Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Simon Rich

Episode Date: August 1, 2024

Neal Brennan interviews Simon Rich ('Man Seeking Woman,' 'SNL,' 'Glory Days' + other books) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 1:40 Not on Social Media 7:37 Writing at SNL 12:37 Childhood 17:48 Harvard 24:41 Anxiety 32:00 Workaholism 41:19 Fear of Mobs 54:40 Small ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi everybody, it's Neil Brennan. It's the Blocks Podcast. My guest today, I just called him the last living American comedy writer. The last 20 years, you're probably more familiar with his work than you realize. Long time SNL writer, seven years? Four.

Four, but it was powerful. Did a show called Man Seeking Woman on FX, and then you did another show on TBS with Steve Buscemi and Daniel Radcliffe about God and I don't remember the name of it. All good, Miracle Workers. Miracle Workers. And he's got several books,

the latest of which is called Glory Days, coming out July 23rd and his name is Simon Rich. Say hello. Hello, thanks. Hi, yes. Thank you for having me. Yes, good to have you. I met you 20 years ago. You were in college.

You'd written, you were about to get a book published. This is 2005, I think. Yeah. And you were about to get a book published. And I think, I don't know why, I think, I don't know. I was like, yeah, he's funny. And I was like, yeah, just be funny.

I don't fucking know. And then you ended up writing for SNL and you wrote with Mulaney and Marika Sawyer a lot, right? But we talked before this about, you don't do much press. And by the way, he's 40, if you're watching this, he's 40. So imagine how he looked when he was 20. You don't do much press, and I'm curious as to your, like you're one of the people,

when I say you're like the last living comedy writers, like you're not especially interested in fame. Like even David Sedaris is more interested in fame than you are. Right, well, I'm not on social media. That's sort of the big one, is I'm one of the first people to reject social media because I was classmates

with Mark Zuckerberg at Harvard. What did you guys think of him? I didn't know him personally. Okay. But I knew about Facebook or the Facebook when it was launched. You know, my roommate was I think maybe the 10th or 12th person to sign up for this new service

that started across the campus. Did you go to school with Jared Kushner? He's a little older than me. Cause I remember I've heard someone said his reputation in college was he was craven and amoral. It was like, that's a pretty great college rep. That feels like redundant if you're describing a Harvard undergraduate.

I mean, but yeah, this thing Facebook started, and it was just watching a friend suddenly try crack and their life. Your roommate. Yeah, and he was like, oh, this is not a drug that anyone should try, and I felt like really, I'm like. One of those things where you'd get back to your room and he'd be on it, and you'd be like,

what the heck are you doing? He'd be like, oh, his life has completely changed. All he cares about is this. From the earliest iteration of the Facebook. Yeah, from moment one, it's like, oh, I had this friend who was a normal, happy, well-adjusted person. They've become addicted to this very scary thing.

I should never try this. And what a sad coincidence that I happen to be roommates with this like weird, unique addict. And then you look out the window like a zombie movie and you're like, oh, it's spreading to everybody. And I thought surely- It was, you were roommates with patient zero. Exactly.

And I thought surely they'll ban this. You know, the teachers and we'll get together with the administrators. I remember 9-11, I thought they're not gonna show this footage much. Right. I didn't think they were gonna show the planes much on television.

I was like, oh, I was very wrong about that. Yes. And that's a fairly conscious decision. Like, oh, this is bad. As crazy as it is to say, it was way less moral in the early days. It was the hot or not thing, right? Or that was after that.

There was, it basically was a tool for stalking when it was first invented. And so it would tell you the last- I'm picturing Mark Zuckerberg on stage, and being like, it's a tool for stalking. Thank you. It would tell you which campus computer the person had last signed in on.

Jesus. So you had the Kushners of the world, you know, just looking up people and seeing, oh, she's at Science Center B, let's go. So it had a really like a weaponized antagonistic vibe to it. It wasn't the Facebook that like our moms are all on today. That was much more hostile and intense. That's wild.

Yeah. Agree. And then what do you, and then tell me you're one of the few people that's not interested in one of the few people in America who's not interested in being famous. Yeah. Why? What am I missing?

Right, well it's two things. The one thing is just I made the decision really early on to not do the social media thing. Because I was frankly frightened of it. Frightened of how much time it would consume and I just didn't want to go anywhere near it. And the other thing is I just never thought that I would be a successful, famous person.

Because as a writer of fiction, I write short stories and novels for TV and film. The most important thing to do is to have a protagonist that is like, rootable and likable and sympathetic. And I just never saw myself, like I'm self-aware enough to know that I myself was never going to be, like, a compelling protagonist for people. I would much rather write protagonists

that the audience would. Is it because you know yourself too well? Because you seem like a nice, moral guy. You know what I mean? Like, you don't, you're the father of two, happily married. But my protagonists are way more sympathetic. Got it. It's like, I can't compete with like a, you know,

like a sweet talking bear in the forest too. You know, like I can always come up with a character that's way more appealing. Yeah, the trick is you make yourself seem like the sweet talking bear. And that's the thing I can never do, is the lying part. I actually, yeah, I just, I would rather make up a fictional world than lie about my own.

Yeah, you're too ethical. It's just hard, it's hard for me to pull it off. I'm also a bad liar in person. Yeah, that's interesting, and it is, you see the spoils of it, right? You have many famous friends and it's like, you see the spoils of fame and money and wealth and access and status and you're still like, no.

There are advantages to though. I mean, for example, like- There's advantages to anonymity. Absolutely, as a writer, I mean, there really are. I mean, you say anonymity. That's what you're saying. Absolutely, as a writer, I mean, there really are. I mean, you're less branded. You have, there are a number of like film, I mean, many of the film and TV projects that I've worked on that like your listeners

would know about don't have my name on it. Meaning you did punch up? Or story work or any number of things. Will you tell us or no? No, they make you sign things. Oh, got it, got it, got it. Yeah, and that kind of anonymity actually can be, like it can widen the scope of what you're allowed to do.

Oh, that's interesting. Like you do darker things than I would think. Oh yeah. It's ominous, oh yeah. Okay, so you've been a professional comedy writer for 20 years since I met you. You were a senior at Harvard, published a book, you were writing for the Lampoon,

then you got hired at SNL. What did you think was happening? I always loved writing because it was like a refuge for me, a refuge from anxiety. Yeah, that's true. his first block is anxiety. Anxiety, yeah. Which is not a shocker problem. No.

But it was like this, with writing, I could kind of go into my room and just be completely, totally in control of what I was writing. And so it was like my safe activity. And then I got hired at SNL and I thought, well, this is gonna be great for my anxiety. Cause I could write all the time.

Cause I'll be a professional writer. Right. But it turned out. But you're writing, you're writing about 24 hours the rest of the time. It turned out that it was not, it did not relieve my anxiety. You made a lot of producing and talk.

Whenever I'm at SNL, I'm like, I cannot believe the amount of socializing they have to do. It's unbelievable. It's like un-fucking-barrel and like complimenting sketches, I like that move and you're just like, what are you, so odd to me.

I mean, it's just what it is, it's just like a cocktail party kind of. Well, the first half of the week is like bliss because you're just like ensconced in your tiny room with your favorite writers to write with and your cast to write with and you're writing whatever you want. You have total freedom.

No one comes in and says like, you've got to write about, you know, ex-political issue. You can do anything. So, and then- Who did you, you wrote with Malaney, Merica and Bill? Malaney and Merica a lot.

Wrote with Bill a lot. Anything, like what are your most known sketches? Our most known sketches, I mean, probably What's That Name. Hello and welcome to What's That Name. The rules are simple. We show you a person, you tell us their name. That's a great sketch. Which is when we just went full tilt

and made Bill Hader's game show host an actual psychopath, which we had been drifting there for years. Bill would play. You finally just named Bill what he had. Because we had, when we, the default when I got to SNL was game show hosts were still kind of in the Phil Hartman game show host mold. They were oily and sleazy and cheesy.

Certainly like they lacked humanity, but they weren't like active antagonists. And what's funny is when I think of that sketch, I don't think of Bill. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I think the premise of the sketch, which is we all interact with so many people and there are people whose names you should know that you don't know. Totally. I'm one of your closest friends. Hey, Todd. And I've been his girlfriend for four years. What's my name? Hey, great to see you.

I guess thinking about it, Bill is goading the contestants. Yeah, he's the antagonist, right? He's the one who is twisting the knife. Yes, you just don't consider her a human being. What kind of horrible game show is this? It's What's That Name? I don't know if you ascribe whose idea it was,

but was that the point of the sketch? No, but it became the point of the sketch. Yeah, because it very quickly morphed from like a premise driven sketch into a character sketch because we realized that Bill is the devil essentially. Actually Satan. He's not wrong. No, he's not wrong.

That's what makes him so dangerous. It's just, he's being rude. Yeah. He's cornering people. We had a whole backstory for Bill's game show character, which is that he was independently wealthy and funded the game show himself, just to torture people. Great.

You ever read The Magic Christian? Of course. One of the best pure comedy books ever. Terry Southern. Like just a great premise. Yeah, very similar. Very well executed. Very similar to what's that name, yeah.

It's a guy who's a billionaire and just used to fuck with people. Yeah. And I still think so much to make it. They've tried a million times. They actually did make it, it was bad. Oh, did they? Yeah.

Terry Southern, did you know, wrote for Saturday Night Live? I did know that. For one season. I did a Terry Southern deep dive back when you were, back before I met you. Yeah. Okay, so wrote with Bill, wrote with Malini,

wrote with Marika, and how did that affect your anxiety? Well, writing with them was a blast. Right, yeah. It was thrilling. I was like, I have company that people are right with, but then I got- And it must have been fun to have kindred spirits when you meet kindred spirits that,

and they weren't Harvard lampoon people. Totally, absolutely. It must have been like, oh great, you guys aren't, Malini, you only went to Georgetown. You dummies. Bunch of civilians. But it must have been like very heartening and exciting. It was thrilling.

Yeah, it's like this, it really feels like a miracle. I mean, not everybody, not to generalize, but many people get into professional comedy writing and have had unusual childhoods. And so SNL, when it was at its most fun, it felt like there is this support group, this friend group that I've always wanted. And then you get into- Did you come, are you from a tricky childhood? No, that's why I'm nervous about this show because it's called Blocks. I'm not trying to like unearth your family.

Yeah, no it's fine. I'm just more curious. No, I've come from an extremely privileged. Privilege I don't care about, but I'm wondering like, your dad was just like a journalist, right? It wasn't like, blue blood, was it blue bloody? No, he was a theater critic. But he was the theater critic. Right, but I'm saying like that,

theater critic sounds like a job where you make millions of dollars and you're paid in rubies or something. And you're just like, I wrote for New York Magazine. Like it wasn't like, I don't know. I would assume he didn't make that much money. No, I mean, not compared to, but I bet I went to very fancy prep schools.

Okay. So I went to the high school that Gossip Girl is based on. Beautiful. Yeah, so- What's Waldron? Dalton. Dalton, got it.

Yeah, Waldron's better though. Like if we were in a TV writer's room, we would punch up Dalton to Waldron. Fantastic. And did you like the kids? Did you feel like you, did you figure it out? I had a sort of strange, should we get into it?

Should we get into the whole thing? The thing that I don't like the term, this thing about privilege and all that shit, it seems like it's an intentional plan from you. You're like, I shall go to the, they just go go to the school and you go, okay, I'm gonna go to the school. And then later on you find out that they were all oil bear,

whatever, it's never this premeditated hostile thing of like, I shall be a leader of, because you're a fucking comedy writer. Right. Like, so anyway, what did you think of that world? What did I think of it? There were like multiple worlds within the school, because there was one world that was literally

the richest people in America. Yep. So they had their own sort of bubble, they had houses in the Hamptons, and I had sort of a front row seat to like watch what that was. But that was, they lived in the kind of, they took different classes than we did.

Did they really? Yeah. And they- In the same building? Yeah, they had these sort of easier classes that were designed to allow children of affluence to continue. At Harvard, they have something called the Z-List. Do you know what the Z-List is?

No, I have no idea. I can't wait to hear it. Pretty sure Kushner was a Z-List kid. So the Z-List is- Donors' kids? Yes. Yeah, to get on the Z-List, I mean, I think you need to donate like particle accelerators.

It's not like- You have to donate equipment. It's not just money. Yeah, it's, yeah. Promises, you know. donate like particle accelerators. It's not like. You have to donate equipment. Yeah. It's yeah, promises, you know, ambassadorships. Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, pardons. But the Z list is like you have a student

who is so academically inept that no amount. No tutor can help. No tutor, no study drug, no recommendation from a Senator can mask the fact that this is a dumb- This person does not belong here. This is a dumb person. Yes.

And to let them in would be just too disgusting, even by the standards of Harvard. It gives nepotism. It makes nepotism blush. Exactly. This is too much. This is a bridge too far. Guys, come on. Yeah, you picture it's like a guy in a full robe

and a white wig and a tower at Harvard just looking at Kushner's transcript. And it's just like, I cannot stomach this. I don't know, work with me on this. Yeah. Yeah, meet me halfway. Exactly, so the halfway is called the Z-list. And what they do is they concoct a fake volunteer project

that lasts a year, that is the front, the cover, to justify their admission. So as typical Z-list kid, they're a little bit older than you, they have a last name that you've heard of because it matches one of the buildings that you maybe live in or the scholarship maybe that you're on.

And they have a great tan because they've spent a year in a Southern hemisphere in a location. And- Fake helping people. And they've been building like wells and you're like, oh. And do they get class credit?

No, but they write like an essay or somebody writes an essay for them about like, here's what I learned building these wells. And that tricks, I don't know who it's designed to trick. I think it might be designed to trick the child themselves. God damn it. That they belong. It's like that bat kid thing.

Remember that kid, the term, Leo Bat. And they were like, you're bat. That's what celebrity is, and that's what fame and wealth are. That's what class is, that's what wealth is. It's see, you're a bat kid. Everyone is like, you're a bat kid. And you're like, oh, I guess I am.

I am great. I thought I was great. Yeah. So I knew a lot of kids like that. So does that, this is not in any way emotional, this is more ideological. How cynical does seeing that make you? Oh, wow.

Because you also saw, you also dealt with incredibly intelligent people. Like Mike Schur, who went to Harvard, Lampoon. Mike Schur's and created Parks and Rec, good play, like fucking crusher of a writer. I once played Words with Friends with him and he did two words I'd never heard of. So there are people that like,

some of it's an appetism and like fucking rich kid, privilege, and some kids just have incredible brains. When you graduate from Harvard and they give you a diploma, there's this slip with those two words in it. And they're like, if you ever, if you're ever in a situation. Yeah, you really need to put the hammer down. Yes, well, what's interesting.

So yeah, how cynical does it make you? What's it make you think of the world? Well, it doesn't match the world at all because you know that you're in this sort of alien landscape that has no correlation with society. Because another thing about Harvard is the smartest people there are often the poorest people you've ever met in your life.

Yes, that's what I mean. So you're meeting super brains and then you're meeting, and what's the breakdown roughly? It changes every year. I'm not sure exactly what it is now, but you never see either pole because the extremely poor kids are literal geniuses who are there

because they've maybe cured a disease or invented a robot that the military had to buy before it could be used against them. They're actually the smartest people on earth. So you don't see them unless you're one of them. Because they're just in labs or something. They're in a laboratory, literally trying to cure cancer. Yeah.

Actively like solving. Not doing a great job, by the way. Yeah, yeah, seriously, like clock's ticking guys. Come on. Yeah. And then the sort of Z-list kids belong to these things called final clubs, which are, or finals clubs, I don't even remember,

which are secret societies, and they literally have these plush like club houses that you're not allowed into. All right, well here's the simple question, who's running the world? Meaning what's, because I don't really believe in the Bilderbergs and I don't really believe in conspiracy theories,

even knowing about fucking finals clubs and all that stuff, because they're dumb. So they can't, they might be devious, but they're not intelligent. So I guess I'm like, who's in charge of the earth? Mark Zuckerberg. Okay, which one is he? He's neither.

He was neither at, he's the- And I'm not literally, was he in a final score, but was he in a lab? Right. Which is he closer to? Because he's pretty sharp dude. I mean, he created a frankenstein's monster. He's somewhere in the middle, right?

I mean, he had a similar background, I would imagine, as me and many Lampoon writers did, which is to say, went to a good high school and probably wasn't considered a genius by the standards of Harvard, but was certainly considered smart. And yeah, he picked the right interest in the right field. Yeah.

But he is the most powerful person by far from my generation. Oh, of course. Not even close. Yeah, but so what he, having sort of grown up in this and not necessarily of it, but sort of not, you weren't like a scholarship kid, what do you think? Like, you know what I mean?

You know what I'm getting at? Like what, because I wanna dispel, I'm always trying to dispel conspiracies. And it's like, it's just greed. Right. So do you think he had a devious plan? Oh, do I think Zuckerberg had a devious? Or anyone, any of these people.

It's like. Yeah, right. Is there like an actual like true, like secret oligarchy at the top and. For lack of a better term, yeah. I would say there is, but it's not as well organized as people think it is. There aren't like secret handshakes and hats

and like private caves and tunnels. It's just sort of like, we'll help each other. Yeah, it's just kind of like a loose affinity that very powerful people have. He's one of us. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a famous thing, I forget where I saw this, but it was like a test to join the CIA or whatever the proto-CIA

was, like in the early days of government intelligence. And it was like, they were trying to recruit the best and the brightest. And it was 20 questions. And this would have been early Cold War or maybe even earlier. And the first seven questions required you to know super advanced trigonometry. There was a question about how to diffuse bombs. There were four questions that made sure, of course, that you have perfect mastery of Russian and French.

Then question 17 is, when you're playing golf at the Montclair Club and you're on the ninth hole, which putter ought you to use it? And if you don't know the answer to that, you're dead, instant fail. Because at the end of the day, you're going to have to blend in to among powerful people and you don't wanna be the guy with a sand wedge or whatever. God damn it, that's interesting.

Another one like that is there was a scholarship which I don't know if it exists anymore but there are all of these scholarships you could win at Harvard which were mostly like well-intentioned, philanthropic things to help geniuses do their work. So if you were like. Dirty geniuses. Yeah.

Scrubby geniuses do their work. So if you were like. Dirty geniuses. Yeah. Scrubby geniuses. So you're a brilliant person and you might be awarded a grant to study in Oxford or whatever and continue your pursuit of some medical cure. And there was one that was just given for years to the most popular rich kid. And I forget what it was called, but it was just like an all expense paid apartment in, I believe, Berlin and a stipend to throw parties.

And the idea behind it was it's probably a good idea for the future of mankind for like the powerful people in this country to have like old drinking friends with our rival nations. Yeah, and then I go. And you're like, maybe that's a good idea. Because I, yeah, where my head goes is like, we're of the same ilk and I would probably give you a benefit of some doubt. Sure.

You know what I mean? Just cause like, I know where he's from. I met him when he was a kid. Yeah. Like mutual friends, like, and there's nothing especially evil about it. It's just human nature. It is human nature.

Tell me, so how did the anxiety, how did the, how's the anxiety in your body? For starters, as a Jew, I think you wanna be, you want anxiety. You had a little swivel. You want that. I mean, it's sort of synonymous. Yeah, I mean, like you,

you wanna be the Jew in 1932. It was like, maybe it's in my head, but this seems like- Is it me? Yeah, you don't wanna be the Jew in 1932 who's like, you know, honey, relax. I said that recently. All of the open-minded settlers got arrows in their heart. Exactly.

So you need to be, it still pays to be suspicious. It used to really pay. Exactly, yeah. So I'm 99 point, according to 23andMe, I'm 99.6% Ashkenazi Jew and 0.4% Neanderthal, which means that I'm anxious in my body all the time and then like once a month my body is like, you should get a steak, you should eat like a steakhouse.

And then you have indigestion. And I was really sick. Yeah, and then I was like, what was that? I am a Jew. Yeah, exactly. And do you, indigestion. The Jew comes back and you're like, oh, I am a Jew. Yeah, exactly. And do you, everyone you know, every family, everybody's just a little anxious. Yeah, all the time.

Is it neuroses or is it like in your body nerves? I would say I'm neurotic and I define neuroses as, and I'm getting better with it, but having a feeling about a feeling. Yeah. Judging my, questioning my feeling, like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have much anxiety in my body that I'm aware of.

I think I have a lot of anxiety in my body, in my face, in my, you know, my shoulders. And I think that's probably as much a part of it as like the racing thoughts. Yeah. And you would it as the racing thoughts. And you would say you have racing thoughts? For sure, but I don't when I'm writing. Here's what I'll say about your writing, though.

It is a racing thought. Right. Your writing especially is so organized and so primacy. Right. And so like, run it again. Let me see if I can like what is the I Mean it's I hate to say you monitor. I mean you monetized it or you professionalized your Anxiety. Yeah, that was the plan all along that was like truly my plan as a child because I had this like I mean

It would be like if you were addicted to Fast food as a child and you're like, I love fast food. Like I love eating fast food. I grow up, I'm gonna be, I'll be a professional fast food taster. And people are like, that's not a job. And it's not healthy. But that's what happened to me.

Like I basically ended up, as you said, like monetizing my primary coping mechanism. And did you, what was your mother's job? She was a book editor. Okay, so you had access to that path. It wasn't like, I've got this pipe dream of being a- No, it was totally normalized. My father was a theater critic,

so he wrote thousands of words a week, as an electric typewriter, and my mother edited non-fiction books. So even though I went into a different sort of writing, in that I wrote fiction, and I wrote for TV shows and movies, it was a completely normal thing to say, I'm gonna be a person who sits at a desk

and writes words all day. That was totally normal. Who were you, is your talent more your mom or your dad? Or is it like a nice combo? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I think in terms of like comedy, the person who was really funny was my mother's mother,

my grandmother, and she had just a really bleak existential sense of humor and sort of a classic, like all is lost. Was she the Neanderthal or was she also a Jew? That's a good question. I think she was full Jew. She was full Jew. Yeah, it's funny because both of those jobs

are analytical in some ways. Right. Like editor and critic. They're not creative jobs. They're assessing the success of creative work or editing a book and making it more efficient. And a lot of being a comedy writer and comedian is pattern recognition.

Right. And which I would say you're excellent at. Thank you. Yeah, like you you're excellent at. Thank you. Yeah, like you're very, like you're really good at, like where you, I mean, every piece of the New Yorker is just a pattern recognized and like, you know, sort of sent through the processor and. Yeah.

But yeah, that's it. So you think it could be from either one of them? I think so, yeah. Okay, all right. So what have you done about the anxiety? Well, so yeah, the big thing I did was write a lot. When did you start writing like every day? Or have you? Every single day,

the summer after senior year of high school. That's like the one I really was like, I'm gonna do this professionally now, you know. So you'd gotten into Harvard. Right. You were hoping to get in the lampoon. Right. And then you, every day you wrote what?

That summer I wrote a really bad novel, which I never showed to anybody. I was writing, I wrote a number of like entire books at that period of my life that are like unpublishably bad. And then there were sort of imitations of my favorite. Yeah. Writers, a lot of people I think go through this where you start off by just copying your heroes.

And talk yourself into it not being a copy. Yeah, it's different because the character has a completely different name. Yeah. The font is different. Yeah, so. It's like, what are you talking about? Get off my case, yeah.

Relax. When did you start what are you talking about? Get off my case, yeah. Relax. When did you start hatching your own premises? Sophomore year of college is really when I kind of started to, right in a way that felt sort of like, this is mine. This is not just me like half remembering a kids in the hall sketch and forgetting that, you know, or like ripping off a short story by TC Boyle or whatever.

This is like, I think I actually wrote this one. I started to sort of feel that sophomore year. And then- Can you describe the feeling of that? Yeah. Because I'm picturing in my own experience of it where it's, you're almost a little lightheaded. Yeah.

Where you're like, what is, this doesn't remind me of anything and it's its own thing. Yeah, it's thrilling. I mean, I remember sophomore year, I would sometimes spend like two or three hours frantically Googling every permutation of like a comedy piece I had written just to make sure. Yeah.

Cause I was like, I think this is good and I really scared that it's plagiarized, which is a reason, partly just like that window into my anxiety, but also there was rationality to that impulse because at that point in my career, so much of what I had been written had been plagiarized. If you have a tendency to borrow, which you just will.

You will as a young writer, always. So yeah, I remember feeling really excited by like junior year of college or senior year of college. I don't need to Google that because I know that that one's mine. Yeah, and in a similar vein, you have workaholism. Yes. As a, you monetize your anxiety.

Right. You're writing four to six hours a day. And then I get hired less and less. How do you find the, right, but how do you find the difference between you alone in a room and you in a room with seven people that you need to interact with?

I don't mind, other writers I love. I didn't say, I didn't say writers. I said people. That's a tough one. Right. Yeah, that's harder. Yeah, so what's that like? Is it just a little panicky or is it just dread?

Both. But at SNL, it was the worst one, I wrote something by myself because I couldn't hide and I would have to talk to all the department heads and all the intimidating people and navigate the sort of social bureaucratic waters. Talking to the hosts, I absolutely hated having to do that so much. But when I wrote with Marika and Malaney,

I would pretty much just hide after the writing part was done. To the best of my ability, I mean, sometimes Seth would be like I mean, like sometimes like Seth would be like, Simon, like, you know. You're still here? Where have you been? Like props, you know, needs to know like which props

put on TV, I'd be like, oh, right, right, right. Yeah, they're good ones. I was in the bathroom again, you know. There was- You know me, I am Jewish. Yeah, exactly. I shouldn't have had that another cheese sandwich. I don't know. You know me, I am Jewish. Yeah, exactly.

I shouldn't have had that, another cheese sandwich. I don't know. Um, I, uh, there was, there was, um, some failed sports show, uh, that had an abandoned, like derelict set that was on the eighth floor. Uh-huh. Um, and I think in, in the area where, where Seth's show now is.

So, so before, before Seth had his show there, it was like, um, like a ruin. An old haunted. An old haunted. An old haunted ruin of like, you know, some failed nightly sports show. And I would go there and only I knew how to, it felt like only I knew how to get there. So funny.

And I would go through this like tunnel of like old, you know, boxes of late 90s baseball information. And I would sit at the old like anchors chair and I would just like- And you would be overcome. Just like grip the table. Just grip the sports broadcaster. And I would be like, okay, you're not a writer for SNL.

You are the host for a late 90s, a late 90s I guess baseball game show. You were once very athletic. Yeah right, and I would just make this is, and I would sort of decompress. I would also sometimes take the elevator to random floors in 30 Rock and just kind of, they were all abandoned, you know, on Saturday.

Yeah. Because that's, most people don't work then. So I would just go like to the 35th floor and just kind of, they were all abandoned, you know, on Saturday. Yeah. Because that's, most people don't work then. So I would just go like to the 35th floor and I would just like walk out of the elevator and just like sit in like a long hallway. My phone, meanwhile, is like, would you think I'm being weird?

Yeah. Would you think this is weird? Or would you just go, I have to do, I'm irrevocably drawn to this? Well, I also thought it would be better for the sketch. That's the other thing. If you stayed away from it. If I just got to stay as far away

from the production as possible. Yeah, when it was pencils down and there was no more writing to be done, that's when I just wanted to be anywhere else. Who would pick up the slack? Would Merrick and Mulaney would do my work for me. I mean, that's fine. They would do it all.

I mean, you know what I mean? Mulaney would talk to the host. Yeah. Merrick would talk to the costumes and sets and I would be on the 35th floor. Yeah, that's fine. Sitting very still in the middle of the long carpet. Just like, yeah.

I'm fine with that. Yeah. And did you, how do you deal with it now? Uh, well, I, I sort of. Cause you've had TV shows. I know I learned how to do it. And it's one of those things, which I never, cause, cause sometimes I'm writing sketches alone.

Sometimes I'm sometimes in a situation where I do need to produce the sketches myself. Um, but they're whole TV shows. So. Well, yeah, that came later. Okay. Yeah, so, but by the end of SNL, I had like begrudgingly learned the basics of how to produce TV.

But like kicking and screaming. And what I was really doing when I was at SNL to deal with my anxiety is I was writing. For the show or just generally? Great. So my solution to, yeah, it's like, to use the fast food analogy again. It's like, okay, you're a child who is addicted

to fast food. You tell everybody, you know, someday I'm gonna be a professional fast food taster. They're like, that's never gonna happen. Then it happens. But it requires you to eat fast food like 14 hours a day. And then on Tuesday, you have to stay up all night eating fast food while like a very drunk celebrity

like yells at you sometimes after like a dinner with Lauren Martelson. And you're like, this is really stressful. I know what I'll do to cope with it. On Sundays and my summer's off and week's off, I will eat more fast food than And my summer's off and week's off. Don't say more fast food. I will eat more fast food than anyone has ever seen in their lives.

So I actually wrote more, when I was at SNL, I wrote more hours, not for the show, than for the show. Well, it was what became the books? Entire books, yeah. I mean, when I was at, in the four years that I was at SNL, I wrote three books that were published and at least two more that were too bad to publish. Plus like, you know, articles.

And do you consider yourself. Who's insane? Not my best work, by the way. You don't think so? No. Well, do you consider yourself very inspired or is it, it's a coping mechanism, fine. But if you don't have premises, there's nothing,

like so as a fellow writer, I'm like, first of all, there's far more destructive things to do. Google Malaney. There's far more destructive things to do with your free time and you're very inspired. Are you inspired by, are you excavating or is it fairly involuntary? The ideas.

Well, I'm not consciously saying to myself. I mean, the stories that I write are very, they're emotional. I'm not consciously saying to myself, I mean, the stories that I write are very, they're emotional. They're about emotional experiences that I've had. The characters in the story are often grappling with something that is a metaphor for something that I have recently experienced, right? And it's that process that you encourage within yourself?

No. Or it's just you're getting a fight with your girlfriend and then you end up with a version of man seeking woman? Exactly, yeah. It just happens organically. Okay. Yeah. I really do sit down and I'm like, I'm gonna write something about vampires today.

Great. Truly. Like I'm gonna write about robots. I'm gonna write about a monkey. And then- And when you end up in- And then by the end of the story, you're like, oh, this is very similar to- It's not robots.

This is very similar to- Something I'm going through. Yeah, something I'm literally going through right now. What a coincidence, it happened again. But I don't sit down and I'm like, well, what's a good metaphor through which to examine grief? But yeah, it does not take, even someone as tightly wound as me by the end of a story. You don't, I gotta say, you don't seem that tightly wound.

You seem maybe introverted, but not even that introverted. There are much more introverted writers. You're not, it's not like picking, like, you know, pulling teeth with you. I appreciate it. No, it's not, it really isn't. It's not, you're personable, you're engaging. It's not like, I've never, this whole time I haven't thought

this kid might be autistic. That's amazing. Yeah, like I really don't think that. That's a huge compliment. It's maybe the nicest, and you look your age, and you're not, that's the nicest two things anyone can say about you. Like for real though, you don't seem, you're not, it's the nicest two things anyone can say about you. Like for real though, you don't seem, you're not,

it's not uneasy. Great. Yeah. Is it, from your point of view, what's it like? Like this interview right now? Yes, but more like what your experience is with interacting with people. It's actually, it's okay, it's fine. Like I'm not agoraphobic.

So what's the anxiety? I'm fine with pitches. So what's the anxiety? Where's the anxiety come up? The anxiety is kind of just a constant like pulse in my brain that it's not really related to social interaction. The thing I was stressed out about at SNL was not, it was a little bit talking to people and talking to experienced crew members

who rightfully hated my sketch or whatever. It was a little bit that, of course. It was a little bit, you know, holy shit, that's Paul McCartney. I'm afraid of Paul McCartney. It was a little bit of what you would expect. But most of it was- He was in wings.

Yeah, he was in fucking wings. Yeah, most of it was like, I don't have any control over whether or not people are gonna like my sketch. Yeah. Oh, oh. It was fear of the mob. So was it like a weird guilt fear thing?

It was just like fear of failure. You have a fear of mobs here. Yeah. Social media mobs. Mobs in general, but yes. Now the question is. Yeah, I'm terrified of that crowd. What crowd? The SNL, you know, when they would walk in. Oh, the 300 people or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. But they're all just like excited teenage girls. At dress they're excited. They excited teenage daughters of executives. Yes. And at air they're even more excited tourists from Chicago. Yeah. Yeah.

And they're excited. They're excited. They're excited. They're excited. daughters of executives. And at Air, they're even more excited tourists from Chicago, yeah. So they're harmless. Try telling that to me. But it didn't make a difference. And were they, did you see them as discerning? Or you just didn't want to bomb?

Fear of bombing was, I mean. I will say as a comedian, writing a sketch, producing it for three days, mounting it, and unveiling it to an audience is pretty laborious. It's a laborious way to eat shit. Yeah. Right, if you're gonna eat shit. Just say it.

Just scoop it out of the toilet. Don't spend three days delicately slicing the shit. Yes, seasoning it, yes. Putting it in a little. Getting it just right. Yeah, right, like the bear. And then you're just like, okay. And it was bouche, yeah.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I understand. And it is, I guess it's expensive. If you're gonna write a sketch that eats shit and it costs 70 grand. Right. With in wood and paint. Sure. And cost.

Yeah. Was it... Did you ever picture them going like, there he is! Like, how bad would the nightmare scenario be? Well, I still have the nightmare scenario in my nightmares. Like, I still have the literal SNL nightmare. Do you have?

I don't know if you've ever heard this. I've worked at SNL three weeks in my entire life. Yeah. Pretty much since the early 2000, before Chameleon Show, every night I've had a stress stream about Saturday Night Live. I'm not kidding. Wait, really? Like four or five nights a week,

it will be, I'm at kidding. Like I have four or five nights a week. It will be, I'm at SNL. I'm either on the eighth floor, 17th floor. I'm somewhere with Seth, Wig, Bill, Will Ferrell. Lauren's pretty much every dream I have is Lauren's mad at me. Same. Usually it's he wants, usually Lauren's mad at me. Same. Usually it's he wants, usually he's mad at me because- And by the way, Lauren has, I think likes me.

I barely know him, we've gotten along. He doesn't get mad very often. He's a very even keel person. Yeah, it's usually Lauren is mad and also I'm supposed to be on camera or I was supposed to go on camera and do something and I forgot. So in my nightmares, I'm often being thrust

onto the SNL stage. And sometimes I- Did you ever do like a Q&A in the monologue? Did you ever do like in an audience member? They would use me as an extra sometime because I was so unusual looking. So I would often play like, you know, the kid or the cashier, when they needed like a teenage extra,

they would use me. Save money. Right. Using an adult, yeah. Exactly, those were very frightening experiences. I mean, whenever I had to be like in the extra, like in the background of a sketch, it felt very similar to,

I don't really have like a big fear of heights, but it felt like standing on the edge of like a 300 foot tall cliff with like wind. Yeah. Just like being told like, okay, like, we're not even gonna pay you the $173 that an expert gets. Yeah. But what you do as a favor for three minutes,

just like stand on the mouth of this cliff. And don't you have to say anything or do anything, just sort of stay there for three and a half minutes. Seth wrote this mouth of a cliff. Yeah, right. Yeah, they need a person to stand on it. And there's gonna be like screaming whims. Coming by you.

I mean, you're not wrong. Yeah. The difference is some of us like it. Like, meaning like, I don't not get nervous when I do a standup. Right. I get nervous every time. Yeah.

But I like, there's a, I said something to a friend of mine where if you have suicidal thoughts and they go, did you make a plan? Did you make a suicidal plan? And I go, yeah, I decided to do standup. There's something suicidal about it where you just go, I don't really care. Like I'm terrified, but the reward is worth it.

And for you, there's no reward. Right, I mean, it is ironic that for somebody with a fear of mobs that I went into an industry in which my- Trying to cult, like try to- In which my success is directly tied to my ability to appease those mobs. Seduce a mob, yeah.

Yeah, right, but from afar at least. Yeah. And through actors and through pieces of paper. Surrogates. Yeah, there's this distance and through fictional characters. Yeah. You know, so many of my short stories are written in the first person.

So they're from the from the point of view of a character that sounds nothing like me. You know, is your beef with yourself that you're average or that you're wretched? What do you think? I mean, what's the mob going, what's their charge against you? Well, I think boring would be high on the list. I mean, you know, like I don't think there's anything interesting. I, I, I wouldn't want to read a story about myself. I wouldn't want to, like I, I,

but you like, again, but I guess what I'm getting at is Seinfeld has an observation of like comedians with low self-esteem and he's like, oh yeah, and you're charging people to hear you talk. So with you, it's like, you must think there's something redeeming about yourself if you're willing to publish books and sell them. Well, yeah, I love, I mean, I'm very proud of it.

Not your part of it, not just like you wanna do this, you, I'm not your part of it. Yeah, yeah. Not just like you want to do this. Yeah. You must think you have merit in some way. Well, I'm proud of the stories, but it's a separate thing. It's as a writer of fiction, it's like you're not asking the person to get on board.

It's a weird, I know it's like- No, no, no, I know what you mean. It's like you're not asking the person to get on board with you, you're asking them to get on board with your main character who probably, or at least if you're me, is nothing like you and is way more interesting and exciting and fun to hear from.

You know, I mean, like my audio book for Glory Days is very graciously read by Mulaney. Great. That's a much better way, I think, for people to encounter my work than, for example, me reading it. So it's, I've long, even in high school, even when I was in high school and writing like plays and like sketches, I would put my friends in it.

I wouldn't be in them because I knew they would do a better job. So you see it as like, which is a true and relatable thing. It's like, it's not even, you serve the idea. You're a it as like, which is a true and relatable thing. It's like, it's not even, you serve the idea. You're a vessel for the idea. Totally, yeah, yeah.

I would never, yeah, like, okay, I guess I could write a, I could write a memoir from the perspective of like a 40 year old borderline charming Jewish comedy writer, you know, or I could write like a story from the perspective of Paul Revere's horse. Like I'd much rather do. All right, here's a very broad question.

I'd much rather do the latter. What do you think makes a likable person? Person? Yeah, or character. They're different things. I feel like they're- Okay, let me get more specific. What do you think is the,

your best idea for a thing to make a character likeable? Well, it's just a- Cause like all over his horse, I like him already. I know, well, he's an underdog. Yeah, he's like being ridden around. He's kind of a hero. That story is- Works late, et cetera.

That story is basically he and Paul are friends. He speaks or it's telepathic? He's telling the story, it's unclear how he's communicating with Paul. One of many withheld details that you'll find in my story, but he's friends with Paul and it's his memoir, so you kind of have to take everything that this horse is saying with a grain of salt.

But he, and Paul, they make this plan to tell people that the British are coming, and they sort of will go in on this idea together, I'll ride there, you know, cause I'm a horse, you'll be on my back, and then you'll, because you can speak, you'll say, you know, the British'm a horse. You'll be on my back. And then you'll, because you can speak, you'll say, you know, the British are coming to sort of 50-50 partnership.

Yeah, it wouldn't be good for him. This be the first night he speaks, the horse speaks. That'd be strange. Exactly. It's too much at once. Yeah, so we'll just. Hat on a hat. Totally, so we'll do this thing together.

And they do it. And then Paul Revere kind of gets all the credit. Yeah. The horse is sort of forgotten. Yeah. And so it's this very bitter, like celebrity bitchy memoir from the horse. Just kind of describing how Paul changed.

But you know what I'm asking? The thing of like, what do you think makes a... Obviously horses is almost, is too obvious. Sure. But there are. Not too obvious for me. No. But I'm saying, what do you think makes a character,

what are your favorite things that you've done that make a character likable? Well. This is an odd question, but I can get on with it. There's a few things, I'll tell you all my tricks. Great. The first thing is I like it when a character is extremely stupid or naive or misinformed.

Okay, but earnest. Very deeply earnest, deeply convinced of whatever it is they think they know. Yeah, that's why I write so often from the perspective of people who can't even speak English fluently. It's often, I have a story called Unprotected, which is about a teenage boy trying to lose his virginity. And it's told entirely from the perspective

of the condom in his wallet, which is waiting for years and years and years and years to be used. Yeah, great. And the condom is not particularly articulate because he's the piece of polyurethane. Yeah, sure. And so I love to write about, I love to write from the perspective of characters

that know less than the reader. I just think that readers have a sympathy for people that are dumber than they are. I watched a fair amount of Man Seeking Woman. Yeah. sympathy for people that are dumber than they are. So- I watched a fair amount of Man Seeking Woman. Yeah. Jay's, Jay Baruchel's character,

I don't remember what you did to make him, there's a thing in screenwriting called like save the cat, which is like in the first 10 pages, have the protagonist like do something benevolent, like save a cat from a tree. Sure. Right? Yeah.

I'm trying to remember what you did with Bearishel. Well, in the very first episode, his ex-girlfriend dumps him, and then he finds out that she's dating this older rich guy, and he's really like, really upset, especially when he meets him and finds out that it's literally Adolf Hitler,

who is 137 years old, played perfectly by Bill Hader. And Maya Erskine is his ex-girlfriend, and she introduces him to Adolf. And Jay, you know, meets Bill in his motorized wheelchair. Hi. Adolf. Hitler.

Josh Greenberg. Greenberg? Yes. Uh-oh! It just doesn't really like this Hitler guy and thinks it's weird they're dating and all of his friends are- That weirdly does make Jay likable. Yeah.

And all his friends are just like, you just don't like him because he's dating Maggie. And also like, this is like his party and he paid for all those food. And so maybe just relax. And so with him having to apologize after an uncouth outburst, he has to apologize to Hitler. Hitler of course is so deaf because he's, you know, the oldest man alive that he has to repeat his apology much louder

and then louder a third time. Great. So by the end of that episode. Relatable humiliation or isolation. Yeah, absolutely. And then I would say, but yeah, if you wanna get into the boring mechanics of, if that's, basically you just need the character

to really want something and you need the audience or readers to want the character to get it. What do you think makes a person in life likeable? Oh, that could be any number of things. And I like a lot of people that I would say would make terrible protagonists. Yeah. Well, yeah, so you have more of a-

I like people who I think you might classify as antagonists. Yeah, well that's what I mean. Like there's something satisfying about our friend, the asshole. I love it. And like, oh, we that's what I mean. Like there's something satisfying about like our friend and the asshole. I love it. And like oh we're gonna do asshole now. It's great yeah but you won't find them narrating my stories. Great look for them on the street. One of your blocks is that you're 40 years old and you've been the, you're generally the smallest. Yes.

I think physical ability or is an underrated liability. Meaning, meaning it's like women always talk about how they're smaller than, and it's like, I'm 150 pounds. I'm not walking around. You're, you're less than 150 pounds. You're not walking around, you're less than 150 pounds. You're not walking around dominating situations and how it affects you.

Yes, it was a much more extreme thing when I was growing up. I think this is where my fear of mobs comes from. Huh? Is basically, because I was- Adults are terrifying when you're a kid, by the way. And then when you're a little, when you're a small kid, even more so.

Yes. So I went to the same school for many years so that it wasn't really, being by far the smallest kid in my grade was not really a day-to-day issue because everybody was used to me. Right. And they knew what I looked like

and it was always a surprise coming back from summer that everybody had grown even more, you know? Not me. But so that was always like surprise coming back from summer that everybody had grown even more. Not me. But so that was always like a tough day. But other than that, it was- Who's small? Is your mom small? Both sides of the family are extremely small.

Got it. Yeah, runs on both sides. I've many women in my family who are sub five foot. Yeah. Yeah, but I was small even by the standards of my family, I was tested for dwarfism. They x-rayed my bones and you know, and they told me like, it's gonna be fine.

You're gonna someday. And they called you dwarf the whole time, right? In the doctors. Dwarf, walk over here, dwarf. Yeah, right, they had a carnival barker out front and it's like, this is for a pediatrician. This is a bit much. This is not professional, yeah.

But it was fun. I just feel like a good nice music. Yeah, you is for a pediatrician. This is a bit much. This is not professional, yeah. But it was fun. I just had a good, nice music. Met some cool carnival people. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and what did that inform? Well, so yeah, so it didn't affect my day to day, but it was a big deal whenever I encountered new kids. So if our school, for example,

had to play another school in sports, or if there was like a dance, God forbid, in middle school with like another school, or the first day of a new Hebrew school or camp was always, I mean basically like a full PT Barnum situation where like when people saw me, it was like, it was an absolute circus like atmosphere. Cause I was like four, four, I looked like four to six years younger than everybody. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, and yeah, like a, like an MC, like a ringmaster would, would like emerge typically,

usually like a tall like laugh. Like look at him. Look at him. And then a crowd would gather and they would always like bring forth like their own short kid to see, like to measure us back to back to see who was shorter. And I would always be shorter even than their champion. And me and the other, you know,

short kid would kind of like exchange like a weary, you know, like it's a living, you know? And so those are bad days. And so that sort of punctuated my childhood. It's not my day to- Were you verbally funny back then? Yes. Yeah.

So you could like- But there wasn't time when you're like- No, yeah, it's all happened coming at you. When it's like a three ring circus, you don't have time to be like, hey, do you guys, you know what would be really funny if When it's like a three ring circus, you don't have time to be like, hey, do you guys, you know what would be really funny if like in school lunches, if instead,

you know, can't really get into your material. You're like too busy being like measured by a ringmaster. And so as a result from an early age, I really feared and disliked crowds. And I think I was like probably all, probably like you and every other comedy writer from our generation hugely obsessed with The Simpsons. My favorite character on The Simpsons

was not an individual character. It was the collective character of the mob, which made me laugh so hard. And it's the mob, the crowd of, the Springfield mob on Simpsons is depicted as even stupider than horror. Yeah, I think correctly so. The dumbest character on the show.

I always feel like groundskeeper, what's his name, and the guy from the bar would be like the featured speakers in the mob. Well, yeah, and Moe is often- Yeah, Moe was like toward the front. Yeah, right, exactly. Shouting the most inane thing you've ever heard and everybody screams and breaks glass over their head.

And also like, yeah, and Moe is a character who is on The Simpsons, while of course, dumb in many ways, as all characters on that show are, you wouldn't call him necessarily the dumb one. I mean, Homer is the dumb one. But when Moe is inside that mob, he becomes consumed by idiocy. And anyone who is part of the mob walking with them,

their IQ just automatically drops like 75 points. So that's all, when I think about like a crowd of people, I think of the Springfield mob, and I think of like the being like physically measured on the first day of every camp. I think like, and that's why I don't do the, it's another reason why I stay away from social media and the internet is I'm like, that is the mob.

And if I start doing posts or whatever. And it doesn't matter when something goes in that direction, there's nothing you can say. Yes. Once it was literally nothing, they'll just take it as a challenge. Oh yeah. And they'll beat you and they'll be wrong. They'll be dead wrong.

It doesn't matter. And we'll get support from people. you and they'll be wrong. They'll be dead wrong. It doesn't matter. And we'll get support from people. Yes, you cannot reason with the Springfield mob. And that's when I think of the internet, I think of the Springfield mob. I, you're absolutely right. I got mobbed on the internet about the movie,

Parasite. Cause I said, by the way, the rich people aren't the parasite. And I got mobbed, because it basically became like, you rich person thinks they're not. I'm like, so anyone who, and it was like one of the last things I ever did on the internet,

because it was so stupid. And by the way, the director of the movie, writer director, was like, both sides are parasites. That's a double meaning. Right. But I would argue with him. Sure. Because all they're doing, they were decent bosses.

So am I a parasite for going to Starbucks? I'm just consuming. Yeah. Am I a parasite for going to Starbucks? I'm just consuming. I'm like, so if I, unless I start a coffee farm and brew my own, pick my own beans, brew my own coffee, I'm a parasite. It doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make any sense. Parasites are leeching off of a thing,

a thing that doesn't want them. Whereas I'm just a consumer. Again, it's not over, it's five years. I'm afraid to talk to you about it because I've heard that this is an internet thing and I wanna stay away from it. Yeah, no, you're right to stay away. You're right to stay away.

You've told me this is like, I'm like, oh, this is. You can see it getting out of hand. If I say anything, you've told me that this is an internet mob related thing. Yes, I better stay in the car. I'm like, I'm not gonna answer. Don't even engage. Yeah.

Don't, yeah, don't be like me. Um, the, yeah, you're not wrong. The fact that you saw Facebook, the Facebook. Yeah. Is like, I find it historically like riveting. I would be a totally- Because it's a weird version of the social network. Yes.

Like it's a weird version of the movie, which I actually didn't, the movie I have a problem with. But like- Yeah, it's like the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of like, I'm like a minor peripheral character in the drama of the social network, which is playing out like literally next to me, physically next to me. And I'm in the corner watching this social network, which is playing out like literally next to me, physically next to me.

And I'm in the corner watching this and I'm like, I don't wanna get mixed up in this shit. But I do think my life would have been very different if I had made the decision to be on social media. I think I would have written a lot fewer books. I mean, I've written 10 books. I think I would be lucky if I had had time to write like three or four. If I had spent the number of-

Because you'd be busy posting and coming up with premises. Just like truly the number of hours that it takes to be funny online. Yeah. It's a lot of, I know a lot of people who do it. It's consuming, yeah. It's a lot of hours.

And so I think I would, and so I, and I also don't think that my books were very good until about like the fifth or sixth book. Why? Because I hadn't practiced writing enough. Interesting. You know, cause I was still learning like how to do it. And what was it premise, weak premises

or weak execution? Story. Yeah. Story. And so I feel like- Premise or? No, the premises were always- You just think you didn't do them right. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I did them right for a while.

And so if I had been on social media and I was still on book three, I maybe never would have written any books that I was proud of. Yeah. And so like, I'm very grateful at the same time, maybe people would know about the books. So that's sort of, that's kind of,

I often think of like the sliding doors, like what would my life be like if I had gone the sort of social media, internet quips route? I would have fewer books, but they wouldn't be as good. But your advances will be bigger. Right, more people will read them. More sales. Yes, it would be a different life.

Yeah. Instead I've written like 10 more obscure books. Yeah. And I'm really excited about them, but I've made this sort of deal where, you know, very few people know about them. I mean, again, you could say you're 24, no one would question it.

You could just change your name. Go on social media tomorrow. Yeah, change your name. You could, half your shit would be great tweets anyway. Yeah, just say, pretend that I'm coming up with it now. Yeah, no one's gonna, if you think anyone's gonna look it up, you think anyone's gonna do it,

you're fucking out. You really overestimate people. Go to their local library. Yeah, yes. Okay, let's see. And now you're, how long have you been married? Since 2015. And how do you like, how long you been with your wife?

We met in college, split up, got back together. Great. One of those, yeah. Great. And how do you like it? It's great, it's fantastic. One of those, yeah. Great. And how do you like it? It's great. It's fantastic. She's a writer too. Her name's Kathleen Hale,

and she writes incredibly violent true crime non-fiction, which is absolutely thrilling to read. She wrote a book called Slenderman, which was a finalist for the Edgar Prize. And it's about those three 12 year olds in, those two 12 year olds in Wisconsin that stabbed that other 12 year old to serve Slender Man, the internet demon. It's an amazing book.

Is that lucrative for her? I mean, by the standards of Hollywood, I mean, you know. But I'm saying like, it seems like that's a good business to be in. It's, yeah, it's great. I mean, it's incredible for anyone to get paid to write. Yeah. For, to write paper books, to write for paper magazines.

I mean, it's, Kathleen and I both feel like super lucky. Like she writes for Vanity Fair. I write for The New Yorker, paper magazines that people physically hold in their hands. There are very few magazines left. Do you know the circulation of The New Yorker? Is it down significantly on paper? So it's over a million, but under two million. I think it's low millions.

Vanity Fair is a little bit higher, but only slightly. We're talking paper. Paper. Got it. And digital is what? I have to tell a story. I hope I don't get in trouble for this. Please. So this is a story I was told to me

by somebody who works at the New Yorker. And I hope I don't get in trouble with Conda N Nast for real. It's so funny though, I have to tell it to you. So he was visiting a, he's on the business side. He's visiting a call center, and the Condé Nast call center, and it's sort of the hub for all customer service.

Right, and the Condé Nast magazines would be New Yorker, Vanity Fair. Vogue, a few others. Yeah. Anyway, so whenever somebody calls with an issue, like their magazine arrived late or it arrived wet, you rectify the issue. And then part of the script is then you say,

while you're on, can I ask you to subscribe for another year? Yeah. That's just part of the call center script. Said he was there for four calls, all of them New Yorker subscribers, each time they said no, and the reason they gave was always the same,

which is, I think by next year I'll be dead. So that's to say the subscription base is a little bit rocky right now. Yeah, it's up against, it's a race against the clock. It's not what I would call a growth industry, yeah. Yeah, and what do you, do you have a parental ethos? I think just open-mindedness, yeah.

What's your goal for them? Because I've just been, I'm dealing with a kid and it's interesting to think about it in a way I've never thought about it, which is like, what am I going for here? What are we trying to encourage? My goal is to not have a goal. My goal is to be decent, of course,

and try to teach them how to read and shit. But basically to not write a script for them to, because I'm such a goal oriented person. I've always been like a very like regimented and focused and I have like my goals, some of them stupid, but they're still goals. And I like very determined not to treat my children as if they were like projects or books. Like I don't want to treat my children as if they were like projects or books.

Yeah. You know, like I don't wanna treat my kids like they're books. Where I'm like, I'm excited. I'm gonna spend years on this and it's going to turn out a certain way. And here's what people are gonna think of it. And here's how I want people to react to it.

Well, what do you, okay. I'm with you. What's the, do you have any goal for them? What do you think is the, it's the same question of like what makes a likable person? What is a, what makes a successful human project? I want them to be confident, self-aware, and kind,

polite, polite, basically. Comfortable in a mob? Near a mob? Agnostic about that. I mean, you know. Yeah. If it really makes them happy to lead a mob, if that's what it is,

if they're just like, they feel that brick in their hands. I got a mob, yeah. They're like, this is what I was meant to be. I would be like startled, but I would say, you know what? Like, I will come and I will hold a broken bottle behind you and we'll, you know, we'll burn down that religious structure together, whatever it is. It was great talking to you, man.

Great talking to you. Thanks for having me. Great, great shit. Thanks. Thank you. Everybody wants to have it, wants to have it red, my man All you have to do is open, open up your hand, my man