Boonta Vista - EPISODE 87: Margot Robbed Me (Featuring Debbie Zhou)

Episode Date: February 26, 2019

Andrew, Lucy and Ben are joined by film critic Debbie Zhou for a conversation about Australian media's failure to embrace certain actors, representation in cinema and which animal had the best drum solo in Aquaman. Find Debbie on Twitter at https://twitter.com/debbie_zhou Read ROUGH CUT at https://roughcutfilm.com Read Debbie's piece in Guardian Australia here: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/feb/07/these-actors-are-doing-huge-things-in-hollywood-so-why-isnt-australia-celebrating-them *** Support our show and get exclusive bonus episodes by subscribing on Patreon: www.patreon.com/BoontaVista *** Merchandise available at: boontavista.com/merchandise *** Twitter: twitter.com/boontavista iTunes: tinyurl.com/y8d5aenm Stitcher: www.stitcher.com/s?fid=144888&refid=stpr Pocket Casts: pca.st/SPZB RSS: tinyurl.com/kq84ddb

Welcome to Bonte Vista episode 87. Creeping up on that 100 episodes. That's when it gets syndicated and all the money really starts pouring in from the networks. That's how I understand it anyway. Maybe it won't work out like that. Ben, do you have any information for me about a syndication of a series such as this? I don't really understand how syndication would work with a podcast. Is that just other podcasts airing episodes of this podcast? I think we just continue to

let people listen to it. I think it's kind of already syndicated in the traditional sense in that it's everywhere. Yeah I guess so. Super syndicated. It's mandatory to listen to it. It's government mandated, yes. I like this. Socialist utopia, yes, ideally we'll be government mandated to listen to the show. Lucy is here as well. Hi, Lucy. Hi, hello. I don't even know any more what country you're in. I'm back in America. I'm back in Hulia. Yes, I have returned. It's very late. I can't tell from week to week anymore.

It's too, it's too frequent. Change very swiftly. I thought you were back for a while. I was. And now I'm back here. Let's not talk to any authorities about it. Let's not get into whose visa says what? You know? And we have a guest joining us today. We have with us all away from places on the internet like Rough Cut and the Guardian and the big issue at Time Out Sydney, everything. We have managing editor of new film criticism website Rough Cut. It is Debbie Zow. Hi. Hello, thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Thanks for joining us. Is this your first ever podcast? I think so. I think I've only been on radio but never on podcast. So I feel like

here we go. That's radio radio is much better. Wow, I'm sorry. It was community radius, okay. Okay. I think what you knowtoday was today. It was okay. That's a podcast level. There we go. Oh, dear. The damning indictment of all of these platforms. So we asked Debby to come on and have a chat to us about a piece that she wrote in Guardian Australia recently, titled,, These actors are doing huge things in Hollywood, so why isn't Hollywood celebrating them? And I guess the general gist of the piece is that we've got a lot of very interesting actors of color in Australia and from different backgrounds

who are out there doing really big things, they're out in Hollywood movies and in huge franchises and massive grossing things and just no one in the Australian media seems to talk about them much. One of the examples that you saw that right off the bat is James Juan who I think I knew him starting off from the Saw series when he directed the first Saw movie, which seems like it was a long time ago now. I think it was. It was quite a long time ago. It has done six million Saw movies since then, haven't they?

Yeah, unfortunately. I've read the Wikipedia synopses for all of them instead of watching them. The middle ones are such a drag. I'm always comparing the the the the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first the first. I the first. I the first.................................................................................. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the I've read the Wikipedia synopses for all of them instead of watching them. The middle ones is such a drag. I'm always comparing the saw series to the Hellraiser series, because the first couple are kind of interesting and have a bit of a mythos or whatever, and then all the ones in the middle, they've clearly just bought the script for like a middling seven knockoff and then said, put jigsaw in for a scene at the end. Oh, it's got Hellraiser disease.

Yep, bad case hell raise a disease. 2004, which when you think about it, quite a while. It's a while. Quite a while ago, but he's, apart from establishing that, which I think is, I don't know, besides maybe like final destination, is that kind of the 2000s horror franchise? I think so, I think saw was huge. Like the rest of them are terrible, but the first movie was, it was incredible at the

time. I feel like, like, saw, um, the paranormal activity ones. And... Blair Witch Project. Yes. the paranormal activity ones and Blair Witch project. Yeah, there were like three of those right? Definitely. No, they did. Has anyone ever seen the sequel to the Blair Witch?

Oh boy, howdy? Have I? It's not good. Now we. I don't know who chose to follow up like revolutionizing found footage with that movie. Extremely bad. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in a cinema than watching the second Blay Witch movie. But yeah, so I think, you know, that's obviously a massive franchise that he established.

He's gone on to work on I think pretty much all the biggest entries in the Fast and the Furious franchise. Oh wow. Yeah he directed, I'm pretty sure he's directed like the last however many of those. Does anyone know? Anybody know off the top of their head? I didn't really think those movies were directed so much as just... It just assembled. They just happened. You get like a bunch of really huge muscular men in cars into some exotic areas and then the movies just kind of come together.

He did Furious 7, which is one of the better ones to my mind. Yes, he did the Conjuring. I like the Conjuring was good and I hate horror movies. Oh, that was good, good spooky movie. Um, all kinds of stuff. But uh, that kind of blew up in itself, didn't it? It tie with the Conjuring 2 and then the Nunn and all of that. And Annabelle and Annabelle creation. Also in the Conjuring Universe?

I believe so. Wow. Is it a prequel? Yeah. I think so? Yeah. We didn't have managed to just blast anything out of that. But that series definitely seems to be a bit of a diminishing returns, ki. And with a lot of those, obviously, the more sequels they do, the further out of the hands of their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a, and.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. the the the. their, their, their, their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their with a lot of those, obviously, the more sequels they do, the further out of the hands of the original directors and writers they go as well. You also did Death

Sends, which was that Kevin Bacon, like, it was a, like, revenge, a thriller type thing, but I think it was made out of the same source material that Death Wish was made from. So it was like based on the same novel as Death Sends. Kevin Bacon looking really sad. Shaving his head, killing thugs. Just, uh, they're coming up on, uh, well they will soon be commencing work on the eighth movie in the conjuring universe as the Wikipedia article calls it. That's a lot. Wow. Wowzers. Wowzerinos. So when you think about it, like James once been pretty instrumental in like

three gigantic franchises that have turned over an absolute shitload of money, but as Debbie points out a piece, people don't really, uh, people don't really, uh, uh, that the thr-oh, that's, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's. that's, that's, that's. Hmm, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, wow, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thated over an absolute shitload of money. But as Debbie points out in the piece, people don't really talk about James won the same way they talk about like Peter Wea or Baz Lerman or other people for their sort of significance in the movie industry. Are there any other people from the piece, Debbie that, Debbie, that were sort of, do you think, are missing out on a lot of attention? Yeah, so I mean, James Wenny is the big one because he, you know, obviously as you said, set up these franchises.

But you know, we have also people who are coming up as well, who maybe aren't as established as James Wayne, but the thing is, is you know like actors like Chris Payne Remy He Ronnie Shane who were in Crazy Rich Asians which was a really big film that kind of took the world by storm last year and they are Australian so the thing is you know why aren't we talking about them the way we're talking about people like Margo Robbie so when they're the the thing is, you know, why aren't we talking about them, the way we're talking about people like Margot Robbie. So when Margo Robbie had her first break in Hollywood, it was this massive thing. So I think there is a comparison to be made between the way that we talk about even rising stars as well as

established creatives like James Run. So. Yeah, I think there are definitely, like I can really imagine a lot of people sort of defending this idea by saying, oh, well, you know, Nicole Kidman's had a 30-year long career and, you know, Mel Gibson and other people, you know, they've been working for you know, 20 or 30 or 40 years or whatever. And that's why they have this really established reputation, except that like you're saying, the rising stars are treated differently as well.

And on the subject of Nicole, and that whole that whole weird convention in Australia of when we are particularly proud of somebody with people collectively refer them as Nicole Nicole Kidman except that it turns out if you if you run down that list you know there's a lot of people and I know that a lot of people out there are aware of this kind of stuff, but like a lot of the people on that list of very established mainstream, beloved Australian celebrities and movie stars aren't from Australia. Nickol Kiddman, born in New Zealand. Mr. Nicole Kidman, Keith Urban, born in New Zealand. They love him here, by the way. Everyone I meet says, do you like Keith Urban?

Really? It's bizarre. It's so weird. They love him. Oh, he went over there and got massive, didn't he? He's huge here. In Hawaii? Just in America in general.

Not Hawaii specifically. Sam Worthington, who is the most tradey-looking actor in Hollywood, born in Surrey in England. I'm not sure I even realized Mel Gibson, born in New York. Yeah, precious national treasure Sam Neal, born in the UK. So I always thought he was a Kiwi for some reason. Yeah, me too. I was checking to see and it sounds out to the UK. Islea Fisher, born in Oman. Sure. Wow, okay, sure, why not?

Yep. Guy Pierce from the UK. Naomi Watts, yeah, I've been in England. Hmm. Big old rusty crow of of course, born in New Zealand. Rude. And National Treasure and Bachelorette, Sophie Monk, born in London. Wow, got a real list going here, Andrew. And I'm sure we could keep going. But, of course, none of that is to say that any of the people that we're talking about are like less Australian if their family is from somewhere else or if they emigrated here

or anything. But it's very telling to see who is considered like an Australian actor and who is embraced by the industry. Yeah, this is like a weird thing for me reading Debbie's piece is like, I genuinely thought for so long because I'd read about James Wan directing Saw that because we never talked about him he must have been one of these Australians that was like born in a different country like Nicole Kidman right because it's bizarre that we never talk about him. Yeah and I think like definitely with saw you know like the film people really knew he was Australian.

I had seen some pieces come out or people talking about, you know, oh we already knew about him all along and now we're only starting to talk about him. But the thing is I think with the wider general Australian public knowing that he's actually Australian, I think that's a very different like there's a distinction there with the awareness. Yeah. Well he's, I'm pretty sure that Lee Wanell, who was in the original Saw movie, he was the guy who was chained up in the room with Carrie Elwiz, and he was like the co-writer for the movie I think? With James? Yeah, that sounds right.

Yeah, and I would argue that like he has gone on to be a more like publicly visible Australian in the entertainment industry than James went, despite, you know, sort of having sort of smaller parts in things. Yeah, those parts like in the conjuring movies with Angus Samson Was it? So you know he he pops up and stuff here or there and I'm I'm sure that like way more people Could tell you that he's Australian or would identify him as Australian despite having I guess way way less of a hand in very big influential movies.

And, you know, you do sort of talk about, like we're saying four, like, Margot Robbie had a couple of parts in things in big movies, and then it was like, all right, this is the new Australian film's darling. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and like, you know, it's just, like we said, it's just very telling to see who is considered by the Australian media to be like a quintessentially Australian actor. And in her case, it's, you know, obviously because she's very conventionally attractive and white and blunt, which fits, which fits like, I think what? Well, at this point it's like a really outdated Australian stereotype? Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's outdated, but you know, people still buy into it.

And it's still predominantly what we see in our media. You know what I mean? Like not only in our media, but also on our screens. So, you know what I mean? Like not only in our media but also on our screens. So, you know, we have an issue like not only, you know, what we read and stuff but also what we watch on broadcast TV, you know, it's predominantly still wearing why. I think, you know, like Isabella Kwi wrote this great piece in the New York Times that was about why Asian Australians, you know, who are born here and want-to-be actors kind of need to look overseas for roles and opportunities. And so, you know, what we're seeing as the Australian in the media, like

generally across entertainment, you know, newspapers, etc. is predominantly that image, like you were talking about that outdated image of what an Australian looks like. It's like it's one version. It's like, th, th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and thi, and, and, and thi, and th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to thi, thi, thi, thi, they, they, thi predominantly that image, like you were talking about that outdated image of what an Australian looks like. It's one version of what an Australian looks like. So, yeah, I think it's a problem that kind of is everywhere. It's not just within, you know, how we talk about stars. And, I mean, that's why it's still so prevalent and this issue is it is quite a structural issue rather than just what it looks like right? Well I think I think yeah the sort of flip side to that in terms of being a structural issue like you're saying actors need to look to other markets to get roles that they aren't being offered here.

And I think part of that that I've definitely seen discussed before is like, like something that was good in crazy rich Asians was seeing like a cast of male, sorry like all of the lead male actors were very clearly just like handsome masculine dudes like it's a romantic comedy you know it's it's pretty I guess it's like you know at its core it is a romantic comedy and is and is relatively like light material in that sense you can just say you liked it Andrew you can say you enjoyed looking at them or handsome men in that sense. You can just say you liked it Andrew. You can say you enjoyed looking at them. They're handsome men in that film. Well that's exactly what I'm talking about. There are handsome

dudes in that film and there are like shots of them with their shirts off, look at Musley and like some very deliberately framed lighting on abs and stuff like that. And to me, that kind of really, like that really draws a contrast to, you know, some of the other movies that we're talking about where I think a lot of the times the typecast roles that like Asian men are offered are like emasculated in comparison to like the Western Leeds. And yeah, I think you, as soon as you're watching cinema from outside of, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th., th., th., th., th, theastern, theastern, thi, theastern, the other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other movies, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, th., th., th., th., th., th., th., th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the movies, the movies, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, think you, as soon as you're watching cinema from outside of Australia or outside of like very mainstream American movies, that contrast is like really apparent. 100%.

I mean, even as a film in America, I mean, that was a really big deal because, I mean, it was the first film that was, I think, funded by a major, first or American cast in 25 years since the Joyluck Club to... I was going to ask what the last one was. Yeah, that was Joyler Club. Okay. That was a long time ago. Indeed. And so I think that's why it was such a big deal and and what your observation is like really good because yeah it's true like we never really see Asian men as being quote unquote attractive in in films like this and I think the way that John Chu directed this film was deliberately, you know, unashamedly showing Asian men as being attractive

and that is definitely a big part of the Rumcon genre. So I, I think in a lot of ways that film broke a lot of ground, you know, not just for Hollywood studio to make that much money, as a racially diverse cast, but a lot of the audiences responded to that. And so I think those, that correlation really, yeah, it was kind of a really major step in stone in what Hollywood's being green lighting over the last year or two, I think. Yeah, and I suppose it's also interesting to see like, you know, Netflix as a content producer, for example, for example, the the thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th..... th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the their their their their their, you, you thi, you their, you their, you their, you, you, you their, you, you their, you, you, you their, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, their their their their their their their th two, I think. Yeah, and I suppose it's also interesting to see, like, you know, Netflix as a content producer, for example.

When you read the figures on like the amount of money that they're sinking into producing new content, like new TV shows and movies and everything, it's pretty, it's pretty staggering, it's pretty mind-boggling. But it also means that they can just like be a lot more adventurous and try out a lot more stuff. And I think that they can see areas of success that much more sort of risk-averse studios, like traditional studios, wouldn't. And I guess what you've just touched on there is sort of interesting to me as well, because

there's a quote in the article. Jesus. It's going to make a note to edit out the rustling in the fridge that's happening over here. So there's a quote from the article where you were saying, a 2018 study study by UCLA found a growing and direct correlation, correlation between top-grossing films and diverse casts with the most racially and ethnically homogenous casts in the study performing poorest on average of the box office. By neglecting Asian Australian stories, the Australian media may not just be failing any ethical

obligations for diversity, they may like Hollywood be missing out on a huge potential audience too. And, you know, obviously that's a very interesting thing in the first place just to see that, you know, the changing demographics of countries mean that people are going to be more likely to be drawn to, you know, things where they're more likely to see someone who looks like them on the screen. And you know, I'm pretty sure I've talked about this before, but like, I find it endlessly hilarious to see people like losing their minds about Marvel doing like a Thor movie where

there's like an Asian Viking and a Black Viking and people. People get super mad about it. And I'm like so you're fine with like the elves and the lasers and the spaces the spaceships and everything you know it's pretty clear that Marvel's Thor is not intended as a faithful adaptation of Norse mythology. It's like it's thaw from the comic books as he has been for the last you know 50 or 60 or 70 years or whatever. But it is very funny to see people's people's reactions. The outrage.

Oh, people get so mad about it and it's great. I genuinely love it. And I don't know how people can't just stop themselves and take a step back and go, oh yeah, it's the space-fliking movie from the comic book people. He's hanging out with the Hulk. He's hanging out with the Hulk. But yeah, this stuff for me kind of gets back into that territory of like, um, it always makes me think of a tweet by someone on Twitter at Nega Versace. You know, is pop star a feminist? Is Mastercard a queer ally? Is this TV show my friend? So like I'm always kind of torn with the discussion

of like representation politics in media, because on one hand I always sort of say to myself like, yeah, how much are we supposed to be like patting Marvel on the back for making, you know, for like immediately making the money back on their multi-billion dollar investments of buying Star Wars and Marvel and stuff like that. But also, obviously, I think it is good that people can go to the movies and see people like them on the screen. Or in the case of Crazy Rich Asians, a part of that that I thought was really good was that I guess unlike a lot of Western Romcoms, the sort of core thread of the story was around,

I guess, something that's a much more innately Asian cultural experience of how their family was interacting with people. And, yeah, just being accepted into a family and status and all that sort of stuff. Like, all that stuff struck me as being much more kind of like drawing out an experience that is very relevant to Asian culture as opposed to just doing a romcom with an Asian cast, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean, I do get what you mean, but I also do think that Crazy Machinations in a way was this, you know, it was ultimately just a romcom in a lot of ways and it never really kind of pushed the whole cultural angle in a way that was, that felt like it was just there for, you know, show.

It was just very much better than the story. It's just an enjoyable romcom, in my opinion, you know, it uses those cultural, um, if there's their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the story. It's just an enjoyable romcom, in my opinion. You know, it uses those cultural, if there's any cultural conflicts and between the mother and the daughter-in-law, the future daughter-in-law. I mean, those are conflicts that happen outside, you know, Chinese culture as well. So I think, you know, why crazy rich Asians did so well globally isn't just

the fact that, you know, more, you know, more people saw themselves on screen and so people bought more tickets. I mean, that was one factor, but I think generally people who weren't, you know, Asian necessarily, love to just watch a really enjoyable romcom where they don't see people like them on screen as well. You know, like just like I've been, you know, watching predominantly white films, if I'm watching Western films, they tend to be predominantly white films for, yeah, for 10 years, right? So that's my, and I thought that I, it decreases my level of enjoyment because the people on screen don't look like me. Of course, if they do look like me, then yeah, perhaps there's a little bit more of a connection there. But, you know, I think movies are inherently about empathy.

That's just, you know, the basic nutshell of a film. And so if it can connect with you, then, you know, it goes across cultures. And I think, crazy rich Asians in thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th is, th is, th is, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's thi, it's the, it's the, it's thate is thateate is thateateat, it's thateat, it's not that, it's that, it's the, it's then you know it goes across cultures and I think trades of rich Asians in that sense as a romantic comedy did that you know it is just a really refreshing fun romantic comedy so yeah I agree and that it was just an enjoyable film and like there's definitely a noticeable, I think there's kind of a noticeable other thread of, like, I guess, representation stuff in cinema, which is, I feel like there has been,

or is currently a crop of movies coming out, which are, like, you know, the whole, the entire thing around the Ghostbusters reboot. or remake, I agree. I agree. I, th, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I th, I th, I the, I the, I the, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th, I thi, I th, I the, I th, I there, I there, I there, I there, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I the, I thi, think, think, thin, think, think, the, thi, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I th, you know the whole, the entire thing around the Ghostbusters reboot or remake or whatever it was, where they did Ghostbusters again with a female cast, and once again, a whole bunch of people lost their minds and went absolutely crazy about it. And you compare that to the way they responded to Jason Leibens,

new Ghostbusters film, you know, returning it back into the hands of Ghostbusters. And so I, uh, ghost, yeah, ghostbusters. Just, just the same show, I got the title, right? Yeah, so, I mean, the, and just silence from them, you know, people just feel very Everything's back to normal. Yeah, it's all okay now, you know There's there's also like, like I watched Oceans 8 the other day which is Oceans 11 with women and and there's also this this new movie coming out called, um, oh, what's it called? Uh, what's it called? Uh, what's it? Uh, what's it? Uh, the, th? Uh, th? Everything, th? Everything, th? Everything, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, everything's th, everything's back, everything's back, uh, uh, uh, uh, everything's back, everything's back, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, everything's, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, everything? to, everything? Everything, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, thi's thi, thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi and there's also this new movie coming out called oh what's it called like the Hustle or something and it's and it's Anne Hathaway and Rebel Wilson essentially doing a remake of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

and I and I feel like when I see that stuff obviously like I said I'm you know half the time I've watched the movies and they're fine or whatever but as far as they're they're the the their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. they. they. the they. they. the the they. the they. the the the the the the the the said, I, you know, half the time I've watched the movies and they're fine or whatever, but as far as how they come to be, that always seems to me much more transparently driven by the studio saying, let's do this movie that's already like a successfully known quantity, but with ladies. Like it seems way more driven by the studio saying, we think in a calculated way that this specific thing will be profitable. As opposed to crazy rich agents, which is obviously just, like we're saying, a good film unto itself. Yeah, and you're right, I think, you know, diversity is perhaps seen as a trend now by a lot of these studios who kind of seeing, oh, look, look, look, like, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're th, we're th, we're think, we're think, we're th, we're th, we're think, we're think, we're think, we're think, we think, I think, you know, diversity is perhaps seen as a trend now by a lot of

these studios who kind of are seeing, oh, look, like it translates into profits and money, which is always a thing that they like. But the, you know, I think you're right, I mean, I haven't seen Oceans 8, but, you know, I've heard criticisms from female critics and stuff like that who didn't enjoy it and thought it was just, you know, literally just a remake and there was nothing new. So I think with like a lot of this stuff with female rebooting and like all of the films that are coming out because of it, we need to see more fresh takes on films, you know, and if you're going to do a reboot, then, you know, who are your cast and who are your crew? Because I think Oceans 8 was directed by a man still,

you know, and I think we need to talk about, you know, not only like who's in front of the camera, but also who's behind the camera, because I think that can also make a difference with how the film is, is revisioned, you know, th.......... th. th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. to, to, to, to, thi. thi. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, the camera, because I think that can also make a difference with how the film is revisioned now. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we can't just be talking about, you know, total face value because, yeah, you're right. With a lot of those films that are having female reboots, it is kind of a face value theme a lot of the time.

Well, Oceans 8 really struck me as being like, they essentially just slotted like Sandra Bullock into the George Clooney role. She was like his sister or something. And they slotted Kate Blanchett into the Brad Pitt roll. And like it was just very clear that the way that the dialogue was written and delivered and all that sort of stuff they were just essentially subbing in for those characters with the same temperament and the same you know vocal delivery and all that sort of stuff so just yeah it had far more of a feeling of we're going to make another one of these movies and we will just insert women into the roles that we had locked out for men beforehand.

You know? It proves that it's profitable though, you know, that's the flip side of it. It proves profitable but also we shouldn't just be like that shouldn't be the solution. Do you know what I mean? Like we should be looking at you know how to make a film good and you know if we're going to do at Ocean's 8, why can't we have these, you, you these these these these these these these the the the their their their their their their their, you their, you their, you their, you their and you know if we're going to do an oceans eight why can't we have you know these women who are made like the amazing cast you know they so what a cast you know people just buy the ticket for them like what have we have them in a new film their own franchise why do we need to have them already defined in this you know franchise that has been mael dominated already so I mean I can see the reasoning the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their is is is is their is their is their is their their their their their their their their. is is their. their. their. their. I is their. I is their. I is their. I is the the the the. I is theean. I can't is. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I'm. I'm. th. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I So, I mean, I can see the reasoning behind it,

and there is obviously a big marketing campaign and stuff that works out because of it, but I think, yeah, it's not the solution, I don't think, unless, unless it's done in a way that is new, that genuinely, like, in a new way. So it's actually subverting the expectations or the existing model or anything. Yeah, it's like they're doing it in a way that they think is the most palatable to people. But I don't think that's the case.

I think people are ready to see completely new, diverse films. And it's just these movie studios that are like, hey, what if we just do the same the same the same the same th th th th th th th th th th th th th is just just just just just just just just just just just just just the thus thus thus thus thus thus that is just that is just thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the is the the theat theat the the the theat theat theat theat theat that's thi. that's thi. thi what if we just do the same movie but with ladies or black people? Yeah, and I think like, there's definitely examples of, like a lot of good recent examples of movies where, you know, they've turned over the reins of some massive property to a female director and it's done way better than the other movies in the same series by male directors. I mean like you know DC's Wonder Woman was was like the big standout hit of that series and what I can't remember the director's name all of a sudden. Oh Patty Jenkins. Thank you. Did you know Lucy? I did not I did not know I was taking the opportunity to shame me.

Just get in there. Wow. This son of a bitch right here. But yeah, like that and that was, you know, that was obviously something where she was able to bring something to an entry in that series. Yeah. That the men who were directing the other ones didn't. And people seemed extremely caught by surprise about it. And it seems to happen over and over again. Women can direct action? What? You know? Is it worse? But um, yeah, so, yeah, so, uh, you know, the, the other, uh, the other, uh, the other, uh, the other, uh, the, the other aspect of all of the representation stuff is, as you sort of note in the article, it is just a more accurate reflection of the society that we live in anyway. Yeah.

As you've got here, the 2016 census found that for the first time more Australians were born overseas, more Australians born overseas come from Asia than from Europe. So you know, we have had a very shifting demographic landscape for a long time, and I think it's a very similar thing in the states where they're, where they're, yeah, like the proportion of the populace that is, that white has been gradually reducing over time. When are they, I'm trying to remember when they're projecting that it's finally going to sort of go below 50% for white people over there. I think they're like white genocide people say it's very soon. Then they can really claim that minority status.

But I guess as far as like, you know, Australian media, I guess the question is why does the Australian media prioritize particular actors and directors and their careers over other people? In your piece in the Guardian, you ask, is it another symptom of our under-resourced outlets? Is it because the audiences tend not to identify non-white immigrant Australians as our own? Or is it the fault of primarily white media institutions that overlook them, consciously or otherwise?

Yeah, I think, like we said, even the fact that, Margo Robbie would be considered like, now that's what an Australian looks like. An Australian looks like Lady Paul Hogan. Blonde and tanned and everything. Yeah, did you have any, did you kind of settle in any particular direction with that, Demi? I think it's really hard to pinpoint one reason why, you know, why there's this inherent way of the media not looking at and not recognizing or celebrating these stars, which is why I kind of

I listed them out because I think there's a lot of different reasons, you know, because on one hand we have the whole editorial aspects of, you know, they are less spaces to talk about them, but you know, with the spaces we have, we still aren't talking about them. And so yeah, definitely the use of the word owl, you know, or claiming them at least as Australian. So, you know, I used this example in my guardian piece, butardine was rather than she's an Indian, a Swiss, Australian, born in Newcastle, and she's, you know, only 23 and she's gone off to America and done amazing things.

She broke out in a comedy role called Blockers, and she was, you know, hailed as, at the breakup star of that film. And I watched that film having no clue she was, you know, hailed as the breakup star of that film. And I watched that film having no clue she was Australian, but she was, her American actacit is amazing, and she was so funny, she has amazing comedy chops. And it's so not a surprise that she's got a new role with Daniel Radcliffe and Steve Biscami in miracle workers as well. So you know, she's gone off and done these amazing things and yet, you know, Australia hasn't

really gotten to the point of claiming her yet. And there's definitely that issue of, as you said, you know, who is the typical Australian and did the media recognize them and celebrate them. And when they overlook people who are really obviously there, you know, like as you said, James Wayne and also praise the rich Asians, and then Geraldine as well, there's a pattern there that I think is really hard to ignore and the pattern is that these people are, Australian people of color and they may not just look like what traditional white Australia looks like. So...

Well, I didn't know until like an hour ago. I didn't realize that Ronnie Cheng is on the Daily Show. Yeah. I've never seen that mentioned. Yeah. He's doing like loads of stuff in America. Yeah. Yeah. Australia wasn't particularly generous to him in terms of like big roles. And now he's like, he of the senior correspondence on the Daily Show like it's which it arguably are way more competitive market as well over in the states. Yeah and traditionally I think having having a significant part on the Daily Show like invariably winds up to a bunch of like leads to a bunch of high-profile work. He does have a new series on the ABC though, Ronnie Cheng International Student. Is that new? Is it new? I think it's not, I think it's new in Australia. I feel like I've seen it on American TV before then.

Really? Yeah. I could be it was... I definitely saw it advertised here before I saw it in Australia. Well it's got a second season. So you know... 2017, middle of 2017. It's new-ish. You're right. I'm being pedantic. But again it's not like anyone's been kicking down my door telling me about it. Yeah. But yeah I think like something that to me was pretty illustrative that happened, I guess. It's impossible to know because everything happens so fast and so much these days, several weeks ago, I'm going to say, which was something that we haven't touched on on the show before. The whole crazy furor around Carrie Ann Kennelly on her

stupid morning show making some pretty clearly racist comments and then being mildly criticized by a co-host by a co-panelist and to me like that was that I think kind of dovetails pretty nicely as like an illustrative case of who the Australian media landscape considers like an important figure to protect. Yes. So for anyone who's not across that one, as I would expect anybody outside of Australia wouldn't and shouldn't be. Carrie Ann Kenley is a lady who is 10 million years old and has been on Australian TV for

9 million years and she does so she does some morning panel show. I believe it is like by a very long stretch the lowest rated daytime TV panel show, Studio 10, it's got Joe Hilda brand on it and everything. And Carrie Annankely was making some comments about all of the people who came out to demonstrate on Australia Day saying that the date should be changed and it's a celebration of genocide and all that kind of thing and she was making some pretty misguided comments about what have any of these people done about going out to remote aboriginal communities and stopping them from abusing their wives and hitting their children this kind of thing.

And so a co-panelist on the show, Yumi Steins, who is half Japanese, said, you sound pretty racist right now and the entire studio audience went, oh! And everybody immediately went, oh! And leapt to the defense of Kerry and Kennelly, and it became a national debate for like several days. And the entire thing of course was framed in the, the entire thing was framed as, why did this lady attack Carrie Ann Kennelly? She was attacked.

And yeah, to me I really sort of read that whole thing as like, yeah, interesting, like Yumi Stein's has, I don't know, I guess I would consider her to have the level of profile that someone who's on the radio and occasionally on TV has. She had a lot more attention when she criticized a prominent white lady. Like all of a sudden she had way more of a profile and the news following her around every day. So, you know, in this particular context, she was apparently much more worthy of negative attention than positive attention. And everybody was far, far, far, far, far, more was apparently much more worthy of negative attention than positive attention and everybody was far, far, far more willing to give Carrie Ann Kennelly

the white blonde lady the benefit of the doubt in this situation. And I think it was pretty telling. Kind of gives a clear picture of how the Australian media really struggles with talking about like racial issues and bigotry and everything in any kind of public space. And how it was still preserved, do their best to preserve the white woman who's obviously done the TV presenting thing for ages. But it's also quite telling as well because isn't it funny that the woman who caught out racism is being attacked more than the woman who was racist or was speaking in a very, yeah, she was... Extremely racially loaded way. Yeah.

And, you know, the abuse that Umy Steins has felt from that, you know, going on her Twitter or her Instagram, you can see the effects, she's described the effects of that. And I think it's pretty shocking, you know, because I think, I mean, when I just like followed up on this situation, I just was quite shocked at how divided everyone was about it, because for me it was so obviously racist and it should have been caught out. And the first thing that Kerryan responded was, I'm offended. You know, the first thing that she said was like her immediate response, she wasn't like why or she didn't listen or she didn't ask questions.

It was immediately for her an offense. And so I think there was just no dialogue that was ever going to happen between the two and even just carry out in general, there was never going to be any thoughtful discussion about it. But she actually was more offended by being caught racist than, you know. Well yeah, it's more offensive to have somebody suggest that the thing you're saying is a bit racist than it is to say very openly racist things on national TV. And like you're saying, as far as preserving the status quo, I mean,

I think that's the part of it as well that's kind of staggering to me, like I think Australian media and cultural commentary and all that sort of stuff, While there is some fresh stuff out there, by and large, it seems like such a stagnant landscape. Like, I feel like so many of the people who are on TV now were on TV when I was a kid, and they were on TV when my parents were kids. Like, yeah, even if it's not the same people, it's the same makeup. It's like two white ladies, when I was a kid, and they were on TV when my parents were kids. Like... Yeah, even if it's not the same people, it's the same makeup. It's like two white ladies and two white guys on breakfast television.

It hasn't changed at all. Well, I feel like, yeah, like the people that they still trot out for stuff like the Logies, you know, Bert Reynolds, not Bert Nutton, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, like, and, like, and, like, and, like, like, and, and, like, like, and, like, like, like, like, like, and, like, and, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, Bert Reynolds and, not Bert Reynolds, sorry. Bert Reynolds? By the way. Bert Newton and, and like Kerry Ann Kenley and stuff, that these people were legitimately celebrities like when my parents were young and they're still on there now, like the extent to which Australia goes to preserve the status of people who I don't actually understand, like, do people that, like, the, like, the, the, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, the preserve the status of people who I don't actually understand like do people think that like anybody young is getting on board with this do they think that they're like growing their audience or is it like so many other parts of Australian media where they're just and politics as well

where they're just desperate to hold on to this shrinking core of like a kind of rapidly dwindling old version of Australia. Because TV is just for boomers now, right? Like, most of us don't watch television. And so they just keep the same old people on there. They keep showing boomers what they want to see because no one else is watching. Because we're all watching Netflix. Because we're all terrible millennials-inininininin. the the the the the the the the the the the other. the other. the other. the other the other. the other. the other the other the the the the the the their. their th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. I's thi. I's thi. And th. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's is th. It's is th. It's is th. It's th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th we're all terrible millennials, right? Well I mean, you know, on the other side of that, I think a lot of people, R.H. are also

watching things like the stuff that the ABC and the SPS are putting out. And that stuff tends to be far more diverse and have much younger people in it, like, you know, is it SBS that has like the fresh meat thing? Or was that the ABC? That's ABC. Yeah, well, you know, and I think Ronnie Cheng's series came out of one of those pilot things, or they sort of do a round of pilots and choose a couple of them based on how they go. Yeah, and and a lot of that stuff that's coming out of those. of, of of, of of, of of, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th couple of them based on how they go. Benjamin or not. And a lot of that stuff that's coming out of those stations and being successful, I think in part is also driven by the fact that they actually have, like, you know, they've actually set up infrastructure for their streaming platforms.

Because the broadcast TV channels in Australia, their streaming platforms are fucking garbage. It's so terrible. They like, they genuinely are barely functional. Which is obviously, again, just a sign of like, you know, waiting so long to try to adapt to the change in the market. That you eventually end up with, you know, a crippled TV station and a terrible streaming platform. But speaking of fresh and up and coming voices in media, nice segue there, am I right? So Debbie, Debbie is the managing editor for a new film criticism

site called Rough Cut. Indeed. And how's that going? You guys only launched like in the last couple of weeks, I think? Yeah, I think two weeks ago, yeah from today. Yeah, no, so I was part of the Melbourne Film Festival's Critics campus last year, which happened about August. And I met this really great group of film critics, you know, emerging film critics who want to talk and write in different ways about film. And so we kind of put our efforts together and came up with this publication, which is, you know, our goal is to write about, you know, films in the Australian landscape,

but also to shift and hopefully change the way that we talk about films. So we have quite a midst media approach, you know, so now, you know, with podcasts a big thing. So we have also video essays and reviews and features that are written, I guess, in a more, I mean, they are written in the traditional sense, but some, you know, explore different ways of tackling like particular angles on film. And so, yeah, I think, you know, that's what the Australian film landscape has kind of been missing in terms of criticism over the last few years. I mean, we've had 4-3, which was an awesome Sydney publication that really kind of tried

to cover as much of Australian stuff and what was happening now with releases and retrospectives and festivals but I think you know people want to hear, hopefully want to hear from a wider range of voices, people who are great at making video essays, you know, one of our critics, Ivana Brias, you know, she's, you know, even in high school, she made a go and girl video essay that kind of blew up virally. She compared it to I think Greek mythology and it was featured on, you know, like indie wire and sight and sound and stuff like that. And so she, she's very talented in those respects as well as writing as well. So, you know, hopefully it can be a

platform for people to explore and challenge and test out the waters of what criticism can be because I guess the way that young people are reading media is completely different now than it was before, you know, before it was all newspapers and traditional media, but now, you know, it's all shifted online and there's so much content and so how do you kind of absorb it and like where do you go and look and who do you read is our questions, you know, that are quite prevalent, I think. So hopefully we'll add to the conversation somehow. Yeah, so that's that was basically the why we started in the first place.

Yeah, I think like you're saying, there are so many different forms of criticism and dissection of film and everything now that people do really have such a diversity of choice in what kind of content they would like to, or like how they would like to see things broken down and approached and all that sort of stuff. Which is really good, I mean, yeah, I think of like saying when you used to just see reviews in the paper and someone obviously has 200 words to say whether or not you should go and like spend $15 on this thing or whatever. But yeah, now you can get, you know, you can sort of see whether or not you would like, you would like reviews that are, yeah, this thing was fun or whether you would like

a more sort of thorough examination of the the film, how it's made and all that kind of thing. I, I really like the video essay on there there, about there, about there, about the the th th th th th th th th th, like th, th, like, like, th, th, like, th, like, th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, th, like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, thi.i.i.ea, thi.i.i. thi. thi. thi, thi. more sort of thorough examination of the themes of the film, how it's made and all that kind of thing. I really like the video essay on there about Mikey and Nikki, which was quite interesting and nicely done. What have you been reviewing on there lately? Any good picks for us? Any recommendations? Yeah, so I mean a piece just came out like tonight. I wrote on Votts, which comes out in cinemas today? their their th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A th. A thii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeea thea thea thea thea. I thea'a'ea'ea. I th came out like tonight. I wrote on Vots Lutz which comes out in cinemas today. It's the new Natalie Portman being like the rise of a pop star film. And yet the film is completely not about that as well. So when I went and saw it, you know, the first scene kind of grips you, it feels like a complete, it feels like a sequence that doesn't belong in the film that you

expect in to see. So, you know, you think it's gonna be perhaps a star's born, you know, that type of feeling of, oh, feel good, pop music and and the troubles of what it is to be a pop star. But I think the film ends up turning thea th, th, th, th, you th, you th, th, you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, thi, you thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the the th, the the the the th, the th, the the th, th, th, th, th, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thibles of what it is to be a pop star. But I think the film ends up turning into this critique and this really eerie, strange, disturbing look at how we consume modern celebrity culture and how celebrity image becomes very twisted from the person it originates from. So I think the film that hasn't been talked about enough. It mean it premiered at the Venice Film Festival last year, but just after that it seemed to have disappeared. Which I'm really surprised, I was really surprised about actually when I came out of that film because I was like, why isn't anyone talking about it? And Natalie Portman is incredible in it. I mean, she's great all all the time, but she completely shifts in this role, like like she th. Like, like, like, like, like, like th. th. thi, like thi, like thi, like thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, the thi, the the thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, the their, their, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thean, thi. thean, their, their, their, their, their, the great all the time but she completely shifts in this role like

she did in Jackie a few years ago. So I, she's probably one of the best performances I've seen this and last year with along with Olivia Coleman and the favorite. So, you know, I find it really quite shocking that this film has, you know, disappeared. But I hope people go and see it because it's not what you expect at all. Excellent. Well, now that we've managed to trick you into being here for this long, Ben would like to pitch a review for the website. I understand that he has seen a movie recently. Sure. And he would like to talk for the website. I understand that he has seen a movie recently and he would like to talk to the people about it.

Well I mean I just I really want an excuse to say this in a medium where people can hear it but Aquaman fucking ruled that was one of the few good superhero movies I've seen that I came out of the cinema fucking being like I had so much god damn fun. That movie kicks us and I feel like I like, I had so much, god damn fun. That movie kicks us, and I feel like I didn't talk to anyone that actually saw it, despite it being, as you mentioned the article, it was like, DC's highest grossing movie so far.

Yeah. Also, okay, I mean, I haven't seen it. So I'm part of responsible, not responsible for that too. Yeah, clearly enough people have seen it to'm like part of responsible, not responsible for that too, but yeah, clearly enough people have seen it to give it money. I don't, yeah, I've not met other people to have, this is the part that's excused me, but this is a solid recommendation, every single person is in the podcast. There are two good superhero movies, they are Thor Ragnarok, and they are Aquaman, a movie that takes itself so seriously about

being so ridiculous that it isn't perfect. It is the perfect tonal mix. It's like everything you get from watching Highlander, where the concept is insane, but everyone wholeheartedly embraces it. It's that. It's so good. It's so good. There is four points of the film where It's totally straight. That's the way to do it. There is four points in

the film where people say the words Ocean Master, referring to some sort of title that they never fully explain. And those four times are funnier than anything intentionally funny I have seen in a comedy film in the last 10 years. And it just because it's a ridiculous concept and the actors don't shy away from it, they don't mug at the camera, they just do it. There are people riding sharks, there are people riding giant seahorses. I've heard there's an octopus or drums. There is, oh my god. That's the one thing I know about that film. So that ten seconds where they show the octopus, they have the two best jokes of the movie

back to back and they give it half a second each. So there's like this weird sight gag either immediately before or after that where it's like the Lord of the Sea Realm or whatever fighting Jason Mamoa. They show an octopus playing the fucking drums and then for like half a second, like so quick you can't even read it, they show that there's this billboard up at this giant baroque underwater medieval death coloic with lava in it. They've got this little billboard up that has a pros and cons list of who should be the leader of the underwater kingdom. Like obviously the existing rulers like handsome, strong, very good, whatever. And then all of the Jason Mobile stuff is like terrible, shouldn't do it, the guy sucks. Like, they don't linger on it. They're not smug about it. You know, they're not doing that like, because Marvel's whole tone is like, oh look, we're being silly about being a comic book movie.

Ah, we're not taking anything very seriously. And DC's problem has always been, they're trying to be very, very gritty to earn taking it seriously, whereas this is perfect because it doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, and yet they've done it. And I they've they've they've they've they've they've they've they've the problem it. And th, th, th, th, th, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thathea, that, that, that, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th.. th. th. that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, they're not, they're not, they're not, that, theeiiiii. And, thean, thean, thei. And, that, seriously and yet they've done it and I love that. The problem with that whole series seemed to be that they had the Christopher Nolan ones initially and then they said, done, the tone is set forever. And then they got Zach Snyder in and said, keep doing the watchman thing but with Batman versus Superman. And it just seems like the further away they get from that tone, the more successful they are. That's about all we got time for today.

Thank you very much for joining us, Debbie. You can find Debbie all over the internet. Find her at Twitter at Debbie underscore ZHOU. You can find Roughcut on Twitter at Roughcut Underscore Film and you can find a site where all the reviews and the essays and business are out at Roughcut Film.com. And of course from us, as always you can get an extra bonus episode every week if you would like by going over to Patreon.com forward slash BWinter Vista. Get an 8 credit card, bust and open your musty

ass wallet. Come on, when's the last time you crack that today? Send us a $5 bill, I would love that. When's the last time you opened your wallet? Is that the question that you're rhetorically asking the listeners? Yep. Probably today, I would assume would be true of most people. Maybe, maybe not. That's what we're here to find out. I don't think that's true either. Look at me in falsehoods. Hey, maybe somebody will be able to post us a $5 bill, because we're going to get a PO box so people can send us stupid stuff in the mail.

This is going to end horribly. Just the worst. Just a male bomb. Your optimism? Yeah, let's... We're going to see how it goes. We'll discuss it. We're going to get mailed like a dead rat within a month. That's my feeling. Well, now you've put the idea in someone's head.

Don't do that. Yeah, all right, yeah, fair enough. I use the secret to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the thoe, fair enough. I use the secret to make that happen. Put it up on your vision board. Nice picture of dead rat. Thank you again, Debbie, and thank you to you, playing at home or wherever you're listening to the thing, let's not get into the logistics of when and how you're listening to this.

Thanks everybody. And goodbye.