name is Patton Oswalt. Big round of applause. Fantastic. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. It's so good to see you.

Hi. Now, I look at you and- Why? Well, I have no choice. That's true. We are sitting across from each other. How did this all turn out, do you think? You know what?

I don't know yet. Still? You still don't know? I still don't know because you could talk to a certain person when they're at a career peak and literally two years later, they can be suddenly struggling and sort of in the wilderness for a while if you ask brendan frazier hey how did it turn out while he's doing yeah all these massive movies he's like it's awesome whoa baby and then you get him during the last 20 years he's like i'm kind of lost right now and then so do you pay attention to it?

Do you ever take stock or do you just go, when are you finally getting? Yes, and I wish I didn't. I wish I wasn't as aware of the peaks and valleys. I like show business. I read a lot of showbiz biographies, so a lot of times I'll try to transpose. However it is, I'm feeling on someone else's story and then you have to stop errol flynn yes uh no god no i know i'm not in tahiti marrying 11 year olds is that what he did he was one of the worst human beings on the planet oh my god oh my god um we mean what a coincidence no of course that's always how it is. Oh, okay.

Yeah, you can't put your, because whatever your thing is going to be, you're in the middle of it right now. You're not looking back. Don't live your life like you're sitting and it's all been cataloged and you're looking back on it. Show up every day and try to live each day. By the way, this is advice that I very rarely take and I'm just now trying to implement. But try to live each day.

It's up to other people to sort out your life and go through all of it later. Let's do some blocks. Well, this is interesting. The Phantom Gallery of Non-Sellouts. I would like to start with Phantom Gallery of Non-Sellouts. I think I know what you're going to say, and I'm interested. This is when you're young and you're struggling, and I think even more so because of the scene I came out of,

the whole alt scene, and we were all about, I'm not doing this, I'm not selling out, I'm never going to do a sitcom, never going to blah, blah, blah. Well, that's people. While you were talking, I remember you were on The King of Queens for like seven years. Well, I hope everyone saves room for dessert. I was listening to Beck last night.

I got crazy and I put chocolate chips in my macaroons. Exactly. It was on a sitcom after I had said. You were in the Diablo Cody movie. You were great in that. Are you fucking kidding? Yeah, but you have all this. I think a lot of times when you're starting out and I'm actually glad that there's a new

the wave that's coming up is way more realistic about what a long career in show business looks like. You have this because you're you haven't really formed who you are. It's way easier to define who you are by what you hate because there's no risk in hating shit. And you haven't done anything. Yeah, it's bullshit. And also you say that because secretly I think that you're terrified

that no one is buying what I want to sell. Yeah. But you keep that weird, there's that weird gallery in your head. And sometimes it's versions of people that have since matured, but you're performing for an earlier version of them when you guys were both broke and you were going to stay pure and you were going to stay on the edge. And then opportunities come along that you feel like because you're only judging yourself by that first standard, you're constantly second guessing what you're doing. But in the long run i'm in this because i want to work i want to be doing things and i want to be doing

film tv writing now comic books now hosting a game show the one percent club so i can keep my visibility up and keep doing stand-up yeah and to going. So, you know, there's always going to be that phantom gallery that's going to make you, oh, wait, I know. I mean, I'm sure that like Richard Dreyfuss, when he was doing, when he first signed up for Jaws, was like, think of everything that's going on in New Hollywood right now with Scorsese and Bob Rafelson. And I'm going to be, I'm shooting

a rubber, giant rubber shark movie up in Martha's Vineyard. What the hell is going, like, you don't know what the next deep art, where it will come from and what it can be unless you show up and make it that thing. But you're not going to do that if you're always going to be trying to please this phantom gallery who's in your gallery my gallery is the whole scene i came up with uh me david cross wow look at that gallery right yeah because i talked to cross about the karen colgar sanctimony that yes and the righteousness of that we were so fucking we were so we were all terrified we were terrified um that's that's the core of it we were all terrified of not looking cool and a lot of us chose cool over funny and as chris rock says cool is the opposite of funny and so it took me a long time to kind of get over

that and every now and then it still crops up but then i'm just like no you i i want to work yeah showed up to work this is ridiculous you but you seem to like king of queens you did in the night that when did you start that 95 or something 98 um which was kind of when the um alt scene was starting to fracture a little bit i mean a lot of the alt scene i thought was really great creative wise it just wasn't very good real-world-wise and practical-wise. The creativity was amazing. But then there was a lot of like – there was a hothouse mentality of I just perform in alt rooms. It's like, well, that's going to really limit your career.

And then once I got on King of Queens, the writing was fantastic. All the writers were nutballs, stoners doing weird, you know, slipping in weird little things. Kevin James is a fucking brilliant actor. He's up there in my, and this is just being a show business, Jackie Gleason was this huge guy that could seem really, really delicate. I forgot that you're a woman. How could I? You're always yapping. And then Danny DeVito is this tiny guy that can seem like a tidal wave.

And Kevin James is this perfect combination of both of them. His sense of balance and his sense of rhythm and timing is so... kind of doesn't match the way his body is. Yeah. So he can seem really small and delicate and then suddenly explode. And it's just, he's one of those like kind of once in a lifetime, like television actors. And I'm not saying television actors like, oh, he's just, no. Acting on TV in a four-camera sitcom is so hard to make it look natural. It is really hard. It is such a weird skill, and he just absolutely nailed it.

I have a huge surprise for you. You're pregnant. Yes. No. Thank God. Would you stop? In every movie I've seen him in, in Hitch. Yeah, yeah.

And then he made a movie called Becky, which is he played like this really scary villain. Well, that leaves little Becky. Where's Becky? Wait, wait. Like was brilliant in it. So he's always been one of those. Oh, wait a minute. I have to get out of this little sanctimonious hothouse and look and and see that that there's talent and genius everywhere just just because it happens to be in a sitcom that we arbitrarily decided is not art no there there are doing a good sitcom is really freaking hard to do and people have done it exactly um you what what do you what is your emotional makeup Because none of these are emotional.

And the thing I'm interested in you is, like, what's it like to be you? Are you just sort of, are you, are all these, like, hobbies a way to hide? Yeah, probably. I mean, there's, look, I came up in the, grew up in the 70s and 80s. So there was a lot of, you know, I had that shit hammered into me that men do this. So I'm still fighting that thing. I am – on the inside, yeah, I'm extreme. I'm in show business.

I'm clearly – I'm a raw nerve. I'm very emotional, I've chosen comedy. And so – which is even more vulnerable being a stand-up. So yeah, there is – I probably put – yeah, I've definitely built a callous around myself, a callous of cynicism and silliness to kind of breeze through life, if that makes sense. Yeah. Or at least to seem like I'm breezing through life. Yeah. It's like the nerd thing in quotes, but it's so it's all for weird like stat.

You're high status in nerdville. Yes. I'm a, I'm a nerd capo. I wouldn't say I'm a nerd godfather, but I'm definitely a soldier. One thing I learned very, very quickly in the being in the alt scene, I'm sure you saw this too.

The nerds very, very quickly became the jocks. Yeah. Nobody, nobody excludes harder than the previously excluded uh-huh um the people that used to be on the outs when they get their chance they will start excluding like yeah they're not anti-bully they're anti-being bullied yes thank you very much and if and if look any proof of that go go on go on twitter yeah you know that it's or redditchan. Yeah, exactly. And look, I understand that. It is a very basic human concept. I don't want to be a victim. But a lot of times, you cannot be a victim, but you don't need to gather other victims around you to show that you're not victimized. But that's

a very hard level of wisdom to get to that I don't think I've gotten to fully. I still have those moments when I'm just, you get, again, I'm very emotional. I get very vengeful sometimes. You carry a lot of, I remember being picked on and you want to, it's hard to embrace that because you have to embrace a very embarrassing part of yourself and part of your past. But if you can really embrace it, you can stop yourself from then passing that along. You can kind of stop that shit from happening. How do you like parenting? I love parenting because parenting, once I became a dad, and this sounds so cliche but all a lot of the i'm gonna i'm gonna

paraphrase dana gould get ready all the stuff that was important to me i realized wasn't important like all this status shit all this like oh wait a minute that doesn't fucking matter i'm i'm in charge of a life here this is amazing and and i can i can hopefully and and i'm very honest with with her about, like, oh, this is something that I used to do wrong. I can see you going on this path because epigenetics, you've got the same from me, but you can be conscious of it and try to change it.

How do you do it? Just being very honest with them and sometimes being a little bit, not strict but just like i'm just telling you and i know that you're going to want to experience this and that's how you'll find out but i'm just telling you where this will take you i just i know where this will take you i can tell you how old you're my own story she's 15 now yeah it's it's it's insane do you have kids no i have like a i'm more i have like a girlfriend with a kid, so I'm like adjacent. Oh, nice.

How old is her child? Three and a half. Oh, that's the best. Yeah, he's great. That's the best. Yeah, he gets bigger every week. You know, all this shit. Exactly.

No, they grow up very, very, very quickly. It changes you, right? Absolutely. But that's the thing. Every single thing in life changes you, even? Absolutely. But that's the thing. Every single thing in life changes you, even trying to resist change. Like people that I know that remain child-free, that didn't get married, that, no, I just want this life, they end up changing. They just don't realize it. Everything changes you. Even a lack of experience, even a lack of incident that would change you can end up changing you

because it can calcify you and you can become an even more frozen version of what you are earlier. That's a form of change. Do you think it can be positive or do you think that's always negative? I don't know. On an extreme level, like with a Henry Darger thing, a guy that literally never left his apartment, but ended up making some genuinely unforgettable art. But he kind of, H.P. Lovecraft, who just rejected life and did create some art that has lived beyond him. But those are extreme examples. I would hope that people would open themselves up to the as big a version of the canvas of life as they could possibly get. Experience as much stuff as you can, the good and the bad.

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And how are you, how have you been in relationships? Romantic ones. I've been okay okay i was very i you know i haven't been in a i haven't been in a lot of like deep relationships i've had like i would say four very deep relationships in my life like that that went on longer and um and i'm very in a weird way there was a lot of i had a lot of growing up to do was very immature, very, I was very, very ambitious when I was young. So there was a lot of times when I just didn't make that person the number one priority. I was like, I've got to, you know, and so I'm very lucky that I, my current wife, my

forever wife and my current wife, my current wife, my wife for the 2020s. I met her when I had gone through, I think a lot of trauma and a lot of maturing. And it's almost like I had grown to a point where I was like, I could be with someone as amazing as her because she is, has really been through some stuff and really has a, but has kept a core moral compass, unlike anything I've ever seen. And I always didn't have that. And so she just really kind of just lives by example rather than like by lecturing. Can you tell me what, how you changed in that period? you changed in that in that period uh well i mean having a wife die um is terrifying were you a year before a year before michelle passed or before michelle passed yeah i was you know a very

very happy husband dad um you know still not 100% believing in myself. Was still looking for- As a parent? As a husband? As an artist and slash parent, like as a provider. Like I was approaching my art at that point like, well, can I provide for my family? So I was taking every gig. I was saying yes to every movie and I was gone way too much. And I was operating out of panic rather than out of

confidence, rather than out of, this isn't right for you, man. Don't worry about the money. Go and be with your family for a while and figure out what you want to do. So it took me a while to kind of realize that. But I was very, I just wasn't as confident as I am now. And real confident doesn't come from like braggadocio it comes from I think humility embracing true humility and going oh yeah this isn't all about me I'm not the central character in this I don't have to be the central character all the time sometimes you can hang back and listen your time's going to come later you're talking about in specific projects or you're talking about in life? In life. I wanted to be, still wanted to be the center. And with Michelle, who I,

it took me a while to realize to my discredit, you know, this is before, even before she passed, luckily I realized this, that what she was doing as a true crime researcher writer was so much more extraordinary in a lot of ways than what I was doing. And for the really for the first time in my life on a 100 percent level, I was living for someone else. Making sure someone else's dream was coming true and expediting what they wanted to have happen. Like I will be home. I'll be taking care of Alice. You go do what you got to go to this police conference. You have to go talk to these victims and like be away for a

couple of weeks to get all this research down. I'm here. Let me take care of the four. Did you enjoy that? Loved it. It was so freeing to like, this has nothing to do with me right now. I am here. Just a soldier. I'm a soldier. I'm facilitating someone else's dream. And it's an amazing dream. And it feels fantastic. It's like a true, in a weird way, a true artist, when they get into the deep stuff, it's not about them anymore. They're facilitating this other vision. When you direct a movie, I even think when you do comedy and tell jokes, the jokes that really, really of mine that have outside of your need to be cool your need to

be the center your need to be the alpha that's when you're a really amazing work starts coming out so you're scary to do that you feel like you're serving michelle and this project and this sort of movement yeah and then she fucking dies yeah and then that's a great you know what she fucking died there was so much i remember i read cs right after she passed away a friend gave me a friend of mine gave me cs lewis's a grief observed the first line is i did not know how much grief felt like terror it It was terror, absolute terror. I have found this person I want to go through life with. My life is structured around her, it's structured around her daughter, and now she's gone. And so everything is collapsing. Everything is collapsing.

It's terrifying. And I don't think think i'm gonna be able to uh compensate for the collapse i can't hold much of this up no that i was absolutely like please somebody come and help me anybody i was just i just needed help and and all i wanted to do was just like i wanted to like curl myself over alice who was um at the time, and just protect her. Like in my mind, the world was just raining fire and, you know, meteors on us. And all I wanted to do was just protect her and not move. How did you do it? Well, I mean, first I almost did it like literally I would like take her to school in the morning.

Then just park outside the school and just sit and read and think and wait for 3.15 for her to come out and pick her up. We go get food. Like I just was just on her. That's all I wanted to do. Didn't want to do anything else. I was turning down work. How long did you do that for? A couple of months until school was done.

It was right around the end of April. So it was all of April, all of May. I mean, most of April, school was done. It was right around near the end of April. So it was all of April, all of May. I mean, most of April, all of May. And then over the summer, I just wanted to travel with her. We went back to my parents' house. I just wanted to give her constant movement and light and adventure because I'm just like, I want to keep this darkness away from her. I'm like, I'll absorb all this darkness. And so you, I'll go take you to see your cousins. I'll go take you to see, you know, my parents and we'll just run around and have adventures. But the problem with that was I didn't show her my grief.

I wanted to keep that from her because I thought that'd be even scarier if she saw a couple of times I like cried in front of her because you can't help it. You don't have any control, but I wanted to at least show her I'm not going anywhere. I'm here for you, you know? And so I just was moving. I remember when, um, when Michelle passed away, it was during the day and Alice was at school and I was freaking out. And I, I called the, um, luckily at that point, Alice was very used to me going,

Hey, mommy's away. Cause she's doing this thing. Or so I'm like, Hey, you and I are going to check into a hotel for a couple of days. And cause mommy has to go and do all these interviews and we're going to have a fun daddy daughter adventure. And tomorrow you're not, you don't have to go to school. We're going to go shopping because the principal said, don't tell her, don't tell her tonight what happened. Because then she has to go to sleep, have her go to sleep. Like everything's fine. And then tell her, she goes, tell her in the sunshine. So she has the day to deal with it. So all that night I was scrambling. I was flying out. All of her cousins, my parents, all of her aunts and uncles flew into the same hotel we were staying in. So the next day when I did tell her, and it was the worst day of my life,

worst day of my life, then I go, now come with me. And we walked down the hall. And then in the room were all of her aunts, cousins, like all gonna you're not gonna have to do this alone we're all here for you and so like she immediately had that like but it was me just scrambling non-stop just wanted to it also must just be like for it to actually set in for her. Yeah. For you. It took, I mean, there kept, I don't know if you remember after nine 11,

not that I'm. Yeah. But it's your nine 11. But there were those, remember those days after nine 11, where you're just like, wait, did that happen?

Yeah. Wait, like, can I wake up out of this dream? Cause I've had, I remember mornings I would have a really, being a very horrible, very realistic dream. And then I would like will myself out of the dream

and then I'd be awake and it wasn't real. So there were days after Michelle died where I was trying to will, like this is just a long dream that's going on way too long and it's time to wake up. And I was so sure that I could do that. Because again, terror, it's terror. It's absolute terror. And when did you realize you could maintain? Well, yeah, I realized I could maintain. And that was another thing too. Because I was like, I'm just going to exist. I am going to

wake up in the morning. I will take care of Alice. Probably will never do stand up again. I'll find another way to make money. Maybe I can write. I don't know. I certainly can't talk to people, but I'm going to merely exist. And you can talk to people because you were destroyed. Yeah, I just I am mirthless or what? I wasn't even mirthless. I had no feelings. I didn't feel anything after a while. It was all terror and sadness. Months, we're talking about? Months of that and then nothing.

Just I was at husk. But then there was another father at her school who a couple years ago, his wife had passed away. And I remember him saying, here's what you're going to go through. You're going to go through terror and grief, then you're going to feel nothing. And you're going to be okay feeling nothing because you're going to go, okay, I can exist this way and take care of my daughter. And then you're going to feel, you will eventually feel joy again. You're going to feel horrible for feeling joy, but you will because that's what your body needs to do. And you feeling joy and laughing and smiling is good for your daughter

to see. And I married nine months after my wife passed away and you will probably meet someone and fall in love. And I was like, I, that guy had also. Wow. And, uh, so it's a fairly common thing it is a actually it is a very fairly common thing and what was kind of funny was because i met meredith i didn't even meet her face to face till a year after michelle died but we but we started talking online because we had all these friends in common and one of her friends threw these dinner parties and invited me and her and a bunch of other people were on this little Facebook thread. And I just like, I can't go to this. And then Meredith was like, that was a great dinner. And then she goes, Patton, we didn't know. And she goes, hey, you missed the best fucking lasagna. And I went, story of my life. And then I sent her

a message like, yeah, sorry, I couldn't make it. I just I'm still freaking out. And she goes, I know you're good. And then we just started talking wasn't romantic wasn't flirty just i realized what i missed was oh i have someone i can talk to in the dark at the end of the day and then we just kept doing that for three months we never spoke on the phone never met face face just talked every night poured out our brains to each other and then it just turned romantic and then we met we just we were in love before we met basically but then i talked to someone else because when we were going to get married i'm like this feels really weird it's like a year and a half after and then this other woman i knew that was a widow was like i got married seven years after my husband died and people gave me shit

for that they're like you waited too long this is so there's you cannot be you can't do it right you not only can you not do it right you can't do it to please someone else's schedule they've got to go through their own shit and also you're the one who has to be in the fucking relationship i know exactly like you have to sit there you have to drive around and look for parking and like the the mundanity of but god but i found i found someone amazing to be mundane with well that's a good phrase you are the best person to be mundane with that's when you know you found the perfect person yeah yeah let's sit around and eat when you're sitting in the car you're waiting with with this person just get

your fucking seatbelt on get out of the space you can see us waiting yeah if you guys can make that fun you've probably found the person i love the documentary about michelle yeah that was amazing it makes me the thing about it is it's fucking terrifying it's well among other it's 10 different things. One of them is fucking terrifying, like the explanation of the crimes. Of the crimes and how present he was in that community and aware of the effect he was having on people and was just constantly lurking. He's there just off screen, constantly lurking. With no pants on, correct? Am I- Terrifying, yeah.

He was just a complete fucking sadist. When I mean lurking off screen, I mean just within the overall communal psyche of the community, he was very, very aware. And then at times in yards, in people's yards. Not just yards, in bedrooms. He would go in bedrooms and he would like rape someone and then he would go, I'm going to leave now.

You lie here and don't move until I leave. And he would literally stand there for hours, motionless watching them and then wait for them to start to move. And then he would shake the bed and then freak them out. Like just sitting there tortured, like just the. The movie's called The Golden State Killer, right? The documentary's called I'll Be Gone in the Dark. I'll Be Gone in the Dark.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is something that he said in one of his letters. The thing I've been wanting to talk... It's been on my mind and I wanted to ask you about it because you have firsthand... What do you think of that industry? Meaning the documentary of of if i'm one of the victim's families and i'm driving down sunset and i see a billboard for the fucking guy who murdered my

sister right i'm gonna kill somebody yeah it depends uh it's it's i call it you're in a different position but yeah well you know it's not that dissimilar yeah it's it's the serial killer industrial complex which we all live with now um a big point to michelle's work was she wanted to focus on the victims and on the people that were solving the crimes and on one of our earliest dates because i used to be into serial killers but i knew all the stats about the killer and she was like she was into serial killers not only knew all the stats but knew the hunters the police the community organizers that that's who she focused on and it really was a awakening and a maturing to me like serial killers themselves are these zilches they're they're just these nothings ted bundy was an absolute below average zilch

because he was good looking to like so tragic that that a potentially brilliant legal mind he was a fucking idiot yeah he was a fucking child because that sells books that sells so she wanted to try to change that and focus on the victims but yeah there's a lot of these they end up making these serial killers these dark anti-heroes yeah hannibal actor just as dull as gray paint you know they're and as as james elroy said he goes the reason the reason that Thomas Harris is a brilliant writer is because he created something that does not exist and made people scared of it. Same way Bram Stoker basically took the vampire thing, a thing that does not exist, and made people go,

we got to buy garlic and crosses. He goes, serial killers, when they're put in jail, they do not make clever handcuff keys and do cool escapes. Yeah. They watch pornography or they find Jesus, they jerk off, they get fat and they die. Yeah. Because that's who they were in real life. Yeah. There is, he goes, I've only written one serial killer novel because my agent said, do you need, do you want to make some money?

Write one. And the whole serial, it's called killer on the road um and uh it's about what a fucking loser the serial killer is what a piece of shit zilch he is yeah and how much he can't stand them because the what you should be afraid of are people in power who are having a bad day but who have a badge and a gun and license to do whatever the fuck they want that's what's terrifying yeah and okay so back to the other thing i was asking which is what so who did you become in the years after michelle's death who relative to who you were i became way more humble way less cool and way less way more comfortable with not being cool and way more humble, way less cool, and way less, way more comfortable with not being cool, and way more, I used to be very, very competitive with my friends, because I was so insecure,

I had so worried about being abandoned and left behind. And there were moments, I never did anything directly to it, but in my mind, in my head, I was doing the, we hate it when our friends become successful. And I was like, sometimes we hate it when our friends become successful. And I was like, sometimes wishing for my friend's failure because I wanted to be the one that made it. And now, especially when I met Michelle and I found someone like, oh, it's so much more rewarding when you are aggressively, zealously

supporting someone else's work and trying to make sure that they're doing better. And so because of that, and then also because of meeting Meredith, Meredith is the biggest cheerleader for all of her friends. Like she wants her friends to succeed in a very genuine way. And so I've very much come around to, I want the people that I love to do great and to put great work into the world. And then what I found out, ironically enough, is that makes my work better because I make the world more receptive to the kind of stuff that I'm doing when I'm promoting my friends and people that I love that I want to, you know, rather than tear stuff, the stuff that I hate now,

I just ignore. I don't really tear it down anymore. And I, instead I try to, you know, rather than tear stuff, the stuff that I hate now, I just ignore. I don't really tear it down anymore. And I, instead I try to, you know, prop things up that I think need, need light on them. And it took me a long time to get there because I was really insecure. I was really insecure. Then, you know, we're all insecure when we get in this business, don't want to be left out. You know. You want to be in the fastest moving line. But a lot of times if you want to be in the fastest moving line, promote the stuff that you want to be doing better and then let it go from there. Was it your behavior as a dad? You know this.

There's never that – unlike in movies and in some novels, there's never that one big moment of epiphany that changes you forever it's in little stages and it's two steps forward and three back and you but you keep trying but yeah the meeting Michelle kind of seeing her worldview becoming a dad going through grief having everything stripped away from me, then meeting Meredith, who's a genuine, like, I want to uplift everyone, like for real. Whereas a lot of times I would kind of give lip service to that, but she's the real deal. And so seeing all that, Meredith calls it, I just want to elevate everything. That's what she calls it. I want to elevate everything. And she always enters any situation of how can I elevate this rather than rip it apart? So it was a long evolution for me because I'm thick. It takes me a while to learn lessons.

You got to – Yeah, is there a way that like people could do it? I mean I don't think there's, is it pursuable? It's absolutely pursuable if you enter it. And it took me a while to realize this. Just know that you're not going to have the one epiphany that changed you forever. It's something you got to show up for every day. And some days you're going to, you're not going to show up and you're going to have,

ah, I wasted that day. It's okay. Be present. Acknowledge it. Show up to have, ah, I wasted that day. It's okay. Be present. Acknowledge it. Show up the next day. Show up the next day. You know, there were – if I based my comedy career on my – every set I've ever had, then there's at least 15 sets and there's three very specific ones I could point to

that I had every reason just to quit. If you're going to base it on, oh my God, that's the worst set I've ever seen someone do, you know, but you show up the next day, the world, you wake up the next day, the world didn't end. You have another chance to get it right. How long ago were those sets? I remember I was doing one at the improv. This was maybe 10 years ago. You know, you would think that, okay, I'm at this point where people are happy to see me and I'd be good enough to, you know, and this guy went on before me and he just annihilated. And, and then I went on stage and it just, it just, I was not,

absolutely not connecting and kind of being pissy about it. And then someone came back in the room and was like, the guy who was just on stage is hanging out in the bar. Like three different tables got up to go get their pictures with them. Like people getting up, like I would rather go look at that guy. So that like, that's only 10 years ago. And I'm also, there was a few months ago, I was trying out new stuff at this place called the write-off room and i followed a very good friend of mine who

was just had stuff that was ready and it fucking killed and i'm like i'm committed to trying my new stuff and i just absolutely freaking ate it like it was and it was one of those in your face like you could not follow that person like that person was on and you were not that is always in your future somewhere it's okay yeah it's you you were committed to trying new shit

I'm gonna try this new shit no matter what oh boy boy did I commit to that you have one on here, wanting to be loved. What's the downside of that? You become a people pleaser and you live other people's lives and you live in anticipation of other people's approval of you rather than I want my work to be loved. I don't necessarily need to be loved but i want you to at least love the work i'm doing it's hard to separate yourself from that i take my it took me a long

time to take my work seriously and not take myself seriously and that's a long that that can take you a long time well there's also the thing that's great about comedy is like, I just do it and put it out there. No, if you, if you put it out there and it's not good, it's not comedy. Exactly. So yeah, this idea that it,

we, you kind of have to be a people pleaser on some level, but you have to also please yourself in terms of, did I really do the work rather than there's a lot of people right now and i think this is just a phase that we'll all get out of there's a lot of people that are to quote mark maron there's a lot of comedians doing shows and there's a lot of comedians putting on rallies yeah and so there's a that that whole thing of like i don't give a fuck what people think in fact you comedy is supposed to shake people up and upset them no it isn't it's supposed to be making people laugh i don't know yeah how we veered off into that um i just it just comes down to

can you honestly look at the comedy and go is this funny or not look there's there's people i do not agree with personally that still make me laugh my ass off um and there's people that i love personally that do stuff that i'm like fuck i i really love you and i love the comedy you do but that bit wasn't even a fucking bit why are you doing that you know so um to be honest about both of them is is really hard to do like okay for instance there, for instance, there's a guy named Nick DiPaolo. Yeah. Don't agree with him, a single opinion that guy has.

Neither do I, but... But some of his shit is so fucking funny. Like, I can still look at it as a comedian and go, that was brilliant, that was brilliant. That's a brilliantly crafted joke. It's like, I don't think Hillary is a pedophile. No. But he does kind of.

He does. And he's structured in a way that is fucking hilarious. Yeah, and I'm just like, all right. Yeah. That's a good joke. Yeah. You know? And then there's other people, and I know that I got into all this.

I don't even know what exactly he thinks about Hillary Clinton, but some sort of crime family, you know, whatever. He thinks, look, he thinks a lot of crazy stuff, he also happens to be look hp lovecraft believed some genuinely horrible shit and was also a great writers i don't know what the fuck to do with that you know yep and there's other people that are friends of mine that are just like that bit dude what do you do and they'll have it in the middle of a bunch of brilliant bits and then but they have every comedian has – some of them have – and sometimes it's the most brilliant comedians have these weird hobby horses that they cannot jump off of. And they just grind down into like this stopped being a comedy show. Now it's a rally.

What are you doing? This would be great if you could make a joke about it. I don't know who or what you're talking about. Now it's a rally. What are you doing? This would be great if you could make a joke about it. I don't know who or what you're talking about. Oh, I can't wait for the comment. What have been the biggest problems in your life? The biggest personal issues of your life that you had to overcome? Jealousy. Fear of abandonment.

Fear of being left out. And I think the biggest one is not acknowledging that what I hate in other people is what I actually hate in myself. And that I will come down harder on people. That the reason I'm coming down so hard on them is because I'm trying to chase away an aspect of myself and deny it. It's the same thing as like when a guy, you know, is I am anti-gay marriage and I am the pro family. And you're like, well, it's just a matter of time until, you know. I would say like start the clock. Here we go.

I had a joke about this, but, you know, back in the 50s, the gay code language was like we should hook donna up with john it's like john's really great um he's he's really into like broadway musicals do you know what i'm saying you're like oh i get it but that thing now is like we should hook donna up with john john's great but um he's really like into the family like super you know what I'm saying? I get what you're saying. But yeah, so it was the not recognizing that the stuff I'm coming down

hardest on other people is what I'm most scared of myself. That's another form of jealousy I find as well. In that they're doing it more successfully. How are they getting away with this shit? Look, I think a lot of the hatred towards Trump comes from people going, he does shit that I would be beside myself and be losing sleep over like, oh, my God, I was such an asshole.

Yeah. And he doesn't think twice about it. Yeah. He absolutely doesn't think twice about it. And there is a level of jealousy there of there. Look, life is easier as a sociopath. Yeah. It is.

Yep. You know, the people that are, oh my, a lot of times the, I forgot where I read this, but if you look at comic books in the 30s, heroes are always drawn like this. Upright, triangular shoulders, narrow waist, smiling, confident, and villains are these tormented, hunched over. And now in comics, the villains are the upright, clear-eyed, psychopathic, confident.

And the heroes are all these tormented Batman, Wolverine, Spider-Man, hunched over, weight of the world, weight of conscience on them. Because that's what a real hero looks like. Yeah. It's a pain in the ass. It's a pain in the ass. All right. You got to go.

But it was great talking to you. No, don't fight it. This was fantastic, man. It was great talking to you. And by the way, anyone, I'm not saying this, like any young comedians out there, there's a bunch of really good specials out right now. David Tell, his special on Hot Cross Buns and Neil's special. If you want to see a special where it is all meat, no filler,

just stripped down pure. It is. It's a great reminder of like, oh, yeah, comedy doesn't need a huge opening, you know, short film segment, weird camera. No, it's just boom, boom, boom. boom thank you it's a good it's a good reminder so check his special out thank you thanks man thanks for coming Bye.