Boonta Vista - EPISODE 84: A Poxon Both Your Houses (Featuring Jeremy Poxon)

Episode Date: February 5, 2019

Andrew, Ben and Theo are joined by writer and anti-poverty campaigner Jeremy Poxon to talk about welfare rights and economic justice in Australia and why we shouldn't let the Labour Party off the hook if they win government. Find Jeremy on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/JeremyPoxon Check out the Australian Unempolyed Workers Union at: https://twitter.com/AusUnemployment *** Support our show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Merchandise available at: boontavista.com/merchandise *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Flutavista. I'm Andrew. I'm here as always with my beautiful blonde molleted friend Ben. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. How is your gorgeous mullet? I'm good. How is your gorgeous mullet? Uh, I don't want to paint an awful picture for the listener, but it's fucking gross right now. I just, I spent a large portion of the day just sort of passing in and out in the heat over the top of an orbital sander and I am, have not showered yet out of laziness. I'm very sweaty and I'm covered in sawdust and it is in every part of my body. I look like shit, I feel great. Cool.

Nothing like a hard day of work. Well, it wasn't that hard. It was not that long. And then I finished the sanding and I realized that I had horrendously fucked up very, very early on in the planning process of the coffee table that I'm making, and I cannot attach the bottom half to the top half. So I kind of took the rest of the afternoon off to cry a little bit. Fundamental error, really? You got to... Hey, here's a bit of advice for you. Uh, measure twice, cut once. You know what? I always think about that, because a character in Neuromancer says that that book theo has never finished some no I finished Neuromancer I thought he said you did my no no it's good I will take off that

you know silent crunch I've been holding against you for ages goodness gracious a great book and of course here is the man who has finished William Gibson's Neuroman so I bet you get a safe log finished finished finished finished his stir-fry. He finished, both William Gibson's Neuromancer and his stir-fry. It's Theo. It's Theo. That I was eating right up until the point we started recording and then about 30 seconds after as well.

Yeah. It's Theo. Hey. Hello. Hello. We are joined by our good friend of the show Jeremy Poxson. How are you? Good gentlemen, how are you? I think we're all pretty good and all pretty sweaty. It's a heat wave baby. We're all stuck to our horrible leather chairs.

Yeah, making gross squeaky noises as we shift from cheek to cheek. I think that's just you. I'm almost certain that's just you. Mine's upholsted in a sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the the the 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 70s. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the. the. the. the the. the theeeeee. the theeeee. the the the. the the. the. the. th from cheek to cheek. I think that's just you. I'm almost certain that's just you. Yeah, mine's upholsted in a sort of 70s fabric. It's not really a leather type deal. That sounds nice. No, I think it might have had bed bugs when we got it. I've been using my $8 per fortnight, uh, Settling energy supplement to blast my $20-i fan full blow at my face.

So that's how I'm getting through the heat wave surviving, doing good. And they sell everything at Aldi, don't they? Absolutely, that middle, that middle section, that 20 foot, lucky dip. They lift it in on a pallet and the forklift and they just dump it there and who knows what you're going to find. I go over there sometimes at lunchtime just to pick up like some UHT milk, some cheap coffee pods for the old office job. It's just always a little crowd of mystery seekers, you know, pouring around the middle.

No matter what time of the day you go over there. They're over there. People really do go nuts for that shit. I remember like one time when I was in uni for some reason they're one of their random central portion objects was like horrible guitar pedals and I had like just bought a guitar. No way. You know what I really need? I need a $14 Aldi overdrive pedal. And then I went to like three Aldi's around the city and they had all already sold. That was like the day that they got the men. People just fucking, whatever it is, they'll do it.

It's probably for the best that you didn't wind up with a $14 dollar the overdrive panel. So Jeremy joins us today to have a bit of a chat about some of the work he's been doing recently around, I guess, what's the best way to describe it around, suppose issues that affect unemployed people, welfare recipients and just broadly speaking, the Australian governments, that you don't, that you don't that you do that's that you didn't wind that... that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. that that the don? don? don't don't don't don't do do do that that that that that that that that's that that that's that that that that that that that that unemployed people, welfare recipients and just broadly speaking, the Australian government's atrocious treatment of those people. Yeah, that's about, that's a fair way to characterize it. That's about right, yeah, you know, I try to call myself a welfare rights advocate or activist,

which, you know, sounds like a weird thing to be, you know, for some people, especially some people who still like to think that we're, you know, living in a, you know, a kind of fair go paradise, but sadly, you know, especially over the last five years, you know, Australia has really developed one of the nastier social security systems in the OECD. So myself as part of, so I'm part of the Australian Unemployed Workers Union and we were really born out of, we started in about 2014, but there's been unemployed workers unions in this country since the Great Depression, since the 30s, but we were

really born out of the Abbott government coming in in 2014 and one of the things they did, or he did, because work for the dollar is really Tony's baby, he loves it. Is quadruple the size of the program and put heaps more people into it. So a bunch of us who sort of founded the union was sort of on the brunt of this sort of new wave of neoliberal coalition, politicians, you know, really ramping down compliance, you know, really upping penalties, you know, cutting programs.

So yeah, we're really born out of that and all the campaigning that we do now comes from that sort of horrible period that sadly we're still in. Yes, if there's one thing that Tony Abbott and his kind love more than anything else it's just really really raking people over the colds to make sure that they they count as a human who is you know the right kind of person the right kind of person who's worthy of being helped. Just just yeah all yeah, all the means testing and the qualifying factors and the general

dehumanization of people. It's pretty unfortunate stuff. I just had a, I just had a flashback like when you were saying Tony Abbott coming in five years ago, which was, I just had a sudden moment of, oh yeah, remember Tony Abbott's Green Army? Hmm. That was all, hey, we'll give all these people something to do

kind of deal, wasn't it? Well, he's a weird one because work for the doll, so really, it becomes a policy in the Howard, you know, it's at the Howard year, so in 1997, 1998. And that's when Tony's the employment minister. And you sort of, you know, did some research recently. And digging back into that sort of era, he puts this idea that, you know, poor people have to work to receive, you know, new start or income support, you know, almost

as like part of one of the top pillars of his faith, like he, you know, he thinks really in his mind that this is like a moral imperative and that's really where work for the doll comes from where he thinks forcing us into, you know, basically free labor for our welfare. So, and that's where this, I'm not sure if you guys have seen it, but it's in the year 2000 and there's this amazing video where Tony goes out to a work for the doll site, you know, because it is his baby and he spends a whole day, it's still on YouTube. It's one of the most remarkable pieces of footage where you sort of see him out in one of these sort of outdoor laboring sites just like trying to dig holes and just like fucking it up immensely. It's, it's

comical. He's like pushing a wheelbarrow, wheelbarrows over that are like falling down hills. You see it, you see him on like a lunch break just like hasseling this like poor, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, thi's, like, thi's, like, thi's like, see him on like a lunch break just like hassling this like poor like work for the adult participant. He just wants to like eat his sandwich in peace before he gets forced back for the for the rest of the day but he's got Tony there talking about like how good a program it is. So yeah you're right all that sort of green jobs all this sort of idea that you know welfare recipients have to the th a th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the thi. the thi. the thi. thi. thi. the the thi. the the thi. thi. the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. I I I I I I I I I I I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I I I I th. I th. I's th. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I'm thi. I'll the. I'm toe. I'm toe. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm to theole. I'm to thi. I'm thi. I'm th, you know, welfare recipients have to have to endure labor and meet, you know, a mutual obligation, this whole idea that, you know, really eroded this whole idea that, you know, as citizens were entitled to our entitlements, you know, Tony, Tony really had a big hand in getting rid of sort of, you know, this idea that, you know, social securities are universal right, where, you know, to the point where it is

now where, you know, you have to work for nothing for 50 hours a week just to get you know, lowly new start. Well, it makes you think of like the commonly accepted term for it as well used to be safety net, like a social safety net. The idea was that if you had fallen out of employment and you know we're struggling to find something else for a while, that this safety net would be there to help you with the necessities until you could get back to the position that you were at. And yeah, very obviously this whole type of political ideology just completely,

completely dismisses that as an idea that this is just something that should be there for the citizenry of a country to say this is a thing that we can fall back on and rely on in times of need. And instead it's like, no, no you should actually be doing as a specific job in exchange for this thing as opposed to this is the thing that's meant to be helping you while you get back to the kind of job that you would normally be working right and it's sort of you know that's part of you know a thi. that the the ideological shift. Because, you know, Australia, you know, once had, you know, a great social security system, and then of course,

you know, we get the, we get the neoliberal turn, which of course does a lot of, you know, material things to our economy and casualization starts and all sorts of things, but how insidious sort of our culture became from one that, as you were saying, sort of, is all about sort of, you know, this collective spirit and needing a safety net and everyone's entitled to it, you know, really becomes that, you know, people are individually responsible for their success and their failure. And that's really sort of, you know, in our economics, in our welfare policy, sort of all across the board, what sort of starts feeding in as like the mainstream discourse, and that anyone who relies on, the welfare is sort of, is sort of, is, you, you, you, you, is, is, you, is, is, that, is, that, that, is, that, that, th, th, is, th, is, th, is, is, thi, thi, is, is, thi, is, thi, thi, thi, thi, is, is, you, you, you, thi, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. is all, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi starts feeding in as like the mainstream discourse and that anyone who relies on, anyone who relies on welfare is sort of in that sense damaging the growth

or taking money away from the working class or all that kind of thing and those sorts of nasty rhetoric, which you see from from certain publications and the Australian media scape still running with. And it's interesting, you mentioned like, you know, that people are meeting them, they're having to meet their mutual obligations for, for their benefits and that sort of thing. And something that's sort of come out of, you know, the reporting that that you've sort of been doing and some of the pieces that we've been looking at, is, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, come out of the reporting that you've sort of been doing and some of the pieces that we've been looking at is, you know, this concept of demerit points and like this whole scoring system where people have to, people are graded for their obligations and if they miss certain things based on different factors, they can end up losing the payments,

you know, lots and lots of stuff like that. And it's just, I know, to me it's just this whole bizarre world that I just, you know, wasn't truly aware of, you know, how gamified this thing is, that they've tried to you know make it so means test and what does that look like what like what is what how is this system set up and and how do people get get like I guess punished into homelessness by it right and yeah I really relate to sort of what you're saying because you know like probably a lot of us you know in my late teens early 20s so that's

about 10 years ago now you know sort of when I first went on a new start th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that th that th th that that that that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. that that that that thi thi the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi thi thi thi thi thens, early 20s, so that's almost, that's about 10 years ago now, you know, sort of when I first went on a new start, and the system kind of sucked then, but I went off it and got work and traveled, and only really got, you know, back on to the system, you know, when I was sort of moving, so, you know, a few years ago and it was absolutely remarkable sort of how much this system as you say was gamified and how much it's changed to the point now where so last July there was a huge welfare reform sort of package passed where job agencies now have been granted unprecedented powers to be able to inflict punishments and financial penalties on New Start recipients without any oversight from Centilink.

So that's like, this is a completely new thing in, you know, in Australian society. We've never had a situation in our welfare system where privatized job agents have had the power to cut you from your payments and the tool they've been given since July by the government is this demerit point system, which essentially does function and look like the kind of demerit points you'll get for speeding or committing a traffic infringement, because apparently, you know, not filling out your 20 jobs a fortnight or not going to your job agent is as dangerous for society as running a red light. So and that's you know and that's something you know these

points each point you get you know you get you get you get you get you get kicked off payment or you you receive a penalty and it's something that that can't be appealed. You basically, this is sort of the first time this has ever happened where you're basically, you know, you're stuck with it. Up until you amass four or five of these things and then you can launch an official, official appeal. So, yeah, never in, you know, this sort of, you know, welfare system, social security system have completely privatized corporations being able to basically, you know, punish and humiliate citizens at will. And there was this horrible, and sort of it's, it's, it's coming to a zenith now. It was this horrible story published in The Guardian this morning, about, um, um, about, um, the official, um, the official, uh, the official, th........ th. the official, the, th. And, to, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, their, their, their, their, to, to, to, their, uh, uh, uh, their, their their their their their their their their their their their th, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, their, their, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, theirto a Zenith now there's this horrible story published in the Guardian this morning

about homeless Australians and how many thousands of them are being you know punished by this system which makes complete sense because who you know who is the least able to go to a job interview go to their job agent these are people who are struggling to put food on the table, put you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you, you, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, the, the, the, the, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you know, th, th, th, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, the, the, you know, you know, you know, the, you know, who is the least able to go to a job interview, go to their job agent. These are people who are struggling to put food on the table, put, you know, get fuel in the car. And obviously they're feeling the brunt of this system because there was a little caveat, you know, because people have always been given penalties under the system, but before July, Settling were able to overturn any decision if it would, if it would, I, you, th.., I, I, I, I, th, th, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you their, you their, you thi, you thi., you thi. thi. Who, you know, you know, you know, thea.ea. Who is thea. th. thea. theat, you're thi. thea, thi. the.lingk were able to overturn any decision if it if it would I think I'm quoting here if it would cause unreasonable harm to the participant so it's always like caveats in here just as a protective

mechanism so it wouldn't like fuck people over too badly but the coalition has removed even that like safety gap so we're're seeing what we're sort of seeing now. So in the last year, you know, you guys and listeners might have noticed, there's just even more extreme stories of people just being cut off benefits willy-nilly, because there's just no sort of safety mechanisms, and there's no one overseeing this industry that's doing it to people either. I mean, that's the craziest part to me that there is th that th th th th th th th th th th th th th their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their overseeing this industry that's that's doing it to people either. That I mean that's the craziest part to me that there is that it's it's a guilty until proven innocent sort of system right so they they just say well you know you and it's it's not just

like missing you know missing you the job interviews or what have you but you but you know, there's been a bunch of cases where people have been double booked by, you know, the employment agents and they go, hey, I can't actually go to both of these and they hear nothing back and then, you know, what do you know, they get dinged for not going to a job interview, which is physically impossible because they've been double booked. That's right and it's, yeah, like, I, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's right and it's yeah, you know, I got a, so we have a, one of the services the AEW provides is we have like an advocacy hotline where people can sort of call in to get advice, help, or just, you know, for us to sort of translate the social security law and system for them because that stuff can be complicated. But we got a few people calling in. It was Invasion Day or Australia Day, whatever we call it.

Recently it was a public holiday, you know, for some states, all states on that Monday and someone called in basically to say that, you know, they had been given an activity to do, but it was impossible to do because ever it was closed. but it's one tho th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th say that they'd been given an activity to do, but it was impossible to do because the road was closed. But it's one of those things where, whether it's like an individual job agent made an error, whether it's like this digital algorithm that sort of exists and like spits out activities and punishments to people, but it's sort of this combination that whatever goes wrong, it's the individual who's immediately sort of copying it and to blame and that's sort of couched under this sort of coalition and labor, let's let's not

let labor off the hook, sort of rhetoric that this is making the, this is making the system more efficient, this is enabling them to take money back out of the system to unburden the budget, which is really like the driving, the driving force, you know, behind everything. They want to make everyone in the system as at least, quite unquote, welfare dependent as possible. What way, what better way to do that than making the system as it is, just continually punishing, yeah. And that's what's, I think that's what's the most obscene to me about it is this constant driver of, you know, we need to, we need to reduce the amount of money we're spending on it,

and so for that reason we will come up with these various Automated mechanisms for doing it like the whole robo-debt fiasco which is still going on if I'm I'm not mistaken it is I got a I had a call you know had a call by a Centering compliance officer late last year to tell me that I had a I had a robo-debt and I got into a bit of an argument with this bloke over the phone because he was basically kind of like you were saying saying Ben just kind of you get this like phone call you get this guy sort of telling you you're guilty of something you don't even know what you're guilty of yet. So I was having this like terse argument with this guy, but apparently I've got a robo-debt,

you know, coming in the mail at some point, you know, which is just sort of a horrible thing, you know, to think about that's being imposed on people. I think when they first started doing them, they weren't even calling people, were they? No, you just, yeah, you just, you just get a letter. Automatically generating notices to say, you know, we've cross-references, we've cross-referenced these two records against each other. Computer thinks there is some form of discrepancy, and the onus is now on you to prove that this thiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, you're th, you're th. th. th. than, you that, you that, you that, you that, you that, you that, you that, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you're, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, you're thi, you're thi, you're that, thinks there is some form of discrepancy and the onus is now on you to prove that this thing is actually not the case within 30 days otherwise you're on the hook for it and also we have immediately sent this thing to a

debt collector and and yeah the algorithm they were using it first or I don't know if they end up changing or not to determine whether or not you had been paid in excess was just horribly flawed like you you would just have to do have one odd month or something and it would throw everything out of work. Well yeah I think I think the deal was was that it basically was unable to, the mechanism they were using was unable to account for any of those human factors that are involved in this because at the end of the day, these are all people. These are all people living their lives and in their individual situations, which is why you need to have a person look at this and talk to someone and say, can you tell me what was going on at this point? And like that doesn't even take into account

any of the concerns around, you know, if you just generate a notice and send it to somebody, like people can have all kinds of different situations whether they be, you know, maybe you have English as a second language, maybe you are illiterate, maybe you have an intellectual disability and you are just sent this notice that says you owe us $20,000, pay it within 30 days or it goes to something else. Like in a lot of cases what they were asking people to do was you know you have to produce records of what you were paid at different jobs at different times going back six years in order to prove that this, you know, that this discrepancy

does not actually exist. And I'm pretty sure that CenterLink's own guidelines at that point were saying you only need to keep your own records going back like X number of years, it was only sort of two years or something like that, and they were sending people notices and saying you need to produce documentation of something from four or five or six years ago. It was operating literally the same way as, I know there's a fucking term for it, and I can't remember what it is, but you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a the copyright................ the copyright, the copyright, the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright. the copyright, the copyright, their, their, their. their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. their. their. their. their.. their.. their.... their...... their. their.. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. It's. It's. It's. It it all go away. And then, you know, they're kind of hoping that people that aren't so computer literate or just don't really know how things work, and be like, oh shit, instead of realizing this is just an empty threat. You know, people will fork out this money immediately, not realizing that they're either wrong or that they're not they're not their thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thoomoomorrow, thi. People thi. thi. tho. tho. tho. tho-a. thoomomomomorrow, thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. thi. thi. the. the. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. People thea. People thea. People th's a chance that they are either wrong or that they're not legally justified and asking for that or whatever it was a fucking horrible thing to do

Well, it's even just I mean what like what you're talking about there is is basically the same The same principle that all all spam email scams operate on which is that if you blast out, you know 10 million of these things and 0.01% of people respond and say I'll give you the money, then you're doing really well. But I think what was so horrible about what they were doing with that was, I think that they were fully aware of the fact that all they were doing was cross-referencing two tables of data with all of this ambiguous, all this ambiguous information in between and saying there is a possibility that there is a discrepancy here and you have been overpaid or not paid something back you were supposed to, but without ever finding out whether that was the case immediately issuing debt notices to all

of those people and saying, the onus is on you to provide us, the agency that was the case, immediately issuing debt notices to all of those people and saying, the onus is on you to provide us the agency that is supposed to be administering this program and this information with evidence that this is not the case. Yeah, that's right. And if you cannot do so within time, then you will be penalized for this thing that we have not necessarily even proved is true. Yeah, basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically basically they th basically th basically th basically th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thi, the, thee an theoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. their the. their th thing that we have not necessarily even proved is true. Yeah, basically they had two sets of data, right? They had what job seekers are reporting in their income, as their income, by Centrelink, they had that crossed over very crudely with like the ATO receipts, biannually maybe, and if those two sets of data didn't sync up you know people have been issued a robo-debt which is incredibly ludicrous when you consider as

Andrew was touching on all these sort of mitigating you know circumstances especially you know probably first and foremost you know the fact that how many people are in casual work, you know, at the moment, you know, working different hours each fortnight, which was something the algorithm just couldn't tolerate at all. So people were being robodetted because, you know, there was discrepancies in income, but only because there was discrepancies in the amount of hours that they worked, or if people got hospitalized, you know, in the middle, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in the middle, in, in the middle, in the middle, in their, in their, in their, in their, in their, in, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, there was discrepancies in income, but only because there was discrepancies in the amount of hours that they work, or if people got hospitalized, you know, in the middle, in the middle of the year and had to take time off work and then came back to work, that could cause a discrepancy.

So it was all these things, all these factors, just not taken into account at all, and people were just immediately sent you know these you know these debts they had to you know they had to fight like hell but even you know even before all this you know the government also knew just how little a problem that purposeful welfare fraud is. I'm not sure if you guys have seen those figures, but it's like less than 0.01% of Australians purposely commit welfare fraud. So here they are building this enormous drag net, you know, based on the perceived guilt on such a tiny fraction of the population. So it's right. Because they did like a big task force, didn't they? They had like a big task force that was about cracking down on welfare fraud.

And when they got back with this thing of saying, you know, we combed through tens of thousands of cases and we found like eight people, you know. And that, like that sort of brings me to, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that that that that that that that that that that that that to what to what to what to what to what to what to what to what to what to what to what I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to their, their, their, their, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, like, like, their to the like that sort of brings me to, like like linking that to what I was saying earlier about what discussed me personally about this whole thing is this idea that it's so important to claw some of this money back that you're willing to you know dehumanize and destabilize the lives of so many people and to put all of this pressure and all of this you know onus to do the work on people who are at a point in their life where they are in need. They need assistance from the

society that they live in. And instead you're saying to them, well you've got to, you know, you've got to jump through all these hoops, you got to do all this stuff and if, and if, and if their, and if their, and if their, and if their, and if their, and if their, and if their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, their, and, and, and, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the, the, their, the, their, th, th.a, th. th. th. th. their, their, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, you know, you got to jump through all these hoops, you got to do all the stuff, and if you fall at any step of the way, we're going to immediately use that as our justification of pulling the rug out for money. And I, I was having a conversation with somebody recently about some of this sort of stuff. And, you know, they, they kind of, they said, they said, oh, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, they, their, their, their, their, their, the said, oh well you know, I'm I disagree with the idea that everybody is necessarily like owed a living, you know, that some people who don't want to work or whatever, and I said look, I think that yeah there probably are some people out there who genuinely just don't want to work, don't want to do anything for whatever reason. I think that they are a small minority and I think the part of the cost of living in

like a just and fair society that treats people reasonably is to say we'll carry the burden of just some people who are like, I'd rather just do nothing. Like even if you want to get down like right to the stereotype of... of just some people who are like, I'd rather just do nothing. Like even if you want to get down like right to the stereotype of the person who wants to do nothing but smoke cones and play Xbox all day and be a trash bag or whatever. I am willing to say, I would rather, collectively as a society, we just said, yes, there's going to be a sliver of people who do that. And in order to do that, it means that we can support all of the people who really need assistance in their time of need. As opposed to saying, we're so desperate to make sure that nobody gets away with anything,

that we're willing to punish disabled people and single mothers and the mentally ill and like people who are suffering from downturns in the economy that we caused with our fucking terrible policies and casualization of the workforce. It makes me think a lot of like a guy I worked with like a decade ago, right? This guy was my boss and he was a very strange unit And I remember having a conversation with him just like broadly about the concept of justice, you know, but the bell curve of justice and he was like Look, would you rather live in a society? Where's like? Nobody nobody who's committed a murder ever gets away? that, th a bunch of innocent people in prison for life for a murder they didn't commit? Or would you rather live in a society where there are some people walking around free who got away with murder,

but there's no innocent people in jail? And I was like, the second one, you madman. I was like, who gets shown that scenario and goes, look, a bunch of innocent people being imprisoned for life, I can handle that as long as no one gets away with anything? I just, I couldn't believe. He said he was absolutely in favor of the first one which blew my brain out of my skull, my young brain. I think you'd be surprised with how many people would agree with that guy because you know as

as you're alluding to the that is like the twisted logic that runs through that system but you know going back to sort of like, you know, bludgers, you know, as welfare recipients, let's just like, you know, be real that, you know, there's like bludgers and dickheads through like all strata of society, you know, that'd be at any workplace, you know, there is that bludger, um, or dickhead who you probably think you know probably shouldn't be there and you'd rather not but you're not gonna wish him you know you're not gonna wish him hopefully you know to be destitute to lose his job bludgers in Parliament bludgers as CEOs you know all throughout but I just try to take people back to the government's own data that, you know, if 99.99,

whatever percent of people are entering, you know, especially New Start, you know, that many, vast, vast majority of people enter New Start in good faith, desperately wanting to work, unable to work. The data also shows that the main reason people can't get work is there aren't enough jobs available in our economy rather than... so that's sort of that's that's the main this is the main rhetoric I try to use because as you guys might imagine I come across a lot of people you know I get a lot of threats through that uh that Twitter like other other other folder across a lot of people, you know, I get a lot of threats through that Twitter, like other other request folder, you know, people wanting to do me harm,

but sticking up for bludges and the rest of it, but really my like main rhetorical trick, I guess, what's not even a trick because it's just the truth is to try and sort of inform them the the labor market is like like like like like like like like like like like like like like the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. their thi. throic. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. So. So, their. So, their.. So, their.. So, their.. So, their. So, thi. So. So, them of what the labor market is like at the moment that there is just like you know a surplus of people locked out of work through no fault of their own and to put the question back on those people you know what do you want them what you want them to do really and I feel the responses you get from people after that point can be interesting. Well, that makes me think of, yeah, coming back to that whole concept again of the government saying,

ah, well if you want to collect New Start, you have to apply for, what is it, 20 jobs a month? Yeah. You have to apply for for 20 jobs a month and you have to approve it and you have to contact these job agencies that we put you in toucest with and follow up on all the things they line you up with. And there are a bunch of obvious problems with this, including, as you said, that there are often, often like the number of people applying for jobs massively, the number of jobs thops to to to to to to to to to to to to to th... And to to to to to to to to to th. And to to th. And to to th. And to to to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove th. And the. And to prove to prove to prove it. And to prove it. And to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove to prove th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And to th. And th. And to to to to to to to to toe, toe, toe, to, to, to to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the. that there are often, often like the number of people applying for jobs massively outstrips the number of jobs available. Yeah, can I say that if you have to apply for 20 jobs a month to get a job, perhaps the problem is not with the applicant? Perhaps the problem is with the job market. I'm just putting that out there. Just a little little

little thought bubble we can float up that it shouldn't take 20 job applications in a decent job market to come up with a wealthful employment. But also it creates other issues as well like my own own experience with stuff like Newside is very limited in that I've only been very lucky in that I've only had the one period in my career where I was out of work for like several months in between like moving between cities, kind of what you were referring to before Jerry and and I very wisely chose to move off the back of a company that I was working for going under because it turned out that they were stealing everybody's money which is what you want from a small business

and I decided to move into state and this was like right as the GFC was hitting its peak point. And it took me longer to find work than I expected and I sort of got to a point where I went, oh I'm gonna have to try and you know register for New Start, that sort of thing. So started going through that process and was put in toucest with the job agencies that they put you in toucest with. So, you know, granted this was years ago, but the thing that I remember about this was that you know, I had gone to a form of higher education and I had worked consistently up until that point.

And so I had a bunch of very specific qualifications. And you go to these job agencies and they say, okay, these are the kinds of jobs that we have for you. And they're all like, you know, a lot of them are like service industry kind of stuff or low level sorts of things. And I remember them saying to me, there is no point in you applying for any of these jobs because you're overqualified for all of them and they know that you are out of work currently and you will be looking for work in the industry that you work in and as soon as you receive a job in that you will leave this place

So as far as they are concerned there is no point in employing you To work for any of these sorts of jobs And so it just turns into this like colossal snake eating its own tail thing of the government saying To prove to us that you are looking for a job you must dedicate this much of your time to applying for th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. thi. thi. thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, th are looking for a job, you must dedicate this much of your time to applying for these jobs, through this job agency, that the job agency is telling you that none of these people will ever give to you, while you outside of that go about the normal efforts that you would be going through to get a job in the field you are actually qualified to work in. Yeah, it's like probably a lot of people's actual experiences of that.

Yeah, what you're sort of in in social security speak, you would, you, there's different streams for different job seekers, right? So you would have been a stream A job seeker in that instance whereby basically stream A means you're, you know, you've got decent background, you're presentable, you've got qualifications, you know, you're the most sort of, I guess, privileged job seeker in the system. And a stream A, and that's when, you know, job agents use the term parking where, sort of, as you say, the jobs that have available, they know you can't really get your skills and qualifications are sort of above that level.

They can't really do anything to help you directly, but they still need to force you to, you know, go through this like Mickey Mouse routine of like filling out your, you know, your jobs per fortnight going to your appointments, which I imagine were, I'm not sure how many you went to, but, or what you even talked about, but manage just a complete waste of both of your time. And then, you know, eventually you just find your own job and then, you know, the job agency probably tries to take credit for that and gets a bonus. So that's you you you you you you you th th th th th th th th th that's th th th th th th th th th th th th th. That's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to, thi. to, to, thi. to, too. thi. too. too. to, too. too. to, to, toee. toe. toea. toe. toe. toe. too. toe. thi. thi. thi. your own job and then, you know, the job agency probably tries to take credit for that and gets a bonus. So that's when you're a stream A. And then it sort of goes down to stream B, which is sort of, which you're kind of in the sweet spot for help where, you know, your decent background, presentable, you can speak, can speak English well, but you just need any job or you just need, you know, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you a, you're a to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to a to a to a to a strea, to a strea, to strea, to strea, a strea, to stream, to stream, to stream, to stream, to stream, a strea, a stream stream, a stream strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, a strea, to stream, treea, treea, tree, tree, treea, strea, strea, strea, strea, stream, strea, stream, treea, treea, a ssa, a sa, can speak English well, but you just need any job or you just need any

qualification and those people tend to do the best in the system. And then when it really starts sucking is when you're a stream C and these stream Cs are your most disadvantaged people in the system, you're longterm unemployed, and these people can be parked basically as well, you know, because, you know, no employer wants to hire them, you know, they might have addiction issues, severe health issues, you know, these are also the people who find it hardest to meet their mutual obligations. So, you know, these are essentially the people we're seeing now who are getting, you know, these are also the people who find it hardest to meet their mutual obligations. So, you know, these are essentially the people we're seeing now who are getting, you know, demerit points basically for being homeless.

So that's, you know, that's kind of the roundup of the system. So, you know, really, you know, really unhelpful, you know, for a vast majority of people who who get put into the service. Now, very disappointingly, something that you alluded to earlier, I think that we collectively, you know, the Australian collective psyche is that the liberal party, the liberal national coalition is the party that is extremely keen on this sort of stuff, extremely keen on privatization of all this kind of service, extremely keen on, you know, as you're saying, essentially the moralization of

welfare, this idea that people need to need to prove that they are morally worthy of being helped by the state. And that extends to instituting work for the Dole programs. There is an election imminent this year. I think we're pretty much all on the same page that the liberals are going to get thoroughly wrecked and that the Labour Party will assume government once again. We were probably all naively holding out hope that the Labour Party will assume government once again, we would, we're probably all naively holding out hope

that maybe the Labor Party, being nominally the party of workers, would want to do away with something like work for the doll. But unfortunately, it seems like they have an approach to it, which is much more like their extremely cowardly position on border issues, which is rather than doing away with this horrific policy that is purely designed and implemented to torture people, they have just said, oh, we're going to keep doing it just more humanely? That kind of seems like where they're out. Have they basically just said, oh, we're going to,

we're going to reform work for the doll? Yeah, you know, they're good at using these vague verbs, like they're going to review new start and they're going to redesign work for the Dull was their, scare quote, commitment to it, which was incredibly disappointing for us. So, and me especially, because Work for the Dull is really one of the issues I focus on, you know, primarily in the work that I do, trying to campaign for its abolition, because I've been through the program and I know how horrible it is. This is a program that's injured, um, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi that's that's thi thi, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's thi, um, um, um, um, that I do try to campaign for its abolition because I've been through the program and I know how horrible it is. This is a program that's injured permanently, friends of mine. And we were lobbying and putting some, you know,

what we thought was good productive pressure on labor throughout 2018. You know, that's when we sort of got at Hussick who was the relevant minister at the start of the year, sort of talking about maybe getting rid of it just on the grounds that it was just unsafe for unemployed workers to be at this site. And then sort of Terry Butler took over the portfolio and you might remember that story that sort of came out last November where she claimed that work for the doll under labor was being put on the chopping block and that was you know in the weeks leading up to that we were doing a lot of a lot of lobbying and trying to raise the awareness so you know we were cautious but we felt like this was heading in the right direction at least that they were taking it seriously and there was a good chance that they would come to their senses and get rid of the program.

But lo and behold, started this year, you know, they announced that they're going to keep, they're going to keep the program, they're going to keep a program that pays people $10 a week to do if you're under 50 hours a thiiiiiiiii that that that th, thi th. th. th.00, thi thi th.00, thi thi thi thi th.00, thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, th. the, th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, the the the the the the thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean the the the the you're under 50, up to 50 hours of fortnight of free labor, but they're going to redesign it and we have no idea what that word redesign means and I've been having sadly a lot of arguments online with hardcore labor rights who keep telling me, you know, Jeremy, they sort of put their labor electoral pragmatist hat on and they said, you know, Jeremy, don't be so harsh on labor, don't put, you know, they're going to, they just need to say they're going to redesign it now because the coalition will really savage them if they come out for its abolition. So just be careful. But as you guys might remember, the lesson, and the lesson, and I I I I I I I I the the thi. And I thi. And I thi. the thi. the thi. the thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I've the the the their they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their they come out for its abolition. So just be careful. But as you guys might remember, the lesson I've already learned this lesson back in 2007, 2008, where everyone, when labor,

so when labor comes in and kicks out Howard, Yahoo, they were really expected and they flagged that they would and they'd abolish work for the doll. What did they do? It was a big surprise, they decided to reform it. They took some of the teeth out of it. So, you know, they did make it a lot less terrible than it was before and a lot less awful than Abbott has made it now. But they kept the program. They kept putting people, unemployed workers on this site, you know, working for nothing. So, you know, that sort of was always in the back of my mind. And it's always in the back of my mind when I sort of, you know, think about, think about labor and their culpability. I think you know we're right to focus on

how fucking atrocious the coalition is when it comes to welfare policy but we also can't forget that really the concept of mutual obligation it does start with you know Keating it does start with you know labor, labor in the 90s. The whole concept of mutual obligation, you know, became an incredibly bipartisan, bipartisan idea when Abbott and Howard unroll worked for the Dull in the late 90s to begin with, that has bipartisan support, labor supporting that. Even the unions, even the ECTU, back in those days, you know, we're vaguely supportive of work for the doll.

So even labor and even our unions, you know, quite significantly fed in and helped, you know, really helped develop the whole Dolbludge narrative as well in the 90s. So that's something we can tend to, we can tend to forget. But I think it's really crucial in our current moment, especially as labor, as dragging their heels and refuses to raise immediately the rate of new start, even though it knows people are starving, even though it knows that 70 plus, 70 plus percent of us want the raise,

refusing to drag their heels on work for the dull. So, you know, I think more and more more more and more people are sort of you know waking up to the idea now that you know across the board I think we were under the illusion I'm not sure about you guys but I was an embarrassing Rudd fan in 207 and I really I was also a young guy but you know I got the Kevin A7 shirt and I thought you know this was this was gonna change politics for the better I don't think people have that that that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the people people have the people have the people have the the thi thi thi the the the the the the thi the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeooo. theeeeeeeeeo. tho. theee of the of the got the Kevin O7 shirt and I thought, you know, this was going to change politics for the better. I don't think people have that same kind of illusion, under Shorten. I don't think that guy's going to do much.

So I think, but there is, you know, a certain, you know, sensible, centrist group who are, you know, who are trying to, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi.a, thi.a, thi.a, thi.a, thi.a.a, thi.a, thi.a, thi.a, thrying to you know get us to take it a bit easy on the criticism and the campaigning like we we got into a lot of trouble with with those types when we were sort of protesting and and doing some stuff outside labor conference you know a lot of sort of angry labor boomers I guess sort of telling us that you know all we were doing we're helping the coalition I think even Bill Shorten said that that you you you you you you you you you th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the thi. the the the the the the the the the. the the try. the. try. thi. try. try., sort of telling us that you know all we were doing we're helping the coalition. I think even Bill Shorten said that on stage at some protests but you know it's it's actually like an moral imperative that we actually you know kick labor's ass and try to try to sway them as much as possible because it's you know it's it's the only way to be able to get them you know to you know to commit and change on this

you know I feel like I feel like we've already learned that lesson you know from from 2007 2008 but apparently some of us haven't well yeah thrown to the thousand. Well yeah I couldn't agree more especially you know as I was saying you can you can really draw that parallel to all of the all of the offshore processing and border security stuff as well that's that is another issue where people are just constantly saying oh well you know if labor says they're going to soften their stance on that then the liberals will really go after them so they just need to keep it up until they get into office and the office and go the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their. their their their their their their their their their their. their their. their th. th. th. tho tho. tho tho they tho tho to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. the. the going to soften their stance on that, then the liberals will really go after them. So they just need to keep it up until they get into office and then they get into office and go,

we're sure going to keep doing that thing that we promised we were going to do before we go to the office. And I think that this is much the same. There is we're going to, you know, keep all these terrible conditions that they're going to get into office and magically turn around and flip it. So, I thought perhaps we could round out with a little reading from a piece that we saw a week or two ago, which, apart from being very funny for how dumb it is, is also I think very representative of what I guess what Australian media thinks is a reasonable thing to publish when it comes to unemployed people. This is from a particularly shitty master head called a Rondeview which I think runs in a lot of different murder. Rondes. Renders view. Renders View. Rende's view. By a lady called Kylie Lang, who writes,

the headline is, The Bludger's Taking us All for a Ride. Now just for international audiences, a bludger I guess is a bum, somebody lazy, itinerant, I guess. It's like a slacker but with none of the like fun cool connotations, you hate them because they're a social parasite and they are sneaking to your house and taking all your coins. From you a hard-working person who makes money from dividends? That sounds about right. Yeah. When you make $200,000 a year finding a new way to sell illegal diet pills, they're taking one millionth of a percent of every dollar and they're spending it on McDonald's.

Fucking bludges. Yeah, they call them welfare queens in the in the US like it's sort of a it's sort of a bogey man that you know is quite universal but the real Ozzy real Ozzy visage of it especially in the 90s was your sort of long-haired you know, you know, it. It, it. it. it. it. it. It, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're a, you, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a the, you're a the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their th, you're a th. A, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, you're a th, universal, but the real Ozzy, real Ozzy visage of it, especially in the 90s was your sort of long-haired, you know, long-haired dude, shirt off, you know, mullet, rat-tail. Probably looking like you- 15-year-old Commodore. Yeah, like, you know, lazing, lazing on the beach, like smoking, you know, smoking, smoking, you know, a quintessential, original Bludge, and and it their the beach, like smoking, you know, smoking bongs, that was sort of like a quintessential original Bludger image and it really hasn't, really hasn't changed as I'm sure we're about

to hear from this lovely young, lovely young lady. If you want a very clear idea, I would recommend there's this fantastic documentary, an Australian documentary from 2000 called The Wog Boy. It'll get you a great idea of what I'm talking about. So let's see what Kylie has to say about an interaction she had which definitely 100% occurred in real life. This folks is a real thing that happened. This is based on a true story. Kiley writes, Bludges make my blood boil. And the sooner Australia tightens its joke of a welfare system, the better. The Kylie immediately sounds like she knows what

she's talking about. Mm-hmm. All the stats are in hand. All the stats are in hand. If there's anything very across Australia's extremely loose welfare system, I'm not talking about battlers who are genuinely trying to get ahead and failing or who want to work but can't, society must support its most vulnerable members. All right now that we got that out of the way. Which we're not doing, yep. Keep it on. It's loafers who openly wrought the system bragging about how good they've got it. And what a bunch of suckers the rest of us are who anger me, especially when our taxes are funding their idle lifestyles.

Take the grubs in coals at Tombal in Brisbane's North. Brisbane, typical. Brisbane's North, mid-morning one day this week. Waiting in the 12 items or less lane. She doesn't say how many items they had. No, obviously angling for that, but didn't really want to like... There's a suggestion that they had 25 items. Waiting into 12 items or less lane,

1-20-something who'd never encountered a hairbrush began rumbling to her shoeless friend about how slow it was to check out. So like we've immediately gone to appearances here. Never encounter the hair much. Can I just say three words at this juncture? Mm-hmm. Barefoot is legal. It is absolutely legal. And additionally, nobody under the age of 700 uses the 12 items or less lane anymore. So this, this story is obviously false on its face because everybody uses the 12 items or less lane anymore. So this this story is obviously false on its face because everybody uses the self-checkout lane now. So there is absolutely no chance that a 20-something

year old is in a 12-items or less lane. Hmm. Granted, there were a number of customers ahead of the pair, but so what? Where were they going in such a hurry? Certainly not back to work. Where are you? Well, yeah, I feel like she's, she's sort of, she's a disembodied, she has like astrally projected herself here from the office, you know? She's working very, very hard at the office.

Just communing with doll bludges and like, in the matrix. Well, there's so many bits in here where I'm just like... Yeah, like, there's no point here in which she seems to stop for even the slightest of seconds and say, maybe I don't fucking know these people. Like, maybe these, maybe these people are all like the, the, um, the like, um, the like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in the, in the, in the, in the, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, the, like, like, the, the, like, the, the, the, in, the, the, in, in, the, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, the know these people. Like, maybe these people are all like the rich venture capitalist dipshits who like, you know, spend like 51 weeks of the year, working 120 hours a week with somebody else's money, and then for like one week of the year, they go, all right, it's off into the mountains to pretend that we're dirty hippies. Maybe they are. You don't fucking know these people. You don't know what they're doing in their life or whatever.

They could be on holiday. Who gives a shit? Absolutely none of your business. The lady's not wearing shoes. Who gives a fuck? the insufferable inconvenience of having to wait her turn, she upped the volume on her whining, rattling the checkout operator who was doing her best to be quick. They say misery loves company, and right about then another shopper, who seemed to know the pair, sidled up and joined in the rant. Never thought it be so busy this time of the morning, hurry the fuck up, she shouted. I've got places to be. Yeah, like on your couch. Gafford another. Hey, said the other, it's better than fucking working for a living. This is the most this did not happen story that I think I've ever seen.

And that checkout girl's name? That's right. It's Albert Heinz, stop. How many buses do you reckon it took before she changed that line of dialogue from it beats working for a living from, I am a dull bludger. I do not I do not work That's why I'm here in the supermarket. It really reminds me of those like those like 50s sort of like 60s like black and white you know basically like social propaganda films and just like the dialogue between like the yeah like the dialogue between like the naughty teams of whoever's doing the bad thing is just so like fucking like still the dialogue between like the yeah like the dialogue between like the naughty teams of whoever's doing a bad thing is just so like fucking like stilted

and and and terrible it's like she's just like created one of those you know like fevered brain I love denying Christ and abusing the welfare state yes well the writing the writing itself is so stilter. Q rocass laughter bombs, and figurative backslap. Figurative. These women were so hilarious, they, these women were so hilarious, they should join the comedy circuit. That thing we all say all the time.

Rauke's laughter and sea bombs. It's just like when someone says something funny you just start yelling cunt as loud as you can. Yes. So so she goes on a bit about like what's to be done. What's to be done about these people? I immediately called the police and the manager blah blah blah. So what is being done about deadbeats who refuse to work and mock the very system that carries them? The federal government last year announced several plans to close loopholes and increase

accountability, but many are still being blocked by labor and, the Greens. In August it redrafted legislation which had been going nowhere in the Senate to try and stop job seekers, in scare quotes for some reason. Deliberately applying for positions for which they the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their the in the Senate to try and stop job seekers in scare quotes for some reason deliberately applying for positions for which they were monumentally underqualified and had no hope of securing. So she's already supporting this scheme that requires you to apply for 20 jobs a month regardless of what they are or your suitability for them but she also wants to make sure that people are prevented from qualifying for jobs that they are not likely to be given.

It's amazing that people have this idea in their minds that there's just infinite jobs that like for every one person there is an available job in every field it is bizarre. But if you look at like like you know our current Prime Minister Scott Morrison just this week last week every every damn week he's talking you know he he beats his chest about the coalition's supposed amazing incredible job creation statistics, which I think is like a really important part and like feeds you know this kind of like dip shit narrative is when you sort of see him saying that there's never been more Australians

employed than there are now that they've created a million jobs which by the way is true. There's never been more Australians than there are now, that they've created a million jobs. Which by the way is true. There's never been, yes, job creation is going like perfectly in line with general population growth. That is true. He does make sure never to quite mention how many hours a week these jobs are because most of them are part-time. We're seeing a big full-time job decline. But, like my, you know, my point is, it there, there, there, there, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's there, it's there, it's there, it's there, it's there, it's there, it's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's has. It's has. It's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's is, it's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's thi. thi. thi. thi. theee to be the to be the the the thean thi thean. thean. thean. the thi. We're seeing a big full-time job decline.

But like my, you know, my point is, you know, it seems ludicrous, you know, for us maybe on one side of politics or, you know, certain class in society, but, you know, to give, you know, to try and get inside this woman's brain. If that's what you're seeing, it makes it look incredibly easy. It makes it look like jobs are just like, you know, fallen from the sky, you know, that you basically have to shun work to remain unemployed. So it's really like, you know, we all sort of like, you know, we all sort of like dunk on politicians who sort of say all this stuff, but, but, it, it, it, it, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, it's, it's, it makes, it's, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes it makes it makes it makes it makes it makes it makes it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it makes, it's thi, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's, it's, it's th, it's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. It makes it thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii's thi, thi, th you know, it seems, you know, we all sort of like, you know, dunk on politicians who sort of say all this stuff, but you know, that rhetoric does, you know,

is effective, the certain brain, like, like this one, making it seem that, you know, there's so many jobs, they're so easy to get. You know, if these guys stopped gafforing, supermarkets, you know, that'd be fine. Well, like I said, it just, it just stuns me this idea that, like you said, I mean, even the idea that there is anybody out there who is being offered multiple jobs and saying, that one doesn't suit me and that one doesn't pay enough. Yeah, jobs not. that, that, that. that that. the. the, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th'd th'd the, the the, the, th'd be th'd be, th'd be, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeat be theeeeeeeee' be theeat be theee-a' be the-tha' be th one doesn't suit me and that one doesn't pay enough. I refuse to take it. Yeah as though that is a thing that exists like you know that Tony Abbott was always out there saying oh well we got to start you know we're got to get people into work and stop them from trying to pick and choose and saying and which of course was the genesis of his whole kind of, oh if you're unemployed in Tasmania, you should move to like a food bowl in Western Australia and

work there. Those people like, I can't pay my fucking rent, how am I supposed to move to the other side of the country? Yeah, like I'm left with a house that's worth, you know, 100 grand less than when I bought it because the mining boom has not been managed at all and entire fucking communities have just been decimated because jobs come and jobs go according to like the private market and like no long-term planning whatsoever. But I'm expected to pick up and move, sell my house for less than I bought it for and move across the country for a job that I, that may not even be permanent or full-time or any of those things, right? Like, it's ludicrous.

You might be shocked to find that this lady is also in favor of drug testing, New Star recipients. She's dismayed to find that this is unlikely to be passed. She says, on the upside gains have the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to find that this is unlikely to be passed. She says, on the upside, gains have been made. In 2018, the government clawed back $61 million from more than 26,000 Centilink fraudsters. She goes on, though, to say, at a later point in this, consider also the high number of non-working households in this country compared to the rest of the developed world. The one in four Australians receives benefits of some kind. I notice she has helpfully hasn't facted in like, you know, retirees and

people getting franking benefits and all that kind of shit. And the generational unemployment is a growing problem with one in 10 dependent children living in a family when no one is employed, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Why work when mom or dad didn't? It's like, how do you simultaneously raise the concept of intergenerational poverty? And also very clearly state that you have absolutely

like no understanding of the concept whatsoever. I think one of the things that's really pissing me off here is that she's so angry at the concept of people you know not doing hard work and she is getting paid to write about standing in line at checkout It's not a real job. It's not real work. It's not a thing. It's not productive in any way. It doesn't provide value to society in any fashion. This isn't work. It's not hard. Like, it's just such a perverse thing that these people see themselves as like the honest, hard-working, hard-done by battling people of the country when it's like, what do you even do?

You sit at a type ride, you're like, oh, someone with hair was loud around me at the shops earlier. I'm going to spend 12 hours on this. Extremely mad about it now. Fucking, just, ugh. It's wild that she, you know, manages to, you know, she puts a sort of finger on a point here about like intergenerational, structural unemployment.

And like, you know, and that's like, oh, wow, great. She's, you know, actually, and she read some ABS data, fantastic, finally, like three quarters away through the piece. But then I'm assuming is basically boiling down multi-generational, structural poverty and disadvantage as an individual choice, stoners are making in a supermoney, isn't where we're going? Well, even the suggestion that like, yeah, if no one in your family worked, then you will just look at that and say, oh, well, why should I have a job as opposed to say, you know, maybe the reasons that no one in this family was working was like mental illness or literacy or disability or like any of the

range of issues that cause that sort of stuff in families Which then has all the run-on effects of you know? No one in your household was able to help you obtain an education? Which could then help you to get a job and maybe you were in a position where you are then immediately like supporting everybody in your family and don't actually have the capacity or the time to go out and get the abilities that you would need to go out and seek a job. Let's not ask any of those sorts of questions. The most important question is why work when mom or dad didn't. And again, she's always like so close to getting the stuff. It's important for governments to invest in education, training and other initiatives to get people in

jobs, but it is not a panacea for a culture of bludging that has become entrenched, which which is really weird to simultaneously hold that kind of view and also support a government which is constantly saying things like more Australians have been currently employed than ever before. So which one is it? Do we have a massive entrenched culture of bludging from all these people who don't want to work or are more people currently employed than have ever been at any point in the country's history? Taxpayers don't deserve to be taken for mugs like all Australians. They deserve a fair go. Kylie Lang is a courier male associate editor.

You can find her on Twitter at Kylie underscore Lang if you would like to give us some feedback about this article. I would encourage it. So that brings us to the end of our time folks. We would like to thank Jeremy for joining us. Thank you. Thank you, thank you gentlemen. Been a pleasure. You're very welcome. You can find some of Jeremy's writing on this topic Kriki.ki.com. that are you had a very good roundup of these issues at the end of last year and of course you can look into the Australian Unemployed Workers Union, I believe are on Twitter, what's the what's the old Twitter handle for those guys? It's at Oz

underscore unemployment and yeah keep you know give us a give us a follow look at our website unemployed workers union.com one thing I probably should have mentioned earlier especially about that labor you know especially that conversation we're having about a labor party is you know given that it's so likely that they're going to be in power you know we're really going to be ramping up. Some of our campaigning, especially around sort of election time, basically trying to show that in marginal seats they're going to lose, they're going to lose votes if they, you know, by dragging their heels, especially on raising New Start and and not ending work for the DOL and those sorts of things. So encourage people to get involved in those campaigns.

Yes, and we also would absolutely encourage people to check that out and see what you can do to contribute to that effort, because we also really agree that I think kind of the worst thing that we can collectively be doing at the moment is just taking for granted that labor are going to win the next election and all just kind of sitting back and going, well at least it's not the liberals, as opposed to actually trying to pull them further to the left on some of these issues, which is really where they should be. As always, thank you for listening.

If you would like an extra episode of the show every week, you can head over to Patreon.com forward slash Punta Vista, become a premium subscriber. Primo for five bucks a month, five American dollars. I think we've got some good content coming up about Ben's thoughts on circumcision rights. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we're recording that coming in so check that out. Yeah. So until next week. Thank you very much. thank you very to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th th th th th. th th th th th. th th. th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi, thiom, thiom, become thiom, become thiom thiom thiom thiom thiom thiom thiom thiom thiom thi, become thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to be to be thi to be to th coming in so check that out. Yeah. So until next week, thank you very much and we'll see you then. Thanks everybody. Bye-bye. you