Boonta Vista - EPISODE 82: Parasocial Activity (Featuring Shannon Strucci)

Episode Date: January 21, 2019

Andrew, Ben and Theo are joined by filmmaker and video essayist Shannon Strucci to discuss FAKE FRIENDS, her series about parasocial relationships from pop stars and YouTubers to anime characters and cardboard cutouts. Find Shannon on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/plentyofalcoves Watch her essays on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/struccimovies If you enjoy her work please consider supporting her at: http://patreon.com/struccimovies *** Support our show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Merchandise available at: boontavista.com/merchandise *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Buntavista. You have just walked into a large kitchen and who should you see there but me, Andrew standing behind a counter I'm noodling around. Over there is Ben. there is Ben, hi Ben. Ben's fumbling about with some some spaghetti trying to get out of the packet. It's all fallen on the floor. He's trying to pretend like he didn't see it. We all saw it. Over here is Theo covered in flour. Hey, that is my natural state in the kitchen. It's actually true. Yeah, and here's me, cracking open a big egg and what's inside the egg. It's not the yolk you're expecting. It's knowledge.

God knowledge and discourse. And we're serving up a big batch of it today. We also have a guest with us all the way from the United States. We have video essayists and pop culture commentator, Shannon Strucci. Hello, I'm in the kitchen too. I don't know what I'm doing. He's awkwardly perched on a stool in the corner. I'm sitting like, oh, I'm excited.

I don't know what's happening. Wondering what we're cooking with dried pasta, one egg and a lot of flour. It's the makings of a great meal, a feast. A classic spaghetti pizza. Oh dear. How many you subject our guests to this? This is normally reserved just for us. Well, somebody...

A listener wrote in and said, what happened? What happened to your, um, what happens are your rambling scenarios? You're beginning of episode. Who is this visitor? Name them. Yes. Yeah, it's right. I'll dig it up so that you can personally accost them.

I will. I will. I just don't feel like anyone has ever spoken fondly about a phenomenon that they described the word rambling. So Shannon is on YouTube at Strucci Movies and Shannon makes video essays about a variety of I guess like cinema and media and pop culture related stuff? Is it fair? Yes.

Absolutely. There are movie reviews, various things like that. But what we thought we might talk to Shannon about today is an essay that you did sort of in the second half of last year, which was the second installment of your fake friends series, fake friends episode two, Parasusial Hell, which was on Polygon's 2018 Best of video essays list. It was just saw, just saw very recently, which was cool. And I assume it's been receiving a claim in other areas

too. I've certainly seen it mentioned around the place. So I guess just to kick us off, do you want to give us like your capsule definition of a parasocial relationship? Sure, a parasocial relationship is a one-way relationship. It comes from this study, or not really a study, but this paper that was published in 1956, and they said parasocial as opposed to orthoso-social. So it's like a one-way relationship with like a fictional character, or a celebrity, or any number of things. It's an illusion of a friendship or a relationship when in reality the person on

the other side of it either has no idea that you exist or doesn't exist. So just a relationship that is in no way, shape or form being reciprocated by the other party, whether that is a celebrity or a cardboard cut out. Oh, I just realized that there is of course the whole body pillow aspect. I didn't even think of that. Oh yeah, I don't think I mentioned those in the video. There's just so much to talk about. Like you said, there's so many different ways. Of course we would recommend that if you would like to get a a more to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get a more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more to get to get to get to get a more more more more more more to get to get a more sort to get a more sort to get a more sort to get a more to get a more to get a more sort to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the their their their their their their their their their thoe.oea.oea.oea.oea.ea.ea. Ia. Ia. I just just. I just. I just. I just. I just. I just. I just just just. I just just many, there's so many different ways. Of course we

would recommend that if you would like to get a more sort of fleshed out version of that definition that you should definitely watch fake friends part one first which is a 20-minute piece that more sort of outlines those origins of the term and all of those kind of original academic studies that I suppose formed the basis of where you jumped off to from there, is that correct? Mm-hmm. Although that the original piece was more about like early television presenters because they were the first people to really capitalize on it or actually like there was a woman I think her name was Kate Smith who

an American woman during World War II who did like war drives and she really culti of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their thus thus thus thus their their thus thus thus thus thus thus thus their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their you their you their you their you their you their you their you their you their you their you jumped their you jumped their you jumped thus. thus. thus. the the the. the. theauu. teau. tea. thea. theauu. theau. thea. thea. their their think her name was Kate Smith who an American woman during World War II who did like Warbond drives and she really cultivated a parasocial relationship with our audience but a lot of that was set in the 50s so I took I mean a lot of people have taken that and applied that to the internet. There are a ton more studies that I want to cover in the third episode but I took it and specifically applied it to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like let let let let to like let let let let to like let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let let's the the the the the the the the to like like like applied it to like let's players and anime stuff and sort of how through different cultures in the past like 10 years it's become this like huge, to me like disease, this like huge problem that's making people miserable. Yeah, it's very interesting to watch that evolution from the stuff that you're talking about in the 50s and 60s from like you know television presenters and radio presenters sort of moving away from the more formal manner of speaking to a large audience to just starting to speak to people the way that they would

actually be listening to the material which is in like as single people or small groups in a home which is the reality of how most people would listen to they would actually be listening to the material, which is in like, as single people or small groups in a home, which is the reality of how most people would listen to the radio, as opposed to in like a large formal audience, and started to become more intimate and personal. But yeah, as you said, as soon as you get into the world of, of like, YouTubes and streaming and all that sort of things, suddenly, there's this th a thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th....................................... And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi, thi. And, thi. And, thin, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th.. Suddenly there's this two-way street that opens up that immediately completely changes. Completely changes the entire thing. Do you remember anything?

Was there like any specific piece of content or a creator or anything that made you think, I want to really go a lot further into this? Um, it was, there's someone that I know who told me they were cutting back on their parasocial relationships, like certain YouTube channels that they watched, including some that I really liked, and some where I knew the people who run the channel. And I was like, what is this parasocial thing? And then I was like, oh, this is really weird. And I think a lot of it was because I know people who do like podcasting or YouTube

and how insane fans can be, and also how just psychologically taxing it can be to feel the need to maintain your audience emotionally. I wanted to research research to research to research to research to research the to research the to research the need to maintain your audience emotionally. I wanted to research that more. And then some of the papers I read on it were just horrifying. There's one I'm going to cover later about developing intelligent characters for children, like something like Dora the Explorer or like Elmo, but the child thinks it's real and they want the child to confide in it. And it was like the creepiest thing I had ever read and just the potential

for these relationships to be exploited and for people to be manipulated. And no one else was really talking about it, especially in the video essay sphere. Because I mean academics have talked about it but I had not, it was not a term I was familiar with and I have a degree in like video production, film studies kind of stuff. I was like, why haven't I haven't I have? Why haven't, you know? I felt like it was something worth talking about. So with the issue of like children developing these inappropriate relationships, what were they, what were those relationships sort of looking like? Because I'm not, Andrew probably has a better idea of what this, what this looks like, but I have not seen like kids videos on YouTube that much recently or

dealt with you know these these Elmo toys or what have you like so what do those what do those look like and what do the relationships start to look like that that kids build with these well that was a specific it was like a proposed idea of having a character that ages up with children specifically to to the child to the child would up with children, specifically to keep the child attached to it, so the child would literally confide in it, to get information from the child, and it was like for educational purposes.

I know that like children's YouTube is a nightmare for different reasons, because it's just like unintelligible garbage with a lot of weird sexual aspects to it. And I'm very happy about it. But you're right, it is this weird fever dream of just cookie-cutted kind of nightmare fuel that makes no sense. It is. It's a bizarre thing, but it's that it's its own phenomenon on its own sort of thing.

But because it kind of reminds me a lot of this other thing that you mentioned in the second video where, they, they, they were they were, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the kind of reminds me a lot of this other thing that you mentioned in the second video where they, you were talking about parasocial relationships with appropriately this weird seal robot. I love the seal. I want to be friends with the seal so much. I love parro. I like parro actually. This cute, horrifying little white white hell robot that responds to your touch and learns how to please you.

Learns how to please you. Once to extract your paths. And how to serve you. And and and there was just one one sort of line in there where, and I'm not sure if it was in relationship to Paro or just in general, the concept of care or robots where they were seeing vulnerable elderly people form the wrong bonds with these companions and learning the wrong cues. And I kind of thought, that sort of applies, like, that would apply to the try learning the wrong cues. And I kind of thought, that sort of applies,

that would apply across the entire spectrum, right? From children to elderly, to people that socially may be vulnerable. Is that like the case that you saw across the spectrum? That's even mentioned in that first piece. I mean, they don't use the best language in it, but it's something about people who are isolated, or they use the word like invalid. I think they mean like people who are disabled or people who are.

And I think a lot of people who have responded to my video to, like people who are agoraphobic, or people who are on the autism spectrum or I guess people who are older, just anyone who there is some kind of impediment to them forming what you would call like a normal relationship with people, whether it's their fault or not, or whether they're, you know, and some people are just awful people who nobody wants to be friends with, and I think I get comments from people like that too who are just like mad. But there are other people who it's easier, it's easier for anyone to just watch a YouTube video or hold a stuffed animal than actually go out and put themselves out there and make actual relationships. I do think there's the element of our society is a lot more stratified. People are very alienated and desperate for a community because a lot of traditional community has been kind of phased out and people are more atomized and like I said alienated and stuff so they're

turning to like they can watch a streamer or they can play a video game or whatever. I mean there are fewer physical villages these days where you'd go and you'd interact with a lot of people so all those villages are sort of like online now where you go to hang out in these circles. And there's stuff like muk-bong videos are really popular where someone just sits there and eats on camera. They're called they're they came from Korea they're called muk-bang M-U-K-K-B-A-N-G and it's just someone eating and you feel like you're less alone when you're watching them eat in a stream. Our people will binge eat and do YouTube videos. And you want to muckbying.

Yeah, there's like the whole subsection of Twitch that is like people eating, isn't it? Like just eating and I don't think, I mean there's, I'm sure there's some of it that has some weird like sexual aspect, but I think it's someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone... it's someone's lonely and they want to eat it feel like they're eating with someone so little put find a Twitter that they like that does the muk-bong videos and that's pretty sad I don't know um I don't think that's like awful but oh man I'm just looking at the Wikipedia article and just this phrase tickling me so much foods foods foods the entire spectrum of food oh my bedroom of food. Oh my goodness.

That's what we're making in the kitchen. Yeah, pizza and noodles. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I've found it interesting that there was a lot of, you featured a lot of Bo Burnham clips throughout and like it took me a little bit to sort of make the connection while I was watching because I'm mainly familiar with Bo Burnham from his like one hour stand-up specials so you know like by by the point

where he is a very established comedian but I guess what sort of didn't click with me until a reasonable part of the way through is that he, you know, he obviously makes a lot of statements where he is very, very critical of this type of relationship. He thinks it's very unhealthy and toxic for both the artist and the creator. You know, he thinks it really sort of, it really sort of pollutes and unhealthily influences the creator's output and that there obviously should be some kind of division between the two, between the creator and the audience. But yeah, it took me quite a while to have it sort of click in my head.

Oh yeah, Bow Burnham got big from doing YouTube videos, didn't he? Like he's been around. Yeah, he's been around for like, you know, over sort of 10 years of starting off doing that kind of stuff and obviously he's been able to parlay that into, you know, touring and doing stand-up and recording specials and now directing movies. Like I thought it was really interesting as well in the context of his movie that has come out recently, eighth grade, or like at some point last year. Because a lot of the sort of reception to that was that it was a very, very honest portrayal of just, you know, having a hard time as an eighth

grader but not in a sort of exploitative way, I suppose. I thought that was a very, very interesting sort of way to, interesting light to cast his output as an artist now in, considering seeing all of that sort of stuff where he clearly really thinks that the way a lot of this sort of stuff is done is just purely corporate exploitation of young people and their needs emotionally. I think it's funny also that while he's he's still fostering parasocial relationships but now he's aware of it like quite clearly even in his stand-up he like he calls it out. But he's still out there and it's still there and it's still, it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, and it's, and it, and it's, and it's just, and it's just, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it's just, and it's still, and it's still, and it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's aware of it like quite clearly he even in his

stand-up he like he calls it out but he's still out there and it's still it's still occurring and that's sort of like the the irony I think of being of being self-aware about it as well that he's still I guess impressioning on on all of all of these people it's like how many layers of parasocial relationship are you on right now like a little baby? I think what's what's different and interesting about him though is that a lot of the stuff that he says during his specials and some of the songs is I interpreted as like a very clear attempt to acknowledge that sort of stuff and to then like make his

own attempts to set boundaries. Like he says a lot of things that are like very explicitly like I am not your friend, I'm not the person who's going to solve some problem in your life for you, I'm not a substitute for a real relationship. Like, it seems like the kind of thing that, you know, it could obviously potentially be alienating to an audience, but he clearly feels, you know, so discomforted by that type of relationship that he feels the need to actually attempt to set some kind of boundary with his audience. And, and, you know, you don't really have a lot of material from other people making statements about that sort of stuff that is that, I guess, that stark, Shannon. So I'm sort of forced to assume that he's one of the few people kind of acknowledging

and pushing back on that kind of stuff in that sort of way. Even other artists like, you know, you have a bit where the singer of the Decembrists is talking about one of their songs and, you know, kind of in part acknowledging their own intrinsic relationship with their fans. But even then I feel like a lot of artists still feel that they have to couch what they're saying in these terms of like we're grateful, we appreciate that you know we can do this

because of our fans and we're very thankful for that and that they have to sort of couch it in these terms of like appreciation for having an audience even if there are aspects of it to make them uncomfortable. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they have they have they have they have they have they have they have have have have have have have have have have have have have have have they they have have have have have have they they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th. I th. I th. I th. I the the the the. to have to to to to to to to to to to to to to have to te of like appreciation for having an audience even if there are aspects of it to make them uncomfortable whereas Bo Burnham seems much more like you saying like nope I just don't like this stuff. Which it yeah it's a difficult and scary thing to do or at least it was for me because you can find such a comfort and people telling you that like oh you're a good person or I love your videos mean so much to me and I just to to to them them them to to them th th to th th to th th th to th to th th th th the the the the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the them the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. the. the. the. theeeeeeeeeeat. to to to to to to theeeea. theeeeeeeeeeeee. their their their their to th at least it was for me because you can find such a comfort and people telling you that like oh you're a good person or I love your videos mean so

much to me and I just really want to support you and the people don't like when you're like you don't know if I'm a good person you have no idea what I'm like in real life and you need to acknowledge that and stop sending me these messages I know like even stuff thi. I'm like th a th a th a thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus the the thus the the the the the thus. the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. the. things. things means means means means means means things. things. things. things means means means means th. the. the. thean. the. the. the. th like or inappropriate. There's still and assumed intimacy And I'm a video essayist. I'm not like a comedian or like an actor and I I talk about some personal stuff my videos But I try to keep boundaries and some stuff I keep very very private and people still do this stuff with me Even after I've made the parasocial videos people still send me weird messages or or are overly familiar. They'll send me weird messages about them. I was watching your video on parasocial relationships and I just thought like, oh, we've known each other our whole life. I watched you talk for two hours about a topic and now we're best friends and I learned

nothing from anything you've ever said on the internet. Yeah, because it affects, I mean it affects you th, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, they're they'll they'll the, they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll, they'll they'll they'll, they'll they'll they'll, they'll, they'll they'll they'll they'll, they'll they'll, they'll they'll they'll they'll, they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll their their, feel feel, feel, feel, feel, feel their their their they feel feel they feel feel they feel feel their their they feel feel feel like, feel they'll send me they'll send me they'll feel, feel, feel like, they from anything you've ever said on the internet. Yeah, because it affects, I mean, it affects you, that kind of sometimes beautiful connection you can have with a fan. If you've helped them or their response has helped you, you're kind of sacrificing some of that and you're sacrificing your money. I'm sure I would have way more Patreon money if I put my face on camera more, if I was friendlier, if I was more open, you know, and I don't, that just makes me feel really uncomfortable and weird. I don't think it's bad when other people do that, like other video essays talking to the camera and that's fine, but I feel like, oh, that's weird. I'm not looking into anyone's eyes.

I'm not making eye contact with never do like a vlog. It's weird. Yeah and that's I guess you know a whole separate kind of content now and something that like something that you know people like are friends over at Chappo Traphouse when they have talked about like you know the real proliferation of like right wing and weird race science YouTube and how now it's it's really easy for people to essentially like radicalize themselves to a cause of you know being an MRA or or just being a weird right-winger because you can sit and you can watch a four-hour long video of like Jordan Peterson staring straight into your eyes as he honkingly weeps about the te- you can sit and you can watch a four-hour long video of like Jordan Peterson

staring straight into your eyes as he honkingly weeps about about whatever it is that he's talking about. And you can watch father you have your dad, you have your dad. Exactly. And it's not just I mean in the case of... Big wet eyes. Well in the case of your material in the case of your material, you know, like you said, there are like small flashes of where you, you know, insert some personal connection or something that has had an impact on you on a personal basis, but you're also like, like you said, it's not you staring into the camera and saying, this is about me.

There's obviously a clear division and the whole time you sort of mainly, you know, I would say like 99% of the time you are into splicing it with the material that you are talking about and showing extended cuts of the material that you're talking about. And I think that that goes a really, really long way to helping a viewer, or even forcing a viewer to consider what you're talking about in the context in which you're talking about. As opposed to, like you said, if you were doing like a vlog for you know an hour straight it's it's really difficult it suddenly becomes quite difficult to separate that from partially being about you as opposed to about the subject but I guess the

the vlogging gets us into the area that a big part of it concentrates on which is streamers and YouTubers which which is really that whole type of market and content and audience that just genuinely did not exist 10 or 15 years ago. And that stuff's pretty wild. Especially considering that I have never really watched a great deal of that stuff. I'm sure that it's partially because of my age and that I am very explicitly not the target market for people like Pewpie and Jack Skeptic Eye and Mark Applier and stuff like that. And as you put it at points in the essay like, like, like, at the time of a Jack Skeptyguy video that you were talking about, he had, you know, he's Irish and he had as many subscribers as there

were in the country he's from. And he's got like, sorry, as many subscribers as there were people in the country he's from. That was when he was at 4 million, he was over 20 million now. Oh God. Like five times the popular. And when he had the 4 million, he was like, I just, he was like crying on camera being like, I just wish that I could reply to all of you. I feel so terrible that I can.

And it's like, they're 4 million people, man. Stop. Yeah. Well, that's, and I guess like you were saying, once you start to see, once once once once once to see people trying to please everybody in their audience, it very clearly just becomes this crippling weight on them. I mean the clips that you had of Jack's Skeptic Guy in there. You can just see how much of the time he's coming off as like really insecure and anxious and like genuinely, it really seems like there is

just this genuine overwhelming fear in his life of doing something to turn a significant portion of his audience away from him and it must just be a crushing wait to try and deal with. When he talks about I haven't left my house in weeks and all this sort of stuff because he makes I'm sure millions of dollars and has this life that people aspire to but he's more alienated than anyone. And it was it really was that moment of that particular video where he's watching he's playing a fan game where someone in the game is talking to him and they're like I just wish I just wish that he could see me and then he gets so upset at this completely unrealistic weird goal of having a personal connection with four million different people

and the fact that they expect that of him and demand that of him every single day and then more recently after I put the video out, he and his girlfriend broke up. And the response to that was just absolutely insane and weird about how intrusive people are into everyone, people's relationships. I don't talk about my dating life at all on the internet ever. And I still get weird questions about like, are you an age bomber guy dating? Like someone kept sending me a poll they made on Twitter asking if I was a mom's girlfriend, like over and over and over again. Very healthy. Real normal stuff. Because he's my friend and I'm a woman, so obviously. I mean, we make videos together so he's my boyfriend. That's exactly like it's this weird sexist thing. But anyway. Yeah, the and I had not planned to make the montage of

different YouTubeers asking people not to come to their house. I only knew about the Pewpie one, but then I started finding more and more and more and I was like, okay, let me cut all these together and just I did want the essay to be very, very confrontational and very upsetting because I don't want people to be like, oh it's not a big deal. What, these people have money, what are you, what are they complaining about? Because also, like, they do have, like, people get very wealthy off of this, but the platforms could collapse at any minute, and there are a lot of lower level YouTubeers who put up with the same stuff who don't have any secure, even like, someone like, someone like Pudy pie, thi the same the same the same the same thip thu-a, thu-a, thu-a, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. thi. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. who has more access to security. I think every he said he's lived in six different

places and every single one a fan has come to his house. So this is something that that interested me and especially that that segment with all of the YouTube is like in succession being like what what is, why would you do this? Why would you come to my house? And something that you say in there, especially where a lot of these people didn't sign up necessarily for the kind of mega celebrity that you, the conscious choice that you make when you take a leading role in a multi-million dollar film,

or something like that. You know, George Clooney's the example that you give. And there's that, but there's also, to me, it seems like that this, whatever little bit of celebrity that they get, an even lower level YouTube, is it seems to be just so, so much magnified versus what a Hollywood celebrity might get. Like the, the actions and the behavior of the fans as far as the weird kind of parosocial relationships that they set up and the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thatol, that, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thean, thean, thean, is thean, thean, is thean, thean, the is the, th behavior of the fans as far as the weird kind of parasocial relationships that they set up and their total inability to understand boundaries seems far worse for this generation of like YouTube's and streamers and that sort of thing. Is that a fair assessment?

I think so. I think also I K-pop fans and Idol fans are the worst. I think that's true, yeah. They're completely insane, but for YouTubers, because they're talking into the camera and they're saying, I consider you my friend, I want you to feel like you're my friend and the way that they they interact with people at conventions. I the way. th. th. th. th. th. That. That. That. That. That. That. th. th. That. th. th. th. thi. thi. That. thi. thi. That's thi. thi. That's thi. That's thi. thi. thi. thin. That's thi. thi. thi. thin. thin. thi. I thi. That's thi. I th. I thi. I thin, thin, thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm the. I the. I the. I the. I thee. thee. the. thin. the. I the. I the. I th conventions. I'm not saying it's their fault that they get abuse, but they do facilitate that relationship, more that George Clooney isn't going to sit there on a camera and be like you're my friend and he doesn't need to, he doesn't want to. Kevin Spacey does a bit of that in House of Cards, but I don't think people are big fans fans anymore. Was it to watch that. That was a horrific. I was like showing my mom I was like

like what is this? That's so I guess he's trying to. Go ahead. I was just gonna say like and that that to me is like another just perfect crystallized example of just a completely new phenomenon in media now? We're like... Absolutely. Like, imagine trying to explain to somebody 15 years ago. That like, Kevin Spacey will be putting a, putting a video out on a social media platform in which he addresses his real audience, but as his character from a TV show, which he was forced to

leave due to... Oh I didn't know that part of it. Yeah. He did it in character. It's in character. It's in character as Frank cast but... Oh my god. It's the trunizing thing in the world because you know he's doing it thinking well they're going to watch this and be like that's the man from the TV. But I guess I guess I guess th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi th. thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi the. th. th. he he's he's he's th. he's he's thi. thi the the the. the the the. the. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. he. th. he. he's he's he's he's th. he's the. the. he he the. he the. he. he. he. he. he. he. he. he. he he he he he the. the. he th TV. And be tricked. But I guess, I guess like, you know, from his perspective, yeah, he would have thought it was very clever because he would have been like, I'm doing this in character as Frank House of Cardsman. And, and you know, I'm speaking to my audience, the audience of people who I think are still Kevin Spacey fans. But I'm doing it in character so that, like, I'm speaking to my audience, the audience of people who I think are still Kevin Spacey

fans, but I'm doing it in character so that I'm speaking in the context of the TV show that you know the character from about duplicitous snakes trying to bring me down, but you all know what I'm really talking about, which is all the accusations of sexual impropriety against me. And that to me is like a whole new frontier of the blurring of lines, because that's now not just the blurring of lines between, you know, an artist and their audience, but he's also blurring the lines between the artist, the audience, the character that he plays, and the context in which that character appears. And it's one great big, gross, gray mess, really.

And I think the... We live in hell. Yeah, this is what this is. Parasocial hell. That's what I felt like. I think, yeah, and I read the comments on that video and a lot of people were really into it. I don't know what percentage, but I remember sitting there at my relatives' house on a holiday or whatever for just a couple minutes looking, just being...

I don't know why I was surprised that a fairly high percentage of people it looked like, we're like into it and defending him and be like, oh hell yeah, Frank's back. I'm just like, wow, this is thi's this is this is this is th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the their their their thi, and I'm thi, and I'm thi, thi, thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, I'm their, I'm their their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, I's their, I'm thi, I'm just just just just just thi, I'm just thin, thr-s, thr-I's thr-a'-a'-n'-n'-a'-n'-nile. I'm thr-I'm thr-I thranni. I'm th, wow, this is the worst thing in the world. This is awful. Also, you're not supposed to think the character's a good guy. No, you're not. He's a piece of shit. He's evil. I said the first scene he breaks the dog's neck and then rational. I mean, he needed to.

Whatever. Whatever. . . Everyone that watches the show and loves the show envisions themselves as that character though. They're like, I am the power broker. I am the puppet master of the warlords that I work at. I guess like coming back to the, coming back to YouTube is something that I struggle with with this whole medium is that um like you know my friends here will know, I take my own glee and like ripping on movies or TV shows or whatever that I say I don't like, like everybody,

we're all normal, but my genuine feelings about, like different forms of art and pop culture and consumption are generally kind of informed by, I remember reading a Chuck Closterman book called Fargo Rock City and it's sort of, it's about, it's kind of a memoir but it's also about like, like the hair metal of the 80s and early 90s and how a lot of different genres that didn't really get any critical acceptance or acclaim in their heyday, people have then turned around and kind of reexamined after the point and said, oh actually this thing's a cult classic, actually this thing's great and has value for all these reasons. And he was sort of saying like, hair metal never got that. But to him, he was growing up in a th, th, th, th, the the, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, the, the, their thi their, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, saying, like, hair metal never got that.

But to him, he was growing up in a farm in rural North Dakota. And for him, hair metal was like this amazing alien thing that he got from outside of the place that he lived, and was a really, really important formative part of his life. And you know, he absolutely loved it and it expanded his horizons and changed his life and was a really important thing to him. And so the general thesis of his book is, if somebody gets something, you know, important or validating from a creation,

then it automatically has value. Critics can't say, you know, this thing is without value and without worth because I didn't appreciate it. If enough people are finding value in a thing, then it has value. And that is sort of undisputable. And that's something that I kind of struggle with with the YouTube stuff of, like you're saying, they have all these fans that love them. And, you know, we'll sit and watch an hours long thing and get really personally invested in them. And, you know, they do get, like, different people do get messages saying, this thing changed my life, you know. So I think for people like me who've thua thua thua the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that tho that that tho tho tho that tho tho tho tho that is tho tho tho that that is that is that is that that that that that that that that that they they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they have they they they they they they they they they they they th. And that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that that that, and that, and that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thing changed my life, you know. So I think for people like me

who've never really watched a lot of that stuff or got into it, it is still very alien. And you know, you hear plenty of people who are like a bit older than me saying, there's people who watch other people playing games on the internet. I'm much younger than you and I say that frequently. Why wouldn't you just play the internet? I'm much younger than you when I say that frequently. Why wouldn't you just play the game yourself? And yeah, so it's difficult because I think by its very nature it clearly has value to a lot of people. So I find a lot of difficulty in dismissing it, but at the same time, like you're saying,

you watch those videos of like Jack Skeptic Eye just constantly just like begging his audience for love and and proclaiming his love for them and it's really jarring you know um... And like he especially Jack Scepticai is more... I find his main content really annoying. He's very shrill and he yells a lot. And a lot of it is him playing up a character, which I think he's consciously dialed back a little bit because he was had like a sort of a crisis of identity about not being

that person. But he's also super big about accessibility, about being welcoming to marginalized people and his fan base, about supporting different charities and about people who play games who have disabilities and making games more accessible to them. And his whole, some of it is a little self-helpy, but his attitude is very positive. And I think he does have overall a positive impact, compared to someone like PudyPy who has, who has been Chapero on his show and has said the N-word and whatever on like a political level.

And what's interesting too is Jack Stab the guy got his start through Pudy pie so he's sort of like weirdly on the hook for stuff that Pudypy does or there's drama when he's like I wish my friend hadn't said the n-word and then everyone's like, you backstabbing, cuck, idiot. That's why I got my friend to read off Jack as a cuck in my video and that was literally from one of those, like him talking about Pewpie people, a whole bunch of people called him a cuck and a lot worse words than I say. That kind of weird, trying to have a positive persona but being connected to your friend who's that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that to be being to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be that to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to that to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the.... the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thr. the thr. the thru. the thru. thru. thru. thri. thri. thri. that thri. the. toe. yeah, I think his videos are positive overall, but you imagine that kid who could be making actual friends, who could be a real emotional ballast, a real support, and they just spend 12 hours a day watching an Irish man scream at video games. It's like, it's, like anything else, it's healthy until you're over-indulging in it,

and it's replacing actual relationships that you need as a human being. Yeah, I saw someone, one of our listeners asked about it, or was discussing it, and they didn't say whether they wanted their name attached to this, so the concept that like, people, people who find introverted people that find social situations exhausting right so you're faced with the choice of of wanting some sort of social contact so but you don't want to go out because that's exhausting and it takes energy out of you you know so imagine like if the computer in the Sims

could fill your social meter, right? Like that's a net positive, right? But they're not, how do you balance that against, and you know, having this positive influence as far as, you know, both socializing and the, like you said, with some of these guys that they're fostering, you know, positive attitudes towards, you., towards, towards, towards, towards, towards, towards, towards, you, you, towards, you, you, you, you, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, it, it thi, it, it, it thi, you thi, you thi, thi, thi, it, thi, thi, it, it, it, thi, thi, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, it th, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it th, it thi. It, it thi. It ta ta, ta takes ta, takes, takes, takes, takes, takes, takes, like you said, with some of these guys that they're fostering, you know, positive attitudes towards, you know, marginalized people and all that sort of thing.

And how do you balance that versus the concept that, like you said, they could be going out and actually, you know, making friends, and perhaps this stuff might get easier. Maybe it won't, maybe it won't, I know from myself, I'm at a point in my life where I don't think I'll ever find social situations entirely comfortable. And then, and so how do you balance those two pulling kind of influences of, you know, is this good, is it not good? Are we, you know, is it just self-perpetuating the inability to form real relationships? I think it depends on the person too. A lot

of it for me was very personal because I have pretty bad social anxiety and I've had other problems in my life with being very shy and introverted like you said. And when I was a kid I was like, I was like, I, like I, like, I, like, I, like I, like I, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like, I, I, like, I, like, I, like, like, I, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, and introverted, like you said. And when I was a kid, I was like, I recently met up with my seventh grade science teacher and she was really, really surprised that I do YouTube and panel like conventions and stuff because I was so quiet and so just like trapped inside of myself when I was a kid. So for me, I had to, like I remember in college going to help with a stage production like set up the play and do some set design or some set building and stuff and I remember physically shaking, walking towards it because I was so nervous and it was

over and over again forcing myself to be around people because I was so lonely and I just couldn't handle just being on a computer. I did I did have like online friends too which was cool and which online friends are real friends that people are like everyone's talking about parasocial relationships I like my online friends I was like I never said it's a real person that you talk to you. Yeah that's not a parasocial relationship this is a you know social relationship. That's a two-way relationship with someone who you could conceivably hang out with, and you don't have to hang out with them, you can talk to them on Skype, you could, someone you can open up to and you can share triumphs together and talking about the bad day.

You can actually play video games with these people. Bad day. Right, like you can actually do the internet. Very easily. I used to play a TFT with my online friends. I racked up over like 250 hours or something. Yeah. I didn't have a lot of friends in college. And I still hang out with those people, you know, whenever I travel or if they

come down here. I've had some online friends since like 2005. But there are th, like th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, thi, thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm th. I'm th, I'm th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin., thin., thin. thin. thin. theeean, like mental health problems that are a lot worse than mine are like physical problems where they can't leave their house are people who have a lot more trouble reading social cues so I can't I don't want to 100% be like it's so like you just have to work through it but I do think anyone who is like capable of communicating with another person you can make a friend on Twitter, or you could join a discord server,

or I think they're, I don't know, because I don't want to say, oh, it's easy and anybody can do it, because people get that impression for my video, is like, go outside, idiot, you nerd. I'm not trying to do that to anybody. But I think people don't realize that's, that's, for me. Oh yeah, other people can like bully my audience for me. So I don't need to do it. But I went through a lot of feeling very alienated.

It's like when I was in middle school, I moved schools in the middle of the year and a bunch of my relatives died. I had a bunch of other awful stuff happened and I already had like problems and I didn't have any friends. like really really really rough to try to build myself back up from that. And then in high school I started making friends and it was like, oh this is awesome. I am never going back to like feeling so alone and just watching anime for like 10 hours a day or whatever. Which I used to do or play video games all the time to fill the void. It's like it's to me much more fulfilling to like, like you said play the the and d-a.................... to, to, to, to, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to me, to me, to, to me, to, to, to me, to me much more fulfilling to like, like you said, play with other people or like play D&D with my friends now or whatever. But I still, like, I've always really like red letter media's videos and a lot of their best stuff is just them sitting around talking about movies.

But I don't, but I also have friends in real life that I also go see movies with instead of just like living vicariously through a bunch of 40 year old men in Milwaukee. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I really like their stuff as well and I think, you know, some of the stuff that was very interesting about like them and I think like the Chappo guys, a lot of other people is these, like, I think that the commonality between those two is that they are people with very large audiences who not only, I think they not only don't make any active effort to foster like any form of personal relationship or anything with their audiences, but they are at a lot of times like downright antagonistic towards it. Oh, they are.

For sure. Yeah, I mean, like you said in the essay, like, you know, red-like, the the the the the the the the the the the they th-like, th-like, they-like, th-like, they-like, they-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I th-I th-I th-I thirty-I thirty-I thirty-I thirty-I thee, I thee, I thee, I thee, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, I thin, for sure. Yeah, I mean, like you said in the essay, like, you know, red letter media guys, they have an entire like, an entire show off to the side, which is just making fun of comic book nerd guy YouTube shows, you know. The, the Chappo guys have like running jokes about their fans being squealing hogs and like do not send it, do not contact us about this stuff like if we do- Email Virgil stuff. Yeah, email Virgil, like do not contact me, do not speak to me about this. And yet still, as you said, these guys can post up material and if if you go and look at a subreddit full of their fans,

some enormous percentage of the comments are about their personal appearance, about whether or not they would like them if they hung out in real life. Like, I'd love to drink with these guys. I think we'd be great friends and all this kind of stuff. And it's just like, what, what have have the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thu th thu thu thu thu thu, thi thi thi thi thi that, that, tho-a, tho-a, thi thi thi thi tho--------------------------------s, thu---s, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi-a, thi-a, thi-a, thi-a, thi-a, thi-a, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s. And, thooooo'-s. And, thoa'er-s. And, theea'erer-s. And, thoooooer-s. And, we'd be great friends and all this kind of stuff. And it's just like, what have these guys ever done to indicate that they would be remotely interested in that? I think it's very interesting to see that, yeah, even in, even compared to like YouTube's where that is very clearly a huge part

of their attempts to market themselves is to say, we friends I am your friend I am here for you is that even content where people are saying fuck off and don't talk to me people still insist on attempting to create that kind of relationship I think it's a funny joke that they're in on it's just like an authenticity thing it's like oh yeah all your fans the way I I'm going to find your house. And make his friends. Well, your fans suck, except for me, the one who gets it. Well, I'm the good one, so I'm going to spam memes referencing your stuff and drive you insane. I found like that that to be very tragicomic, the story about that, that's the streamer where this guy's where he's just hanging out in this hot tub this dude's just like poked his head over the like the wooden fence like hey

how's it going? Oh I'm like like yeah that was the part of it that I love was he like oh hey are you that YouTube that I know oh hey funny seeing you here funny funny seeing you from a backyard that I do not own. What are we in coincidence? Yeah, and Matt Shea is like, you know, why would you think that I would be your friend? That we are, what impression did I give you that this is like the way to construct a friendship with somebody sort of thing? And I think it really gets back to the core of like what these parasocial relationships are in that, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, th, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th of thing. And I think it really gets back to the core of like what these parasocial relationships are in that they, the person on the other end truly feels like

it's a friendship in a lot of cases. Like it's a real friendship, like they are, like the cutout anime girl is actually another penguin that they should be howling at. Just devote their life to it until they die. Yeah, ideally, yes. I guess, like, yeah, coming back from, I suppose, types of content which do not ask people, you know, for their dedication or their devotion or anything like that, if we swing back in the other direction, we get, you know, when you were talking, you know, the today, you to to to to the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that that that that that that that that that that, that their their that that, that, that, that, that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their today, today, their today, their today, today, today, today, today, today, today, the, thi, thatuui, ththeir dedication or their devotion or anything like that. If we swing back in the other direction, we get, you know, when you were talking about

Taylor Swift during this piece, and I thought that that was very interesting because obviously, I guess what was interesting to me was that you sort of pinpointed a bunch of pieces about Taylor Swift that very explicitly said the way that she cultivates relationships with her fans is deliberate and cynical. You know like the whole sort of yeah even like the meeting all the fans in real life and remembering their names and getting personal gifts for them and saying okay now you're part of the Taylor Swift universe. Put your credit card details here and like... Go on Tumblr and tell everyone else how authentic I

am and how great I am to you. I have your name written a notebook with some notes next to it so I know who you are. Are you disgusting weirdo? But I'm gonna pretend to be, I mean, that's me being cynical, but it's like thi. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I's thi. I'm thi. I'm to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tel. tel. tel. tel. te. te. te. tell te. te. te. te. tell te. tell to to to's like, these aren't, yeah, ugh. It's so deliberately done and so publicly done. There are people who can form friendships with their fans and have like a beautiful friendship, like a specific fan, but it's not going to be put on display as a badge of authenticity. Yeah, yeah, and that to me was more like, um, where you had a little bit in there about, like a fan of The Walking Dead who had gone to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to me was more like, where you had a little bit in there about like a fan of The Walking Dead who had gone to a lot of meat and greets who had like died of cancer, and then there was a seemingly very genuine display of grief

from cast members of the show, but in a way that I don't think would have been prompted or expected by anybody. Whereas with the stuff like Taylor Swift, that section was sort of interesting to me because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, th, th, th, th, the th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the, the the the the the the the, the, thean, than, than, than, than, thanan, thanan, thanan, than, than, than, their, their, their, their,. Whereas with the stuff like Taylor Swift, that section was sort of interesting to me because it made me think about how there are, like, there's a list of pop stars that I think we can all sort of think to ourselves like, if you were going to post a thing on Twitter being critical of anyone from this list I'm going to say like Ariana Grand,

Beyonce, Taylor Swift, you know there's just a list of people where if you were going to post like this person fucking sucks and I hate their music you would just kind of hover your finger over the post button for a second thinking I kind of don't want their audience to see this because they'll try and kill me. Thousands of them will assemble to try to destroy my life. And I had an interesting interaction with somebody on Twitter the other day where I just I posted what I thought was a very mild observation about what was the like top news item on Twitter the other day where I just, I posted what I thought was a very mild observation about what was the like top news item on Twitter, which was that Kesha had bravely posted a photo of herself

without makeup. Well, she has freckles, right? She got a lot of freckles. She looks great, wonderful, good stuff. And, and you know, I just said, this whole thing is just kind of funny to me, hey look this super conventionally attractive person has posted a picture of themselves without makeup and it turns out that they are even more attractive. And you know and in my defense I specifically ended the post by saying do not yell at me. That'll do it. Yeah. And, and, and, yeah, and, you know, several people sort of found this post and wait in

and said, well, actually, she was abused and she's had an eating disorder in the past, so it's really great that she's feeling good about some aspect of herself, and I thought to myself, sure, that's fine. One young fan found this thing and was incensed and was like, oh, making yourself feel good by putting her down, even though she almost died, all capitalized, from this eating disorder, and she's been abused, and all this stuff. And I thought, I'm just going to take the time to try and patiently have this conversation. And I said, like, and I had this conversation for a while and I could not get this person to understand,

despite explicitly saying all of the following things. I said, I have absolutely no problem with Kesher. I don't think it matters at all what I think, and it shouldn't. It shouldn't matter at all what I think. I bear her absolutely no will. I am purely commenting on the observable trend of people like you know fating celebrities for posting makeup free selfies, you know, heaping adulation on people who are known for being very attractive for posting makeup free selfies. And I could not get this guy to accept the fact that I was not personally attacking her.

He was obviously really getting something from the idea that he was like coming to her defense. And I think it's interesting that like Keshia, you know, she has her whole Dr. Luke situation of having been abused and having had an eating disorder in her past. And I think that there's like, again, some people might think that this is very cynical, of me, but I think that there is an observable trend in some pop stars, like, people like Lady Gaga come to mind, where they have some type of trauma in their past that they have their, that, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, their, their, their, and, their, and, their, and, having, and, having, having, having, having, having, having, having, having, having having having their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, Lady Gaga, come to mind, where they have some type of trauma in their past

that they have spoken to and that a lot of their audience has connected with. And that has now become an indelible part of their public persona. And it sort of gets to a point for me where I'm like, how much of this is legit and how much of this is a way for you to provide that personal connection with audiences that are often in a relatively like emotionally vulnerable stage of their life? Yeah, I sort of wonder about it. I mean in the case of Taylor Swift, her whole trauma is like, I hate fake friends and I broke up with some boys. You know, like, and and except it's like that is a huge indelible part of her persona is saying you should ignore haters, anyone who criticizes you is wrong, and any boy that's ever broken up with you is a huge piece of shit. But also like you get this this effect

where then their entire brigade has to come to their defense despite the fact that, and this is you know I think a really like a key part of of these weird relationships despite the fact that one, you know, they'll never appreciate it, but two, they're multi-millionaires. They can defend them themselves quite easily, and they're also not reading any of these comments. Nobody is, and I'm kind of also reminded of all of the tech bros that kind of come to defend Elon Musk whenever anyone, you know, you know, they're, you............. I, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, you, you, you, you, you, you know, they're, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they know, they're, they'll know, they're, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll, they tech bros that kind of come to defend Elon Musk whenever anyone you know assails him for being a huge weirdo with

bizarre thoughts and actions like that they've they've built up all of these relationships and part of that part of having a relationship is someone is coming to their defense when they're criticized or when they're attacked. But it's really immaterial. I mean, it's just people fighting amongst themselves, but it's not, it doesn't come off that way when it's occurring. Like this, yeah, weird kind of thing of defending their friend, but their friend is nowhere to be seen.

Yeah, it won't someone, please think of the billionaires. It's weirder too when it's brands. It's not even people, not even a natural human being. It's a property that you just get. It's such a big part of your identity. And part of that is the parosocial aspect and part of it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just it is just that that that is just that that is just that that is just thism, like, like that is just that ocial aspect and part of it is just like under like under capitalism not having meaning so your meaning is Star Wars or your meaning is that man. The corporations are people now. Yeah I mean I'm gonna defend Disney. No I mean that's right look I mean Nestle has committed huge water crimes across the whole world but I do enjoy their chocolate so fuck you

I mean we've certainly seen we've certainly seen recent examples of this this with thi across the whole world, but I do enjoy their chocolate. So fuck you. I mean, we've certainly seen, we've certainly seen recent examples of this with things like, with things like, you know, the video game, Overwatch. And all those people who have sunk hundreds or thousands of hours into this game, and then they, and then they say, by thethe way one of the characters is gay. Video game man not gay. Fuck you. Not gay. This fictional character who doesn't actually have a storyline and you know I'm not I'm not gonna run around and shoot cartoon characters on this map as a gay and people get incensed people go nuts about it and like I think I suppose like we we have spoken a lot about the

idea of like defending content or an artist or or you know a property or anything but but that sort of stuff and and some of the brand related stuff leads to what to me is like probably an even weird a phenomenon which is publicly breaking up with a brand or a product. Like doing a post, we say, well I guess that's it for you and me, Gillette Raysers. We've been together for years now, but you've finally betrayed me. Gillette dead, now chick my new dad. Yeah, yeah, like the same stuff. I saw a post that a friend of the show, Ed Zitron, comically retweeted, which was somebody doing like, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like, I, like, like, like, like, like, like, I, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th... Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, like, th. Yeah, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like the same stuff, like I saw a post that a friend of the show, Ed Zittron,

comically retweeted, which was somebody doing like, I'm breaking up with Blizzard post. I can only assume that it's about like, what's the, is it like Activision and, I know, it would have been Bungy. Yeah, it was Bungy and Activision split. Yeah, they're splitting up with Activision and this person had done this post where they, th, they, which, they, they, they, they, they, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thre, the, the, the, the, the, thre, thre, thre, thly retwee, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. And they're speaking about it like, you know, I had to, it was like mice and men, I had to go down by the river with my big dumb friend and put a bullet in his head. Like they were killing their characters in these games, you know, and it's just, it's absolutely bizarre to see and it really does lead you to that conclusion of like, you've got to get some real relationships, man. You gotta, you need to possibly not invest so much of yourself into, like, avatars in a game.

Wild stuff. I've never been like a big World of Warcraft player, but I imagine people get a bit like that about that as well. I never played it because I know I would have gotten addicted to it. I was big in Neo Pets when I was like to to to to to to their to to their to their to th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was to th. I was to th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi, you to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to possibly to possibly to possibly to possibly to possibly to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. You th. th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I need thi. I need thi. thi. neeeeeateat, thi. You neeeat, neeat, neeat, you need to neeat, you need to to to tothat as well. I never played it because I know I would have gotten addicted to it. I was beginning in Neopets when I was like 11. I was spent all my time on Neopets. I was like I don't need to go on wow. That'll ruin my life. But it's the when your consumption or your parasocial relationships are your identity and someone attacks your identity you want to hurt them just as as it hurt you. I did a video about the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm the. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm the. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm the. I the. I the. I the. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm like th. I'm like like th. I'm like the. I'm like the. I'm like the. I'm like the. I'm like thean. I'm like thean. I'm like thean. I'm like thean. I'm like thean. I'm like thean. I'm like theeeee. I did a video about the anime and manga one piece that is mostly very, very, very, very positive,

but there's a little bit where I criticized like the LGBT and woman representation in it, which is pretty bad. And I've gotten like sort of death threats about that. From people who are so upset about like someone, this is like a very awful, like transphobic thing to say but someone was like I hope you get your skull crushed by a trans MMA fighter. Because I was like mildly critical of an anime and they were spamming like worse stuff than that on it and I was like that I don't

get that on other videos like I have a video about political correctness that doesn't get comments that bad fake friends hasn't threat level I was like I I I I I I I I I th I th I th like like like like like like like like like like like I was like like like I was like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like I was like like like like like like like the the the the the th like th like th like th. I was like th. I was like I was like like th. I was like th. I was like I was like I was like I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm like like, I'm th. I'm like, I'm the. I'm like, I'm the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm the. I'm th. I fake friends hasn't gotten death threat level. I was like, people, the comment section on that one, and I was like, I don't want to make anime videos anymore. Well, that's, I mean, anime should be a crime for this reason, I think. And it was like an over, I was like, this, the show helped me through grief and it affected how I draw and I've made so many friends thrown. and it and it and it............ And it was like, and it was like, and it, and it, and it, and it was like, and it, and it, I was like, I was like, I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I don't like, I don't like, I don't like, I don't like, I don't thi. I don't thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th.. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I than, I don't than, I don't than, I don't than, I don't than, I don't than, I don't than. I don't than. I don't than. I don't than. I don't than. I don't th and I wish that the women were like not drawn all the same way with huge boobs and da da da and someone's like you need to die for this and that was very... it's like I would never make a video about Star Wars or Marvel or DC because their fans are just... it's so much of their lives that they'll just want to kill you and it's like oh that's normal. Yeah like that sort of encapsulates like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, encapsulates like, yeah, the nature of and the problem with the parasocial relationships

is the idea that like, when people get really mad on behalf of a property and, you know, come to its defense or when people get incredibly upset about something and like, you know, publicly break up with their sneakers in order to yell at Nike or whatever, like you said, they're feeling hurt and they need to to to to to to to to to to to to direct to direct to direct to direct to direct to direct their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their sneakers in order to yell at Nike or whatever. Like you said, they're feeling hurt and they need to direct that somewhere, but the thing that they have this parasocial relationship with cannot ever, it can't see that and it can't be damaged by it.

You know, it's a, especially in the case of all the sort of content where, you know, a lot of the time there isn't any one person that you can direct that at or two. I mean, with some of the stuff that we're talking about of like YouTube's and podcasters and stuff like that, I guess, by, you know, by trying, you could get some hurtful messages to like some of one or some of the individuals involved in making the thing, but as soon as you're talking about something like a movie or a TV show or a manga or a brand or a product or any of those things, these things are all inanimate objects brought together by the efforts of hundreds or thousands of people, there is no one person that you can direct any of this anger at. Maybe just the intern on the social media account. It's probably just about it.

Which I'm sure we'll do a lot and make a big difference. Just screaming at some intern. Well, before we wrap it up, I was going to ask, do you have any particular portrayals of parasocial relationships in movies or anything that you like? I liked Ingrid goes west. Which I haven't seen yet but I've heard it's really good. It's good. It's not perfect, but I do think it's a good, like a lot of people talks about eighth grade in that context and when I watched it I thought eighth grade was to be more about the parasocial stuff and eighth grade was, but it wasn't as much. I would say Ingrid goes west,

is about someone who has a very sad life. Like she took care of her mother for a long time and her mother died. And then she gets obsessed with this Instagram star and tries to be her best for it, like, moves to where she is and kind of stalks her and how that escalates. I also really like World's Greatest Dad, which is an older movie. It's a Robin Williams dark comedy, sort of about like, I don't want to spoil it, but it's about some people's perception of someone versus who they actually are and how that can be cached in on. And I do really like Make Happy that Bo Burnham special where he talks a lot,

I quoted that one a whole lot. Some of the songs are really stupid and I don't like them very much, but some are very, very good and at the end of it he's very vulnerable. And I don't know if he's ever going to do comedy again. I mean maybe he will, but that was three years ago. Well, it seems like he's in that Jordan Peel kind of space now, where's he's directed a movie that was like Shockingly well received and it seems like he probably has the currency now to just do what he wants and Probably doesn't have to return to comedy if he doesn't want to Mm-hmm. Which is good. I don't think it I mean this is me having a parasol which fans love to point out in the comment section of the bobernum video that I did it's like me for me. They're????????? want him to be my boyfriend because I'm a woman who makes YouTube videos. It's really cool when I get comments like that. I love Mr. Gotcha. It's so good. Yeah, well I have a Patriot. So I'm a hypocrite. People love pointing that out. Well I think it's safe to say the th people th people th people th people th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi tho tho tho tho- tho- thi thi- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho-I th the the thi thi-I thi-I thi-I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi to to to to to to the to to the to to the-s to-s to-s to-s tho-a to-s the-a thi thi thi thi thi say for in our part we will never try and form a relationship with our fans So they they really come to us with that

I just say they're gonna get that genuine kind of content knowing that we will never know them That's it except for the people that we've met in real life. Yeah except for all of those and the relationships for all that sort of stuff, but apart from that Oh have you ever seen the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the movie the the the the th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they, but apart from that. Oh, have you ever seen the movie The Fan? Shannon? No, I haven't. It's a 1996 movie with Robert De Niro and Wesley Snipes, and it's about a Wesley Snipes like a pro baseball player. It's like a thriller where Robert De Niro is like an obsessive fan, who thinks that he knows the baseball player

really well and like desperately wants to insert himself into his life. Oh shit, that reminds me of taxi driver. The one of the like early like luminaries of that sort of thing. Yeah. I have seen taxi driver. But I mean, you know, the taxi driver is a really good example of, you know, somebody just imposing their ideas of a relationship on other people. But in the case of the fan, you know, a huge part of it is, is him just imagining that

he knows this person really well and coming to the defense of him in increasingly creepy and violent ways. I recommend it. Good flick. Tony Scott, RIP. I need to watch it often thinking about doing a review series just on like paratrocial movies. Like I've never seen Perfect Blue. That once come a lot, come up a lot.

The Satoshi Kone movie, and there are a bunch of others that I want to. And there's a new horror movie on Netflix called Cam, about like a Cam Girl. That seems to be a pair of social stuff that looks really interesting but I haven't watched that either. Very nice. Well, on that note, folks, you can find Shannon on Twitter at Plenty of Alcoves. You can find her on YouTube at Stricy Movies and you can watch these, this series of videos that we've been talking about. And if you like that material and would like to help Shannon produce more, you can watch these, this series of videos we've been talking about. And if you like that material and would like to help Shannon produce more, you can support her on Patreon at Patreon.com slash Strucci Movies. Which I think at the moment is set up in the way where people sort of subscribe

and the money sort of comes out when you release a video as opposed to like monthly or whatever? It's per video so I actually have to make something. So get paid. Yeah, so get over and get over there and support it. It is great stuff. Obviously we will link all of this stuff up in the episode. And to do our own plugging for our beautiful ad-free show, if you would like an extra episode every week, you can go on over to our Patreon. Patreon.com forward slash Bunter Vista. Only five bucks a month.

And what's five dollars for a delicious gigantic meal of spaghetti pizza? Come on. Mmm. Mmm, mama mea. We're back in the kitchen mine palace eating weird food. Well, thank you very much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Everybody please check out Shannon all over the internet and we will see you next week. Thanks everybody. Oh, that's good.