Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Paula Poundstone

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Neal Brennan interviews Paula Poundstone (Killer comic, 'Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone' podcast, NPR's 'Wait Wait Don't Tell Me' panelist), about the things that make her feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how she is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 3:12 Drinking 4:10 High Maintenance Friend 7:33 Tricky Family 9:57 Solo Parenting 20:24 Asexuality   28:17 Sponsor: Tushy 29:50 Avoiding Confrontation  36:39 Quitting Drinking 44:33 Terrible Boss 57:21 Rumination  59:44 Biggest Successes & Failures of Life  ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/... ---------------------------------------------------------- Sponsors: https://www.hellotushy.com promo code: NEAL for 10% off your first bidet order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, it's Neil. I forgot to record a proper intro, so here it is. Guest today is Paula Poundstone. Started stand-up in the early 80s at the age of 19 in San Francisco. Since then, she's done every imaginable type of special you can do. She's a killer comic, ton of crowd work. She doesn't like me calling it that, but that's what I call it. We talk about family, sobriety. She has foster kids.

I call it. We talk about family, sobriety. She has foster kids. Should note, she had some sort of legal run-in with foster care early in the early 2000s. Seems to have worked out just dandy. And we had a great conversation. She's absurdly unique. Paula Poundstone. What did you just say? I said, don't you wish that you could take you know what you've what you've trained for what you've learned at like say whatever age right over let's say 45 plus yeah and then and then time travel and go back and use those new skills well but i guess my question is did you train you train for something else and then you got a skill almost inadvertent. Do you know what I mean?

No. Meaning, what did I train for? Well, I feel like if I were to go back and be 40, I could be really good at it. Got it. Like an unbelievable. I would win the annual 40 awards the the very prestigious yeah i would yeah i would be people would when my neighbor come up

people go my god she was unbelievable at 40 yeah what didn't you know at 40 because you're supposed to know by 40 of course you don't no you don't what didn't you know well i didn't quit quit drinking until after 40 is that true yeah i would prefer to quit drinking a little earlier when did you quit drinking i can't remember 23 years ago okay um so uh yeah but just in everything i mean that's one example and a dramatic example but just in everything after i left home i would have just left it that way i wouldn't have tried to fix it i wouldn't have tried to continue relationships with family members i would have just gone okay that was it thanks good you've come to the right podcast i like i like what you're i like where you're coming from all right well i don't we've never met before and i only know you

through television and npr and isn't it great that i just blurt stuff out well no that's another lesson that's a lesson that i would use that i see i speak i talk so compulsively that i often gary shandling used to do this great joke where he would say that he'd be on the couch with a woman making out and he'd be entirely naked and she'd still have a parka on is the way he described it. And that's me in every conversation. And that's 23 years after you've stopped drinking. Yeah. Yeah. Cause no, that was not a function. I'm sure it was worse when I drank, but that's not a function of alcohol. That's just. And what's the, okay. So what, no, that was not a function. I'm sure it was worse when I drank, but that's not a function of alcohol. That's just.

And what's the. Okay. So why do you think you were drinking so much for most of your life? Oh, because. Well, not for most of my life. Well, 40 years. But for a stretch. Well, I didn't drink for 40 years.

I didn't start as an infant. I guess 25. Because, boy, that would be a story that explained itself uh because alcohol is is addictive and that's the you know and you tell yourself did you like it no you didn't not the taste but the experience of being drunk no no no no uh here's what i was really addicted to for years um you know you know how people will say to you sometimes they'll go you know uh if you were to talk to young people what what advice would you give them and i used to go well i don't know now i have a i have a standard thing that i say avoid drama when i was younger i would i loved being somehow embroiled in drama. Looking back, it's embarrassing, but that is just a brutally honest thing.

I've never heard someone say that. Yeah. That's really interesting. I just loved, you know, I was a high-maintenance friend. I just, I loved, you know, the more angst I could have, the more difficulty I could find. I was just somehow, some part of me was delighted by it. And when you think about it, what would push that forward? Well, you know what? How about a drink? And looking back, I can honestly say, because people will say to themselves,

well, it'll loosen me up or, well, I don don't know somehow things will be easier so you know make something easier make something more fun not once take the edge off never never not once it put the edge on absolutely yeah it's a big old pain in the ass and i i boy would i boy do i wish i could time travel um but uh what when you say high maintenance friend tell me about that because i'm now i'm thinking am i a high maintenance friend, tell me about that. Cause I'm now I'm thinking, am I a high maintenance friend? Tell me about being a high maintenance. Pain in the ass because I was always upset about something. I was always, um, and sometimes it was something that I could, uh, that, you know, with a couple

of steps I could have solved. Uh, and, uh, and was it, you didn't want to solve it? You wanted to be in the problem? No, I think I liked being the squeaky wheel. I think I liked being the person that had some sort of challenge and then didn't that mean that this person needed to help me or that person needed to help me? And I mean, I can't tell you how much I regret that,

but that's just one of those things. I wish I could go. I have a fantasy in my head of there being like a giant pink pet eraser. Remember the big erasers that were pink and they were slanted on the ends? Like just going over my lifetime line with a giant pink pet eraser just to get some sections out. just to get some sections out. Now, meanwhile, in that journey that I screwed up so badly of that behavior, I did, in fact, meet some really fun, nice people,

and I wouldn't want to erase them all. Yeah. So I would have to get really detailed with my pink pen eraser. Wouldn't a lot of it be your own behavior within these relationships, or you were attracting bad people? No, I don't think I ever attracted bad people. No, no, I have really great taste for the most part in people that I hang out with. I just think that I would feel like the way I would sort of hook them in

is I would be the person who required, who needed something. Would it be service? Would it be emotional attention uh something would it be service would it be emotional attention what would it be i think emotional attention yeah yeah and uh i don't know uh didn't work out all that well um but i you know somewhere along the way you know like some sort of like some sort of bottom feeder crustacean i I did shake that. I did crawl out of that shell. What made you realize you were doing it? I'm not sure.

I mean, I think I kind of always felt like a certain tug of consciousness about it, and I was just sort of able to swat that away for the longest time. And then somewhere along the course of having kids, I went, you know what? You know, that really needs to go by the wayside. You were from a tricky family? Everybody is. Yeah.

Yeah. I used to say when people talk about the phrase that came up from therapists years ago was dysfunctional family. Everyone comes from a dysfunctional family. That's what the family is. It's two incredibly fucked up people who meet and sometimes mate and give birth to children who they fuck up exponentially. So when you think about it, you know, generations from now, it's going to be worse. Oh, well, do you think that you're, I mean, the idea is like it ends with me.

Do you think that there's any realism to that? What do you mean? People think like, well, I'm not going to do to my kids what was done to me. Oh, I think I have already in some ways. I mean, I think there are some things that I recognize, you know, that I remember from growing up that I go, okay, I'm not going to do that. Little things. Here's an example. You know, that I remember from growing up that I go, OK, I'm not going to do that little things. Here's an example. I was always being tormented about my hair, about my clothes. And that's from that was true socially, but it was also from my family constantly that I.

Tormented about your hair? About my hair, about the way I dressed, about the sort of way I was physically. And particularly, you know, the hair thing just went on and on. And so when my kids were growing up, one time when my middle daughter was in like preschool, she'd gotten herself dressed and she came, you know, and she came out from her bedroom and, you know, she had on some things that didn't sort of go together in the classic way. And so I looked at her and I said, do you want mom to show you how to choose clothes that match? And she said, no. And that was the last conversation about clothing that I ever had with them, except for when my daughters were like teenagers. So my daughters used to insist that I take them to Victoria's Secret

and buy underwear that was, it would be like 45 bucks for something that wasn't more than three strings. And, you know, I did it because that's what they wanted. And I was, again, you know, fine, whatever. It wouldn't be my choice, but go ahead. And so that I did tease them about. But outside of that, I never said a word about how anybody dressed. You had foster kids?

Yeah, and then I adopted them. How did you decide on, like, that was the way to do it? What do you mean? Parenting? Just, you know, you didn't, you weren't, you decide on, like, that was the way to do it? What do you mean? Parenting? Just, you know, you didn't, you weren't, you didn't, were you married? You never got married? No, never got married. No, that was, I, you know, I'm happy for everybody else, but I just don't have a bone of that in my body. I just, you know.

Pairing up? Yeah. That type of thing? Yeah, I just don't. And the difficulty of raising kids on your own never, never was worth the solitude, so to speak? I think that raising kids as a couple is probably a wonderful thing to do. I'm totally in support of those who do it. That's great.

The idea that I would have to committee my decisions is just abhorrent to me. So, no, I don't, it just wasn't, that was never in the cards. That was never going to happen. When I was younger and I would think about my future, it never included kids. Never included kids. Not really. I wasn't one of those women who felt like, oh, and someday I want to have a family. And what changed your mind? Probably my oldest daughter. I used to volunteer in a group home. My oldest daughter was there.

And I just fell in love. She was the cutest little baby I ever saw in my life. What made you volunteer in a group home? I had this feeling that I had something to give and that I wanted to be able to use it in a group home um i had this feeling that i had something to give and that i wanted to be able to use it in a way that moved things forward in a in a bigger way how did you parent in terms of discipline uh you know timeouts yep and did that work not really but um not really what what do you think works is there is there just waited out my middle daughter used to, when she

was just a toddler, like real, you know, little, just walking. I mean, she was talking enough that she could understand the words that I was saying and stuff. But we always had a lot of cats and she would, I'd be doing the dishes and she would grab a cat and bite its ear. I forget for how long this phase lasted. And interestingly, as far as I know, the cats never retaliated, which I was, because I think cats kind of know, oh, yeah, well, that's like a kitten. It's like a human kitten. But anyway, she used to grab my cats and bite their ears.

And when she would do that, I mean, partly because I didn't want her being mean to the cat, but partly because she was going to get herself hurt doing that. So I would rush over and tell her no. And then I would say, no, you have to go sit on the stairs. And she would go sit on the stairs. And then I would say, okay, you can get up. And then after a while, she would grab a cat, bite its ears, and then walk over and sit on the stairs. She never really put it together as a- Yeah, turn herself in. Yeah, exactly.

So that was part of her process. She thought that after you have a big old bite of cat's ear, you rest. Go have a seat. I think that's what she came up with. I didn't think about what you did. Yeah. I don't think, think about what you ever did, ever entered into the picture. And by the way, you know, I don't know if it can even for adults.

I think that when you're upset about something, if you're angry with somebody, like say, I don't know, you're just upset enough that you sort of lashed out as a kid or as an adult in such a way that you get called on it. And now you're sort of you know put aside like oh now you have time to think about it i don't think those are the thoughts that enter your head at that point i think you're just defensive right i think you're still angry and you're still justifying it right and now you're like now you're doubly mad because well now i've been busted for this thing and i still feel that other person did the blah, blah, blah. So I don't know when, you know, I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure. Are there, well, that's the thing about like where people go like, I don't think they experienced true remorse

or they said, or they go, you're sorry you got caught. Right. Yeah. Most people are sorry they got caught because they've already pre-justified whatever they were doing in their head so what i'm what i have you ever seen have you ever felt pure remorse yeah you have yeah absolutely at the right time for the right reason uh i don't know but my point is just that i think

when okay here's an example okay uh so after the Boston Marathon bombing, two brothers, for whatever their reason, not an okay thing to do no matter what your reason is. But they believe they have a reason, right? And so they do this terrible thing. apparently accidentally ran over his older brother and kills him during their shootout. Trying to get away. And now, eventually they catch

the younger brother and they put him in jail. I can't remember if they right away put him because where he is now is like such an unconstitutional facility because no humans interact with him. You know, a robot brings his food. That's a terrible thing.

Although that's how most people live in L.A., but go ahead. Well, that's a good point. Now we're all moving in. Yeah, you're right. We're all jealous of that guy. But when he first went to jail and there was a video camera in his jail cell and he would flip off, you know, he would flip off the video camera and that used to be on the news, you know, look at this guy.

He's flipping us off like like that was the worst thing he ever did yeah okay at this point this kid has no one who likes him no one and of course he's flipping off the video camera like i would flip off the video camera that's just the stupidest thing in the world once you've taken away, and for righteous reasons, but once you've put somebody in isolation. There's no incentive to do the right thing. Why would he? All of a sudden, he's supposed to reach out to everybody? Yeah.

That ship has sailed. That ain't going to happen. But maybe over time, he'll come to, right? But in that moment, why would he do anything? But also maybe why do I need him to over time come back to, it's not going to bring anyone back. Right. Yeah. I just, I always thought that was the funniest thing that that was people's reaction.

You know, it's like, you know, okay. It's like when Trump posts the heinous things that he posts and people will go, and it was in all caps. Okay. You know what what that is so not a worthy detail oh right that's so it means nothing yeah it was in all caps you know or uh yeah i don't yeah uh yeah it's like is that that's your issue is the is that he hit all caps boy um but you lock that caps thing boy this guy that you've gone that one step too far it's a sociopath yeah and don't you kids be thinking in all caps you go you go to your room and you sit and think about what you've done and i don't want to find out you were thinking in

all caps um do you so how what grade do you give yourself as a parent i don't grade myself as a parent fair enough um it's a it's a useless pursuit do you so you just assume there's something because my girlfriend has kids she's like yeah i assume i've screwed him up somehow i just don't know how yet yeah and then you know and then there's the part that you have no control over and it's and what are you going to do at this point pursuit it's you just you know there's that great impressions song you know keep on pushing yeah you know it's all you can do yep it's all you can do i mean i i went through one period of time in my life where i was a lot which is, you know, every time I started to feel like, you know, I wished that I had done this or I wished that I had done that,

and it was a thought that would come into my head like while I was doing chores or something, you know. Generally when I was alone, you know, sifting the litter boxes or something, I'd think, well, I wish I'd done that. And every time I heard myself say that I would just like screech the brakes, like Fred Flintstone's feet, uh, in his car and go, you know, and now what? Right. Cause that's the only answer is now what?

Yeah. Uh, you know, all that is useless. And what it's going to do is I'm going to end up, you know, another year from now, another month from now, 10 years from now, having the same thoughts, you know, because I didn't take the, you know, the energy that I'm putting into this, you know, regret that I didn't take it and just put it into the right now. You know, so now what? And does that end the thought? A lot of times it used to. As I said, I'm not as good at it now as I was then, but also that was when my kids were at home. And so a lot of it was, you know, just like, okay, so, you know, what do I need to do for them now?

And again, you know, you just don't control everything as a parent. And it's a funny idea. I mean, I'm not what my parents wanted me to be. They didn't, as parents, control things about me. When I started as a comic when I was 19, and people used to say to me, what do your parents think about that? And I would say, I have no idea.

I didn't ask them. And I used to tell that to my kids all the time because you're going to do what you're going to do. And if I have an opinion and I happen to blurt it out, take it for what it's worth. What's the goal with,'s what's the goal with as a parent happy healthy say what is it successful oh i think i think every parent would want their kids just to be happy in whatever form that takes on your wikipedia besides your blocks which i we have you can't believe anything on wikipedia it's a terrible idea

the idea that everybody adds information yeah no i i yes i'm with you there the things that i found of interest were atheist asexual i don't know anything that begins with an a yeah i like that i didn't get past the a's yeah um atheist and asexual asshole of course i was gonna that was the third one Those were the two that I was like, oh, those are interesting. Asexual, because you must have been, if that's true, you must have been confused by it. Confused by what? I was listening to a podcast yesterday where the person was saying like, there was no, it really wasn't a thing.

Like people didn't know that that was a thing you could be. It was a thing you were, but you didn't know if anyone else was that well yeah i think that's true for for me i don't know that i would you know i it's so i've had so many people ask me about my sexuality and what i always tell them is when i find out i'll let you know uh because i really you know one time after a show, I usually do a meet and greet, and this mom came up with her high school kid, and the high school kid was a young girl, and she wanted to talk to me. She was so excited that I said that I was asexual, and she said, because so am I.

And I, you know, in my head I was thinking, well, don't close off. Yeah, it's pretty young. Why take on a label that's going to close off doors to you should you, you know, should that not turn out to be the case? You know, one of the things about my kids' generation that is so brilliant is that they'll say, you know, they'll say, well, you know, I'm gender fluid or I'm bisexual

or I'm – I think it's brilliant because why on earth lock yourself into a particular title when who knows? Yeah. Right. What might transpire at some point in your life? And does it need to be labeled? I don't think so. Did you find it?

I mean, the person on the podcast and this thought I've had as well, which is like it sexuality and needing sex and needing sexual attention is pretty time consuming oh my gosh i yeah you know when i when when my kids were little and we always had a lot of pets too still do uh and you know every minute was precious you know uh and it was like you know i was running in front of a, you know, sort of giant lawnmower all the time, just so much that had to get done just in order to, you know, keep them healthy and functioning and, you know, still be bringing in money and all the things that you have to do as a parent. And I would always think to myself, my God, and there's people who have to,

you know, the idea, like I always said, I never, I don't, I didn't used to go to sleep. I passed out. You know, I just would get, I would, I would keep working, keep working, keep cleaning and keep doing everything until I literally could not take another step forward. And I'm like, and there are people who at this point now would have to go into their bedrooms and have an activity yeah i can't imagine that yeah that's a horrible idea yes um but if it gives them something that i'm missing well good for them but uh yeah just yeah did you ever look at it as like an advantage of like what did it was it alienating great advantage i think it's a great event and you have to find the person.

Yeah. That's the other thing. All the time to find the person. Yes. And then you have to put up with. And then by the way, that person you found, wrong person. Yeah, exactly. You just spent eight, nine years on the wrong person.

Yeah. And then you have to, right. And then you have to put up with. And then it gets mean. And then you owe the money. And then it gets mean with someone that knows so much about you. I mean, it just sounds like oh yeah i mean i realized that if everyone were me um then there wouldn't be enough of us to go on but uh but i'm you know i always say you know to the rest of you good go have at it

yeah uh and they did they have yeah historically yeah um and did you so did you find it alienating and then or did you ever were you just like i don't really care or did you ever go like why am i not pursuing this in the way that other people are oh it definitely felt like there's you know there must be something horribly wrong with me um but there was a period of time where I sort of did go through the motions of, because that's what I thought you were supposed to do. And so there was a period of time where I, like as a kid and stuff, I would, when my sisters would want to do the game where you wrote down, you wrote down a list of names of boys that you might marry. And then you wrote down what kind of house you were going to have.

And all those back of the car on long trips games that we used to play. Oh, I went through all that. That was what I was going to do because I thought you were supposed to. I don't think at the time I really put it together with the idea of sex. I just thought. So when you're 28, 29, 30, everyone's pairing up, everyone's, and are you just,

was people like, were worried about you? Or did they assume you were a lesbian and they were like, that's none of our business? Like, what did they think? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But I did, you know none of our business. Like, what did they think? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But I did, you know, then there's that other, okay, then there's that other side of things where people go,

well, you know, you must be a lesbian. Yep. And then they get upset because you're not coming out as a lesbian. I remember being on stage one night and I said to the audience, you know, I had some joke with it, I've forgotten, but I audience, you know, I had some joke with it. I've forgotten. But I said, you know, I really don't like sex. And, you know, some audience member shouted out, with women.

And I said, can you see that that would still be sex? Yeah. But, yeah, I definitely went through where I tried to figure out, you know. And again, I always tell my kids, I go, you know, years from now when I'm not busy, who knows? Yeah. You know, I might just surprise everybody. How young is the youngest kid? 26.

Oh, so you shouldn't, you got to be, you're in the clear, aren't you? No. Okay. You're never in the clear. Right. But you're not like, it's not lawnmower passing out phase, aren't you? No. Okay. You're never in the clear. Right. But you're not like, it's not lawnmower passing out phase. Is it still? No, no, it isn't.

Although, you know, where there's space, there's plenty of things that come into. So, you know, I'm still behind. I still have stacks of lists of things to do that haven't been touched. I still have. My mom's 90. She still has them. Wow. Yeah. Boy, that's sad. have stacks of lists of things to do that haven't been touched i still have my mom's 90 she still has them wow yeah that boy that's sad um i still have uh i've lived in the house i've we live in now i live i rent um i have had just pieces of fabric stapled to the top of the sill for curtains for 23 years.

Yeah. And I've been meaning to get them measured and order some sort of Roman shade. I like that you would get them. You couldn't do it yourself. Take 40 seconds. I think you're supposed to have it measured in a particular way, I believe.

They always say, you know, we get professional. I don't. I think that with the internet, Paula. If you're going to go to the expense of the Russian, not Russian, Roman shade. If you're going to go to the expense of the Roman shade, then you may as well have somebody measure it properly. Hey, you know how I'm always, I've been encouraging the bidet lifestyle for, I don't know, got to be 20 years. Well, guess what? I'm still encouraging the bidet lifestyle for, I don't know, got to be 20 years. Well, guess what? I'm still encouraging the bidet lifestyle.

Ain't nothing changed. I had a bidet joke in blocks. I have a bidet joke in my act now because I love bidets so much. I bought a bidet for my friend Jesse and he said it, he whispered to me, it changed my life. I don't want to say it's like religion, but it's a different faith. That's my faith is bidet. They sent me a tushy. I've had bidets. They sent me a tushy. I put the tushy on in place of mine and it's just as good. I had a very expensive one and an ex-girlfriend got me,

don't ask any questions. And it was just as good as the name, big brand that I had. It's X. I put it on myself it was super easy you turn off a thing you turn thing attach a thing turn it back on and you it's you've got a working bidet I know nothing you can adjust the heat of the thing you can adjust the pressure it's there's a whole lot you can do it's not going to change your identity my My identity. You're going to be fine. Stay shower fresh all summer long and join the 2 million butts who have already switched to Tushy. For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off their first bidet order when you use code NEAL at checkout. That's 10% off your first bidet order at hellotushy.com, promo code Neil.

I'm telling you, do it. Trust me. Tell them Neil sent you. Promo code Neil. Paul, it says that you avoid confrontation at all costs. Oh, I'm not sure that that's entirely true, but it's pretty true. I like that you tried to convert me a little bit, but not all the way. No, I couldn't really push back.

No, I do. I don't know if I'd say at all costs. Well, not at all costs, but like often. No, I do. I don't know if I'd say at all costs. Well, not at all costs, but like often. No, I am pretty wussy. One time when I was a kid, I think it was like in high school, and our church used to have the church fair. And if you were a high school age kid, you could work a booth, right? So, um, I, uh, was so excited to go work, um, on, on the lawn. They always had pony rides and, uh, you know,

for years I had gone on the ponies and now I was going to get to, you know, be one of the people helping out with the pony rides. And I don't know anything about horses at all still. But at the time, we're on this grassy area. And at one point, this horse that I had by the lead just stepped on my foot. Now, it wasn't on the pavement, so my foot could sink a little bit, and that was good. But it did step on my foot. And I just stood there. I didn't do anything. I didn't try to move the horse because i thought well what if you're not supposed to try to move the horse i didn't ask anybody for help i just let the horse stand on my foot until it decided to move and oftentimes that is kind of who i am in every other way i just yeah here's a question that may be invasive what did you grow up on alcohol alcoholism no interesting yeah because

that well listen it's not hard to find alcohol no no but alcohol like did you was there an alcoholic head of house was there no no okay because there that has been my experience or my my dad was a narcissist and he's sort of like you don't they dictate everything and maybe you're just generationally like from authoritarian parenting and like you couldn't really speak up you know you know that old argument nature versus nurture yeah nature kicks the living shit out of nurture i i'm not sure that nurture has anything to do with it. I mean, to the degree, yes, if somebody is abused or, right? I just, okay, take, I don't know anything about Frederick Douglass' family life when he was little, but Frederick Douglass taught himself to read. You know, and again, I don't know, like, you know,

I don't know if he lived with his parents when he was a slave. I don't know. I don't remember. But it kind of takes away this. He set a high bar for the rest of us. Yeah. You know, to have such success and to have come from such difficult circumstances, what could any parent have said or done, you know, for their bondage? I mean, I don't know if you remember being very young.

I remember the taste of my crib. Something tells me you were like, for real? Yeah. How did it taste? I was in there for a long time. Yeah, well, what were you? I think it had like some shellac shit on it. And so I still remember. How did it taste? I was in there for a long time. Yeah, well, what were you, how were you? No, I remember, I think it had like some shellac shit on it,

and so I still remember the taste of the shellac. Do you feel like that's who, I feel like you've been who you are from the beginning. I kind of think we are, largely. I just think we are. How young did you start dealing with your children? How young were they? Oh, infants.

My oldest daughter was four and a half when she came to me, but I knew her since she was an infant. But, and I got to tell you, I mean, talk about somebody that was all but written in stone from early in life. She is. She is the strongest person I have ever known. Willful? Yes.

You're talking physically strong? Not physically strong, just in terms. Now, she can use that for good or evil at any point in her of, now she can use that for good or evil at any point in her existence, but there was just nothing you were going to say to that kid that was going to change what she was going to do. And that may have been forged very early on in her life. Yeah, I'm dealing with my,

I was talking to my girlfriend last night about her son and she's he hates losing and she was like trying to teach him you know that it's okay to lose and you can learn and he's like yeah i get that and he whispered to himself but i have to win oh wow and you go huh and we were talking about like, do you, there's a chance, there's a better chance of him having a successful life as a capitalist. Right. If that's the ethos. Do you intervene and go, hey, chill with that? I am to your point.

I don't know if you can, no, I think you have to make the effort. I think you have to make the effort I think you have to make the effort but what if I believe winning is pretty important well I like to win I think everybody likes to win I bought for a friend years ago a slot machine

and you know when I gave it to him you know we played with it but it wasn't a slot machine from a casino. It was like a slot machine that you could buy. And when we played with it, which I hadn't thought of until it was there, and it wasn't cheap either, but, you know, it's useless. You don't care because there's nothing on the line.

Right. Yeah. It's just a button. Yeah. And so winning or losing is meaningless within. With no tension. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And yeah, so it's like, I'm curious because I've heard a lot of people say like, no, my son, my daughter was them from the minute I looked at them. Yeah. It was pretty clear. I think that's true. I think that's true. I think that's true. You know, and the whole thing about, you know, people changing,

you know, some people go, oh, people can't change. No, I think you can change, but I also think that you're born into, I have my entire life talked so much, and in my head a lot of times I'm saying to myself, shut up, shut up, shut up shut up shut up and i will you know i'll write it down i'll try to remind myself i'll think about it before i encounter somebody i'll think how i want to make sure that i'm not talking as much as i usually

talk i cannot well uh how did you stop drinking um because that was the thing you clearly couldn't stop doing. Yeah. And then how did you stop? Well, I was in silly, stupid rehab for a long time, for one thing. Silly, stupid, that's the name of it? Yeah. What, you didn't like it? It was okay. It was okay.

Can you at least think like it served its purpose or no? Yeah, I think it did. It was a place where alcohol was not available to me. Yep. And that was helpful. And I got a little bit of time. Did the shares help? Did any of it help?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So you like the lack of alcohol. You know, it's funny. There was a woman, you know, I was court ordered to AA for five years. And I went. I'm not an AA-er, but I went because I had to. And there's a lot of reasons I dislike AA. I wouldn't want to take it away from somebody for whom it's helpful. But having said that, I do often think of something when a person, a person I didn't even

like, a person that would, when they would talk in these meetings, I just kind of felt like, oh, yeah. But this one woman said something one time, she said this great thing. And I think she said somebody else had told it to her, which is when you're upset or whatever, she goes, look where your feet are. And what she meant by that, as she explained, was, for example, now I'm with a very nice person. I'm in an air-conditioned studio. I have plenty of water available to me in this bottle that I keep squeaking into the microphone. I'm fully clothed, right? The facts of your life there's a roof over here when I drive home

there'll be a roof over my head right look where your feet are it's a great it's a great reminder to kind of lower your temperature in certain you know when you start to surf if you're hearing us

talk things are going pretty well for you. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? You have some sort of device. Right. You have your headphones. You have a set.

You have, you can afford, you can afford stuff. You can most likely. Yeah. Like, yeah. And there are different, and in addition to that, there are difficult things. But from where you are, you'll cope with those things. You'll be, you know, and, uh, and I, and I often refer to that when I talk about how I really dislike lots of things about AA because it's not, you know, I don't dislike everything. Um, there were, there were

helpful things. And the thing about rehab, uh, and if someone's feeling like, you know, maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't go to rehab. Um, it is helpful to be in a place where alcohol is not available to you and it's helpful to kind of I think you know focus on that problem. Well it's funny because we did talk about the state mandating. Well that I have a big problem with. As it pertains to you can you tell me about it? No I have a big problem with the state sending people to aa why i'm interested in that because okay uh first of all i'm an atheist right well i used to say to people uh at that you know back when i was fighting that battle um i i would say to people well i'm an atheist and they would say me, it doesn't have to be God. It can be the ocean. And I would say, well, if I was drinking, that would make sense to me. And it's very

dismissive of my atheism. And I remember at one point, my son was going to, he was in a school in Virginia and they took the kids to church on Sunday. And I, I hadn't been told that originally. And, and so I, at some point I, when I found out I objected and, you know, they kind of, you know, they're in Virginia. So they looked at me like, what's the matter with you? And I said, I am a proud atheist and I take my atheism as seriously as you take your Christianity. And I think the guy actually heard me when I said ignore that part. You know what? How about y'all? How about we do it my way and y'all just ignore your religion? No, nobody's going to go for that, right? So you have to. But okay, so that's one thing that I object to. But the other thing is, and AA could fix this in a second. So the judge will say, well, okay, you have to go to AA.

And they'll tell you how often that you have to go. You had to go every day? No, I had to go, I think, three times a week. Yep. For five years. For whose county? And I wasn't busy enough. But the way they proved that you went was you have these cards uh and you have to get your aa card signed

and then you have to you know show it to the authorities uh all of which i did i did everything i was told i had to do um and uh but the thing about a you were listing the you know the 12 steps but then they what's the second thing they do? The 12. Inventory maybe? No, no. Precepts or something. And now you're talking about just like how AA works. Yeah. And one of the first things they say is we're a program of attraction, not promotion, I think is how they put it. Okay. I was not attracted first of all. And in fact, I was. You weren't promoted either. Well, I was promoted by the court. Well, yeah, it was the court.

Now, if you object, and I did, but what they'll tell you, I say, well, why? Why AA? Why? They'll say, well, because they have the best record for helping people. Okay. They do not. Right. Well, they don't keep records.

They don't keep records. Precisely. Precisely. By the way, I like 12-step programs, and I agree with you. I've gotten a lot of help from other 12-step programs, but you're not wrong. Yeah. So I say this going like, I had helped me, but I also understand where you're coming from. Well, so here's the thing.

I understand where you're coming from. Well, so here's the thing. So this is all AA has to do to make that part right, which is tell the courts they won't sign those cards. That's all they have to do. Right. Why is AA working hand in hand with the government? That's absurd.

And by the way, you know what people used to say to me all the time? So when you go to AA, one of the things that they do with their members is for each meeting, there's several jobs. You know, there's somebody who distributes literature. There's someone who greets people at the door. There's somebody who makes the coffee. Treasurer. I was a treasurer.

Treasurer, right. So, you know, there's a way for people to contribute and to make them feel like they have to keep coming because they have this responsibility, all of which is lovely. But they have a person whose job is to sign the cards at the end of the meeting. And even the person who signed the cards used to say to me, why don't you just sign them yourself? And the answer is, because I was told I have to do this thing. Yeah. And I don't want to put it at risk.

Yeah. Right? I've lost enough. Thank you. And so it's not worth it to me. But all AA has to do is say, we're not going to sign cards. And then the government can't do that anymore and if and they may find another way but why should aa be complicit in that um you're a terrible boss

i like that because no one ever said i asked letterman i like, did you like being a boss? He was like, no. Some of us are not temperamentally fit for being a boss with a good temperament. Or even knowing how to get things done. Or like, I am overly a hard ass. I just am not good at telling people what to do. How do you feel about being told what to do? Because there's a part of you that's like, I'll do whatever. I don't mind being people what to do how do you feel about being told what to do because i because there's a part of you that's like i'll do whatever i don't mind being told what to do okay uh but you know but then there also is a part of you logical i don't like illogical things i don't like wasting

my time but uh one of the things as a podcaster uh and i have a podcast it's called nobody listens to paula poundstone and uh you know we've been with a number of networks now. And the one that we're with now, they insist on having a meeting. And we have to have this Zoom meeting once a month. And even once a month feels like, boy, that month flies by, doesn't it? It is the stupidest damn meaning um and i i've never been in i've never been in a business where i've had to do that before uh you know like if you talk to people in the corporate world all the time uh you know every day um several times a day for

years i've done uh host hosted benefits for an organization that used to be called the Valley Healthcare Clinic, I think it was. Within the time that I've known them, no. Okay. Maybe they didn't change it more than once. I've worked with other organizations where they've changed their name more than once. But now they call it like Valley Health. Yep.

Or something like that. VA. Something like that. And so when I go on stage, I always tease them. I go, how many meetings did that take? Yeah. Because you know it did. Yeah.

And the truth is, does it make any difference at all? Maybe they know a way in which it does, but I doubt it. Yep. Same thing, what was the other one I used to do? Oh, I do. I have over the years, not so much right now, but I have over the years done a lot of work with an organization that was originally called Friends of the Libraries. And they've changed that name, I mean, five damn times.

And I cannot imagine that it's made any difference at all to the work that they do, which is terrific work, by the way. Libraries are great places. But every time I entertain them, because that's really the biggest way in which I contribute is I go and entertain them during their conferences. Every time I, you know, I can't resist tormenting them over how many times they've changed their name because it's just the silliest so you don't so my because they're having pointless meetings there's a lot of comedians i've noticed it in myself noticing other people the other comedians we will do what we're told and quietly resent it. Oh, yeah. Well, definitely that. Again, unless it, if it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, if it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense. But we're very, we're more logical than most people. Oh, I don't know if I think that's true. Well, okay. You know, because first of all, when everybody says, when anybody says most people, or when one of the things that i loathe and i and i i will not tolerate this both sides do it thing uh in politics um at all any longer because it's so untrue but there is one but there is one area where perhaps democrats join in, maybe not to the same degree, but also do this thing that I loathe,

which is to say, well, Americans believe blah, blah, blah. I'm like, you know what? If you knew what all Americans believe, first of all, we don't. The very same person who says, we've never been more divided. And then a few sentences later they go, but Americans believe blah, blah, blah. We believe almost nothing as collective any longer. I think we also believe within ourselves we all believe 10 different contradictory things. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. we all as comics um you and i probably know a lot about uh how our brethren function but not so much at all about how that compares to the rest of the world

well i will say we charge money to hear our thoughts yeah so i'm gonna assume that our thoughts are uh novel in some way i would i would argue they're extremely i don't think they're extremely uh uh linear or extremely non-linear that would be that would be the two things to charge for we just have the ego um because you can't be a comic without agreed you know big slice of ego pie um We just have the ego to go on stage and to some degree feel driven, I think, to go on stage and say our thoughts out loud. But I just don't think outside of that, we're all that different i mean twitter is a great example um i'll post something on twitter and then somebody else will post something um in response to that

and uh you know and then there'll be just chain of responses and they are often so damned funny yeah or i'm following somebody who's not not anybody they're not a that's not but not a famous person yeah they're not famously fun and what they say is so damned funny we we don't we do not you know carry the flame of the only you know i don't think we're again you're you may be over sit i don't think we're uh the only funny people on earth i just think we're consistently more funny and we're doing a thing consistently that most people do occasionally. But again, you just don't know that. The only difference is we have the ego

to go on stage and do it. I gotta say, I've known comics that were consistently unfunny. I totally agree. And by the way, that doesn't mean they don't have followers. I would say they're just not people that amuse me. I totally agree.

I would just argue Mark Twain, Richard Pryor, et cetera, pretty unique thinkers. Yeah. God forbid. I don't think there's a lot of Mark Twains out there working construction and people are going like, you shouldn't do anything with that. Yeah. Mark Twain, you should keep digging. They would go get the fuck out. You've saw Good Will Hunting. you should keep digging they would go get the fuck out you saw goodwill hunting 20 years if

you're still living here coming over my house watch the patriots game you're still working construction i'll fucking kill you they tell them to get out of there yeah um um so so i guess my point is being a boss when you say richard prior it just makes me smile automatically yeah yeah don't google him yeah um but he's a hilarious person yeah um this is these are all of the same ilk by the way the um i mean the boss thing is very similar to avoiding confrontation being a boss is oh yeah all confrontation yeah you're right like where is it yeah i told you you have to even explain it seems absolutely like i'm paying you to show up and do a thing you're like nowadays especially like my god this is

imperialist but it's like yes yeah it's imperialist i'm paying you i you know but the other thing that happens in the in the world that i you know live in is the people that I've worked with, I've worked with for a really, really long time. And like my assistant, for example, there are times where I'm practically certain he doesn't know he works for me. The relationship has been a little bit skewed. He knows you're not going to do anything. Yeah, more than likely. That's the other thing. When you get to know anybody, they're a big old pain to do anything. Yeah, more than likely. That's the other thing.

When you get to know anybody, they're a big old pain in the ass. Yeah. Everybody, there's negatives and positives. And the positives of the people that you remain friends with or you remain working with, the positives outweigh the negatives. And the same going the other way. I assume that my negatives have not yet built up to the degree where, you know, when after, you know, the stay-at-home order hit, and I can't remember how many weeks we, you know, survived where I was still paying my employees. And I don't have a huge amount of employees. I have a couple.

But after a few weeks went by and I have no income, you know, my accountants are like, you know what? You're not going to be able to do that. I still required the help of an assistant, but I could not pay because I didn't have, you know, I would split what I had, but there wasn't enough income coming in that, right? So, one day I tell, and then also I have

a woman that takes care of my pets when I'm gone. And, you know, I didn't want her to leave because then when I do start back on the road, you know, it's a huge job. I, you know, get 10 cats, two big dogs. You can't just drop some food and then come back later. So, so, you know, one day I have to say to them, I can't, I can't, I have to let you go. I can't pay anymore. I just, I just don't have any money. How do you feel? Ashamed? Oh my God. I started to let you go. I can't pay anymore. I just don't have any money.

How did you feel? Ashamed? Oh, my God. I started to cry. Yeah. And, you know, it got real quiet in my backyard because that's where we were at the time. You were at your lectern? You were standing at your lectern in the backyard?

I was not at my lectern. I was in my backyard. I think I was hanging laundry on my laundry hanger thing. And I don't think we talked about it anymore in that moment. But eventually, maybe the next day or something, Wendell comes to me and he says, he says, look, if you go down, I go down. And he wouldn't leave so you know it didn't work on the same schedule he didn't come in necessarily every day but uh they both stayed um and you know with the

ppp money i you know gave it yeah gave it to them but that was not enough you could that's not enough to live for very long around here. Yeah. Right? So they both stayed. So I must have been a good enough boss. To stay. Yeah.

And he's been with me for 25 years. I don't think that when you say you're not a good boss, I know what you mean. The reason I'm not a good boss is because I can't tell anybody what to do. Have you tried? I've gotten better at it. As I'm sitting here, I was like, maybe if you made lists, which is a good one for yourself i can't tell anybody what to do i i've gotten better at it as i'm sitting here i was like maybe if you made lists which is a good oh i do i leave a lot of notes huh yeah and it's still and you still can't well you know sometimes you know you know if you have an employee right and they're uh you know the window's like a you know girl friday to some degree you know there's a pretty eclectic bunch of stuff that,

there's some stuff that has to get done on a regular basis, and generally speaking it does, but then there's a bunch of other sort of eclectic stuff that comes up. And I'm forever, you know, writing a note and leaving it for him. I do the majority of my work at night, you know, when I'm alone, where, you know, I'm getting organized, I'm doing paperwork, and I realize, oh, this has to get done. So I write these notes, and they're always worded very politely.

And I put them on his desk. And then I'll notice later that, boy, that's still there, isn't it? But if you have a certain amount of stuff that you have to get done, and then your boss keeps saying, and then this, and then this, and then that, well, you have to cherry pick what you can get done. So there's going to be some stuff, just like like what I do that gets put off for a while. There's going to be some stuff that he puts off for a while. Fair enough.

So, but if there was something like I, I'm just not, you know, the thing of going, hey, didn't I ask you to do the blah, blah, blah? I can almost never do that. Yeah. It's hard. blah blah blah i can almost never do that yeah it's hard because you seem like to your next one your next block is if i don't hear back from somebody and i don't know why i scour my memory of our last interaction to find out what i did or said wrong convinced that i put that person off oh yeah it's all this is all the same rumination family yeah yeah not helpful either by the way for the most part because i'll send you a song that i made about this called no one nobody's mad at you oh my god it's so short

it's one of the most popular links i've ever put on social media wow it's very simple i will send it to you because it's so good to remember nobody's mad at you nobody's mad at you. Nobody's mad at you. You're having a private experience. Nobody's mad at you. Nobody's mad at you. Nobody really gives a fuck. Melanie did a song. I don't remember the name of it, but one of the lines was,

I built and climbed a mountain and it wasn't there. And that is great for so many things, you'd think. And have you gotten better at this or no? I think a little bit. Yeah. I think a little bit. We had these neighbors, and I don't know, it was within the first couple of years that I lived in the house that I live in.

We had these neighbors that I just felt like, you know, if I bump into them in the alley, they just sort of. Maybe I never even was that close. I just felt like they looked at me funny. And I was convinced that I knew why. And it was because this about me. It's because that about me. And one day I hear from another neighbor who I knew, because these neighbors I didn't know. I just moved there a little while ago. But I had some other neighbors that I actually knew. And

they tell me that the wife died. And the next time I heard this neighbor in the alley, I went out and I said, I just heard about your wife and I am so, so sorry. And I said, and I want to apologize because I have been the worst neighbor. What I didn't say to him is, all this time, I thought you didn't like me. It never occurred to me. Once I heard the wife died, I'm like, oh my gosh, she did look kind of ghostly pale, didn't she? And once I realized it had nothing to do with me, and why do I do that? It's so annoying. And by the way, ever since then, we've been friends. All that time, wasted energy, wasted thought, and couldn't they have used a hand?

Of course. Yeah. What do you consider the biggest successes of your life and the biggest failures of your life? My oldest daughter has cerebral palsy. Mm-hmm. And she walks with no crutches. And I barked the orders, but she did the work, right? And a lot of times,

well, in fact, pretty much all the time, she didn't want to. And it's one of those decisions that you make. Maybe I was right, maybe I was wrong. I don't know. And she can read. And she loves to read. Both of these things are especially rare. The way things were going with the school and with the place that I fostered her out of, those would not have happened. And I don't know, you know, she'll maybe at some point in her life feel like she doesn't care about those things. Or maybe she already thinks that. I don't know.

I haven't asked. But those were, I feel like, I mean, i didn't give those things to her um as i say she i barked the orders and she did the work i think without me barking the orders i just think there was a window you know this runs counter to your nature nurture thing yeah well again i say she's the strongest person i've ever known but but it sound like you nurtured a lot of her. I forced the issue. Now, again, she may look back and feel like, well, you know, why did I have to do exercises? Why did I have to do this?

Why did I have to do that? I would have just been as happy in a wheelchair. She might well feel that. She maybe feels that already. I don't know. Or, you know, I will say about reading, she loves to read. So, and the school, there's no way that school was teaching her to read. And it was, you know, I made her read aloud to me every night all the way through

high school. And against a good deal of resistance. And was there another way to do it? Not that I can think of. And so... That's a big success in your mind. Yeah, in my mind it is. And maybe I'm giving myself more credit for it than it's due. I just don't know. Yeah.

You know? You can't control the variables and do it again. So I don't know. Yeah. You know? You can't control the variables and do it again. So I don't know. But I'm glad of that, you know? Something you're proud of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I am.

And it's interesting because there are things about her that have really changed a lot. Whereas she used to want everybody to do stuff for her. That was sort of her game. And I was always having to, you know, like catch people doing stuff for her and tell them not to. And I was always yelling at her about it, you know, pretending to be less than she is. I just wouldn't tolerate that. Whether I was right or wrong. I have no idea, but that was the, that's, that's, those were the coordinates with which I set my sails and that's

what I did. And, uh, uh, and she's so not like that now. Yeah. So great. Yeah. I hope so. I mean, I hope so. And any failures? Oh, tons. Everything else. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.