Boonta Vista - EPISODE 83: Union Activision (Featuring @burgerdrome)

Episode Date: January 28, 2019

We are joined again by Tim (@burgerdrome) to discuss his latest piece about Game Developer unionisation for Polygon: https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/16/18178332/game-developer-union-crunch Check out Game Workers Unite for more info: http://gameworkers.com.au/ *** Support our show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Merchandise available at: boontavista.com/merchandise *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Buntavista. I am Andrew. I'm joined by Ben. That's that energy I love Ben. What's up? What's up everybody? Hey! You can hear the studio audience going wild. Hey, that's that energy I love Ben. What's up? What's up, everybody? Hey, you can hear the studio audience going wild. I love for that. Yeah. But if you want, if you really want energy, if you want the real star hear the studio audience going wild. I love it for that. But if you want, if you really want energy, if you want the real star of the show, of course we're talking about Thea. Hey baby. Ooh.

Oh, hoo. Just a new thing that I'm going for, just thinking it could be my thing. I like it. What do you like it? Yeah, I kind of in, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, the butt, the butt, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the butt, th, thing. I like it. What do you reckon? You like it? Yeah, I like it. I kind of in my butt hole in voluntary kind of puck it up a bit in a sort of uncomfortable way, but it's probably, it's probably just because it's new. You know? Yeah, we'll give it a spin. Not because it's bad. Yeah, we'll try it for 20, 30 episodes and. Yeah, see how it pans out. Slightly different inflections and delivery every time, you know.

And we are joined by a guest. Returning for the third time, tying him with Matt Brady for most appearances on the podcast. We can't get rid of the guy. We are joined by a beautiful friend of the show, Tim! Woo! Woo! Woo! I put my own airhorn, because it wasn't enough energy in the room.

Can't just line up your own airhorn, geez. I don't know if that's, yeah, that should be illegal, surely. We're trying to run a professional operation here. Clearly. Now, Tim- Thank you've had on your shirt. Suck shit, Matt. Please, go on. I don't, I don't like to play favorites. I said Ty. I don't like to play favorites with the guests, so I will just say hello.

Thank you there and hello to you as well. Okay, well, enough of that. their things. that's all just calm down. So if you are familiar with Tim from any of his previous appearances on the show and you might not be, you might not be. You could have just dropped in to say hi and here you are at a real sausage party. This is the first episode you've ever listened to. Hello.

It's so good to have you here. Good day to you. And if you are with someone else, and to you, that part's directed to the second person. If you're in a car full of people, hey, all of you guys. Hey, everybody. This seems like a weird thing to do. Turn to each other as well and look each other in the eye and say hello to one another. Don't break on eye contact, not even to look at the road. Yeah. Look, if you're in that seat in the middle, look to your left and then look to your right. One of you is going to die before you reach your destination.

It's like a really grim TED Talk, all of a sudden. And don't look at your phone because you might be fined $400 like our friend Duke Latham. For looking at his phone, uh, when to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the their their their the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. theateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateat. theateateateateat the, their their their Friend of the show, Duke Latham incredibly mad online about looking at his phone when stopped at an intersection. Slugged, slugged $400 and it wasn't even at the Bouser. But it was at the hip pocket. My goodness. My goodness. They get you in the same place. People know what we're talking about. Yeah, it's the pocket on the head. Yep. Yeah. Let's not get back into where people carry their wallets. I don't want to open up that whole can and worms again. People who are responding to us with absolute, just madness. I keep a wallet in the front left and my watch goes on my right ankle and then I just Just outrageous sounds like a Jordan Peter's

Yes, I wrap my coins in tinfoil and place them gingerly under my sack Just no good the stuff people were coming out of us with while the the wallet goes in the back pocket ridiculous interesting tips coming out. I don't have to go find that discussion unless you're driving and the wallet goes in the back pocket. It's ridiculous. Interesting tips coming out. I don't have to go find that discussion. Unless you're driving and the wallet goes in the front pocket, keys go into the mission. How are we? Anyway, Tim is back. Increasingly regretfully.

Well, you're here now. You can't leave. That's true, there's no way to leave a podcast. Once we've closed the door of the podcast studio. I mean except for me I sometimes leave accidentally multiple times an episode, but that's fine. I've stopped doing that, I haven't done that for a while. So Tim, yes. I understand you've written a new piece for Polygon. I have occasionally, the, the, the, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you the, you the, you the, you, you, you've written a new piece for Polygon.

I have occasionally, they, you know, allow me to put my words on their website after a vigorous sub-editing process. And that has happened once again. And then the yelling begins. Yes, the yelling always begins. This piece is about why game developers need to unionize, which they do, and the article explains why. And I won't be going on any further detail on it, because you can simply read it. Well, thank you for joining us. Great, always a pleasure guys. Yeah, so I think I actually, you know, I remember I talked about this last time I was on, but I said that you know one of the things things... the th. the th. th. the th. th. the th. the th. thi thi the thi thi thi thi the thi thi the thi the thi the thi. thi. their their their thi. thi. their thi. their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. thu. thu. thu things things things things things things things things things thu thu. thu. thu. I was th. I was the the th. I th. I th great people in around Australia, just you know, I guess people like Felicia and Mays and we got some help from existing unions like the Media Alliance and professionals Australia.

You know, we're all kind of be getting some momentum on the ground here and internationally as well. It's all kicking off so there's a lot of really interesting and cool stuff happening in the world of unionized game development. So, I mean, it's probably good to like step back initially. Yes. I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thii. thi. thi, th So, I mean, it's probably good to like step back initially. Yes. I mean, I assume that people may be a little bit aware of just how shitty it is to be a game developer. But can you kind of lay, you know, describe the scene.

You're a game developer. You've started, you've been assigned a 5-pixel by 5-pixel area in Assassin's Creed 19. It's just the horse's nuts in Red Dead Redemption, that's right. You're working on the horses nuts in Red Dead Redemption too. You're on, yeah, you're an overseas, like sister studio working out of Australia. Testical design, you're on, yeah, you're an overseas, like sister studio working out of Australia, what might that look like? Oh, well, I mean, let me just stop you there and say that the global financial crisis killed any of that.

So we certainly don't have any of that happening in Australia anymore, unfortunately, which is a huge pity, but what that would look like in Australia in this hypothetical scenario where our industry wasn't obliterated by the global financial crisis is, you know, we're talking probably minimum 60 hours a week for most people. We're talking weekend work, especially towards the end of a project, maybe seven days a week if you're going in the hard crunch. We're talking no, no or very little compensation for that kind of overtime. And we're talking people who have convinced themselves that working this hard and working

this long and then working until you, you get RSI or carpal tunnel and you burn out and leave the industry is all normal and to be expected. And in fact, the necessary price to pay for being involved in the magic of video game creation, the literal sorcery and alchemy that is the creation of a video game. And that's basically the picture of the game industry, which is overwork, underpayment, exploitation and just tons and tons of willing capitulation to that. Right, so, but I mean, if you didn't like love, love video games, then, I mean, what are you doing there in the first place? But, and also, but if you do love video games, it must just be like, I don't know, like a dream come true or something I think and oh yeah definitely you should you should just shut up if

anyone ever asks you know why the way you're not home on the weekends that's right because I mean you know it's just you just lucky to be working alongside such the roar act of magical creation that is you know stitching pixels together together together tog and tog and tog and tog and tog pixels together. And so how does that, so that's what it may look like in Australia, but your piece sort of goes into the global situation. So like how does that, how does that look for like developers in the US and you know other kind of first world countries that were. It's a lot worse for game developers in the US.

I mean, to briefly, you know, tou toubst touch on the Australia issue, like after the global financial crisis, basically Australia now has just mostly indie developers. And small, small developers, you know, studios of 10, 20, 30 people. They're only a couple of big name studios. So if you really want to look at the, you know, Australia is like I'm not trying to downplay our unionization efforts here, but by and large it's more small businesses over here. Over in the US particularly in Canada and the UK, it's when you start to hit those real AAA development houses, the rock stars, you know, the Microsofts, the EAs, and that's where

these labor issues like crunch and overwork and underpayment and exploitation and stuff really start to show up. I mean, we all saw, or at least I hope we all did, the rock star, people talking about working 100 hour weeks, you know, and then backpedaling and saying, oh no, only a few of us worked a hundred hour weeks because we really wanted to. And, and you know, the tel tale tale game game game game game game game game game game game game game game game game game game game games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games games the the the to the to the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the to to work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work work, to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tel tel tel tel tel tel tel tel tel toto. And, you know, the tel-tale games being shut down just before the end of last year and with no severance pay. Like all that kind of stuff, these are the issues they're facing, you know, like the total lack of job security. When you do get a job, it doesn't pay very well and you're expected to work yourself in, you've got no health insurance, you've got no where to go. And, you know, especially if you're increasingly, if you're a member of like the queer or trans community,

you just face an amount of harassment from within and without game studios. And often you can find that a studio just throws you under the bus if you're causing any amount of trouble or if you're the target of a hate mob on Facebook or whatever, they'll just throw th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thuu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-n' thr-n' thr-a. thr-n' thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. And thi. And thi. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And thi. And thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thrown. thrown. thrown. throooooo. to thr. thrown. thro. And thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi studio just throws you under the bus if you're causing any amount of trouble or if you're the target of a hate mob on Facebook or whatever, they'll just throw you under the bus rather than try and actually deal with the problem. So there really are a lot of moving parts to it, but basically it's just a nightmare of unregulated work. It's the Silicon Valley experience. The thing thing that, like, you you you you you you you you you you you you're like, you, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're you're you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're thi, thi, throw, throw, throw, throw, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throw, throwing, throw, throwing, throwing, throwing, throwing, throwing, throw of thing. I mean, everyone's kind of like very, it's front of mind for a lot of people with Rockstar at the moment, but like you don't, I don't think you have to think that back that far for like, do you remember like EA spouse? Yeah, yeah, spouse was a big, I mean, that was, it was 2001 or two wasn't I think like, like, and like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I don't, I don't, like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, I, I don't, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, th............ think, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don And like I don't think necessarily, like, nothing's changed for the better, right?

So the deal with EA spouse was someone was like, you know, my spouse works for EA, you know, here's the shitty stuff that we have to go through. And she described basically, I think the same scenario that you're talking about now, where, like, you work and then you finish up a project, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, a... the. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the for me like I think we talk a lot about the the like amount of hours that you do as a game dev and like the crunch and that sort of thing but one thing that I don't think people people like really well aware of is like when it finishes up and especially in America where their labor laws are so lax the project finishes up and they don't need these people anymore yeah that's right so like it was like it was the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was th. It was thi thi thi. It's the. the. thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their th. I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the thr. the the the thr. the. these people anymore. Yeah, that's right. Right. So like it was quite

systematic for EA especially for projects to, they'd move people across the country, a project to finish up and then suddenly you're left on the other side of the country with nobody that you know, kind of just sitting there going like, well, do I just, do I kill myself now? Is that the next step? Yeah, exactly what happened in Telltale as well, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the project, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their project, their, their project, their, their project, their, their, their, their, their, the next step? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's exactly what happened on Telltale as well. Like when Telltale collapsed, you know, there are a lot of employees saying, hang on, I just relocated like three months ago. You know, and that kind of stuff is like, you know, they're really two different ways you can look at it. There's the people like EA who they knowingly hire a big swell of people and then they basically expect to fire them again, which is a terrible business model.

And then you've got the tel-tale model where they hire a bunch of people and they know they're not going to be able to support them because no business analyst or no one who actually knows how to run a business suddenly runs out of money one day. They would have seen it coming a long time ago, but they just decide not to tell their stuff. So, you know, there's two different models there and they're both fucking suck ass. But that is the way it is at the the taughes, their thea the no stability and that's why game developers burn out of their own industry. Like some of the stats that I quote in that article, like game developers change jobs every 2.2 years or something. And here in Australia, like you know we could barely get one and four people to actually recommend the industry to a friend. They just don't do it. Like it's a hell industry. I mean I personally know people

who have left game development and just gone on to work at Hulo Packard or whatever. And you know, they've quadrupled their salary and then half the amount of time they have to work. Like it's a no-brainer, you know, why would you put yourself through this after a while? You got to say like this is taken took took took took th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi, like, like, like, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thru, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the thi's thi, thi, thi, to thi, to to to to to thr-a, to thr-a, to, thi, to, to, to, thi. And, to, to, to, to to to to their, like, like, their, through this after a while you got to say like this is taking too much of a toll like there's no reason for me to be here I'm a crazy person. Yeah, I'm like so that that sort of reminds me a bit of so very very recently I'm gonna get his name wrong here but Brian Bucklew I think who is one of the guys the guys that made the game Cavins of Koot, which is a very cool game. I would highly recommend checking that out. It's sort of like a 2D roguelike thing that's on Steam. It's been in early access for H's.

Come over to my house and show me how to play it good because little knows I've tried. If you can teach me while I'm teaching you, then that makes the world go around. And he posted exactly the same thing that you've just brought up where he said, well, if I go and work for an enterprise IT job, I could be earning four times as much as I do now. And I want to kind of like get to the reactions later, right? But I think, like, I'll just say that the people in his mentions going like, well, that's supply and demand, you big, dumb, okay, idiot, dip shit. Like, like, you're so close.

You're so, you're so, you're so close. You just, I just want you to, I just want you to just chew on that point a little bit, a little bit longer until you kind the real, th............ th, th, th, th, th, the real, th, the th, th, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, the, the, th.. And, th. And, th. And, the, the. And, the. And, the. And, thi. And, thi. And, to, thi kind of understand the real taste of kind of what it is. Yeah, and you know, like that's the, I think every game developer, it's easier for some game developers to move than others, you know, like that's one of the issues that a lot of them face. Like if you're just a programmer, I don't say just a programmer, I like to downplay it, but if you're a programmer, you go right ahead, you're a piece of scum of the earth. Who would, just human garbage? If you're a human garbage gollum programmer, you know, it's easier to transfer your skills to the enterprise IT workforce, right? But if you're like, if you're a game designer who's spent fucking six years, you know, refining your strategies

for developing like combat routines and, you know, working out all this stuff that that's really not applicable in the IT sector, you're kind of trapped. And those skills just don't transfer over super well. So there's a lot of people who are involved at a more, like, game-fied level level who don't have that ability and they're really a lot more reliant on the industry to kind of look after them because they don't have that safety net and then there's some of the people that we're trying to really reach out to. So you say yeah yeah you go. I was just gonna say I wasn't I'm trying to remember where I saw a piece recently about the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game the game they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're to to they're to to the to to say, I wasn't, I'm trying to remember where I saw a piece recently about

the game Sliam Rancher. Oh yeah, yeah, they limited their work hours deliberately. Yeah, and I'm kicking myself because I can't remember what publication it was, but part of what they were saying was, you know, they're going to start trying to make an effort to... That was Waypoint? Yeah. And yeah, they they they they they they they they, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, th, th, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Part, th, th, th, yeah. Part, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, th, they, they, they, they, they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're the the the the the the the the the to start trying to make an effort to... That was waypoint. Waypoint? Yeah. And yeah they were saying we're going to start making an effort not just to cover like the failings of the game industry but to highlight, to highlight individual cases of where people have shown that doing it correctly

can work. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this like segues neatly into dead cells which is something I was going to bring up. Oh yeah. You know which is like dead cells you know made up by like an almost an Anacus I guess it literally is an Anacus studio like at a co-op with no bosses yeah and making this like game that basically just sold I think 20 gillion copies and is the universally below? It's good numbers. Yeah, fucking big numbers. So like, you know, it really and like they themselves, you know, and we got to, you know, we got to provide some context here. Like they themselves said we don't think our studio model would work at the scale that a AAA company operates.

And that's fair, like, you know, there are definitely organizational challenges. But like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the their, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th.I.I.I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. But like, I think it should provide inspiration to people to say, listen, you don't have to do it the standard hierarchical top-down way at every company. It's not just for game development for any company in the world. Like, you don't have to have the same quiet little dictatorship. You can actually explore other models. And certainly, like, when you look at the success as excess, ta, ta, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, and, and, thi, and, thi, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tho. And, tha, tha, th models. And certainly, like when you look at the successive dead cells and slum rancher and stuff, it's like, you don't have to do it this way. You know, like, it's okay. Like, you can try other ways. It doesn't matter if the game is a month late or whatever.

I mean, there are obviously people dwelling on the very lowest levels of the internet, for whom it does matter if the game your game slightly where you figure this stuff out. Like it works a more sustainable model in the long run and the problem in the industry at the moment is is not sustainable. Well there's an interesting parallel that you kind of draw out in the in the article which like when you talk about you know potentially that sort of model not being scalable for a AAA game. It kind of makes me think of the parallel between like, you know, Disney and Marvel Studios making an Avengers movie, which would constitute, you know, thousands of people working on, you know, two hours of footage over the course of several years, versus, say, you know,

a really small indie movie with a, with a low budget and that sort of several years versus say you know a really small indie movie with a with a low budget and that sort of thing where conceivably you could say well conceivably you could say the really small group of people it would be much easier to say let's do this thing as a co-op or whatever although although by the same token like with a lot of small businesses it's a lot easier in those situations to say oh this thing's a labor of love and we're all gonna dig deep and you know do this unpaid overtime together and we'll all reap the benefits and then you know it does well and everybody else can fuck off and the person who fronted the most money gets

the benefits. Whereas whereas like yeah what was the interesting parallel that the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the situation the the the situation. the the the situation situation the situation the the situation. the situation. the situation. the situation. the situation. the situation. the situation is the situation situation situation situation situation the situation the situation the situation the situation. the situation. the situation. the situation is is is the situation. the situation. the the the the the the the the the the situation situation. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the.s.s. the. the. the. the. the. the the the. the. the the person who fronted the most money gets the benefits. Whereas, whereas like, yeah, what was the interesting parallel that you drew was that there are other industries like television and film, which are large collaborative products in media where everybody is unionized. Yeah, this is something I really wanted to get across in the article was you know like, and this is something that you know I had a full credit to Polygon this like that was actually in their pitch to me they were like listen you know we actually want to pitch you a story like we know there's a lot of unionized work around media you know can you do some ground work and you know find it their to their they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they their they're their they're they their their their their their to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their gon is unionion their box union and they're very aggressive internally a box

union has been doing some really good stuff so they understand how the you know media unionization process works and certainly you know one of the things that came out immediately on speaking to all these these people from various media unions like IATC and SAGFTA and stuff, was that, you know, these guys are just bewildered that anyone would think they're having these unique issues. Like, if you've been involved in the game unionization, I'm just going to use a word, discourse. You know, you always get told like, oh, you know, this industry is so unique, it's special, it's so magical, you know, the way the unions work won't apply here.

And then, you know, you get on the phone to these, I think, unions, and you say, and you're saying, oh, yeah, I'm dealing with crunch. And you say, oh, yeah, we're dealing with crunch. And you know, theymea, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the unions, the unions, the, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the, the way, the, the, the, the, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the waytoo. I'm like, oh, we're dealing with insecure contracts, like, oh, yeah, well, we're the same issues, you know, like, oh, it's short-term work. Oh, well, we're also doing short-term work. And, you know, like, it's all exactly the same. And yeah, you could conceivably find a parallel for anything that you were doing on a really big budget Hollywood movie?

100% like, you know, and that's what these guys were saying, they're like, well, we did this all the time, and we have strategies that work, you know, like we've developed a way of organizing health care in the US, for health care, where health care is a nightmare. You know, we've developed a way of organizing standard rates for hourly work contractors, you know, all this stuff. And like it's just lessons that the games industry, or not the industry, because the industry knows all the people in charge know, they know, but it's something that game workers themselves need to learn. They need to learn that they have kindered spirits in these other industries who know what they're going through and can offer them advice and support. And that's really what the article was all about is to say, look, it can work.

Like it's not impossible. Like, you know, admittedly there are things like, you know, you can't buy DLC for a movie, right? Not yet, anyway. You can buy collector's edition, the steel book, You can. And you should. You should definitely do that. Support your local Blu-ray store. But, like, you know, so you would have to work out like, oh, well, who gets the royalties in a particular DLC case? Like, is it the people who developed that particular bit of DLC? Or is everyone who's working get the DLC, you know, the royalties? So this obviously, like, there are some things you would have have to have to have th...... And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the, th. And, th. And, the, the, the, the, the, to, the, to, the, the, the, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the royalties, you know, so this obviously like, there are some things you would have to smooth out. Like, it's not a one-to-one transition, but it is a 99.99% overlap. And, you know, if the workers want to figure out those details, well, then they should just figure out the details. No one's going to make a model for them. It's not going to spring fully formed out of the ground. Togar. T. T. T. T. T. T. the, the, the, th. th. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. thrown. thrown. thrown. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. And, their. And, their. And, their is is is is, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their is, their, their, their is, their is, their is, their is not. And, their their thin. And, thoooooooooooooooooan. And, their their their their thooooooo. And, their is not is something that the workers are going to have to get around a table and say, how are we going to do this in a way that we want in a way that is most fair to us and then they're just going to have to do it.

Like that's how it's been done in every other industry forever. And game workers, you know, like a, this is something I really want to to take away. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. th. tho. tho. thi. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, they. And, the to. And, to. And, to. And, to. And, the the tha. And, the the the tho. And, the the tha. And, th you just have to dream it into being. You have to you have to say well maybe we don't have an idea about how DLC royalty payments you're going to work but you know what we'll fucking figure it out. Like we'll just do it. That's that's always like a really interesting thing to me about like when I see like stories in the news about a workplace being shuttered and a bunch of you know workers getting fucked over and you always see like comments on the news stories that are like oh where's this union now it's like well you need to talk to them you need toto like, like, just this weird thing of like,

oh, we had a, you know, we had a workplace with no union. None of us attempted to unionize. We didn't talk to the union about what they could possibly do to help us or anything. Yeah. We just had a completely union-free workplace. And then when we collapsed, we were like, how come the union wasn't there the whole time thum us from this. I remember that happened around the young that... Because... Yeah, sorry, aren't you kind of answering your own question? Like the union couldn't help you because you didn't unionize? This happened around that Fairfax. You remember when the Fairfax people went on strike? And there was that all those people who were writing like scab columns and one of them was like having this Twitter meltdown like oh the Media Alliance has never done anything for me

and someone was like are you a member and they're like of course not and it was just like well how weird then how weird this membership based organization didn't didn't help you but like you know that that's such a thing you know like and there are really two sides to that and one one of this is that a lot of people genuinely don't know that the union exist or what the union can do because they have a very hostile employer who works to keep them away from that knowledge. And the other people are just people who like cannot be bothered, being part of it until it's too late, until they actually personally need help. And certainly, and if you talk to any union officer in the country around the world,

they'll have a story of someone who hated the union forever, but when the shit finally hit the fan, they were like, oh, can you help me? You know, that there's something, like, in every workplace, there's someone like that. And you know they're in trouble. But a lot of the time, like legally and industrially speaking, you can't help them because it's too late and they should have been a member way before now that you would have actually had the power to help them. But yeah, those people are out there and you know, they you've got to build it and then you got to defend it.

Right? Like if you don't like something about your work, then change it. Like you have the power to change it. You just have to decide what you want it to be and then get everyone to agree with you and then you can build it to get everyone. And then you can build it together. And a lot of people th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to thi to to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the their their their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. the. the. their their the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to of accept, we learn from a very young age to accept the terms that are thrust upon us and we don't question them. But you know, being a union member is about saying, no, I'm not going to do it this way, I'm not going to do it that way, that's not good for me. That doesn't help me live a better life. I'm not going to do it your way, we're going to do it a different way. Like that's the fundamental core about what being a union member is all about. And it's, you know, it's a lesson that a lot of game develops in a particular need

to learn. Like, oh, the industry sucks. Well, fix it. And no one's going to do it for you. to be you. It's got to be you. guess what? You gotta fix it because fucking the CEO of E.A. is not gonna fix it. Like, he's doing just fine. There's a weird topical example of that kind of thing at the moment which is the government shutdown that's happening in

the states where I believe it's prohibited there to, um, to like, insight other workers to strike or do industrial action while the shutdowns happening. That wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, so you can't actually, like, organize what's happening. But it's, yeah, it's remarkable because obviously all these people are in this precarious position of, you have a job and you don't know when you're going to be able to work again and you're not getting paychecks or anything. And they have government staff that they can deem to be essential personnel who are then

compelled by law to go in and work without pay. And yeah, what's interesting with that is like all of the staff who work for like the TSA, like the airport staff and all that sort of stuff, all these different people, if just all of them at the same time just said, nope, we're done, nobody's coming in work until you guys sort this out. It would be sorted out like that day. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, because, because, like, you know, the airports in the country would grind to a stop. And this is what we did, you know, like, this is what we did as societies, like, decades ago, you know, we've like forgotten how now, there's a lot of different reasons why that is but like you're exactly right, you know, we've we used to be able to just stop things until we got what we wanted,

but we've forgotten how to do that. And that's what we're trying to really build up is that memory of, you know, hang on a second, we are the mechanism that power society so why don't we change society to what we want using that power we have you know But then you know you get to the Fairwood Commission saying you're not allowed to go on strike because it would cost too much money Well, I saw I saw people arguing about this in um I saw people arguing about this online where somebody was saying oh, you know all these people should strike and then, you know, all these people should throo, they'd th th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tho. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their should strike and then, you know, the thing would get sorted out. And somebody replied, you know, oh, or they'd all get fired, you know, how's that help anybody if they all get fired by the government? And I just found myself thinking like, do you know, do you actually believe for a moment that the government would say, oh, we're just going to fire all government employees, all the employees of like the TSA.

Yeah, just get rid of all. I was saying, like, I said to this person, how long do you think it would take them to then go through the process of recruiting enough people to replace all of those people, training all of those people, starting them all off at work again, you're talking about weeks, if not months before you could even do stuff like, get your airports functioning again. With like people standing at the security scanners. And the reality is that, you know, faced with that choice of you can sign some bills and open the government back up and get these people their paychecks, or you can just not have government workers for these agencies, they would have to go with th th th th th th to th to to to to th to th to go like to go to go the their their to go to go their their their their their their their their their tho the government back up and get these people their paychecks or you can just not have government workers for these agencies. They would have to go with the obvious one.

Yeah, exactly. And that extends to any employer like anywhere, you know, like, I think, I think, I think, like the thing that a lot of game workers and all workers in general, except in the very, very unionized blue collar workers, I'm just, you know, workers, except in the very, very unionized blue collar workers I would think. But generally, it's like, there's this lack of understanding that, like, you don't even need to formally join the union or to start taking collective action work. Like, you don't need to sign a form, you don't need to, like, even know who your union is, to all get up and walk out of the fucking building when something happens that is wrong. Like that's been happening for literally hundreds of years like longer that kind of like mass, you know, worker movement. And it's like you don't need to wait for the union to come along like you and your mate and his mate you can all just get up and walk out of the fucking building and you can shut the whole place down anytime you want like you know

you don't you don't need to wait around just just do it if you do that in a game studio though where where like there's real stuff on the line how am I gonna get titty physics in my copy of Dead or Alive. Oh, look, you know, I think if you really cared about the game developers, Theo, you would just put up with static hovering breasts like the rest of us. I will never put up with static titties. That's right. All these advances in GPU physics and we have to deal with titties that don't bob around.

Look, that's going to deal with titties that don't bob around. Look, that's, you know, take one for the workers there. I kind of want to come back to that stuff because, so to say it, because you're morning. That's right, the tea physics. How do they work? Well, very carefully. But the thing like that struck me as the parallel example, that maybe, and I'm interested in your thoughts,

interesting your thoughts on this, that maybe might be a model that may see some success, is I feel like in the last two, two or three years in America, we've seen a vast unionization of whole journalism, like floors, basically. Whole offices of journalists in America. All very rightly unionizing because they've had absolutely shitty shitty horrific conditions while you know the whole whole thing goes out of business and the person people at the top are thoroughly enriched the whole time. Do you do you see that as like a as a parallel model that that

may see some some traction in in game dev? Yeah I definitely like I think a lot of the smaller studios are definitely going to follow that model like of just creating small local unions and you know then affiliating with a larger union like the the model they have in America is very different you know to how it is here in terms of union shop and and you know union cards and forcing the Boston negotiating stuff is very different but certainly I think what they're doing with places like box union and and vice union and and there's like a thrillist union and all kinds of unions now. Like I think gameworkers should be looking at that and saying, you know, we can fucking do this for sure. Like, these are places that have not, you know, we're talking about young, relatively digital, very flexible, you know, like stuff that wouldn't be considered your traditional blue collar union heartland and they're fucking doing

it, you know, they're not waiting around, they're doing it. And it's getting results, like it's making for more secure contracts, it's making for better rates of pay, it's making for like sexual harasses and abusers being turfed out or prosecuted, like it's getting results, you know, and I think game work workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers workers their workers their workers their workers their workers their workers their their th, like, like, th, th, thi workers thi workers thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th, you th, th, th, th, th.. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, th. And, thin, th. And, thin, thin, thin, and thin, thin, I think game workers should be looking at that and taking notes. Did everybody see the news about BuzzFeed today? Yeah, the layoffs. Yep, they're cutting 15% of their workforce and yeah, I saw somebody saying, you know, if there's one take away from this, it's that, you know, any, any CEO, whoever says, oh, well, you know, we're not the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind th th th th ki, ki, ki, ki, ki, ki ki ki ki ki ki ki ki ki thy thy thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi from this, it's that, you know, any CEO whoever says, oh, well, you know, we're not the kind of company that really needs to have a union. I was going to bring up that in life thing.

Yeah, they don't give a fuck about you. No, the difference is they, they healy into the mood, to the meeting where they fire everybody. Like, hey, like, what's up, um, fellow cool people? Uh, get your shit and leave. I think from memory, I can't remember right now, but I think the BuzzFeed CEO like made a special emergency trip back from the, uh, to the UK or something, when the officer started talking about unionizing, like he jumped on his private jet and just like blasted over there at top speed to start talking about how unionizing wasn't the their their their............. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, th. thi. Uh, thi, th. th. Uh, to, th. Uh, to, th. th. Uh, to, th. Uh, th. Uh, th. Uh, th. Uh, th. So, th. So, th. So, th. So, th.. So, th.. So, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. thi. thi. thi. thi. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. ed over there at top speed to start talking about how unionizing wasn't very important to all the sort of thing. Hey, we'll get a table of fresh muffins. Yeah, it's like we'll bring puppies into the office. Yeah, it's like you know that's that's the thing like it doesn't matter. Everyone talks the same thing. Oh yes, this was in December 2016. Just using the old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the old. the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the th. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. We'll. we. we. We. We. We. We. we. We. We. We. We. we. th. th. th. ta. th. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta search function on Twitter. But like, you know, he's saying, oh yeah, and I don't think a union isn't the best interest

of BuzzFood or employees or whatever. And it's like cool, dickhead. Like, nothing changes, you know, it doesn't matter what industry you're in, the boss doesn't want you unionizing, like, because they know that that gives you control that they don't want you to have the their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, is.e, is, is, is, is, ishomene, ishueue.e.e.e.ruofofe, throoomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, tooomorrow, their, their, their, their of the matter is that when you unionize, you have power and the boss doesn't. And that's what they don't want that for obvious reasons. They hate that shit. So, but you know, like you have that power anyway, it's just about whether or not you use it. That's what the workers need to understand.

One crazy trick, workers are workers, the workers, the workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers, workers that drives bosses crazy. Um, all right. We're an onion on your balls got to work. Bosses fucking hate that. Just the smell. Well, it keeps the vampires away, don't that? Hey! Oh, hey. Oh, hey.

I feel like the same chemicals present in all of them. Sure. It's probably mildly irritating to them at least. That's right. But so writing and posting this sort of thing on a gaming news site where people can comment, there's like a point, right? And Ben, you're probably more if they with this stuff, but you write the article and you post it. And when you're scrolling down the screen, there's a point when, the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thir, thi, thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thir, thir,, right, and Ben, you're probably more Ophay with this stuff, but you write the article and you post it, and when you're scrolling down the screen, there's a point when the part where someone was professionally paid to form opinions, research them, write them down

in a way that doesn't seem absolutely nuts. And then they post that online. And there's a point where that stops, but then the scroll bar keeps going. And what's under that? If you can just describe that to our listeners. Well, we took out the comment section, which I think was a great idea. But that's only because all comments moved to Facebook now. And it's not good.

Like occasionally. Like as a rule. So generally, my experience would be somewhat different here because I mean you're writing an article about unionizing that is on a thing read by gamers and gamers 90% of the time have hardcore libertarian politics and also brain disease. My problem is that uh... You're writing articles exclusively about how Bigfoot is Pan. Yes.

To an audience of people that would much, much rather read about the Royals spilling tea about other Royals. So most of the time... Did they spill some tea? I mean probably. Has there been royal beef? There's been stuff. I don't know. I'm at a very good... Do we have royals at the moment?

There's like a bunch of them and they're doing shit all the time. But it works... This has been the royal wrapper. Yeah, that's it. There's been two, all right, actually. A little sidebar. I saw two stories in last week, which was obviously one where whichever of the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old the old old old old old old old old old old old the old the old the old old old old old old old the old. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. sidebar. I saw two stories in last week, which was obviously one where whichever of the old arse princes are still alive. Is it Philip? Prince Philip crashed his car that he was driving. He's 980 years old. He was entirely of psoriasis.

He was dazzled by the sun. He was dazzled by the sun and he crushed his, it crashed his like four ton armored Land Rover. Uh, and then the other store ass or was it someone snapped the Queen driving, I believe this was a rain driver, uh, without a seat belt on, but she was in the car by herself. Uh, which I didn't know the Queen was allowed to drive? Who's gonna tell us, you can't? I, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they. Yeah, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. Yeah, their, their, th th th thi thi thi's thi's thi's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thui, thui, thoom, thoom's, thoom!! thui, thui, thui, thui, thui, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi's thi's thi's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi.ed thi's, thi's, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii's, thiii's, thi.ea, thi.ed allowed to drive. Who's going to tell us you can't? I guess. Yeah, damn. But anyway, sorry, that's the Royal sidebar. But the point is... This has been Royal Watch.

Most of the time, it's like someone just like replying to pedestrian saying, this is boring, and then I just reply, shut up for the pedestrian account. And it's wonderful. But you probably that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thoe, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoooooooooo' is. their th. th. th. th. th. th get 150 likes and then they quietly delete their account and it's wonderful but you probably had a very different experience if you read the comments at all the this one was actually kind of gratifying so the comments themselves on the Polygon piece were not great but there was one guy on Twitter in particular who was like oh yeah show me one industry that unions are and then like was that where that tweet came from?

I don't, I mean, let's be honest, we all make a lot of tweets here. Oh boy. So like you'll have to narrow it down. But this guy just got absolutely just wrecked by a bunch of people just swooping in to point out all the various industries that unions of course have benefited and it was just delightful. But you know, I think honestly like the tide is turning on this issue. So the comments are not as bad as it could have been.

They certainly weren't as bad as when I read about steam like last year and people were like, oh so steam is the reason they're rich and poor in the world and I'm like, are you, what? What? Did you like bang your head in a car door on the way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way to to to to to to to to to your to to to to to to to to to a card or on the way to your computer? I don't understand how to engage with you. But yeah, it actually wasn't super awful, but they definitely are like a bunch of wacky dipshits in the comments who would like just, you know, like literally arguing that they don't care about the suffering of workers as long as games prices stay the same. And they're released on time. If this causes us to be like it to to to to to to to to be like it to be like it to be like it to be like it to be like it to be like to be like to be like to be like to be like to be like to be like to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It the. It the. It the. It the. to the. to the. to the. the. It's the. It's actually the. It's actually the. It's the. It's the. It's the same. And they're released on time as well.

Like I said, if this causes us to be like, it to be delayed by like a month, then it hasn't all being worth and I'm like, just shut up, shut up. Why are you getting to your games? Is it these people lose their mind about a game being delayed by a month when the passage of time is racing by in my life so fast that I have constantly terrified.

I will find myself being like, oh it'll be nice when Blade Runner 2049 comes out. I'm like, oh, it was two years ago now, what the fuck? No, it wasn't. You still haven't seen it. Year and a half. It is incredible. Please watch Blade. that. I keep having the same experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience experience the same same same same same same same same same same same same same. 2049 there was no chance that it was going to be as good as it was but he is

I keep having same experience Ben of going oh that that album that just came out and then I look at it's from like 2013 yeah oh no if the year starts with two zero it's recent yes that's it we were all adults at the time and that's all that matters I don't wish to hear any evidence of the contrary I think maths the thinks I thinks it th th thi thin thi thi thin I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thin I thin I the the the the the the the the the the thi the the thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee adults at the time, and that's all that matters. I don't wish to hear any evidence of the contrary. I think maths is entirely subjective. It's probably the most subjective of the sciences. It's true. I don't think they've really nailed it down yet. No, the jury is still out on science in general. and 13 was yesterday to me. And that's how it is.

I liked a polygon posted a link to your article on Twitter. And I was looking at some of the replies and one of the people was like, no fucking way. I will do whatever it takes. I will never join a union, and I will do whatever it takes to protect my rights from them in the workplace. And I was like, why the fuck do you think think th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, theeean, thin, thin, thin, thin, thean, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi and I was like, why the fuck do you think you have rights in the workplace? How do you think you got any workplace rights in the first place?

And also if you're working, you know, 100 hours in a week, if you're working seven days a week for like 18 months in a row, and you had to move across the country to get there and then at the end, you will have nothing and you will be left with the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to the to be to be to be to be to be the right with their their the right with the country to get there and then at the end you will have nothing and you will be left with no severance pay. What rights exactly are you fighting to keep? There's a lot of people like in that particularly deranged bucket who just, like they've got this idea that if their work is unionized, you know, it's ruined their great dream of storming into the boss's office and flexing really wildly and getting a 5% pay rise by everyone else.

If everyone else gets 5% pay rise, then I mean, that's just, I mean, you're just another one of the jackasses instead of the genius, the very industry that you must surely be. Yes, and exactly correct. And that's like, there's so many people like that. And it's like, and I've had people tell that to me about my day job as well. You know, like, you know, I work for the union that the handles meat processing. And like, if you think you can go into the boss's office and like, you know, show him a particularly like a great bit of work you did on a joint on the cow and he just gives you a pay rise, you're

a fucking lunatic. Like you're a fucking moron. Like it just does not happen. You know, but I've had these people tell me like, oh, you should be getting a 10% pay rise every year. And like, what? What? Oh, you know, if if th. If th. If you, if you you, if if you th. If you, if you th. If th. If th. If th. If their, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if you their, their, their, th. th. th. their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. today, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their,? How? Like, what? You know, if you've got skills and then you should expect your pay to go up 10% every year. Like, sorry. I think, I think, like, the only times that that sort of thing I think is ever applicable is in the kinds of jobs where you can either, A, like, demonstrate to them conclusively that you are making more money for them than somebody else would be otherwise. And most people are not in a position in their job where you can actually like...

We're very rare. Well, it's, yeah, it's like a lot of that sort of stuff is more for, is more for like incentive-based work, like sales and all that sort of shit. So things where you can really directly attribute income to thi th somebody than somebody than some than some than somebody than some than some than somebody than somebody than some than somebody than somebody than some than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than some than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than somebody than than somebody than some than some than some than some than some than some than than some than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than than tho thi tho th like sales and all that sort of shit so things where you can really directly attribute income to the company to your performance yeah and more often than not you know that that doesn't come with raises it comes with bonuses it comes with bonuses and those things are very very frequently conditional and so so but this does kind of bring me back around to something that we did talk about when you were last on and you do kind of

such one in the article which is that you know there are a lot of people in the game development community who look at themselves as as the I was saying you know captains of industry and individuals and people who got there on their smarts and their abilities. And there is something about that that really, there's something about the idea of banding together with other people in the workplace that challenges that idea for them. Oh yeah, very much so. The challenge is the idea that, you know, if you're all working together and if you're all all saying the the the the th the th the th th the th th the the th th th the th th so. The challenge is the idea that you know if you're all working together and if you're all saying hey we are all of value to this company then it's like you know all of a sudden you're diminishing your own value by doing that. Except as you're saying

maybe that would be different if the reality was that you were a person who could walk into your boss's office and say, check out the fucking texture on the balls of this horse. You shout in his face. You know, and he immediately says, oh, give you a 20% pay rise, just keep working on those balls. Just kranking out the balls. Keep massaging those balls into ever greater states of fidelity. But that doesn't really happen. No, it doesn't happen.

Particularly in a lot of those environments where they work really, really hard for there to be no kind of standardized salary they will actively punish people for disclosing their salaries to each other. Yeah. All of those things. So you could have yourself convinced. Ooh, I went in there and I played hardball and I got this great rate. You don't fucking know if the person sitting next to you's making twice as much money as you. Exactly. And you know, like that's one of the great advantages of like working in the blue-color fields of them, you know, when you have these these site-wide agreements, you know exactly what everyone's getting, you know, like it really builds a sense of

solidarity and comradeship because there's no, there's no doubt at all about whether you're doing well or not, like it really makes you understand your place in the hierarchy of the organization. Yeah, as well as- And you don't have that in games or any other white collar work. It's all very hush-hush and meritocracy driven. I think like Andrew touch, might have been Andrew toucester on it earlier as well as like an as a marginalized person working in games, you might have the super mega-shitty experience,

like served up on a platter. Whereas people under an EBA, like you said, you know that everybody's being paid the same thing. If you're in that position, you're getting that paid, because you're qualified to be in that position. If you weren't good enough to do that job, you wouldn't be in that position. And that goes doubly for, that are marginalized, who would be traditionally in a private kind of captains of industry kind of scenario paid less due to either conscious or unconscious

bias. Right? Like it is a net good for society. And it's, and you know, I think as as you've shown you know in a bunch of examples it's a net good for the person in that seat as well unless you happen to be in the boss's seat. Yeah exactly and one of the things that like we touched on the article is to raise herd immunity but like there are tons of studies showing that even if you're not personally a union member, like having a strong union at your work site lifts the wages for everyone because like the workers are acting collectively, even if you're not involved. It's, it works like a vaccination, you know, like if you have enough people doing it, everyone gets better and stronger. You don't, obviously you should join the union if there's one takeaway message, but like, you know, even if you don't, you shouldn't be out there shitting on the union

because just by the union being there, you benefit just from its nearby presence like a fucking area effect. And that's, I think, a really interesting point that a lot of, know die-hard wacky libertarian meritocratists don't want to like acknowledge is that you know even the very presence of a union nearby actually makes their job better even if they're not personally involved and you know I just think that was a really interesting point now we probably need to take some of our questions. Some of our questions from listeners. What do these listeners give you money every month? Disgusting.

Not these, not these ones. These are the free listeners. God damn free loaders. Could be anyone. But the Patrions, I think, like a union, they make. They have an area of effect where they do make this show a lot better, I think like a union they make, they have an area of effect where they do make this show a lot better I think so thank you the person that paid for this show. Well I'm one of your patrons so cheers.

I'm not thinking anyways. Hmm. Fred of the show, uh, Rob, patron says, Tim, any tips for beating the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time, I'm too soft for beating the water temple in ocarina of time I'm too soft brain for these dang puzzles man the water temple fucking sucks I'll tell you that much for free the water temple no I don't because I remember even as a child like that being the one I always got stuck on but one bit of advice is that when you come up against Shadowlink just get out your fucking hammer use the hammer so you can just the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th the th the th th th th th th th th th th is th. the the th. th. the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. te. the. I'm the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I I I th. I te is just just just te is just just te is just te. I te. I's tea. tea. teaughea tea tea. tea. tea.ea. tea. tea. tea. te's against Shadow Link, just get out your fucking hammer. Use the hammer.

Shadow Link doesn't have a hammer so you can just whip the shit out of him with a hammer and he's like, oh no, and he just dies. And the other thing I think people get stuck on a lot is you want to raise the water level once and then go and check in the central towar. There's a block that floats up and and it and it and it and it and it and it and it and it and it and it th and it's up and it's up and it's up and it's that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's that's that's tho tho. that's that's that's got tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. the the tho. the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the the th is the the the the the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is the is the is think that's the key that people miss most often. Wisdom. Hmm. Huh. Let's see, a friend of the show, Flashman says, Tim, where should I take my wife on a date

in Newcastle? Oh, well, great question. You shouldn't. You should go to Hamilton instead. Hamilton is the suburb adjacent to Newcastle and it's much nicer. It has a lovely wide street with dozens and dozens of lovely cafes and restaurants all scattered everywhere and it's extremely delightful. Extremely highly recommended. There you go. Don't go to Newcastle. Uh, friend of the show. Now, look, this person has attached a post script here, and I'm

going to read that first, okay. Oh, this is the whole they say, by the way, Andrew, you've asked a few times how to pronounce my name. I've always said it as Sathius. So I've already fucked up this person's name on the bonus episode. No, because you're fucking it up in the future because we recorded a bonus episode first. Sathius lover of the show, a person whose name I, get ready for two days from now when I fuck up your name on the bonus episode.

Sathia says, hi Tim, what is the best way to show support for the unionization of the games industry as a consumer. I end up buying the the th fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fu. I up in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in th in th in th in th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th you you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you you in in in in you in you in you in you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you because you because in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in th in th in th in th in th in th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. that th. th. the f you're fucking the fucking the fucking the f you're fucking the f- fucking the f-up f-up f best way to show support for the unionization of the games industry as a consumer? I ended up buying Red Debt Redemption too because I didn't want Rockstar employees to miss out on bonuses. That and I wanted the game of course, but sometimes it feels like a losing situation each way. Yeah, it's a good question. There are quite a few ways, and certainly like I don't want anyone to to'm judging them for being a scab or whatever if they buy redid redemption. Like you know, you, like if you're going to draw lines on participating in a capitalist economic system, you're going to have a bad time.

As our friend Sonic the H. John tells us of course, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. But like there are definitely a number of ways that you can support it. I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi' thi' thi' thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're thi. I thi. I the. I theeateateateateateateateateateateateateate. theateateate. the. I the. I thi no ethical consumption under capitalism. But there are definitely a number of ways that you can support it. I think the biggest way that you can support any game workers just to start sharing these stories and talking to your fellow game as about exactly what the situation is like and not immediately leaping to the defense of these massive billion dollar corporations that don't need you to widen for them. Take the side of the workers, start making their voices heard, you know, destroy the social media channels of these companies with their stories and with their examples, and you know, use the power you have as the consumer to make sure that the companies know this the biggest issue that matters to you. you. to you. to you. to you to you to you to you. to you to you th, you th, you th. thi. thi. thi. their thi. thi. their, their, their, their, their, you their, you, you thi. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. thi. their. their. And, their. And, thi. And, their. And, their, their, their, their. And, thii. And, thiii. And, toguu. And, toguu. And, today, ta. And, ta. And, ta. And, ta. And, ta. And, ta. And, ta. that the companies know this is the biggest issue that matters to you.

You know, we have a pamphlet out on our website at gameworkers.com that are you and you click on the resources page. We have some ideas about what people can do, but you know, it's certainly just treat it like any other consumer issue. Write an angry letter, you know, share a story. So like, you know, toto buy games if the industry actually calls for a boycott. Just you know, treat it like a consumer issue and you won't go far wrong. But like, it's not a problem to buy Reddit redemption. I don't think anyone's going to get mad at you and certainly we do want those developers to get those bonuses, although, you know, not all the developers are going to get bonuses, certainly some of them, because rock-sts the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the developers are going to get bonuses, and some of them is Rockstar's a bad developer. But you know, it is the system and we have to change the system,

but for now that's how it is. So, you know, don't worry about it, say this. Keep doing your thing. We've got a, we've got time for a couple more here. Friend of the show, Dominic says, could you please talk about that thing where the makers of Fall Out New Vegas, Obsidian Entertainment, missed out on bonus pay because the game's Metacritic score wasn't high enough because that's still one of the most atrocious fucking practices I've ever heard of. That's still going. That practice is ongoing. You know, and you know, like I don't have a really insightful takeaway there other than that fucking sucks ass. And, but what I can say is that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that. That is that. That is that is that is that is th, th, th, th, thus that is that is the sort that is that is the sort that is that is that is that is that is that is th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that is the the the thunenene is the thune is thune is thune is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is the that is the the the the the the the the the the the that is the the that is the that is that is that. that. that. that. that. that. that. thi. thi. that. thi. that. that. thi. that. thi. takeaway there other than that fucking sucks ass. But what I can say is that that is the sort of thing that if you had a highly unionized studio would never fucking get signed.

Like any game studio or studio filler developers should reject those kind of terms. And the only way to have the power to reject those kind of terms is to unionize. Can I just mention that their threshold was a metacritic score of 85? They got a metacritic score of 84. Yes, that's right. I would burn the place down. That alone should be a catalyst for unionizing. It's just like that's such a fucking raw deal. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that's, that's, that's, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that It's just like that's such a fucking raw deal. But you know, that's like that's how it is in the industry.

And it has continued that there are plenty of contracts now that need a 90 Metacritic school. 90. You know, like that's pretty fucking rare. And that's because, you know, I mean, we can go to a whole other kettle of fish about why the whole review score system, MediCritic is bad. But the fact that Medicritic exists and is used as a benchmark for awarding people food that they might need to buy, sorry, money to buy food or medicine is really bad. But the only way the game dolehops are going to have the power to change that is if they all unionize. Like, because it doesn't matter to the publishers, they're going to use, they're going to dangle that carrot and hit you with the stick anyway. So, you know, once again, there really is only one way forward to stand together and say, fuck you. Hmm. Sweet precious. Sweet precious loveer the thour-S th. th. S s s s s s so. tho. tho. So. So. Se. Se. Se. Se. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. They. They. They. They. They. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They're they're they're they're they're they're going they're going they're going they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're they're they're they're they're they're going. They're going. They're going. They're going they're going the their to to their their their their going going they're going they're going they're going they're going they're going they're going they're someone who stopped working in the game industry

largely because of my poor experience with employees and colleagues who are socially backward libertarians resistance a change in the workplace I ask what strategy do you suggest to get socially backward libertarians resistance to change in the workplace on board with organizing or even actively working to enforce the minimum legal conditions we already have yeah look that's the fucking million dollar question, isn't it? Um, that's... I've been working to organize game workers for, I know, maybe a year and a half now,

and it is, like, there are plenty of people, everyone has a different angle, right? And this is true for any kind of organizing work. Everyone has a different angle that works for them. You know, you might find, you'll find that same attitude even in blue-collar work. I know a ton of people in various meat processing plants at my patch who have that attitude. Everyone has an angle that works for them and it's just a matter of finding it. Like, as difficult as it is to become friends with someone who's a libertarian who doesn't care about the fact that poor people are starving to death. Like, they are not going to listen to a head-on approach and you have to kind of work away at them and come from a more friendly or emotionally driven angle that makes them understand the suffering the other people are going through

and trying to get them to empathize with it. Like it's the traditional organizing tactics tactics tactics tactics tactics tactics tactics tactics tactics ta tactics ta thicicicicicicicic tha thi tactics thi tactics thi thi thi the other people are going through and trying to get them to empathize with it. Like, it's the traditional organizing tactics don't work on those people because they are just not willing to see any connection between themselves and others. So you have to build the connection first, and that's the hard part. So the answer is your question, it is fucking hard. And those people are are are thap people are thap not unwinnable it just takes time because they're much more removed from the

necessary mindset that others have. And for a final question from a friend of the show Michael Michael asks Tim are you against loot boxes and if so why do you hate artistic expression? I just hate art so much. Like I ask. Every time I see a loot box, I just, I think my kid could do that. But in fact, my kid would buy that because loot boxes are gambling and I'm very much against them. I don't, you know, like personally I think loot boxes are gambling.

And I wish going to get rid of them. But because they are gambling, they make tons of money, so gay and loophers don't want to get rid of them. But I, like, it's one of those things where I have seen some people argue that gay and the looboxes are necessary because they help provide like long-tail profits to studios so they can employ more people. This is a kind of specious argument. Like, obviously you want people to be employed, but if the circumstances under which the money for employment is gained a pretty fucking questionable, you know, that that's really on the workers to stand up and say, look, we don't want our industry to be like this, you know, like at some point in time, workers have to say, like, our industry is doing a bad thing and we have to, we have to, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're to, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not to, we're not to, we're not to, we're not to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be some point in time, workers have to say, like, our industry

is doing a bad thing and we have to, we're not going to be a part of it. And you know, like, whether that's like continuing to use like coal-driven energy as the planet incinerates around us, or whether that's like, you know, the coast guard, like, throwing refugee children into the sea. Like at some point you have to say, okay, yes, these people will need jobs, but the jobs they are doing are actively bad and we have to figure out a way to kind of use our collective power to disengage. And I certainly think that's something that the game developing community should be doing with loop boxes is like, you know, when they do get a unionization efforts on other ground saying like listen we're not we're going to all stand together and say we're not going to be a part of this exploitative practice anymore that

you know readys children for a life of gambling like and I think that's something that that's a conversation that people need to be having because yes it does provide long-tailed profits it does keep people employed but let's be real the vast majority of those profits are not going towards wages. And secondly, you know, if you're getting those profits by teaching people to gamble, then that money is tainted and it's probably not good. There you have it, gambling, it's bad. There you hate it. There's art.

I hate art. I hate art. Well, thanks very much for being with us Tim. You're very welcome. Always really appreciate it. Of course people can check out that piece on Polygon. They can find Tim on Twitter at Burger Drome. And where else can they find your writing and such? That's about it but I would plug GameWorks Game Workers Unite, which is what, you know, the organization that I'm working with at the moment. And that is, you can find us the Australian version at Game Workers.com that are you, or you can find the international kind of umbrella organization at Game Workers Unite.

And you know, that's, come and join us, join the the mailing list etc if you're a game developer we will be active this weekend although I don't know when the podcast is going out so if you hear the podcast travel back to Friday and then travel to the global game jams in Sydney and Melbourne where your time traveling body will be met by us who will be active on the ground at these events and holding little workshops and stuff. where your time traveling body will be met by us, who will be active on the ground at these events and holding little workshops and stuff. If you are a game developer and you have questions and about what you're entitled to,

you actually are entitled to minimum rates and conditions. They do exist, we can tell you about them. So come and say hello and we'll do what we can to help you out. Well, and of if you are a game developer in a in a studio and you're trying to unionize then get in touch. Get in touch with them. There's chapters all around the world so just just fucking just reach out. All righty Ben we haven't heard much from you today would you like to leave us with a positive and or meditative thought. Oh. Um. us with a positive and or meditative thought. Oh, um, have a nap this week.

Even if you're not normally a napper. Just let yourself drift off. Don't even necessarily have a sleep. I just want you, it's going to be fucking hot as shit on whatever day you have off. Find somewhere comfortable to lie down. Just don't do anything. Just close your eyes. Drift off if you can, if you can't, just sort of let you just doze, just dozing. Yeah, give yourself a couple hours and don't fucking be like, oh fuck, you know, I'm gonna half an hour and then back to it. Don't do that. Don't plan anything after it. Just fucking Give yourself that little time to just really, really, really, really switch off. It'll do you some good. Yeah, a siesta. And plus, because you can't fucking

sleep at night anyway, because of this shitty heat, you may as well try and get some sleep during the day. Yeah. As always folks, you can support the show and keep it ad free and all that kind of jazz and get an extra episode every week by going to Patreon.com forward slash Bunto Vista and Subscribing if that's what you're into if not, it's fine. It's no big deal. We don't feel personally rejected. None of us are gonna cry in bed tonight. Some of us might be about that. It won't be about that. Good for it. Yeah. It's just just just th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that's just th th th th th th th. th th thi th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th th. th. th. th th th th th th th. th th. thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi to to thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. tonight. Some of us might be about that. It won't be about that. It won't be about that. Yeah. It's just standard bedtime practice. Yeah, just regular bed. I mean how else are you going to get tired enough to go to sleep. So, uh, thank you again Tim. You're you're now tied. You're now tired. You're now tired. You know, you might be able to get it get over that line this year you know

I look forward to it well you know Matt and I live in the same I work in the same city so you know going over there and get a baton and like just smack him in the knee take him out of the game all right I'll do it get him in his podcast as knee so watch yourself so shout out to Matt V Brady and we'll see you guys next week. Bye. See you. you to be the tree to the to

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